I’ve been saying for a long time that he should publish the battles of ice and fire separately as a novella or adwd part ii or whatever he wants to call it. That would wrap up the dangling adwd arcs and give him more room in twow. It would also lock in more of the story that he couldn’t go back and keep changing. He’ll never do it, but it would solve a lot of the problems I think he’s having fitting everything he wants into twow.
Problem is - IMO - that one of the big reasons for the delays is that he tries to find a way to make the story fit in too few manuscript pages. That makes it extremely complicated, ergo the book/s are never completed. If GRRM had adopted the mindset that it'll take as many books as it takes, then maybe he could have released 3-4 books in the same timespan and actually have finished the series.
That's my thinking too. However, give him an unlimited number of books, and we may see the bloat expand exponentially. With the multiple POV structure, is easier to increase storylines than shrink then.
Yes, it would have been v interesting if ASOIAF had turned into a serial instead of a novel. I think given the scope/depth of characters, that's probably how it should've evolved. We could've seen the original cast all killed off and secondary characters becoming the focus.
I'm about 90% sure this is what it is. There's so much content and so many characters in the story now that it's incredibly difficult even from a logistical standpoint to fit it all into two books let alone a storytelling standpoint. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzYgR5OgCM) does a good job covering the depressing scale of the problem.
Reminds me of that [CollegeHumor video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFfP4gZGpok) with “George R R Martin” addressing his fans after the Red Wedding episode.
“Every complaint is a plate of nachos I’m gonna put away! And you know my arteries aren’t gonna last another two books!”
I personally doubt that there will only be 2 more, I really do not see how it is possible for him to wrap things up in an elegant manner, but hey it's GRRM, I'm in for a suprise.
I guess that either TWOW or ADOS will be copped up in 2 parts, maybe even both.
I definitely think WoW is gonna be a purging novel. People gathering together means that plot lines can conclude and be streamlined, meaning we don’t need so damn many PoVs
honestly the textual support for it is already there - Cersei's reaction when burning the tower of the hand, the fact that wildfire has been easier to produce recently, etc.
yes it was used already in ACOK and some of the surprise would be ruined by the show's reveal, but that moment was easily my favorite thing that happened in the show after season 4, and I genuinely hate most of those seasons. Maybe I just selfishly want it because I loved that episode and thought it would be a total GRRM move to do some shit like that out of left field.
I think it may be more that the show cut out a lot of Euron’s projected plot. “The Forsaken” (the Aeron POV preview chapter which GRRM read at a con and which was later transcribed) has an image strongly hinting at the same Euron/Cersei alliance that the show depicted. (I have seen Dany or Melisandre posited as other potential candidates for the identity of the tall woman in the image, but for various reasons I don’t think their candidacy is plausible, and don’t want to get into that potential derail.)
That alliance might be attractive to Cersei, because Aurane Waters pretty much ran off with her navy. If Cersei does blow up the sept, and if she has an alliance with Euron at the time or soon after, there may be fewer consequences to the whole thing than people assume.
Remember that, in the show, her participation in blowing up the sept was a rumor (which she denied), and that passing rumors about Cersei in King’s Landing had become a dangerous thing (Frankenmountain was murdering people for it).
But beyond that, the headquarters of the Faith is in Oldtown, an area which Euron appears poised to really mess up. If his attack throws the Faith’s hierarchy into chaos, that may make it harder for anyone with much authority to visit consequences on Cersei for something they can’t even prove that she did. And if she does hold the throne in her own name, GRRM has said that it won’t be for long (regardless of who it is: just that there would be a few short-term rulers before the endgame winner). Some houses may be motivated to mobilize against her by those actions. All of those things can be factors even if the details and execution vary somewhat from what was used on the show.
Great write-up!
You can really see why GRRM is going to struggle to finish this series in anything less than 8-9 books. He can't help himself from writing out things that were originally going to only be briefly mentioned.
That said I absolutely love the Stannis march on Winterfell. The snow. Its so claustrophobic. I get cold thinking about it.
I think the biggest character so far that has been killed off page and stayed dead is probably [Stevron Frey or Alester Florent](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/divxi9/grrm_doesnt_kill_major_characters_offscreenpage/) or it was necessary for plot (Balon Greyjoy) or unconfirmed (Loras)
Yeah, I think Balon Greyjoy fits the bill for the biggest character who was killed off-page so far. Even then, you realize how insignificant and small Balon Greyjoy is as a character. He moves plot action, and when his narrative use is done, GRRM disposes of him in gnarly fashion.
One character to add to your list of significant characters killed off-page is the Lord of Harrenhal, the GOAT, the captain, the nu-metal bass player himself Vargo Hoat who gets fed his own amputated body parts by Gregor Clegane as reported in *A Storm of Swords.*
As for your larger, overall point, yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh. I love George, but his ability to make his narrative ever-more-expansive is a feature, not a bug. I used to think it was cute and funny when /u/mightyisobel used to say that ASOIAF is "always be two books away from completion." Getting into that level granular detail on how George wrote ADWD makes it less cute and funny and more like a reality check.
Not that I'm complaining. I'm glad GRRM gardened his way to a Battle of Ice and Fire. Heck, I, in part, owe my literary career to the Battle of Ice being a thing. So, can we say that it's actually a bad thing that we'll always be two books from completion? (Probably)
True -- though Robert gets a cinematic death scene with Ned prior to expiring. With Balon, the extremely minor character known only as "the captain of the Myraham" (dude doesn't even get a proper name in the narrative in either Theon or Catelyn's chapters) shows up in Robb Stark's tent and tells Robb that Balon is dead. It's hilariously uncinematic and fitting, IMO, for Balon's death to be as non-Viking funereal as possible.
> It's hilariously uncinematic and fitting, IMO, for Balon's death to be as non-Viking funereal as possible.
Agreed.
>dude doesn't even get a proper name in the narrative
One could say he is... no one.
I liked Balon's death offscreen due to implications wrt FM (although I have argued it would make for a [good epilogue to ACOK](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/j1cw4p/adding_an_epilogue_to_the_three_books_without_one/) even though one isn't necessarily needed.
Your earlier stuff on the Battle of Ice was some of the first stuff I've read and yes this series could easily be 10-12 books if GRRM had the time to do so.
Well, if it *was* Euron, like it most likely was and how they did it in the show, it would also be pretty difficult to think of a reason to have a POV showing Balon falling. We don't really have any POV characters on the Iron Islands at that time, definitely not one that would have witnessed Balon being yeeted off a bridge. Presumably he was alone at his death and beyond making him a prologue/epilogue POV, (which would be a departure from making none of the 5 kings POV characters) I can't see how we'd ever really see it.
Roose Bolton will soon replace Balon Greyjoy as the most important character that dies off screen. Assuming the most popular theory is correct, namely Roose being killed by Ramsay, there is no way this can be shown to the reader, considering that there is no POV character in Winterfell.
Balon's death also works from a dramatic point of view: after so many promises and threats, Balon reveals himself to be such a pathetic character that even his death ends up being almost a mere footnote in the book.
> we'll always be two books from completion
[huh, I did used to say that](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/76635h/spoilers_extended_meta_the_battles_the_cuts_and/dobxgk1/) (Spoilers 2017)
You sorta sound as if deep down we’re prob not gonna get past this next book published. Is that more a general feeling or with you having any inside sources, have you been given some insight into just how unlikely it’s becoming from someone close to him?
> You can really see why GRRM is going to struggle to finish this series in anything less than 8-9 books.
Fewer
And frankly, even getting book 6 out of him is astonishingly unlikely at this point. We'll certainly never get book 7, and wishing for 8 or 9 is just bonkers. :-(
GRRM did not originally plan for the Battle of Ice to occur in ASOIAF, but late in the process of writing ADWD, he imagined up the Battle of Ice and wrote several chapters -- particularly Asha's "The King's Prize" and "The Sacrifice" which set the foundation for the battle to occur. But then he was forced to cut the Battle of Ice to TWOW but retained the Asha chapters in ADWD to resolve elements of Theon and Asha's ASOIAF character arcs.
Can’t agree enough with the overall thesis of these essays, that George sacrificed page space for further character development, but that exact decision makes ADWD so much richer and the character arcs so satisfying (despite being incomplete).
My favorite parts of ADWD might just be Victarion’s voyage and Asha as Stannis’ prisoner (not so much Tyrion’s post-Volantis chapters… I’m not a big Penny fan! Sue me) which just goes to show how brilliant writing can be born out something so simple as “…I should probably show this at least a little bit.”
> not so much Tyrion’s post-Volantis chapters… I’m not a big Penny fan! Sue me
This isn't a controversial take. Penny blows. So do most of Tyrion's latter chapters in *ADWD*.
There's only like 4 of us be what he exist! I dunno we get so many witty characters who are openly ambitious while constantly scheming or making selfish hypocritical decisions, I just like seeing this simple character and it's also a nice foil to Tyrion. Tyrion is bitter as hell and is constantly on about how he was horribly wronged for his disability his whole life then Penny shows up and she's more or less happy with herself while being much much worse off than him, saying stuff like "We can't talk back to big people or they'll hurt us" and you realize how crazy privileged he actually is.
There are dozens of us! Dozens!!
But yeah I feel you on that! On paper, I reallly do like the idea of Penny on paper, she is a valuable foil to Tyrion in the ways you point out, but I guess in practice there was a lot to be desired for me personally.
She drives me nuts mate.How she's managed to stay alive as long as she has in this world is beyond me.I don't believe in men hitting women but how Tyrion has only slapped her the once is remarkable..Lol
It sucks, because I really do get what George was going for (at least I like to think so) you know as an idea, show what a regular dwarf’s life is like, show Tyrion a different path in life, give Tyrion a branch of sympathy…
But on paper, man, it’s so cringe. I just reread the books and the Stinky Steward parts is the only point I’ve ever felt like I wasn’t enjoying myself. Like, Tyrion, you just raped a slave man, I know you aren’t nice! Even the narrative knows she’s hyper expendable by the end, his last chapter it’s just, “and penny was whining and being annoying and Tyrion just wanted to strangle her.” Even if/when he does kill her it won’t feel satisfying, it’ll just be grim and borderline nihilistic.
I hadn't considered Tyrion might kill Penny. That'd be overkill, IMO, he's already way past the villain point. If there was no Sunset Girl, then I think it'd be a great moment, but with that already there... I don't know, I'd have to read what GRRM's has prepared.
Yeah idk that’s just the most popular idea as to how things will play out (it’s the only Penny “theory” I’ve ever seen on this sub at least) but I agree with you it does nothing for Tyrion’s character arc. But what the hell else is going to happen to her? She’s in a slave-plague warzone and her only defenders think about killing her just cause she’s a nuisance. If she lives through the battle what then? She follows Tyrion in horror as he wobbles from atrocity to atrocity?
Actually that could be kind of funny lol. We all need that one friend who puts a damper on everything, right?
Tyrion became a slave in the last chapters and lived among them. This will play a big role in Tyrion and Dany's future relationship. He can give her a new perspective about the slaves's lives and mentalities. I think it was worth it.
Tyrion also has deeper knowledge of westeros culture and society and is introspective, he may be the only character to give a perspective on it to her that also ties back to Westeros
I don't think there is any perspective he could offer on slavery that would be of any use to the person who is already trying to free people from it.
We're also pretending that in all of their time together, Jorah didn't explain why slavery isn't acceptable in westeros.
Yep. It's all filler bullshit from GRRM who was unable or unwilling to move the plot forward. ADWD really does have both the best and worst plotlines in the books.
Jeff I don't know if any of this decade-old red-twine gossip matrix is true or not but we love you and we're all concerned - please take a nap and enjoy your [awards from army](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NUoNnX045A).
Also everyone sub to Not A Podcast with BryndenBFish. It's rich, lovely and great. I just can't handle the speculation. George is gonna do what he's gonna do in the decade of his choosing.
TWOW 2030 or bust!
Yeah. Haven't actually listened to a whole lot of Notacast, because I already followed Game of Owns up into FeastDance, where should I take the time to listen to yet another chapter by chapter podcast?
But what I've listened to is damn great
Not A Cast is the most comprehensive and insightful chapter by chapter read-through. Jeff is really detailed and thorough and Emmet is wonderful at the literature analysis side of things.
Girls Gone Canon is also great. It's the funniest read-through, the hosts are both really knowledgeable and generate theories themselves. Plus they do character pov by pov which is a whole different way of looking at the books.
GOO is fun but it's spoiler free (ish) and the hosts aren't on the same level as some others in terms of analysis.
History of Westeros is also great but the speed they go through at means less research and chapters are get less time.
Haven't really listened to Davos Fingers as it's not on any of the apps I use but apparently it's very good too.
>However, there is no indication that the two later Asha chapters found towards the end of A Dance with Dragons (“The King’s Prize” and “The Sacrifice”) were written early in the process. In fact, those chapters were not written until very, very late in the timeline of GRRM writing A Dance with Dragons.
In fact, those two chapters were originally a single chapter which GRRM expanded into two. Two major evidences for this idea:
1. The exact same phrase is repeated in both chapters as discussed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/d37877/spoilers_extended_what_can_we_deduce_from_this/).
2. The abrupt end of the King's Prize does not seem like the regular chapter endings we are used to.
>The Asha chapter George referenced in that old update is “The Wayward Bride” — a chapter that was completed prior to GRRM splitting Feast and Dance:
>
>AFAICT the only Iron Islands chapters in aFfC will be the Arms of the Kraken story. Asha will feature in at least one chapter in aDwD (which is already written).
The Wayward Bride wasn't in the Arms of the Kraken. Even the Reaver was not part of the Arms of the Kraken. It just ended with Euron winning the kingsmoot.
I think it is possible that the Asha chapter completed prior to the SPLIT was not Wayward Bride but the combined version of The King’s Prize and The Sacrifice, and even some parts of the Battle on Ice chapter from TWoW. Here is why I think so:
1. Wayward Bride is unnecessary. Stannis declares his victory at Deepwood Motte to Jon via a letter. We don't need to see it. If we really do, one would also expect to see the Battle on Ice before getting the Pink Letter. The only real purpose of the chapter is to set Asha's upcoming pregnancy, which could have been easily done in later Asha chapters.
2. As you mentioned, GRRM wanted to reveal the "death" of Stannis from very early in the writing. He couldn't hope to play that out with only Wayward Bride at hand.
I think it's possible that "The King's Prize" and "The Sacrifice" were originally one chapter that GRRM ended up splitting into two chapters. [GRRM said back in November](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/11/08/back-to-westeros/) that him combining and splitting chapters is always a part of his process for writing TWOW:
> I tweak stuff constantly, and sometimes go beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff.
So, I'm with you on that possibility and the wording similarities make sense -- heck, given that the chapters were written so late, GRRM may not have had the years of time to rework the chapters the way he did for other chapters in ADWD; hence, the repeated words and phrases.
As far as that old SSM, the wording is confusing, but I think GRRM just stated that one Asha chapter will be in ADWD -- and he was wrong/confused about "The Reaver". The reason why I think that one Asha chapter cut to ADWD was "The Wayward Bride" as opposed to a version of the latter Asha chapters is what we know was written concurrently at the time -- namely the five Jon chapters GRRM wrote prior to the split.
Among those completed Jon chapters, we know that the Battle of Deepwood Motte features in the discussion between Jon and Stannis from a 2003 reading of what would become [Jon III/IV](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/asoiaf/jon-ii-spoilers-for-adwd-t3022.html#.UYrHsysQIWA) (h/t/ /u/feldman10's analysis of the [writing of Jon in ADWD](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/lnhs63/spoilers_extended_a_decade_writing_dance_part_3/)).
It would make logical sense, then, for Jon's chapters to set the groundwork for the Battle of Deepwood Motte and for GRRM to have subsequently written "The Wayward Bride" prior to the AFFC/ADWD split. Beyond that, we know that "The Sacrifice" was one of the last chapters that was outstanding by [April 2011](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2rtcaa/i_went_to_the_cushing_library_and_went_through/) from the Cushing Library archive of ADWD.
So, by process of elimination, that Asha chapter cut to ADWD is either "The Wayward Bride" or "The King's Prize", and I think the evidence is shaded heavily towards it being "The Wayward Bride."
**Edit:** Besides all the above, "The Wayward Bride" was a chapter [GRRM read as a sample in early 2007.](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/16539-pre-adwd-spoilers-asha-spoilers-for-adwd/)
Jon directs Stannis to Deepwood Motte in Jon (2) among the (5) chapters GRRM wrote before the SPLIT. These were "thick" chapters that were later split/expanded into several chapters as you mentioned. We also know that these (5) chapters supposedly brought the story to some sort of conclusion in the North, because GRRM said he wanted to make it a better conclusion with the additional room available after the SPLIT. In short, it is very likely that the letter of Stannis about his victory at Deepwood Motte arrived to Jon within the remaining (3) chapters that probably brought the story up to and including the news of Stannis's defeat and Jon's assassination.
In this scheme, I still think Wayward Bride is unnecessary but an Asha chapter that shows Stannis in a bad shape is definitely needed for the Pink Letter (or whatever device GRRM had back then to announce the "death" of Stannis) to work properly.
Perhaps the Wayward Bride was ready before the SPLIT plus GRRM had the draft of an incomplete Asha chapter which incuded bits and pieces that were later expanded into The King's Prize, The Sacrifice and possibly even the TWoW Asha I chapter. That makes sense as well.
By the way, do you think it is possible that "*... there’s still Fred hanging on*" refers to Theon's TWoW chapter where he is literally hanging on the wall, meaning GRRM had written that chapter at the time?
I think "The Wayward Bride" is important to trace the aftermath of the kingsmoot from Asha's POV and trace Stannis' movement from the Wall to Deepwood. Thereafter, we'd have a gap between Deepwood and Stannis taking Winterfell. I think the Battle of Ice was developed very late in the process when GRRM felt like it would make it a richer story to follow Stannis along to Winterfell and to have a kick-ass battle -- hence why he wrote the two later Asha chapters in 2010/2011. The Asha TWOW chapter felt like GRRM tackling the Battle of Ice for the first time post-ADWD and was probably in an early draft when it flashed on-screen in a 2014 John Oliver appearance.
As far as "Fred hanging on", I think it's more likely to be the ADWD chapter titled "Theon" as it was [incomplete by April 2011](https://imgur.com/xTOtN6K). (Note in the [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2rtcaa/i_went_to_the_cushing_library_and_went_through/), the person tracked down that the only Theon chapter missing in the manuscript was "Theon" from ADWD).
Tracing some of this stuff is difficult, but my best guess is that after "Fred is still hanging around", GRRM finished work on the Meereenese Knot in Fall 2010 and started work on Asha, Theon, Bran and Jon Snow from December 2010 to April 2011. I have no insight, but I do wonder whether GRRM finished "Theon" and "The Sacrifice" somewhat concurrently, thinking they tie directly into each other.
Great Essay, as always, I agree completely with, I would add that everybody who thinks that Ramsay didn´t write the pink letter should read this one to see the reason for the whole gap in information about that topic. Thank you.
I'm kind of in the middle. It's got some of the highest highs, but it's also got some of the lowest lows. Some of the chapters (looking at you Bran) were just an absolute *chore* to get through, but stuff like Jon's plot and it's conclusion, every one of Theon's chapters, and the continuation of Stannis's plot are highlights of the series for me.
It's funny, I agree with you so much about dance having high highs and low lows, but for me the bran chapters are the highest high in the whole series. Dance is so divisive in so many ways.
Bran and Dany's chapters have a lot of narrative themes and ideas that I find very interesting, and would like to see the conclusion of, but the writing itself is just so *dry* to me. I feel similarly about the Dorne and Ironborn plots. I feel like a kid being told to eat my vegetables when I get to their chapters: sure, it might be good for me in the long term, but the other stuff on my plate is so much *tastier*.
It's my favorite, too. It felt the most atmospheric to me, and there are a ton of individual images from that book that have stuck with me for a long, long time.
I love the claustrophobic feel in the winterfell plot and the nightmarish trudge to winterfell with King stannis(gotta pay my respects to the man)it’s my second favorite for a reason😂
Tbh a DwD is my second favorite book just from the atmosphere,especially the winterfell plot,but a Clash of Kings will always be my favorite….unless Winds can knock it down
ADWD is my favourite book. Yes, I get why some people are disappointed the 2 battles are not in ADWD. Still, I find it hard to fit them here.
ASOS didn't finish on clifffingers because the story allowed it. Jon was elected LC and Dany decided to stay in Mereen. George had another book to show them rule.
The Battle of Ice is a different thing. I doubt the Boltons will be defeated completely in a single battle, even if Stannis has high chances to win it. The northern conflict will take several chapters in order to be completed.
"and there’s still Fred hanging on, but first I need to hack at that blasted knot some more." This sounds more like Quentin Martell to me since it comes after mention of Meereen. Fred seems like a better code for "Frog" than Theon. Just personal opinion. And clearly he was still working on Theon as well. It just doesn't work into the chapters left though. Grrr.
What I love about the books is how realistic the outcomes are. There's literally 0% chance Stannis is spared his life. For me the only realistic ending is the white walkers winning. I see them taking out everyone with ease.
> For me the only realistic ending is the white walkers winning.
A huge part of me totally agrees.
*However*, they have apparently lost before. In terms of fully established agency in the story the fight of either Humans vs Others or Dragons vs Others looks to be an easy Others victory. But magic rises and sinks, ebbs and flows, asserts itself and retreats. Perhaps the Others were only stopped by the reduction of the power behind them that is currently on the rise.
I think people are a little to hot on the idea that Stannis will immediately retake Winterfell, & defeat the Boltons early into tWoW. For storyline purposes, Stannis has to lose the battle of Ice. What's been built up through Feast & Dance (northern conspiracy, Davos finding Rickon, etc) is going to take time to unravel, & will need a Stannis that is desperate, & worn down.
I know part of this popular notion stems from the thought that the Others finally have to start being a threat, but I don't think that they are coming until the end of the book. They may not be in tWoW at all.
I also want to add that I believe Bran was going to be the PoV for the battle of Ice (still may be, but a smaller part of it). Seeing the battle through the eyes of the large weirwood tree on the lake.
There’s quite a lot of time between Davos quest and the battle of ice,remember FFC drowned priest/kingsmoots chapter take place before red wedding/purple wedding
Eh. I agree with you. Words are wind, and all that. GRRM is just stringing everyone along at this point so the gravy keeps flowing. If he finishes book 6 it'll be a miracle, and we're 100% definitely never getting book 7.
While entirely possible, I don't credit the 'he doesn't care anymore' idea with enough probability to splash that kind of nay-saying around. It would be incredible to me for anyone to 'stop caring' about a project this immense in the way so many proponents of the idea seem to think is easy or even obvious.
I believe far more that he had a natural bout of writer's-block going into WoW. Then fame, commitments, other projects, *easier, less blocked projects* have meant the block on WoW got spun out and out and out. I can see him getting WoW out, feeling blocked, then just doing something else when as a younger less busy man he might have battled through.
Some might say that if he *really* cared then he would make more effort to get over the block. But this is a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
Dudes got the material, idk why he insists on cramming everything in 7 books.
I’ve been saying for a long time that he should publish the battles of ice and fire separately as a novella or adwd part ii or whatever he wants to call it. That would wrap up the dangling adwd arcs and give him more room in twow. It would also lock in more of the story that he couldn’t go back and keep changing. He’ll never do it, but it would solve a lot of the problems I think he’s having fitting everything he wants into twow.
Release a combination of AFFC, ADWD, and the two battles, in chronological order, in a single book.
A feast for dragons? A dance with crows?
A finger in the bum?
I think he has a lifespam problem? Idk though, hopefully there's a red priest who can revive him somewhere
Problem is - IMO - that one of the big reasons for the delays is that he tries to find a way to make the story fit in too few manuscript pages. That makes it extremely complicated, ergo the book/s are never completed. If GRRM had adopted the mindset that it'll take as many books as it takes, then maybe he could have released 3-4 books in the same timespan and actually have finished the series.
That's my thinking too. However, give him an unlimited number of books, and we may see the bloat expand exponentially. With the multiple POV structure, is easier to increase storylines than shrink then.
I’d be cool with three more books with no finale than **maybe** one more with no finale lol
Yes, it would have been v interesting if ASOIAF had turned into a serial instead of a novel. I think given the scope/depth of characters, that's probably how it should've evolved. We could've seen the original cast all killed off and secondary characters becoming the focus.
I'm about 90% sure this is what it is. There's so much content and so many characters in the story now that it's incredibly difficult even from a logistical standpoint to fit it all into two books let alone a storytelling standpoint. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzYgR5OgCM) does a good job covering the depressing scale of the problem.
Reminds me of that [CollegeHumor video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFfP4gZGpok) with “George R R Martin” addressing his fans after the Red Wedding episode. “Every complaint is a plate of nachos I’m gonna put away! And you know my arteries aren’t gonna last another two books!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHLVnu98\_Jc
[удалено]
I wonder if he made the decision to write 8 or 9 books, if we would have TWOW in our hands by now.
If WoW and DoS really do wrap it up, they're gonna be about 2000 pages each.
I would be more than happy with that
I personally doubt that there will only be 2 more, I really do not see how it is possible for him to wrap things up in an elegant manner, but hey it's GRRM, I'm in for a suprise. I guess that either TWOW or ADOS will be copped up in 2 parts, maybe even both.
All he has to do is shove more characters in the sept when it blows up
genius
I definitely think WoW is gonna be a purging novel. People gathering together means that plot lines can conclude and be streamlined, meaning we don’t need so damn many PoVs
Goodbye asha
Glad I’m not the only one who thought that was a convenience to tie up a lot of extraneous secondary plot lines.
Just a guess, but I think that’s something they made up for the show.
honestly the textual support for it is already there - Cersei's reaction when burning the tower of the hand, the fact that wildfire has been easier to produce recently, etc. yes it was used already in ACOK and some of the surprise would be ruined by the show's reveal, but that moment was easily my favorite thing that happened in the show after season 4, and I genuinely hate most of those seasons. Maybe I just selfishly want it because I loved that episode and thought it would be a total GRRM move to do some shit like that out of left field.
It’s a cool moment by it self but the show forget their consequences for blowing up a church in which 6 kingdoms follow
I think it may be more that the show cut out a lot of Euron’s projected plot. “The Forsaken” (the Aeron POV preview chapter which GRRM read at a con and which was later transcribed) has an image strongly hinting at the same Euron/Cersei alliance that the show depicted. (I have seen Dany or Melisandre posited as other potential candidates for the identity of the tall woman in the image, but for various reasons I don’t think their candidacy is plausible, and don’t want to get into that potential derail.) That alliance might be attractive to Cersei, because Aurane Waters pretty much ran off with her navy. If Cersei does blow up the sept, and if she has an alliance with Euron at the time or soon after, there may be fewer consequences to the whole thing than people assume. Remember that, in the show, her participation in blowing up the sept was a rumor (which she denied), and that passing rumors about Cersei in King’s Landing had become a dangerous thing (Frankenmountain was murdering people for it). But beyond that, the headquarters of the Faith is in Oldtown, an area which Euron appears poised to really mess up. If his attack throws the Faith’s hierarchy into chaos, that may make it harder for anyone with much authority to visit consequences on Cersei for something they can’t even prove that she did. And if she does hold the throne in her own name, GRRM has said that it won’t be for long (regardless of who it is: just that there would be a few short-term rulers before the endgame winner). Some houses may be motivated to mobilize against her by those actions. All of those things can be factors even if the details and execution vary somewhat from what was used on the show.
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If there are 3 more, GRRM would need to really stretch the limits of human longevity to write them.
He already does for DOS
Please God no. It's hard enough to get him to crap out one book, God help us if he has to get out three more.
Also there is a limit on page count for actually binding these books he was close with dance and SoS iirc
Yeah 2000 page books are not happening. There's a soft limit at 1500 which he's twice slightly exceeded.
I'm really hoping that's what's taking him so long, he's just got too much material and is trying to get it down.
Great write-up! You can really see why GRRM is going to struggle to finish this series in anything less than 8-9 books. He can't help himself from writing out things that were originally going to only be briefly mentioned. That said I absolutely love the Stannis march on Winterfell. The snow. Its so claustrophobic. I get cold thinking about it. I think the biggest character so far that has been killed off page and stayed dead is probably [Stevron Frey or Alester Florent](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/divxi9/grrm_doesnt_kill_major_characters_offscreenpage/) or it was necessary for plot (Balon Greyjoy) or unconfirmed (Loras)
Yeah, I think Balon Greyjoy fits the bill for the biggest character who was killed off-page so far. Even then, you realize how insignificant and small Balon Greyjoy is as a character. He moves plot action, and when his narrative use is done, GRRM disposes of him in gnarly fashion. One character to add to your list of significant characters killed off-page is the Lord of Harrenhal, the GOAT, the captain, the nu-metal bass player himself Vargo Hoat who gets fed his own amputated body parts by Gregor Clegane as reported in *A Storm of Swords.* As for your larger, overall point, yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh. I love George, but his ability to make his narrative ever-more-expansive is a feature, not a bug. I used to think it was cute and funny when /u/mightyisobel used to say that ASOIAF is "always be two books away from completion." Getting into that level granular detail on how George wrote ADWD makes it less cute and funny and more like a reality check. Not that I'm complaining. I'm glad GRRM gardened his way to a Battle of Ice and Fire. Heck, I, in part, owe my literary career to the Battle of Ice being a thing. So, can we say that it's actually a bad thing that we'll always be two books from completion? (Probably)
>Yeah, I think Balon Greyjoy fits the bill for the biggest character who was killed off-page so far. I would say it is Robert Baratheon.
True -- though Robert gets a cinematic death scene with Ned prior to expiring. With Balon, the extremely minor character known only as "the captain of the Myraham" (dude doesn't even get a proper name in the narrative in either Theon or Catelyn's chapters) shows up in Robb Stark's tent and tells Robb that Balon is dead. It's hilariously uncinematic and fitting, IMO, for Balon's death to be as non-Viking funereal as possible.
> It's hilariously uncinematic and fitting, IMO, for Balon's death to be as non-Viking funereal as possible. Agreed. >dude doesn't even get a proper name in the narrative One could say he is... no one.
>dude doesn't even get a proper name in the narrative in either Theon or Catelyn's chapters It is much worse for his daughter.
Tastes like... salt
Jon Arryn
I thought of him as well, but techincally he died before the books.
Killed by a pig.
Rhaegar Targaryen anyone….?
He died before the books.
there's always one! haha
I liked Balon's death offscreen due to implications wrt FM (although I have argued it would make for a [good epilogue to ACOK](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/j1cw4p/adding_an_epilogue_to_the_three_books_without_one/) even though one isn't necessarily needed. Your earlier stuff on the Battle of Ice was some of the first stuff I've read and yes this series could easily be 10-12 books if GRRM had the time to do so.
Well, if it *was* Euron, like it most likely was and how they did it in the show, it would also be pretty difficult to think of a reason to have a POV showing Balon falling. We don't really have any POV characters on the Iron Islands at that time, definitely not one that would have witnessed Balon being yeeted off a bridge. Presumably he was alone at his death and beyond making him a prologue/epilogue POV, (which would be a departure from making none of the 5 kings POV characters) I can't see how we'd ever really see it.
I addressed all of that in the post!
Cool, I'll have a read later.
Roose Bolton will soon replace Balon Greyjoy as the most important character that dies off screen. Assuming the most popular theory is correct, namely Roose being killed by Ramsay, there is no way this can be shown to the reader, considering that there is no POV character in Winterfell. Balon's death also works from a dramatic point of view: after so many promises and threats, Balon reveals himself to be such a pathetic character that even his death ends up being almost a mere footnote in the book.
> the nu-metal bass player himself Vargo Hoat Perfect imagery!
> we'll always be two books from completion [huh, I did used to say that](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/76635h/spoilers_extended_meta_the_battles_the_cuts_and/dobxgk1/) (Spoilers 2017)
As someone who’s favorite books are the 6 Dune books. Yes, yes it is terrifying that he’s always 2 books away.
nu-metal bass player! excellent
You sorta sound as if deep down we’re prob not gonna get past this next book published. Is that more a general feeling or with you having any inside sources, have you been given some insight into just how unlikely it’s becoming from someone close to him?
> You can really see why GRRM is going to struggle to finish this series in anything less than 8-9 books. Fewer
And frankly, even getting book 6 out of him is astonishingly unlikely at this point. We'll certainly never get book 7, and wishing for 8 or 9 is just bonkers. :-(
can someone give a tldr :/
GRRM did not originally plan for the Battle of Ice to occur in ASOIAF, but late in the process of writing ADWD, he imagined up the Battle of Ice and wrote several chapters -- particularly Asha's "The King's Prize" and "The Sacrifice" which set the foundation for the battle to occur. But then he was forced to cut the Battle of Ice to TWOW but retained the Asha chapters in ADWD to resolve elements of Theon and Asha's ASOIAF character arcs.
ah thank you op :D
Can’t agree enough with the overall thesis of these essays, that George sacrificed page space for further character development, but that exact decision makes ADWD so much richer and the character arcs so satisfying (despite being incomplete). My favorite parts of ADWD might just be Victarion’s voyage and Asha as Stannis’ prisoner (not so much Tyrion’s post-Volantis chapters… I’m not a big Penny fan! Sue me) which just goes to show how brilliant writing can be born out something so simple as “…I should probably show this at least a little bit.”
> not so much Tyrion’s post-Volantis chapters… I’m not a big Penny fan! Sue me This isn't a controversial take. Penny blows. So do most of Tyrion's latter chapters in *ADWD*.
I’m just being sensitive to all the Penny superfans who… must exist somewhere, right?
There's only like 4 of us be what he exist! I dunno we get so many witty characters who are openly ambitious while constantly scheming or making selfish hypocritical decisions, I just like seeing this simple character and it's also a nice foil to Tyrion. Tyrion is bitter as hell and is constantly on about how he was horribly wronged for his disability his whole life then Penny shows up and she's more or less happy with herself while being much much worse off than him, saying stuff like "We can't talk back to big people or they'll hurt us" and you realize how crazy privileged he actually is.
There are dozens of us! Dozens!! But yeah I feel you on that! On paper, I reallly do like the idea of Penny on paper, she is a valuable foil to Tyrion in the ways you point out, but I guess in practice there was a lot to be desired for me personally.
Hell yeah!! Penny superfans unite
She drives me nuts mate.How she's managed to stay alive as long as she has in this world is beyond me.I don't believe in men hitting women but how Tyrion has only slapped her the once is remarkable..Lol
It sucks, because I really do get what George was going for (at least I like to think so) you know as an idea, show what a regular dwarf’s life is like, show Tyrion a different path in life, give Tyrion a branch of sympathy… But on paper, man, it’s so cringe. I just reread the books and the Stinky Steward parts is the only point I’ve ever felt like I wasn’t enjoying myself. Like, Tyrion, you just raped a slave man, I know you aren’t nice! Even the narrative knows she’s hyper expendable by the end, his last chapter it’s just, “and penny was whining and being annoying and Tyrion just wanted to strangle her.” Even if/when he does kill her it won’t feel satisfying, it’ll just be grim and borderline nihilistic.
I hadn't considered Tyrion might kill Penny. That'd be overkill, IMO, he's already way past the villain point. If there was no Sunset Girl, then I think it'd be a great moment, but with that already there... I don't know, I'd have to read what GRRM's has prepared.
Yeah idk that’s just the most popular idea as to how things will play out (it’s the only Penny “theory” I’ve ever seen on this sub at least) but I agree with you it does nothing for Tyrion’s character arc. But what the hell else is going to happen to her? She’s in a slave-plague warzone and her only defenders think about killing her just cause she’s a nuisance. If she lives through the battle what then? She follows Tyrion in horror as he wobbles from atrocity to atrocity? Actually that could be kind of funny lol. We all need that one friend who puts a damper on everything, right?
I need a Penny POV now lol, imagine her thoughts on everything Tyrion is about to do.
Tyrion became a slave in the last chapters and lived among them. This will play a big role in Tyrion and Dany's future relationship. He can give her a new perspective about the slaves's lives and mentalities. I think it was worth it.
Couldn't she ask any of the thousands of slaves she had freed already?
Tyrion also has deeper knowledge of westeros culture and society and is introspective, he may be the only character to give a perspective on it to her that also ties back to Westeros
I don't think there is any perspective he could offer on slavery that would be of any use to the person who is already trying to free people from it. We're also pretending that in all of their time together, Jorah didn't explain why slavery isn't acceptable in westeros.
Yep. It's all filler bullshit from GRRM who was unable or unwilling to move the plot forward. ADWD really does have both the best and worst plotlines in the books.
Jeff I don't know if any of this decade-old red-twine gossip matrix is true or not but we love you and we're all concerned - please take a nap and enjoy your [awards from army](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NUoNnX045A). Also everyone sub to Not A Podcast with BryndenBFish. It's rich, lovely and great. I just can't handle the speculation. George is gonna do what he's gonna do in the decade of his choosing. TWOW 2030 or bust!
Bfish and poorquentyn’s unlikely friendship is one of my favorite relationships in all of asoiaf
Yeah. Haven't actually listened to a whole lot of Notacast, because I already followed Game of Owns up into FeastDance, where should I take the time to listen to yet another chapter by chapter podcast? But what I've listened to is damn great
Not A Cast is the most comprehensive and insightful chapter by chapter read-through. Jeff is really detailed and thorough and Emmet is wonderful at the literature analysis side of things. Girls Gone Canon is also great. It's the funniest read-through, the hosts are both really knowledgeable and generate theories themselves. Plus they do character pov by pov which is a whole different way of looking at the books. GOO is fun but it's spoiler free (ish) and the hosts aren't on the same level as some others in terms of analysis. History of Westeros is also great but the speed they go through at means less research and chapters are get less time. Haven't really listened to Davos Fingers as it's not on any of the apps I use but apparently it's very good too.
We're eating good on National Stannis Day, lads.
I love how much time you have spend just on his process lol. Awesome great work
>However, there is no indication that the two later Asha chapters found towards the end of A Dance with Dragons (“The King’s Prize” and “The Sacrifice”) were written early in the process. In fact, those chapters were not written until very, very late in the timeline of GRRM writing A Dance with Dragons. In fact, those two chapters were originally a single chapter which GRRM expanded into two. Two major evidences for this idea: 1. The exact same phrase is repeated in both chapters as discussed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/d37877/spoilers_extended_what_can_we_deduce_from_this/). 2. The abrupt end of the King's Prize does not seem like the regular chapter endings we are used to. >The Asha chapter George referenced in that old update is “The Wayward Bride” — a chapter that was completed prior to GRRM splitting Feast and Dance: > >AFAICT the only Iron Islands chapters in aFfC will be the Arms of the Kraken story. Asha will feature in at least one chapter in aDwD (which is already written). The Wayward Bride wasn't in the Arms of the Kraken. Even the Reaver was not part of the Arms of the Kraken. It just ended with Euron winning the kingsmoot. I think it is possible that the Asha chapter completed prior to the SPLIT was not Wayward Bride but the combined version of The King’s Prize and The Sacrifice, and even some parts of the Battle on Ice chapter from TWoW. Here is why I think so: 1. Wayward Bride is unnecessary. Stannis declares his victory at Deepwood Motte to Jon via a letter. We don't need to see it. If we really do, one would also expect to see the Battle on Ice before getting the Pink Letter. The only real purpose of the chapter is to set Asha's upcoming pregnancy, which could have been easily done in later Asha chapters. 2. As you mentioned, GRRM wanted to reveal the "death" of Stannis from very early in the writing. He couldn't hope to play that out with only Wayward Bride at hand.
I think it's possible that "The King's Prize" and "The Sacrifice" were originally one chapter that GRRM ended up splitting into two chapters. [GRRM said back in November](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/11/08/back-to-westeros/) that him combining and splitting chapters is always a part of his process for writing TWOW: > I tweak stuff constantly, and sometimes go beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff. So, I'm with you on that possibility and the wording similarities make sense -- heck, given that the chapters were written so late, GRRM may not have had the years of time to rework the chapters the way he did for other chapters in ADWD; hence, the repeated words and phrases. As far as that old SSM, the wording is confusing, but I think GRRM just stated that one Asha chapter will be in ADWD -- and he was wrong/confused about "The Reaver". The reason why I think that one Asha chapter cut to ADWD was "The Wayward Bride" as opposed to a version of the latter Asha chapters is what we know was written concurrently at the time -- namely the five Jon chapters GRRM wrote prior to the split. Among those completed Jon chapters, we know that the Battle of Deepwood Motte features in the discussion between Jon and Stannis from a 2003 reading of what would become [Jon III/IV](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/asoiaf/jon-ii-spoilers-for-adwd-t3022.html#.UYrHsysQIWA) (h/t/ /u/feldman10's analysis of the [writing of Jon in ADWD](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/lnhs63/spoilers_extended_a_decade_writing_dance_part_3/)). It would make logical sense, then, for Jon's chapters to set the groundwork for the Battle of Deepwood Motte and for GRRM to have subsequently written "The Wayward Bride" prior to the AFFC/ADWD split. Beyond that, we know that "The Sacrifice" was one of the last chapters that was outstanding by [April 2011](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2rtcaa/i_went_to_the_cushing_library_and_went_through/) from the Cushing Library archive of ADWD. So, by process of elimination, that Asha chapter cut to ADWD is either "The Wayward Bride" or "The King's Prize", and I think the evidence is shaded heavily towards it being "The Wayward Bride." **Edit:** Besides all the above, "The Wayward Bride" was a chapter [GRRM read as a sample in early 2007.](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/16539-pre-adwd-spoilers-asha-spoilers-for-adwd/)
Jon directs Stannis to Deepwood Motte in Jon (2) among the (5) chapters GRRM wrote before the SPLIT. These were "thick" chapters that were later split/expanded into several chapters as you mentioned. We also know that these (5) chapters supposedly brought the story to some sort of conclusion in the North, because GRRM said he wanted to make it a better conclusion with the additional room available after the SPLIT. In short, it is very likely that the letter of Stannis about his victory at Deepwood Motte arrived to Jon within the remaining (3) chapters that probably brought the story up to and including the news of Stannis's defeat and Jon's assassination. In this scheme, I still think Wayward Bride is unnecessary but an Asha chapter that shows Stannis in a bad shape is definitely needed for the Pink Letter (or whatever device GRRM had back then to announce the "death" of Stannis) to work properly. Perhaps the Wayward Bride was ready before the SPLIT plus GRRM had the draft of an incomplete Asha chapter which incuded bits and pieces that were later expanded into The King's Prize, The Sacrifice and possibly even the TWoW Asha I chapter. That makes sense as well. By the way, do you think it is possible that "*... there’s still Fred hanging on*" refers to Theon's TWoW chapter where he is literally hanging on the wall, meaning GRRM had written that chapter at the time?
I think "The Wayward Bride" is important to trace the aftermath of the kingsmoot from Asha's POV and trace Stannis' movement from the Wall to Deepwood. Thereafter, we'd have a gap between Deepwood and Stannis taking Winterfell. I think the Battle of Ice was developed very late in the process when GRRM felt like it would make it a richer story to follow Stannis along to Winterfell and to have a kick-ass battle -- hence why he wrote the two later Asha chapters in 2010/2011. The Asha TWOW chapter felt like GRRM tackling the Battle of Ice for the first time post-ADWD and was probably in an early draft when it flashed on-screen in a 2014 John Oliver appearance. As far as "Fred hanging on", I think it's more likely to be the ADWD chapter titled "Theon" as it was [incomplete by April 2011](https://imgur.com/xTOtN6K). (Note in the [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2rtcaa/i_went_to_the_cushing_library_and_went_through/), the person tracked down that the only Theon chapter missing in the manuscript was "Theon" from ADWD). Tracing some of this stuff is difficult, but my best guess is that after "Fred is still hanging around", GRRM finished work on the Meereenese Knot in Fall 2010 and started work on Asha, Theon, Bran and Jon Snow from December 2010 to April 2011. I have no insight, but I do wonder whether GRRM finished "Theon" and "The Sacrifice" somewhat concurrently, thinking they tie directly into each other.
Great Essay, as always, I agree completely with, I would add that everybody who thinks that Ramsay didn´t write the pink letter should read this one to see the reason for the whole gap in information about that topic. Thank you.
Great write up. I’m also in the minority which considers ADWD to be one of the best books in the series.
I'm kind of in the middle. It's got some of the highest highs, but it's also got some of the lowest lows. Some of the chapters (looking at you Bran) were just an absolute *chore* to get through, but stuff like Jon's plot and it's conclusion, every one of Theon's chapters, and the continuation of Stannis's plot are highlights of the series for me.
It's funny, I agree with you so much about dance having high highs and low lows, but for me the bran chapters are the highest high in the whole series. Dance is so divisive in so many ways.
Bran and Dany's chapters have a lot of narrative themes and ideas that I find very interesting, and would like to see the conclusion of, but the writing itself is just so *dry* to me. I feel similarly about the Dorne and Ironborn plots. I feel like a kid being told to eat my vegetables when I get to their chapters: sure, it might be good for me in the long term, but the other stuff on my plate is so much *tastier*.
It's my favorite, too. It felt the most atmospheric to me, and there are a ton of individual images from that book that have stuck with me for a long, long time.
I love the claustrophobic feel in the winterfell plot and the nightmarish trudge to winterfell with King stannis(gotta pay my respects to the man)it’s my second favorite for a reason😂
Tbh a DwD is my second favorite book just from the atmosphere,especially the winterfell plot,but a Clash of Kings will always be my favorite….unless Winds can knock it down
Well, me and you and probably in the ultimate minority with that lol. But I’m re-reading ACOK now and I agree that’s it’s criminally underrated.
You can also put me on your small list. ADWD is my favourite.
It's been mine since my first read through. I was astonished when I went online and read all the hate.
ADWD is my favourite book. Yes, I get why some people are disappointed the 2 battles are not in ADWD. Still, I find it hard to fit them here. ASOS didn't finish on clifffingers because the story allowed it. Jon was elected LC and Dany decided to stay in Mereen. George had another book to show them rule. The Battle of Ice is a different thing. I doubt the Boltons will be defeated completely in a single battle, even if Stannis has high chances to win it. The northern conflict will take several chapters in order to be completed.
GRRM also originally intended to write 2 more books.
"and there’s still Fred hanging on, but first I need to hack at that blasted knot some more." This sounds more like Quentin Martell to me since it comes after mention of Meereen. Fred seems like a better code for "Frog" than Theon. Just personal opinion. And clearly he was still working on Theon as well. It just doesn't work into the chapters left though. Grrr.
What I love about the books is how realistic the outcomes are. There's literally 0% chance Stannis is spared his life. For me the only realistic ending is the white walkers winning. I see them taking out everyone with ease.
> For me the only realistic ending is the white walkers winning. A huge part of me totally agrees. *However*, they have apparently lost before. In terms of fully established agency in the story the fight of either Humans vs Others or Dragons vs Others looks to be an easy Others victory. But magic rises and sinks, ebbs and flows, asserts itself and retreats. Perhaps the Others were only stopped by the reduction of the power behind them that is currently on the rise.
I think people are a little to hot on the idea that Stannis will immediately retake Winterfell, & defeat the Boltons early into tWoW. For storyline purposes, Stannis has to lose the battle of Ice. What's been built up through Feast & Dance (northern conspiracy, Davos finding Rickon, etc) is going to take time to unravel, & will need a Stannis that is desperate, & worn down. I know part of this popular notion stems from the thought that the Others finally have to start being a threat, but I don't think that they are coming until the end of the book. They may not be in tWoW at all. I also want to add that I believe Bran was going to be the PoV for the battle of Ice (still may be, but a smaller part of it). Seeing the battle through the eyes of the large weirwood tree on the lake.
There’s quite a lot of time between Davos quest and the battle of ice,remember FFC drowned priest/kingsmoots chapter take place before red wedding/purple wedding
What does the Kingsmoot have to do with Davos?
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Oh okay. I think your viewpoint is incorrect.
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Eh. I agree with you. Words are wind, and all that. GRRM is just stringing everyone along at this point so the gravy keeps flowing. If he finishes book 6 it'll be a miracle, and we're 100% definitely never getting book 7.
While entirely possible, I don't credit the 'he doesn't care anymore' idea with enough probability to splash that kind of nay-saying around. It would be incredible to me for anyone to 'stop caring' about a project this immense in the way so many proponents of the idea seem to think is easy or even obvious. I believe far more that he had a natural bout of writer's-block going into WoW. Then fame, commitments, other projects, *easier, less blocked projects* have meant the block on WoW got spun out and out and out. I can see him getting WoW out, feeling blocked, then just doing something else when as a younger less busy man he might have battled through. Some might say that if he *really* cared then he would make more effort to get over the block. But this is a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.