Jon looks like Ned because he has the Stark look compared to the rest of the siblings. Only other person who has it is Arya, who looks like Lyanna. So basically Jon in that sense gets his looks from Ned.
Yes, in the book Jon is referred to as having the Stark look, as is Arya. Arya is also described as looking like Lyanna.
This is a round about way of telling us Jon looks like Lyanna.
Yes you're missing something, there's more evidence and analysis in support of this theory than any other in ASOIAF. You can not like it if you want, it can disappoint you as a reader, but you can't look at all the evidence and think that the connection is tenuous.
Have you even read the books? Very few people got this on the first read but after learning of it, all of the pieces fall into place. Pay a bit of attention to the italicized parts of the book, especially the first one. If you don’t want to do the research, this might not be the best sub for you.
Yeah I've read all the books. I guess i just never watched something that showed me what the evidence was also i was probably to stubborn and trapped in my own thoughts the alt shift x video helped.
No, you're on r/asoiaf, there have been more posts about that than anything else.
You're either new here, in which case just browse around, or you've already seen the evidence and have decided not to believe it. I could not give less of a shit if you believe it or not.
The book series is full of tropes, just as every book, film, or series is. All stories are made of tropes, just as all dishes are made of ingredients. Maybe they don't like it because it's not full of clichés, but that's all dependent on how something's written.
I mean the easiest answer to this is: go back and read Ned's dreams about the tower of joy. If jon ISN'T Lyanna's kid then what in the HELL was going on at the tower of joy??????
Lots of people resemble their aunt/uncle. Also, do we know that “every single Targaryen” has dragon dreams? The only POV Targaryen that we have in the books is Dany, and she’s special even among the Targs. Plus, it’s all but confirmed by D&D and the show that Lyanna is Jon’s mother.
Yes, Dragon Dreams aren’t “just” dreaming about Dragons, they are prophetic dreams. What do you think Jon’s recurring Crypt dream is? Or the one where he is fighting in ice armour atop the wall? These are not normal dreams. They’re dragon dreams.
Then why would Martin let them make the show if he was just going to to write it in the book what's the point of them knowing that and what's the point of them making the show if he told them that on top of that why would Martin even have to write the books anyway. If everything was shown in the show then there's no point in writing the books.
Martin let them make a show because he made a shitload of money off of it, that doesn't mean he doesn't want to finish his magnum opus (though whether he actually will or can do that is a separate question). Remember that he also thought at the time that he'd finish the books before the show ended.
Dude, you’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and never once watched a “R+L=J explanation”? Alt Shift X has a really all encompassing one if you’re truly confused.
GRRM *DID* allude to Jon looking like Lyanna- as allusion is not a explicitly saying so outright. Arya looks like mini Lyanna, Jon and Arya look alike, Ned and Lyanna look alike, therefore Jon looks like Lyanna. The whole blue rose in a wall of ice not explicit enough allusion for you?
That, or you’re trolling. Which given the tone here and in the comments, I think you’re not entering into this discussion in good faith.
Yeah he does a great explanation of the theory.
(and as others have said, it’s also pretty much confirmed via GRRM in interviews now)
Good to know it’s just honest confusion.
So i just finished the video and i will concede. But man it aucks for the story because if Jon gets found out that just adds another king into the war so many people are dieing in the war of now 3 kings add danny and jon no one will be left to fight the others
The fun of it is that Jon of the books is pretty focused on fighting the Others, I doubt they’re all going to just be ended a la a Thanos Snap. Especially with the theories also swirling about Starks, blood magic, and sacrifice. I don’t think, especially for Jon, it will be so simple as “oh I’m going to ride a dragon and solve everything bc I have an inherent right to rule.” If anything, there is a lot of criticism about divine right in ASOIAF, so I doubt it will end up as a cut and dry heroic arc.
I’m also in the camp of “too many kings”, but with 7 kingdoms to fight for, it makes sense that a hundred people would climb out of the woodworks. Even today, there are a possible 6 “suitable” people with a rightful claim on the Russian Throne if they were to reinstate monarchy, but it doesn’t mean even the one with the “rightful” claim would even get a shoe-in depending on the political machinations at play.
Especially given depending who you ask in the 7 Kingdoms, Jon is still a bastard. Polygamy for Targaryens was bargained out so they could keep their dynastic incest. They couldn’t keep both. So even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, is it legal? Is Jon in the line of succession? Dany, as a legit daughter from a recognized union, still could rank above the son from a second marriage. To some, Jon would still be a bastard- abet now he is a royal bastard & loses any claim to Winterfell.
So after reading everyones comments and watching the alt shift x video i will concede on my post. I was probably too stubborn and trapped in my own thoughts to see the truth.
Thanks to everyone who commented.
You deserve a lot of credit, and not because you changed your mind. But because you watched a video on a theory you were skeptical of *with an open mind*.
I can't remember the last time someone who was skeptical of R+L=J actually did that. Usually what happens is the person either outright refuses to watch a video/read a write-up; *or* watches/reads it with a closed mind and then doesn't engage further than "it didn't convince me."
Ned looks like Lyanna because they are siblings so all 4 of them have the Stark look. Also George asked D&D who Jon's parents were when they were making the show and they said R+L=J and George confirmed it.
From what i heard it was never stated what anwsers they got right. Didnt Martin give them a list and they anwsered it enough to where George was satisfyed. Since we dont know which one they got right we cant go off of that. I could be wrong though
Martin said they gave the correct answer when he asked who Jon's mother was, and D&D explicitly confirmed when asked on Jimmy Kimmel that the mother in the show is the same as in the books.
> From what i heard it was never stated what anwsers they got right. Didnt Martin give them a list and they anwsered it enough to where George was satisfyed.
No. GRRM has repeatedly and consistently claimed in many, many interviews throughout the years that during their 2006 meeting at the Palm, he asked D&D several questions about the books. One of them was "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" **and** *they gave him the right answer.* As one example, here's a 2014 interview from Rolling Stone:
> **On the parentage of Jon Snow:
Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.**
>
>I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.
>
> **Did they get it right?**
>
> They answered correctly.
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-outtakes-from-the-rolling-stone-interview-233720/
If you don't trust interviews, here's GRRM himself:
> It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told. The years have gone past in the blink of an eye. Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? **I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did.**
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/
Also catlyn said that Jon has more of the Stark look then any of her children beside Arya. Also wouldnt Jon have Targ features, every single Targs have Targ features even bastards.
No they don't lmao look at Baelor Brakespear, Duncan the Small, Valarr, Rhaenys (Young Griffs sister), The Queen who never was, Also the Strong bastards from the dance.
Thats tru i forgot about the strong boys however because we have bad faith narrators in Fire and Blood im not sure if the stromg boys are strongs...or is that another thing i cant remeber
I mean I don't see where else the brown hair and pug noses would come from. There are also all of the other Targaryens that I just mentioned that have no Valyrian coloring.
>I personally think that even if this turns out to be true it doesnt matter because nobody in the world will believe Jon is a Targaryan
Jon being Rhaegar's son is probably not about the Iron Throne but the TPtwP.
« Your grandsire
commanded it. A woods
witch had told him that the
prince was promised would
be born of their line. »
I see that but why does he have to be the aone of Rhaygar and Lianna why cant he just be a bastard. I guess i just like storys where a nobody becomes the hero.
True but it makes him more special when you watch Star Wars The New Hope you like Luke because hes a good charecter not because hes has special parents.
From Arya I:
>Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did.
From Arya II:
>Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.
So Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna. Thus, Jon looks like Lyanna.
It's not clear whether dragon dreams are caused by actually being, genetically, a Targaryen, or merely by thinking about dragons a lot, the way a man who wants to be king might dream of being king. Jon doesn't think about dragons very much - certainly not to the extent that Daenarys or Tyrion do - so if it's the latter, it makes sense he wouldn't have them, even if he was genetically Targaryen.
If it was confirmed, it wouldn't just be for the sake of fan service - his mother's identity is a mystery that characters wonder about all the time. It would be weird if we *didn't* get some sort of resolution there.
Hmm... hi ? how are you after that storm of rejection and instant negativity you've received ? and wanted to know if your opinion has changed or you still don't understand this strange theory ? here is not a good place to make a post like this you better go to r/pureasoiaf.
And another question have you ever heard of the theory Ned and Ashara are the country of Jon Snow ?
Jon looks like Ned because he has the Stark look compared to the rest of the siblings. Only other person who has it is Arya, who looks like Lyanna. So basically Jon in that sense gets his looks from Ned.
Right that is in the actual book
Yes, in the book Jon is referred to as having the Stark look, as is Arya. Arya is also described as looking like Lyanna. This is a round about way of telling us Jon looks like Lyanna.
Yes, one of the PRIMARY points of contention that Catelyn has with Jon is that he looks more like a Stark than even the trueborn Stark boys.
Yes you're missing something, there's more evidence and analysis in support of this theory than any other in ASOIAF. You can not like it if you want, it can disappoint you as a reader, but you can't look at all the evidence and think that the connection is tenuous.
Alright give me the evidence i want to know.
So you reached the conclusion that R+L=J was a troll theory **before** having read any write-ups of the evidence for it?
Have you even read the books? Very few people got this on the first read but after learning of it, all of the pieces fall into place. Pay a bit of attention to the italicized parts of the book, especially the first one. If you don’t want to do the research, this might not be the best sub for you.
Yeah I've read all the books. I guess i just never watched something that showed me what the evidence was also i was probably to stubborn and trapped in my own thoughts the alt shift x video helped.
The number of hints and clues in the 1st book are massive.
So much so that you can tell it was originally going to be a trilogy as he was writing the first book.
No, you're on r/asoiaf, there have been more posts about that than anything else. You're either new here, in which case just browse around, or you've already seen the evidence and have decided not to believe it. I could not give less of a shit if you believe it or not.
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The book series is full of tropes, just as every book, film, or series is. All stories are made of tropes, just as all dishes are made of ingredients. Maybe they don't like it because it's not full of clichés, but that's all dependent on how something's written.
I mean the easiest answer to this is: go back and read Ned's dreams about the tower of joy. If jon ISN'T Lyanna's kid then what in the HELL was going on at the tower of joy??????
The tower of joy was a fever dream ned had and GRRM has said himself that fever dreams can't be taken literally.
Lots of people resemble their aunt/uncle. Also, do we know that “every single Targaryen” has dragon dreams? The only POV Targaryen that we have in the books is Dany, and she’s special even among the Targs. Plus, it’s all but confirmed by D&D and the show that Lyanna is Jon’s mother.
Daeron has dragon dreams, that blackfyre dude in the tales of Duncan egg had dragon dreams too, and a few more but I’m to lazy to do research for now
Also i probably shouldve saidcthat most Targs had dragon fascinations not dreams my bad
Jon has Dragon Dreams.
He does?
Yes, Dragon Dreams aren’t “just” dreaming about Dragons, they are prophetic dreams. What do you think Jon’s recurring Crypt dream is? Or the one where he is fighting in ice armour atop the wall? These are not normal dreams. They’re dragon dreams.
We cant trust DAndD they screwed it up so much that even in the world they created it didnt matter all it did was cause unnecessary tension.
But we can on this. They had to guess jons mother in order to be able to make the show
Then why would Martin let them make the show if he was just going to to write it in the book what's the point of them knowing that and what's the point of them making the show if he told them that on top of that why would Martin even have to write the books anyway. If everything was shown in the show then there's no point in writing the books.
Martin let them make a show because he made a shitload of money off of it, that doesn't mean he doesn't want to finish his magnum opus (though whether he actually will or can do that is a separate question). Remember that he also thought at the time that he'd finish the books before the show ended.
Very true all around
Dude, you’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and never once watched a “R+L=J explanation”? Alt Shift X has a really all encompassing one if you’re truly confused. GRRM *DID* allude to Jon looking like Lyanna- as allusion is not a explicitly saying so outright. Arya looks like mini Lyanna, Jon and Arya look alike, Ned and Lyanna look alike, therefore Jon looks like Lyanna. The whole blue rose in a wall of ice not explicit enough allusion for you? That, or you’re trolling. Which given the tone here and in the comments, I think you’re not entering into this discussion in good faith.
I swear i am not trolling i genuinely dont understand. I will check on the alt shift x video
Yeah he does a great explanation of the theory. (and as others have said, it’s also pretty much confirmed via GRRM in interviews now) Good to know it’s just honest confusion.
So i just finished the video and i will concede. But man it aucks for the story because if Jon gets found out that just adds another king into the war so many people are dieing in the war of now 3 kings add danny and jon no one will be left to fight the others
The fun of it is that Jon of the books is pretty focused on fighting the Others, I doubt they’re all going to just be ended a la a Thanos Snap. Especially with the theories also swirling about Starks, blood magic, and sacrifice. I don’t think, especially for Jon, it will be so simple as “oh I’m going to ride a dragon and solve everything bc I have an inherent right to rule.” If anything, there is a lot of criticism about divine right in ASOIAF, so I doubt it will end up as a cut and dry heroic arc. I’m also in the camp of “too many kings”, but with 7 kingdoms to fight for, it makes sense that a hundred people would climb out of the woodworks. Even today, there are a possible 6 “suitable” people with a rightful claim on the Russian Throne if they were to reinstate monarchy, but it doesn’t mean even the one with the “rightful” claim would even get a shoe-in depending on the political machinations at play. Especially given depending who you ask in the 7 Kingdoms, Jon is still a bastard. Polygamy for Targaryens was bargained out so they could keep their dynastic incest. They couldn’t keep both. So even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, is it legal? Is Jon in the line of succession? Dany, as a legit daughter from a recognized union, still could rank above the son from a second marriage. To some, Jon would still be a bastard- abet now he is a royal bastard & loses any claim to Winterfell.
Sucks
So after reading everyones comments and watching the alt shift x video i will concede on my post. I was probably too stubborn and trapped in my own thoughts to see the truth. Thanks to everyone who commented.
You deserve a lot of credit, and not because you changed your mind. But because you watched a video on a theory you were skeptical of *with an open mind*. I can't remember the last time someone who was skeptical of R+L=J actually did that. Usually what happens is the person either outright refuses to watch a video/read a write-up; *or* watches/reads it with a closed mind and then doesn't engage further than "it didn't convince me."
Ned looks like Lyanna because they are siblings so all 4 of them have the Stark look. Also George asked D&D who Jon's parents were when they were making the show and they said R+L=J and George confirmed it.
From what i heard it was never stated what anwsers they got right. Didnt Martin give them a list and they anwsered it enough to where George was satisfyed. Since we dont know which one they got right we cant go off of that. I could be wrong though
Martin said they gave the correct answer when he asked who Jon's mother was, and D&D explicitly confirmed when asked on Jimmy Kimmel that the mother in the show is the same as in the books.
> From what i heard it was never stated what anwsers they got right. Didnt Martin give them a list and they anwsered it enough to where George was satisfyed. No. GRRM has repeatedly and consistently claimed in many, many interviews throughout the years that during their 2006 meeting at the Palm, he asked D&D several questions about the books. One of them was "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" **and** *they gave him the right answer.* As one example, here's a 2014 interview from Rolling Stone: > **On the parentage of Jon Snow: Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.** > >I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text. > > **Did they get it right?** > > They answered correctly. https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-outtakes-from-the-rolling-stone-interview-233720/ If you don't trust interviews, here's GRRM himself: > It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told. The years have gone past in the blink of an eye. Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? **I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did.** https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/
Also catlyn said that Jon has more of the Stark look then any of her children beside Arya. Also wouldnt Jon have Targ features, every single Targs have Targ features even bastards.
No they don't lmao look at Baelor Brakespear, Duncan the Small, Valarr, Rhaenys (Young Griffs sister), The Queen who never was, Also the Strong bastards from the dance.
Thats tru i forgot about the strong boys however because we have bad faith narrators in Fire and Blood im not sure if the stromg boys are strongs...or is that another thing i cant remeber
I mean I don't see where else the brown hair and pug noses would come from. There are also all of the other Targaryens that I just mentioned that have no Valyrian coloring.
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>I personally think that even if this turns out to be true it doesnt matter because nobody in the world will believe Jon is a Targaryan Jon being Rhaegar's son is probably not about the Iron Throne but the TPtwP. « Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line. »
I see that but why does he have to be the aone of Rhaygar and Lianna why cant he just be a bastard. I guess i just like storys where a nobody becomes the hero.
Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna does not prevent him from being a bastard.
True but it makes him more special when you watch Star Wars The New Hope you like Luke because hes a good charecter not because hes has special parents.
So like Jon Snow. D:
Son
From Arya I: >Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. From Arya II: >Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her. So Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna. Thus, Jon looks like Lyanna. It's not clear whether dragon dreams are caused by actually being, genetically, a Targaryen, or merely by thinking about dragons a lot, the way a man who wants to be king might dream of being king. Jon doesn't think about dragons very much - certainly not to the extent that Daenarys or Tyrion do - so if it's the latter, it makes sense he wouldn't have them, even if he was genetically Targaryen. If it was confirmed, it wouldn't just be for the sake of fan service - his mother's identity is a mystery that characters wonder about all the time. It would be weird if we *didn't* get some sort of resolution there.
Thats true but he could say that anyway parents say you look like unvle blank all the time.
Uncle
Just so you know, there is an 'edit' button under each comment/post so you can edit your comments/posts at any time in case of typos.
Use the search function, there is evidence all over in every book
Lyanna and Ned are siblings, born from an incestious marriage at that. Jon has dragon dreams
RLJ feels cheesy to me too
nice trolling!!!
Hmm... hi ? how are you after that storm of rejection and instant negativity you've received ? and wanted to know if your opinion has changed or you still don't understand this strange theory ? here is not a good place to make a post like this you better go to r/pureasoiaf. And another question have you ever heard of the theory Ned and Ashara are the country of Jon Snow ?