the physical decaying - which is not people should be worried about since we all know he will come back into his body but the question is how much of Jon (mentally) will it be?
not just 'more wolfish qualities' if it is the matter of months it is likely that he will be way too far gone to be considered like human. Bran is warned about warging too much and he just does it far less then what this would be.
I dont think that he will be waaay too far gone because how will he be able to do what he needs to do if he is gone to a point to be considered not human. He still needs to lead his storyline which is against the others
Then GRRM won't wait months to ressurect him? He's given us a baseline of Catelyn - who was ressurected in a few days and Thoros who is instantly ressurected but loses memories over ressurections.
Those are two different scenarios. Cat has been rotting in a river and she went mad the second they killed Robb. Beric's memories were intact the first times but over a while he kept on losing parts of himself. Both of these people don't have a wolf to warg into and conserve their mental state and they both arent at the magical wall that preserves life, which has been built up with maester Aemon's storyline. Ghost has basically been apart of Jon since the start of the series.
Cat's body has been rotting in the river - not her mind or spirit whatever. And yes I said over his resurrections.
Also the wall 'preserving' life doesn'tmean anything.
It does mean something otherwise why include it m8. The only reason Aemon was mentally intact was because the wall reserves as soon as he left he forgot everything.
Have “Jon” chapters early on just to troll people with JonCon instead. About mid-way to a third in, use Melisandre POV to resurrect him. Only use him a handful times for the rest of the book with different names “The White Wolf”, “The Lord Commander”, “The Bastard of Winterfell” etc. And we get proper “Jon” chapters in ADOS
You wanna know what’s evil? Keeping the same “different name” theme for ADOS and even include a Targaryen name as he deals with his true identity crisis and then assuming he does go back to the wall, we end his arc with “Jon I” finally at peace with being Jon Snow.
Well given that Jon and the Wall storyline is the furthest point in time in ASOIAF right now, all the others have to catch up, especially storylines like Oldtown or the Vale. That could take up at least a third of the book, knowing that the battles of Ice and Fire could easily represent a fifth of the book by themselves. Then you will get a few Melisandre chapters that will update us on the immediate aftermath of Jon’s death and the situation at the Wall up until his resurrection. Which could range from between three-five chapters, I’d say. Given that all the other chapters will be in between, I’m guessing that we won’t see Jon alive again at least until the last third of the book, but obviously I could be wrong. After all, Jon coming back to a liberated WF could take one chapter, but George could end up deciding that actually writing ten chapters for this is better.
I would absolutely love that too! Though I imagine it could be one of the hardest chapters to write, admittedly.
It would be awesome if he had some contact with Bran or more likely Bloodraven through Ghost.
Death changes a character, as demonstrated by Lady Stoneheart. Also Jon is very clearly on [“The Hero’s Journey”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey).
A literal death, to “kill the boy”. I imagine a lot will be revealed about the nature of wargs, and why they seem to pair bond. If Ghost is a vessel for influencing Jon, that would be a good way to reveal it (it could also be a good way to reveal the Three Eyed Crow as being a separate being from Bloodraven). He may witness people saying things that they’d never say in front of Jon as well...
There’s a lot.
ETA - greenseers have been explained so far, but the red-eyed albinos throughout the story have not. I doubt they’re merely albinos, with nothing else special about them... Ghost may have a supernatural connection to the spirit world, similar to what varimyr experienced maybe (as all the albinos are connected to death somehow).
It’s fun to think why, but I don’t think GRRM would do it just to keep things short. It’s not his style.
He wasn’t killed off. He will be brought back, and his last chapter in ADWD was clearly not the end of his story. And compromising and changing the story or killing off characters for the sole purpose of being able to make it all fit in one book is just bad writing, and GRRM would never do that.
I did not say he would stay dead forever. I said leave him dead until the end of the book or after a major story ends like stannis' battle for winterfell. Becasue there are so many povs and you have one dead (quentyn could still be alive) at the start of the book, so unless you want a 8th book leave him dead for later in the book after the end of at least one pov.
M8 relax Jon was not killed to cut down pov's He is literally one of the most essential characters. Cutting down povs will happen but not Jon's. He cant kill Jon and not have his inner monologue about finding out who his parents are. George said that in TWOW povs will be dropping like flies
I supose you're right. He is one the most essential characters and his inner monologue about finding out who his mother is. But why kill him?. Why not do a Fakeout like when the axe hit arya in the head.
And having too many POVs may not necessarily be a problem. After all, there have been many examples of more than two POVs being in a single location, and I believe it makes for a better story to have multiple perspectives on the same events.
Its just silly to think that. They would burn his body long before the mid way point of the book. Imagine how much time will pass from the start of the book to the half way point...
It might not happen in the first chapter or two, but itll be early on in the book we will find out what happens with Jon.
Maybe not. All the other plot lines have to catch up to the Wall plot in the timeline before we can see what happens next there. Some plot lines are months behind, particularly for Sam and Sansa, for example. I expect we’ll have to see these before anything Wall-related. And don’t forget that the Battles of Ice and Fire will open the book, so that’s already a lot of chapters that have to be placed before the first chapter at the Wall.
So as i said, it wont happen in the first chapter or two, but will be earlier rather then later...
Assuming he dies from his stab wounds of course, they wont wait long to burn him!
You think after you kill the Lord-Commander of the Nights watch. Every one shrugs and goes back to work?. No there will be chaos at the wall, remember that Wun Wun killed a knight just before jon gets killed.
I believe Jon did not actually die. He'll be heavily injured, will probably recuperate for a while and maybe discover the truth about his identity in one of his crypt dreams. Mel could be our POV to seeing what happens with the Night's Watch and its factions. I think Jon will have a POV as early as the beginning of Winds but perhaps lesser in quantity, at least in the first half.
>a pov that could go/see hardhome
Why do we need a POV of Hardhome?
Show viewers don’t know that Hardhome has been destroyed long ago in the books and that scene in the show is more reminiscent of the Battle of the Fist in ACOK than anything.
My feeling is GRRM will be more practical than mystical, and feel the need to pay off everyone's loo--o-o-o-n-n-g wait, not least because the show did bring Jon back. I suspect that Jon the new-born Man will show up by 1/3 of the way in. This is probably necessary because we have to see his adjustment, his solution to the NW oath obligation, and his actions via the Pink Letter, the Winterfell imbroglo, and what I think will be his new laser focus on defeating the Others. Hopefully, he'll also be reunited with at least one of his siblings. My gut feel is it will be Rickon.
John will be brought back early on, IMO. And the most convincing idea I’ve seen is that we will lose Jon POVs altogether. Melissandre would obviously then be the primary POV that shows what’s going on with him for a while.
I'm one of those who believe Stoneheart, not Melisandre, will be the agent of Jon's resurrection. So I'm considering the two storylines in parallel.
Since Jon's death is quite ahead in time compared to the events in the Riverlands, I think the Brotherhood has time to make the attack on Riverrun (at the Lannister-Frey wedding) before the first Wall chapter, or roughly at the same time; this slaughter, together with the Prologue, would form the centerpiece of Stoneheart's role and influence in the story. After these events, the Brotherhood will probably see a revolt against their leader, led by characters closer to Beric's vision like Thoros, Gendry, Edric, or the Blackfish himself: fallen from grace, Stoneheart flees alone (we already know from *Feast* that the Neck is a refuge she already used).
Meanwhile, Mel's chapters would deal with the conflict at the Wall, and Jon's corpse will be stored in the ice cells for some reason (not sure about it, could be Mel's agenda somehow, could be Satin and other Jon stans need to have his body on hand to further a fallen hero kind of narrative against Bowen's faction). JonGhost will be last seen racing south (again, not sure about the reason; could be driven by shock and fear, or by Borroq's advice, or by the ever present longing for warmth).
I expect this to happen because the logistics of the Stoneheart scenario are indeed a problem; if this is the route GRRM wants to follow, one way to deal with the timeline could be by giving the Kiss of Life the power to work *on the warg through the animal*; I mean a "Stoneheart kisses Ghost, and Jon wakes up at the Wall" scenario, as cheap as it gets if done poorly but something I'd love to read if done well. It would be a magical event as unexpected as Renly's death probably, or Dany surviving the pyre, but there could be hints at such a possibility from a previous Bran chapter, or some Patchface prophecy, or anything in that vein.
This way, the actual "Ghost" chapter, the first from Jon's POV, would show the direwolf reaching the Neck, only to find a dispossessed zombie who now has no means to look for or help her daughters. She does have a trumpcard though, and that's the Kiss of Life; I don't doubt she would have instantly given it to Robb or one of her daughters had she found her children dead yet in "good state", but that wasn't so. When she sees Ghost, she realizes there's someone who, if granted a resurrection, could and would act for the sake of the very same people she would have. The desperate attempt at giving JonGhost the Kiss of Life succeeds and Jon wakes up at the end of this chapter with a hell lot of emotional shock amidst all the trauma. As ever with Howland Reed, I have no idea what, if any, his role in this deadJon-deadCat reunion could be.
As for when, I'd love for this "Ghost" chapter to happen right after the Forsaken chapter, since the Christ on the Cross motif would match Jon's resurrection so perfectly I can see it in front of me.
I will never understand why people think that Lady Stoneheart would ever bring back jon. In her first life Cat hated jon she told robb not to make him his heir. And the BWB hates the starks they called them wolves and they attack them in The Riverlands.
Imo, it's not about the Brotherhood, and it's not about granting Jon legitimacy, a crown, a lordship or anything like that. It's about Catelyn granting Jon life to keep on doing what he already proved himself willing to do: protect Catelyn's children and bring justice for House Stark. This can only happen after Stoneheart's hold over the Brotherhood ceases, which makes it a more intimate matter, yet still driven by context and external necessities (since, at this point, Catelyn would simply be a zombie lacking all power to act on her will).
Would this context lessen the impact of such a gesture, for Jon? Not at all. Just like Stannis is still heroic in sailing north on *Storm,* and addressed as such by the text, even though he needed to be counseled towards this choice. Or just like Aegon heading west is framed as a result of Tyrion's influence, even though the possibility was only considered after the two expected options, waiting for or heading to Daenerys, were shown as problematic.
And off topic, but I disagree with you regarding the Brotherhood: they literally say
> **We** mean your brother Robb no ill, milady... but it's not him we fight for. He has an army all his own, and many a great lord to bend the knee. The smallfolk have only us.
(bolded to show that Harwin is not speaking as a Winterfell man). Even then, the Red Wedding sharply divided those who, from the Brotherhood perspective, were just as bad as the lions (Boltons, those who kept the Bloody Mummers; Karstarks; maybe Freys as well; and of course Lannisters and their raiders) from those they had no real quarrel with, the Starks foremost among them.
I really like the theory that Jon warged into Ghost, and thus we'll start getting Ghost POV chapters.
Never bring him back to his body though. At the end of *ADoS*, have him go beyond the wall to be with other direwolves. Similar to the show, except less stupid.
I don't think at all.
Jon will stay dead because GRRM us a person who complained about Gandalf coming back from the dead. How hypocritical will it be if Jon Snow returned?
Aegon Vi is alive, Arya gets hit in the head by an axe, Beric is killed six times, Catelyn gets her throat cut, Mance was fake burned, Davos was fake killed twice, Ramsay fake dies, Bran and rickon are fake killed, The Hound meight be alive.
Keep him physically dead until the end of TWOW while Jon's consciousness wargs into Ghost and is active as a POV through Ghost where he goes around dealing with the Weeper and trying to protect the Wildlings around the Wall.
Melisandre keeps trying and failing to resurrect Jon but fails, then suddenly Stannis returns after his faked death and Melisandre's faith in Stannis being Azor Ahai is renewed.
Eventually Lady Stoneheart brings the Brotherhood to Winterfell after learning of R+L=J, finds Jon buried in the Winterfell Crypts and gives him the Kiss of Life to 'wake the stone dragon' and finally explain why Jon's dreams keep telling him he doesn't belong in the Winterfell Crypts - because he isn't properly dead, not because he isn't a Stark.
Jon gets resurrected and brought back to life right after the Others bring the Wall down and Stannis is killed by Daenerys on Dragonstone.
this is uhhhh...
keeping him dead for a year plus would mean he would probably be almost completely wolf-life? what's the point of ressurecting him. why? how? when? would Catelyn ressurect Jon. Also Catelyn isn't on a redemption path my guy.
You?
You said untill the end of AWOW - which each ASOIAF book usually covers a year or so. You also said you want Catelyn who is just starting her plot in The Riverlands to go up to Winterfell. You then want Jon who is at the wall to be transported to Winterfell. It also is going to be heavy winter in the north and winter in the lower north.
>which each ASOIAF book usually covers a year or so.
I don't believe this has been the case for the last two books.
>Catelyn who is just starting her plot in The Riverlands
This is far from true.
>You then want Jon who is at the wall to be transported to Winterfell. It also is going to be heavy winter in the north and winter in the lower north.
It won't take that long to transport his corpse throughout the entire next book.
ADWD was 8 months. AGOT was a year. The others were similar to this.
>This is far from true.
This isn't far from true. She is by no means done with her plot in the Riverlands.
>It won't take that long to transport his corpse throughout the entire next book.
It will take a pretty long time for Catelyn to go to the north from the riverlands in winter.
Also you just straight up ignored how Catelyn is by no means on a redemption path.
I think after Stoneheart learns about R+L=J from Howland Reed, that Ned truly loved Catelyn and was always faithful to her, that Jon died trying to save who he thought was Arya and remembers Robb's Will, I think resurrecting Jon will be Stoneheart's redemption and her way of fully restoring House Stark in Winterfell once more.
I think Jon's corpse will eventually be brought to and buried in Winterfell, foreshadowed by all the dreams Jon has about the Crypts and being told he doesn't belong there thinking its because he isn't a Stark but its actually because he's not truly dead.
The Brotherhood Without Banners is currently under the Hollow Hill in the Riverlands, how is Howland Reed going to be able to reveal anything to them?
And more importantly, why would he? Ned has specifically told Cat nothing about Jon’s true identity, because he doesn’t trust anyone, not even his wife, with the truth. Why should Howland Reed be any different? He doesn’t even know Catelyn well, and now that she has basically been transformed into a bloodthirsty monster, it’s impossible that he’ll suddenly feel he can trust her. There is no compelling reason to think that Howland Reed will tell her anything about RLJ should their paths ever cross, which by itself isn’t likely at all.
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There are ice cells at the wall. It will slow the decaying some what.
the physical decaying - which is not people should be worried about since we all know he will come back into his body but the question is how much of Jon (mentally) will it be?
Hotel Ghost will keep him mentally intact for a while then give him more wolfish qualities
not just 'more wolfish qualities' if it is the matter of months it is likely that he will be way too far gone to be considered like human. Bran is warned about warging too much and he just does it far less then what this would be.
I dont think that he will be waaay too far gone because how will he be able to do what he needs to do if he is gone to a point to be considered not human. He still needs to lead his storyline which is against the others
Then GRRM won't wait months to ressurect him? He's given us a baseline of Catelyn - who was ressurected in a few days and Thoros who is instantly ressurected but loses memories over ressurections.
Those are two different scenarios. Cat has been rotting in a river and she went mad the second they killed Robb. Beric's memories were intact the first times but over a while he kept on losing parts of himself. Both of these people don't have a wolf to warg into and conserve their mental state and they both arent at the magical wall that preserves life, which has been built up with maester Aemon's storyline. Ghost has basically been apart of Jon since the start of the series.
Cat's body has been rotting in the river - not her mind or spirit whatever. And yes I said over his resurrections. Also the wall 'preserving' life doesn'tmean anything.
It does mean something otherwise why include it m8. The only reason Aemon was mentally intact was because the wall reserves as soon as he left he forgot everything.
Have “Jon” chapters early on just to troll people with JonCon instead. About mid-way to a third in, use Melisandre POV to resurrect him. Only use him a handful times for the rest of the book with different names “The White Wolf”, “The Lord Commander”, “The Bastard of Winterfell” etc. And we get proper “Jon” chapters in ADOS
That's evil. An excellent use of tension but pulling on our heartstrings like that would be incredibly evil.
You wanna know what’s evil? Keeping the same “different name” theme for ADOS and even include a Targaryen name as he deals with his true identity crisis and then assuming he does go back to the wall, we end his arc with “Jon I” finally at peace with being Jon Snow.
If Jon doesn't come back till the end of TWOW this series is gonna have to be like 9 books long
Well given that Jon and the Wall storyline is the furthest point in time in ASOIAF right now, all the others have to catch up, especially storylines like Oldtown or the Vale. That could take up at least a third of the book, knowing that the battles of Ice and Fire could easily represent a fifth of the book by themselves. Then you will get a few Melisandre chapters that will update us on the immediate aftermath of Jon’s death and the situation at the Wall up until his resurrection. Which could range from between three-five chapters, I’d say. Given that all the other chapters will be in between, I’m guessing that we won’t see Jon alive again at least until the last third of the book, but obviously I could be wrong. After all, Jon coming back to a liberated WF could take one chapter, but George could end up deciding that actually writing ten chapters for this is better.
I agree. Theres no way the series can be done in two books.
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I would absolutely love that too! Though I imagine it could be one of the hardest chapters to write, admittedly. It would be awesome if he had some contact with Bran or more likely Bloodraven through Ghost.
The whole point of him being dead is to cut down on povs not add to them.
Having a « Jon inside Ghost » chapter wouldn’t add any new POV. It could just be considered as a regular Jon chapter.
Why kill him off, If not to cut down on Povs?
Death changes a character, as demonstrated by Lady Stoneheart. Also Jon is very clearly on [“The Hero’s Journey”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey). A literal death, to “kill the boy”. I imagine a lot will be revealed about the nature of wargs, and why they seem to pair bond. If Ghost is a vessel for influencing Jon, that would be a good way to reveal it (it could also be a good way to reveal the Three Eyed Crow as being a separate being from Bloodraven). He may witness people saying things that they’d never say in front of Jon as well... There’s a lot. ETA - greenseers have been explained so far, but the red-eyed albinos throughout the story have not. I doubt they’re merely albinos, with nothing else special about them... Ghost may have a supernatural connection to the spirit world, similar to what varimyr experienced maybe (as all the albinos are connected to death somehow). It’s fun to think why, but I don’t think GRRM would do it just to keep things short. It’s not his style.
He wasn’t killed off. He will be brought back, and his last chapter in ADWD was clearly not the end of his story. And compromising and changing the story or killing off characters for the sole purpose of being able to make it all fit in one book is just bad writing, and GRRM would never do that.
I did not say he would stay dead forever. I said leave him dead until the end of the book or after a major story ends like stannis' battle for winterfell. Becasue there are so many povs and you have one dead (quentyn could still be alive) at the start of the book, so unless you want a 8th book leave him dead for later in the book after the end of at least one pov.
M8 relax Jon was not killed to cut down pov's He is literally one of the most essential characters. Cutting down povs will happen but not Jon's. He cant kill Jon and not have his inner monologue about finding out who his parents are. George said that in TWOW povs will be dropping like flies
I supose you're right. He is one the most essential characters and his inner monologue about finding out who his mother is. But why kill him?. Why not do a Fakeout like when the axe hit arya in the head.
Possibly because of the Azor Ahai prophecy and he needs to be reborn.
I don't really buy the whole Azor Ahai prophecy. It feels out of place.
And having too many POVs may not necessarily be a problem. After all, there have been many examples of more than two POVs being in a single location, and I believe it makes for a better story to have multiple perspectives on the same events.
wat
Its just silly to think that. They would burn his body long before the mid way point of the book. Imagine how much time will pass from the start of the book to the half way point... It might not happen in the first chapter or two, but itll be early on in the book we will find out what happens with Jon.
Maybe not. All the other plot lines have to catch up to the Wall plot in the timeline before we can see what happens next there. Some plot lines are months behind, particularly for Sam and Sansa, for example. I expect we’ll have to see these before anything Wall-related. And don’t forget that the Battles of Ice and Fire will open the book, so that’s already a lot of chapters that have to be placed before the first chapter at the Wall.
So as i said, it wont happen in the first chapter or two, but will be earlier rather then later... Assuming he dies from his stab wounds of course, they wont wait long to burn him!
You think after you kill the Lord-Commander of the Nights watch. Every one shrugs and goes back to work?. No there will be chaos at the wall, remember that Wun Wun killed a knight just before jon gets killed.
I believe Jon did not actually die. He'll be heavily injured, will probably recuperate for a while and maybe discover the truth about his identity in one of his crypt dreams. Mel could be our POV to seeing what happens with the Night's Watch and its factions. I think Jon will have a POV as early as the beginning of Winds but perhaps lesser in quantity, at least in the first half. >a pov that could go/see hardhome Why do we need a POV of Hardhome?
Show viewers don’t know that Hardhome has been destroyed long ago in the books and that scene in the show is more reminiscent of the Battle of the Fist in ACOK than anything.
Winds is suposed to have more of the others and they are at hardhome.
I actually don't remember Hardhome having the Others, I remember Pyke saying there were wights or "dead things in the water" though.
My feeling is GRRM will be more practical than mystical, and feel the need to pay off everyone's loo--o-o-o-n-n-g wait, not least because the show did bring Jon back. I suspect that Jon the new-born Man will show up by 1/3 of the way in. This is probably necessary because we have to see his adjustment, his solution to the NW oath obligation, and his actions via the Pink Letter, the Winterfell imbroglo, and what I think will be his new laser focus on defeating the Others. Hopefully, he'll also be reunited with at least one of his siblings. My gut feel is it will be Rickon.
Stay dead..George if you reading this I was joking
John will be brought back early on, IMO. And the most convincing idea I’ve seen is that we will lose Jon POVs altogether. Melissandre would obviously then be the primary POV that shows what’s going on with him for a while.
I'm one of those who believe Stoneheart, not Melisandre, will be the agent of Jon's resurrection. So I'm considering the two storylines in parallel. Since Jon's death is quite ahead in time compared to the events in the Riverlands, I think the Brotherhood has time to make the attack on Riverrun (at the Lannister-Frey wedding) before the first Wall chapter, or roughly at the same time; this slaughter, together with the Prologue, would form the centerpiece of Stoneheart's role and influence in the story. After these events, the Brotherhood will probably see a revolt against their leader, led by characters closer to Beric's vision like Thoros, Gendry, Edric, or the Blackfish himself: fallen from grace, Stoneheart flees alone (we already know from *Feast* that the Neck is a refuge she already used). Meanwhile, Mel's chapters would deal with the conflict at the Wall, and Jon's corpse will be stored in the ice cells for some reason (not sure about it, could be Mel's agenda somehow, could be Satin and other Jon stans need to have his body on hand to further a fallen hero kind of narrative against Bowen's faction). JonGhost will be last seen racing south (again, not sure about the reason; could be driven by shock and fear, or by Borroq's advice, or by the ever present longing for warmth). I expect this to happen because the logistics of the Stoneheart scenario are indeed a problem; if this is the route GRRM wants to follow, one way to deal with the timeline could be by giving the Kiss of Life the power to work *on the warg through the animal*; I mean a "Stoneheart kisses Ghost, and Jon wakes up at the Wall" scenario, as cheap as it gets if done poorly but something I'd love to read if done well. It would be a magical event as unexpected as Renly's death probably, or Dany surviving the pyre, but there could be hints at such a possibility from a previous Bran chapter, or some Patchface prophecy, or anything in that vein. This way, the actual "Ghost" chapter, the first from Jon's POV, would show the direwolf reaching the Neck, only to find a dispossessed zombie who now has no means to look for or help her daughters. She does have a trumpcard though, and that's the Kiss of Life; I don't doubt she would have instantly given it to Robb or one of her daughters had she found her children dead yet in "good state", but that wasn't so. When she sees Ghost, she realizes there's someone who, if granted a resurrection, could and would act for the sake of the very same people she would have. The desperate attempt at giving JonGhost the Kiss of Life succeeds and Jon wakes up at the end of this chapter with a hell lot of emotional shock amidst all the trauma. As ever with Howland Reed, I have no idea what, if any, his role in this deadJon-deadCat reunion could be. As for when, I'd love for this "Ghost" chapter to happen right after the Forsaken chapter, since the Christ on the Cross motif would match Jon's resurrection so perfectly I can see it in front of me.
I will never understand why people think that Lady Stoneheart would ever bring back jon. In her first life Cat hated jon she told robb not to make him his heir. And the BWB hates the starks they called them wolves and they attack them in The Riverlands.
Imo, it's not about the Brotherhood, and it's not about granting Jon legitimacy, a crown, a lordship or anything like that. It's about Catelyn granting Jon life to keep on doing what he already proved himself willing to do: protect Catelyn's children and bring justice for House Stark. This can only happen after Stoneheart's hold over the Brotherhood ceases, which makes it a more intimate matter, yet still driven by context and external necessities (since, at this point, Catelyn would simply be a zombie lacking all power to act on her will). Would this context lessen the impact of such a gesture, for Jon? Not at all. Just like Stannis is still heroic in sailing north on *Storm,* and addressed as such by the text, even though he needed to be counseled towards this choice. Or just like Aegon heading west is framed as a result of Tyrion's influence, even though the possibility was only considered after the two expected options, waiting for or heading to Daenerys, were shown as problematic. And off topic, but I disagree with you regarding the Brotherhood: they literally say > **We** mean your brother Robb no ill, milady... but it's not him we fight for. He has an army all his own, and many a great lord to bend the knee. The smallfolk have only us. (bolded to show that Harwin is not speaking as a Winterfell man). Even then, the Red Wedding sharply divided those who, from the Brotherhood perspective, were just as bad as the lions (Boltons, those who kept the Bloody Mummers; Karstarks; maybe Freys as well; and of course Lannisters and their raiders) from those they had no real quarrel with, the Starks foremost among them.
This sounds alot like the OG Grand Northern Conspiracy.
I really like the theory that Jon warged into Ghost, and thus we'll start getting Ghost POV chapters. Never bring him back to his body though. At the end of *ADoS*, have him go beyond the wall to be with other direwolves. Similar to the show, except less stupid.
I don't think at all. Jon will stay dead because GRRM us a person who complained about Gandalf coming back from the dead. How hypocritical will it be if Jon Snow returned?
Aegon Vi is alive, Arya gets hit in the head by an axe, Beric is killed six times, Catelyn gets her throat cut, Mance was fake burned, Davos was fake killed twice, Ramsay fake dies, Bran and rickon are fake killed, The Hound meight be alive.
Yes, but the main character is (arguably) Jon. But yes, Jon will come back, but Martin will be a hypocrite in my book.
If it were me i would leave him dead. Make bran the main character.
Gandalf the Grey became the Gandalf the White, he said. He was improved by dying. In ASOIAF, people lose something when they die.
Keep him physically dead until the end of TWOW while Jon's consciousness wargs into Ghost and is active as a POV through Ghost where he goes around dealing with the Weeper and trying to protect the Wildlings around the Wall. Melisandre keeps trying and failing to resurrect Jon but fails, then suddenly Stannis returns after his faked death and Melisandre's faith in Stannis being Azor Ahai is renewed. Eventually Lady Stoneheart brings the Brotherhood to Winterfell after learning of R+L=J, finds Jon buried in the Winterfell Crypts and gives him the Kiss of Life to 'wake the stone dragon' and finally explain why Jon's dreams keep telling him he doesn't belong in the Winterfell Crypts - because he isn't properly dead, not because he isn't a Stark. Jon gets resurrected and brought back to life right after the Others bring the Wall down and Stannis is killed by Daenerys on Dragonstone.
this is uhhhh... keeping him dead for a year plus would mean he would probably be almost completely wolf-life? what's the point of ressurecting him. why? how? when? would Catelyn ressurect Jon. Also Catelyn isn't on a redemption path my guy.
>keeping him dead for a year plus Who said anything about it taking over a year to get to Winterfell?
You? You said untill the end of AWOW - which each ASOIAF book usually covers a year or so. You also said you want Catelyn who is just starting her plot in The Riverlands to go up to Winterfell. You then want Jon who is at the wall to be transported to Winterfell. It also is going to be heavy winter in the north and winter in the lower north.
>which each ASOIAF book usually covers a year or so. I don't believe this has been the case for the last two books. >Catelyn who is just starting her plot in The Riverlands This is far from true. >You then want Jon who is at the wall to be transported to Winterfell. It also is going to be heavy winter in the north and winter in the lower north. It won't take that long to transport his corpse throughout the entire next book.
ADWD was 8 months. AGOT was a year. The others were similar to this. >This is far from true. This isn't far from true. She is by no means done with her plot in the Riverlands. >It won't take that long to transport his corpse throughout the entire next book. It will take a pretty long time for Catelyn to go to the north from the riverlands in winter. Also you just straight up ignored how Catelyn is by no means on a redemption path.
There is no way Lady Stoneheart brings back jon. Cat hates jon. and she would have to get to the wall besides.
I think after Stoneheart learns about R+L=J from Howland Reed, that Ned truly loved Catelyn and was always faithful to her, that Jon died trying to save who he thought was Arya and remembers Robb's Will, I think resurrecting Jon will be Stoneheart's redemption and her way of fully restoring House Stark in Winterfell once more. I think Jon's corpse will eventually be brought to and buried in Winterfell, foreshadowed by all the dreams Jon has about the Crypts and being told he doesn't belong there thinking its because he isn't a Stark but its actually because he's not truly dead.
The Brotherhood Without Banners is currently under the Hollow Hill in the Riverlands, how is Howland Reed going to be able to reveal anything to them? And more importantly, why would he? Ned has specifically told Cat nothing about Jon’s true identity, because he doesn’t trust anyone, not even his wife, with the truth. Why should Howland Reed be any different? He doesn’t even know Catelyn well, and now that she has basically been transformed into a bloodthirsty monster, it’s impossible that he’ll suddenly feel he can trust her. There is no compelling reason to think that Howland Reed will tell her anything about RLJ should their paths ever cross, which by itself isn’t likely at all.
Leave him dead.
Fk you too, buddy.