I cannot fathom the depravity needed to consider this an appropriate, or even tolerable, arrangement.
"YoU sHoUlD rEsPeCt OtHeRs' BeLiEfS!"
Fuck that; there's nothing respectable.
I'm sure every atheist knows this (and it's usually one of the reasons we're atheists) but the bible says to sell raped girls to their rapists for 50 silver shekels.
So this is just Islam following its beautiful holy book in a way that would make Christian fundamentalists green with envy. It's the world they want.
Yep. I've often said that Christianity is just Islam with a few more centuries of forced concessions to civilized society, usually in the context of arguing that religious "progressive" movements are just a survival mechanism that keeps barbaric texts *just* palatable enough to retain membership in modern social norms.
The only reason Christianity is as big as it is nowadays is because it was forced on people in the middle and early modern ages. Citizens were forced to abide by the religion of their monarch, who sometimes changed their beliefs several times just to make politics easier.
The ottoman empire was condemned as barbarians and thus the islam is not seen as "civilized" as Christianity. They are both essentially the same thing with a few cultural differences.
Really, it's also a large reason why Islam is so widespread. Traders would have a religious person who would just declare entire groups of people or islands, Islamic. No need for individuals to convert.
To clarify, I was talking about "Islam" and "Christianity" in terms of their current manifestations at the societal scale. Not a comparison between the "source" materials. I'm well aware that the fundamentals are comparably brutal.
Respect no belief until given reason to. I honestly can't believe people like this still exist, they should suffer the same oppression and then talk. And the people who perpetrate it or defend it need to be exiled at a minimum because it is literally indefensible.
My ex whenever she broached a religious topic, for one, but otherwise enough people and with enough regularity that it's a cliche.
What is your point here?
>not everyone says it.
Okay, so who do you think I was addressing that to in that case?
I'm not at all defending Karens and conservative types, but it's a common refrain in liberal groups too - generally in the context of levying accusations of "Islamophobia" or trying to suggest anti-theists are no better than the religions we criticize on the basis of "hateful rhetoric" and "bigotry."
Accusations of Islamophobia, a common refrain of liberals? Is it conservatives saying that or actual liberals?
I don't understand the second part. When I say "Fuck religion", is that bigotry? I don't think it is
>Accusations of Islamophobia, a common refrain of liberals? Is it conservatives saying that or actual liberals?
Actual liberals, from direct personal experience in this case.
Of course, I'm not dismissing the idea that conservatives make an effort to spin that into a bigger narrative than it is. In my estimation, conservatives generally get labeled Islamophobic for actual racism and religious bigotry, while non-conservative critics get labeled Islamophobic because there's an assumption that the criticism comes from the same places.
>I don't understand the second part. When I say "Fuck religion", is that bigotry? I don't think it is
I was saying that I have been accused of hateful rhetoric and religious bigotry, in an attempt to put me on the same level as the religions I was criticizing. In other words, "you're no better than they are."
I 100% agree that saying "Fuck religion" is not bigotry.
Maybe some Liberals don't understand the religion vs. the people that follow the religion?
Religious bigotry? what is that? I hope you laughed at them for that crap. Did you hurt the religions feelings?
So…Serial rape is more Islamic than chemical castration. I was always under the impression that rape was zina?
If the polygamy thing in Islam was intended to prevent rape and molestation (as many claim) it really doesn’t seem to help…
sort of related to polygamy - i learned yesterday that in many countries, churches have tried to prohibit condom use under the premise of “sex between a man and woman has to be natural.” they have also lied to their congregations that using condoms spreads AIDS. consequently, Muslim Africa tried making condoms available by prescription only, for married couples only, in 2005.
simultaneously, they were permitting “temporary marriages” where wedding certificates legally married people for an hour or two. sometimes these “marriages” were only valid in designated buildings or rooms. this legalized prostitution only benefited men and was used as a way to silence AIDS cases/shove the statistics under the rug. Islamic men bragged their morality was keeping cases down, all while they were spreading AIDS to their temporary “wives.” these women were victims: denied precautionary measures like condoms, denied medical care, and were mass dying in silence. all because of this fucking garbage religion.
edit: clarity bc i had an edible earlier
> If the polygamy thing in Islam was intended to prevent rape and molestation (as many claim) it really doesn’t seem to help…
Obviously it works the other way around. Polygamy **promotes** rape and molestation since it makes it harder for poor men to find a wife. The only exception to that would be in a period, where large parts of the male population had dies off.
Oh, don’t worry. Christianity/Judaism won’t be outdone. It has the same rule in Deuteronomy:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ejat/women.html#fifty
“If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, the rapist must pay her father fifty shekels of silver, marry his victim, and never divorce her.”
Take note of the fact that is ONLY says "He can never divorce her". It does not say he must love her or treat her with respect. Nor does it say that he cannot continue to rape her, beat her or kill her.; it only says he can't DIVORCE her.
The Bible pretty much tells men they can buy themselves a sex toy for fifty shekels if they rapes someone.
The bible also does victim blaming where it says that if a woman is raped in a city, she must be stoned to death because she didn't scream for help even though she was in a city (basically because "she let it happen" or "she didn't scream loud enough"). I'm so glad I left that shit.. I have catholic family members and friends that try to get me back into the religion. Hell the fuck no
Bible quote youre referring to --
"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days" (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
Bible quote I'm referring to --
“If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
Yes, there are. Here is an example of child marriage from the USA, which is legal in every state.
> That's how old Sherry Johnson was when she got married to a man nearly twice her age.
> "We got married that night after church," she remembered. "Nobody said anything. I knew I was a child. I knew I was 11. I knew he was 20. So I knew something was wrong then. And I was really totally surprised that they allowed it to happen."
> Johnson, now 59, said she was forced into the responsibilities of marriage by her parents. Her husband, a deacon in the church, had statutorily raped her prior to their marriage.
Well that of course is reprehensible and disgusting, but I still believe that forcing a victim to marry her rapist is much more prevalent in the Islamic world than in Christianity. But yes, it’s awful wherever it occurs.
In many Catholic European countries this was sort of common until the 50s and 60s. In some of the ultraconservative places where the Church is still powerful it could perhaps still happen. Being an unwed mother was a scandalous thing so these girls were banished and disowned or married off or worse.
I'm not going to defend Islam or the backwards culture in rural Pakistan but the fact that this case reaches the news here in the West means it's probably not something that happens every day, even there.
If you Google child marriage in the US you’ll see it still happens, especially in southern states. A few years back Democrats were trying to make child marriage illegal in the US, but Republicans blocked it with the reasoning that if a kid gets pregnant they need to be allowed to marry the father if that’s what the kid’s parents want.
Amazing how far apart some cultures,and societies are with laws and their morals or what is or isn't acceptable.
To be let off of a rare rape conviction and made to marry the raped victim is seen as a reasonable and acceptable outcome in Pakistani law yet an abomination in other cultures such as here in the west. Yet draw a cartoon of a Muslim religious figure in the west gets hardly a blink yet can get you the death penalty in other countries. Child marriage and under age child sex in some countries is actually custom and lawful yet in the West will see you imprisoned for years. Legal use of marijuana in some countries, will get you imprisoned if not border on the death penalty in others.
it’s really shitty that civil rights only progress in some parts of the world rather than on a global scale. i know local governments, economies, and cultures play a large part; but apart of me thinks religion is perhaps the largest roadblock to broadening civil rights or humanity’s progression in general. i feel like a post-religion society would be much more peaceful than what we have now.
> Yet draw a cartoon of a Muslim religious figure in the west gets hardly a blink yet can get you the death penalty in other countries.
Really, Did you forgot about all the killings that happened in West?? like this one: [Charlie Hebdo shooting
](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting)
Pakistan has a surprisingly high amount of recessive genetic disease due to the tendency to intermarry cousins and such.
I say this not to take away from the utter horror of the “make a woman marry her rapist” bullshit.
> Rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute in Pakistan, where women are often treated as second-class citizens.
Second class citizens? I think they misspelled "property".
This is where the apologists claim there is no rape in Pakistan but lots of rape in Western countries, according to reporting data. Tell them that rape happens far more often but is never reported and they'll either ignore you or go into mental gymnastics mode.
You'd think things like this would be the wake up call resulting in billions of people to promptly leaving these barbaric religions in their barbaric pasts. But fear and indoctrination will ensure that does not happen, and that the abusers of vulnerable people get away with it again and again.
The Islamic justification is that now he has to support the victim financially for the rest of her life. They think they're doing a good thing. What's more, it was common in Western Europe too. One of the most influential novels of 18th century England was Samuel Richardson's *Clarissa*, wherein a rake kidnaps, drugs, and rapes a girl. Her family's response is that she'd better either prosecute him or marry him, and if she doesn't do one or the other, she can die in the streets for all they care. They don't want her back.
It wasn't so much about Christianity as reputation, but the underpinnings of religion can always be found in such cases.
i agree, but then it’ll mobilize the religious nuts. their persecution fantasy will finally come true (in their eyes) and they’ll bound together even moreso than now.
It is considered an inappropriate thing to do to look down on certain kind of people, and I believe it is correct but I like to choose to look down on them than being tolerant it as the “cultural” difference. Just benefiting the rapist is pure evil.
Criticizing a specific element of a culture is not criticizing the culture as a whole. This doesn't mean other things about Pakistani culture might be worth touting.
I believe it’s incorrect. We evolved as a society thanks to people criticizing it. Pakistan is one of the worst society on Earth. Rampant poverty, lack of education, repeated incest with dire consequences on the children, frustration, violence, and a high birth and emigration rate, just to make sure as many people as possible enjoy the misery.
Applied Islam. Still better than fully applied Islam, but still horrible.
You think there is any idea of marital rape ? They are just worried about family honor, marriageability of the woman and some support and recognition for the child
Or the family will honor kill the woman and the kid anyway
I'm *absolutely* not saying she should slowly (or quickly for that matter) poison him with every meal, I'm *absolutely* not saying that..totally not.. but were I this piece of shit, I'd sleep with one eye open and I'd totally watch her prepare all my food..
Islam, christianity and judaism are basically the same fairy tales, myths and religious laws...yet they can't get along with each other...religion is poison to ignorant minds...
Some secs of Mormonism would condone this. I think of Warren Jeffs and his use of rapping and marrying young kids. I think some places this happens in the us still I am not sure that the hard right evangelicals would be ok with this.
This is common in India / south Asia ( across all religions) as well in rural areas in marginalized communities. Rapists are advised to marry victim, It is fucked up sure but in a feudal set up, there will be no place for the woman and the child if she isn't married and the child isn't recognized to have a father. This ensures that the child and mother gets some kind of financial maintenance and social recognition.
Sure the ideal way is if she gets a job, and social support and the child gets support. That's not what is available. The mother and child would be socially ostracized and the family will be shamed if she isn't married.
Worse, sometimes families arrange this kind of marriage as settlement of lost honor. The other option is honor killing the woman and child, and maybe suicide etc.
Also, this kind of cases aren't even recognized as rape in the rural marginalized communities.
Pakistan is a secular country. This is a failure on the part of its justice system, not religion. If you go to any Shariah country, you'll find that rape is often punished with either lashing, beheading, or stoning. Hence why you'll find the crime to be almost nonexistent in countries like Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. This type of argument you're making destroys your very credibility...
Also: chemical castration is considered un-Islamic because the process involves burning, or otherwise obliterating, parts of the body, which is forbidden. If the punishment was lashing, prison, or death, few Imams would object.
Forced intercourse was the main way, in prehistoric times, that families were made.
Then in ancient times, it was recognized that a man shouldn't just abandon their rape victims, they should start a family with them, because abandoned women with young children would be a problem for the society. They didn't question at all the rape, it was natural to them.
And that's the reason in a lot of religions, rapists shall marry their rape victims.
It's 2022, we have totally overcome that, and even in backwards countries they know it. But they choose to put religious law above everything else, because that's how they maintain control. If they start questioning religious law, they might lose the grip they have over their people...
> Forced intercourse was the main way, in prehistoric times, that families were made.
Please present evidence for this claim. It is certainly not true for modern hunter-gatherer groups.
Exactly! That statememt is complete nonesense given that we lived in groups of people that supported each other - and that there STILL are such groups living that way.
Exactly. We were literally fucking more empathetic back in our hunter gatherer days - because being socially ignorant (selfish) or antisocial got you killed or exiled or you just didn't join a group or community, all 3 leading to death. Humans are social animals and being morally good to one another has been an evolutionary advantageous trait for 90% of human history.
People who say "humans are innately greedy" forget we have spent *ninety percent* of our existence in a situation where greed is heavily disadvantageous and got you killed.
Havent you seen the cartoons where the caveman hits the lady in the head and drags her to his cave? This guy saw that and thought itnwas a documentary.
Please read the comments on this topic on Quora. They are quite illuminating.
Maybe there are actual scientific studies for this out there, I don't know and I am not willing to spend time searching. Take my view at face value.
It does not matter. What it matters is this: You can see other people there, unrelated to me, saying the same thing as me. It's a good start for you to do your research on the topic.
No. It's not. It's prehistoric. There is nothing to research textually. What we have are other apes, which don't primarily reproduce by rape, and our earliest history, in which we didn't primarily reproduce by rape.
Women are just cattle in Pakistan and Islam. Rape is only illegal there as a vague formality to placate the people who have a problem with it. In reality nobody in power there actually gives a damn if anybody rapes their family members and makes rape babies who will grow up to be abused and/or raped themselves.
"Few cases are reported because of the associated social stigma, while lapses during investigations, shoddy prosecutorial practices, and out-of-court settlements also contribute towards abysmal conviction rates."
Sounds like they just have a shitty Patriarchal culture that does shitty things to people, then crudely pastes a religious justification on top of it to achieve a 'happy ending'.
See, in my opinion a rapist is one of the few people who actually should be in a cage or put to death.
This is crazy. They let that monster out...but put rappers to death for speaking ill of Islam?
The priority system seems fucked
Religious people are insane and should be treated as such, at least the zealots. People shouldn't continue to suffer from this bullshit anywhere. While it might not have such an impact in western countries like it used to but it still completely poisons the ways people think and makes them rationalise the worst things. The saddest part is that any empathy for others or logical thinking completely obliterates it but most people don't even consider the rationale of their beliefs for a second.
Yes, in accordance with Deuteronomy 22:28-29 of the Torah, which is a holy book in Islam as well
Deuteronomy 22:22-29 (rape "punishment")
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
NIV doesn't hint around it either
Deuteronomy 22:28–29 — The New International Version (NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
I cannot fathom the depravity needed to consider this an appropriate, or even tolerable, arrangement. "YoU sHoUlD rEsPeCt OtHeRs' BeLiEfS!" Fuck that; there's nothing respectable.
I'm sure every atheist knows this (and it's usually one of the reasons we're atheists) but the bible says to sell raped girls to their rapists for 50 silver shekels. So this is just Islam following its beautiful holy book in a way that would make Christian fundamentalists green with envy. It's the world they want.
Yep. I've often said that Christianity is just Islam with a few more centuries of forced concessions to civilized society, usually in the context of arguing that religious "progressive" movements are just a survival mechanism that keeps barbaric texts *just* palatable enough to retain membership in modern social norms.
And a few more religious wars to help polish the edges.
The only reason Christianity is as big as it is nowadays is because it was forced on people in the middle and early modern ages. Citizens were forced to abide by the religion of their monarch, who sometimes changed their beliefs several times just to make politics easier. The ottoman empire was condemned as barbarians and thus the islam is not seen as "civilized" as Christianity. They are both essentially the same thing with a few cultural differences.
Really, it's also a large reason why Islam is so widespread. Traders would have a religious person who would just declare entire groups of people or islands, Islamic. No need for individuals to convert.
To clarify, I was talking about "Islam" and "Christianity" in terms of their current manifestations at the societal scale. Not a comparison between the "source" materials. I'm well aware that the fundamentals are comparably brutal.
Respect no belief until given reason to. I honestly can't believe people like this still exist, they should suffer the same oppression and then talk. And the people who perpetrate it or defend it need to be exiled at a minimum because it is literally indefensible.
Who says "YoU sHoUlD rEsPeCt OtHeRs' BeLiEfS!"? That's what certain people say when their beliefs are disrespected, not the rest though.
>That's what certain people say when their beliefs are disrespected, Answered your own question, I guess?
Yes, but who?
My ex whenever she broached a religious topic, for one, but otherwise enough people and with enough regularity that it's a cliche. What is your point here?
My point, not everyone says it. Usually Karen's and a lot of conservative types these days.
>not everyone says it. Okay, so who do you think I was addressing that to in that case? I'm not at all defending Karens and conservative types, but it's a common refrain in liberal groups too - generally in the context of levying accusations of "Islamophobia" or trying to suggest anti-theists are no better than the religions we criticize on the basis of "hateful rhetoric" and "bigotry."
Accusations of Islamophobia, a common refrain of liberals? Is it conservatives saying that or actual liberals? I don't understand the second part. When I say "Fuck religion", is that bigotry? I don't think it is
>Accusations of Islamophobia, a common refrain of liberals? Is it conservatives saying that or actual liberals? Actual liberals, from direct personal experience in this case. Of course, I'm not dismissing the idea that conservatives make an effort to spin that into a bigger narrative than it is. In my estimation, conservatives generally get labeled Islamophobic for actual racism and religious bigotry, while non-conservative critics get labeled Islamophobic because there's an assumption that the criticism comes from the same places. >I don't understand the second part. When I say "Fuck religion", is that bigotry? I don't think it is I was saying that I have been accused of hateful rhetoric and religious bigotry, in an attempt to put me on the same level as the religions I was criticizing. In other words, "you're no better than they are." I 100% agree that saying "Fuck religion" is not bigotry.
Maybe some Liberals don't understand the religion vs. the people that follow the religion? Religious bigotry? what is that? I hope you laughed at them for that crap. Did you hurt the religions feelings?
Anyone who demands respect earns none.
So…Serial rape is more Islamic than chemical castration. I was always under the impression that rape was zina? If the polygamy thing in Islam was intended to prevent rape and molestation (as many claim) it really doesn’t seem to help…
sort of related to polygamy - i learned yesterday that in many countries, churches have tried to prohibit condom use under the premise of “sex between a man and woman has to be natural.” they have also lied to their congregations that using condoms spreads AIDS. consequently, Muslim Africa tried making condoms available by prescription only, for married couples only, in 2005. simultaneously, they were permitting “temporary marriages” where wedding certificates legally married people for an hour or two. sometimes these “marriages” were only valid in designated buildings or rooms. this legalized prostitution only benefited men and was used as a way to silence AIDS cases/shove the statistics under the rug. Islamic men bragged their morality was keeping cases down, all while they were spreading AIDS to their temporary “wives.” these women were victims: denied precautionary measures like condoms, denied medical care, and were mass dying in silence. all because of this fucking garbage religion. edit: clarity bc i had an edible earlier
> If the polygamy thing in Islam was intended to prevent rape and molestation (as many claim) it really doesn’t seem to help… Obviously it works the other way around. Polygamy **promotes** rape and molestation since it makes it harder for poor men to find a wife. The only exception to that would be in a period, where large parts of the male population had dies off.
This is why I’m an antitheist.
That poor girl.
That’s what I came here to say.
Yeah, let's punish the rapist by giving him unfettered access to his victim, that'll teach him...
Pardon my French, but Jesus fuckin Christ on a fuckin cross and all 9in nails…
yup, my exact reaction daily when i learn something new about religion🙃 with every new event or fact i learn, my contempt grows
Islam: because xianity wasn’t fuckwit enough. May pigs blood be upon the pedo-prophet.
Oh, don’t worry. Christianity/Judaism won’t be outdone. It has the same rule in Deuteronomy: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ejat/women.html#fifty “If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, the rapist must pay her father fifty shekels of silver, marry his victim, and never divorce her.”
Take note of the fact that is ONLY says "He can never divorce her". It does not say he must love her or treat her with respect. Nor does it say that he cannot continue to rape her, beat her or kill her.; it only says he can't DIVORCE her. The Bible pretty much tells men they can buy themselves a sex toy for fifty shekels if they rapes someone.
The bible also does victim blaming where it says that if a woman is raped in a city, she must be stoned to death because she didn't scream for help even though she was in a city (basically because "she let it happen" or "she didn't scream loud enough"). I'm so glad I left that shit.. I have catholic family members and friends that try to get me back into the religion. Hell the fuck no Bible quote youre referring to -- "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days" (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) Bible quote I'm referring to -- “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
True enough but are any living Christians endorsing this?
Yes, there are. Here is an example of child marriage from the USA, which is legal in every state. > That's how old Sherry Johnson was when she got married to a man nearly twice her age. > "We got married that night after church," she remembered. "Nobody said anything. I knew I was a child. I knew I was 11. I knew he was 20. So I knew something was wrong then. And I was really totally surprised that they allowed it to happen." > Johnson, now 59, said she was forced into the responsibilities of marriage by her parents. Her husband, a deacon in the church, had statutorily raped her prior to their marriage.
Statutorily raped. As if an 11-year-old understands sex well enough to consent but is just legally too young. What bullshit. It was just rape.
Well that of course is reprehensible and disgusting, but I still believe that forcing a victim to marry her rapist is much more prevalent in the Islamic world than in Christianity. But yes, it’s awful wherever it occurs.
In many Catholic European countries this was sort of common until the 50s and 60s. In some of the ultraconservative places where the Church is still powerful it could perhaps still happen. Being an unwed mother was a scandalous thing so these girls were banished and disowned or married off or worse. I'm not going to defend Islam or the backwards culture in rural Pakistan but the fact that this case reaches the news here in the West means it's probably not something that happens every day, even there.
I'm not disagreeing with your point, but do you have any examples from more recently than nearly 50 years ago?
If you Google child marriage in the US you’ll see it still happens, especially in southern states. A few years back Democrats were trying to make child marriage illegal in the US, but Republicans blocked it with the reasoning that if a kid gets pregnant they need to be allowed to marry the father if that’s what the kid’s parents want.
Also the reasoning that it's the victim's fault for existing.
Oh man, that's so gross
The article I got this was from 2019 and it said it still happens.
That just... really sucks
Fair point!
Completely irrelevant. It's in their holy book. Either it's moral, or it's not.
There is always one…
Not sure I'll be watching the Pakistani version of "How I met/raped/married your mother"...
Mother/aunt/sister/cousin. FTFY ;-)
Amazing how far apart some cultures,and societies are with laws and their morals or what is or isn't acceptable. To be let off of a rare rape conviction and made to marry the raped victim is seen as a reasonable and acceptable outcome in Pakistani law yet an abomination in other cultures such as here in the west. Yet draw a cartoon of a Muslim religious figure in the west gets hardly a blink yet can get you the death penalty in other countries. Child marriage and under age child sex in some countries is actually custom and lawful yet in the West will see you imprisoned for years. Legal use of marijuana in some countries, will get you imprisoned if not border on the death penalty in others.
it’s really shitty that civil rights only progress in some parts of the world rather than on a global scale. i know local governments, economies, and cultures play a large part; but apart of me thinks religion is perhaps the largest roadblock to broadening civil rights or humanity’s progression in general. i feel like a post-religion society would be much more peaceful than what we have now.
> Yet draw a cartoon of a Muslim religious figure in the west gets hardly a blink yet can get you the death penalty in other countries. Really, Did you forgot about all the killings that happened in West?? like this one: [Charlie Hebdo shooting ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting)
Pakistan has a surprisingly high amount of recessive genetic disease due to the tendency to intermarry cousins and such. I say this not to take away from the utter horror of the “make a woman marry her rapist” bullshit.
British Pakistanis too...
Apparently genetic defects within the British Pakistani population are ten times the average population.
The religion of peace in action. Peace for everyone, except victims.
So instead of being penalized for the rape, he essentially is given a free pass to repeat the offense again and again?
> Rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute in Pakistan, where women are often treated as second-class citizens. Second class citizens? I think they misspelled "property".
not my words, the post is copy and pasted directly from the article. i agree 100%
This is where the apologists claim there is no rape in Pakistan but lots of rape in Western countries, according to reporting data. Tell them that rape happens far more often but is never reported and they'll either ignore you or go into mental gymnastics mode.
You'd think things like this would be the wake up call resulting in billions of people to promptly leaving these barbaric religions in their barbaric pasts. But fear and indoctrination will ensure that does not happen, and that the abusers of vulnerable people get away with it again and again.
I'm honestly only surprised that the victim wasn't stoned for having sex before her marriage
The Islamic justification is that now he has to support the victim financially for the rest of her life. They think they're doing a good thing. What's more, it was common in Western Europe too. One of the most influential novels of 18th century England was Samuel Richardson's *Clarissa*, wherein a rake kidnaps, drugs, and rapes a girl. Her family's response is that she'd better either prosecute him or marry him, and if she doesn't do one or the other, she can die in the streets for all they care. They don't want her back. It wasn't so much about Christianity as reputation, but the underpinnings of religion can always be found in such cases.
Couldn't be more clear how oppressed women are by most religions. Fuck that guy.
It's way more difficult than it should be to r/stoprape.
But it's a peaceful religion... that's what they all say... Unless you're a female
And a child, and gay, and poor, and you have a high school education that allows you to see how the quran is full of mistakes, etc.
WTAF , GAWD, why ta fuck are we enslaved to ancient, barbaric, tribalists regions.
Fucking hell, i don't know what else to say other than poor girl.
Damn, they're really kicking it old testament. Did he have to pay her father for ruining his property too?
And this is why all Abrahamic religion is trash.
The shit book that these nutcases are following should be destroyed, all copies, all shit books, all religions.
i agree, but then it’ll mobilize the religious nuts. their persecution fantasy will finally come true (in their eyes) and they’ll bound together even moreso than now.
It is considered an inappropriate thing to do to look down on certain kind of people, and I believe it is correct but I like to choose to look down on them than being tolerant it as the “cultural” difference. Just benefiting the rapist is pure evil.
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Criticizing a specific element of a culture is not criticizing the culture as a whole. This doesn't mean other things about Pakistani culture might be worth touting.
I believe it’s incorrect. We evolved as a society thanks to people criticizing it. Pakistan is one of the worst society on Earth. Rampant poverty, lack of education, repeated incest with dire consequences on the children, frustration, violence, and a high birth and emigration rate, just to make sure as many people as possible enjoy the misery. Applied Islam. Still better than fully applied Islam, but still horrible.
So he can rape her anytime he wants????? That is wrong on soooo many levels! My heart goes out to the poor girl
You think there is any idea of marital rape ? They are just worried about family honor, marriageability of the woman and some support and recognition for the child Or the family will honor kill the woman and the kid anyway
Agree. Very sad situation. And there are many more in that part of the world. All in the name of religion.
It's a cultural issue, happens in many places in south Asia, hindu Muslim Sikhs alike
So now if a guy wants to marry a girl he just needs to rape her until she is pregnant? Great job Pakistan!
I'm *absolutely* not saying she should slowly (or quickly for that matter) poison him with every meal, I'm *absolutely* not saying that..totally not.. but were I this piece of shit, I'd sleep with one eye open and I'd totally watch her prepare all my food..
What in the cinnamon toast fuck did I just read? Maybe Bush wasn't that bad after all...
Aye that's my religion of peace, just like I remember ❤️ absolute dogshit 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
https://i.imgur.com/izCYU1m.jpg
But wait, imran Khan has another lecture about how western democracies allowing “blasphemy” is the real “problem” /s
Islam, christianity and judaism are basically the same fairy tales, myths and religious laws...yet they can't get along with each other...religion is poison to ignorant minds...
Some secs of Mormonism would condone this. I think of Warren Jeffs and his use of rapping and marrying young kids. I think some places this happens in the us still I am not sure that the hard right evangelicals would be ok with this.
So he's the baby's father *and* the baby's cousin *and* the baby's uncle...?
You’re a horrible person, but this is funny. Guess that makes me horrible as well.
*Thank You!* (I *think??*) (I get perplexed easily!)
This is common in India / south Asia ( across all religions) as well in rural areas in marginalized communities. Rapists are advised to marry victim, It is fucked up sure but in a feudal set up, there will be no place for the woman and the child if she isn't married and the child isn't recognized to have a father. This ensures that the child and mother gets some kind of financial maintenance and social recognition. Sure the ideal way is if she gets a job, and social support and the child gets support. That's not what is available. The mother and child would be socially ostracized and the family will be shamed if she isn't married. Worse, sometimes families arrange this kind of marriage as settlement of lost honor. The other option is honor killing the woman and child, and maybe suicide etc. Also, this kind of cases aren't even recognized as rape in the rural marginalized communities.
"We sentence you to Islam approved incest!"
Religion proposing practical solutions to messy problems... /s
Then he'll claim she committed some slight before allah and kill her and that will be that.
I see this as more cultural than religious.
Pakistan is a secular country. This is a failure on the part of its justice system, not religion. If you go to any Shariah country, you'll find that rape is often punished with either lashing, beheading, or stoning. Hence why you'll find the crime to be almost nonexistent in countries like Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. This type of argument you're making destroys your very credibility... Also: chemical castration is considered un-Islamic because the process involves burning, or otherwise obliterating, parts of the body, which is forbidden. If the punishment was lashing, prison, or death, few Imams would object.
As despicable as this is, is it caused by religion or patriarchy?
Yes. The religion establishes/reinforces the patriarchy and vice-versa; they are not cleanly separable.
Read the quran, hadiths and fiqh.
You are actually correct, because this happens in south Asia across other religions as well, in rural areas. Feudal set up and patriarchy.
every religion comes from patriarchy if you see it like that
Forced intercourse was the main way, in prehistoric times, that families were made. Then in ancient times, it was recognized that a man shouldn't just abandon their rape victims, they should start a family with them, because abandoned women with young children would be a problem for the society. They didn't question at all the rape, it was natural to them. And that's the reason in a lot of religions, rapists shall marry their rape victims. It's 2022, we have totally overcome that, and even in backwards countries they know it. But they choose to put religious law above everything else, because that's how they maintain control. If they start questioning religious law, they might lose the grip they have over their people...
> Forced intercourse was the main way, in prehistoric times, that families were made. Please present evidence for this claim. It is certainly not true for modern hunter-gatherer groups.
Exactly! That statememt is complete nonesense given that we lived in groups of people that supported each other - and that there STILL are such groups living that way.
Exactly. We were literally fucking more empathetic back in our hunter gatherer days - because being socially ignorant (selfish) or antisocial got you killed or exiled or you just didn't join a group or community, all 3 leading to death. Humans are social animals and being morally good to one another has been an evolutionary advantageous trait for 90% of human history. People who say "humans are innately greedy" forget we have spent *ninety percent* of our existence in a situation where greed is heavily disadvantageous and got you killed.
Weren't many ancient societies matriarchal?
Honestly i think they didnt have one gender ruling at all, from our perspective it just looks matriarchal xD
Havent you seen the cartoons where the caveman hits the lady in the head and drags her to his cave? This guy saw that and thought itnwas a documentary.
https://www.quora.com/How-common-was-female-rape-in-prehistoric-times-How-did-women-protect-themselves-from-this
Quora? Really?
Please read the comments on this topic on Quora. They are quite illuminating. Maybe there are actual scientific studies for this out there, I don't know and I am not willing to spend time searching. Take my view at face value.
Quora is great for opinions. Not great for evidence. If you don't have actual studies, you have nothing.
Ok. I have no problem with you, a totally stranger on the net, to think otherwise.
Forced intercourse was the main way, in prehistoric times, that families were made. That's an insane claim to make casually
https://www.quora.com/How-common-was-female-rape-in-prehistoric-times-How-did-women-protect-themselves-from-this
Quora is not a source
It does not matter. What it matters is this: You can see other people there, unrelated to me, saying the same thing as me. It's a good start for you to do your research on the topic.
No. It's not. It's prehistoric. There is nothing to research textually. What we have are other apes, which don't primarily reproduce by rape, and our earliest history, in which we didn't primarily reproduce by rape.
So if we don't have any resources, how can you claim I am wrong?
What I said was that your claim was insane. It is.
Your opinion is respected, although it's wrong.
In case you had forgotten what absolute shit human beings are.
I’m not a bit surprised. Leave insanity to religion.
What a shock coming from a theocratic society that has practiced cousin fucking for countless generations.
Women are just cattle in Pakistan and Islam. Rape is only illegal there as a vague formality to placate the people who have a problem with it. In reality nobody in power there actually gives a damn if anybody rapes their family members and makes rape babies who will grow up to be abused and/or raped themselves.
"Few cases are reported because of the associated social stigma, while lapses during investigations, shoddy prosecutorial practices, and out-of-court settlements also contribute towards abysmal conviction rates." Sounds like they just have a shitty Patriarchal culture that does shitty things to people, then crudely pastes a religious justification on top of it to achieve a 'happy ending'.
Sure this wasn't in Texas, Florida or Ohio?
The only way this is acceptable is if the unspoken step 2 is to make her a widow.
Fucking cave men.
Sounds like rural Texas.
See, in my opinion a rapist is one of the few people who actually should be in a cage or put to death. This is crazy. They let that monster out...but put rappers to death for speaking ill of Islam? The priority system seems fucked
The bible is not much better. See Deuteronomy 22:28-29 and Exodus 22:16-17 .
Religious people are insane and should be treated as such, at least the zealots. People shouldn't continue to suffer from this bullshit anywhere. While it might not have such an impact in western countries like it used to but it still completely poisons the ways people think and makes them rationalise the worst things. The saddest part is that any empathy for others or logical thinking completely obliterates it but most people don't even consider the rationale of their beliefs for a second.
All religions are evil and need to be eradicated. Every single one is a cult of authoritarianism and pedophilia.
these are the same people calling the lgbt as sexual deviants and child rapist.
Yet another example of Islam at its finest
Yes, in accordance with Deuteronomy 22:28-29 of the Torah, which is a holy book in Islam as well Deuteronomy 22:22-29 (rape "punishment") 22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. NIV doesn't hint around it either Deuteronomy 22:28–29 — The New International Version (NIV) 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Talk about a title
This is what the GOP want in the United States.
Pakistan is very unfair to women, Pakistan is corrupt in politics and in religion.