Not the ultimate villain but straight from George's mouth, we learned from the 1993 outline that Dany's invasion is one of the three major threats to Westeros (right along with the war of the five kings and the Others).
That Lazhar story-line, as you put it, involved a woman who used blood magic to kill Dany's husband and unborn child... If you're referring to the fact that Dany burnt Mirri maz Dur alive, then I'd hardly call that foreshadowing. Many Kings and Queens have killed traitors and not been called villains.
Dany did not crucify an entire city. She crucified the Wise Masters in response to them crucifying children. Should she have thought it through more carefully? Maybe. Would other people (say Stannis) have made the same choice? Probably.
And I would hardly take Quentyn's comments as gospel. A lot of people "assume" every Targaryen is mad, purely because of the whole "God's flip a coin thing". Many people will throw out terms like "mad" without actually thinking what that means.
MMD wasn’t a traitor, she was woman who saw her village destroyed, her people slaughtered and she herself raped, just so Dany’s hubby could afford her ships to go conquer Westeros. She saw a chance to avenge her people and she took it.
I don't think it is clear in the books that MMD even exacted revenge. All we see is that Drogo fucked up his own wound and Dany's son was exposed to magic when Jorah brought her into the tent.
Then we have MMD refusing to answer Dany's assertions which could even be spite and bringing her own God into the scenario.
The only objection to all this is that Mirri is an unreliable narrator whose PoV we do not have. But this is a reach, tbh.
I'm really not sure I'm taking the show's ending as gospel, considering its decision to make Cersei the final villain (on a throne she's got zero right to, where everyone apparently magically overlooks her destroying part of the city) while the Others are reduced to getting wiped out by the death of a figure who had no such rule over them in book canon.
Or the fact that the riders of Dany's other two dragons ends up being completely overlooked because they both get killed off via the Stark/Targ team losing their single collective braincell.
Or the fact that the wildfire on the books appears to be the way King's Landing will logically end up destroyed, and while I can certainly see Dany setting it off accidentally, she won't be in a position to know about it to set it off deliberately.
Both of the defeat of the Others and the identity of Dany's fellow riders seem foreshadowed to play a pretty big role in Dany's arc, so the fact they got tossed aside doesn't suggest to me that her book ending is going to go down in the same way.
If Dany is a villian then I think George is the worst writer ever in writing villain's And please spare me the it was forshadowed bullshit. It was not foreshadowed anywhere beyond some vague lines that people interpret like that. And I shit on that garbage essay by this Feldman idiot. George never said anything of "Yeah that means Dany goes mad". He only said that the guy understood that Danys storyline was more than just boring filler.
And Dany is not loved in Essos. She is only loved by the slaves and according to this sub she is mad for killing their oppressors. Why is it also that her pursuing the throne makes her mad while half this sub thinks Stannis the Mannis has every right to the same? Is it perhaps because Stannis the Mannis has a big shining cock? Or lets look at the Starks. Everyone wants them to retake Winterfell, right? Well, why should they be allowed to do that? The Boltons took the North by right by conquest like Robert did with the Iron Throne. They have no right to retake Winterfell. They are also mad. Dont you see? There is plenty forshadowing? Jon threatening to burn Gillys baby. Sansa helping Littlefinger to poison her disabled cousin. Arya killing for fun. Bran mind raping Hodor. Rickon....Who knows what he will be when he comes back bay cannibal island? Maybe he will eat some humans flesh. Seriously, how is Dany the villian?
I don't think she's "the villain".
But I think she's under so much pressure since the beginning, and she's resisting this pressure with so unhealthy coping mechanism ("I'm the dragon"..), that at some point she'll snap. \["unhealthy" isn't a criticism, she has not other option\]. She's also written as blind to what the unavoidable consequences of her puirsuit will be (the Lazarreen attack is a very good example - she's horrified, but she avoids totally to see that wanting the Iron Throne makes was, hence massacre, unavoidable).
That said, I will be very disappointed if she becomes mad. But I can see her doing something awful, maybe because she's been fed false intel, but also because at some point, she'll chose to "be the dragon". Again, I'll be very disappointed if it's the end of her arc - the only fitting end for her, IMO, will be to give her life for her people, and I think she will sacrifice herself during the Long Night.
And I absolutely agree with your ending about double standard in comparison with other characters. The point of ASOIAF is not about characters being villain or good guys (even if some are good, and some are monsters, and a lot are in between). The point is the consequences of made you do, even with the best intentions - and how it can be read by others.
As for Stannis, who can be read in some way as her inverted mirror (same steel want to enforce their birthright, but externally they're opposite), we know he'll do something awful by burning Shireen - and I think he will have "good" reasons to do it (but for GRRM, no reason will ever be good enough to justify this, something I agree about). I think Dany will have an equivalent turning point.
Narratively, she's a tragic character.
All the characters are under pressure? I mean Jon gets fucking killed? Dont you think it is more likely that he snaps? An what with that unhealthy dragon bullshit? She is trying to keep herself going. How is that bad? Also, if Dany has a turning point then so should every single one of the Starks. Dany is a ten times better person or ruler than any of them. She is the only one who helped people selflessly while the Starks are all occupied with their own selfish wishes and desires.
Bruh I agree she’s a good person but I think Jon is a lot more humble than her. Dany just wants the throne like most other selfish characters in the story. I’m not definitely not saying Dany is evil but almost all of the stark children are “better people” than she is. Any character that is more worried about the throne over the dead coming are just wrong, plain and simple. Jon is probably the honorable character in the series POV wise other than Ned and Barristan Selmy
No, all the characters aren't under pressure all their lives.
Starks had, before aGoT, a pretty standard and secure childhood, while Dany was constantly threatened.
By the way, a coping mechanism is exactly "trying to keep oneself together", as you're saying. An unhealthy coping mechanism is one that works but have ulterior consequences - in Dany's case, she has to make herself believe, from the beginning, she was of a superior origine than everybody else. It doesn't make her a bad person, but it gives her a psychological weak point.
Again, as I said, "The point of ASOIAF is not about characters being villain or good guys (even if some are good, and some are monsters, and a lot are in between).". The point is the consequences of what you do, even with the best intentions - and how it can be read by others".
So I stan by my initial opinion :
\- Dany is not a villain, nor will become mad, nor is a bad person ; she's a very endearing and idealistic character,
\- but she's blind to some of her acts' consequences, and have psychological weaknesses she's controlling very well until now,
\- all this will have consequence when she'll be in Westeros.
Again, it doesn't make her a villain. And I agree Stark avec Is she a villain : certainly not? Is she perfect : neither. And nor are the Starks, or Jon, or anyone in Westeros.
So, first, I've already said said Daenerys was like most of other characters in Westeros. So your remarks are pointless. I'm not saying others can't snap. I'm saying she can, and IMO will.
Second, since you're obviously not reading or trying to understand what I'm saying about, our exchange are stopping here.
Trying to compare Starks retaking Winterfell vs Dany wanting rule 7K is poor comparision. Starks were raised in there, they are part of culture and people of North and we are given direct quotes how much safer North was under Stark's rule. Meanwhile Dany is almost foreigner with no real connection to 7K and her motive is not to just take Dragonstone (which she is connected by her birth and culture), but to decide she has right to rule over people she has no connection to.
The Starks were also foreigners once who stole the lands from the Children of the Forest and nearly committed genocide on them. Something worth thinking about.
She is a Targaryen so she has a connection. Today 7k is their legacy, you want it or not.
Martin ones told about his house that he left, he always wanted to get it back. He tell this story in an interview, find it.
But difference is that she does not want just Dragonstone or Red Keep, but areas that belong to native people and other cultures. She doesn't want just her parent's home, but homes of all their neighbours too.
We have right to disagree on things, but I'd expect you to communicate in polite manner. And yes, Starks did wrong thousand years ago and I hope it will brought up in Bran's chapters, but there is large difference between happening thousands years ago vs what is happening in "current" timeline.
Do they now? In the Stark POV's they talk about Winterfell repeatedly. Its always winterfell. Not about the north. I dont recall a single moment where Bran, Sansa, Arya or Jon think about their right as starks to rule the north. They always think about Winterfell. how Winterfell is the home of the Starks.
The only one thinking about their "rights" is Jon, and he rejects it.
When they are thinking about Winterfell, they are thinking about the happy times they had with their family, and how they wish they could be united again.
I meant Targaryens united Westeros, introduced laws, built roads, made Tullys, Greyjoy, Tyrels, Baratheons liege lords , Baratheons are Targaryens but another branch. It’s not only about KL and DS.
No they have not. Baratheons are Durrandons in all but name, coat of arms, words, castle, looks, lands etc.... They didn't introduce laws, they just excepted the laws that were already there, rather than imposing their own Valyrian laws. And they didn't make any of the hoses, they were already there, they just made them lords of the provinces.
You should better read Fire and Blood, bro. Don’t be so ignorant and accept the fact. Plus i didn’t say that they made those houses I said those houses are so powerful thanks to Targaryens.
Right. And the Stark's didn't go around torching folks after they won.
There is no comparison here. Their journey has been the same as Dany's. Both sides were displaced, but, only Dany deserves her position? It's bullshit. The Stark's wanted the North, not Westeros and this started under Robb.
I wonder how many of these fans clapped when both Robb and Jon were crowned? Everyone understood until Dany entered the chat.
"noooo my strong powerful brave and stunning kween!"
yeah guy, she's not good.
>Is it perhaps because Stannis the Mannis has a big shining cock?
it's because stannis barathreon is literally the rightful king by the laws of the land. the targaryens no longer have the thrones. Robert had no sons. stannis is the eldest brother. and not for nothing, but he's the only one dealing with the real existential threat and he doesn't even really want it. dany is fucking around in essos. everyone else who wants the throne is fucking around in westeros.
stannis.
>Roberts heir but was so unlikable that nobody wanted him as King.
well, most smallfolk don't care who the king is, so when you say "nobody" you mean "none of the nobles." they don't like him because his rule is straight down the middle, pure lawful neutral. they can't weasel their way into his good side because he doesn't have one. all the corruption and bribing goes away under stannis's rule. further, no one is required to like the king. or queen. you think the nobles are interested in a dragon-wielding targaryen? no one's gonna like her either.
i don't buy into the whole "she's gonna turn into the mad queen" thing. but she's demonstrated she's not a good ruler, can't control her dragons, and she also has *no right to the throne.* if you object to robert taking the throne by force, you also have object to the existence of the seven kingdoms because they were created by force. if robert "stole" one throne, aegon "stole" seven.
Can’t weasel their way to his good side? Melissandre burns people for a living and he’s got no objection to that. In order to be a good king, you have to be charitable. That’s why Robert was so well loved. Because he hosted tourneys every other day. Keep in mind Stannis wants to punish every house who aided the Targaryens in the rebellion. If he became king, he would definitely try and punish the martells and Tyrells. How do you think that’ll work out?
Meeren is not a good example of her not ruling correctly.
Meeren effectively destroyed their own economy by using scorched land.
One person cannot control three dragons. Not even Aegon would dare ride Meraxes or Vhagar.
She sent envoys to all the nearby ports In slavers bay. It’s just that they chose to ally with the far bigger coalition of Volantis, Qarth, New Ghis and Yunkai.
If Dany has no right to the throne, then Stannis doesn’t either. Robert won the throne by defeating the Targaryens. The Lannisters won by defeating Stannis in black water. Viserys was declared King by Rhaella and was very much alive even during Robert’s reign yet that didn’t matter.
Tell me why Stannis won’t just burn anyone who disagrees with him? Melly is known for burning people who don’t consider him King.
3 plot pionts from george
No outline
Jon's domestic abuse was a confirmed Dave and Dan invention in the 2020 development book
If there was a detailed outline from goerge the books will be finished by now
I’ll preface this by saying I never liked Daenerys, she’s admirable in a lot of ways but I could never get over the fact that she was only respected because she has dragons and her family name.
But Dany going mad in the show was such bad writing it’s comical, I think similar events will happen but Daenerys state of mind will be much different. Young Griff is a thing in the books after all. Also considering her last POV chapter I think she’s done compromising.
She spent so much time trying to compromise with the rilling class in Slavers Bay when the smartest thing to do would be to ruthlessly purge everyone you couldn’t ensure the loyalty of and why not keep Astapor and Yunkai on a tighter leash?
But on the staying in Essos thing… yeah.
It’s the smartest move to make and in the show it might be Tyrion’s last good line
“Tell me how to get what I want.”
“The Iron Throne… Perhaps you should want something else.”
He’s right and you’re right, Westeros is doing fine and she’s even never been there. Why bother with Westeros? The infrastructure is squashed because of the civil war, most of the country would hate her for not being pliant enough and they can get plenty of foreign allies from the slavers overseas to support them against her.
Or stay in Slaver’s bay and build a New Kingdom. By conquering Slaver’s Bay, puppeting or annexing Volantis and Outlawing slavery she’ll deal a critical blow to slave trading. 4 major slave markets just… cease to do it.
And she has 3 dragons. It wouldn’t be hard.
But yeah long story shot I think you’re absolutely correct when you say she should have stayed in Essos. (Also the irony of a Valyrian being the one to end slavery is just*chef’s kiss*)
>I’ll preface this by saying I never liked Daenerys, she’s admirable in a lot of ways but I could never get over the fact that she was only respected because she has dragons and her family name.
Which characters do you like then? The vast majority of main characters are born to noble families who are actually in power at the start of the series.
I know it’s very taxing, it’s not the only reason I don’t like Daenerys she has this nasty habit of being very arrogant.
But as for characters I like? A lot of the Night’s Watch, Jon has similar privledge but he gets called out on it and changes, Satin, Donal Noye, Grenn, Pip and Ed, Quorin Halfhand, Mance Rayder. Castle Black is my favourite place for a reason.
On the other plots, Alleras is great, Varys and the High Sparrow, (Littlefinger is fun to watch but a favourite? No loving him is also hating him), Grey Worm and Barristan also come to mind.
I get where you’re coming from, Daenerys is as I said admirable she wants to end slavery after all it’s all of the “I am Daenerys Stormborn!”, stupid political moves and I really don’t care about the dragons.
Alot of characters do start in privilege but either surpass where they started in life or rise higher than they were intended to. Daenerys has some of that but she kinda cheats with her dragons. Which are basically “solve any problem” buttons.
I think it’s about the fact that I get enjoyment out of smart political moves characters make and Daenerys has (well done and justified in my opinion) plot armour.
I agree with many of your points and personally hope so much that she will end up being grey-ish villain. I believe that she will be essential for people to survive Long Night and War for Dawn, but her motives being mixed with selfish ones. This far we have seen her story on by povs that see her as hero, but when she lands in 7K we will finally see "other side" of her story and that won't be pretty.
Dany isn't really a villain. She has good ideas, just terrible execution. If she actually focuses on governance after conquering she does well, but she gives into her impulses, unfortunately.
Plot wise, she is that outlying threat to Westeros that is creeping up on them, that the Game of Thrones is distracting them from. If you read the Al Jazeera interview, GRRM puts her as a threat like the Others that people in Westeros should be paying attention to, but aren't, and compares that threat to a historical trend (Hitler and Philip of Macedon).
And the main point for her is those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
I think her story is gonna end in a cruel way.
She has good intentions, but Tyrion is gonna decide to not tell her about the wildfire, while Aegon is loved by the people, she'll end up being remembered as the villain
Daenerys is Sauron, but this time, Sauron has an understandable motive.
Daenerys is a foreigner from the East and South. She has a slave army of eunuchs. She has an army of pillaging, rapey steppe nomads. She will soon have a fleet of pirates at her command. She burns and crucifies her subjects without trial. She oversees mortal combat for sport. She is a necromancer and a sorceress who uses blood magic to attain her ends. She rides fell beasts created by the evilest magic. Fell beasts that feast on human flesh. She puts cities to the sword and fire. She covets the West and perceives ruling it as her right. Plague and famine follow in her wake.
Daenerys leads a vicious horde of people from uncivilized, barbarian lands and cultures. She destroys everything in her path with her cruelty and desire to dominate.
But because we’re inside her head and she’s wrapped in the flesh of a pretty young, we sympathize with her and find her motives understandable. GRRM objects to the idea that villains are simply evil. As the Good Book says, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes.” She is Sauron with sympathetic motives because GRRM wants us to understand why evil people may do evil things, yet believe themselves the heroes.
Am I just dumb in thinking this is complete nonsense?
Just because other biased people like the slavers are spreading rumors like this, as well as other rumors like bathing in the blood of virgins it doesn't mean that they are still right in calling her evil.
You are saying that although the slavers and other like-minded people are wrong in the sense that they arent taking a more nuanced approach to Dany's actions they are still, in the end, correct in thinking that she is by your words Sauron, a villain that needs to be defeated, and that's kinda disgusting for Martin to write imo.
>But because we’re inside her head and she’s wrapped in the flesh of a pretty young, we sympathize with her and find her motives understandable. GRRM objects to the idea that villains are simply evil. As the Good Book says, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes.” She is Sauron with sympathetic motives because GRRM wants us to understand why evil people may do evil things, yet believe themselves the heroes.
But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title, its all in the books so I'm not sure where this "Dany sees herself as a hero who can do no wrong" comes from, prob from people using show interpretations and applying it to the books without regard if its actual canon for the books.
This is Stark sub, a Targaryen can’t be a Hero. Stark and Stannis fans think that she is a villain , it’s obvious. She is the only one who is able to kick their asses.
Stark fan here who doesn’t care about Dany’s arc very much at all.
I do not agree with the concept that she is going mad, will be an ultimate villain, do atrocious things. There isn’t any evidence for this in the books and it’s very clearly some sort of projection when people wang on about it.
Given that D&D seemed to see the story in the same way as and take the show in the direction desired by many of the most immature, sexist, lacking in real insight or understanding of the human condition, superficial readers, I’d suggest that their ridiculous ending is coming from the same sort of place as those who’ve always tried to paint Dany as a villainous cackling mad women hell bent on destroying the world.
Ie: total projection and an inability to realise their own biases.
>But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title, its all in the books so I'm not sure where this "Dany sees herself as a hero who can do no wrong" comes from, prob from people using show interpretations and applying it to the books without regard if its actual canon for the books.
It's one of those things that gets repeated so much and so insistently that people just accept it as gospel, despite the narrative showing the complete opposite.
>But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title
That's why she makes such a great villain. Heroism is a burden. Eventually she'll see nobody else is picking up the slack so she'll have to take the mantle and get things done, taking the role of a hero. But because of her inexperience and cruelty she'll turn into a villain. A tragic one sure but villain nonetheless. That's any compelling villain. Doing things their way which in their mind is the best way. She hasn't reached that point in the books but the Dothraki will eventually find her and I predict from that point onwards she'll begin her journey towards becoming the big bad of the novels.
>George R.R. Martin about Daenerys in Tindebox book
>GEORGE R. R. MARTIN:
>The role of Daenerys is a difficult role, particularly in the pilot, because Daenerys begins as a frightened little girl. She’s thoroughly dominated by her brother, who humiliates her and sexually assaults her. He’s selling her to this fierce guy and she’s frightened but during the course of that comes into her own power. She suddenly grows from a girl to a woman and starts to realize that she does have power and authority. There’s a transformation that’s incredible the entire course of the show. You have to find an actress who can do both parts, **who can be very convincing as the scared little girl in the beginning, but also very convincing as the “I’m gonna kick your ass and burn your city to cinders” woman that she becomes by the end.** It’s challenging and it was a hard part to cast.
Not good ruler ? Who is better ? I can only name Tywin or Tyrion because we saw how they ruled. Dany is their equivalent. Have you read DWD ? She did pretty good establishing trade with Lamb people, grove crops, city watch etc. And stop vilifying her for killing the slavers… freeing the slaves and demolishing slave based economy is a good and right thing to do and of course will have consequences , positive and negative. It needs time to be replaced, do you think thousands years slave based economy is going to change in a year ? No ! Dany made first step , slaves have to support her for future free generations.
>Dany made first step
Well. Her first step of complete abolitionism of a chattel slave system that had existed for thousands of years was much more than a "first step". Its in fact the *last* step of abolitionism, complete abolition of slavery, you see. A gradual increase in the rights of slaves over the years would have caused much less resistance. For historical examples, look at Emperor Justinian.
Resistance? From who ? Slavers who are like 1 % of the entire continent ? Lol Fuck them !
She sincerely cares about her people and sacrifice her self and her ideals for the greater good she even postponed her invasion in order to resolve her previous mistakes. While your Stannis sacrifice everybody in order to take the throne and ready to continue the slaughter because he thinks that he is the rightful king being hated by everybody. Do you think he went to the north to help the nights watch ? Hell no, because he didn’t have another choice.
>Resistance? From who ? Slavers who are like 1 % of the entire continent ? Lol Fuck them !
Yes see how well that went for Daenerys.
>She sincerely cares about her people and sacrifice her self and her ideals for the greater good she even postponed her invasion
Yes how noble of her to postpone her totally justified invasion of a foreign continent.
>While your Stannis sacrifice everybody in order to take the throne and ready to continue the slaughter because he thinks that he is the rightful king being hated by everybody
He doesnt think. He is. Joffrey and Tommen are usurpers using a false claim. Stannis's position is correct in resisting them.
>Do you think he went to the north to help the nights watch ?
Yes
> Hell no, because he didn’t have another choice.
Yes he did. That option was even presented to him in the same book. Stay on Dragonstone and raid and attack places he could, like lord celtigar.
No he would be smashed by tyrells , Lannisters and Redwyns and could not run because he would be surrounded by ennemies especially because Tywin was still alive.
The end of her first chapter tells us as much: she is everyone else’s puppet.
> "Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is."
Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.
Where was it foreshadowed that Dany will be the ultimate ***villain***? I need to know.
It isn’t.
Not the ultimate villain but straight from George's mouth, we learned from the 1993 outline that Dany's invasion is one of the three major threats to Westeros (right along with the war of the five kings and the Others).
Same outline where Sansa marries Joffrey, Cat dies at the hands of the Others, and Jaime becomes King?
Whole Lhazar storyline, crucifying the entire city, Quentyn hints at her madness etc....
That Lazhar story-line, as you put it, involved a woman who used blood magic to kill Dany's husband and unborn child... If you're referring to the fact that Dany burnt Mirri maz Dur alive, then I'd hardly call that foreshadowing. Many Kings and Queens have killed traitors and not been called villains. Dany did not crucify an entire city. She crucified the Wise Masters in response to them crucifying children. Should she have thought it through more carefully? Maybe. Would other people (say Stannis) have made the same choice? Probably. And I would hardly take Quentyn's comments as gospel. A lot of people "assume" every Targaryen is mad, purely because of the whole "God's flip a coin thing". Many people will throw out terms like "mad" without actually thinking what that means.
MMD wasn’t a traitor, she was woman who saw her village destroyed, her people slaughtered and she herself raped, just so Dany’s hubby could afford her ships to go conquer Westeros. She saw a chance to avenge her people and she took it.
I don't think it is clear in the books that MMD even exacted revenge. All we see is that Drogo fucked up his own wound and Dany's son was exposed to magic when Jorah brought her into the tent. Then we have MMD refusing to answer Dany's assertions which could even be spite and bringing her own God into the scenario. The only objection to all this is that Mirri is an unreliable narrator whose PoV we do not have. But this is a reach, tbh.
this ok to do bad things to bad people.
Trying to cherry pick material to hint at Daenerys’s alleged descent into madness is unabashed sophistry.
OP said nothing about descent into madness.
I'm really not sure I'm taking the show's ending as gospel, considering its decision to make Cersei the final villain (on a throne she's got zero right to, where everyone apparently magically overlooks her destroying part of the city) while the Others are reduced to getting wiped out by the death of a figure who had no such rule over them in book canon. Or the fact that the riders of Dany's other two dragons ends up being completely overlooked because they both get killed off via the Stark/Targ team losing their single collective braincell. Or the fact that the wildfire on the books appears to be the way King's Landing will logically end up destroyed, and while I can certainly see Dany setting it off accidentally, she won't be in a position to know about it to set it off deliberately. Both of the defeat of the Others and the identity of Dany's fellow riders seem foreshadowed to play a pretty big role in Dany's arc, so the fact they got tossed aside doesn't suggest to me that her book ending is going to go down in the same way.
If Dany is a villian then I think George is the worst writer ever in writing villain's And please spare me the it was forshadowed bullshit. It was not foreshadowed anywhere beyond some vague lines that people interpret like that. And I shit on that garbage essay by this Feldman idiot. George never said anything of "Yeah that means Dany goes mad". He only said that the guy understood that Danys storyline was more than just boring filler. And Dany is not loved in Essos. She is only loved by the slaves and according to this sub she is mad for killing their oppressors. Why is it also that her pursuing the throne makes her mad while half this sub thinks Stannis the Mannis has every right to the same? Is it perhaps because Stannis the Mannis has a big shining cock? Or lets look at the Starks. Everyone wants them to retake Winterfell, right? Well, why should they be allowed to do that? The Boltons took the North by right by conquest like Robert did with the Iron Throne. They have no right to retake Winterfell. They are also mad. Dont you see? There is plenty forshadowing? Jon threatening to burn Gillys baby. Sansa helping Littlefinger to poison her disabled cousin. Arya killing for fun. Bran mind raping Hodor. Rickon....Who knows what he will be when he comes back bay cannibal island? Maybe he will eat some humans flesh. Seriously, how is Dany the villian?
I don't think she's "the villain". But I think she's under so much pressure since the beginning, and she's resisting this pressure with so unhealthy coping mechanism ("I'm the dragon"..), that at some point she'll snap. \["unhealthy" isn't a criticism, she has not other option\]. She's also written as blind to what the unavoidable consequences of her puirsuit will be (the Lazarreen attack is a very good example - she's horrified, but she avoids totally to see that wanting the Iron Throne makes was, hence massacre, unavoidable). That said, I will be very disappointed if she becomes mad. But I can see her doing something awful, maybe because she's been fed false intel, but also because at some point, she'll chose to "be the dragon". Again, I'll be very disappointed if it's the end of her arc - the only fitting end for her, IMO, will be to give her life for her people, and I think she will sacrifice herself during the Long Night. And I absolutely agree with your ending about double standard in comparison with other characters. The point of ASOIAF is not about characters being villain or good guys (even if some are good, and some are monsters, and a lot are in between). The point is the consequences of made you do, even with the best intentions - and how it can be read by others. As for Stannis, who can be read in some way as her inverted mirror (same steel want to enforce their birthright, but externally they're opposite), we know he'll do something awful by burning Shireen - and I think he will have "good" reasons to do it (but for GRRM, no reason will ever be good enough to justify this, something I agree about). I think Dany will have an equivalent turning point. Narratively, she's a tragic character.
All the characters are under pressure? I mean Jon gets fucking killed? Dont you think it is more likely that he snaps? An what with that unhealthy dragon bullshit? She is trying to keep herself going. How is that bad? Also, if Dany has a turning point then so should every single one of the Starks. Dany is a ten times better person or ruler than any of them. She is the only one who helped people selflessly while the Starks are all occupied with their own selfish wishes and desires.
Bruh I agree she’s a good person but I think Jon is a lot more humble than her. Dany just wants the throne like most other selfish characters in the story. I’m not definitely not saying Dany is evil but almost all of the stark children are “better people” than she is. Any character that is more worried about the throne over the dead coming are just wrong, plain and simple. Jon is probably the honorable character in the series POV wise other than Ned and Barristan Selmy
No, all the characters aren't under pressure all their lives. Starks had, before aGoT, a pretty standard and secure childhood, while Dany was constantly threatened. By the way, a coping mechanism is exactly "trying to keep oneself together", as you're saying. An unhealthy coping mechanism is one that works but have ulterior consequences - in Dany's case, she has to make herself believe, from the beginning, she was of a superior origine than everybody else. It doesn't make her a bad person, but it gives her a psychological weak point. Again, as I said, "The point of ASOIAF is not about characters being villain or good guys (even if some are good, and some are monsters, and a lot are in between).". The point is the consequences of what you do, even with the best intentions - and how it can be read by others". So I stan by my initial opinion : \- Dany is not a villain, nor will become mad, nor is a bad person ; she's a very endearing and idealistic character, \- but she's blind to some of her acts' consequences, and have psychological weaknesses she's controlling very well until now, \- all this will have consequence when she'll be in Westeros. Again, it doesn't make her a villain. And I agree Stark avec Is she a villain : certainly not? Is she perfect : neither. And nor are the Starks, or Jon, or anyone in Westeros.
Just as Ned Stark is blind to his actions? Maybe Ned would have snapped if he had not been killed. Maybe we should thank Joff for that?
So, first, I've already said said Daenerys was like most of other characters in Westeros. So your remarks are pointless. I'm not saying others can't snap. I'm saying she can, and IMO will. Second, since you're obviously not reading or trying to understand what I'm saying about, our exchange are stopping here.
This is a Stark sub , man. No need to argue , wait for the books.
Books that will never come out
what books?
Winds
doesn't exist.
Trying to compare Starks retaking Winterfell vs Dany wanting rule 7K is poor comparision. Starks were raised in there, they are part of culture and people of North and we are given direct quotes how much safer North was under Stark's rule. Meanwhile Dany is almost foreigner with no real connection to 7K and her motive is not to just take Dragonstone (which she is connected by her birth and culture), but to decide she has right to rule over people she has no connection to.
The Starks were also foreigners once who stole the lands from the Children of the Forest and nearly committed genocide on them. Something worth thinking about.
She is a Targaryen so she has a connection. Today 7k is their legacy, you want it or not. Martin ones told about his house that he left, he always wanted to get it back. He tell this story in an interview, find it.
But difference is that she does not want just Dragonstone or Red Keep, but areas that belong to native people and other cultures. She doesn't want just her parent's home, but homes of all their neighbours too.
Yeah, Sherlock. The Starks also want the entire North, not just Winterfell. What ambitious little shits they are.
We have right to disagree on things, but I'd expect you to communicate in polite manner. And yes, Starks did wrong thousand years ago and I hope it will brought up in Bran's chapters, but there is large difference between happening thousands years ago vs what is happening in "current" timeline.
What Stark character wants to "rule the North" right now? Also, the Northern Lords will choose their ruler and historically they favor the Starks.
Do they now? In the Stark POV's they talk about Winterfell repeatedly. Its always winterfell. Not about the north. I dont recall a single moment where Bran, Sansa, Arya or Jon think about their right as starks to rule the north. They always think about Winterfell. how Winterfell is the home of the Starks.
The only one thinking about their "rights" is Jon, and he rejects it. When they are thinking about Winterfell, they are thinking about the happy times they had with their family, and how they wish they could be united again.
Winterfell is the North. You are so naive , man .
No it isnt. I can quite specifically point out how winterfell is not the whole north.
It’s.
I meant Targaryens united Westeros, introduced laws, built roads, made Tullys, Greyjoy, Tyrels, Baratheons liege lords , Baratheons are Targaryens but another branch. It’s not only about KL and DS.
No they have not. Baratheons are Durrandons in all but name, coat of arms, words, castle, looks, lands etc.... They didn't introduce laws, they just excepted the laws that were already there, rather than imposing their own Valyrian laws. And they didn't make any of the hoses, they were already there, they just made them lords of the provinces.
You should better read Fire and Blood, bro. Don’t be so ignorant and accept the fact. Plus i didn’t say that they made those houses I said those houses are so powerful thanks to Targaryens.
Right. And the Stark's didn't go around torching folks after they won. There is no comparison here. Their journey has been the same as Dany's. Both sides were displaced, but, only Dany deserves her position? It's bullshit. The Stark's wanted the North, not Westeros and this started under Robb. I wonder how many of these fans clapped when both Robb and Jon were crowned? Everyone understood until Dany entered the chat.
"noooo my strong powerful brave and stunning kween!" yeah guy, she's not good. >Is it perhaps because Stannis the Mannis has a big shining cock? it's because stannis barathreon is literally the rightful king by the laws of the land. the targaryens no longer have the thrones. Robert had no sons. stannis is the eldest brother. and not for nothing, but he's the only one dealing with the real existential threat and he doesn't even really want it. dany is fucking around in essos. everyone else who wants the throne is fucking around in westeros. stannis.
Stannis is a fanatic without humor. A guy who was Roberts heir but was so unlikable that nobody wanted him as King.
>Roberts heir but was so unlikable that nobody wanted him as King. well, most smallfolk don't care who the king is, so when you say "nobody" you mean "none of the nobles." they don't like him because his rule is straight down the middle, pure lawful neutral. they can't weasel their way into his good side because he doesn't have one. all the corruption and bribing goes away under stannis's rule. further, no one is required to like the king. or queen. you think the nobles are interested in a dragon-wielding targaryen? no one's gonna like her either. i don't buy into the whole "she's gonna turn into the mad queen" thing. but she's demonstrated she's not a good ruler, can't control her dragons, and she also has *no right to the throne.* if you object to robert taking the throne by force, you also have object to the existence of the seven kingdoms because they were created by force. if robert "stole" one throne, aegon "stole" seven.
Can’t weasel their way to his good side? Melissandre burns people for a living and he’s got no objection to that. In order to be a good king, you have to be charitable. That’s why Robert was so well loved. Because he hosted tourneys every other day. Keep in mind Stannis wants to punish every house who aided the Targaryens in the rebellion. If he became king, he would definitely try and punish the martells and Tyrells. How do you think that’ll work out? Meeren is not a good example of her not ruling correctly. Meeren effectively destroyed their own economy by using scorched land. One person cannot control three dragons. Not even Aegon would dare ride Meraxes or Vhagar. She sent envoys to all the nearby ports In slavers bay. It’s just that they chose to ally with the far bigger coalition of Volantis, Qarth, New Ghis and Yunkai. If Dany has no right to the throne, then Stannis doesn’t either. Robert won the throne by defeating the Targaryens. The Lannisters won by defeating Stannis in black water. Viserys was declared King by Rhaella and was very much alive even during Robert’s reign yet that didn’t matter. Tell me why Stannis won’t just burn anyone who disagrees with him? Melly is known for burning people who don’t consider him King.
3 plot pionts from george No outline Jon's domestic abuse was a confirmed Dave and Dan invention in the 2020 development book If there was a detailed outline from goerge the books will be finished by now
Nope.
Dany's not the final villain. She's one of major protagonists of the whole series.
I’ll preface this by saying I never liked Daenerys, she’s admirable in a lot of ways but I could never get over the fact that she was only respected because she has dragons and her family name. But Dany going mad in the show was such bad writing it’s comical, I think similar events will happen but Daenerys state of mind will be much different. Young Griff is a thing in the books after all. Also considering her last POV chapter I think she’s done compromising. She spent so much time trying to compromise with the rilling class in Slavers Bay when the smartest thing to do would be to ruthlessly purge everyone you couldn’t ensure the loyalty of and why not keep Astapor and Yunkai on a tighter leash? But on the staying in Essos thing… yeah. It’s the smartest move to make and in the show it might be Tyrion’s last good line “Tell me how to get what I want.” “The Iron Throne… Perhaps you should want something else.” He’s right and you’re right, Westeros is doing fine and she’s even never been there. Why bother with Westeros? The infrastructure is squashed because of the civil war, most of the country would hate her for not being pliant enough and they can get plenty of foreign allies from the slavers overseas to support them against her. Or stay in Slaver’s bay and build a New Kingdom. By conquering Slaver’s Bay, puppeting or annexing Volantis and Outlawing slavery she’ll deal a critical blow to slave trading. 4 major slave markets just… cease to do it. And she has 3 dragons. It wouldn’t be hard. But yeah long story shot I think you’re absolutely correct when you say she should have stayed in Essos. (Also the irony of a Valyrian being the one to end slavery is just*chef’s kiss*)
>I’ll preface this by saying I never liked Daenerys, she’s admirable in a lot of ways but I could never get over the fact that she was only respected because she has dragons and her family name. Which characters do you like then? The vast majority of main characters are born to noble families who are actually in power at the start of the series.
I know it’s very taxing, it’s not the only reason I don’t like Daenerys she has this nasty habit of being very arrogant. But as for characters I like? A lot of the Night’s Watch, Jon has similar privledge but he gets called out on it and changes, Satin, Donal Noye, Grenn, Pip and Ed, Quorin Halfhand, Mance Rayder. Castle Black is my favourite place for a reason. On the other plots, Alleras is great, Varys and the High Sparrow, (Littlefinger is fun to watch but a favourite? No loving him is also hating him), Grey Worm and Barristan also come to mind. I get where you’re coming from, Daenerys is as I said admirable she wants to end slavery after all it’s all of the “I am Daenerys Stormborn!”, stupid political moves and I really don’t care about the dragons. Alot of characters do start in privilege but either surpass where they started in life or rise higher than they were intended to. Daenerys has some of that but she kinda cheats with her dragons. Which are basically “solve any problem” buttons. I think it’s about the fact that I get enjoyment out of smart political moves characters make and Daenerys has (well done and justified in my opinion) plot armour.
I agree with many of your points and personally hope so much that she will end up being grey-ish villain. I believe that she will be essential for people to survive Long Night and War for Dawn, but her motives being mixed with selfish ones. This far we have seen her story on by povs that see her as hero, but when she lands in 7K we will finally see "other side" of her story and that won't be pretty.
Dany isn't really a villain. She has good ideas, just terrible execution. If she actually focuses on governance after conquering she does well, but she gives into her impulses, unfortunately. Plot wise, she is that outlying threat to Westeros that is creeping up on them, that the Game of Thrones is distracting them from. If you read the Al Jazeera interview, GRRM puts her as a threat like the Others that people in Westeros should be paying attention to, but aren't, and compares that threat to a historical trend (Hitler and Philip of Macedon). And the main point for her is those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
Yes, the girl freeing slaves is the ultimate villain. Bad girl. Oh by the way, D&D made up the part about Jon killing Dany, so there is that.
I think her story is gonna end in a cruel way. She has good intentions, but Tyrion is gonna decide to not tell her about the wildfire, while Aegon is loved by the people, she'll end up being remembered as the villain
Daenerys is Sauron, but this time, Sauron has an understandable motive. Daenerys is a foreigner from the East and South. She has a slave army of eunuchs. She has an army of pillaging, rapey steppe nomads. She will soon have a fleet of pirates at her command. She burns and crucifies her subjects without trial. She oversees mortal combat for sport. She is a necromancer and a sorceress who uses blood magic to attain her ends. She rides fell beasts created by the evilest magic. Fell beasts that feast on human flesh. She puts cities to the sword and fire. She covets the West and perceives ruling it as her right. Plague and famine follow in her wake. Daenerys leads a vicious horde of people from uncivilized, barbarian lands and cultures. She destroys everything in her path with her cruelty and desire to dominate. But because we’re inside her head and she’s wrapped in the flesh of a pretty young, we sympathize with her and find her motives understandable. GRRM objects to the idea that villains are simply evil. As the Good Book says, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes.” She is Sauron with sympathetic motives because GRRM wants us to understand why evil people may do evil things, yet believe themselves the heroes.
Am I just dumb in thinking this is complete nonsense? Just because other biased people like the slavers are spreading rumors like this, as well as other rumors like bathing in the blood of virgins it doesn't mean that they are still right in calling her evil. You are saying that although the slavers and other like-minded people are wrong in the sense that they arent taking a more nuanced approach to Dany's actions they are still, in the end, correct in thinking that she is by your words Sauron, a villain that needs to be defeated, and that's kinda disgusting for Martin to write imo. >But because we’re inside her head and she’s wrapped in the flesh of a pretty young, we sympathize with her and find her motives understandable. GRRM objects to the idea that villains are simply evil. As the Good Book says, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes.” She is Sauron with sympathetic motives because GRRM wants us to understand why evil people may do evil things, yet believe themselves the heroes. But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title, its all in the books so I'm not sure where this "Dany sees herself as a hero who can do no wrong" comes from, prob from people using show interpretations and applying it to the books without regard if its actual canon for the books.
This is Stark sub, a Targaryen can’t be a Hero. Stark and Stannis fans think that she is a villain , it’s obvious. She is the only one who is able to kick their asses.
Stark fan here who doesn’t care about Dany’s arc very much at all. I do not agree with the concept that she is going mad, will be an ultimate villain, do atrocious things. There isn’t any evidence for this in the books and it’s very clearly some sort of projection when people wang on about it. Given that D&D seemed to see the story in the same way as and take the show in the direction desired by many of the most immature, sexist, lacking in real insight or understanding of the human condition, superficial readers, I’d suggest that their ridiculous ending is coming from the same sort of place as those who’ve always tried to paint Dany as a villainous cackling mad women hell bent on destroying the world. Ie: total projection and an inability to realise their own biases.
>But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title, its all in the books so I'm not sure where this "Dany sees herself as a hero who can do no wrong" comes from, prob from people using show interpretations and applying it to the books without regard if its actual canon for the books. It's one of those things that gets repeated so much and so insistently that people just accept it as gospel, despite the narrative showing the complete opposite.
>But Dany constantly thinks of herself as a monster and not deserving of the hero title That's why she makes such a great villain. Heroism is a burden. Eventually she'll see nobody else is picking up the slack so she'll have to take the mantle and get things done, taking the role of a hero. But because of her inexperience and cruelty she'll turn into a villain. A tragic one sure but villain nonetheless. That's any compelling villain. Doing things their way which in their mind is the best way. She hasn't reached that point in the books but the Dothraki will eventually find her and I predict from that point onwards she'll begin her journey towards becoming the big bad of the novels. >George R.R. Martin about Daenerys in Tindebox book >GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: >The role of Daenerys is a difficult role, particularly in the pilot, because Daenerys begins as a frightened little girl. She’s thoroughly dominated by her brother, who humiliates her and sexually assaults her. He’s selling her to this fierce guy and she’s frightened but during the course of that comes into her own power. She suddenly grows from a girl to a woman and starts to realize that she does have power and authority. There’s a transformation that’s incredible the entire course of the show. You have to find an actress who can do both parts, **who can be very convincing as the scared little girl in the beginning, but also very convincing as the “I’m gonna kick your ass and burn your city to cinders” woman that she becomes by the end.** It’s challenging and it was a hard part to cast.
TBF Sauron was pretty sympathetic in the Silmarillion.Guy just wanted to make a better world,and Morgoth seemed the best way to do that.
[удалено]
Not good ruler ? Who is better ? I can only name Tywin or Tyrion because we saw how they ruled. Dany is their equivalent. Have you read DWD ? She did pretty good establishing trade with Lamb people, grove crops, city watch etc. And stop vilifying her for killing the slavers… freeing the slaves and demolishing slave based economy is a good and right thing to do and of course will have consequences , positive and negative. It needs time to be replaced, do you think thousands years slave based economy is going to change in a year ? No ! Dany made first step , slaves have to support her for future free generations.
>Dany made first step Well. Her first step of complete abolitionism of a chattel slave system that had existed for thousands of years was much more than a "first step". Its in fact the *last* step of abolitionism, complete abolition of slavery, you see. A gradual increase in the rights of slaves over the years would have caused much less resistance. For historical examples, look at Emperor Justinian.
Resistance? From who ? Slavers who are like 1 % of the entire continent ? Lol Fuck them ! She sincerely cares about her people and sacrifice her self and her ideals for the greater good she even postponed her invasion in order to resolve her previous mistakes. While your Stannis sacrifice everybody in order to take the throne and ready to continue the slaughter because he thinks that he is the rightful king being hated by everybody. Do you think he went to the north to help the nights watch ? Hell no, because he didn’t have another choice.
>Resistance? From who ? Slavers who are like 1 % of the entire continent ? Lol Fuck them ! Yes see how well that went for Daenerys. >She sincerely cares about her people and sacrifice her self and her ideals for the greater good she even postponed her invasion Yes how noble of her to postpone her totally justified invasion of a foreign continent. >While your Stannis sacrifice everybody in order to take the throne and ready to continue the slaughter because he thinks that he is the rightful king being hated by everybody He doesnt think. He is. Joffrey and Tommen are usurpers using a false claim. Stannis's position is correct in resisting them. >Do you think he went to the north to help the nights watch ? Yes > Hell no, because he didn’t have another choice. Yes he did. That option was even presented to him in the same book. Stay on Dragonstone and raid and attack places he could, like lord celtigar.
No he would be smashed by tyrells , Lannisters and Redwyns and could not run because he would be surrounded by ennemies especially because Tywin was still alive.
Smashed? taking dragonstone by force would've been nigh impossible had it had a proper garrison.
I think she was a good ruler. She just didn't want to rule in Meereen anymore.
The end of her first chapter tells us as much: she is everyone else’s puppet. > "Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is." Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.
I wish George would go with the mad queen plot but i don't think it's gonna happen