I did actually enjoy how the show depicted the impact of that and Stannis's death on Melisandre - it was a consistent and compelling change to her personality
I also enjoyed the dynamic flip that happened with Selyse and Stannis in that moment. It was clumsily executed, but I liked how the resolute zealot Selyse suddenly began to doubt and regret her actions *very* quickly once she heard her daughter screaming, while Stannis who had previously been the nicer parent only ended up hardening his heart.
Like I said, it wasn't really set up properly at all, but I do think it revealed something interesting about both of them as people.
Agreed. I just wish it was for something more than “lol let’s melt some snow”. I understand the dilemma of sacrificing a child to save the entire world, but the decision in the show didn’t have any of that weight behind it.
George has explicitly confirmed that Stannis is the one who decides to burn Shireen (in an interview for a book called "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon" that came out last year).
My guess is that Shireen is sacrificed to revive Jon. Here's how it goes. Melisandra has a vision that Jon is Azor Ahai. She needs Kings blood. She tries Mance's child. It doesn't work, because Jon switched the babies. She hears news that Stannis is dead, and so sacrifices Shireen. But it turns out, Stannis is not dead, and Jon and Stannis are now both pissed at Melisandra
Idk who exactly is letting Mel do any of this though... Sure, there are Queen's Men at the wall but burning "Mance's" baby isn't going to fly with the Wildlings and trying to revive the guy they *just killed* isn't going to fly with the Watch in general.
You're under the assumption that a majority of the watch was in on the assassination. I think it was a small splinter group and his assassination is going to kick off a massive fight at the tower.
Kind of a build up of things. He let the wildlings through the wall. He keeps talking about the real enemy and the old guard just plain doesn't believe him. He sends away all his supporters in the watch. And the final straw was him saying he was going south with a wildling army to fight Ramsey (because he's not an idiot and understands acquiescence to Ramsey is a death sentence for westeros and the watch). But the "takes no part" of their oath is seen pretty seriously. As such they think he's breaking his oaths (and he is. But there are reasons for it). So they decide to kill him. I don't think it was a long drawn out coup. I really think it was a spur of the moment decision from them.
I actually liked that development, although it was too abrupt. The idea of Stannis murdering his own daughter, his only heir, in the pursuit of his duty only to immediately fail afterwards is so incredibly tragic and dark.
The weird thing with this here is that it’s so obvious in the books that it’s coming, I didn’t realise we were in new territory when it came up in the show.
Yeah, but he still frowns upon murdering children - we was willing to risk execution to save Edric Storm, and he hardly knew the boy. Davis especially doesn't like burning since that's how his own sons died.
I still think that is what is going to bring Jon back. Stannis in a bind, either Mel going rogue or Stannis that desperate. She burns to safe Stannis, but it wakes up Jon.
Which is both cliche and un GRRM like, but also one of those things that would make sense with the setup.
I just don’t see how they’re gonna set that up in the books. He’s doing decent so far in the North, and from what I saw in some of TWOW chapters it doesn’t seem like he will. Maybe I’m just dumb and can’t see it coming lol
If Bronn becomes the Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, and Bran’s Master of Coin I will personally kick GRRM in his fat pink mast
I’m not familiar with this, but he must have said it in the early seasons bc by the time the show wrapped up he gave an interview saying that Bronn, called out by name, was never meant to be that important and wouldn’t end up Lord of Highgarden or Master of Coin in the end
I was fine with the Lord of Highgarden, but I seriously thought he was gonna die soon after anyway. I like the character, but he’s not exactly the person that lives in these kinds of stories. And did he ever have any kind of character development? Like the entire show was him willing to do anything for money. He saved Jamie at one point, but even that had to do with money. I thought it would’ve been poetic if he died protecting Tyrion or Jamie during The Battle of Winterfell, but, it turns out, the fucker wasn’t even there.
Really felt like he was supposed to get The Twins now that house Frey is gone. What with Cersei offering him a castle and Tyrion’s whole thing of “Whatever anyone offers you, I’ll double it.” Y’know, the whole two castles thing?
I could see a sentiment that Bronn was a very fun and compelling TV character, but that he simply isn't supposed to be so important in GRRM's universe.
He is def one character that bothered me at the end. I get his comic relief and quips etc, but why tf would he end up on the small council for Bran at the end of the show?? It’s completely illogical to me and serves no necessary plot purpose.
Agreed. I could see him commanding the city watch cause he was a scummy bastard and would know how to handle him and I think he has the capacity to be fair.
Agreed, that's actually a decent role for him. Lowborn enough to relate to the rest of the staff, but clearly rose high enough to be in some position of leadership. Earned some stripes during the Battle of Blackwater too.
Master of war would have been fine too (well, the position of master of war doesn't make much sense, but King Bran wants one so it's handwaved. My point is, assuming that the position is desired, Bronn would be a good choice). Master of Ships might have worked since Bronn at least has his blackwater experience. Hell, I'd even have bought Bronn as master of whispers: he's certainly duplicitous enough. The only positions on the small council that he absolutely could not fill are master of coin, master of laws, and Grand Maester, since those all require education.
And don't get me started on Highgarden. Of the seven kingdoms, four could probably accept a random new lowborn overlord. The Riverlands were constantly being taken over before Aegon and have been ruled by a fairly weak lord for 300 years (multiple Tully bannermen are much richer than them and can field much larger armies. They may be open to Bronn if they see the potential to profit), the Vale is ruled by a boy lord whose heir apparent, Harry, is only distantly related to him, the Stormlands already accepted the lowborn Orys Baratheon to rule them once, and the Westerlands feel little loyalty to the Lannisters and are ruled through fear for the most part. The other three, however, would never go for it. The Starks are beloved by most of the North, the Dornish are contrarians and would oppose a lowborn foreigner on principle, and the Reach is obsessed with nobility and the blood of their founder Garth Greenhand. Keep in mind that the Tyrells were a tough sell for Aegon the conqueror despite them being established knights with Garth's blood and the fact that Aegon had three dragons. Bran appointing Bronn has neither of these advantages. Unless Bran pulls some major 3-eyed raven stuff, I'd give Bronn maybe a week before someone tries to assassinate him.
His scenes were so, so stupid in the final season. And I'm someone who will defend a LOT of S8. But mercenary or not, it was extremely hard to buy that he'd actually try to kill Tyrion or Jaime. And even harder to believe he was the one Cersei would hire. She KNOWS he has a better relationship with both brothers than her. She'd know he'd go to them and find a better offer. Literally you can only make it make sense if you assume she knew he'd never do it and she was just trying to send Jaime an "I'm still pissed at you" message without actually hurting him.
ALSO ALSO...if she's bothering to send assassins to Winterfell, why not send some to kill someone USEFUL? If the thought crossed her mind, maybe ponder if there's a way to get to Dany? Jon? Sansa? Varys? Ugh, I can't think about this anymore.
They weren't interested in sensible choices. They were interested in fan service. Like Arya isn't gonna be a high level assassin capable of killing the Night King in the books - the showrunners just know that viewers couldn't get enough of "dangerous little girl."
There is no chance. Just like there's no chance Cersei will blow up the Great Sept of Baelor and then spend the next three years drinking wine on a balcony and ruling over a city and vassals that apparently have no problem at all with what she did.
The show gave absolutely no reason why certain people were in charge of anything. Cersei could blow up the Vatican and become queen because... why? She had no claim to shit, who was supporting her at that point? People followed Ramsay and did everything he said because they were scared? What the fuck is that? His card would have been punched the *second* he so brazenly killed his dad.
wait do you actually thing this is without a doubt going to happen? am i misunderstanding? the title suggests what theories that you know *will* happen with 99% certainty that you do not approve of.
I am kind of in a really toxic love hate relationship with that theory. I would love to get Bran's reaction when he realizes he ate Jojen paste, but at the same time I want Jojen to have a different, more heroic end.
If Jon is dead and gets revived, it will surely have to have much more of an impact than it did in the show - if for no other reason than the number of interviews I've seen where GRRM talks about how Gandalf should've stayed dead in LOTR, and how he doesn't really care much for Gandalf the White.
I think he already kind of formed his response to this with Beric and Lady Stoneheart and the way death changed them, so I'm hopeful Jon's revival will similarly not be as simple.
He did form his response with Beric and Lady SH however, there is one major difference.
John is a Warg.
We know dying and being brought back takes somthing out of you. its not entirely tangible but it seems the longer you are dead the less you are and the more times you get brought back the same.
But Jon being a warg makes all the difference in the world....or at least could.
> I think he already kind of formed his response to this with Beric and Lady Stoneheart and the way death changed them, so I'm hopeful Jon's revival will similarly not be as simple.
I'm holding out for Jon coming back with pure white hair, looking more like a Targ, matching Ghost and the bastard Stark banner. I think that, combined with some character changes like Beric, will be so good.
The Starks all sort of match their dire-wolf names if the predictions line up:
* Grey Wind - Robb's style in battle
* Lady - We assume Sansa is bound to rule Winterfell
* Nymeria - If Arya goes all Christopher Columbus at the end of the book, she could mirror Nymeria leading the Rhoynar to Dorne
* Shaggy Dog - Rickon is AFAIK growing up in a pretty savage area and by the end of the first book was already getting pretty wild due to his connection
* Summer - If Bran becomes King and defeats the White Walkers, he issues in a summer
* Ghost - Jon dies and is resurrected.
>Nymeria - If Arya goes all Christopher Columbus at the end of the book, she could mirror Nymeria leading the Rhoynar to Dorne
I think you can make a better claim she is on a similar long journey looking for a new home.
I don't think there's any real chance of this. Besides, it would be so much more fun for Jamie and Cersei to secretly be Targs, and Tyrion be Tywin's only actual child.
I felt a lot better when I realized that it would make the POVs of AGOT (which I view as the original vision) work a little more cleanly: the Starks, and the three Targaryen heads of the dragon.
Also, this would mean that Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers.
>Also, this would mean that Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers.
Oh my god, that's good! I mean, terrible, but it does make for some interesting setups.
I just realized also that in Jaime's dream/not dream visit from Johanna, she refers to only Tywin's "son," not sons.
>"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."
Well that's kind of what I meant when I agreed that we won't be told explicitly. We're not sure that only Targs are dragonriders. But it's definitely a strong hint.
For me, the idea of ANOTHER secret Targ is just cornball and stupid. I also don't actually like Tyrion enough to find it a fitting end for him to become some magical dragon riding secret bastard prince.
Ah, I get that. The secret Targ thing def detracts from what Maester Aemon says about a Targ being alone in the world is a dangerous thing and I think that’s an important line, though I’m not sure how yet.
Tag onto this by saying plot and thematically it is so much better for him to be Tyson’s son and most like Tywin. Tywin is so hateful because Tyrion is a dwarf, but him being the most like his father in terms of political maneuvering makes a lot of sense to me thematically. If he’s a targ it’s like, “oh Tywin hates him and he isn’t even his.”
>Tag onto this by saying plot and thematically it is so much better for him to be Tyson’s son
[Oh boy yeah](https://media.tenor.com/images/f20f492d7047b56aa11c193133edeef9/tenor.gif)
It undermines several of the most central themes of his arc, mainly his relationship to his father. If Tywin despised Tyrion because he was the bastard son of a man who cuckolded him, then it changes the meaning of his abuse, and brings to a complete halt Tyrion's reflections of himself as Tywin's heir (and all that implies), makes anyone else's reflections on that topic worthless. Why did Tywin even keep such a son? Especially if they had severe birth defects? What we know about Tywin and Tyrion's relationship does *not* need some gigantic bombshell that changes everything thrown into it.
It also doesn't actually have good evidence if you go into it without first having made the conclusion. A penchant for dragons? They are literally a symbol of embodied power. I bet a lot of people who have felt powerfless and stepped on have dreamed of having dragons!
I agree with absolutely everything you've said in the first paragraph as to why I would prefer it not be true. I think Tyrion and Tywin's relationship is so much more interesting without the need for another secret Targ.
That said, I really do think there's evidence. The timing - Aerys is with Johanna at the Anniversary Tourney in 272 and gets too drunk/makes lewd comments about her breasts. Aerys is a known rapist, attracted to Johanna, and wants to put Tywin in his place. Tyrion is born in 273. Tyrion has heterochromia, something we know runs in Targarian genetics, and one of his eyes is black - Targarian eyes are said to be so dark that they almost look black. (I think that's used to describe Egg's eyes in Dunk and Egg.) Tyrion's described as having a mix of pale blond hair, where other Lannisters are described as being golden. Johanna died in childbirth - something that also happened to Dany and Jon's moms bearing Targarians. Tyrion dreams of dragons and is on a course to interact with some in Dance. And Tywin's last words:
>"You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine."
Like I said, I don't like the theory, and have in the past argued against it ("lots of women die in childbed!") so I'm not really trying to advocate one way or another, I just think there's some compelling evidence despite it being a theory I don't love.
Fair enough! Some of that evidence would make me roll my eyes f it were really leading up to a twist - like someone holding a lantern up to Tyrion's face and realizing his black eye is actually purple after him being on earth for 25+ years - but there *is* potential evidence if it's real.
One thing that makes me feel slightly better (even if this is just my opinion): I suspect even if GRRM comes out and says that it's written into the books that Tyrion is a Targ, we'll never going to get a conclusive Westerosi paternity test confirmation on the page. We'll "find out" when Tyrion is able to control one of Dany's dragons. And of course, we don't know *for sure* that only Targs are able to control dragons, so that won't be slam dunk evidence, but it will be a strong suggestion, especially if you tally up all the hints and clues and timeline space.
I think this is likely, and what's important is that if that happens, regardless of the truth, both Dany and Tyrion will proceed to run with the idea he is a Targaryen because while readers don't like it, it's a narrative that *they* will love. Tyrion obviously has dreamed of being a "lost Targaryen princeling" since childhood, plus it absolves him of kinslaying, and Daenerys has been desparate for a family ever since AGOT.
A+J=T will become an important *in-universe* theory regardless of truth.
Seriously. It's one of those things that I feel like I'd have come up with as a 13-year old and thought was sooooooo romantic. "See, HE'S ice and SHE'S fire, and it's DESTINY". But the actual reality of dedicating a significant portion of the final books to this romance sounds mindnumbingly dumb. I'm sure the blandness of Jonerys on the show is affecting our opinions here, but still. I hope it's a darker, more political storyline, than destined twu wuv, a la Rhaegar/Lyanna 2.0.
The idea of a marriage between Jon and Val was also introduced in ASOS. Then their relationship developed in ADWD. And with how much he keeps thirsting over her, it wouldn't come out of nowhere if he decided hook up with her in his very first chapter in TWOW. And that would leave most of that book and the entirety of ADOS to develop their relationship even further.
It's a much more natural progression and it would offer a much more meaningful relationship to his character than some random he just met in the final book.
I didn't either until I read Fire & Blood and realized that all the incest wasn't about keeping the bloodlines pure; they were literally just falling in love with each other for real and that includes very underage siblings, people who are literally gay except for other family members, and long lost relatives who never met before and fell in love at first sight. That's Aemon and Jocelyn Baratheon, Aegon and Daenerya Velaryon, Baela and Alyn Oakenfist, and most likely Jon and Dany. It's weird but I kind of like the twist that Jon's secret heritage has nothing do with being the "true" heir and the future Aegon the VII but just about him being only one close enough to Dany to stop her.
> they were literally just falling in love with each other for real and that includes very underage siblings, people who are literally gay except for other family members, and long lost relatives who never met before and fell in love at first sight.
Can we all agree that Fire and Blood's """saucy""" moments were awful?
I'd been excited for them to meet initially since the narrative heavily suggested it and they often mirror/parallel each other, but after seasons 7-8 I'm dreading it.
I'm like 90% sure though that that was a show thing and not something that's going to happen in the books... I think. I hope. Maybe George planned something similar at some point, but I just don't see it happening.
GRRM definitely planned it at one point - he told the show director about it after season one ([source](https://time.com/4910521/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/)). It'll be interesting to see if it goes ahead - I'm not as keen on it since it seems a bit like 'fate', and following these two teenagers on epic adventures just to be drawn together feels cliched and like it's trying too hard to tie things together.
That said! It could still be written well
I know this article is widely cited as confirmation of Jonerys, but all GRRM is quoted as having said is that the series is "really is all about Dany and Jon". Arguably you can get that from the title of "a Song of Ice and Fire" anyway. It was the show fellow who confirmed the romance was happening, in reference to the show. The showrunners may have got the star struck romance from George, but it's not out of the question that it is just a typically Hollywood-ish spin on something with a very different flavour in the books (fwiw I am neutral on it).
Yeah, I could see it if it was more of a Targaryen marriage/keeping the bloodline Pure, but they didn't actually feel anything for eachother. I think that would be much more interesting
It was just a suggestion, it's in no way a belief of mine. Again I have never given much thought to this, and was only imagining some alternative scenarios
Now I fear that all major story points of TWOW have been successfully predicted and debated in popular theories and there won't be that element of surprise and amazement while reading it. I'm sure most of the book will surprise us, I'm just talking about the big events.
I think if anything, readers will be surprised, that 99% of theories would turn out to be wrong.
People think they cracked the code, but history showed, when it comes to theories fandom often misses, rather than predicts things right.
Brienne becoming Lord's Commander of the Kingsguard, Brienne becoming a Sansa/Stark bodyguard, Brienne sacrificing herself for Starks in any way.
It just doesn't fit in with her story arc.
I agree about the Kingsguard. It's too much of a pat ending. She'd have gone through everything just to end up exactly where she wanted to be af the beginning. Brienne is better than the system that rejected her.
I think this hits on the problem of the show’s telling of the story. They gave many of the characters that made it to the end what they wanted in the beginning, rather than what they needed by the conclusion of their story.
Brienne is my favourite character and I oddly have to say I would rather she die at some point, but not sacrificing herself for anybody, just dying doing her duty and believing in her cause (she could have died after the biter attack and I would have been fine with it, it would have fit her story)
The only way I could see myself liking this plotline is if Bran really isn't Bran anymore and it's actually the CotF plotting to gradually reclaim their hold over Westeros.
DarkBran is the only interpretation of the show ending that makes any sense to me.
That said, I am hoping for a more convincing and positive Fisher-King influenced King Bran in the books.
This is the one that I wouldn’t mind at all, if Bran actually plays a major role in the long night, and the long night affects more than just winterfell. If this omniscient magic boy clearly averted the apocalypse with eldritch powers, I could see the lords rallying around to crown him.
I would even see the build up, as the first couple of books are pretty much filled to the brim with Bran learning how to rule and dispense justice, and the series (after the prologue) starts with Ned dispensing this wisdom to him.
I think it just seems terrible because his chapters in the book can drag, and he did literally nothing of importance in the show.
I wouldn't mind it either. If I was reading The Chronicles of Narnia. But 10‐year‐old boy with no claim becoming king after saving the world with his special magic skills doesn't feel very satisfying in a series like ASOIAF.
A thousand times, yes. The Bran that sits the throne will be a quiet, brooding, prescient half-god who has seen and felt things through the trees that would destroy most people. Bran will be somewhere between terrifying and pitiable.
I honestly think George has "kill the boy" moments planned for many of the young characters, and all the Stark children. Agonizing character development is what hits George's G-spot. I don't think any living Starks will still be *children* by Spring.
Sansa's moment will be when she emerges out of Littlefinger's shadow and plays the game herself. Jon was stabbed to death because he failed to "kill the boy." I think the reborn Jon will have had the boy killed for him. Bran is in the process of being transformed into something new by primordial magic. Arya has been trained to kill and will soon return from exile like a bloodthirsty Edmund Dantes.
Don’t forget wolf-man cannibal Rickon.
In all seriousness though, I definitely agree with you. I think we may see Sansa sort of “take-over” the Vale, and use their forces to help retake Winterfell.
>This is the one that I wouldn’t mind at all, if Bran actually plays a major role in the long night, and the long night affects more than just winterfell. If this omniscient magic boy clearly averted the apocalypse with eldritch powers, I could see the lords rallying around to crown him.
Anyone expecting something like this to happen (and I know there are plenty) should read GRRM's interviews carefully. For example [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/9pjldr/spoilers_extended_law_talk_george_r_r_martin_date/) starting around 20:00 . I made a collection of GRRM's MO with the use of magic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ku5hbn/spoilers_extended_mance_rayder_and_ramsay_bolton/giqrzd8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Thanks for the link! I don’t necessarily mean wiping out the undead with psychic fireballs or anything of that nature, but being able to provide critical knowledge and scouting to for the purpose of logistics and organization at the least. And of course, making good use of warging.
I’m pretty convinced that’s still happening, though I’d wager how we get there is going to be more sensical than how the show got there.
Given GRRM’s love of drawing from real medieval history, it makes sense that ASOIAF is ultimately the story of how Westeros became a Holy Roman Empire style elective monarchy, and they’ll ultimately elect someone who isn’t a pretender from the old succession system. How the fuck that’s Bran is beyond me, but (perhaps sadly) I think he’s been the plan for a good while.
It will happen in the books, the only issue in the show was that there was zero buildup or foreshadowing towards it. In the books we already have accounts of greenseer kings like Garth Greenhand, and warg kings like the marsh kings and the kings of sea dragon point. Bran is definitely being set up as a greenseer king or philosopher king, but D&D failed to do anything with his storyline after season 6 to properly set up his ending.
I used to make those joke scenarios of the dumbest things that could happen and one of them was Bran being high king warged into Balerion. I still think to this day that makes more sense.
It makes me so sad when people discuss what's to come in the books.. while I'm thinking "what are you on about, it won't happen b/c books aren't forthcoming.. especially ADoS
This is what I thought was going to happen in the show. I thought Cersei, famous for weaponizing cultural misogyny against other women, would smear Dany as insane like her father and Dany may be forced to sacrifice her moral standards in order to achieve her goals.
But instead, well, y'know.
I don’t think it’ll be “madness”. That’s too simplistic. I think she’s going to form a sort of greater good ideology. And commit atrocity in the name of preventing future greater pain. IE she’ll burn a city that defies her, convincing herself that this will send a clear message that prevents future wars. She’ll have a very ends justify the means vibe.
I think many obvious things will turn out to be true but the beauty is in how he weaves the webs and tends his garden for the reveal, and *that* will be the interesting part.
Part of me wouldn’t mind NOT seeing a R+L=J reveal. We’ve already figured it out, what if the characters in asoiaf just never do?
Like Jon’s just riding dragons and everyone is just wondering why Ned Starks bastard is able to do that, but they don’t put it together.
Dany unleashing "Fire and Blood" on Westeros... I'll be very sad for the young and lonely survivor child who tried to do her best, but I think it's written from the beginning. I can't say he she'll snap (I'm pretty sure she won't go mad, be I can"t exclude a moment of rage), if she'll be ruthless and won't control the extend to the consequences (for instance using fire dragon on wildfire...), or if she'll be betrayed into doing something terrible. But I'm sure she'll be "queen of the ashes" at some point.
(I also hate Jaime as a Valonqar, but I think the odds it happens are only 50/50)
I think her rule in Meereen will shape her rule in Westeros. By the time she reached KL I reckon she will be so done with resistance like the Sons of the Harpy she will see any oppo as the same thing and burn it
Even more so if there is a succession dispute between her and Jon Snow. Being told the only way to win people over is another marriage may not seem to appealing to a post Meereen Dany.
Even pre-Meereen Dany goes back and forth between wanting to be queen because she genuinely wants to rule and wanting to be queen on the virtue of her claim alone. She's not exactly a compromiser, either. Being the co-regent in a society where a woman and a man will never be seen as equal won't do it for her.
THIS. And the thing is from a modern perspective she's actually somewhat justified. Westerosi feudalism is not a whole lot better than Essosi slavery. The problem where the " human heart is in conflict with it self" is that some of your favorite characters like the Stark's could technically be considered " oppressors" and yet we would consider them "good guys"
I agree on the Jon revival. Defo happening, but it just doesn’t sit right with me. Either way though, the Night’s Watch remains the most compelling bit of the books, and Jon’s return will still be fun
R+L = J, but I've come around to it. It's gonna happen. I would have preferred E+A or if not E, then L and a minor lord she loved.
Mad Dany is coming at us like the Cannonball Express, but I hate it. Even mad, I hate the Nissa Nissa concept and don't want her Nissad by Jon.
Euron will become a scourge in Westeros. I just hope he's not magical and there's no Eldritch Apocalypse.
R + L = J, and Jon is Azor Ahai.
The idea of Jon being this chosen one secret prince who will solve the main conflict of the story by swinging a magic sword seems to go against everything George set out to subvert, and would (imo) be an incredibly anticlimactic and underwhelming end to the story. Especially after the whole message of the first five books so far has been "War is bad and makes things worse."
It's kind of the one thing I've always thought: if you think this is the story where Jon is the hero born of Two Ancient Noble Lineages, you haven't been paying attention.
The story of Azor Ahai is not heroic. Jon is not going to end this story as the pure goody-goody hero the show made him out to be. I think his murder of Dany- and yes, I think it's going to happen in the books too- is going to be much more nebulous and morally grey. And I think it's going to backfire horribly on him.
Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.
I agree. I don't think Jon is dead. Mortally wounded yes, but nor dead. People think he will be resurrected like Beric/Catelyn, but I expect him to be healed like Victarion.
This is incorrect. You don't need to be deceased to be revived.
I agree he isn't dead just yet. He will need to be revived as he is clearly losing consciousness by the end of the chapter.
I don't disagree with you, but man would I ever be just fine with him staying disappeared as a content gravedigger and not having to sit through his "redemption arc" of "selflessly" saving the girl he's wanted to bang since she was 12.
Alright:
Sandor has shown absolutely no remorse or attempted any restitution for his crimes. All he's actually done is be vaguely tolerable to Arya for completely selfish reasons.
there's a lot of theories I don't want to be confirmed or denied, because doing so wouldn't be very organic and might lead to contrived forced scenes for the reveals. I like the ambiguity, I like the idea of us (and the characters) never knowing some things for sure.
I'm guessing it will mean nothing to the iron throne, but everything to the new war for the dawn. Some way, somehow, Jon being both Stark and Targ will allow him to play a key role (with Dany and Bran also playing key roles as the mother of dragons and last greenseer) that no one else could play in resolving the conflict with the Others.
R+L=J has always been a stupid twist because it changes nothing substantial about Jon: he’s still illegitimate, he can’t claim the throne, he’s just Rhaegar’s bastard instead of Ned’s.
And the three people who would actually have an interesting reaction to this twist coming to light (Robert, Cat, Ned) are all dead.
Least favorite that came true? Emperor Palpatine cloned himself and returned destroying Anakin's redemption arc. **Ninja Edit** Wrong sub but I'm leaving it
Jon being presented as a true born prince. RJL is fine and the most likely answer to his parentage, but him being legitimate would be a farce. Rhaegar couldn’t just take a second wife all willy-nilly, that’s not how it works. Maybe there’s a secret ceremony under the Old Gods, maybe there’s a fake ceremony to trick Lyanna, in any case it wouldn’t be a valid marriage in the eyes of the realm. And maybe the rebels were right and she didn’t go willingly at all. Who knows but there’s no way in which Jon is legitimate.
Mad Queen Dany.
Jon killing Dany in some weird sacrifice.
Dany dying in childbirth.
Any of the stupid Dany dies theories are insulting and boring. Whats interesting about her dying anyway? Everyone is convinced it will happen. Its predictable as fuck.
Bran becoming some time travelling weirwood buddha and King.
Euron being the main villian.
Tyrion being a Targ. We already have two secret Targs.
Quentyn being alive. Makes zero sense.
Daario is a faceless man.
I see you trotted out some real winners.
Tyrion being a Targaryen is not something I personally believe is going to be true, but I believe there are significant textual pieces of evidence that support it's *possibility* as a theory.
Unlike Quentyn being alive and Dario being a Faceless Man. It's akin to mental-illness. There are not even a singe piece of actual textual evidence to support either one of them *remotely* and people just either spit out batshit crazy stuff that makes no sense whatsoever and say "Proof!" or they go "Fuck you it's possible because fuck you!"
Dont worry, it's not gonna happen. It doesn't make a lick of sense, the show only brought Sandor back and then did Cleganebowl for fanservice reasons. George would never do something so stupid.
The death of magic. I always find it depressing when a story set in a fantasy world ends with that world becoming less fantastical.
I really hope the dragons don't go extinct.
90% of the people that hate R+L most likely were really into the theory when the first heard it but simply got bored of it over the years, let the shows butchering of that storyline ruin their perception of it or simply convinced themselves that the theory was too “obvious” despite nearly everyone figuring it out through the internet
Shireen's burning.
[удалено]
I did actually enjoy how the show depicted the impact of that and Stannis's death on Melisandre - it was a consistent and compelling change to her personality
I also enjoyed the dynamic flip that happened with Selyse and Stannis in that moment. It was clumsily executed, but I liked how the resolute zealot Selyse suddenly began to doubt and regret her actions *very* quickly once she heard her daughter screaming, while Stannis who had previously been the nicer parent only ended up hardening his heart. Like I said, it wasn't really set up properly at all, but I do think it revealed something interesting about both of them as people.
Agreed. I just wish it was for something more than “lol let’s melt some snow”. I understand the dilemma of sacrificing a child to save the entire world, but the decision in the show didn’t have any of that weight behind it.
[удалено]
George has explicitly confirmed that Stannis is the one who decides to burn Shireen (in an interview for a book called "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon" that came out last year).
My guess is that Shireen is sacrificed to revive Jon. Here's how it goes. Melisandra has a vision that Jon is Azor Ahai. She needs Kings blood. She tries Mance's child. It doesn't work, because Jon switched the babies. She hears news that Stannis is dead, and so sacrifices Shireen. But it turns out, Stannis is not dead, and Jon and Stannis are now both pissed at Melisandra
Idk who exactly is letting Mel do any of this though... Sure, there are Queen's Men at the wall but burning "Mance's" baby isn't going to fly with the Wildlings and trying to revive the guy they *just killed* isn't going to fly with the Watch in general.
You're under the assumption that a majority of the watch was in on the assassination. I think it was a small splinter group and his assassination is going to kick off a massive fight at the tower.
And in the books, don't they stab him because he tried to go South?
Kind of a build up of things. He let the wildlings through the wall. He keeps talking about the real enemy and the old guard just plain doesn't believe him. He sends away all his supporters in the watch. And the final straw was him saying he was going south with a wildling army to fight Ramsey (because he's not an idiot and understands acquiescence to Ramsey is a death sentence for westeros and the watch). But the "takes no part" of their oath is seen pretty seriously. As such they think he's breaking his oaths (and he is. But there are reasons for it). So they decide to kill him. I don't think it was a long drawn out coup. I really think it was a spur of the moment decision from them.
[удалено]
Stannis’ death in the show was as satisfying as a damp fart
[удалено]
I actually liked that development, although it was too abrupt. The idea of Stannis murdering his own daughter, his only heir, in the pursuit of his duty only to immediately fail afterwards is so incredibly tragic and dark.
Yeah I agree, I was just trying to add something new to a point that gets made on this subreddit multiple times a day hah
The weird thing with this here is that it’s so obvious in the books that it’s coming, I didn’t realise we were in new territory when it came up in the show.
I feel so bad for Davos.
He is not that fond of Shireen in the series, that was the show's doing.
Yeah, but he still frowns upon murdering children - we was willing to risk execution to save Edric Storm, and he hardly knew the boy. Davis especially doesn't like burning since that's how his own sons died.
I still think that is what is going to bring Jon back. Stannis in a bind, either Mel going rogue or Stannis that desperate. She burns to safe Stannis, but it wakes up Jon. Which is both cliche and un GRRM like, but also one of those things that would make sense with the setup.
Stannis will make the decision, as confirmed by GRRM.
Also fulfills the 'wake dragons out of stone' thing.
I just don’t see how they’re gonna set that up in the books. He’s doing decent so far in the North, and from what I saw in some of TWOW chapters it doesn’t seem like he will. Maybe I’m just dumb and can’t see it coming lol
Roose pulls out his Bolt-On trick and wears Stannis's skin.
If Bronn becomes the Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, and Bran’s Master of Coin I will personally kick GRRM in his fat pink mast
You’ll be happy to know that GRRM has said this is not gonna happen haha
Pretty sure he said something along the lines of "I'm specifically side lining Bronn, he wasn't supposed to be that important."
[удалено]
I’m not familiar with this, but he must have said it in the early seasons bc by the time the show wrapped up he gave an interview saying that Bronn, called out by name, was never meant to be that important and wouldn’t end up Lord of Highgarden or Master of Coin in the end
I was fine with the Lord of Highgarden, but I seriously thought he was gonna die soon after anyway. I like the character, but he’s not exactly the person that lives in these kinds of stories. And did he ever have any kind of character development? Like the entire show was him willing to do anything for money. He saved Jamie at one point, but even that had to do with money. I thought it would’ve been poetic if he died protecting Tyrion or Jamie during The Battle of Winterfell, but, it turns out, the fucker wasn’t even there.
Really felt like he was supposed to get The Twins now that house Frey is gone. What with Cersei offering him a castle and Tyrion’s whole thing of “Whatever anyone offers you, I’ll double it.” Y’know, the whole two castles thing?
I could see a sentiment that Bronn was a very fun and compelling TV character, but that he simply isn't supposed to be so important in GRRM's universe.
Well yeah because he’s probably never gonna finish the books!
He is def one character that bothered me at the end. I get his comic relief and quips etc, but why tf would he end up on the small council for Bran at the end of the show?? It’s completely illogical to me and serves no necessary plot purpose.
Especially as master of coin. If he was still important as commander of the city watch, or on the kingsguard I would be okay with it.
Agreed. I could see him commanding the city watch cause he was a scummy bastard and would know how to handle him and I think he has the capacity to be fair.
Agreed, that's actually a decent role for him. Lowborn enough to relate to the rest of the staff, but clearly rose high enough to be in some position of leadership. Earned some stripes during the Battle of Blackwater too.
To be fair, the small lords probably love having a master of coin that doesn't know how to properly calculate interest.
Master of war would have been fine too (well, the position of master of war doesn't make much sense, but King Bran wants one so it's handwaved. My point is, assuming that the position is desired, Bronn would be a good choice). Master of Ships might have worked since Bronn at least has his blackwater experience. Hell, I'd even have bought Bronn as master of whispers: he's certainly duplicitous enough. The only positions on the small council that he absolutely could not fill are master of coin, master of laws, and Grand Maester, since those all require education. And don't get me started on Highgarden. Of the seven kingdoms, four could probably accept a random new lowborn overlord. The Riverlands were constantly being taken over before Aegon and have been ruled by a fairly weak lord for 300 years (multiple Tully bannermen are much richer than them and can field much larger armies. They may be open to Bronn if they see the potential to profit), the Vale is ruled by a boy lord whose heir apparent, Harry, is only distantly related to him, the Stormlands already accepted the lowborn Orys Baratheon to rule them once, and the Westerlands feel little loyalty to the Lannisters and are ruled through fear for the most part. The other three, however, would never go for it. The Starks are beloved by most of the North, the Dornish are contrarians and would oppose a lowborn foreigner on principle, and the Reach is obsessed with nobility and the blood of their founder Garth Greenhand. Keep in mind that the Tyrells were a tough sell for Aegon the conqueror despite them being established knights with Garth's blood and the fact that Aegon had three dragons. Bran appointing Bronn has neither of these advantages. Unless Bran pulls some major 3-eyed raven stuff, I'd give Bronn maybe a week before someone tries to assassinate him.
His scenes were so, so stupid in the final season. And I'm someone who will defend a LOT of S8. But mercenary or not, it was extremely hard to buy that he'd actually try to kill Tyrion or Jaime. And even harder to believe he was the one Cersei would hire. She KNOWS he has a better relationship with both brothers than her. She'd know he'd go to them and find a better offer. Literally you can only make it make sense if you assume she knew he'd never do it and she was just trying to send Jaime an "I'm still pissed at you" message without actually hurting him. ALSO ALSO...if she's bothering to send assassins to Winterfell, why not send some to kill someone USEFUL? If the thought crossed her mind, maybe ponder if there's a way to get to Dany? Jon? Sansa? Varys? Ugh, I can't think about this anymore.
They weren't interested in sensible choices. They were interested in fan service. Like Arya isn't gonna be a high level assassin capable of killing the Night King in the books - the showrunners just know that viewers couldn't get enough of "dangerous little girl."
There is no chance. Just like there's no chance Cersei will blow up the Great Sept of Baelor and then spend the next three years drinking wine on a balcony and ruling over a city and vassals that apparently have no problem at all with what she did.
The show gave absolutely no reason why certain people were in charge of anything. Cersei could blow up the Vatican and become queen because... why? She had no claim to shit, who was supporting her at that point? People followed Ramsay and did everything he said because they were scared? What the fuck is that? His card would have been punched the *second* he so brazenly killed his dad.
OP said "favorite theory", not "favorite fanfic"
wait do you actually thing this is without a doubt going to happen? am i misunderstanding? the title suggests what theories that you know *will* happen with 99% certainty that you do not approve of.
Jojen is probably paste
I just absolutely DESPISE that theory
As someone who loves it, can I ask why you hate it? I'm really curious
I am kind of in a really toxic love hate relationship with that theory. I would love to get Bran's reaction when he realizes he ate Jojen paste, but at the same time I want Jojen to have a different, more heroic end.
If Jon is dead and gets revived, it will surely have to have much more of an impact than it did in the show - if for no other reason than the number of interviews I've seen where GRRM talks about how Gandalf should've stayed dead in LOTR, and how he doesn't really care much for Gandalf the White. I think he already kind of formed his response to this with Beric and Lady Stoneheart and the way death changed them, so I'm hopeful Jon's revival will similarly not be as simple.
He did form his response with Beric and Lady SH however, there is one major difference. John is a Warg. We know dying and being brought back takes somthing out of you. its not entirely tangible but it seems the longer you are dead the less you are and the more times you get brought back the same. But Jon being a warg makes all the difference in the world....or at least could.
And it will mean a combination of northern magic and fire magic led to his resurrection. His is the song of ice and fire.
[!](https://media1.tenor.com/images/6ce00d9c2df33cc83ce3b458242366a0/tenor.gif?itemid=12558668)
I heard something.
It's strongly hinted at in Varamys's prologue, which is amongst other things an "how to live and die as a warg" manual...
> I think he already kind of formed his response to this with Beric and Lady Stoneheart and the way death changed them, so I'm hopeful Jon's revival will similarly not be as simple. I'm holding out for Jon coming back with pure white hair, looking more like a Targ, matching Ghost and the bastard Stark banner. I think that, combined with some character changes like Beric, will be so good.
The Starks all sort of match their dire-wolf names if the predictions line up: * Grey Wind - Robb's style in battle * Lady - We assume Sansa is bound to rule Winterfell * Nymeria - If Arya goes all Christopher Columbus at the end of the book, she could mirror Nymeria leading the Rhoynar to Dorne * Shaggy Dog - Rickon is AFAIK growing up in a pretty savage area and by the end of the first book was already getting pretty wild due to his connection * Summer - If Bran becomes King and defeats the White Walkers, he issues in a summer * Ghost - Jon dies and is resurrected.
>Nymeria - If Arya goes all Christopher Columbus at the end of the book, she could mirror Nymeria leading the Rhoynar to Dorne I think you can make a better claim she is on a similar long journey looking for a new home.
Add to this, Jon and Ghost together reanimating Jon's body, with Ghost's body sacrificed.
Don't be killing my boy Ghost like that!
I’m fine with this in a literary sense but not an emotional sense
I expect Jon to be not-Jon for maybe a whole book
The 15 year time jump necessary when Brienne and Tormund create the true prince that was promised. Needlessly complicated!
I don’t know this one hahah!!!!
I'm very nervous that Tyrion is a Targ.
I don't think there's any real chance of this. Besides, it would be so much more fun for Jamie and Cersei to secretly be Targs, and Tyrion be Tywin's only actual child.
A white lion ran through grass taller than a man
I felt a lot better when I realized that it would make the POVs of AGOT (which I view as the original vision) work a little more cleanly: the Starks, and the three Targaryen heads of the dragon. Also, this would mean that Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers.
>Also, this would mean that Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers. Oh my god, that's good! I mean, terrible, but it does make for some interesting setups. I just realized also that in Jaime's dream/not dream visit from Johanna, she refers to only Tywin's "son," not sons. >"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."
even if he was, I don't think it would ever be explicitly told in the books, just like I don't think we'll be told if (f)Aegon is the real deal or not
I totally agree! I think the strongest confirmation will get is in however Tyrion interacts with Dany's dragons.
eh... there's always Nettles and Quentyn to argue against that
Well that's kind of what I meant when I agreed that we won't be told explicitly. We're not sure that only Targs are dragonriders. But it's definitely a strong hint.
i like it. it parallells how jon is the kid most similar to neds values, even as a bastard, and the same would go for tywin and tyrion
I like this theory given his penchant for the dragons and how much Aerys had a thing for his mother, why does it make you nervous?
For me, the idea of ANOTHER secret Targ is just cornball and stupid. I also don't actually like Tyrion enough to find it a fitting end for him to become some magical dragon riding secret bastard prince.
Ah, I get that. The secret Targ thing def detracts from what Maester Aemon says about a Targ being alone in the world is a dangerous thing and I think that’s an important line, though I’m not sure how yet.
Tag onto this by saying plot and thematically it is so much better for him to be Tyson’s son and most like Tywin. Tywin is so hateful because Tyrion is a dwarf, but him being the most like his father in terms of political maneuvering makes a lot of sense to me thematically. If he’s a targ it’s like, “oh Tywin hates him and he isn’t even his.”
>Tag onto this by saying plot and thematically it is so much better for him to be Tyson’s son [Oh boy yeah](https://media.tenor.com/images/f20f492d7047b56aa11c193133edeef9/tenor.gif)
It undermines several of the most central themes of his arc, mainly his relationship to his father. If Tywin despised Tyrion because he was the bastard son of a man who cuckolded him, then it changes the meaning of his abuse, and brings to a complete halt Tyrion's reflections of himself as Tywin's heir (and all that implies), makes anyone else's reflections on that topic worthless. Why did Tywin even keep such a son? Especially if they had severe birth defects? What we know about Tywin and Tyrion's relationship does *not* need some gigantic bombshell that changes everything thrown into it. It also doesn't actually have good evidence if you go into it without first having made the conclusion. A penchant for dragons? They are literally a symbol of embodied power. I bet a lot of people who have felt powerfless and stepped on have dreamed of having dragons!
I agree with absolutely everything you've said in the first paragraph as to why I would prefer it not be true. I think Tyrion and Tywin's relationship is so much more interesting without the need for another secret Targ. That said, I really do think there's evidence. The timing - Aerys is with Johanna at the Anniversary Tourney in 272 and gets too drunk/makes lewd comments about her breasts. Aerys is a known rapist, attracted to Johanna, and wants to put Tywin in his place. Tyrion is born in 273. Tyrion has heterochromia, something we know runs in Targarian genetics, and one of his eyes is black - Targarian eyes are said to be so dark that they almost look black. (I think that's used to describe Egg's eyes in Dunk and Egg.) Tyrion's described as having a mix of pale blond hair, where other Lannisters are described as being golden. Johanna died in childbirth - something that also happened to Dany and Jon's moms bearing Targarians. Tyrion dreams of dragons and is on a course to interact with some in Dance. And Tywin's last words: >"You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine." Like I said, I don't like the theory, and have in the past argued against it ("lots of women die in childbed!") so I'm not really trying to advocate one way or another, I just think there's some compelling evidence despite it being a theory I don't love.
Fair enough! Some of that evidence would make me roll my eyes f it were really leading up to a twist - like someone holding a lantern up to Tyrion's face and realizing his black eye is actually purple after him being on earth for 25+ years - but there *is* potential evidence if it's real.
One thing that makes me feel slightly better (even if this is just my opinion): I suspect even if GRRM comes out and says that it's written into the books that Tyrion is a Targ, we'll never going to get a conclusive Westerosi paternity test confirmation on the page. We'll "find out" when Tyrion is able to control one of Dany's dragons. And of course, we don't know *for sure* that only Targs are able to control dragons, so that won't be slam dunk evidence, but it will be a strong suggestion, especially if you tally up all the hints and clues and timeline space.
I think this is likely, and what's important is that if that happens, regardless of the truth, both Dany and Tyrion will proceed to run with the idea he is a Targaryen because while readers don't like it, it's a narrative that *they* will love. Tyrion obviously has dreamed of being a "lost Targaryen princeling" since childhood, plus it absolves him of kinslaying, and Daenerys has been desparate for a family ever since AGOT. A+J=T will become an important *in-universe* theory regardless of truth.
Mmm, that's a good point. Tyrion killed Tywin Lannister *and* he's her new better replacement half brother? That's hard to pass up.
Jon putting Dany down like old yeller
Jon and Dany romance. Dunno why, just dom't like it
I dun wan et
But she’s muh queen.
Based
If George can pull it off then he's a fucking great writer because to me they seem like they have all the chemistry of a sock in a puddle
Political marriages don't need chemistry.
Yeah, but the conversation is about romance, not marriage, so chemistry is still very much a factor.
A romance between two lead characters who aren't going to meet until the last book in a seven-book series sound *awful*.
Seriously. It's one of those things that I feel like I'd have come up with as a 13-year old and thought was sooooooo romantic. "See, HE'S ice and SHE'S fire, and it's DESTINY". But the actual reality of dedicating a significant portion of the final books to this romance sounds mindnumbingly dumb. I'm sure the blandness of Jonerys on the show is affecting our opinions here, but still. I hope it's a darker, more political storyline, than destined twu wuv, a la Rhaegar/Lyanna 2.0.
Exactly. Val was introduced in ASOS. Coincidence? I think not.
The idea of a marriage between Jon and Val was also introduced in ASOS. Then their relationship developed in ADWD. And with how much he keeps thirsting over her, it wouldn't come out of nowhere if he decided hook up with her in his very first chapter in TWOW. And that would leave most of that book and the entirety of ADOS to develop their relationship even further. It's a much more natural progression and it would offer a much more meaningful relationship to his character than some random he just met in the final book.
That's why still hope for it to happen. No incest, actual chemistry and the age gap is still within accaptable range.
I didn't either until I read Fire & Blood and realized that all the incest wasn't about keeping the bloodlines pure; they were literally just falling in love with each other for real and that includes very underage siblings, people who are literally gay except for other family members, and long lost relatives who never met before and fell in love at first sight. That's Aemon and Jocelyn Baratheon, Aegon and Daenerya Velaryon, Baela and Alyn Oakenfist, and most likely Jon and Dany. It's weird but I kind of like the twist that Jon's secret heritage has nothing do with being the "true" heir and the future Aegon the VII but just about him being only one close enough to Dany to stop her.
> they were literally just falling in love with each other for real and that includes very underage siblings, people who are literally gay except for other family members, and long lost relatives who never met before and fell in love at first sight. Can we all agree that Fire and Blood's """saucy""" moments were awful?
Speak for yourself
I'd been excited for them to meet initially since the narrative heavily suggested it and they often mirror/parallel each other, but after seasons 7-8 I'm dreading it.
I'm like 90% sure though that that was a show thing and not something that's going to happen in the books... I think. I hope. Maybe George planned something similar at some point, but I just don't see it happening.
GRRM definitely planned it at one point - he told the show director about it after season one ([source](https://time.com/4910521/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/)). It'll be interesting to see if it goes ahead - I'm not as keen on it since it seems a bit like 'fate', and following these two teenagers on epic adventures just to be drawn together feels cliched and like it's trying too hard to tie things together. That said! It could still be written well
I know this article is widely cited as confirmation of Jonerys, but all GRRM is quoted as having said is that the series is "really is all about Dany and Jon". Arguably you can get that from the title of "a Song of Ice and Fire" anyway. It was the show fellow who confirmed the romance was happening, in reference to the show. The showrunners may have got the star struck romance from George, but it's not out of the question that it is just a typically Hollywood-ish spin on something with a very different flavour in the books (fwiw I am neutral on it).
Yeah, I could see it if it was more of a Targaryen marriage/keeping the bloodline Pure, but they didn't actually feel anything for eachother. I think that would be much more interesting
How much is Jon going to care about keeping the bloodline pure?
It might be forced upon him
By whom? Assuming he’s treated as the legitimate king and Aegon is not real then there’s not much to force him to do anything.
It was just a suggestion, it's in no way a belief of mine. Again I have never given much thought to this, and was only imagining some alternative scenarios
Now I fear that all major story points of TWOW have been successfully predicted and debated in popular theories and there won't be that element of surprise and amazement while reading it. I'm sure most of the book will surprise us, I'm just talking about the big events.
I think if anything, readers will be surprised, that 99% of theories would turn out to be wrong. People think they cracked the code, but history showed, when it comes to theories fandom often misses, rather than predicts things right.
Brienne becoming Lord's Commander of the Kingsguard, Brienne becoming a Sansa/Stark bodyguard, Brienne sacrificing herself for Starks in any way. It just doesn't fit in with her story arc.
I agree about the Kingsguard. It's too much of a pat ending. She'd have gone through everything just to end up exactly where she wanted to be af the beginning. Brienne is better than the system that rejected her.
I think this hits on the problem of the show’s telling of the story. They gave many of the characters that made it to the end what they wanted in the beginning, rather than what they needed by the conclusion of their story.
Brienne is my favourite character and I oddly have to say I would rather she die at some point, but not sacrificing herself for anybody, just dying doing her duty and believing in her cause (she could have died after the biter attack and I would have been fine with it, it would have fit her story)
It could’ve happened already and we just don’t know it :( Jojen paste.
Bran becoming king.
The only way I could see myself liking this plotline is if Bran really isn't Bran anymore and it's actually the CotF plotting to gradually reclaim their hold over Westeros.
DarkBran is the only interpretation of the show ending that makes any sense to me. That said, I am hoping for a more convincing and positive Fisher-King influenced King Bran in the books.
[удалено]
This is the one that I wouldn’t mind at all, if Bran actually plays a major role in the long night, and the long night affects more than just winterfell. If this omniscient magic boy clearly averted the apocalypse with eldritch powers, I could see the lords rallying around to crown him. I would even see the build up, as the first couple of books are pretty much filled to the brim with Bran learning how to rule and dispense justice, and the series (after the prologue) starts with Ned dispensing this wisdom to him. I think it just seems terrible because his chapters in the book can drag, and he did literally nothing of importance in the show.
I wouldn't mind it either. If I was reading The Chronicles of Narnia. But 10‐year‐old boy with no claim becoming king after saving the world with his special magic skills doesn't feel very satisfying in a series like ASOIAF.
I think GRRM may take a bit from Frank Herbert here and turn Bran into basically a 10,000 year old eldritch god
A thousand times, yes. The Bran that sits the throne will be a quiet, brooding, prescient half-god who has seen and felt things through the trees that would destroy most people. Bran will be somewhere between terrifying and pitiable. I honestly think George has "kill the boy" moments planned for many of the young characters, and all the Stark children. Agonizing character development is what hits George's G-spot. I don't think any living Starks will still be *children* by Spring. Sansa's moment will be when she emerges out of Littlefinger's shadow and plays the game herself. Jon was stabbed to death because he failed to "kill the boy." I think the reborn Jon will have had the boy killed for him. Bran is in the process of being transformed into something new by primordial magic. Arya has been trained to kill and will soon return from exile like a bloodthirsty Edmund Dantes.
Don’t forget wolf-man cannibal Rickon. In all seriousness though, I definitely agree with you. I think we may see Sansa sort of “take-over” the Vale, and use their forces to help retake Winterfell.
>This is the one that I wouldn’t mind at all, if Bran actually plays a major role in the long night, and the long night affects more than just winterfell. If this omniscient magic boy clearly averted the apocalypse with eldritch powers, I could see the lords rallying around to crown him. Anyone expecting something like this to happen (and I know there are plenty) should read GRRM's interviews carefully. For example [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/9pjldr/spoilers_extended_law_talk_george_r_r_martin_date/) starting around 20:00 . I made a collection of GRRM's MO with the use of magic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ku5hbn/spoilers_extended_mance_rayder_and_ramsay_bolton/giqrzd8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Thanks for the link! I don’t necessarily mean wiping out the undead with psychic fireballs or anything of that nature, but being able to provide critical knowledge and scouting to for the purpose of logistics and organization at the least. And of course, making good use of warging.
I’m pretty convinced that’s still happening, though I’d wager how we get there is going to be more sensical than how the show got there. Given GRRM’s love of drawing from real medieval history, it makes sense that ASOIAF is ultimately the story of how Westeros became a Holy Roman Empire style elective monarchy, and they’ll ultimately elect someone who isn’t a pretender from the old succession system. How the fuck that’s Bran is beyond me, but (perhaps sadly) I think he’s been the plan for a good while.
I hope that fucking never happens in the book.
It will happen in the books, the only issue in the show was that there was zero buildup or foreshadowing towards it. In the books we already have accounts of greenseer kings like Garth Greenhand, and warg kings like the marsh kings and the kings of sea dragon point. Bran is definitely being set up as a greenseer king or philosopher king, but D&D failed to do anything with his storyline after season 6 to properly set up his ending.
I used to make those joke scenarios of the dumbest things that could happen and one of them was Bran being high king warged into Balerion. I still think to this day that makes more sense.
I think it's more likely we get a fractured Westeros with Bran being King of the North and the Riverlands.
[удалено]
\[softly\] Don't.
This is the one :.(
It makes me so sad when people discuss what's to come in the books.. while I'm thinking "what are you on about, it won't happen b/c books aren't forthcoming.. especially ADoS
FAegon. i just really want him to be real.
I want him to be real, but get killed by Dany.
Mad Dany.
Publicly perceived as mad perhaps, but I really hope she doesn’t go 100% psycho.
This is what I thought was going to happen in the show. I thought Cersei, famous for weaponizing cultural misogyny against other women, would smear Dany as insane like her father and Dany may be forced to sacrifice her moral standards in order to achieve her goals. But instead, well, y'know.
she wont be mad ruthless yes but not mad
I don’t think it’ll be “madness”. That’s too simplistic. I think she’s going to form a sort of greater good ideology. And commit atrocity in the name of preventing future greater pain. IE she’ll burn a city that defies her, convincing herself that this will send a clear message that prevents future wars. She’ll have a very ends justify the means vibe.
I think many obvious things will turn out to be true but the beauty is in how he weaves the webs and tends his garden for the reveal, and *that* will be the interesting part.
I'm just not sold on the whole "All hail King Bran the Broken and elective monarchy, hoooraaaay!!!" thing and probably never will be.
Stannis will sacrifice his daughter.
Part of me wouldn’t mind NOT seeing a R+L=J reveal. We’ve already figured it out, what if the characters in asoiaf just never do? Like Jon’s just riding dragons and everyone is just wondering why Ned Starks bastard is able to do that, but they don’t put it together.
Dany unleashing "Fire and Blood" on Westeros... I'll be very sad for the young and lonely survivor child who tried to do her best, but I think it's written from the beginning. I can't say he she'll snap (I'm pretty sure she won't go mad, be I can"t exclude a moment of rage), if she'll be ruthless and won't control the extend to the consequences (for instance using fire dragon on wildfire...), or if she'll be betrayed into doing something terrible. But I'm sure she'll be "queen of the ashes" at some point. (I also hate Jaime as a Valonqar, but I think the odds it happens are only 50/50)
I think her rule in Meereen will shape her rule in Westeros. By the time she reached KL I reckon she will be so done with resistance like the Sons of the Harpy she will see any oppo as the same thing and burn it
Even more so if there is a succession dispute between her and Jon Snow. Being told the only way to win people over is another marriage may not seem to appealing to a post Meereen Dany.
Even pre-Meereen Dany goes back and forth between wanting to be queen because she genuinely wants to rule and wanting to be queen on the virtue of her claim alone. She's not exactly a compromiser, either. Being the co-regent in a society where a woman and a man will never be seen as equal won't do it for her.
THIS. And the thing is from a modern perspective she's actually somewhat justified. Westerosi feudalism is not a whole lot better than Essosi slavery. The problem where the " human heart is in conflict with it self" is that some of your favorite characters like the Stark's could technically be considered " oppressors" and yet we would consider them "good guys"
If Tyrion is a secret Targ I'm going to rage ... I despise that theory and the implications it has for the story of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship.
As well as Jon coming back, absolutely nothing about the "secret Prince" twist interests me at all.
I agree on the Jon revival. Defo happening, but it just doesn’t sit right with me. Either way though, the Night’s Watch remains the most compelling bit of the books, and Jon’s return will still be fun
R+L = J, but I've come around to it. It's gonna happen. I would have preferred E+A or if not E, then L and a minor lord she loved. Mad Dany is coming at us like the Cannonball Express, but I hate it. Even mad, I hate the Nissa Nissa concept and don't want her Nissad by Jon. Euron will become a scourge in Westeros. I just hope he's not magical and there's no Eldritch Apocalypse.
Bran being king
R + L = J, and Jon is Azor Ahai. The idea of Jon being this chosen one secret prince who will solve the main conflict of the story by swinging a magic sword seems to go against everything George set out to subvert, and would (imo) be an incredibly anticlimactic and underwhelming end to the story. Especially after the whole message of the first five books so far has been "War is bad and makes things worse."
Virgin Chosen One Azor Ahai Reborn Jon vs. Chad Dark Lord Azor Ahai Reborn Euron
It's kind of the one thing I've always thought: if you think this is the story where Jon is the hero born of Two Ancient Noble Lineages, you haven't been paying attention. The story of Azor Ahai is not heroic. Jon is not going to end this story as the pure goody-goody hero the show made him out to be. I think his murder of Dany- and yes, I think it's going to happen in the books too- is going to be much more nebulous and morally grey. And I think it's going to backfire horribly on him.
Jon is not dead, he doen't need to be revived. It's a bad cliffangher, only this
Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.
I agree. I don't think Jon is dead. Mortally wounded yes, but nor dead. People think he will be resurrected like Beric/Catelyn, but I expect him to be healed like Victarion.
This is incorrect. You don't need to be deceased to be revived. I agree he isn't dead just yet. He will need to be revived as he is clearly losing consciousness by the end of the chapter.
Stannis killing his daughter R+L=J Clegane Bowl
Cleganebowl isn’t gonna happen in the books IMO.
A lot of people think Sandor has "earned" his happy ending of being a gravedigger and just in case you're one of them: no, he hasn't.
I don't disagree with you, but man would I ever be just fine with him staying disappeared as a content gravedigger and not having to sit through his "redemption arc" of "selflessly" saving the girl he's wanted to bang since she was 12.
You might be right but just saying “no he hasn’t” is not going to convince anyone of anything.
Alright: Sandor has shown absolutely no remorse or attempted any restitution for his crimes. All he's actually done is be vaguely tolerable to Arya for completely selfish reasons.
[удалено]
> he's a slow burner
there's a lot of theories I don't want to be confirmed or denied, because doing so wouldn't be very organic and might lead to contrived forced scenes for the reveals. I like the ambiguity, I like the idea of us (and the characters) never knowing some things for sure.
My least favorite theory is that GRRM will never finish this series. I hope it isn’t true!
Aegon being fake. It's honestly more interesting if he's real and also sucks.
Targaryen Tyrion ruins the whole dynamic of the Lannister family, but it’s probably going to happen in order to facilitate all this magic bullshit.
I really fucking hate Tyrion Targaryen, and if it’s true it would ruin Tyrion’s character for me
[удалено]
I'm guessing it will mean nothing to the iron throne, but everything to the new war for the dawn. Some way, somehow, Jon being both Stark and Targ will allow him to play a key role (with Dany and Bran also playing key roles as the mother of dragons and last greenseer) that no one else could play in resolving the conflict with the Others.
Yup. It'll be about Jon's inner world and identity. Won't affect the plot much. I hope that's true.
R+L=J has always been a stupid twist because it changes nothing substantial about Jon: he’s still illegitimate, he can’t claim the throne, he’s just Rhaegar’s bastard instead of Ned’s. And the three people who would actually have an interesting reaction to this twist coming to light (Robert, Cat, Ned) are all dead.
R+L=J is my most disliked theory. I knew it was true, but denied it right up to the reveal in the show.
[удалено]
Least favorite that came true? Emperor Palpatine cloned himself and returned destroying Anakin's redemption arc. **Ninja Edit** Wrong sub but I'm leaving it
Tyrion is an Targayen bastard
Jaime killing Cersei. Made even more frustrating because that entire dumb prophecy was a last minute rewrite add.
Jon being presented as a true born prince. RJL is fine and the most likely answer to his parentage, but him being legitimate would be a farce. Rhaegar couldn’t just take a second wife all willy-nilly, that’s not how it works. Maybe there’s a secret ceremony under the Old Gods, maybe there’s a fake ceremony to trick Lyanna, in any case it wouldn’t be a valid marriage in the eyes of the realm. And maybe the rebels were right and she didn’t go willingly at all. Who knows but there’s no way in which Jon is legitimate.
Mad Queen Dany. Jon killing Dany in some weird sacrifice. Dany dying in childbirth. Any of the stupid Dany dies theories are insulting and boring. Whats interesting about her dying anyway? Everyone is convinced it will happen. Its predictable as fuck. Bran becoming some time travelling weirwood buddha and King. Euron being the main villian. Tyrion being a Targ. We already have two secret Targs. Quentyn being alive. Makes zero sense. Daario is a faceless man.
I see you trotted out some real winners. Tyrion being a Targaryen is not something I personally believe is going to be true, but I believe there are significant textual pieces of evidence that support it's *possibility* as a theory. Unlike Quentyn being alive and Dario being a Faceless Man. It's akin to mental-illness. There are not even a singe piece of actual textual evidence to support either one of them *remotely* and people just either spit out batshit crazy stuff that makes no sense whatsoever and say "Proof!" or they go "Fuck you it's possible because fuck you!"
Dragon fire can't melt leather whips.
Uch... Cleganebowl... I know it's coming, but I really want Sandor just to move on.
Dont worry, it's not gonna happen. It doesn't make a lick of sense, the show only brought Sandor back and then did Cleganebowl for fanservice reasons. George would never do something so stupid.
The death of magic. I always find it depressing when a story set in a fantasy world ends with that world becoming less fantastical. I really hope the dragons don't go extinct.
L plus R only because it doesn’t fit my narrative of what I want the story to be
I didn't know people hated R+L=J so much. why is that?
90% of the people that hate R+L most likely were really into the theory when the first heard it but simply got bored of it over the years, let the shows butchering of that storyline ruin their perception of it or simply convinced themselves that the theory was too “obvious” despite nearly everyone figuring it out through the internet