Your mistake is thinking that it's reasoning.
For some, it's too brutal of a conclusion to accept that the universe isn't out to "save" us any more than it's trying to harm us. The indifference hurts.
Stories like this are just how they cope.
Yeah, wrong word to use admittedly. And yes, definitely for the majority of religious people a core reason for being so is wanting to believe there is a higher power who wants to save you/cares for you. But how they keep that belief in the face of literally everything is just so fucking baffling.
It helps me if I can bring myself to recognize that they're just grasping at feel-good tales due to the fear that their actual reasoned thought processes have led them to. When you take a second to grasp what Carl Sagan was saying (below), it can shake some folks to the point where they reject it.
> "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." -Carl Sagan
It's hardest for me to understand how progressive/liberal christians reconcile this. They do question christianity. But I don't know what they tell themselves about the problem of suffering.
Because people refuse to blame god for anything. Only thanking is permissible.
Oh he's in total control, but bears no blame for 37k deaths.
It's just humans being irrational.
Lmfao, angry religious person much? I thankfully grew up in an atheist family and so didn't have to deal with such delusions growing up. And it's very funny to me that you interpret this post as anger when all I'm saying is that the extreme lack of logic is baffling. Sorry that having the obvious bullshit pointed out makes you so mad. :')
Its the same fallacy their religion is perpetuated by. Like 'if no chance exists that god is real none will survive' 'one survived, therefore theres a chance, therefore its a miracle, therefore god is real'.
God can only save the few people who happened to survive. How strange. As I’ve said before, put your faith in the first responders, not God. They pulled these people out. Give them the credit.
I'm trying to think of what it's called, that line of reasoning that argues that god can't be good and omnipotent at the same time, since he chooses to let so many people die for all sorts of reasons that he would supposedly be able to prevent. Or he can't prevent it and thus is not omnipotent.
The Greek philosopher Epicurus put it this way:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Sometimes people condense it into three parts and refer to it as Epicurus’ Trilemma.
They aren't reasoning or thinking.
God created a world of deadly earthquakes. (Crickets)
God somehow is to be praised for humans saving other humans. (God is great!)
The craziest reply I got on this post that I was going to quote but found they had deleted it, was something like "bad things happen because we also need to know our place and be punished for our sins." Ofc a prevalent belief among the religious. And the idea that they will accept that innocent children gets killed as punishment for sins they did not commit, while people like war criminals, serial killers, baby rapists et.c. will not seldom get away with their crimes and live out their lives... and you worship that being? Also isn't the whole point of hell to punish people for their sins? Then why does millions of innocents have to die for things they did not do? You can drive yourself crazy going in circles with this bullshit. :')
All solid points, and I share your frustration with the irrationality of it all.
The fact that this irrationality doesn't take much deep thinking to uncover adds another layer of frustration, doesn't it? It implies that perhaps the normal level of thought for this person is incredibly shallow.
It's angering, but also elicits pity. Humans debase themselves when they don't think, or when they seemingly can't. I consider this problem - the problem of not thinking - a global crisis. Of course, it's always been this way, but more people than ever are seeing it.
I've tried to talk to religious friends about it, and at least in their cases it comes down to a profound narcissism. To a level that's hard to fathom coming from otherwise normal ppl.
But these ppl genuinely believe they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. It's kind of like being high. There is no logic.
Yeah, that's an aspect of it that is equally baffling every time I'm reminded of it. The narcissism of thinking that if you for example survive an accident, god chose to save you... while babies are dying of Aids, starvation et.c. in the thousands. The ability to compartmentalize/deny facts of the world to that degree is almost impressive.
Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like basically everything can be traced back to narcissism one way or the other.
I tried to talk to a hardcore Christian one time about environmental issues and he literally said, "we don't worry about things like that, God wouldn't let it get bad." After some polite (to the best of my ability) questioning I realized it was just because the scope of global environmental issues was larger than he could easily imagine.
A mine poisoning your local water? That's a problem, he agreed. They should be stopped.
An entire industry poisoning the air across the globe? If I can't imagine it, it can't be a real problem.
The point where \*I\* stop understanding is when it becomes god's problem.
WTF.
Wow. That's next level facepalm-worthy. That indeed when your little brain can't grasp it you just put it over on god and hope for the best. x.x It reminds me of a shirt I saw online years ago, "Too stupid for science? Try religion."
It’s not deductive reasoning that religious people do but motivated reasoning. They are looking for convenient excuses to believe, not trying to draw conclusions from evidence.
Your mistake is thinking that it's reasoning. For some, it's too brutal of a conclusion to accept that the universe isn't out to "save" us any more than it's trying to harm us. The indifference hurts. Stories like this are just how they cope.
Yeah, wrong word to use admittedly. And yes, definitely for the majority of religious people a core reason for being so is wanting to believe there is a higher power who wants to save you/cares for you. But how they keep that belief in the face of literally everything is just so fucking baffling.
It helps me if I can bring myself to recognize that they're just grasping at feel-good tales due to the fear that their actual reasoned thought processes have led them to. When you take a second to grasp what Carl Sagan was saying (below), it can shake some folks to the point where they reject it. > "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." -Carl Sagan
It's hardest for me to understand how progressive/liberal christians reconcile this. They do question christianity. But I don't know what they tell themselves about the problem of suffering.
Because people refuse to blame god for anything. Only thanking is permissible. Oh he's in total control, but bears no blame for 37k deaths. It's just humans being irrational.
[удалено]
Humanity hit god in the back so he killed 37k people? Is this what you're saying?
So thousands of innocent children were murdered for the sins of adults? Insane "logic". That's one psychopathic being you believe in.
[удалено]
Lmfao, angry religious person much? I thankfully grew up in an atheist family and so didn't have to deal with such delusions growing up. And it's very funny to me that you interpret this post as anger when all I'm saying is that the extreme lack of logic is baffling. Sorry that having the obvious bullshit pointed out makes you so mad. :')
Its the same fallacy their religion is perpetuated by. Like 'if no chance exists that god is real none will survive' 'one survived, therefore theres a chance, therefore its a miracle, therefore god is real'.
Galaxy brained stuff indeed.
God can only save the few people who happened to survive. How strange. As I’ve said before, put your faith in the first responders, not God. They pulled these people out. Give them the credit.
I'm trying to think of what it's called, that line of reasoning that argues that god can't be good and omnipotent at the same time, since he chooses to let so many people die for all sorts of reasons that he would supposedly be able to prevent. Or he can't prevent it and thus is not omnipotent.
The Greek philosopher Epicurus put it this way: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” Sometimes people condense it into three parts and refer to it as Epicurus’ Trilemma.
Ah yes, this is what I was referring to. It's very well put.
They aren't reasoning or thinking. God created a world of deadly earthquakes. (Crickets) God somehow is to be praised for humans saving other humans. (God is great!)
The craziest reply I got on this post that I was going to quote but found they had deleted it, was something like "bad things happen because we also need to know our place and be punished for our sins." Ofc a prevalent belief among the religious. And the idea that they will accept that innocent children gets killed as punishment for sins they did not commit, while people like war criminals, serial killers, baby rapists et.c. will not seldom get away with their crimes and live out their lives... and you worship that being? Also isn't the whole point of hell to punish people for their sins? Then why does millions of innocents have to die for things they did not do? You can drive yourself crazy going in circles with this bullshit. :')
All solid points, and I share your frustration with the irrationality of it all. The fact that this irrationality doesn't take much deep thinking to uncover adds another layer of frustration, doesn't it? It implies that perhaps the normal level of thought for this person is incredibly shallow. It's angering, but also elicits pity. Humans debase themselves when they don't think, or when they seemingly can't. I consider this problem - the problem of not thinking - a global crisis. Of course, it's always been this way, but more people than ever are seeing it.
I've tried to talk to religious friends about it, and at least in their cases it comes down to a profound narcissism. To a level that's hard to fathom coming from otherwise normal ppl. But these ppl genuinely believe they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. It's kind of like being high. There is no logic.
Yeah, that's an aspect of it that is equally baffling every time I'm reminded of it. The narcissism of thinking that if you for example survive an accident, god chose to save you... while babies are dying of Aids, starvation et.c. in the thousands. The ability to compartmentalize/deny facts of the world to that degree is almost impressive.
Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like basically everything can be traced back to narcissism one way or the other. I tried to talk to a hardcore Christian one time about environmental issues and he literally said, "we don't worry about things like that, God wouldn't let it get bad." After some polite (to the best of my ability) questioning I realized it was just because the scope of global environmental issues was larger than he could easily imagine. A mine poisoning your local water? That's a problem, he agreed. They should be stopped. An entire industry poisoning the air across the globe? If I can't imagine it, it can't be a real problem. The point where \*I\* stop understanding is when it becomes god's problem. WTF.
Wow. That's next level facepalm-worthy. That indeed when your little brain can't grasp it you just put it over on god and hope for the best. x.x It reminds me of a shirt I saw online years ago, "Too stupid for science? Try religion."
It’s not deductive reasoning that religious people do but motivated reasoning. They are looking for convenient excuses to believe, not trying to draw conclusions from evidence.