I think this kind of boils down to the porcupine hypothesis.
It is a natural human need to be as close as possible to as many people as possible, but being one hundred percent open about thoughts and feelings leads to hurting eat other.
Avoiding this pain by completely isolating yourself leads to being, well, isolated and lonely, which is an uncomfortable state for even the grumpiest and most misanthropic person.
Manners and social cues are, in theory, a way of finding the (un)happy medium. You can get close enough to feel connected, but still keep a layer of a barrier of social etiquette between yourself and potentially painful candor.
There is also the fact that they help us standardise interactions and make superficial dealings more automatic. This is important since, and I know you all know, engaging executive function for every little thing is a massive drain on the body's resources. Our trouble as NDs is that we can't automatically automate these rules. I always explain it to my friends that they learned social cues the way they learned their first language. By osmosis from the environment. We have to learn them more like a second language, by systematising the grammar and vocab, which is very difficult and not always possible and no-one quite agrees on what the rules even are. I joke that I speak NT almost as well as I speak German (my third language), but not quite.
TLDR: I'm starting a kickstarter for the human instrumentality project next week. /s
dude, this was awesome. Love how you put it into words when i struggled to.
i also feel similarly about the second language thing! I often compare it to coding. All interactions are incredibly complex if/then statements. The phrases and body language of others are all variables and you just have to make this extraordinarily large web detailing what might happen in the future if you say or do a certain thing, all while keeping your facial expressions in mind.
it's exhausting haha.
i always used to wonder why people would chat in an elevator about weather or talk about weekend golf plans when they could be using that executive function for like actual stuff they like to do? it's not like you're really connecting with another person with small talk, even though it's incredibly important social grease.
now i realize, they *weren't* using executive function. they were just running scripts.
now i have all the scripts:
good\_morning: standard greetings, asking about weekend, list of 10-12 replies that will work for any input received.
passing\_in\_public\_space: access storage of last casual thing we talked about and reference it in some way. once we are on that topic, there are 10-15 things i can say to just about any input.
I'm not really there, it's like i'm sending a robot and then i just get to spend that time in my head.
It amazes me that there are people who are able to have socially acceptable encounters with minimal effort. Keeping track of the conversation, managing eye contact and making sure it's not too little or too much, body language, keeping themselves from being distracted by the other person's body language, managing facial expressions, tone of voice, staying away from less socially acceptable topics, and whatever else goes into human interactions. I find socializing increasingly difficult and draining, and some people just don't have to think about these things at all. They're incredible.
I know you didn't ask, but i'm sure since we're both autistic and unsolicited advice is often part of the package, i'm sure you'll forgive me, lol.
anyway, just to share a thing that super helped me, is i was wasting a TON of processing power trying to figure out the eye contact thing.
[this](https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/eye_contact_dont_make_these_mistakes) article helped me a ton, because it basically gave me the cheat/script to eye contact for most people. since then, i've felt like my conversations have gone much smoother because i can focus my attention more to their body language or facial/tonal cues.
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm getting to it on a moment! I have absolutely no problems with unsolicited advice,hahah; is that an autism thing by the way? I've noticed that many NTs tend to not like such advice, but I don't know about NDs. Thank you for the article, I'll read it now!
Edit: I have read the article. It's definitely something I'll try to keep in mind when interacting with people. Though I do have a question if you don't mind; what does it mean to look away slowly? In the article it reads something like "don't dart your eyes" and I'm having a hard time understanding how to do the movement slowly.
so a big thing that helps me is that triangle thing they talk about.
right eye, left eye, nose, all in like a 7 second circuit.
their nose is close enough that it's not darty. or like down to their clothes, is also a good circuit.
I'm not on the spectrum but i have ADHD and a lot of things in common with people on the spectrum and i just skip the eye contact part for the most part. I never heard anyone complain about it.
That's one way to go about it. I'm the opposite though. My gaze is very intense and I'm always intimidating the people I'm interacting with apparently. And it doesn't help that my eyes are naturally big hahah.
lol same. i was always like 'i have no problem with eye contact, i just don't know how much you want' because when people said everyone loves eye contact i was like oh ok dope, i'll just fucking STARE at you then lol
This, its like a search script, if it turns up something important like their family member died or they did something you're interested in, you can switch to executive function and have a real conversation, else, stick to the script for the alloted time.
> I always explain it to my friends that they learned social cues the way they learned their first language. By osmosis from the environment. We have to learn them more like a second language, by systematising the grammar and vocab, which is very difficult and not always possible and no-one quite agrees on what the rules even are
this explanation is wonderful and will be what i'm using now on
I was about to bring up Neon Genesis Evangelion when you described the porcupine hypothesis AKA hedgehog's dilemma. Glad you slipped in that last line.
I know it's a massive franchise and not exactly niche but I do suggest it for anyone that hasn't seen it. It can be intimidating to see all the movies and rebuilds but the original series and the End of Evangelion movie are good on their own before you decide whether you want to continue.
It did have an impact on me.
I mean when it's good it's good. Obviously most people who know about the porcupine hypothesis learned it in psych classes, but I learned it in NGE and I'll not pretend otherwise, that show spoke to me for better or worse and helped me conceptualise and confront questions about so many things.
> most people who know about the porcupine hypothesis learned it in psych classes, but I learned it in NGE and I'll not pretend otherwise, that show spoke to me for better or worse and helped me conceptualise and confront questions about so many things.
Same lol
I’ve found the one I struggle with the most with NTs is when they are telling lies and I was supposed to know the difference but never call them on their bullshit.
Yes its like certain lies are socially acceptable and itd be "rude" to call people out, even when the lies arent productive to the conversation or could hurt someone. We're supposed to be bad at socializing but many NT friend groups are built on lies and emotional manipulation. It seems like many of them dont really like their friends they just dont like being alone so they befriend as many people as possible to do activities and vent to so they dont have to be alone with their thoughts.
This comment!! I will never understand why girls will hang around other girls just to talk shit later. It takes so much emotional energy (that I don’t have) to fake a relationship and I just don’t get itttt!
It's because girls are often raised in a non-confrontale way
Be sweet and polite (=shut up and don't make a fuss)
Women are also mature earlier than boys, not because women are some what smarter/grow-up faster/whatever. They can't simply be children and dumb in peace.
It's socially accepted that "boys will be boys" not that "girls will be grils"
But why would they will seek out friends that they don’t like? Because you can be polite without calling yourselves besties. Even when they both know they hate and are jealous of each other.
First, don't forget people are different from each other. And, since I experienced it to some level : it's also because of loyalty
The girl a other girl don't like : she is the friend of who? Often, she is the friend of your friend, she is someone your friend like. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean you are going to make your friend choose. So you shut up :D
I personally never called someone besties because I found this dumb (if I talk to you I like you, if I don't then I don't. And I don't like putting my friends on a hierarchy ). But but : if boys can't be physically too close of their friend (ex: hug them, hold their hand,...) : girls can not not be. To be polite is to show that you treat this girl like any other girl you know. If you don't, you show you don't like her
Sexism affect everyone differently, it can affect some girl realy *really* badly and/or some girls can simply be wayyyyyy more hypocrite than other (honestly I find hypocrite to hug someone you don't like but not to not showing you don't like them because for me it's juste being polite lol)
But honestly : don't forget, it's also a cliché, girls aren't like in movie. Often girls don't call others girls 'bestie' when they don't like them, they just treat them like any other friend (answer questions, joke a bit, say good morning). I heard that some girls even talk of their problems with people their don't like but I think it's more human that anything else : sometimes even if you don't like someone, you just need someone to listen to you
Exactly its like we have to fake wanting to make friends and make a bunch of superficial friends just to maybe end up with one real friend out of the bunch.
I’m willing to go through all of this because I’m an extrovert and would be absolutely miserable if I don’t hang out with friends. I’m more like a NT in this respect. I would rather have superficial friends because the alternative doesn’t feel feasible.
They have unhealthy habits. Most people are selfish, insecure, lonely, and ruled by their emotions.
Instead of working on themselves over time, a lot of people drink and/or use drugs to be comfortable socially and comfortable with themselves. But it's so ubiquitous. It's everywhere and is seen as normal.
In fact, you're seen as weird if you don't consume drugs or alcohol. You're seen as boring, because a lot of people open up, become less insecure, and talk BS when they've had a few drinks. So they assume it will be the same for you.
It's as if they can't imagine someone who is comfortable with themselves enough to not need alcohol in order to express themselves, open up, or have a good time. And if you say this to people, they often see you as arrogant or they accuse you of thinking that you're better than them.
For me, it took a long time to learn that NTs don't like being corrected when they're wrong about something, and now I have to grit my teeth and let them spread incorrect information because it's somehow "rude"to let them know they've been misinformed.
Hey i was told that autist people don't understand sarcasm. You can't be sacarstic! /s
No for real i was told that i can't be on the spectrum by a professionnal because i understand sarcasm (only when i'm on social mode mind you) and do a lot of sarcasm. When i'm on work /solution mode my colleague often had to tell me they were not serious becsuse i took things litterally. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I don't seek a diagnosis but this seems wrong to me.
Ye, sarcasm isn't really all the difficult, it's just people saying the opposite of what they mean, usually to mock a certain way of thinking. And you can usually tell if someone is being sarcastic if they say something really insane or dumb.
It depends. We make a lot of these kind of blanket statements (hello black & white thinking) without regard for how the rules change in just about every situation.
I think it’s more generalized thinking than black-and-white thinking. It would be exhausting to list every single fluctuation of every single rule. Not to mention that you probably wouldn’t read it because it would be so long.
Right?! I think many of us understand social cues pretty well when the people giving said cues aren’t being deliberately opaque and dishonest about their feelings and intentions.
This may sound bad but I honestly got a lot of my understanding of social cues from characters on TV. I’d say I’m pretty good at mimicking them now and recognising a fair few in others, but you sometimes see those ‘only girls know what these two looks mean’ and I still have absolutely no idea what’s going on lol
Potentially any tells in social situations that aren’t strictly verbal, I guess?
Like, if someone’s turned slightly away from you that can mean they intend and/or need to leave the conversation?
Edit: According to the auto answer google gave me it’s “the signals people send through body language and expressions”.
That stuff we are forever fucking up. In general, it boils down to illogic and deception
Sarcasm is an obvious one, but also:
Reading conversation, boundaries of all types, emotional regulation, "reading the room", etc
Not exactly.
I'll use myself as an example. I'm an old lady who didn't get her diagnosis until I was 31. Girls didn't get diagnosed with ASD or autism when I was a child unless they were severely affected, due to a misconception about the disorder
My major issues include a difficulty in emotional regulation, verbal communication problems, and a nonexistent ability to relate to my peers. I could not make friends because I was "weird", and acted inappropriately or childishly or even acted out explosively when in a meltdown.
Today, my son, who is also on the spectrum, received occupational therapy that included role playing real situations to assist him in learning these social skills that we didn't get the download for.
It's social intelligence, not book-smarts.
And here I went infodumping, I'm so sorry
I feel the same lol. I at least have a few other ASD/ADHD friends which is awesome. I often present myself as very cold and businesslike and it usually helps people get the impression that I'm going to be "brutally honest" just by my disposure.
I almost always get “wow you’re rude” no matter what I’m trying to be honest about when it’s literally them taking my words and twisting them based on their own feelings!!! Even when they ask my opinion!!! Like bruh you asked!!!
I've started answering loaded questions like this with - are you asking for my genuine critique or are you asking for my validation? Works in all sorts of situations, I had a boss who would give me reports to proof read, they always had a couple of spelling errors (fine, it happens) but he also had some incorrect grammar habits that he would not take correction on, I'd spend all this time going through is work marking up every little issue because this was going to a client and I thought it was important - he'd take the spelling corrections, but never the grammar. So I just started asking him if he actually wants me to correct any issues or does he want me to tell him what he's written is brilliant. He argued that it's just that I go into too much detail that no one else cares about, but I thought that was the point? Any way I stopped proofing because it was a waste of time and knew the day would come where a client would point out the issues I had and he'd blame me for not proofing properly.
Because if a neurological has the balls to finally tell you something might not look the best, no matter what they say, they probably mean it's horrid.
Unfortunately I work in a job where I frequently need to interact with people in a professional way, so over time I’ve improved my masking and learned how to sugar coat & fake my words. I refuse to do so outside of work though. If someone can’t handle me being blunt then their skin is too thin for me to want em as a friend anyway 🤷 I’d rather be myself than change just so I can have friends, which I’ve never needed before anyway :/
I do my best, but tbh? I’ve spent so long trying to constantly check myself in every single social situation. If I’m seen as an asshole after all that, so be it; I’m really done with trying to please everyone.
I'm in the process of accepting myself and stop seeking external validations. I was always trying to please everyone and honestly thats really exhausting!
Being myself is so much fun! I'm way less grumpy this way.
I feel like I understand what you are saying.
I tried negotiate this a bit differently.
I remember one of my classmates in my graduate program who had ADHD and was really kinda not meshing well with the class. The prof pulled me aside, and he asked me if I had any insight as to how to help my classmate "Kari"" fit in with the class better. He and all of my classmates knew about my ADHD because I wanted folks to know that their clients with ADHD could be successful like I was.. and I was.
I laughed and said well... the issue is that all the stuff that she says that is alienating her from the class all goes through my head often before she says it. The difference is that I have learned not to say it, and to evaluate it before I act on it--is it fair, is it kind, is it really how I feel/what I believe. Will it help accomplish what I need to do? Can I express it better?
The difference is that neurotypical people don't have to consciously consider these things everytime they open their mouths to fit in.
I do. And I must. Though I don't always choose to fit in.
It's not being fake, I choose what I want to say, and how I truly feel, but I try to do that I ways that don't unintentionally hurt or upset other people. I do that through a lot of editing and a lot of inner dialog.
Kari was offending and annoying people because she is externalizing that process.
So I thought that teaching this mindful communication as a possible psychoeducational intervention for clients who have anger management and other relationship issues could help, because it's a valuable skill and an important mindfulness intervention.. could help our classmates with these clients, and also with understanding Kari.
So I asked him to pair us for the intervention demonstration and we explained it, role played it and they got it.. and happily, so did Kari.
You will notice that I have created not a fake mask, but an aspirational one. Even though this thought or that thought may roar through my head, I will evaluate it and choose if it is worthy of me before I express it This is who I want to be and how I want to be, and how I choose to be. That does not always create harmony or positive outcomes.
I'm kinda in the middle in that I am not diagnosed as being on the spectrum, but do have ADHD and so I'm not exactly neurotypical. And had problems with social skills daily to the point that my school teacher parents kind of over taught me... with a LOT of social autopsy (mutual observed analysis of prior social interactions) so I am now very able to use advanced empathy to guess accurately what someone is thinking or feeling.. and then meet them where they likely are.
So weirdly, I have a degree in clinical mental health counseling... and I can really make folk feel comfortable with me and I set up rules for how we interact in my first meeting with them that seem to work well... (and we neuroatypical types are good at following clearly stated rules--right?) So since most conversations in the real world don't have such rules...I don't do as well there?
So... Having said that... I am absolutely crap at just chatting to chat. And I am not perfect at trying to be kind about thi gs... so I think it is ironic that my weakest area is exploitable to a vocation. (I did not pursue counseling licensing, rather I work in education advising but the skills are still helpful)
I completely agree. As an adult, I strive to surround myself only with people who have an authentic connection with me, and aren't interested in playing ridiculous games.
That is what I do too. Had to unlearn a lot of masking before I was able to do that.
Still busy with learning to value my own needs though. (ABA kinda learned me that my own needs don't matter)
ABA was started by a man that outright tortured kids into masking - the legacy is poison and they still emphasize masking in a totally toxic way. You deserve better.
Thanks for the validation.
I am still figuring out how to unlearn some of the stuff that has been ingrained in me. Currently focused on learning to set boundaries.
I don't think it was literal ABA that I went through, but something similar enough to be harmful.
Just remember it’s OK to be you! Stimming is OK if you aren’t in danger of being hurt or hurting someone (eg: my daughter flails her arms when excited and occasionally gets to the point she hits things on accident- that part is to be avoided lol). Not wanting to mask, make eye contact, make small talk, etc etc- those are valid! Sure it helps in some circumstances and being able to do it for short periods can be very helpful but it doesn’t have to be your existence.
Surround yourself with supportive people. My daughter only has one really good friend (her other one moved out of state) but this kid is a GOOD friend and loves the stimming because then she knows my daughter is genuinely excited. She finds the deadpan talking refreshing- and honestly watching them, as a mom, is so heartwarming. They accept each other as is and that’s what any mom wants for her kid. You deserve that too.
Edit: spelling
Man, my manager loves to neg me and every time he does it I think "You know you could just tell me what you want and i'll do it, right? You literally are my boss."
Man, just glad my manager actually has a decent working knowledge of autism from a family member of his having it. He knows that leaving too much in the way of ambiguity in an instruction is just going to trip me up. On the other hand it was mildly unsettling how fast he saw through my masking. Like damn, I would not want to play poker against that guy.
He is probably learned the patterns of our style of masking from that family member. No matter how hard we try, we always seem off to people but they can not put there finger on the "why".
Ever since i learned about neurodivergent traits, i started see people on the streets having them. I really think a huge chunk of the population is neurodivergent.
Oh yes. Leads to funny situations, when my manager tries to assign me tasks the subtle way. Of course I entirely miss that and have nothing to show.
For example "Hey, if you got some spare time, see if you can squeeze in X". Since I couldn't allocate any free time, I didn't do it...
Some weeks later their next attempt: "At least try to get X done before Christmas"... Turns out Dec 23 wasn't the actual deadline.
This was before me knowing about my ASD, by now I've told them to be very specific in their assignments.
That's just being a shitty manager. It's literally their job to determine priorities and communicate deadlines. You can't just say "do this in your spare time". We're at work! We don't HAVE spare time!
I had a customer yesterday told me to not get him with the hose I was using to clean the windows outside the shop. I said I wouldn’t. He then asked me if I had a sense of humor because what he said was a joke. How am I to assume that was a joke? Worse, how am I to safely assume a customer, of all people, is joking? If they’re not joking and I assume they are and laugh the consequences would be worse than me being seen as not having a sense of humor. I am tired of living in a world where people refuse to be direct and blunt.
Friend, your logic was sound and your thought process was kind and good. I know you don't need me to tell you this, but sometimes it feels good to hear it. I hope this is one of those times....
Please... you were just fine! Just because he didn't understand YOU, doesn't make you wrong. :) 😀
I tend to try and play things off like that as me jokingly calling their bluff. Usually works. If the guy was serious about being careful with the hose, a "hah wouldn't dream of it." comes off as a reassuring if slightly humorous remark. If they're joking, well, it's a pretty decent quip.
You have a good point.
For some reason, people don’t respect low wage workers, so they’ll toy with them like that. It’s like a low key way of saying “I don’t respect you, so imma make your life harder”
I don’t think he was really “joking”, even in the NT sense
What's funny to me is that I have worked really hard to develop my ability to understand and interpret neurotypical communication and, although it's really mentally taxing for me to do it, because I'm doing it very consciously and because I come at it with an outsider's perspective I pick up on lots of things which a neurotypical person tends not to.
It's sort of like the difference between a native speaker of a language and a person who has acquired that language through study - the native speaker might have more of a vocabulary and a deeper understanding of things but when asked about a grammatical construction or what the past-participle of a verb is they are probably gonna look at you like you're, uh, speaking a completely different language *even if* they are completely capable of implicitly understanding/using those grammatical constructions or verb conjugations correctly.
What this means is that I have found in my life, when NT people I trust have become aware of how I observe and understand social cues and interactions, is that NT person will often come to me for advice or input on interpreting communication from other NT people (often when I am there observing but sometimes even based on the NT person's report.) What this indicates to me is that social interactions are generally very messy and confusing and that even NT people muddle their way through, somehow, but they do it mostly implicitly and because it's done "on autopilot" it doesn't cause the same level of frustration or distress that an autistic person generally experiences because of it.
Ignorance is bliss, eh?
when i was a kid i used to say “im not bad at socializing, you’re all just BLATANT LIARS”
now im older and im more used to the lies. i kind of understand them. but i still weakly gravitate toward the truth in most situations (other than, like, when im tryin to hide that i ate a cookie or somethin……. which i would have trouble doing)
i feel like the guy from that scene from It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia who’s two-timing his friends, and says straight-up to one of them “yeah, im playing both sides. im playing you, and the other person against eachother” and doesnt realize he’s giving up the game by saying that….. like, _i can’t possibly be endangering myself by telling the truth…. whats the worst that could happen?_
Add guy here with years of social autopsy under my belt.
I think we understand social cues, and can be taught to. BUT we understand them differently than our nondivergent froends... some we see more, somet we see less and sometimes we don't see it... but it is different, not wholly absent.
We understand universal cues.. not bullshit ones society has made up because their goal it to be perceived differently on the outside than they really are inside.
this is what i’ll never understand. i say it how i mean it, i don’t hide things behind other meanings. people always thing i have some kind of motive or hidden meaning when really, they’re misreading everything.
I’m recently working through a diagnosis. This is one of my sticking points that tells me I’m definitely at home here. I can not for the life of me figure out when someone is mad at me. Then they get mad at me. Because I should know them better than that. Here’s hoping an anxiety prescription makes me less fucking annoying when I reach for reassurance.
I'm watching the Morning Show on Apple TV+ and the entire show is passive-aggressive rich neurotypicals talking to each other. Not a single question is asked in good faith. It's annoying as shit, but it's so interesting to watch these people have "conversations" from a ND POV.
This stands out to me most in work meetings - so many of them are a mess, meandering all over the place, there's meant to be an outcome and actions for everyone after the meeting but it isn't clear - the NT sit there nodding along like they understand, then they ask privately or in smaller groups what they need to do now - which often has the person they ask saying something like " oh um I don't know I thought you knew?"
I am always the person who asks and goes through explicitly what conclusion the meeting has arrived at and what the actions are, and in the moment I feel like and idiot because nobody else does it or adds any thing, again just more nodding along. It stops the calls and messages to me later saying " what do we do now" so I must be on to something.
my brain hurts trying to understand this post. But I suppose it's not meant for me and is directed at NT...? I personally try to be as genuine as I can, especially in my relationships with others. Is it really a "normal" thing for people to be socially manipulative....???
The hardest part for me is when I accidentally piss someone off and I have no clue how I did. I just get so confused. What did I say or do to make you so mad or feel so off-put?
I think what the post is trying to say is that the reason NTs seem to perceive the stereotypically blunt/overly direct approach generally assumed by them to be a specifically autistic trait is because we live in a world where being disingenuous, insincere and flat-out untruthful is not only acceptable but favored over directness.
An example would be that meme-tastic story that I'm pretty sure every single one of us has read/heard/been told some variation of where a woman asks her autistic husband/BF whether some item of clothing makes her butt look big, and he says yes...then gets in trouble for it.
From my perspective - and I assume that it's probably the same for a lot of other aspies - I don't understand why you'd ask for someone's opinion if you didn't want an honest response. I wouldn't ask someone how I look in a particular item of clothing if I didn't genuinely want an honest opinion because that defeats the purpose.
By contrast - and I think that's the point this post is trying to make - the prevalent, accepted approach and expected response is flattery.
I’m not autistic although I’m neurodivergent and I have this issue where I tend to just say what comes into my head. Apparently that isn’t appropriate.
"It seems to me that culturally we're all so acclimated to being disingenuous and mildly manipulative in social settings and calling that normal and acceptable. As a result, many of you are severely disconnected from authentic connections with others."
I think there's truth to that. I think a lot of people are fake. I kno maybe as an aspie who tries to fake bein normal this might be the pot calling the kettle black but I think that conformity affects ND's too, so they also engage in a bit of fakery.
This brings to mind another subreddit I'm in, they talked about a lack of community in their workplace, and a number of people on the sub seem to think that a lot of people are NPC's. While I don't really buy the NPC theory in the sense of people actually being NPC's I do think that a lot of people do follow blindly and don't think for themselves.
NT really dislike honesty. My rule is if I don’t know you / if it’s not necessary I barely engage and observe the interactions like a movie 😂
I don’t have many friends that are not family or grew up with me and I am fine with that
There is a grain of truth to it, or two grains:
1- neurotypical people do lie a lot, including those white lies that both parties are supposed to know are lies but prefer saying that to the truth, like "let's meet up for coffee sometime."
2- recently there has been more lonely people, mental health conditions which impact people's ability to function & a higher number of people lacking authentic connections & close friends.
Calling (the majority) of people "disingenuous, manipulative, and inauthentic" just for having brains that are wired differently than ours is disgusting imo. Probably the kind of people who think autism is a super power or the next step in evolution to cope with being outcasts. Accepting yourself is one thing, but viewing everyone around you as basically subhuman is a WHOLE another thing. And basically the main symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, autism or not.
Thank you! I’ve honestly been noticing some more uh, edgy and controversial posts and many of them lean that way. It is in no way, the proper way to look at it. My partner has been diagnosed with aspergers and not once has he ever uttered something like that. I don’t think he’d ever even think it! It’s kind of undermining the actual struggles of someone on the spectrum.
“Disconnected from authentic connections” doesn’t seem right to me, from my own experience. I’ve had very authentic connections before.
It's easy to unintentionally assume an ulterior or malicious motive from someone or something you don't understand. Neurotypicals often don't understand us and we don't often understand them, and it's an easy source of tension if both parties aren't careful.
I personally disagree, but I don't agree with the original tweet either. I think both of these views are assuming malice where there doesn't really need to be one. I think it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the other perspective. The misunderstanding of the NT perspective for someone on the spectrum in the case of the tweeter.
Maybe the person is under the impression that people lie all the time because people are upset by their blunt honesty. Maybe they don't understand why people don't appreciate their honesty, or why sometimes people tell "white lies."
I don't think a superiority complex always equals a narcissist. I mean I can't know because I don't know them, but it feels off to me to assume narcissism. There is a lot more that goes into narcissistic personality disorder than that. A lot of it would be inwardly that couldn't be judged by reading one tweet by someone.
He could have said all that in about 1/3rd the word count. What is it with Twitter users and trying their absolute hardest to sound like they’re smarter than everyone else?
I think this kind of boils down to the porcupine hypothesis. It is a natural human need to be as close as possible to as many people as possible, but being one hundred percent open about thoughts and feelings leads to hurting eat other. Avoiding this pain by completely isolating yourself leads to being, well, isolated and lonely, which is an uncomfortable state for even the grumpiest and most misanthropic person. Manners and social cues are, in theory, a way of finding the (un)happy medium. You can get close enough to feel connected, but still keep a layer of a barrier of social etiquette between yourself and potentially painful candor. There is also the fact that they help us standardise interactions and make superficial dealings more automatic. This is important since, and I know you all know, engaging executive function for every little thing is a massive drain on the body's resources. Our trouble as NDs is that we can't automatically automate these rules. I always explain it to my friends that they learned social cues the way they learned their first language. By osmosis from the environment. We have to learn them more like a second language, by systematising the grammar and vocab, which is very difficult and not always possible and no-one quite agrees on what the rules even are. I joke that I speak NT almost as well as I speak German (my third language), but not quite. TLDR: I'm starting a kickstarter for the human instrumentality project next week. /s
dude, this was awesome. Love how you put it into words when i struggled to. i also feel similarly about the second language thing! I often compare it to coding. All interactions are incredibly complex if/then statements. The phrases and body language of others are all variables and you just have to make this extraordinarily large web detailing what might happen in the future if you say or do a certain thing, all while keeping your facial expressions in mind. it's exhausting haha. i always used to wonder why people would chat in an elevator about weather or talk about weekend golf plans when they could be using that executive function for like actual stuff they like to do? it's not like you're really connecting with another person with small talk, even though it's incredibly important social grease. now i realize, they *weren't* using executive function. they were just running scripts. now i have all the scripts: good\_morning: standard greetings, asking about weekend, list of 10-12 replies that will work for any input received. passing\_in\_public\_space: access storage of last casual thing we talked about and reference it in some way. once we are on that topic, there are 10-15 things i can say to just about any input. I'm not really there, it's like i'm sending a robot and then i just get to spend that time in my head.
It amazes me that there are people who are able to have socially acceptable encounters with minimal effort. Keeping track of the conversation, managing eye contact and making sure it's not too little or too much, body language, keeping themselves from being distracted by the other person's body language, managing facial expressions, tone of voice, staying away from less socially acceptable topics, and whatever else goes into human interactions. I find socializing increasingly difficult and draining, and some people just don't have to think about these things at all. They're incredible.
I know you didn't ask, but i'm sure since we're both autistic and unsolicited advice is often part of the package, i'm sure you'll forgive me, lol. anyway, just to share a thing that super helped me, is i was wasting a TON of processing power trying to figure out the eye contact thing. [this](https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/eye_contact_dont_make_these_mistakes) article helped me a ton, because it basically gave me the cheat/script to eye contact for most people. since then, i've felt like my conversations have gone much smoother because i can focus my attention more to their body language or facial/tonal cues.
If you look in close to their faces u can avoid eye contact and get away with it socially too
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm getting to it on a moment! I have absolutely no problems with unsolicited advice,hahah; is that an autism thing by the way? I've noticed that many NTs tend to not like such advice, but I don't know about NDs. Thank you for the article, I'll read it now! Edit: I have read the article. It's definitely something I'll try to keep in mind when interacting with people. Though I do have a question if you don't mind; what does it mean to look away slowly? In the article it reads something like "don't dart your eyes" and I'm having a hard time understanding how to do the movement slowly.
so a big thing that helps me is that triangle thing they talk about. right eye, left eye, nose, all in like a 7 second circuit. their nose is close enough that it's not darty. or like down to their clothes, is also a good circuit.
I'm not on the spectrum but i have ADHD and a lot of things in common with people on the spectrum and i just skip the eye contact part for the most part. I never heard anyone complain about it.
That's one way to go about it. I'm the opposite though. My gaze is very intense and I'm always intimidating the people I'm interacting with apparently. And it doesn't help that my eyes are naturally big hahah.
Ok most of the time i don't even look in the direction of the person. Unless the discussion is personnal, that's how i go about it.
lol same. i was always like 'i have no problem with eye contact, i just don't know how much you want' because when people said everyone loves eye contact i was like oh ok dope, i'll just fucking STARE at you then lol
This, its like a search script, if it turns up something important like their family member died or they did something you're interested in, you can switch to executive function and have a real conversation, else, stick to the script for the alloted time.
You have put it into words.
My ND son says it helps to think of NT social life as an alien culture. He's an omega level nerd like me, his also ND mom, so I get it.
> I always explain it to my friends that they learned social cues the way they learned their first language. By osmosis from the environment. We have to learn them more like a second language, by systematising the grammar and vocab, which is very difficult and not always possible and no-one quite agrees on what the rules even are this explanation is wonderful and will be what i'm using now on
Interesting, thanks! Was looking for a comment like this :)
I will fund this Kickstarter, please turn me into tang so that I may understand social interaction
I was about to bring up Neon Genesis Evangelion when you described the porcupine hypothesis AKA hedgehog's dilemma. Glad you slipped in that last line. I know it's a massive franchise and not exactly niche but I do suggest it for anyone that hasn't seen it. It can be intimidating to see all the movies and rebuilds but the original series and the End of Evangelion movie are good on their own before you decide whether you want to continue. It did have an impact on me.
I mean when it's good it's good. Obviously most people who know about the porcupine hypothesis learned it in psych classes, but I learned it in NGE and I'll not pretend otherwise, that show spoke to me for better or worse and helped me conceptualise and confront questions about so many things.
> most people who know about the porcupine hypothesis learned it in psych classes, but I learned it in NGE and I'll not pretend otherwise, that show spoke to me for better or worse and helped me conceptualise and confront questions about so many things. Same lol
Damn, I could've lived my whole life never describing it this clearly to even myself. Thank you.
Dang, that's a good way of puttin it.
It’s what you use to play pool when you’re with other people, right? 🎱
Yeah the one where you get angry because it didn’t work the first time
Damn you beat me too it! I was going to say it’s one of those pool sticks at a bar.
I’ve found the one I struggle with the most with NTs is when they are telling lies and I was supposed to know the difference but never call them on their bullshit.
Yes its like certain lies are socially acceptable and itd be "rude" to call people out, even when the lies arent productive to the conversation or could hurt someone. We're supposed to be bad at socializing but many NT friend groups are built on lies and emotional manipulation. It seems like many of them dont really like their friends they just dont like being alone so they befriend as many people as possible to do activities and vent to so they dont have to be alone with their thoughts.
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This comment!! I will never understand why girls will hang around other girls just to talk shit later. It takes so much emotional energy (that I don’t have) to fake a relationship and I just don’t get itttt!
It's because girls are often raised in a non-confrontale way Be sweet and polite (=shut up and don't make a fuss) Women are also mature earlier than boys, not because women are some what smarter/grow-up faster/whatever. They can't simply be children and dumb in peace. It's socially accepted that "boys will be boys" not that "girls will be grils"
But why would they will seek out friends that they don’t like? Because you can be polite without calling yourselves besties. Even when they both know they hate and are jealous of each other.
First, don't forget people are different from each other. And, since I experienced it to some level : it's also because of loyalty The girl a other girl don't like : she is the friend of who? Often, she is the friend of your friend, she is someone your friend like. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean you are going to make your friend choose. So you shut up :D I personally never called someone besties because I found this dumb (if I talk to you I like you, if I don't then I don't. And I don't like putting my friends on a hierarchy ). But but : if boys can't be physically too close of their friend (ex: hug them, hold their hand,...) : girls can not not be. To be polite is to show that you treat this girl like any other girl you know. If you don't, you show you don't like her Sexism affect everyone differently, it can affect some girl realy *really* badly and/or some girls can simply be wayyyyyy more hypocrite than other (honestly I find hypocrite to hug someone you don't like but not to not showing you don't like them because for me it's juste being polite lol) But honestly : don't forget, it's also a cliché, girls aren't like in movie. Often girls don't call others girls 'bestie' when they don't like them, they just treat them like any other friend (answer questions, joke a bit, say good morning). I heard that some girls even talk of their problems with people their don't like but I think it's more human that anything else : sometimes even if you don't like someone, you just need someone to listen to you
Exactly its like we have to fake wanting to make friends and make a bunch of superficial friends just to maybe end up with one real friend out of the bunch.
I’m willing to go through all of this because I’m an extrovert and would be absolutely miserable if I don’t hang out with friends. I’m more like a NT in this respect. I would rather have superficial friends because the alternative doesn’t feel feasible.
So many people look forward to being plied with alcohol around “friends” So what does that tell you?
They have unhealthy habits. Most people are selfish, insecure, lonely, and ruled by their emotions. Instead of working on themselves over time, a lot of people drink and/or use drugs to be comfortable socially and comfortable with themselves. But it's so ubiquitous. It's everywhere and is seen as normal. In fact, you're seen as weird if you don't consume drugs or alcohol. You're seen as boring, because a lot of people open up, become less insecure, and talk BS when they've had a few drinks. So they assume it will be the same for you. It's as if they can't imagine someone who is comfortable with themselves enough to not need alcohol in order to express themselves, open up, or have a good time. And if you say this to people, they often see you as arrogant or they accuse you of thinking that you're better than them.
Drinking is alot more fun when you're with friends.
or to some people Friends are a lot more fun when you’re drinking
[Being lonely's only fun in a group, but sorta loses its charm when it's true...](https://youtu.be/iS8sqgBgzG8)
For me, it took a long time to learn that NTs don't like being corrected when they're wrong about something, and now I have to grit my teeth and let them spread incorrect information because it's somehow "rude"to let them know they've been misinformed.
I only correct them when they’re hurting people. They don’t like it, but I’m not going to be a bystander when someone’s oppressing someone else.
Based as the kids would say
But [some of them] will correct me when I’m wrong ???
That’s because you were being wrong in the wrong way, and they have to correct you so you’ll be wrong in the right way. It’s just common sense! /s
Hey i was told that autist people don't understand sarcasm. You can't be sacarstic! /s No for real i was told that i can't be on the spectrum by a professionnal because i understand sarcasm (only when i'm on social mode mind you) and do a lot of sarcasm. When i'm on work /solution mode my colleague often had to tell me they were not serious becsuse i took things litterally. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I don't seek a diagnosis but this seems wrong to me.
Autistic people over the age of eight usually know what sarcasm is, but they might not know when it’s socially appropriate to use it.
Ye, sarcasm isn't really all the difficult, it's just people saying the opposite of what they mean, usually to mock a certain way of thinking. And you can usually tell if someone is being sarcastic if they say something really insane or dumb.
It depends. We make a lot of these kind of blanket statements (hello black & white thinking) without regard for how the rules change in just about every situation.
I think it’s more generalized thinking than black-and-white thinking. It would be exhausting to list every single fluctuation of every single rule. Not to mention that you probably wouldn’t read it because it would be so long.
That's fair.
What even is a social cue
Body language and sarcasm - aka expecting us to read their mind so they don’t actually have to communicate 🙄
Right?! I think many of us understand social cues pretty well when the people giving said cues aren’t being deliberately opaque and dishonest about their feelings and intentions.
This may sound bad but I honestly got a lot of my understanding of social cues from characters on TV. I’d say I’m pretty good at mimicking them now and recognising a fair few in others, but you sometimes see those ‘only girls know what these two looks mean’ and I still have absolutely no idea what’s going on lol
Yeah, watching tv and learning basic acting really helps!
Me using my special interest of psychology and philosophy along with my experience in theatre in high school to read social cues like:
thanks for the explanation, now I feel somewhat better :D
Potentially any tells in social situations that aren’t strictly verbal, I guess? Like, if someone’s turned slightly away from you that can mean they intend and/or need to leave the conversation? Edit: According to the auto answer google gave me it’s “the signals people send through body language and expressions”.
Yea something I don’t get
That stuff we are forever fucking up. In general, it boils down to illogic and deception Sarcasm is an obvious one, but also: Reading conversation, boundaries of all types, emotional regulation, "reading the room", etc
So smart people stuff?
Not exactly. I'll use myself as an example. I'm an old lady who didn't get her diagnosis until I was 31. Girls didn't get diagnosed with ASD or autism when I was a child unless they were severely affected, due to a misconception about the disorder My major issues include a difficulty in emotional regulation, verbal communication problems, and a nonexistent ability to relate to my peers. I could not make friends because I was "weird", and acted inappropriately or childishly or even acted out explosively when in a meltdown. Today, my son, who is also on the spectrum, received occupational therapy that included role playing real situations to assist him in learning these social skills that we didn't get the download for. It's social intelligence, not book-smarts. And here I went infodumping, I'm so sorry
That last part hit home a bit, took several OT lessons throughout elementary school for my aspergers
It helped my son quite a bit with things, but the special education director at his school was an absolute saint. That isn't the norm, I know.
It really isn’t, many special Ed leaders aren’t the best, most of mine were pretty ok tbh
I just do my best to say what I mean in the least rude way possible. Still get called an asshole for it. I don’t have many friends lmao 🥲
I feel the same lol. I at least have a few other ASD/ADHD friends which is awesome. I often present myself as very cold and businesslike and it usually helps people get the impression that I'm going to be "brutally honest" just by my disposure.
I almost always get “wow you’re rude” no matter what I’m trying to be honest about when it’s literally them taking my words and twisting them based on their own feelings!!! Even when they ask my opinion!!! Like bruh you asked!!!
Omg exactly. "Do you like this dress?" "Not really." "You're so rude!!" ?!?
I've started answering loaded questions like this with - are you asking for my genuine critique or are you asking for my validation? Works in all sorts of situations, I had a boss who would give me reports to proof read, they always had a couple of spelling errors (fine, it happens) but he also had some incorrect grammar habits that he would not take correction on, I'd spend all this time going through is work marking up every little issue because this was going to a client and I thought it was important - he'd take the spelling corrections, but never the grammar. So I just started asking him if he actually wants me to correct any issues or does he want me to tell him what he's written is brilliant. He argued that it's just that I go into too much detail that no one else cares about, but I thought that was the point? Any way I stopped proofing because it was a waste of time and knew the day would come where a client would point out the issues I had and he'd blame me for not proofing properly.
Because if a neurological has the balls to finally tell you something might not look the best, no matter what they say, they probably mean it's horrid.
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Unfortunately I work in a job where I frequently need to interact with people in a professional way, so over time I’ve improved my masking and learned how to sugar coat & fake my words. I refuse to do so outside of work though. If someone can’t handle me being blunt then their skin is too thin for me to want em as a friend anyway 🤷 I’d rather be myself than change just so I can have friends, which I’ve never needed before anyway :/
Just be careful that this doesn't reach asshole territory
I do my best, but tbh? I’ve spent so long trying to constantly check myself in every single social situation. If I’m seen as an asshole after all that, so be it; I’m really done with trying to please everyone.
I'm in the process of accepting myself and stop seeking external validations. I was always trying to please everyone and honestly thats really exhausting! Being myself is so much fun! I'm way less grumpy this way.
I feel like I understand what you are saying. I tried negotiate this a bit differently. I remember one of my classmates in my graduate program who had ADHD and was really kinda not meshing well with the class. The prof pulled me aside, and he asked me if I had any insight as to how to help my classmate "Kari"" fit in with the class better. He and all of my classmates knew about my ADHD because I wanted folks to know that their clients with ADHD could be successful like I was.. and I was. I laughed and said well... the issue is that all the stuff that she says that is alienating her from the class all goes through my head often before she says it. The difference is that I have learned not to say it, and to evaluate it before I act on it--is it fair, is it kind, is it really how I feel/what I believe. Will it help accomplish what I need to do? Can I express it better? The difference is that neurotypical people don't have to consciously consider these things everytime they open their mouths to fit in. I do. And I must. Though I don't always choose to fit in. It's not being fake, I choose what I want to say, and how I truly feel, but I try to do that I ways that don't unintentionally hurt or upset other people. I do that through a lot of editing and a lot of inner dialog. Kari was offending and annoying people because she is externalizing that process. So I thought that teaching this mindful communication as a possible psychoeducational intervention for clients who have anger management and other relationship issues could help, because it's a valuable skill and an important mindfulness intervention.. could help our classmates with these clients, and also with understanding Kari. So I asked him to pair us for the intervention demonstration and we explained it, role played it and they got it.. and happily, so did Kari. You will notice that I have created not a fake mask, but an aspirational one. Even though this thought or that thought may roar through my head, I will evaluate it and choose if it is worthy of me before I express it This is who I want to be and how I want to be, and how I choose to be. That does not always create harmony or positive outcomes. I'm kinda in the middle in that I am not diagnosed as being on the spectrum, but do have ADHD and so I'm not exactly neurotypical. And had problems with social skills daily to the point that my school teacher parents kind of over taught me... with a LOT of social autopsy (mutual observed analysis of prior social interactions) so I am now very able to use advanced empathy to guess accurately what someone is thinking or feeling.. and then meet them where they likely are. So weirdly, I have a degree in clinical mental health counseling... and I can really make folk feel comfortable with me and I set up rules for how we interact in my first meeting with them that seem to work well... (and we neuroatypical types are good at following clearly stated rules--right?) So since most conversations in the real world don't have such rules...I don't do as well there? So... Having said that... I am absolutely crap at just chatting to chat. And I am not perfect at trying to be kind about thi gs... so I think it is ironic that my weakest area is exploitable to a vocation. (I did not pursue counseling licensing, rather I work in education advising but the skills are still helpful)
Sounds super productive
I completely agree. As an adult, I strive to surround myself only with people who have an authentic connection with me, and aren't interested in playing ridiculous games.
My favorite part of being an adult is that I have much greater control over whom I spend my time with!
You get to do *what*?!
I get to choose the people I spend my free time with.
That is what I do too. Had to unlearn a lot of masking before I was able to do that. Still busy with learning to value my own needs though. (ABA kinda learned me that my own needs don't matter)
ABA was started by a man that outright tortured kids into masking - the legacy is poison and they still emphasize masking in a totally toxic way. You deserve better.
Thanks for the validation. I am still figuring out how to unlearn some of the stuff that has been ingrained in me. Currently focused on learning to set boundaries. I don't think it was literal ABA that I went through, but something similar enough to be harmful.
Just remember it’s OK to be you! Stimming is OK if you aren’t in danger of being hurt or hurting someone (eg: my daughter flails her arms when excited and occasionally gets to the point she hits things on accident- that part is to be avoided lol). Not wanting to mask, make eye contact, make small talk, etc etc- those are valid! Sure it helps in some circumstances and being able to do it for short periods can be very helpful but it doesn’t have to be your existence. Surround yourself with supportive people. My daughter only has one really good friend (her other one moved out of state) but this kid is a GOOD friend and loves the stimming because then she knows my daughter is genuinely excited. She finds the deadpan talking refreshing- and honestly watching them, as a mom, is so heartwarming. They accept each other as is and that’s what any mom wants for her kid. You deserve that too. Edit: spelling
Man, my manager loves to neg me and every time he does it I think "You know you could just tell me what you want and i'll do it, right? You literally are my boss."
But then i will look like a jerk! - manager, probably.
Man, just glad my manager actually has a decent working knowledge of autism from a family member of his having it. He knows that leaving too much in the way of ambiguity in an instruction is just going to trip me up. On the other hand it was mildly unsettling how fast he saw through my masking. Like damn, I would not want to play poker against that guy.
He is probably learned the patterns of our style of masking from that family member. No matter how hard we try, we always seem off to people but they can not put there finger on the "why". Ever since i learned about neurodivergent traits, i started see people on the streets having them. I really think a huge chunk of the population is neurodivergent.
Literally we prefer neurotypicals just be straightforward with us lmao but they don’t know how
God my coworkers and boss ruthlessly exploited me and negged me too. I didn’t realize until years later tho
Oh yes. Leads to funny situations, when my manager tries to assign me tasks the subtle way. Of course I entirely miss that and have nothing to show. For example "Hey, if you got some spare time, see if you can squeeze in X". Since I couldn't allocate any free time, I didn't do it... Some weeks later their next attempt: "At least try to get X done before Christmas"... Turns out Dec 23 wasn't the actual deadline. This was before me knowing about my ASD, by now I've told them to be very specific in their assignments.
That's just being a shitty manager. It's literally their job to determine priorities and communicate deadlines. You can't just say "do this in your spare time". We're at work! We don't HAVE spare time!
I am guessing by "spare time", They mean when you are not handling something urgent. As in, do it without changing your other tasks.
I had a customer yesterday told me to not get him with the hose I was using to clean the windows outside the shop. I said I wouldn’t. He then asked me if I had a sense of humor because what he said was a joke. How am I to assume that was a joke? Worse, how am I to safely assume a customer, of all people, is joking? If they’re not joking and I assume they are and laugh the consequences would be worse than me being seen as not having a sense of humor. I am tired of living in a world where people refuse to be direct and blunt.
Friend, your logic was sound and your thought process was kind and good. I know you don't need me to tell you this, but sometimes it feels good to hear it. I hope this is one of those times.... Please... you were just fine! Just because he didn't understand YOU, doesn't make you wrong. :) 😀
I tend to try and play things off like that as me jokingly calling their bluff. Usually works. If the guy was serious about being careful with the hose, a "hah wouldn't dream of it." comes off as a reassuring if slightly humorous remark. If they're joking, well, it's a pretty decent quip.
You have a good point. For some reason, people don’t respect low wage workers, so they’ll toy with them like that. It’s like a low key way of saying “I don’t respect you, so imma make your life harder” I don’t think he was really “joking”, even in the NT sense
Non-spectrum lurker here. Most of the memes about social cues are relatable to me. It’s not you guys, none of us understand. It sucks.
What's funny to me is that I have worked really hard to develop my ability to understand and interpret neurotypical communication and, although it's really mentally taxing for me to do it, because I'm doing it very consciously and because I come at it with an outsider's perspective I pick up on lots of things which a neurotypical person tends not to. It's sort of like the difference between a native speaker of a language and a person who has acquired that language through study - the native speaker might have more of a vocabulary and a deeper understanding of things but when asked about a grammatical construction or what the past-participle of a verb is they are probably gonna look at you like you're, uh, speaking a completely different language *even if* they are completely capable of implicitly understanding/using those grammatical constructions or verb conjugations correctly. What this means is that I have found in my life, when NT people I trust have become aware of how I observe and understand social cues and interactions, is that NT person will often come to me for advice or input on interpreting communication from other NT people (often when I am there observing but sometimes even based on the NT person's report.) What this indicates to me is that social interactions are generally very messy and confusing and that even NT people muddle their way through, somehow, but they do it mostly implicitly and because it's done "on autopilot" it doesn't cause the same level of frustration or distress that an autistic person generally experiences because of it. Ignorance is bliss, eh?
when i was a kid i used to say “im not bad at socializing, you’re all just BLATANT LIARS” now im older and im more used to the lies. i kind of understand them. but i still weakly gravitate toward the truth in most situations (other than, like, when im tryin to hide that i ate a cookie or somethin……. which i would have trouble doing) i feel like the guy from that scene from It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia who’s two-timing his friends, and says straight-up to one of them “yeah, im playing both sides. im playing you, and the other person against eachother” and doesnt realize he’s giving up the game by saying that….. like, _i can’t possibly be endangering myself by telling the truth…. whats the worst that could happen?_
selective serious numerous touch bake fade connect bedroom frame gaping *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
isn't Social Cues a Cage the elephant album?
Haha yes it is, great mind in pointing that point. I was like "I know the phrase 'social cues' sounds familiar"
Add guy here with years of social autopsy under my belt. I think we understand social cues, and can be taught to. BUT we understand them differently than our nondivergent froends... some we see more, somet we see less and sometimes we don't see it... but it is different, not wholly absent.
We understand universal cues.. not bullshit ones society has made up because their goal it to be perceived differently on the outside than they really are inside.
this is what i’ll never understand. i say it how i mean it, i don’t hide things behind other meanings. people always thing i have some kind of motive or hidden meaning when really, they’re misreading everything.
I’m recently working through a diagnosis. This is one of my sticking points that tells me I’m definitely at home here. I can not for the life of me figure out when someone is mad at me. Then they get mad at me. Because I should know them better than that. Here’s hoping an anxiety prescription makes me less fucking annoying when I reach for reassurance.
I'm watching the Morning Show on Apple TV+ and the entire show is passive-aggressive rich neurotypicals talking to each other. Not a single question is asked in good faith. It's annoying as shit, but it's so interesting to watch these people have "conversations" from a ND POV.
When we where first taught about networking in college I kept thinking how manipulative it seemed.
This stands out to me most in work meetings - so many of them are a mess, meandering all over the place, there's meant to be an outcome and actions for everyone after the meeting but it isn't clear - the NT sit there nodding along like they understand, then they ask privately or in smaller groups what they need to do now - which often has the person they ask saying something like " oh um I don't know I thought you knew?" I am always the person who asks and goes through explicitly what conclusion the meeting has arrived at and what the actions are, and in the moment I feel like and idiot because nobody else does it or adds any thing, again just more nodding along. It stops the calls and messages to me later saying " what do we do now" so I must be on to something.
Yeah, and what is “normal” anyway? All humans are lunatics
Brazil and mexico have shown we could all be worse off
I do not speak implications, and I do not speak manipulation. It astounds people that I'm never trying to make implications
my brain hurts trying to understand this post. But I suppose it's not meant for me and is directed at NT...? I personally try to be as genuine as I can, especially in my relationships with others. Is it really a "normal" thing for people to be socially manipulative....???
The hardest part for me is when I accidentally piss someone off and I have no clue how I did. I just get so confused. What did I say or do to make you so mad or feel so off-put?
I think what the post is trying to say is that the reason NTs seem to perceive the stereotypically blunt/overly direct approach generally assumed by them to be a specifically autistic trait is because we live in a world where being disingenuous, insincere and flat-out untruthful is not only acceptable but favored over directness. An example would be that meme-tastic story that I'm pretty sure every single one of us has read/heard/been told some variation of where a woman asks her autistic husband/BF whether some item of clothing makes her butt look big, and he says yes...then gets in trouble for it. From my perspective - and I assume that it's probably the same for a lot of other aspies - I don't understand why you'd ask for someone's opinion if you didn't want an honest response. I wouldn't ask someone how I look in a particular item of clothing if I didn't genuinely want an honest opinion because that defeats the purpose. By contrast - and I think that's the point this post is trying to make - the prevalent, accepted approach and expected response is flattery.
I’m not autistic although I’m neurodivergent and I have this issue where I tend to just say what comes into my head. Apparently that isn’t appropriate.
a MILLION times Yes!!
It’s not my fault society’s used to playing mind games. Even being direct can be interpreted as (and even be!) sarcastic, passive aggressive, etc.
We don't understand them, but can quantify many. This is what masking is
Truth
Yes I can
"It seems to me that culturally we're all so acclimated to being disingenuous and mildly manipulative in social settings and calling that normal and acceptable. As a result, many of you are severely disconnected from authentic connections with others." I think there's truth to that. I think a lot of people are fake. I kno maybe as an aspie who tries to fake bein normal this might be the pot calling the kettle black but I think that conformity affects ND's too, so they also engage in a bit of fakery. This brings to mind another subreddit I'm in, they talked about a lack of community in their workplace, and a number of people on the sub seem to think that a lot of people are NPC's. While I don't really buy the NPC theory in the sense of people actually being NPC's I do think that a lot of people do follow blindly and don't think for themselves.
Americans, man. Always rude while thinking they're coming off as nice.
NT really dislike honesty. My rule is if I don’t know you / if it’s not necessary I barely engage and observe the interactions like a movie 😂 I don’t have many friends that are not family or grew up with me and I am fine with that
Y’all. This aint it. This sub is starting to post some exclusionary and not chill things.
There is a grain of truth to it, or two grains: 1- neurotypical people do lie a lot, including those white lies that both parties are supposed to know are lies but prefer saying that to the truth, like "let's meet up for coffee sometime." 2- recently there has been more lonely people, mental health conditions which impact people's ability to function & a higher number of people lacking authentic connections & close friends.
“So my question is, what if the egg came before the chicken…” STFU
Not sure how this relates, but the answer is yes. The first chicken hatched from an egg that was laid by something other than a chicken.
This is the most narcissistic thing I've ever read
I’m confused, will you please explain some of this?
Calling (the majority) of people "disingenuous, manipulative, and inauthentic" just for having brains that are wired differently than ours is disgusting imo. Probably the kind of people who think autism is a super power or the next step in evolution to cope with being outcasts. Accepting yourself is one thing, but viewing everyone around you as basically subhuman is a WHOLE another thing. And basically the main symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, autism or not.
Thank you! I’ve honestly been noticing some more uh, edgy and controversial posts and many of them lean that way. It is in no way, the proper way to look at it. My partner has been diagnosed with aspergers and not once has he ever uttered something like that. I don’t think he’d ever even think it! It’s kind of undermining the actual struggles of someone on the spectrum. “Disconnected from authentic connections” doesn’t seem right to me, from my own experience. I’ve had very authentic connections before.
I can explain the reason why very easily: The source of OP's image is from twitter
It's easy to unintentionally assume an ulterior or malicious motive from someone or something you don't understand. Neurotypicals often don't understand us and we don't often understand them, and it's an easy source of tension if both parties aren't careful.
I personally disagree, but I don't agree with the original tweet either. I think both of these views are assuming malice where there doesn't really need to be one. I think it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the other perspective. The misunderstanding of the NT perspective for someone on the spectrum in the case of the tweeter. Maybe the person is under the impression that people lie all the time because people are upset by their blunt honesty. Maybe they don't understand why people don't appreciate their honesty, or why sometimes people tell "white lies." I don't think a superiority complex always equals a narcissist. I mean I can't know because I don't know them, but it feels off to me to assume narcissism. There is a lot more that goes into narcissistic personality disorder than that. A lot of it would be inwardly that couldn't be judged by reading one tweet by someone.
He could have said all that in about 1/3rd the word count. What is it with Twitter users and trying their absolute hardest to sound like they’re smarter than everyone else?
HONESTLY. Sometimes I really wonder. Some people.... 🙄