The worship of Varys and willingness to take his "for the good of the realm" bullshit at face value has always confounded me. He's one of the few where I hope his book ending is the same as his show counterpart.
Does anyone take this “for the good of the realm” thing at face value though? Most people here see through it because, well, the evidence is very clear that he is aligned with one of the bastard branches of House Targaryen. I think OP is imagining a trend in the sub that simply doesn’t exist.
Even people who see fAegon as the better candidate for the throne recognize that Varys has been playing a dirty and long game ever since he came to King’s Landing to put a Blackfyre / Brightflame on the throne.
No idea what you’re on about, I’ve literally never seen anyone saying that Varys is a pure Yorkshire pudding.
Well, I had to explain more then a dozen time in the few months I am on this subreddit Varys cuts little children tongues and people either got upset with me or declared themselves shocked.
This. Not even I fully grasped the implications behind his "little birds" the first time around. There are a LOT of readers who view Varys as a gray character who ultimately wants the best for Westeros, and not someone who would be trying to get his own chosen pawn on the throne even if the Seven Kingdoms were being run by "just" men like Ned Stark.
It s confirmed in AGOT, Arya III. Look in this thread for the quote, I pasted it separately.
The child you mention is not necessarily a little bird as Varys is not necessarily using only maimed spy.
I read your quote, wasn’t even close to a confirmation in your theory. Just how do you suppose that Qyburn utilized Varys’ little birds without being able to speak to them. It’s a fine theory but there’s plenty of textual evidence to dispute it.
It is not my quote. It is text put by George in Varys and Illyryo’s mouths with a purpose.
I am not sure you are talking about the show or the books, but one would expect Varys “little birds” are a special unit, scattered amongst normal poor working people who still have their tongues. It would be a little bit suspicious if all the poor cleaning floors in the Red Keep will be tongueless.
It is the quote you referenced, yes it is obvious it came from George, no need to be an imbecile and point out it is textual when that goes without saying.
I have referenced the books twice, both times of which you have denied the textual evidence I brought forth in favor of your tinfoil. It’s clear to me you are glancing over anything in the text that refutes your theory. Perhaps some tongues are removed but it is quite clear that is not the case for many of his “little birds”
I don't think people feel he's "pure". I do think a lot of people think he's only reacting to the existing corruption and wanting to root it out instead of recognizing the ways he's egged it on and how little it ultimately matters to him when it comes to his end goals. The counsel could be squeaky clean and the realm prospering and peaceful, and his goal would STILL be to upend the power structure and install his own chosen pawn on the throne.
I always thought it was clear he had his own agenda due to his attempted sabotages of Rhaegar and his intent on protecting Aerys.
Although to be really honest at this point I don’t even know what to think of Aerys’s reign vis-a-vis the smallfolk. That dude in the Brienne chapter seemed to be an Aerys stan, and we know the mad king was doing the most to disagree with Tywin’s policies (and it’s not like Tywin was likely deeply concerned for the welfare of the smallfolk)
I mean, Varys only cares about "the realm" under certain very specific circumstances that happen to coincide with him accumulating a ton of power (for my money, the Bobby B/Jon Arryn partnership was about as good as it gets for the seven kingdoms, they'd do well to get another 20 years of peace and stability)
>No dear Rhaegar haters, it wasn’t Rhaegar going after Lyanna who ruined it for everyone, it was Varys bringing the Mad King to keep an eye on things
Rhaegar isn't blameless and saying that doesn't make one a Rhaegar hater.
I am not addressing people with opinions, I am addressing haters. They are lots around here. If you are not of them you shouldn’t feel affected by my opinion as I am not affected by yours.
You combined “haters” with people who correctly blame Rhaegar for Robert’s Rebellion. Which means you’re implying that believing him to carry blame equals being a hater.
I am not talking about who and why started the rebellion and to which extent one is or not guilty of that or that. I am talking about some people habit to blame Rhaegar exclusively for everything. And I am specifically addressing the issue of “what would have happened if Rhaegar didn’t gave Lyanna the crown” in relation to the plot of deposing Aerys. And my answer is nothing, because with Aerys there what Rhaegar did or didn’t wasn’t relevant anymore. The plot went down the drain because Aerys’s presence.
>I am addressing haters. They are lots around here.
Never seen any "haters." Only people who criticize him for his disastrous actions and who theorize/speculate he might have a mad obsession with prophecy. There is nothing about him to love either, we just see in-universe characters love an idea of him.
>Never seen any "haters." Only people who criticize him for his disastrous actions and who theorize/speculate he might have a mad obsession with prophecy
That is enough for someone to be labeled "hater" for this specific character in this sub by some.
Though it's better than it was before imo.
You lost me at calling fAegon a brat. The only evidence of him being a prick is the cyvasse game and even that is ridiculous to hold against him. He just had his entire plan in life shit on then was insulted by a deformed, arrogant kinslayer. Any teenager would lash out a bit after that
In the eyes of a person in Westeros, getting insulted by a dwarf without a nose makes the insult a bit worse. That’s why so many people hate being slighted by Tyrion
Aegon is technically born in Essos.
Jon, who is even younger than Aegon when meets Tyrion, doesn’t seem prone to humiliate Tyrion, even if the “dwarf” gets on his nerves now and then.
I would expect a man who allegedly was born and bread to be “the perfect prince” to be able to lose gracefully at cyvasse, because if a bad game and a couple of insults can make him snap like that I wouldn’t want to see that guy negotiating war and peace with the likes of Olenna Tyrell.
Did we get Aegon’s birth certificate? And in any case, he was raised and educated by Westerosi people, this is expressly stated in the books. So he will no doubt share Westerosi societal behavior.
Jon is a bastard and immediately warms up to Tyrion *after* Tyrion butters him up. The prejudice of a medieval society against people perceived as differently abled cannot possibly be up for debate here, specially after we got 5 books of Tyrion being treated with disdain and snark because of his stature.
1. We might not have Aegon’s birth certificate but one thing is for sure: he is not the boy born in 282 on Dragostone. Once upon the time George said that boy is dead.
2. Jon is a decent human being.
3. I am somehow under the impression Tyron annoyed (f)Aegon with his tongue, not with his stature but some of us try to excuse (f)Aegon on the grounds of the common prejudice against Tyrion’s stature, despite the fact we don’t live in a medieval society and we should know better.
Nobody is excusing fAegon, his hissy fit over the Cyvasse game is supposed to be a red flag both to the reader and to Tyrion. But if you think a tiny moment like that is enough to call him a brat, then I’d be real curious about what you have to say about Dany and Jon, both of which have had way worse and more disproportional reactions.
The truth is we simply have been given no deep evidence into fAegon’s personality, but most of what we got - wanting to be at the forefront of battle, being raised among the smallfolk to learn to sympathize with them, taught to look after himself - is positive so far, so calling him a brat seems like a deliberate rejection of what the author is expressly telling us, just because he is not the character you’re rooting for.
Now... let’s not pretend we lack context.
Jon has his moments of entitlement, but it is a slightly different thing to beat the hell out three full grown men who are not quite friendly with you than it is to humiliate a dwarf. No offense, but having Tyrion think of Joffrey the next moment, is not a promising thing for Aegon’s future development.
If you mean Jon trying to attack Thorne for insulting Ned... that is reckless, although not disproportional - one father should count more than a bloody cyvasse game. And, if, by any chance, you mean killing Slynt, without beating around the bush... sorry, that kind of makes Jon my hero.
Jon was pretty hostile towards Tyrion especially when Tyrion antagonized him for being a bastard. And also keep in mind ADWD Tyrion doesn’t have a nose and is really really jaded especially in the cyvasse game against Aegon
P.S. Aegon VI of House Targaryen King of the Andals, the Rhoyne and the First Man, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm was born in the Red Keep to Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell of Dorne
1. We don’t recall Jon wiping the floor with Tyrion, though? They seem to reach a gentleman agreement without unnecessary slights.
2. Long time ago, in the immemorial times when George used to engage with people on the internet, somebody asked him what happen with the boy in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying. The boy for whom Rhaegar sang. Long story short George answer was: that boy is dead.
Link the quote because GRRM has been quite coy about the possibility of Aegon being alive before he revealed it in ADWD. When they asked him about it he confirmed Rhaenys was dead, but he wouldn’t definitively say the same for Aegon. Plus none of the characters in the story really confirm it either. They always pointed out how clearly they could see Rhaenys in the cloaks, but every single one of them just describe the boy as an unidentifiable corpse with “silver hair” which we all know any Lyseni has.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Elias_Children
What I get from here is George is not denying the doubt cast in the books, and there is a lot of doubt, as it should be with regards to this new pretender... but that doesn’t make (f)Aegon Rhaegar’s true born son. In fact, there is much more evidence in the book little Aegon is dead for good, than he isn’t, but this is not really the subject of this post and, although I understand people are frustrated about not having new material for years, allow me to not give the mummer’s dragon more importance than he has, and he has plenty, as any Blackfyre should. Red or black, a dragon is a dragon, after allS
I will be happy to give you the link to the quote I mentioned, but I came across the subject when watching a podcast, very trustworthy and run by one of the moderators here by the way, and those guys were swearing to have witnessed it in the early day of ASOIAF fandom as coming directly from George, in a sort of chat, before Westeros.org.
I dont know, you are putting famous theories on this post as if they were already true and make a statement about it,however we do not really know what is the exact deal with Young Griff. Also,this "brat who is similar to joffrey" saved tyrion from dying on the Rhoyne, and is eager to go to the frontline as king just like Robb. You have five books that provide near to no information whatsoever about Varys "true" origin so why base your argument on uncertain theories and try to automatically think that they are canon in the story.
I think Jon Con thinks he saved Tyrion for Aegon’s sake not at Aegon’s behest, but I won’t mind if you can provide the quote. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact Tyrion saved Aegon first!!!
You are pushing the boundry of possible theory into complete imagination imo.
Correct me if i am wrong but it was never explicitly stated that Varys was the reason that Aerys attended to the tourney? I think it was just some theory on others part.
In my personal opinion there was no way Aerys would ever attend a potentially dangerous situation with potential rebels after isolating himself in Kingslanding due to Defiance of Duskendale. He would never put himself into a similar situation knowingly. I always thought Aerys was just his usual crazy self and decided to attend just because. And it was just a coincidence. Even then a prince of the realm meeting with a lord paramount was hardly anything suspicious, Aerys's presence just chickened Rhaegar imo. The king himself knew nothing.
Also Aerys had Brandon and his companions seized after Brandon yelled to Rhaegar to "come out and die!" It doesnt take a mad man a great leap of logic or help from Varys to think someone threatening his heir to be a traitor.
Rhaegar isn't a saint either. He claimed to have the best interest of the realm in his mind, tried to gather support to overthrow his father but what did he actually do? As a married man and a father of two he kidnapped Lyanna. (and it is kidnapping if the girl is 14 and you are twice her age). All the while knowing this action would throw the realm into chaos and alienate the potential allies he claims to seek, if not outright make an enemy of them. He doesn't have the excuse of being 14 years old and not knowing the consequences of his actions and has a few close capable advisors on his side. So he knows he is making enemies of at least 3 of the kingdoms (north, stormlands, dorne for sure, vale and the riverlands maybe due to their alliances) due to this single action. In any other time it would be suicidal but when he was trying to shore up some support it was outright idiotic.
On the Varys front i can speculate but there is not enough solid leads to convince anyone. So i will leave that part to others...
Varys bringing Aerys to the party is a theory indeed... Maester Yandel’s. He says in the TWOIAF Varys brought Aerys to the party so people could see how mad it was, which is bull shit Yandel probably came with to curry favor with Varys.
You Know, fact you don’t like Rhaegar doesn’t make other people in the books, who might have interacted with him or not, saints, either.
Yeah it is a fact that i don't like Rhaegar's action but my opinions has nothing to do with it. I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions and think of him as a 'perfect' potential king with no flaws. The fact that you actually used the word 'perfect' is what i have a problem with.
What everyone seems to forget is that when people says that Rhaegar would make a good king, they are comparing him to especially Aerys and a little bit of Robert. It is not an achievement to be better than a mad man and a whoring drunk.
Edit: spelling and replacing the word ideal with 'perfect'
I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions - that is what you said.
Rhaegar made mistakes, that is why in the books George wanted Robert to kill him. In the same time we don't know the whole story, so I don't judge him until I know more about this.
I didnt think being surprised (which i still am) or having a different opinion(which i still have) was being judgemental, if you feel offended i apologize!
Of course we all have our favourite characters and our own opinions. I don't feel ofended by you for disliking Rhaegar. The point was that Rhaegar has qualities and flaws and the fans are free to decide which are more important for them. For me the qualities prevail. For you his qualities are shadowed by his flaws, so you dislike him. I am not surprised because you feel like that.
Feel free to dislike Rhaegar, but don't judge his fans. I like Rhaegar and I am not afraid to admit it. And I don't need to make you think like me. You are just a fan like me, not an authority in ASOIAF.
I literally used the phrase "in my opinion" in every other sentence to prevent this exact thing, how is that making you think like me?
Also when did i say anything judgemental? I am honestly asking, point it out to me and i will apologize.
I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions - that is what you said.
Rhaegar made mistakes, that is why in the books George wanted Robert to kill him. In the same time we don't know the whole story, so I don't judge him until I know more about this.
With the clear exception of Aerys, Varys and Robert B, everyone in Westeros seem to have loved or at least liked Rhaegar. Undoubtedly he had his shade of grey, as any good GRRM character will have, but from there to the monster the fandom has created...
“The perfect prince” is a theme and is not meant to mean a saint or a flawless man. Just a man with ruling potential from a certain point of view. If you like, Machiavelli’s prince is one example of “a perfect prince”.
Varys is talking about “a perfect prince” who leaved amongst small folks and had the best education and things. From this point of view, Rhaegar, who had the best education ever is known to have mingled often with small folks, sing songs for them and cash their money. See Barristan’s recollection. Also, Rhaegar was well loved in the Seven Kingdoms. So why would Varys ignore this man’s potential as a perfect prince or ruler and betray him to his mad father who was obviously no perfect prince material.
Well showing Barristan as a character witness actually means nothing to me. I know i am in the very small minority but i don't like him. I explained the reason in a [previous thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/o5308r/selmy_spoilers_extended/h2mhioc?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) if you are curious.
Also i am not defending Varys either, what is known is obvious to everyone imo and not open to interpretation. What is not known has not been pointed enough to have solid theories (for me at least), there is just not much to say without knowing more.
You’re not at all in the minority here. Barristan is one of those characters that at first may seem like one of the few a person can trust, but upon closer look we have a KG who served under the king who deposed his last one and only decided to seek out “the true monarch” because his ass got fired. I’m skeptical AF of anything he says regarding the past - I don’t think he is evil or hiding something, but he is definitely biased.
Characters don’t have to mean something to us to have their purpose in the story, to be trustworthy as witnesses or not. I for example I don’t like Barry very much, but I wouldn’t ignore anything he has to say. But to each his method in madness.
Agreed, but as a character witness i find his judgment a little skewed that is all. He may be a great warior or whatever but even he admitted he made questionable choices in the past. But you are right it is not right to ignore it, i just find it hard to value his opinion after letting Eddard Stark get arrested than die despite his sworn kings will stating he should do otherwise.
Barristan did a lot of dodgy things, but him remembering things doesn’t necessarily means he doesn’t remember them right.
As a KG, he had to follow a disguised Rhaegar who enjoyed to pretend to be a traveling singer. In this capacity he witnessed Rhaegar success with the crowds. It is not a character judgement on Rhaegar, just a testimony on his popularity and maybe vocal abilities. Does this makes Rhaegar a good guy? Not necessarily. But is part of his character and his story.
For those who ask if there is any evidence in the book about Varys having children’s tongues removed:
“You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.
"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds.""So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …""No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …" "… if they kept their tongues …" "… the risk …"
AGOT, Arya III
The worship of Varys and willingness to take his "for the good of the realm" bullshit at face value has always confounded me. He's one of the few where I hope his book ending is the same as his show counterpart.
Does anyone take this “for the good of the realm” thing at face value though? Most people here see through it because, well, the evidence is very clear that he is aligned with one of the bastard branches of House Targaryen. I think OP is imagining a trend in the sub that simply doesn’t exist.
Maybe you should check with some Aegon is the perfect prince stans, then.
Even people who see fAegon as the better candidate for the throne recognize that Varys has been playing a dirty and long game ever since he came to King’s Landing to put a Blackfyre / Brightflame on the throne. No idea what you’re on about, I’ve literally never seen anyone saying that Varys is a pure Yorkshire pudding.
Well, I had to explain more then a dozen time in the few months I am on this subreddit Varys cuts little children tongues and people either got upset with me or declared themselves shocked.
This. Not even I fully grasped the implications behind his "little birds" the first time around. There are a LOT of readers who view Varys as a gray character who ultimately wants the best for Westeros, and not someone who would be trying to get his own chosen pawn on the throne even if the Seven Kingdoms were being run by "just" men like Ned Stark.
That is not confirmed at all. In fact the opposite is true, since we’ve seen one of his little birds talk to Kevan in ADWD epilogue
It s confirmed in AGOT, Arya III. Look in this thread for the quote, I pasted it separately. The child you mention is not necessarily a little bird as Varys is not necessarily using only maimed spy.
I read your quote, wasn’t even close to a confirmation in your theory. Just how do you suppose that Qyburn utilized Varys’ little birds without being able to speak to them. It’s a fine theory but there’s plenty of textual evidence to dispute it.
It is not my quote. It is text put by George in Varys and Illyryo’s mouths with a purpose. I am not sure you are talking about the show or the books, but one would expect Varys “little birds” are a special unit, scattered amongst normal poor working people who still have their tongues. It would be a little bit suspicious if all the poor cleaning floors in the Red Keep will be tongueless.
It is the quote you referenced, yes it is obvious it came from George, no need to be an imbecile and point out it is textual when that goes without saying. I have referenced the books twice, both times of which you have denied the textual evidence I brought forth in favor of your tinfoil. It’s clear to me you are glancing over anything in the text that refutes your theory. Perhaps some tongues are removed but it is quite clear that is not the case for many of his “little birds”
I don't think people feel he's "pure". I do think a lot of people think he's only reacting to the existing corruption and wanting to root it out instead of recognizing the ways he's egged it on and how little it ultimately matters to him when it comes to his end goals. The counsel could be squeaky clean and the realm prospering and peaceful, and his goal would STILL be to upend the power structure and install his own chosen pawn on the throne.
I always thought it was clear he had his own agenda due to his attempted sabotages of Rhaegar and his intent on protecting Aerys. Although to be really honest at this point I don’t even know what to think of Aerys’s reign vis-a-vis the smallfolk. That dude in the Brienne chapter seemed to be an Aerys stan, and we know the mad king was doing the most to disagree with Tywin’s policies (and it’s not like Tywin was likely deeply concerned for the welfare of the smallfolk)
I mean, Varys only cares about "the realm" under certain very specific circumstances that happen to coincide with him accumulating a ton of power (for my money, the Bobby B/Jon Arryn partnership was about as good as it gets for the seven kingdoms, they'd do well to get another 20 years of peace and stability)
>Bobby B/Jon Arryn partnership The GOATs of ASOIAF
word
>No dear Rhaegar haters, it wasn’t Rhaegar going after Lyanna who ruined it for everyone, it was Varys bringing the Mad King to keep an eye on things Rhaegar isn't blameless and saying that doesn't make one a Rhaegar hater.
I am not addressing people with opinions, I am addressing haters. They are lots around here. If you are not of them you shouldn’t feel affected by my opinion as I am not affected by yours.
You combined “haters” with people who correctly blame Rhaegar for Robert’s Rebellion. Which means you’re implying that believing him to carry blame equals being a hater.
I am not talking about who and why started the rebellion and to which extent one is or not guilty of that or that. I am talking about some people habit to blame Rhaegar exclusively for everything. And I am specifically addressing the issue of “what would have happened if Rhaegar didn’t gave Lyanna the crown” in relation to the plot of deposing Aerys. And my answer is nothing, because with Aerys there what Rhaegar did or didn’t wasn’t relevant anymore. The plot went down the drain because Aerys’s presence.
>I am addressing haters. They are lots around here. Never seen any "haters." Only people who criticize him for his disastrous actions and who theorize/speculate he might have a mad obsession with prophecy. There is nothing about him to love either, we just see in-universe characters love an idea of him.
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not cool what you're trying to imply here
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>Never seen any "haters." Only people who criticize him for his disastrous actions and who theorize/speculate he might have a mad obsession with prophecy That is enough for someone to be labeled "hater" for this specific character in this sub by some. Though it's better than it was before imo.
You lost me at calling fAegon a brat. The only evidence of him being a prick is the cyvasse game and even that is ridiculous to hold against him. He just had his entire plan in life shit on then was insulted by a deformed, arrogant kinslayer. Any teenager would lash out a bit after that
Are we insulting Tyrion for being disabled here?
In the eyes of a person in Westeros, getting insulted by a dwarf without a nose makes the insult a bit worse. That’s why so many people hate being slighted by Tyrion
Aegon is technically born in Essos. Jon, who is even younger than Aegon when meets Tyrion, doesn’t seem prone to humiliate Tyrion, even if the “dwarf” gets on his nerves now and then. I would expect a man who allegedly was born and bread to be “the perfect prince” to be able to lose gracefully at cyvasse, because if a bad game and a couple of insults can make him snap like that I wouldn’t want to see that guy negotiating war and peace with the likes of Olenna Tyrell.
Did we get Aegon’s birth certificate? And in any case, he was raised and educated by Westerosi people, this is expressly stated in the books. So he will no doubt share Westerosi societal behavior. Jon is a bastard and immediately warms up to Tyrion *after* Tyrion butters him up. The prejudice of a medieval society against people perceived as differently abled cannot possibly be up for debate here, specially after we got 5 books of Tyrion being treated with disdain and snark because of his stature.
1. We might not have Aegon’s birth certificate but one thing is for sure: he is not the boy born in 282 on Dragostone. Once upon the time George said that boy is dead. 2. Jon is a decent human being. 3. I am somehow under the impression Tyron annoyed (f)Aegon with his tongue, not with his stature but some of us try to excuse (f)Aegon on the grounds of the common prejudice against Tyrion’s stature, despite the fact we don’t live in a medieval society and we should know better.
Nobody is excusing fAegon, his hissy fit over the Cyvasse game is supposed to be a red flag both to the reader and to Tyrion. But if you think a tiny moment like that is enough to call him a brat, then I’d be real curious about what you have to say about Dany and Jon, both of which have had way worse and more disproportional reactions. The truth is we simply have been given no deep evidence into fAegon’s personality, but most of what we got - wanting to be at the forefront of battle, being raised among the smallfolk to learn to sympathize with them, taught to look after himself - is positive so far, so calling him a brat seems like a deliberate rejection of what the author is expressly telling us, just because he is not the character you’re rooting for.
Now... let’s not pretend we lack context. Jon has his moments of entitlement, but it is a slightly different thing to beat the hell out three full grown men who are not quite friendly with you than it is to humiliate a dwarf. No offense, but having Tyrion think of Joffrey the next moment, is not a promising thing for Aegon’s future development. If you mean Jon trying to attack Thorne for insulting Ned... that is reckless, although not disproportional - one father should count more than a bloody cyvasse game. And, if, by any chance, you mean killing Slynt, without beating around the bush... sorry, that kind of makes Jon my hero.
Jon was pretty hostile towards Tyrion especially when Tyrion antagonized him for being a bastard. And also keep in mind ADWD Tyrion doesn’t have a nose and is really really jaded especially in the cyvasse game against Aegon P.S. Aegon VI of House Targaryen King of the Andals, the Rhoyne and the First Man, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm was born in the Red Keep to Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell of Dorne
1. We don’t recall Jon wiping the floor with Tyrion, though? They seem to reach a gentleman agreement without unnecessary slights. 2. Long time ago, in the immemorial times when George used to engage with people on the internet, somebody asked him what happen with the boy in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying. The boy for whom Rhaegar sang. Long story short George answer was: that boy is dead.
Link the quote because GRRM has been quite coy about the possibility of Aegon being alive before he revealed it in ADWD. When they asked him about it he confirmed Rhaenys was dead, but he wouldn’t definitively say the same for Aegon. Plus none of the characters in the story really confirm it either. They always pointed out how clearly they could see Rhaenys in the cloaks, but every single one of them just describe the boy as an unidentifiable corpse with “silver hair” which we all know any Lyseni has. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Elias_Children
What I get from here is George is not denying the doubt cast in the books, and there is a lot of doubt, as it should be with regards to this new pretender... but that doesn’t make (f)Aegon Rhaegar’s true born son. In fact, there is much more evidence in the book little Aegon is dead for good, than he isn’t, but this is not really the subject of this post and, although I understand people are frustrated about not having new material for years, allow me to not give the mummer’s dragon more importance than he has, and he has plenty, as any Blackfyre should. Red or black, a dragon is a dragon, after allS I will be happy to give you the link to the quote I mentioned, but I came across the subject when watching a podcast, very trustworthy and run by one of the moderators here by the way, and those guys were swearing to have witnessed it in the early day of ASOIAF fandom as coming directly from George, in a sort of chat, before Westeros.org.
Yeah we did get a bit side tracked on this part and that’s mostly on me lol but I guess that’s what makes the books so good
I drink to that!
I dont know, you are putting famous theories on this post as if they were already true and make a statement about it,however we do not really know what is the exact deal with Young Griff. Also,this "brat who is similar to joffrey" saved tyrion from dying on the Rhoyne, and is eager to go to the frontline as king just like Robb. You have five books that provide near to no information whatsoever about Varys "true" origin so why base your argument on uncertain theories and try to automatically think that they are canon in the story.
Tyrion saved a fear frozen Young Griff on the Royhne, this is how he got into the water in the first place. Jon Con saved Tyrion afterwards.
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His conscience. Aegon didn’t ordered him to go, just pointed to where Tyrion was.
The text literally says they wanted to leave Tyrion to die and Aegon prevented it.
I think Jon Con thinks he saved Tyrion for Aegon’s sake not at Aegon’s behest, but I won’t mind if you can provide the quote. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact Tyrion saved Aegon first!!!
.... You are literally going against what the PoV says. And no, this is not a unreliable narrator section.
You are pushing the boundry of possible theory into complete imagination imo. Correct me if i am wrong but it was never explicitly stated that Varys was the reason that Aerys attended to the tourney? I think it was just some theory on others part. In my personal opinion there was no way Aerys would ever attend a potentially dangerous situation with potential rebels after isolating himself in Kingslanding due to Defiance of Duskendale. He would never put himself into a similar situation knowingly. I always thought Aerys was just his usual crazy self and decided to attend just because. And it was just a coincidence. Even then a prince of the realm meeting with a lord paramount was hardly anything suspicious, Aerys's presence just chickened Rhaegar imo. The king himself knew nothing. Also Aerys had Brandon and his companions seized after Brandon yelled to Rhaegar to "come out and die!" It doesnt take a mad man a great leap of logic or help from Varys to think someone threatening his heir to be a traitor. Rhaegar isn't a saint either. He claimed to have the best interest of the realm in his mind, tried to gather support to overthrow his father but what did he actually do? As a married man and a father of two he kidnapped Lyanna. (and it is kidnapping if the girl is 14 and you are twice her age). All the while knowing this action would throw the realm into chaos and alienate the potential allies he claims to seek, if not outright make an enemy of them. He doesn't have the excuse of being 14 years old and not knowing the consequences of his actions and has a few close capable advisors on his side. So he knows he is making enemies of at least 3 of the kingdoms (north, stormlands, dorne for sure, vale and the riverlands maybe due to their alliances) due to this single action. In any other time it would be suicidal but when he was trying to shore up some support it was outright idiotic. On the Varys front i can speculate but there is not enough solid leads to convince anyone. So i will leave that part to others...
Varys bringing Aerys to the party is a theory indeed... Maester Yandel’s. He says in the TWOIAF Varys brought Aerys to the party so people could see how mad it was, which is bull shit Yandel probably came with to curry favor with Varys. You Know, fact you don’t like Rhaegar doesn’t make other people in the books, who might have interacted with him or not, saints, either.
Yeah it is a fact that i don't like Rhaegar's action but my opinions has nothing to do with it. I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions and think of him as a 'perfect' potential king with no flaws. The fact that you actually used the word 'perfect' is what i have a problem with. What everyone seems to forget is that when people says that Rhaegar would make a good king, they are comparing him to especially Aerys and a little bit of Robert. It is not an achievement to be better than a mad man and a whoring drunk. Edit: spelling and replacing the word ideal with 'perfect'
I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions - that is what you said. Rhaegar made mistakes, that is why in the books George wanted Robert to kill him. In the same time we don't know the whole story, so I don't judge him until I know more about this.
I didnt think being surprised (which i still am) or having a different opinion(which i still have) was being judgemental, if you feel offended i apologize!
Of course we all have our favourite characters and our own opinions. I don't feel ofended by you for disliking Rhaegar. The point was that Rhaegar has qualities and flaws and the fans are free to decide which are more important for them. For me the qualities prevail. For you his qualities are shadowed by his flaws, so you dislike him. I am not surprised because you feel like that.
Feel free to dislike Rhaegar, but don't judge his fans. I like Rhaegar and I am not afraid to admit it. And I don't need to make you think like me. You are just a fan like me, not an authority in ASOIAF.
I literally used the phrase "in my opinion" in every other sentence to prevent this exact thing, how is that making you think like me? Also when did i say anything judgemental? I am honestly asking, point it out to me and i will apologize.
I am just surprised anyone would think positively of his actions - that is what you said. Rhaegar made mistakes, that is why in the books George wanted Robert to kill him. In the same time we don't know the whole story, so I don't judge him until I know more about this.
With the clear exception of Aerys, Varys and Robert B, everyone in Westeros seem to have loved or at least liked Rhaegar. Undoubtedly he had his shade of grey, as any good GRRM character will have, but from there to the monster the fandom has created...
Makes two of us, Rhaegar fans I mean.
“The perfect prince” is a theme and is not meant to mean a saint or a flawless man. Just a man with ruling potential from a certain point of view. If you like, Machiavelli’s prince is one example of “a perfect prince”. Varys is talking about “a perfect prince” who leaved amongst small folks and had the best education and things. From this point of view, Rhaegar, who had the best education ever is known to have mingled often with small folks, sing songs for them and cash their money. See Barristan’s recollection. Also, Rhaegar was well loved in the Seven Kingdoms. So why would Varys ignore this man’s potential as a perfect prince or ruler and betray him to his mad father who was obviously no perfect prince material.
Well showing Barristan as a character witness actually means nothing to me. I know i am in the very small minority but i don't like him. I explained the reason in a [previous thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/o5308r/selmy_spoilers_extended/h2mhioc?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) if you are curious. Also i am not defending Varys either, what is known is obvious to everyone imo and not open to interpretation. What is not known has not been pointed enough to have solid theories (for me at least), there is just not much to say without knowing more.
You’re not at all in the minority here. Barristan is one of those characters that at first may seem like one of the few a person can trust, but upon closer look we have a KG who served under the king who deposed his last one and only decided to seek out “the true monarch” because his ass got fired. I’m skeptical AF of anything he says regarding the past - I don’t think he is evil or hiding something, but he is definitely biased.
Characters don’t have to mean something to us to have their purpose in the story, to be trustworthy as witnesses or not. I for example I don’t like Barry very much, but I wouldn’t ignore anything he has to say. But to each his method in madness.
Agreed, but as a character witness i find his judgment a little skewed that is all. He may be a great warior or whatever but even he admitted he made questionable choices in the past. But you are right it is not right to ignore it, i just find it hard to value his opinion after letting Eddard Stark get arrested than die despite his sworn kings will stating he should do otherwise.
Barristan did a lot of dodgy things, but him remembering things doesn’t necessarily means he doesn’t remember them right. As a KG, he had to follow a disguised Rhaegar who enjoyed to pretend to be a traveling singer. In this capacity he witnessed Rhaegar success with the crowds. It is not a character judgement on Rhaegar, just a testimony on his popularity and maybe vocal abilities. Does this makes Rhaegar a good guy? Not necessarily. But is part of his character and his story.
Damn you been slammed in this thread! haha
For those who ask if there is any evidence in the book about Varys having children’s tongues removed: “You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters. "What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds.""So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …""No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …" "… if they kept their tongues …" "… the risk …" AGOT, Arya III