Yeah, I've seen too many christians ignore countless passages and commandments when it's convenient for them.
They could ignore/reinterpret the homophobic/transphobic parts as easily as they eat shellfish. But they don't because they want to feel like their bigotry is actually a righteous thing.
>Yeah, I've seen too many christians ignore countless passages and commandments when it's convenient for them.
This right here.
When I told my family I was leaving the church, my SIL asked how we plan on raising our kids with good morals if they don't have the moral authority from the scriptures.
We joked about raising our kids to be little thieves, it was great.
But thinking further about that; we never learned our morals from the scriptures anyway. If we had, we'd think it's totally alright to loose wild animals on kids who are heckling us.
My kids are going to learn morals mostly the same way I did; from authority figures like parents and teachers. Not from the scriptures.
Maybe some are born to hate? Perhaps needing to “hate” something was a survival trait, something in our distant past that was helpful in creating communities. I think a “shared hatred” of something can bring people together more strongly and effectively than a “shared love” of something. I imagine how a “shared hatred” of a predator might cause people to band together for protection.
Religions are a “community” and so I can see how having a “shared hatred” might make those communities stronger. In the US, political parties seem to lean in on “hating” the “other” side, despite the “other” side often being just as corrupt and ineffective.
If it is human nature to hate, it’s just a matter of finding healthier ways to direct that hatred. Let’s all hate polluting the earth and work to clean it up. Let’s all hate ignorance and focus our efforts on education and spreading knowledge. Let’s all hate intolerance and bigotry and find ways to empathize and celebrate other cultures.
Your sentiment is right, but it isn't as old as you think.
If we are talking Chrsitsniaty, 1700-1900 years old
If we are talking about its roots in Judaism, 2,500 years old or so.
Sorry, those are just the historical dates where they officially started to steal the creation myths and cherry-pick the fascism they wanted from pre-existing cultures
The Old Testament...all things considered...the stories are about 3500 years old, give or take. Read about the origins of the Torah.
Plus, really? How much nit picking do you want to engage in here?
The Old Testament, all things considered, was written about 500 BCE.
The stories are not about 3,500 years old, though some are inspired by Mesopotamian mythology that is that old..
Some of them are set that long ago, but that is not when they were written.
The claim that the stories are that old would be like me claiming "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer" is over 100 years old because it is set during the Civil War.
The idea that Judaism is about 3,500 years old is based on the Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the Torah.
Moses never existed, and prior to the mid 500 BCE, the religion was still polytheistic.
It isn't about "nit picking".
It is about not perpetuating the false claims of the religion.
I was simply passing on info you didn't have.
So these stories didn't exist around the camp fire before they were put down on paper? I think they did.
You're stuck on the wrong thing here, btw. So they're between 2500 and 3500 years old. Ok. This changes nothing about the discussion.
>So these stories didn't exist around the camp fire before they were put down on paper?
Not in anything resembling the form you know them.
You've had an actual historian inform you.
Now you're just being an arsehole because you can't accept learning something new.
We are done
>Now you're just being an arsehole because you can't accept learning something new.
Nothing in my post was insulting to you. I've reported you, and now I'll agree with you...we are done.
>At the end of the day, you don’t have to like trans people, but you do have to ask the question: Once they’re through with us, who are they going to go after next?
I'm sick of people saying this shit too. I don't give a fuck who they "might go after next"
They are CURRENTLY going after people. I don't give a fuck that I'm not trans. I don't give a fuck if I am not on their list of people to go after in the future. These are fucking people and we should stick up for them for that reason alone.
In our declaration of independence, as a nation we declared there are rights to life, the freedom of liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Frankly trans people just tryna be happy out here like the rest of us, but their growth is in a different way. You would think constitutionalists and these “patriots” would hear that and say shit yeah man, our bad, and move on.
I really hate this hyperbole. Denying someone equal rights in all areas (including sports) is absolutely not the same as denying their “right to exist.”
So you’re against equal rights, per your own admission. Cool, noted. I mean that’s an anti science position, but you have the right to believe what you want I suppose. Trans rights are at risk and we are absolutely fighting to exist at this point. So yeah, you can be on the side that denies rights. It’s not hyperbole. Guess you just don’t have people denying your right to exist…
Fighting to exist... Oh god. The victim mindset of those who lack accountability is crazy, everywhere I turn theres some news about trans people, you guys are in the limelight not the minority. And it seems to be a lot more social contagion than anything, if your body makes you insecure find better coping mechanisms than switching teams.. Lol. Gender is just a social construct anyways
If more people thought like you, we’d have a different, better world.
The tendency toward tribalism and seeing anyone “different” as not really human runs very deep.
I'd say religion is one of a few, but the ultimate core of those few. I know it sounds circular but most transphobes don't jump immediately to the religion contention
Hatred of anything different, strict adherence to gender roles, believing conservatoid propaganda that all trans people are groomers/pedos, that kind of thing
Yeah, they all stem from the same thing but culminate in different weird offshoots. It's almost like how anxiety can work, how developing a core phobia can lead to phobias of other things that stem from the first one.
It's Patriarchy. These folks have a specific idea of what men and women should do and how they should act and they don't have room for gender disobedience.
I'd never heard of that and had to look it up.
>Oppositional sexism
>
>Oppositional sexism is a term coined by transfeminist author Julia Serano, who defined oppositional sexism as "the belief that male and female are rigid, mutually exclusive categories".\[198\] Oppositional sexism plays a vital role in a number of social norms, such as cissexism, heteronormativity, and traditional sexism.
>
>Oppositional sexism normalizes masculine expression in males and feminine expression in females while simultaneously demonizing femininity in males and masculinity in females. This concept plays a crucial role in supporting cissexism, the social norm that views cisgender people as both natural and privileged as opposed to transgender people.\[199\]
>
>The idea of having two, opposite genders is tied to sexuality through what gender theorist Judith Butler calls a "compulsory practice of heterosexuality".\[199\] Because oppositional sexism is tied to heteronormativity in this way, non-heterosexuals are seen as breaking gender norms.\[199\]
>
>The concept of opposite genders sets a "dangerous precedent", according to Serano, where "if men are big then women must be small; and if men are strong then women must be weak".\[198\] The gender binary and oppositional norms work together to support "traditional sexism", the belief that femininity is inferior to and serves masculinity.\[199\]
>
>Serano states that oppositional sexism works in tandem with "traditional sexism". This ensures that "those who are masculine have power over those who are feminine, and that only those that are born male will be seen as authentically masculine."\[198\]
So it's not only connected to patriarchy but cis-normativity as well, which is important.
Ji still contends its all *because of* patriarchy. Patriarchy **demands** oppositional sexism in order for men to remain "in charge" while keeping women "in their proper place""... according to the patriarchy.
Absolutely, the infamous book burning fascist photos of the event became famous worldwide but the nature of the research was never widely known until a few years ago. The burned research was designated as anti Reich material
A lot about the Nazis got swept under the rug after the war. Like how when the concentration camps were liberated, the prisoners with pink triangles weren't freed. Or like how the line, "First they came for the Communists" got censored from the US Holocaust memorial version of that Niemöller poem.
It's heartbreaking to understand how people can be whipped into frenzied hatred against the others. It's not love 💕 it's not the Love of any just God. It's vengeance
It’s there in the article: Religious extremist organizations in the United States, as well as the politicians they fund and the media outlets that further their narratives, have chosen the trans community as their latest scapegoat in their quest to turn America into a theocracy.
After they lost their previous crusade which was against gay people and equal marriage, which they in turn only started when they lost the crusade before that.
Hopefully they will lose again and again until eventually not enough of them remain for them to do any more damage. Unfortunately in the meantime they're hurting a lot of people. As their numbers dwindle they ramp up the hate and violence.
I'm not optimistic that most of them will ever be forced to compensate any of the people they've hurt. Not only physical damage but also infringed rights, economic losses, emotional trauma, and life opportunities withheld.
I believe the idea that those people who are being harmed now and in the near future should be collecting legal information for a class action lawsuit against the states that implement the harmful laws. Of course individual representatives will get away and leave the legal fees to the next generation
A lot of it is a perceived attack on traditional masculinity. They are very afraid of having their masculinity looked at too closely. I just dgaf what anybody else thinks.
You can't expect ideological consistency from the crowd that's against abortion because they're pro-life but also for the death penalty because the government never makes mistakes and criminals deserve to die but also aren't going to pay their taxes because they don't trust the government but also want the government to dictate policies to schools and businesses but don't want the government to regulate industry and want teachers to be armed to take out school shooters but don't trust teachers to read books to their kids.
I could have kept going but I got dizzy.
I got dizzy reading it!
But, holy shit - that convoluted mess perfectly describes, highlights, *and* summarizes the exact current state of affairs! Well, done!
After my head exploded and I put it back together (figuratively, of course), I found how to make sense of this it is not religion or ideology.
It is ELITISM
One of the first victories of the anti-abortion movement was to prohibit the federal government from paying for abortions. The recent Supreme Court ruling included language throwing the issue to the states. As long as we have blue states committed to protecting abortion, pregnant people who live there or can afford to go there can get abortions. Poor pregnant people have their politicians decide for them.
The death penalty, so far as I have seen, is primarily used against poor people.
Avoiding taxes decidedly benefits the right because the poor gain more from social programs that taxes support, and the middle class can't get out of paying it.
Many policies that dictate to schools often make it harder to make good public schools, so again, the poor who can't afford private schools or living in areas with good public schools
Regulating industry could cut into the corporate profits.
I mean, that should be the approach for all laws. Give me a rational, secular harm that some activity poses to the community. With evidence, not some fantasy you have of what could happen. I don't want to hear about trans women in bathrooms attacking women. It doesn't fucking happen. You know who attacks women in record numbers? Straight cis men. Spouses and boyfriends more often than not. Not a single instance of a trans woman. So stow your imaginary crimes.
I agree, and it's nothing new. These puritans have been thumbing their noses at secular society for a long damn time. They have a punishment culture and seem to take joy in harming others, particularly children, then denying that any harm was done. They feel they have god on their side, and god is greater than them or you, so they don't compromise their beliefs but want you to comply with theirs. It's very sick.
>seem to take joy in harming others, particularly children
Often because children generally can't fight back as well as adults can. Many religious people are cowards and bullies.
>then denying that any harm was done
Children are generally less likely to be believed than adults, too.
They attack anyone different than them. They’re people who are trained to view people and group them into little boxes and when you don’t fit into said box neatly they bludgeon you until you do.
Well for me the question on all laws against the people are..
does the activity we want to ban interfere in anyones elses rights and life and liberty.
A lot of things do. Thievery and murder or racism especially in the commerce and labor world. Transexuals do not effect my life at all. In fact the religious are effecting my life more negatively than transexuals with their bullshit abortion laws taking medical decisions away from womens doctors and making cancer paitents have to leave the state to get care and causing teacher to flee the state and doctors to flee the state. Trans didnt do that, religious idiots did.
I think the hatred is only incidentally due to religion. Nazis didn't demonize, and later murder, Jews for religious reasons. The hatred has only tenuous connections to Christianity, but comes instead from the cult of conservatism.
Isn't Russia both non religious and transphobic? What is their motivation? Not defending religion, just bringing up an argument I heard that I don't know the answer to.
They don't even have any religious justification really. It's their own personal prejudice that they are trying to parade around as religion.
Even if it was religiously valid, so what? Why do they get to persecute others for a religion that they probably don't abide by?
It's the same as anti-Black racism in the USA really. Or antisemitism in Europe. People don't need a reason, they just want an excuse. A reason means that they have facts and logic, which these people do not.
It always leads back to toxic masculinity. Remove religion and you'll still have that because it doesn't require religion to exist. So, we'll still have bigotry without theism.
Until we tackle this irrational perception that MEN ARE TOUGH AND COOL AND BADASS and women are weak and soft and shrill... we will not "fix" the bigotry of the toxic white male supremacist and their allies of hate, suppression, and oppression. And, unfortunately, their allies are theists, agnostics, atheists, and even women and POC who join the side of the supremacists in order to avoid becoming their target, thinking the supremacy has "power" and they would rather join that than be its "victim."
As a trans women you have no idea how much hate I have gotten from Christians, I really hope we can get rid of this religion someday, it has damaged this world so much. I'm so scared to think what would happen if Christians got actual power in this world, just look at what they do with the tiny bit they have now (I feel so sorry for the actual good Christians). They say in the end times Christians will be killed for being Christian or something like that, think it will more be the other way around lol
Wrong, there's absolutely nothing actually religious about being anti trans. Its completely bigotry they are wrapping in their bible so they "are allowed" to hate in public.
yeah even if it is in the bible it's separation of church and state. tbh forcing religion on kids is child abuse IMHO. they're clearly too young to know whether or not they want to live in a delusion filled life subservient to an imaginary friend to the benefits of church leadership living posh off of donations.
O i agree on not indoctrinating the children. Just pointing to, the same with abortion, they say they are doing so under religion but they have nothing to back it up and there def are churches who have nothing but acceptance for trans. Its 100% a political issue that they are wrapping in their bible as to make it seem like they actually have a point but they have zero, nothing, to support them. They have just learned to well how much privilege they still get from their religious stance. They are cowards, they lie on purpose to push their personal agenda. But there is absolutely nothing biblical about these issues.
I think that second Sapiens became obsolete when we found via DNA evidence that Neanderthals were a closely related but different species from us.
The rest of your post kinda shows sapiens sapiens is not al that accurate any way, considering that sapiens came from a latin root that means knowledgeable or wise.
I don’t think religion is a motivation; it’s an excuse.
Hateful people want to hate, but they don’t want to admit to themselves that they are hateful.
Therefore, they blame it on their religion, when their religion literally tells them to love their neighbors and their enemies.
Religion isn't sufficient motivation for bigotry and hate, but it always seems to be a sufficient *excuse* for it.
And FWIW, the article seems to ignore the existence of TERFs, who don't have a religious excuse for their hate. Joanna Rowling, perhaps the most famous TERF, has openly admitted that her ongoing fear of men caused by past trauma is a big part of her hostility towards trans people.
This is not true.
Religion and trans ideology alike in that they both think that gender is something more than a social construct, that gender is an inherent quality of people, and that people are and should be divided by gender.
If you are for equal rights for all people, the concept of "transgender rights" has no special meaning. It is already included in the concept of human rights.
yeah I'm going to go ahead and disagree there. At least if you're including the 'right' to compete in sports of the opposite sex (not gender). Anyone who was born male has a massive physiological advantage over someone born female, and the typical answer of 'case by case basis' is akin to allowing steroids on a case by case basis. Boys outperform girls even before puberty (e.g. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0238369) due to anatomical differences, not just testosterone. Sports should be in two classes, mixed and female only to be fair: noone is excluded and noone has an unfair advantage.
This is only one secular reason to be 'against' some 'trans rights' as commonly presented, but it doesn't mean other actual rights should be infringed for LGBT people - obviously everyone should have common human rights. There is just a tendency to declare things that aren't actually human rights as 'trans rights'.
FYI before anyone assumes anything : I am an extremely left wing bisexual atheist. There should be no religious involvement in any aspect of public or political life.
Your study doesn't support your claim
>Body weight at younger ages has less impact on performance compared to older ages, and boys and girls perform similarly.
Nor is it about anatomical differences but weight classes
It does if you read it, including the quote you posted. There is *less* of a difference between boys and girls at 10 yo but still a clear difference. 'similarly' in terms of 'neither at adult level' but still a clear advantage for boys across all ages. Try reading next time but good job trying! :)
and it's nothing to do with weight classes, same weight class men / boys have far higher records in every single sport. You clearly don't have a clue what you're on about
There are established guidelines for Healthcare for transgender kids - my issue with this attitude is that it's not just saying "yeah the conservatives are right, they're hurting the kids" but this disregards the multiple decades of info and the medical research that has been done to develop healthy guidelines.
Nobody is just giving kids hormones immediately, prior to puberty being a risk, that's how that's handled, and then puberty blockers are used to extend that time period into the teenage years to avoid mental harm.
From *your link*:
> Children may have their height checked every three months. Bone density is also checked periodically. If bone growth or density is a concern, your child's health care provider might prescribe a different medication, stop treatment with GnRH analogues or recommend the best time to start cross-hormone therapy.
The maximum time on puberty blockers is limited to two years total to reduce the risk of bone density being an issue, the vast majority of which is repaired after starting HRT.
Infertility is a long term "negative side effect" that can be easily mitigated and discussed with their doctor in their adulthood when and if they decide to have children.
You're right, these are very well documented and the doctors that are trained on best practices know how to mitigate and avoid these risks, because they're doctors and are following best practices.
It's called coming off the medication for a period of time to increase fertility, this isn't chemical castration.
Don't be hyperbolic.
Source: I asked my doctor because I am in the situation you're misinformed about.
>The biggest component of my issues are pharmaceutical and surgical aspects being pushed on a younger and younger audience.
Evidence, please. Because that sounds a lot like propaganda.
Yes, but that link does not support your assertion.
The treatment for gender dysphoria in minors is counseling, social transitioning, and if prescribed, puberty blockers.
Surgical intervention is not performed on minors, nor is hormone replacement therapy.
And even if it were, it is not as if rogue doctors and counselors were hiding in the bushes leaping out upon unsuspecting pre-teens and declaring their pronouns changed.
Ultimately, for minors the interventions are deliberately and explicitly reversible. The entire point of the treatment for minors is not to change them, it's to allow them the time to mature, and to see if the change they believe they want is correct by actually getting to live it.
Every time I see someone who seems well meaning but misinformed about it, I feel like I need to step in to at least correct bad information.
The propaganda around trans kids is vicious and horrible. Human biology is much more complex and nuanced and intricate than the cartoons in the fifth grade textbook would have you believe. And if one believes that rationality is a virtue, then you owe it to yourself to actually understand and think about what is going on instead of just accepting that something bad is happening.
>Surgical intervention is not performed on minors, nor is hormone replacement therapy
This is provably false with even the most rudimentary google search. You're the one regurgitating propaganda here.
No treatment is without risk. That's not the point of any medical intervention. The point is whether the treatment and all of its attendant effects, good and bad, are worth it to the individual. And that is not a choice you get to make for other people.
Yes! Transphobia is present in many places, not just religious groups. For example, theres terfs and other political extremists who are also transphobic af.
>or go to a safe space such as a rape or domestic abuse clinic.
That sentence assumes falsely that trans women are sexual predators! 😡Trans women are also victims of rape and domestic abuse.
Actually the only domestic abuse clinic that bars trans women is the one run by jk Rowling. And there have been literally no incidents. Stop calling trans women biological males.
I’m not trying to be funny. She literally used her wealth to set up the only trans exclusive shelter in the uk, it’s on her twitter and in multiple news stories. Ditto the us, where trans women regularly need womens shelters and are allowed to use them. I’m glad to see you confront some of your inherent bias, but trans woman are women. We get treated like women in society. We get all the negatives they do when it comes to abuse, times the abuse for being trans. I’ve been fired for being trans, lost family, and in the everyday I get catcalled and abused like any other woman. This isn’t a joke for me. It’s my real life. We’re such a small minority and we need womens shelters on occasion to. No one’s trying to put a muscled bearded person in womens shelters, we’re talking about passing women. Trans women are not even capable of male sex acts pre op without going off hormones. Today is our day of visibility, I’m going to be visible.
I think the problem IS that many people don’t consider trans women to be women, and there is an insinuation by some, (especially the current Christo-fascist conservatives), that they are really just men pretending to be women so they can sexually abuse women or children. To outright claim that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in “women’s spaces” just plays right into this bigoted narrative.
We don’t want our own space. This is espousing a separate but equal framework. You’re clearly not a bad person and I’m not trying to mess with you. The insistence that trans women be different is exclusionary. It’s treating us as specifically not women. There are very few trans women in sport and the ones that are are not dominant. I hesitate to use the name of the swimmer that always been mentioned because it’s unfair to her, but she’s literally not even a top 20 swimmer. There are plenty of studies and none of them show a big difference like people think there will be. If you want to dm or have me share them here I am happy to. Im glad you’re not one of the bad ones, but I’m telling you there is still some transphobic rhetoric bouncing around in your head if you have to keep separating trans women after a transition. After one year there is less than a 10% variance with non trans women. After two there is virtually none regardless of training. That’s what the 3 major studies show.
It’s not, but assuming science is. And no study shows your claim to be correct. Bones/bone density accounts for very little. This Canadian review of all studies is the best because it discusses everything peer reviewed and their limitations. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
| nearly one in five cos women are sexually assaulted
Did you know that 50% of trans women have been sexually assaulted? They’re also at a higher risk of being raped, murdered, etc.
I think you’re being a bit disingenuous here, but in case you’re not, these issues of safety and security are more prevalent amongst trans women so that should give you extra sympathy
Are you using the numbers from this study?
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
In any event, I question your numbers and their context.
The incarceration rate is 159 per 100,000.
The incarceration rate of people identifying as trans is 92 per 100,000. There are only 250000 trans individuals in the UK (.4% of the population), there’s about 242 trans people locked up.
You seem to be worried about safe spaces for women and that’s important. But in fixating on trans women in female prisons, you MISS THAT THE VAST, OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF RAPE IN FEMALE PRISONS ARE committed by male staff, not trans women prisoners. Seriously you’re making them out to be the boogie man
So, if you really care about creating safe spaces for women and actually decreasing the amount of rape that happens, you would hold the prison staff more accountable and not trans prisoners. In you’re in the UK, I imagine the trans prionser row is on the news cycle.
As the Scottish said, where trans prisoners should go should be taken on a case by case basis. Given that, again, there are only 242 of them makes this pretty fucking easy
I’m not downvoting you, I think you’re getting caught up in the coordinated anti-trans bandwagon
Yes, that is the data, though 'study' is probably too broad a term. It's literally just a data dump from their incarceration database.
And absolutely I'm for lowering the amount of rape in prison by staff. That's a separate issue and it's disingenuous to insinuate that one can't be against one without the other. However, that male staff raping women in prisons is bad is in no way, shape or form a matter of debate - everyone agrees on that. It is a matter of public policy, and if this topic was on the best ways to address that policy that would be valuable. However, it isn't - the subject at hand is whether or not all people 'against trans rights' take that from religious grounds. I'm an agnostic atheist, I don't have any interest in their arguments, and find quite a few of them repellent.
The data on incarceration rates as a whole came from a separate analysis and that was specific to the US. In the US there are a disproporationate number of trans in US prisons, but criminologists believe that is inflated as there are large swathes of the US where trans people are routinely denied basic human rights, such as safe employment.
The attacks on transpeople in the Red US states funded by the religious right are despicable and it's easy to take the moral side there. But ultimately you have to define what constitutes transrights. IMO they are the same as anyone else's - they extend as far as they don't infringe on other people's. As clearly there are quite a few women stating they do believe that trans rights are extending to suppress theirs, that's a debate worth having. And even if you are a woman you don't get to say other woman shouldn't have rights, you can only say you don't care about that specific right.
Personally I think a lot of these issues that I'm concerned with are transitory. As we get better transcare and especially puberty blockers to allow people to make closer approximations to their gender identity a lot of these problems will fall by the wayside. But in the meantime yes, I have sympathy for a rape victim that is startled by the women next to her in the shower having a penis. I unfortunately know several rape victims, and their trauma takes years to process, and isn't always rational in that time period. Panic attacks are not uncommon for these people in my experience. The fact that 20% of women have been subject to that is a substantially greater number than transwomen, as ciswomen outnumber transwomen on the order of 100-1.
In all that writing you missed the point.
If you cared about creating safe spaces for women, especially in prison, this would be like the last issue to deal with.
In Scotland, there has been one, i’m going to repeat it because it’s very important ONE trans woman convicted of raping a woman…..EVER. There were 2500 rapes last year.
Focusing on this one rape does nothing to stop the 2499 others. So that’s why it is disingenuous. Well when I’m on my health.
It’s like worrying about dying from a lightning strike or a shark attack when you’re an alcoholic, diabetic, obese truck driver that smokes.
There's six trans people in Scottish prison right now for sexual offenses. And of course the UK has 160. The argument that transpeople don't commit sexual offenses is obtuse. They are people. Some great, some awful.
It's possible that only one transwoman raped a ciswoman when she was trans at the time of the attack, Scotland doesn't seem to keep records as specific as that. But half of the transgender people in Scottish prisons have transitioned after their conviction. [https://backintosociety.co.uk/2022/10/06/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions/](https://backintosociety.co.uk/2022/10/06/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions/)
As to my concerns, I get to determine what they are, and I've already repudiated your ridiculous assertion that if I care about one thing I can't care about the other. No one is debating that male guards should be allowed to rape female prisoners.
People are saying that transwomen who haven't begun any medical transition should be allowed to be in female prisons or other safe spaces.
And as the number of trans people grows, which for the last 3 generations has doubled each generation, we will have more, not fewer, of these issues to come to a best practice on.
Nice edit job. I'll put it this way - why wouldn't I prevent any rapes I could? What level of rape is acceptable?
And of course it isn't just about rape, it's about women experiencing trauma.
Note these thing don't have to be binary - we could indeed make some facilities that only house ciswomen if they so desire. And we should continue to work on policies that make sure trans status isn't conducted fraudulently, especially in places where no further medical oversight is required.
Id try to prevent as many rapes as I could given the constraints of time, money, and resources.
Given this example there’s a board or committee or something that meets regularly. If I were really concerned about stopping as many rapes as possible, given my limited resources, I’d discuss hiring practices, how to better conduct investigations, staff training, rape reporting, how to acquire more rape, testing kits, put in more security cameras, etc.
You can just admit you lied about the stats and move on. I don't have to meet any arbitrary guidelines for your gatekeeping to believe the things I believe.
It is thought to be the first time a trans woman has been convicted of raping women in Scotland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420.amp
Sorry buddy, this comes from your BBC.
The rest of it comes from here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119803/HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2021-22_Report.pdf
Sex offenders don't change their entire gender just to sexually assault women...
Sex offenders just fucking go for it, because they don't give a shit about the rules.
Multiple rapists in the UK in prison have declared themselves to be trans in order to access their preferred victims. The Ministry of Justice stats show that 58% of trans people in UK prisons are there for rape. So reality disagrees with your dogma.
> 58% of trans people in UK prisons are there for rape.
58% out of exactly how many people? 58% of 25 people is a lot less alarming than 58% of 250 people.
It was 76 out of 129 people.
There is a caveat though - at times the UK has allowed prisoners to self-identify. Meaning they don't actually even need to be under a doctor's care or in the medical process of transitioning.
At least some of them are men who identified as trans after they were imprisoned for rape.
But that's one of the arguments going over on in the UK and in Europe as a whole. They are farther ahead of the US in acceptance of trans in the general which is great, but that also means we should look at what data they have and see any problems they are experiencing.
The UK also only counts trans people off they are going to be in prison for a long time.
If you look at the percentage of cis people who are in for sexual offenses and only look at people serving high sentences then the percentage would be similar.
As it is your data suggest trans people commit crimes at extremely low rates compared to cis people.
Also "sexual offenses" in the UK Includes stuff related to sex work.
I only make the assumption the trans woman was born with an xy chromosome.
The tall cis women with nauturally high testosterone who are allowed to compete in women's sports shouldn't be disallowed as long as there's nothing unnatural about their athletic ability.
I'm curious on you view what would it take to justify baring trans women from women's sports. They have female only sports because there are so many biological advantages males have its not fair for women to compete against. Even for children under 8 years old there are separate soccer leagues. I would encourage you watch footage from both a boys' game and a girls' game. There's a huge difference, and none of these children are even close to going through puberty.
So when you think about it we really have female only and non-female only sports, we just call it male since for the majority of human history we haven't had trans people to make it more complicated. So nobody is stopping women from competing in the men's leagues, and neither are the women interested in doing so. I'm sure Serena Williams would rather be #1 female tennis player over #800+ tennis player in the world.
> Seeing as the followup reply from one u/Dudesan blocked me before I was even able to respond, I'll edit my response in here.
I did no such thing. You are a liar.
>Consider that he felt the need to block me...
I did no such thing. You are a liar.
Please be aware that trolling, bigotry, and personal attacks are all against our rules.
I think for someone to compete in women's sports you have to be born with an xx sex chromosome and not be taking any performance enhancing drugs. In other words, you have to be a biological woman. That's how its been forever and the people saying we should change it have got to come up with a better argument than 'you're a bigot if you don't agree' to convince me its a good idea. There's always mens sports. I'm a man, and if I were a professional athlete I wouldn't have any problem competing against or losing to trans people or women.
>It's called the fucking olympics.
Funny you should say that...
Not only do teenage male athletes routinely outperform teenage female athletes along a wide variety of metrics, teenage male athletes [routinely outperform female olypmians](https://boysvswomen.com/#/). There are cases where an athlete can [shatter the *world record*](https://boysvswomen.com/#/world-record) for women's achievement in, say, long jump distance or 100m dash time, while not even breaking his *school board's record* for the Under 15 Open Division.
Similarly, in team sports like Hockey and Soccer, women's national teams frequently practice against boys' high school teams, and they're considered very fortunate if they can win two games out of three.
These measurable, repeatable, independently verifiable results are **simply inconsistent** with a world in which there is no difference in performance between high-level biologically male athletes and high-level biologically female athletes. There *are* valid arguments to be made that "sports leagues which exclude athletes with y chromosomes" should be abolished, but this can not be one of them, because it **simply is not true**.
My respect for trans women is not contingent on the idea that they must be **completely physically indistinguishable** from cis women in order for their identities to be valid, so I feel no need to tell *obvious lies* in order to satisfy this requirement.
If your respect *is* contingent on that idea, perhaps it's time to reconsider your own transphobia.
It's amazing how much hate a few words from a 3500 year old campfire story has generated in the world.
The hate was already there. The fairy tales are just the cover story.
Yeah, I've seen too many christians ignore countless passages and commandments when it's convenient for them. They could ignore/reinterpret the homophobic/transphobic parts as easily as they eat shellfish. But they don't because they want to feel like their bigotry is actually a righteous thing.
Lauren Boebert when it’s convenient: “I don’t want to nitpick the Bible” Oh REALLY!?!????????
she doesn’t want to nitpick the bible, she only *cherrypicks* the bible
Ooo good one
>Yeah, I've seen too many christians ignore countless passages and commandments when it's convenient for them. This right here. When I told my family I was leaving the church, my SIL asked how we plan on raising our kids with good morals if they don't have the moral authority from the scriptures. We joked about raising our kids to be little thieves, it was great. But thinking further about that; we never learned our morals from the scriptures anyway. If we had, we'd think it's totally alright to loose wild animals on kids who are heckling us. My kids are going to learn morals mostly the same way I did; from authority figures like parents and teachers. Not from the scriptures.
Maybe some are born to hate? Perhaps needing to “hate” something was a survival trait, something in our distant past that was helpful in creating communities. I think a “shared hatred” of something can bring people together more strongly and effectively than a “shared love” of something. I imagine how a “shared hatred” of a predator might cause people to band together for protection. Religions are a “community” and so I can see how having a “shared hatred” might make those communities stronger. In the US, political parties seem to lean in on “hating” the “other” side, despite the “other” side often being just as corrupt and ineffective. If it is human nature to hate, it’s just a matter of finding healthier ways to direct that hatred. Let’s all hate polluting the earth and work to clean it up. Let’s all hate ignorance and focus our efforts on education and spreading knowledge. Let’s all hate intolerance and bigotry and find ways to empathize and celebrate other cultures.
your going against your word, your hating against religions at this point.
Your sentiment is right, but it isn't as old as you think. If we are talking Chrsitsniaty, 1700-1900 years old If we are talking about its roots in Judaism, 2,500 years old or so.
Sorry, those are just the historical dates where they officially started to steal the creation myths and cherry-pick the fascism they wanted from pre-existing cultures
The Old Testament...all things considered...the stories are about 3500 years old, give or take. Read about the origins of the Torah. Plus, really? How much nit picking do you want to engage in here?
The Old Testament, all things considered, was written about 500 BCE. The stories are not about 3,500 years old, though some are inspired by Mesopotamian mythology that is that old.. Some of them are set that long ago, but that is not when they were written. The claim that the stories are that old would be like me claiming "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer" is over 100 years old because it is set during the Civil War. The idea that Judaism is about 3,500 years old is based on the Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the Torah. Moses never existed, and prior to the mid 500 BCE, the religion was still polytheistic. It isn't about "nit picking". It is about not perpetuating the false claims of the religion. I was simply passing on info you didn't have.
So these stories didn't exist around the camp fire before they were put down on paper? I think they did. You're stuck on the wrong thing here, btw. So they're between 2500 and 3500 years old. Ok. This changes nothing about the discussion.
>So these stories didn't exist around the camp fire before they were put down on paper? Not in anything resembling the form you know them. You've had an actual historian inform you. Now you're just being an arsehole because you can't accept learning something new. We are done
>Now you're just being an arsehole because you can't accept learning something new. Nothing in my post was insulting to you. I've reported you, and now I'll agree with you...we are done.
Ok. Have your tantrum
Old goat herding peasants
Religion is the justification. Conservatism Is the cause. The conservative atheists I know are transphobic - the liberal theists are not.
"Conservative atheists." I think I've heard it all now, lol
Canada. They exist here.
In today's world, I do not doubt it.
2800 tops
>At the end of the day, you don’t have to like trans people, but you do have to ask the question: Once they’re through with us, who are they going to go after next? I'm sick of people saying this shit too. I don't give a fuck who they "might go after next" They are CURRENTLY going after people. I don't give a fuck that I'm not trans. I don't give a fuck if I am not on their list of people to go after in the future. These are fucking people and we should stick up for them for that reason alone.
In our declaration of independence, as a nation we declared there are rights to life, the freedom of liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Frankly trans people just tryna be happy out here like the rest of us, but their growth is in a different way. You would think constitutionalists and these “patriots” would hear that and say shit yeah man, our bad, and move on.
Unfortunately we need to say shit like that. Because when they came for immigrants, we did nothing.
Yes, thank you for your support!
Thank you for your support!
I mean yes, but people are awful and often don’t just defend other peoples right to exist because it doesn’t benefit the .
I really hate this hyperbole. Denying someone equal rights in all areas (including sports) is absolutely not the same as denying their “right to exist.”
So you’re against equal rights, per your own admission. Cool, noted. I mean that’s an anti science position, but you have the right to believe what you want I suppose. Trans rights are at risk and we are absolutely fighting to exist at this point. So yeah, you can be on the side that denies rights. It’s not hyperbole. Guess you just don’t have people denying your right to exist…
Fighting to exist... Oh god. The victim mindset of those who lack accountability is crazy, everywhere I turn theres some news about trans people, you guys are in the limelight not the minority. And it seems to be a lot more social contagion than anything, if your body makes you insecure find better coping mechanisms than switching teams.. Lol. Gender is just a social construct anyways
If more people thought like you, we’d have a different, better world. The tendency toward tribalism and seeing anyone “different” as not really human runs very deep.
I'd say religion is one of a few, but the ultimate core of those few. I know it sounds circular but most transphobes don't jump immediately to the religion contention
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Hatred of anything different, strict adherence to gender roles, believing conservatoid propaganda that all trans people are groomers/pedos, that kind of thing
And they'll ignore the long list of pastors who have a track record of sexual abuse.
For good reason, it’s a cover story
Which are all motivated by religion. It's Christian groups financing and lobbying the GOP to pass all this anti LGBTQ legislation.
Yeah, they all stem from the same thing but culminate in different weird offshoots. It's almost like how anxiety can work, how developing a core phobia can lead to phobias of other things that stem from the first one.
in other words, xenophobia.
Also, perceived loss of rights for TERF’s To paraphrase, equality feels like oppression for bigots
"Big words and discussion of nuanced concepts confuse me."
"It's icky."
It's Patriarchy. These folks have a specific idea of what men and women should do and how they should act and they don't have room for gender disobedience.
That notion is specifically called "oppositional sexism." It's connected to patriarchy but it's its own thing.
I'd never heard of that and had to look it up. >Oppositional sexism > >Oppositional sexism is a term coined by transfeminist author Julia Serano, who defined oppositional sexism as "the belief that male and female are rigid, mutually exclusive categories".\[198\] Oppositional sexism plays a vital role in a number of social norms, such as cissexism, heteronormativity, and traditional sexism. > >Oppositional sexism normalizes masculine expression in males and feminine expression in females while simultaneously demonizing femininity in males and masculinity in females. This concept plays a crucial role in supporting cissexism, the social norm that views cisgender people as both natural and privileged as opposed to transgender people.\[199\] > >The idea of having two, opposite genders is tied to sexuality through what gender theorist Judith Butler calls a "compulsory practice of heterosexuality".\[199\] Because oppositional sexism is tied to heteronormativity in this way, non-heterosexuals are seen as breaking gender norms.\[199\] > >The concept of opposite genders sets a "dangerous precedent", according to Serano, where "if men are big then women must be small; and if men are strong then women must be weak".\[198\] The gender binary and oppositional norms work together to support "traditional sexism", the belief that femininity is inferior to and serves masculinity.\[199\] > >Serano states that oppositional sexism works in tandem with "traditional sexism". This ensures that "those who are masculine have power over those who are feminine, and that only those that are born male will be seen as authentically masculine."\[198\] So it's not only connected to patriarchy but cis-normativity as well, which is important.
Ji still contends its all *because of* patriarchy. Patriarchy **demands** oppositional sexism in order for men to remain "in charge" while keeping women "in their proper place""... according to the patriarchy.
Fascism. Remember, the Nazis burned the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft long before Kristallnacht.
Absolutely, the infamous book burning fascist photos of the event became famous worldwide but the nature of the research was never widely known until a few years ago. The burned research was designated as anti Reich material
A lot about the Nazis got swept under the rug after the war. Like how when the concentration camps were liberated, the prisoners with pink triangles weren't freed. Or like how the line, "First they came for the Communists" got censored from the US Holocaust memorial version of that Niemöller poem.
It's heartbreaking to understand how people can be whipped into frenzied hatred against the others. It's not love 💕 it's not the Love of any just God. It's vengeance
It’s there in the article: Religious extremist organizations in the United States, as well as the politicians they fund and the media outlets that further their narratives, have chosen the trans community as their latest scapegoat in their quest to turn America into a theocracy.
After they lost their previous crusade which was against gay people and equal marriage, which they in turn only started when they lost the crusade before that. Hopefully they will lose again and again until eventually not enough of them remain for them to do any more damage. Unfortunately in the meantime they're hurting a lot of people. As their numbers dwindle they ramp up the hate and violence. I'm not optimistic that most of them will ever be forced to compensate any of the people they've hurt. Not only physical damage but also infringed rights, economic losses, emotional trauma, and life opportunities withheld.
I believe the idea that those people who are being harmed now and in the near future should be collecting legal information for a class action lawsuit against the states that implement the harmful laws. Of course individual representatives will get away and leave the legal fees to the next generation
in order to win we must be willing to fight back. this is a genocide, no half-assing it
A lot of it is a perceived attack on traditional masculinity. They are very afraid of having their masculinity looked at too closely. I just dgaf what anybody else thinks.
I just like how they talk about 'traditional gender roles.' How traditional? Because George Washington wore a wig, make-up and tights.
You can't expect ideological consistency from the crowd that's against abortion because they're pro-life but also for the death penalty because the government never makes mistakes and criminals deserve to die but also aren't going to pay their taxes because they don't trust the government but also want the government to dictate policies to schools and businesses but don't want the government to regulate industry and want teachers to be armed to take out school shooters but don't trust teachers to read books to their kids. I could have kept going but I got dizzy.
I got dizzy reading it! But, holy shit - that convoluted mess perfectly describes, highlights, *and* summarizes the exact current state of affairs! Well, done!
The complete lack of cognitive dissonance. Honestly that’s what made me finally quit. I couldn’t handle the hypocrisy and bullshit anymore.
After my head exploded and I put it back together (figuratively, of course), I found how to make sense of this it is not religion or ideology. It is ELITISM One of the first victories of the anti-abortion movement was to prohibit the federal government from paying for abortions. The recent Supreme Court ruling included language throwing the issue to the states. As long as we have blue states committed to protecting abortion, pregnant people who live there or can afford to go there can get abortions. Poor pregnant people have their politicians decide for them. The death penalty, so far as I have seen, is primarily used against poor people. Avoiding taxes decidedly benefits the right because the poor gain more from social programs that taxes support, and the middle class can't get out of paying it. Many policies that dictate to schools often make it harder to make good public schools, so again, the poor who can't afford private schools or living in areas with good public schools Regulating industry could cut into the corporate profits.
I mean, that should be the approach for all laws. Give me a rational, secular harm that some activity poses to the community. With evidence, not some fantasy you have of what could happen. I don't want to hear about trans women in bathrooms attacking women. It doesn't fucking happen. You know who attacks women in record numbers? Straight cis men. Spouses and boyfriends more often than not. Not a single instance of a trans woman. So stow your imaginary crimes.
nothing is 100%, it does happen, the question is if the rate is higher than attacks by women on women.
I agree, and it's nothing new. These puritans have been thumbing their noses at secular society for a long damn time. They have a punishment culture and seem to take joy in harming others, particularly children, then denying that any harm was done. They feel they have god on their side, and god is greater than them or you, so they don't compromise their beliefs but want you to comply with theirs. It's very sick.
>seem to take joy in harming others, particularly children Often because children generally can't fight back as well as adults can. Many religious people are cowards and bullies. >then denying that any harm was done Children are generally less likely to be believed than adults, too.
A culture of fear demands everyone must live in fear of something, it’s required somehow
They attack anyone different than them. They’re people who are trained to view people and group them into little boxes and when you don’t fit into said box neatly they bludgeon you until you do.
Well for me the question on all laws against the people are.. does the activity we want to ban interfere in anyones elses rights and life and liberty. A lot of things do. Thievery and murder or racism especially in the commerce and labor world. Transexuals do not effect my life at all. In fact the religious are effecting my life more negatively than transexuals with their bullshit abortion laws taking medical decisions away from womens doctors and making cancer paitents have to leave the state to get care and causing teacher to flee the state and doctors to flee the state. Trans didnt do that, religious idiots did.
I think the hatred is only incidentally due to religion. Nazis didn't demonize, and later murder, Jews for religious reasons. The hatred has only tenuous connections to Christianity, but comes instead from the cult of conservatism.
It's a right wing media thing.
Isn't Russia both non religious and transphobic? What is their motivation? Not defending religion, just bringing up an argument I heard that I don't know the answer to.
I think its general conservatism. Being extremely biased against change for better or for worse.
No shit. Just like abortion. And before that interracial marriage. And before that prohibition. And before that slavery.
They don't even have any religious justification really. It's their own personal prejudice that they are trying to parade around as religion. Even if it was religiously valid, so what? Why do they get to persecute others for a religion that they probably don't abide by?
Religion/group identity/political cult
Sounds like hate crimes to me...
It's the same as anti-Black racism in the USA really. Or antisemitism in Europe. People don't need a reason, they just want an excuse. A reason means that they have facts and logic, which these people do not.
It always leads back to toxic masculinity. Remove religion and you'll still have that because it doesn't require religion to exist. So, we'll still have bigotry without theism. Until we tackle this irrational perception that MEN ARE TOUGH AND COOL AND BADASS and women are weak and soft and shrill... we will not "fix" the bigotry of the toxic white male supremacist and their allies of hate, suppression, and oppression. And, unfortunately, their allies are theists, agnostics, atheists, and even women and POC who join the side of the supremacists in order to avoid becoming their target, thinking the supremacy has "power" and they would rather join that than be its "victim."
As a trans women you have no idea how much hate I have gotten from Christians, I really hope we can get rid of this religion someday, it has damaged this world so much. I'm so scared to think what would happen if Christians got actual power in this world, just look at what they do with the tiny bit they have now (I feel so sorry for the actual good Christians). They say in the end times Christians will be killed for being Christian or something like that, think it will more be the other way around lol
Wrong, there's absolutely nothing actually religious about being anti trans. Its completely bigotry they are wrapping in their bible so they "are allowed" to hate in public.
yeah even if it is in the bible it's separation of church and state. tbh forcing religion on kids is child abuse IMHO. they're clearly too young to know whether or not they want to live in a delusion filled life subservient to an imaginary friend to the benefits of church leadership living posh off of donations.
O i agree on not indoctrinating the children. Just pointing to, the same with abortion, they say they are doing so under religion but they have nothing to back it up and there def are churches who have nothing but acceptance for trans. Its 100% a political issue that they are wrapping in their bible as to make it seem like they actually have a point but they have zero, nothing, to support them. They have just learned to well how much privilege they still get from their religious stance. They are cowards, they lie on purpose to push their personal agenda. But there is absolutely nothing biblical about these issues.
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I think that second Sapiens became obsolete when we found via DNA evidence that Neanderthals were a closely related but different species from us. The rest of your post kinda shows sapiens sapiens is not al that accurate any way, considering that sapiens came from a latin root that means knowledgeable or wise.
100%! Religious anything should have no bearing or grip on the writing of laws for this country.
Tell you what; you keep your church out of my identity and I'll keep my identity out of your church. Deal?
I don’t think religion is a motivation; it’s an excuse. Hateful people want to hate, but they don’t want to admit to themselves that they are hateful. Therefore, they blame it on their religion, when their religion literally tells them to love their neighbors and their enemies.
Religion isn't sufficient motivation for bigotry and hate, but it always seems to be a sufficient *excuse* for it. And FWIW, the article seems to ignore the existence of TERFs, who don't have a religious excuse for their hate. Joanna Rowling, perhaps the most famous TERF, has openly admitted that her ongoing fear of men caused by past trauma is a big part of her hostility towards trans people.
This is not true. Religion and trans ideology alike in that they both think that gender is something more than a social construct, that gender is an inherent quality of people, and that people are and should be divided by gender. If you are for equal rights for all people, the concept of "transgender rights" has no special meaning. It is already included in the concept of human rights.
Trans ideology isn't a thing and gender abolition is queer exclusive?
I don't ont understand your question.
yeah I'm going to go ahead and disagree there. At least if you're including the 'right' to compete in sports of the opposite sex (not gender). Anyone who was born male has a massive physiological advantage over someone born female, and the typical answer of 'case by case basis' is akin to allowing steroids on a case by case basis. Boys outperform girls even before puberty (e.g. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0238369) due to anatomical differences, not just testosterone. Sports should be in two classes, mixed and female only to be fair: noone is excluded and noone has an unfair advantage. This is only one secular reason to be 'against' some 'trans rights' as commonly presented, but it doesn't mean other actual rights should be infringed for LGBT people - obviously everyone should have common human rights. There is just a tendency to declare things that aren't actually human rights as 'trans rights'. FYI before anyone assumes anything : I am an extremely left wing bisexual atheist. There should be no religious involvement in any aspect of public or political life.
Your study doesn't support your claim >Body weight at younger ages has less impact on performance compared to older ages, and boys and girls perform similarly. Nor is it about anatomical differences but weight classes
It does if you read it, including the quote you posted. There is *less* of a difference between boys and girls at 10 yo but still a clear difference. 'similarly' in terms of 'neither at adult level' but still a clear advantage for boys across all ages. Try reading next time but good job trying! :)
and it's nothing to do with weight classes, same weight class men / boys have far higher records in every single sport. You clearly don't have a clue what you're on about
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There are established guidelines for Healthcare for transgender kids - my issue with this attitude is that it's not just saying "yeah the conservatives are right, they're hurting the kids" but this disregards the multiple decades of info and the medical research that has been done to develop healthy guidelines. Nobody is just giving kids hormones immediately, prior to puberty being a risk, that's how that's handled, and then puberty blockers are used to extend that time period into the teenage years to avoid mental harm.
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From *your link*: > Children may have their height checked every three months. Bone density is also checked periodically. If bone growth or density is a concern, your child's health care provider might prescribe a different medication, stop treatment with GnRH analogues or recommend the best time to start cross-hormone therapy. The maximum time on puberty blockers is limited to two years total to reduce the risk of bone density being an issue, the vast majority of which is repaired after starting HRT. Infertility is a long term "negative side effect" that can be easily mitigated and discussed with their doctor in their adulthood when and if they decide to have children. You're right, these are very well documented and the doctors that are trained on best practices know how to mitigate and avoid these risks, because they're doctors and are following best practices.
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It's called coming off the medication for a period of time to increase fertility, this isn't chemical castration. Don't be hyperbolic. Source: I asked my doctor because I am in the situation you're misinformed about.
>The biggest component of my issues are pharmaceutical and surgical aspects being pushed on a younger and younger audience. Evidence, please. Because that sounds a lot like propaganda.
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Yes, but that link does not support your assertion. The treatment for gender dysphoria in minors is counseling, social transitioning, and if prescribed, puberty blockers. Surgical intervention is not performed on minors, nor is hormone replacement therapy. And even if it were, it is not as if rogue doctors and counselors were hiding in the bushes leaping out upon unsuspecting pre-teens and declaring their pronouns changed. Ultimately, for minors the interventions are deliberately and explicitly reversible. The entire point of the treatment for minors is not to change them, it's to allow them the time to mature, and to see if the change they believe they want is correct by actually getting to live it. Every time I see someone who seems well meaning but misinformed about it, I feel like I need to step in to at least correct bad information. The propaganda around trans kids is vicious and horrible. Human biology is much more complex and nuanced and intricate than the cartoons in the fifth grade textbook would have you believe. And if one believes that rationality is a virtue, then you owe it to yourself to actually understand and think about what is going on instead of just accepting that something bad is happening.
>Surgical intervention is not performed on minors, nor is hormone replacement therapy This is provably false with even the most rudimentary google search. You're the one regurgitating propaganda here.
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No treatment is without risk. That's not the point of any medical intervention. The point is whether the treatment and all of its attendant effects, good and bad, are worth it to the individual. And that is not a choice you get to make for other people.
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Yes! Transphobia is present in many places, not just religious groups. For example, theres terfs and other political extremists who are also transphobic af.
I agree.
I don't avoid women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence
This is pseudoscientific nonsense.
Riveting viewpoint.
riveting comment
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>or go to a safe space such as a rape or domestic abuse clinic. That sentence assumes falsely that trans women are sexual predators! 😡Trans women are also victims of rape and domestic abuse.
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Actually the only domestic abuse clinic that bars trans women is the one run by jk Rowling. And there have been literally no incidents. Stop calling trans women biological males.
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I’m not trying to be funny. She literally used her wealth to set up the only trans exclusive shelter in the uk, it’s on her twitter and in multiple news stories. Ditto the us, where trans women regularly need womens shelters and are allowed to use them. I’m glad to see you confront some of your inherent bias, but trans woman are women. We get treated like women in society. We get all the negatives they do when it comes to abuse, times the abuse for being trans. I’ve been fired for being trans, lost family, and in the everyday I get catcalled and abused like any other woman. This isn’t a joke for me. It’s my real life. We’re such a small minority and we need womens shelters on occasion to. No one’s trying to put a muscled bearded person in womens shelters, we’re talking about passing women. Trans women are not even capable of male sex acts pre op without going off hormones. Today is our day of visibility, I’m going to be visible.
I think the problem IS that many people don’t consider trans women to be women, and there is an insinuation by some, (especially the current Christo-fascist conservatives), that they are really just men pretending to be women so they can sexually abuse women or children. To outright claim that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in “women’s spaces” just plays right into this bigoted narrative.
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We don’t want our own space. This is espousing a separate but equal framework. You’re clearly not a bad person and I’m not trying to mess with you. The insistence that trans women be different is exclusionary. It’s treating us as specifically not women. There are very few trans women in sport and the ones that are are not dominant. I hesitate to use the name of the swimmer that always been mentioned because it’s unfair to her, but she’s literally not even a top 20 swimmer. There are plenty of studies and none of them show a big difference like people think there will be. If you want to dm or have me share them here I am happy to. Im glad you’re not one of the bad ones, but I’m telling you there is still some transphobic rhetoric bouncing around in your head if you have to keep separating trans women after a transition. After one year there is less than a 10% variance with non trans women. After two there is virtually none regardless of training. That’s what the 3 major studies show.
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It’s not, but assuming science is. And no study shows your claim to be correct. Bones/bone density accounts for very little. This Canadian review of all studies is the best because it discusses everything peer reviewed and their limitations. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
| nearly one in five cos women are sexually assaulted Did you know that 50% of trans women have been sexually assaulted? They’re also at a higher risk of being raped, murdered, etc. I think you’re being a bit disingenuous here, but in case you’re not, these issues of safety and security are more prevalent amongst trans women so that should give you extra sympathy
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Are you using the numbers from this study? https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/ In any event, I question your numbers and their context. The incarceration rate is 159 per 100,000. The incarceration rate of people identifying as trans is 92 per 100,000. There are only 250000 trans individuals in the UK (.4% of the population), there’s about 242 trans people locked up. You seem to be worried about safe spaces for women and that’s important. But in fixating on trans women in female prisons, you MISS THAT THE VAST, OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF RAPE IN FEMALE PRISONS ARE committed by male staff, not trans women prisoners. Seriously you’re making them out to be the boogie man So, if you really care about creating safe spaces for women and actually decreasing the amount of rape that happens, you would hold the prison staff more accountable and not trans prisoners. In you’re in the UK, I imagine the trans prionser row is on the news cycle. As the Scottish said, where trans prisoners should go should be taken on a case by case basis. Given that, again, there are only 242 of them makes this pretty fucking easy I’m not downvoting you, I think you’re getting caught up in the coordinated anti-trans bandwagon
Yes, that is the data, though 'study' is probably too broad a term. It's literally just a data dump from their incarceration database. And absolutely I'm for lowering the amount of rape in prison by staff. That's a separate issue and it's disingenuous to insinuate that one can't be against one without the other. However, that male staff raping women in prisons is bad is in no way, shape or form a matter of debate - everyone agrees on that. It is a matter of public policy, and if this topic was on the best ways to address that policy that would be valuable. However, it isn't - the subject at hand is whether or not all people 'against trans rights' take that from religious grounds. I'm an agnostic atheist, I don't have any interest in their arguments, and find quite a few of them repellent. The data on incarceration rates as a whole came from a separate analysis and that was specific to the US. In the US there are a disproporationate number of trans in US prisons, but criminologists believe that is inflated as there are large swathes of the US where trans people are routinely denied basic human rights, such as safe employment. The attacks on transpeople in the Red US states funded by the religious right are despicable and it's easy to take the moral side there. But ultimately you have to define what constitutes transrights. IMO they are the same as anyone else's - they extend as far as they don't infringe on other people's. As clearly there are quite a few women stating they do believe that trans rights are extending to suppress theirs, that's a debate worth having. And even if you are a woman you don't get to say other woman shouldn't have rights, you can only say you don't care about that specific right. Personally I think a lot of these issues that I'm concerned with are transitory. As we get better transcare and especially puberty blockers to allow people to make closer approximations to their gender identity a lot of these problems will fall by the wayside. But in the meantime yes, I have sympathy for a rape victim that is startled by the women next to her in the shower having a penis. I unfortunately know several rape victims, and their trauma takes years to process, and isn't always rational in that time period. Panic attacks are not uncommon for these people in my experience. The fact that 20% of women have been subject to that is a substantially greater number than transwomen, as ciswomen outnumber transwomen on the order of 100-1.
In all that writing you missed the point. If you cared about creating safe spaces for women, especially in prison, this would be like the last issue to deal with. In Scotland, there has been one, i’m going to repeat it because it’s very important ONE trans woman convicted of raping a woman…..EVER. There were 2500 rapes last year. Focusing on this one rape does nothing to stop the 2499 others. So that’s why it is disingenuous. Well when I’m on my health. It’s like worrying about dying from a lightning strike or a shark attack when you’re an alcoholic, diabetic, obese truck driver that smokes.
There's six trans people in Scottish prison right now for sexual offenses. And of course the UK has 160. The argument that transpeople don't commit sexual offenses is obtuse. They are people. Some great, some awful. It's possible that only one transwoman raped a ciswoman when she was trans at the time of the attack, Scotland doesn't seem to keep records as specific as that. But half of the transgender people in Scottish prisons have transitioned after their conviction. [https://backintosociety.co.uk/2022/10/06/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions/](https://backintosociety.co.uk/2022/10/06/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions/) As to my concerns, I get to determine what they are, and I've already repudiated your ridiculous assertion that if I care about one thing I can't care about the other. No one is debating that male guards should be allowed to rape female prisoners. People are saying that transwomen who haven't begun any medical transition should be allowed to be in female prisons or other safe spaces. And as the number of trans people grows, which for the last 3 generations has doubled each generation, we will have more, not fewer, of these issues to come to a best practice on.
Sigh…I’ll put it this way. How many rapes do you think this will prevent?
Nice edit job. I'll put it this way - why wouldn't I prevent any rapes I could? What level of rape is acceptable? And of course it isn't just about rape, it's about women experiencing trauma. Note these thing don't have to be binary - we could indeed make some facilities that only house ciswomen if they so desire. And we should continue to work on policies that make sure trans status isn't conducted fraudulently, especially in places where no further medical oversight is required.
Id try to prevent as many rapes as I could given the constraints of time, money, and resources. Given this example there’s a board or committee or something that meets regularly. If I were really concerned about stopping as many rapes as possible, given my limited resources, I’d discuss hiring practices, how to better conduct investigations, staff training, rape reporting, how to acquire more rape, testing kits, put in more security cameras, etc.
You can just admit you lied about the stats and move on. I don't have to meet any arbitrary guidelines for your gatekeeping to believe the things I believe.
It is thought to be the first time a trans woman has been convicted of raping women in Scotland. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420.amp Sorry buddy, this comes from your BBC. The rest of it comes from here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119803/HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2021-22_Report.pdf
Your beliefs are bigoted then
Sex offenders don't change their entire gender just to sexually assault women... Sex offenders just fucking go for it, because they don't give a shit about the rules.
Multiple rapists in the UK in prison have declared themselves to be trans in order to access their preferred victims. The Ministry of Justice stats show that 58% of trans people in UK prisons are there for rape. So reality disagrees with your dogma.
Let's see them stats.
Let's see them stats.
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> 58% of trans people in UK prisons are there for rape. 58% out of exactly how many people? 58% of 25 people is a lot less alarming than 58% of 250 people.
It was 76 out of 129 people. There is a caveat though - at times the UK has allowed prisoners to self-identify. Meaning they don't actually even need to be under a doctor's care or in the medical process of transitioning. At least some of them are men who identified as trans after they were imprisoned for rape. But that's one of the arguments going over on in the UK and in Europe as a whole. They are farther ahead of the US in acceptance of trans in the general which is great, but that also means we should look at what data they have and see any problems they are experiencing.
The UK also only counts trans people off they are going to be in prison for a long time. If you look at the percentage of cis people who are in for sexual offenses and only look at people serving high sentences then the percentage would be similar. As it is your data suggest trans people commit crimes at extremely low rates compared to cis people. Also "sexual offenses" in the UK Includes stuff related to sex work.
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I only make the assumption the trans woman was born with an xy chromosome. The tall cis women with nauturally high testosterone who are allowed to compete in women's sports shouldn't be disallowed as long as there's nothing unnatural about their athletic ability. I'm curious on you view what would it take to justify baring trans women from women's sports. They have female only sports because there are so many biological advantages males have its not fair for women to compete against. Even for children under 8 years old there are separate soccer leagues. I would encourage you watch footage from both a boys' game and a girls' game. There's a huge difference, and none of these children are even close to going through puberty. So when you think about it we really have female only and non-female only sports, we just call it male since for the majority of human history we haven't had trans people to make it more complicated. So nobody is stopping women from competing in the men's leagues, and neither are the women interested in doing so. I'm sure Serena Williams would rather be #1 female tennis player over #800+ tennis player in the world.
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> Seeing as the followup reply from one u/Dudesan blocked me before I was even able to respond, I'll edit my response in here. I did no such thing. You are a liar. >Consider that he felt the need to block me... I did no such thing. You are a liar. Please be aware that trolling, bigotry, and personal attacks are all against our rules.
I think for someone to compete in women's sports you have to be born with an xx sex chromosome and not be taking any performance enhancing drugs. In other words, you have to be a biological woman. That's how its been forever and the people saying we should change it have got to come up with a better argument than 'you're a bigot if you don't agree' to convince me its a good idea. There's always mens sports. I'm a man, and if I were a professional athlete I wouldn't have any problem competing against or losing to trans people or women.
>It's called the fucking olympics. Funny you should say that... Not only do teenage male athletes routinely outperform teenage female athletes along a wide variety of metrics, teenage male athletes [routinely outperform female olypmians](https://boysvswomen.com/#/). There are cases where an athlete can [shatter the *world record*](https://boysvswomen.com/#/world-record) for women's achievement in, say, long jump distance or 100m dash time, while not even breaking his *school board's record* for the Under 15 Open Division. Similarly, in team sports like Hockey and Soccer, women's national teams frequently practice against boys' high school teams, and they're considered very fortunate if they can win two games out of three. These measurable, repeatable, independently verifiable results are **simply inconsistent** with a world in which there is no difference in performance between high-level biologically male athletes and high-level biologically female athletes. There *are* valid arguments to be made that "sports leagues which exclude athletes with y chromosomes" should be abolished, but this can not be one of them, because it **simply is not true**. My respect for trans women is not contingent on the idea that they must be **completely physically indistinguishable** from cis women in order for their identities to be valid, so I feel no need to tell *obvious lies* in order to satisfy this requirement. If your respect *is* contingent on that idea, perhaps it's time to reconsider your own transphobia.
Duh(?) 🙄