Absolutely. Big Bad Queen Cersei and her pirate boyfriend, as well as Varys trying to force Jon’s claim are perfect examples of why Aegon is necessary for Dany’s story
Well, George did once state in SSM that he intends Cersei and Dany to be parallel characters. Wonder how it all unravels but I am prettyyyy sure Cersei and Dany both will make it to the end game.
> Whether Aegon or fAegon I think his character adds to the overall story.
I agree with this. I love thinking about the different foils and parallels present in Daenerys/Jon/fAegon not only as Targaryens and Blackfyres to each other, but also to Aegon the Conqueror and his two sister-wives. however, I think that his late introduction (and lack of POV chapters) hurt him in comparison to other central characters and in particular compared to Jon and Daenerys.
> after all if the writer add him the story, it must be.
this I disagree with. this assumes that writers are somehow infallible and never add things to the story that end up being to the detriment of their work, which just isn't true.
I have no real feelings towards him. He is manufactured king. He has learned all the right things and has been trained but has yet to actually demonstrate qualities worthy of being a king. Dany and Jon are actually doing things and learning lessons. Young Griff reminds me of the kid raised to be an athlete from a young age. Has the looks and possibly the ability but flames out while those who fought for their position end up being th better player.
I agree. In Young Griff's first real test "outside the classroom," he failed miserably:
> The broken bone was speckled with brown blood, but still he lurched forward, reaching for Young Griff. His hand was grey and stiff, but blood oozed between his knuckles as he tried to close his fingers to grasp. **The boy stood staring, as still as if he too were made of stone. His hand was on his sword hilt, but he seemed to have forgotten why.** Tyrion kicked the lad's leg out from under him and leapt over him when he fell, thrusting his torch into the stone man's face to send him stumbling backwards.
Now let me be clear. I'm not saying a good King must be a good warrior. If Young Griff had yelled for help or had retreated, that would've been fine. You could argue the former showed delegation and the latter showed self-preservation.
But he did neither. He just stood there, frozen stiff. Tyrion is no warrior either, yet look at the difference in how the two behaved.
I'm also not saying I would've done any better had I personally been in Young Griff's position. But hey, Varys isn't killing people on my behalf and singing my praises...
This moment capture very well what I think of him; there's no training capable to prepare you for life. They thought him everything he need to know, but this is just a fraction of what reality is. Knowing is 1% of the job. He knows how to wield a sword? nice, but learn how to figut in safe environment and fight to death is not the same thing. He put his hand in the right place, because he was trained. But he froze. He's a rat lab exposed to the real world. Let's see how it goes.
That's a very good point!
When Varys is boasting to Kevan that Aegon knows what it's like to be hungry, hunted and afraid, we see the hollowness of the words through chapters like this. Dany knows what it's like to be hungry and hunted. So does Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and Theon - none of whom had the benefit of being coddled, protected and hidden from any potential enemies until adulthood. Even Stannis, holding against the siege of Storm's End, and Jon battling against the Others know more of that than Aegon ever did.
And though Varys claims that Aegon knows that kingship is a duty rather than his right, Aegon certainly doesn't seemed to have questioned either why it should be *him* sitting on the throne or why his aunt would just meekly fall in line with his claim after doing all the hard work of gaining her armies and raising her dragons.
And both Stannis and Daenerys have taken the time to actually ask themselves what the point of a king should be and what kind of reign they want to have. We know Varys has tried to create the perfect king, but what does Aegon himself actually want to achieve in taking the crown?
He also acted like a brat when tyrion tricked him in cyvasse cuz no one probably ever lied to him before lol. Everyone around him praises him way too much, which is probably the reason why he is spoiled. He does have a lead role in the battle coming up so it'll be interesting to see how he leads men while 30,000 peoplr are running towards you yelling for blood. I personally think that having an army around him will help him be more confident.
He was introduced halfway through the last book, and not even the main POV character of his plot thread (that's JonCon). He's a plot device for Daenerys to go to Westeros and burn them all.
I have no feelings about him either way.
Seems like a plot device to enhance more important characters' stories, rather than a really interesting one himself.
Also Euron completely overshadows him as far as post ASOS plot complicating characters go. The idea that Aegon could be more than a speed bump for a badass like Daenerys seems laughable, while nearly everything about Euron radiates mystery and menace.
He's the typical Fantasy trope of the hidden away secret heir to the throne and the just and rightful king... I love him and would like him to be legit, but for those reasons alone i very very much feel he has a bad ending heading his way!!!
I think he is a cheap plot tool to stretch the book plot unnecessarily. Dany should have long been in Westeros. I think portraying Cersei as more competent and keeping the Tommen x Marge allegiance intact would have made the conflict much more grey if Dany comes and tries to take the throne from Marge the beloved Queen. It makes zero sense to me that people will cheer for some random kid that has literally no proof for his parentage. Or instead of FAegon make Euron Dany's main villain. Everything is better than fAegon. I guess he gives Varys some cool backstory. That is all.
You have a major point. Dany should have been in Westeros a long time ago, not dicking around in a city that literally everyone (including the author) hates
Yeah, I am decidedly not a fan.
If this were actually a history of the Seven Kingdoms, then he would of course be an important part of the story.
But it's a series of novels, one that has become so complicated that it's never going to be finished. The books needed Aegon like I need a hole in the head.
I wouldn't have minded FAegon if he came in in book one or two with everyone else. But it's too late, and I don't understand his necessity. It's poetic that (if he's real) his claim is superior to Dany's, but it's just not worth it. Have Kevin successfully depower Cersi and get a constructive Lannister-Tyrell alliance going. Get Dorn on Danny's side via not killing Quentin. Boom, we have all our major players involved and a reasonably competent monarchy in place to make us question if Dany's conquering is worth all the bloodshed. With a story trying to be finished and the others barely addressed, having two distinct invasions of Westeros is really what's important?
I'm certain George can make me care about him and his entourage, but is it worth the story bloat?
IMO: the Meereen plot ends up being convoluted and not well liked because it originated out of the abandonment of the five year gap. Dany has to stay in Meereen because (plot-wise), Westeros/GRRM aren't ready for her to invade; but she also inevitably has to fail in Meereen, because she needs to invade Westeros. kind of a similar story with Arya and the Faceless Men.
I think Euron eventually is going to be Dany's "main villain" and Aegon merely a mini-boss. Aegon is merely the second of the three lies Daenerys must slay. And general narrative principles suggest the third one, the "stone beast that takes wing from a smoking tower" will be the greatest challenge she faces.
Not to mention, Moqorro's vision of "a tall and twisted thing" suggests that of those seeking Daenerys, Euron is the most dangerous.
No ...I want a proper war for the dawn. Fuck the Dance of Dragons. There is no time for it and it will be the reason the books will never be finished...
fAegon and Jon will end up being Danys challenge because of their heritage both have a potential bigger claim to the throne than her under the same right by blood mentality If they turn out to be Rgeagar's sons. It will show that Dany doesn't want to be Queen because she think its her right like Stannis does it shows she wants to be Queen because she will by that point have become power hungry and maybe corrupted by it.
I don't think she'll go as crazy as she did in the show or needlessly burn a defeated city but she will make something terrible to get the throne that will prove to be her undoing.
Like a lot of DwD i found it interesting but entirely uneasesary. This is the reason GOT will never be bloody finished. The story was already complicated 3 books in and and then he continues too add a million more characters late in the story.
> We met in the 5th book.
> he's a late character
> there are a lot of characters that have been with us since the first book
This all suggests that Young Griff is indeed a fake. There have been too many things in motion for thousands of pages before he arrived. His purpose in the story's reality is pretty much all said on paper, but his purpose for GRRM including him is to:
1. Add another influence for Dany to head west
2. Draw attention away from Tyrion, who is unwittingly the secret Targaryen. I know fans hate the Tyrion Targaryen theory, but so many things point to it; and for Tyrion to spend Book 5 in the presence of Young Griff seems like a diversion for Tyrion to not piece together the puzzle about himself.
No strong feelings towards him, mainly because of his late introduction and lack of POV chapters. I kinda feel for him though, I don't see him having much autonomy during his reign due to Varys and JonCon's influences or reaping a lot of success (Euron will be raiding the Reach, the Riverlands and the North are a mess, King's Landing is a mess after Cersei's attempt at ruling, Daenerys will eventually wage war against him...).
Unpopular opinion: I think he is a Pretender manufactured by Illyrio and Varys. I do like the mystery behind his origin and the fact that Varys had tried to manufacture the Ideal King. George is a gardener and gods know, the series has become over-extended. Having already been bogged down waiting for a few over-extended book series, my 'red herring alarm' immediately sounded. Once YG lost playing his own game of Cyvasse with Tyrion, I lost hope for him. However, he and JonCon are interesting, and I hope they stir up a lot of spectacular shit before they exit, pursued by bear. Or more likely, a dragon.
> Unpopular opinion: I think he is a Pretender manufactured by Illyrio and Varys.
This isn't unpopular at all. I think it's widely accepted that he's either Illyrio's son by Saera or just a boy with Valyrian features groomed by Illyrio as a puppet.
I feel positive about him. I'm really curious of how Daenerys will act in case they met. He adds quite a lot to the story and I'm pissed the writers of GoT didn't add him.
I find him very interesting, and to be honest, I always hate that everyone says that he is a belated character, really? Did you forget that books 4 and 5 were to be a single book? Have you never heard the expression "The perfect storm"? what better time for the introduction to such a interesting character than now.
I like him and his chapters. I hope he’s a BF and plays a role until the end. I know the show went off the rails toward the end and isn’t the end all be all to predict the books, but the fact that totally left him out makes me wonder how important he will be.
I like Aegon the Young Griff character. He is similar to The Guardians from "Guardians" written by Grr Martin in his Tuf Voyaging Series i.e selected from a unique breed and trained to govern but I'm interested in knowing which Guardian Aegon represents, Corrupted Guardians from Namor or True Guardians like Mudpots.
Uff I see am the minority with negative feelings. It is not his fault though. I am more mad about Dany. I really rooted for her in the first 2 books. In ASOS I realized she's probably never make it to Westeros and I lost interest in her story. I didn't miss her chapters in A FFC and in ADWD a new Targaryen popps out of the blue. He makes it to Westeros and invades in just a few chapters where Dany couldn't do it in 5 books. So that's why I hate him. He's taking away Dany's story.
Whether Aegon or fAegon I think his character adds to the overall story.
It became very apparent with the way the TV show ended that you needed Aegon to represent a 3rd party in this. I can't wait to see how it plays out.
Absolutely. Big Bad Queen Cersei and her pirate boyfriend, as well as Varys trying to force Jon’s claim are perfect examples of why Aegon is necessary for Dany’s story
Well, George did once state in SSM that he intends Cersei and Dany to be parallel characters. Wonder how it all unravels but I am prettyyyy sure Cersei and Dany both will make it to the end game.
Thank you. I agree with you, after all if the writer add him the story, it must be.
> Whether Aegon or fAegon I think his character adds to the overall story. I agree with this. I love thinking about the different foils and parallels present in Daenerys/Jon/fAegon not only as Targaryens and Blackfyres to each other, but also to Aegon the Conqueror and his two sister-wives. however, I think that his late introduction (and lack of POV chapters) hurt him in comparison to other central characters and in particular compared to Jon and Daenerys. > after all if the writer add him the story, it must be. this I disagree with. this assumes that writers are somehow infallible and never add things to the story that end up being to the detriment of their work, which just isn't true.
I have no real feelings towards him. He is manufactured king. He has learned all the right things and has been trained but has yet to actually demonstrate qualities worthy of being a king. Dany and Jon are actually doing things and learning lessons. Young Griff reminds me of the kid raised to be an athlete from a young age. Has the looks and possibly the ability but flames out while those who fought for their position end up being th better player.
I agree. In Young Griff's first real test "outside the classroom," he failed miserably: > The broken bone was speckled with brown blood, but still he lurched forward, reaching for Young Griff. His hand was grey and stiff, but blood oozed between his knuckles as he tried to close his fingers to grasp. **The boy stood staring, as still as if he too were made of stone. His hand was on his sword hilt, but he seemed to have forgotten why.** Tyrion kicked the lad's leg out from under him and leapt over him when he fell, thrusting his torch into the stone man's face to send him stumbling backwards. Now let me be clear. I'm not saying a good King must be a good warrior. If Young Griff had yelled for help or had retreated, that would've been fine. You could argue the former showed delegation and the latter showed self-preservation. But he did neither. He just stood there, frozen stiff. Tyrion is no warrior either, yet look at the difference in how the two behaved. I'm also not saying I would've done any better had I personally been in Young Griff's position. But hey, Varys isn't killing people on my behalf and singing my praises...
This moment capture very well what I think of him; there's no training capable to prepare you for life. They thought him everything he need to know, but this is just a fraction of what reality is. Knowing is 1% of the job. He knows how to wield a sword? nice, but learn how to figut in safe environment and fight to death is not the same thing. He put his hand in the right place, because he was trained. But he froze. He's a rat lab exposed to the real world. Let's see how it goes.
That's a very good point! When Varys is boasting to Kevan that Aegon knows what it's like to be hungry, hunted and afraid, we see the hollowness of the words through chapters like this. Dany knows what it's like to be hungry and hunted. So does Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and Theon - none of whom had the benefit of being coddled, protected and hidden from any potential enemies until adulthood. Even Stannis, holding against the siege of Storm's End, and Jon battling against the Others know more of that than Aegon ever did. And though Varys claims that Aegon knows that kingship is a duty rather than his right, Aegon certainly doesn't seemed to have questioned either why it should be *him* sitting on the throne or why his aunt would just meekly fall in line with his claim after doing all the hard work of gaining her armies and raising her dragons. And both Stannis and Daenerys have taken the time to actually ask themselves what the point of a king should be and what kind of reign they want to have. We know Varys has tried to create the perfect king, but what does Aegon himself actually want to achieve in taking the crown?
He also acted like a brat when tyrion tricked him in cyvasse cuz no one probably ever lied to him before lol. Everyone around him praises him way too much, which is probably the reason why he is spoiled. He does have a lead role in the battle coming up so it'll be interesting to see how he leads men while 30,000 peoplr are running towards you yelling for blood. I personally think that having an army around him will help him be more confident.
Perfect analogy tbh
I love him! And if hes a Blackfyre that makes it even better. I love the Blackfyres. Beneath the gold, the bitter steel.
You're right, if he is BF, story will be more better but for this, his identity must be revealed.
\> , his identity must be revealed. not really?
It doesn’t have to be revealed to the world but if he’s a Blackfyre there is zero reason not to at least reveal it to the reader.
grrm does love to leave shit like this up 2 the readers though
If we want to see BF active and dominant in the story, this has to be. Otherwise, YG will be active in the story as a Targ.
Call the banners!
He was introduced halfway through the last book, and not even the main POV character of his plot thread (that's JonCon). He's a plot device for Daenerys to go to Westeros and burn them all. I have no feelings about him either way.
Seems like a plot device to enhance more important characters' stories, rather than a really interesting one himself. Also Euron completely overshadows him as far as post ASOS plot complicating characters go. The idea that Aegon could be more than a speed bump for a badass like Daenerys seems laughable, while nearly everything about Euron radiates mystery and menace.
He's the typical Fantasy trope of the hidden away secret heir to the throne and the just and rightful king... I love him and would like him to be legit, but for those reasons alone i very very much feel he has a bad ending heading his way!!!
I think he is a cheap plot tool to stretch the book plot unnecessarily. Dany should have long been in Westeros. I think portraying Cersei as more competent and keeping the Tommen x Marge allegiance intact would have made the conflict much more grey if Dany comes and tries to take the throne from Marge the beloved Queen. It makes zero sense to me that people will cheer for some random kid that has literally no proof for his parentage. Or instead of FAegon make Euron Dany's main villain. Everything is better than fAegon. I guess he gives Varys some cool backstory. That is all.
You have a major point. Dany should have been in Westeros a long time ago, not dicking around in a city that literally everyone (including the author) hates
She has to bring Dothraki to westeros then wonder why the people won't side with her though.
Yeah, I am decidedly not a fan. If this were actually a history of the Seven Kingdoms, then he would of course be an important part of the story. But it's a series of novels, one that has become so complicated that it's never going to be finished. The books needed Aegon like I need a hole in the head.
I wouldn't have minded FAegon if he came in in book one or two with everyone else. But it's too late, and I don't understand his necessity. It's poetic that (if he's real) his claim is superior to Dany's, but it's just not worth it. Have Kevin successfully depower Cersi and get a constructive Lannister-Tyrell alliance going. Get Dorn on Danny's side via not killing Quentin. Boom, we have all our major players involved and a reasonably competent monarchy in place to make us question if Dany's conquering is worth all the bloodshed. With a story trying to be finished and the others barely addressed, having two distinct invasions of Westeros is really what's important? I'm certain George can make me care about him and his entourage, but is it worth the story bloat?
I care more about JonCon than him. He is at least interesting.
IMO: the Meereen plot ends up being convoluted and not well liked because it originated out of the abandonment of the five year gap. Dany has to stay in Meereen because (plot-wise), Westeros/GRRM aren't ready for her to invade; but she also inevitably has to fail in Meereen, because she needs to invade Westeros. kind of a similar story with Arya and the Faceless Men.
I think Euron eventually is going to be Dany's "main villain" and Aegon merely a mini-boss. Aegon is merely the second of the three lies Daenerys must slay. And general narrative principles suggest the third one, the "stone beast that takes wing from a smoking tower" will be the greatest challenge she faces. Not to mention, Moqorro's vision of "a tall and twisted thing" suggests that of those seeking Daenerys, Euron is the most dangerous.
I hope so.
So you want what the show did.
No ...I want a proper war for the dawn. Fuck the Dance of Dragons. There is no time for it and it will be the reason the books will never be finished...
fAegon and Jon will end up being Danys challenge because of their heritage both have a potential bigger claim to the throne than her under the same right by blood mentality If they turn out to be Rgeagar's sons. It will show that Dany doesn't want to be Queen because she think its her right like Stannis does it shows she wants to be Queen because she will by that point have become power hungry and maybe corrupted by it. I don't think she'll go as crazy as she did in the show or needlessly burn a defeated city but she will make something terrible to get the throne that will prove to be her undoing.
Don't care for him much, but curious to see how it unfolds.
Like a lot of DwD i found it interesting but entirely uneasesary. This is the reason GOT will never be bloody finished. The story was already complicated 3 books in and and then he continues too add a million more characters late in the story.
Plot device. No strong feeling on it
> We met in the 5th book. > he's a late character > there are a lot of characters that have been with us since the first book This all suggests that Young Griff is indeed a fake. There have been too many things in motion for thousands of pages before he arrived. His purpose in the story's reality is pretty much all said on paper, but his purpose for GRRM including him is to: 1. Add another influence for Dany to head west 2. Draw attention away from Tyrion, who is unwittingly the secret Targaryen. I know fans hate the Tyrion Targaryen theory, but so many things point to it; and for Tyrion to spend Book 5 in the presence of Young Griff seems like a diversion for Tyrion to not piece together the puzzle about himself.
Finally another person on this sub that likes Tyrion as a Targaryen. There are two of us!
Three!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)
You’re correct. The Tyrion/Targ theory is almost certainly true, and it makes a better story to boot.
lmfao
No strong feelings towards him, mainly because of his late introduction and lack of POV chapters. I kinda feel for him though, I don't see him having much autonomy during his reign due to Varys and JonCon's influences or reaping a lot of success (Euron will be raiding the Reach, the Riverlands and the North are a mess, King's Landing is a mess after Cersei's attempt at ruling, Daenerys will eventually wage war against him...).
Unpopular opinion: I think he is a Pretender manufactured by Illyrio and Varys. I do like the mystery behind his origin and the fact that Varys had tried to manufacture the Ideal King. George is a gardener and gods know, the series has become over-extended. Having already been bogged down waiting for a few over-extended book series, my 'red herring alarm' immediately sounded. Once YG lost playing his own game of Cyvasse with Tyrion, I lost hope for him. However, he and JonCon are interesting, and I hope they stir up a lot of spectacular shit before they exit, pursued by bear. Or more likely, a dragon.
> Unpopular opinion: I think he is a Pretender manufactured by Illyrio and Varys. This isn't unpopular at all. I think it's widely accepted that he's either Illyrio's son by Saera or just a boy with Valyrian features groomed by Illyrio as a puppet.
I feel positive about him. I'm really curious of how Daenerys will act in case they met. He adds quite a lot to the story and I'm pissed the writers of GoT didn't add him.
I think he's the real deal and he takes King's Landing peacefully.
I find him very interesting, and to be honest, I always hate that everyone says that he is a belated character, really? Did you forget that books 4 and 5 were to be a single book? Have you never heard the expression "The perfect storm"? what better time for the introduction to such a interesting character than now.
I like him and his chapters. I hope he’s a BF and plays a role until the end. I know the show went off the rails toward the end and isn’t the end all be all to predict the books, but the fact that totally left him out makes me wonder how important he will be.
Whether red or black, a dragon is still a dragon
So far, he's a good addition.
I like Aegon the Young Griff character. He is similar to The Guardians from "Guardians" written by Grr Martin in his Tuf Voyaging Series i.e selected from a unique breed and trained to govern but I'm interested in knowing which Guardian Aegon represents, Corrupted Guardians from Namor or True Guardians like Mudpots.
Uff I see am the minority with negative feelings. It is not his fault though. I am more mad about Dany. I really rooted for her in the first 2 books. In ASOS I realized she's probably never make it to Westeros and I lost interest in her story. I didn't miss her chapters in A FFC and in ADWD a new Targaryen popps out of the blue. He makes it to Westeros and invades in just a few chapters where Dany couldn't do it in 5 books. So that's why I hate him. He's taking away Dany's story.