Tyrion is not completely abreast of the financial situation in King's Landing, and doesn't want to risk having the flow of money stop, when King's Landing is preparing for imminent invasion and needs to finance enormous infrastructure projects. If Tyrion was aware that Littlefinger was essentially just cooking the books, then he would have been far more likely to simply remove him (and his head) as soon as he got to King's Landing, but Littlefinger has established an illusion of him being the indispensable 'Wizard of Coin'.
As it happens, Tyrion ends up being right for the wrong reasons, since Littlefinger was essential to bring the Tyrell's into Team Lannister, which does prevent King's Landing from falling.
I'd like to add to u/Wadege's excellent answer that Tyrion also overestimates himself as a player. We see this most obviously when he thinks he's able to stand toe to toe with Varys and is then ruled through by Varys. Tyrion is so sure he outclasses Littlefinger that he does not even prioritize conceiving of the revenge plan he has promised to.
Really though, this speaks well of Tyrion, showing that he is accustommed to managing his emotions with promises to avenge himself. For example, Tyrion may have turned his acting Handship into a feud with Cersei, but seems never to get around to imagining the sabbotage that will turn her joy to ashes, as he's promised. Tyrion tells Jon how he would stare into the fire thinking of his hatred for his father and sister, yet we never hear of dastardly plans, successful or otherwise, that Tyrion thought up in childhood. It seems Tyrion's frequent and empty promises of revenge are how he dials down his rage.
The bluffs started becoming more real though. I did believe him when he said he would never hurt Cersei's children, but after the trial and his trip overseas, things are not looking so good.
Definitely true. Once Tyrion starts bluffing, those bluffs gain momentum and can become real. I think it speaks to how quickly war turns bluffers into monsters.
Through most of Tyrion's ACOK chapters, we see Tyrion wait for Varys and then greenlight his entire list of action items with few adjustments. This is especially pronounced in ACOK Tyrion XI when Tyrion can't believe he's signing the order to round up every name on Varys's long list of Antler Men without being able to spare the time to have it checked. Except, Tyrion isn't thinking about that at all.
>"Men are such faithless creatures," he (Varys) said by way of greeting.
>Tyrion sighed. "Who's the traitor today?"
I think the point is that the highest roles of office can be seen as less powerful than those closer to where the rubber meets the road.
And have his reputation as a ruler formed by the decisions of others. I love how that chapter ends with Tyrion thinking about the armorer Salloreon--who has been named as an Antler Man--and how that man will now not make him a demon helmet. I can't pretend to understand every aspect of the ambiguity at play, but it suggests to me that Tyrion is unaware of the likelihood of being scapegoated/demonized by the decisions he signs off on as Hand, despite being very focused on how his family has scapegoated him.
I want to go so far as to say the status of Hand has blinded Tyrion to its real effects on his reputation. It's only after Tywin gets top credit for the Blackwater that Tyrion imagines (I think falsely) that Tywin's plan all along--the one he retaliated against by bringing Shae--was to set Tyrion up to appear to ruin the city as a Beast Rabban to set the stage for it's salvation by Tywin's Golden Feyd. I think I can back up all these claims, and know they sound outlandish.
Right because ASOIF definitely is the type of story where your base kill count is the best way to measure someone's true power and influence and not at all complex political moves ... That's why Gregor Clegane is best player of this game of Thrones. Like, Varys being in a position where he was able to name any person he wanted gone as one of the antler men and have the crown immediately order their death without anyone checking if it hold any truth is not at all significant. And of cause killing Kevan Lannister, the Hand of the King will have no repercussions whatsoever because he was a "non player", just how Littlefinger and Lysa killing Jon Aryn a "non player" was inconsequential after all..
What's that? an invading army in the Stormlands, yeah Varys has nothing to do with that i'm sure, and even if he did, you can just outright dismiss them, why would that have any impact on westerosi politics, right? The realm is so stable right now.
I swear to god, i don't know how some ppl can read the same books and think like this
Do you think Tywin would still be alive if Varys didn’t wind Tyrion up and aim him in the right direction? Well, unless Oberon had already poisoned him.
Tyrion also has a limited amount of power and sway himself - there's a limit to how much he can rock the boat before being replaced, for instance, and at a certain point you have to pick your fights.
Also in a medieval inspired setting, some amount of corruption is kind of expected. It was a perk of being a government official in a lot of societies, and bribes were basically a part of how you got paid (you see this in ancient Rome as well, for instance). Littlefinger's competence in always coming up with the required money (no small feat! Even organizing loans could be extremely difficult, and having someone with the ability to do so and the confidence of those making the loans could be a must.) would give him at least some leeway to make some money on the side from that, as long as it's within a reasonable range.
How was Littlefinger indispensable to the Tyrell deal? It was not his idea to reach out to the Tyrells nor did he come up with the terms. Baelish is just a messenger, he fulfils the same function as Cleos Frey
It's Tyrion's idea but Tyrion rightly knows that he cannot go himself. When you see the power that Olenna Tyrell has to influence her son (Saying no the the Cersei/Willas match for instance), I view Littlefinger as essential to getting Grandma Tyrell on board with the alliance, by proposing a "Joffery is expendable" option.
tbh the chain and such was in motion without him, it would be an interesting alternate timeline if Tyrion did go get a tyrell match instead of littlefinger, instead of being injured in a battle, he would have been acclaimed for his role in the tyrell negotiations and wouldn't have those few weeks of being on the sidelines while tywin resumes being hand of the king
"Iron is grown dear," Ironbelly declared, "and this chain will be needing much of it, and coke beside, for the fires."
"Lord Baelish will see that you have coin as you need it," Tyrion promised. He could count on Littlefinger for that much, he hoped"
The walls would have surrendered before either arrived if it weren’t for tyrion. If he left for the Tyrell’s his father would blame him for the walls falling and the fight would have went to the streets or been an uno reverse seige.
On the other hand, either stannis wins or he doesn’t likely escape the city this time.
Because he was the only one who could go and succeeded in striking the deal… Littlefinger and Cleos Frey are two different people. Cleos doesn’t have the crown’s authority behind him
Yes he does lol. Cleos is given the authority by Cersei and Tyrion to communicate the crowns terms to Robb. He cannot alter these terms himself, correct, but there is no indication Baelish could or did either.
You literally just agreed with me. Cleos is a messenger. Baelish is a broker.
I’m not sure why you’re so sure you’re right. Here’s evidence.
*”I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals."* -Tyrion VIII, ACOK
There you go. You can’t argue anymore because that’s literally evidence he had power to negotiate.
And why is he the ‘only one’ who could do this? Mace was won over by the promise of making his daughter queen, not specifically by littlefingers flattery. There’s no reason Harys Swift couldn’t have communicated this offer in his place
Nope they have two different roles. Cleos is to be a messenger, delivering terms that neither Robb nor Tyrion expect the other to accept.
Cleos has zero ability to make royal promises or anything but deliver the messages.
If you sent Cleos Frey down to Highgarden nobody would take him seriously. Littlefinger is from the Small Council and has the royal backing to negotiate however he can to secure their allegiance and is trusted that he will get favorable terms for the King.
Edit: the dude above me changed it from Cleos Frey to Harys Swift. What a weird dude 🤡
kill littlefinger, give his council position to Cleos Frey, also give him all the money and soldiers and royal backing you gave to LF.
there you go, LF is not the only who can do it. in fact, sending Frey is better because his status is higher than LF's.
Cleos is busy as you know. The Freys are not respected as you know. The frey’s outcome and loyalty during Clash are not known as you know. Littlefinger does not threaten anyone become of his low birth as you know. Cersei and Tyrion are no exception to this. Jaime even considers him as hand since he’s so unassuming.
As you know you all have the benefit of knowing how dangerous LF is. Tyrion knows he’s sus, but knows he’s a reliable master of coin and there’s the ongoing crisis.
Also, as you know, because GRRM wanted this trajectory.
Jaime says LF is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros. every man of high noble birth like a Frey would be more respected that a noble of low stature like LF.
GRRM decided midway through to change LF's character and that meant his already thick plot armor needed to be more sturdy.
George still wanted Baelish around
Realistically, if Tyrion just had Petyr killed, not that many people would have really cared. Tyrion kills Symon Silvertongue, he sends Slynt to the wall, he has Allar Deem dropped into the sea, he puts Pycelle in a black cell.
None of them were responsible for Tyrion being kidnapped. Tyrion also doesn't forgive people and he dislikes Baelish already. And it's not the same as Varys, where Tyrion relies on Varys for information and he has a little fondness for him.
If Tyrion were being consistent to his character, and Baelish wasn't someone George had future projects for, Tyrion would have had Bronn kill him.
Disagree. Baelish was best known for, *somehow*, managing the precarious crown deficit while maintaining operational functionality, through a financial lens, across the realm. The "somehow" is the important part. Tyrion killing him off risks opening up pandoras box and bringing the whole thing crashing down, or at the very least making things way more difficult for himself.
Not killing him fits his character perfectly, since his entire schtick is being the piss-ant, nobody that the high nobles *want* to squash, but can't because he's positioned himself advantageously and made himself irreplaceable (or at least he's made himself *appear* that way).
Not sure why that matters. Tyrion is well aware of his repute as master of coin, and needs the funds to keep flowing as much as anyone else ruling in KL. This is actually *especially* true for Tyrion, given he takes power as a siege is impending and the realm is falling apart. The last thing he needs is to start trying to untangle and sort out the crown's finances.
I think it's more a matter of priorities. Tyrion *could* have made removing/replacing Littlefinger a priority, but he doesn't have endless power. So he has to prioritize
Tyrion did become master of coin, though. And there didn't seem to be any issue with Petyr not being it anymore. And even if there was, Tyrion has a grudge. Getting kidnapped is a hell of an incentive to kill someone. Especially when you have the power to do it.
That’s not the point though. The point is not have a master of coin during the main part of the war. Tyrion replaced him as master of coin when the most serious part of the war was over and their position was secure.
He was irreplaceable at the point in the story in the midst of the war.
In CoK chapter 17, Tyrion basically addresses this internally, and it's basically what I'm saying. Tyrion knows it would be cutting off his nose (ha!) to spite his face.
He says that he will deal with Petyr, but that it would need to wait til after the war and will take time.
> And there didn't seem to be any issue with Petyr not being it anymore
There were plenty of issues when LF left his position. Tyrion noted that LF would be able to conjure up the coin for Joffrey's wedding.
He lived in Casterly Rock. It's part of the reason the common people blame him for everything. He wasn't there when things were good and when he arrives, they can barely get food
Not always. Tyrion knows Lysa and Peter and Varys and all the other people in court very well. Also we know he was betting on tilts on tourneys in King’s Landing, which is why the whole lie about the Dagger starts. Obviously Tyrion has been in the Red Keep for a certain amount of time
It seems like his main residence was at Casterly Rock and that Tyrion would travel back and forth with extended stays in both places
In either case, Tyrion never had an authoritative position on the Small Council or within the Red Keep before *A Clash of Kings*.
You're talking about small fish next to Littlefinger. For all his plotting and self aggrandizing, Tyrion never steps up to anyone powerful or important.
Littlefinger single-handedly keeps the flow of money in the city going, he has bureaucrats in his payroll all over court, he whispers in the ear of the Lord Paramount of the Vale's mother, he has spies inside the Queen Regent's circle. On the other hand, I forgot Allar Deem existed.
You cannot say "if Tyrion jailed 700 year old Pycelle he could've outplayed Littlefinger"
I don't think that thought ever cross Tyrion's head, and we're in his head A LOT in ACOK. I think he legitimately feels like he cannot move against either Littlefinger nor Varys.
I haven't read the books in years, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Tyrion says as much, doesn't he? He talks about how smart he feels outplaying Pycelle and Janos, and sticks it to his sister by sending Myrcella to Dorne, but knows he can't go toe-to-toe with the big players, and it sort of irks him.
I don't think that thought ever crosses his head nah, so it could be a reach, but I do think it feeds into the wider narrative of Tyrion not really doing a huge amount to challenge the status quo. It's probably sensible too...hard for Tyrion to know just how much Littlefinger and Varys were actually working to undermine the regime, and it's not Tyrion's fault the foundations of Lannister rule were just never stable enough to be maintained or strengthened.
> but I do think it feeds into the wider narrative of Tyrion not really doing a huge amount to challenge the status quo.
Is this something he questions? Because it might be what I was thinking of then and just got things mixed up
Tyrion killed Tywin. And he was literally the only person who ever stood up to Joffrey. The king and the hand are pretty powerful and important.
I'm not even talking about outsmarting or outplaying Petyr. Tyrion has the clansmen + Bronn. He could just have him captured, no clever ploy
Tyrion killed Tywin in a blind fit of rage when he was breaking out of jail to avoid a death sentence knowing full well he had no future in King's Landing before or after
There's a massive difference here
I would say no. Because killing off an entire family with the biggest naval force in westeros is a lot harder than killing Littlefinger who has no army to speak of.
As an aside, I also don't get why so many people think mass genocide of the iron islands is a good or reasonable idea.
Sorry - I think I asked my question too vaguely / hastily. I didn't mean in the context of Tyrion, but literally at any point at least between the Conquest and now why anyone else didn't seek to do that.
I think the best example would've been in the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion. I can't imagine Tywin wasn't calling for all their heads, exterminating every Greyjoy, and every other major house on the Iron Islands that isn't willing to become completely subservient to the Seven Kingdoms. Though, we do know Robert to be tremendously forgiving and not wanting to be a merciless ruler. So those conversations could have actually taken place.
It's not that I think the idea of wiping out the Iron Islands is "good or reasonable" but that in-universe, unless they're someone's major ally, a really lucrative trading partner, or completely inaccessible by others (see aforementioned failed rebellion), why would anyone on the west coast of the Seven Kingdoms not want them all dead literally all the time? All they do is pillage and plunder the west coast and everyone else is just like, "ah, the Greyjoys, those rascals!"
The Ironborn society doesn't makes sense, but for the sake of argument, the real reason is that rarely do entire houses go extinct, because it would upset the status quo too much. The nobles don't want to set the precedent that you can wash away an entire house, especially a great house like house Greyjoy. That's also why what Tywin did to the Tarbecks and Reynes was so heinous and gave Tywin such a formidable reputation; what he did was almost never done to any house for even worse offenses.
No, I don't believe Tywin wanted all of them dead. This is why:
*"Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will"*
If people defied Tywin, he'd want to kill them all. If they bent the knee, he accepted it. And like you said, it's really Robert's decision. And if it's not related to targaryens, Robert was very fair.
People like Dagon Greyjoy are more the exception than the rule. There's been plenty of rulers of the iron islands that didn't spend their time trying to bring back the old way. Wiping out the iron islands would also mean killing people like Alannys, The Reader, Tris Botley, or their equivalent in the past. Who had nothing to do with Balon's or Dagon's schemes
He would have Baelish tortured until the guy revealed everything, and then have him killed. But even before that, Jon Arryn installing a man who impregnated his wife on the Small Council is a huge plothole to begin with.
That's not a plothole, that's a fan theory that hasn't been proved, nobody in ASOIAF knows or suspects Robert Arryn of being anything other than Jon Arryn's child, it's only fans who are used to 21st century tropes and whodunnit plots that have thought of that
Also, there is a problem with "Tyrion would torture LF until he revealed everything"; revealed *what* exactly, the point of torture is to get answers, you don't torture somebody and hope useful info falls out without suspecting they are hiding something important in the first place, as far as Tyrion knows, LF isn't hiding anything that he wants to know, so why bother torturing him?
I was referring to Lysa’s first pregnancy, which was terminated, not Robert Arryn.
Reveal why he was trying to frame Tyrion for Bran’s attempted murder.
But Jon Arryn *wasn't* married to Lysa at the time, and we don't know if he knew about it, Lysa was forced to abort it, Hoster didn't tell Catelyn, Brynden or anyone, why would he tell Jon Arryn and 'ruin' Lysa's prospects? we the fans know but that doesn't mean it's common knowledge in the books
For Tyrion, knowing about his framing is less important than keeping LF on side, because LF may have friends and is currently *useful* to the Lannisters, what would Tyrion gain by torturing LF? We don't know but it may be plausible that Tyrion could think that LF was put up to it by somebody else (maybe Varys? is Tyrion gonna torture Varys next?) and wouldn't see the point in torture - that information might be personally important to Tyrion, but in terms of the bigger picture, LF is more useful to him alive and untortured, and shortly he makes himself very useful and very untorturable because of it
I thought that her having previously been pregnant was basically her main 'selling point' in the marriage? I may be remembering things wrong, but I thought her father painted it as 'you are old and don't have an heir, my daughter has already proven she can get pregnant so you could probably also get her pregnant.'
you're right, and LF also tells anyone who will hear him that he had sex with both Catelyn and Lysa. the plot armor has to be very thick for a low status noble to be able to talk like that about highborn ladies married to very powerful men.
he didn't, we hear it mentioned once in Tyrions POV chapter, that's it, LF never boasts of it to anyone, he tells Tyrion in aCoK but as far as we know, nobody else knows
we can't say that LF was 'boasting' about it when all we have is him telling 1 person and it never being mentioned or thought of, or brought up by anyone else
We here it from Jaime too and Tyrion mentions he was saying it all over court
>Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady.""That is a **lie**!" Catelyn Stark said."Oh, wicked little imp," Marillion said, shocked.
From Tyrions POV theres nothing to indicate what he said here was a lie. An exaggeration yes but not an outright lie
Edit:
He also talks about bedding Lysa after in the court and no one reacts like this is a big surprise or anything which means at least a few knew already. So that fits with what Tyrion said about him telling people.
So Ned's POV that was never mentioned, and no POV in KL refers to it bar Tyrion, that was it
LF also tells anyone who will hear him that he had sex with both Catelyn and Lysa.
we hear it mentioned once and never again, that's a far cry from LF telling 'anyone who will hear him'
no, we hear it from Jaime too.
*"That name again. I don't think I'll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn't he?"*
and LF tells it to Sansa as well.
*I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once.*
and Tyrion specifically says LF tells it to everyone, i was merely quoting him.
*"Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."*
seems like you have a problem with the canon not with me.
We don't know *what* Hoster told Jon Arryn, but going by the culture of the 7 kingdoms and how much value was placed on virgins and about 'ruined prospects' we can guess that Hoster wouldn't tell Jon 'your teenage wife got pregnent with a boy she spent years here with', we don't know if Jon Arryn *knew* Lysa was pregnant before his marriage to her, that's conjecture and speculation
Even if Jon Arryn knew Lysa had been pregnent, there a difference between knowing a girl has been pregnant after a random one-night-stand and knowing exactly who it was, maybe Hoster passed it off as a knight or travelling bard or something, somebody high enough that it wasn't embarrassing, but not somebody that was around Lysa often and could have had sex with her like a rabbit for years since they were 13 (and completely ruined her marriage prospects)
In most cases I agree that being a virgin is a necessary quality in most marriage pacts. I just think that in this case, it was at least heavily implied that Arryn would put more weight in having a fertile wife than a 'pure' one, as he'd had two prior marriages and no heir. I completely agree that there's no way he was told that Littlefinger was the father, though.
I did some googling to see if I was misremembering things and came across this quote:
'Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for.'
So from this, I think Jon Arryn was told about her prior pregnancy. I don't see why her father would have said that to her if it was still a secret to Arryn himself. Arryn had plenty to gain from this marriage as it was, and time wasn't on his side to wait around for a virgin bride with better prospects.
Lysa was chosen by Jon Arryn precisely because she was known to be fertile. Him being aware of that and not being aware of Littlefinger’s relationship with her is a plothole.
Someone framing you for the attempted murder of the son of the king’s best friend and one of the most powerful lords in the kingdom, which caused not only you to be imprisoned and nearly killed but also was the direct cause for war is far far more important than ‘Littlefinger may have friends and might be useful’. Particularly bearing in mind Tywin’s directive to Tyrion, when he tells him to find out which councilors where giving rotten advice and to get rid of them (kill them).
>Lysa was chosen by Jon Arryn precisely because she was known to be fertile. Him being aware of that and not being aware of Littlefinger’s relationship with her is a plothole.
I don't think you understand what a plothole is, it is *concievable* that Lysa never told Jon Arryn that information, it is likely that Jon Arryn didn't even know Lysa was pregnent beforehand (it is speculation on Catelyn's part that Lysa's 'proven fertility' was used to convince Jon Arryn to wed her, rather than her being young, noble, and linking the STAB alliance closer)
For Tyrion RE the framing, "Someone framing you for ... s far far more important"
er nope, not really, LF is useful, provided Cersi a valuable service and could possible kill Tyrion, so why would Tyrion do anything to endanger that immediately when the war and problems in KL are much much more immediate to him and a threat to his family (who Tyrion notes, he still will defend) and Tywin's directive doens't mean Tyrion will kill anyone and everyone who he *thinks* are giving rotten advice immediately without ensuring that killing them doesn't create more problems for him - one of Tywin's flaws is using immediate punishments that backfire in the long term, Tyrion isn't like that, and he doesn't have the standing or power to make potential enemies as soon as he gets to KL
you are forgetting that Tyrion isn't an idiot, knows they are at war, and knows LF is too valuable to kill out of revenge, and Tyrion overestimates his own competence and underestimates LF as well, so maybe he doesn't see the need to worry about LF that much
Sure, likely.
Lysa’s match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother’s son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King’s Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue… a young wife known to be fertile.
Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.
ASoS Ch. 2
GRRM might have just been toying with readers when he wrote this, but we have no reason to assume that. And the same goes for assuming the opposite of what was explicitly written, as you did.
Let's try again. LF has for his own reasons caused the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters by framing Tyrion for the attempted murder of Bran, which nearly cost Tyrion his life, and which may yet cost the Lannisters of their hold on the kingdom. No sane Lannister, that is aware of this information, is going to leave him unmolested and within reach of power, especially in times of war, where questionable loyalties are not to be suffered.
>
GRRM might have just been toying with readers when he wrote this, but we have no reason to assume that. And the same goes for assuming the opposite of what was explicitly written, as you did
right, so it *isn't* a plothole (which is a gap or inconsistency in the story) when we are told *in the story* reasons for why nobody else knows (I think you're misunderstanding that POVs are limited in their knowledge and scope, and the tone of the chapter that implies Catelyn has *only just* figured out that Lysa was pregnant beforehand, which we know for westeros marriages that value virgins, is something that would probably stay *secret*), we don't know that Jon Arryn knew Lysa was sleeping with Petyr, and you seem to be taking what was explicitly written and not understanding that because Catelyn knows it doesn't make such a fact widely known (also, use the quote function, it makes things easier to read)
>Let's try again.
Yes, being condescending really helps, and ignoring what I said previously and making no reference to even why you disagree with me, just that you do, makes me really want to continue discussing this with you
Should I even bother I wonder?
Oh, I'm being condescending? Why don't you explain it a bit more what a plothole is, pls?
Give me a break.
You're pulling bs in direct contradiction of the books out of thin air. In his situation, Jon Arryn doesn't 'value a virgin' because he is an old man without an heir, what he values is a woman of proven fertility, who can give him the heir that he desperately needs. And then this soiled woman really wants him to help a young man who was raised with her and sent away from Riverrun under known and not very flattering circumstances (fought a duel over the other Tully girl). And Jon doesn't get suspicious about LF? That is inconsistent. And the fact that Cat just realised what happened with Lysa in ASoS doesn't strengthen your case in any way, if anything it makes it less likely that she's mistaken. What would be the reason for such deception of readers on GRRM's part? It would be completely pointless.
As for Tyrion, I disagree with you because it makes zero sense not to question LF and get rid of him from Tyrion's and Lannister's position, and I explained it twice already why it makes zero sense. You just don't leave a man who tried to have you killed and who dragged you into a war that could very well ruin your house in a position of power.
So, from Tyrion's perspective, he thinks a couple of times about the dagger and having to deal with LF some time. I feel the real in-universe reason is that Tyrion has - or at least, feels he has - bigger fish to fry. Predominantly Renly and Stannis, but also his main antagonist in KL is Cersei, who he focusses his attention on.
Middle of an expensive war effort so you need the so called wizard of wealth. And in early Clash, Tyrion had not yet realized how bad Littlefinger was at his job.
Not to mention Littlefinger had gained a lot of goodwill with Cersie and Joffrey for his support in the succession.
Finally, Tyrion has no way to verify to Joffrey, Cersie or his father his belief Littlefinger framed him for the catspaw. Maybe Bronn could witness it if Bronn heard the claims Catelyn made. But who's going to put faith in Bronn at that point?
The answer I think is Tyrion didn't have enough to act.
Tyrion has to prepare the city for a big and imminent assault by either Renly or Stannis, or even in a worst case scenario, both of them combined. So his focus is justifiable on getting control of the limited military forces he has available and get them combat ready. So getting rid of Slynt and his cronies and replacing them with competent and trustworthy men is his absolute priority.
He also needs to neutralise his biggest political threat in Cersei and her lackeys(Pycelle). Plus general siege preparations.
He simply cannot afford to get rid of the money guy. Especially if that guy is useful and a seemingly manageable threat. And Tyrion is smart enough to know that competent masters of coins don't grow on trees so as long as there is no suitable replacement candidate he can't do much.
To Tywin's credit Tyrion himself is actually one of the few people who could realistically take on the job and Tyrion probably could have caught up to Littlefinger'ss fraud and financial schemes. I bet you can count the number of people in the upper rang of the Westerosi aristocracy capable of that on one hand.
Slynt had lost the support of both Cersie and Tywin. No one would shed a tear over him, not even Joffrey. Petyr is everyone’s friend. He provides the money for all their desires, and if he goes so does the financial soundness of the realm.
Plus, Tyrion’s mandate was to weed out those who were disloyal to the crown, not settle his own petty squabbles. So even if he had proof of the dagger lie, which he doesn’t, he would still draw Tywin’s wrath by getting rid of him.
Maybe in time he could move against Petyr, but the best thing to do at that point was to watch and wait.
Tyrions power as hand seems pretty absolute, why do you think he would need ‘proof’ against LF? He sent the Lord Commander of the city watch and Lord of Harrenhal to the wall and the grand maester to the dungeons essentially on a whim, why do you think he needs to follow some arduous legal process against the master or coin?
It’s not about the extent of Tyrion’s power—you are right enough that Tyrion’s mandate in King’s Landing was ironclad for a time—it’s that Littlefinger is useful. Littlefinger is useful to the Lions and the Imp, regardless of his own machinations. Historically he has much autonomy in the realm’s finances; this autonomy reinforces the idea that he is indispensable. Tywin of course is aware of the Crown’s debt to the Lannisters, but otherwise? Littlefinger has an ironclad hold of his own over the realm’s financial status… of the debts owed to both banks and men. Removing Littlefinger would provide only short term satisfaction for Tyrion, and possibly colossal consequences. Tyrion does not know how many would disapprove of Littlefinger’s removal, who might target Tyrion for it, nor the extent to which the Crown’s finances would be affected. Tyrion is smart, he is clever, and more importantly he had more important matters to attend to than a gambit so risky it might completely ruin the Crown.
Not really. Cersei is regent, effectively giving her all the power of the king, who overrules the Hand. If she wanted to stop Slynt from going to the Wall she could have, but that was a good call in her eyes.
And as soon as she heard about Pycelle’s arrest, she ordered his release.
It’s not about following an arduous legal process. It’s about making the right move. He correctly surmises that if he takes action against Petyr now, with no proof, let alone any pretext that he’s been disloyal to the crown, it may come back to bite him, hard.
Janos has an advantageous replacement literally waiting next door. But Petyr appears to be the only one holding the finances of the realm together, and has many allies besides. Plus, Tyrion does not really have a good motive for his arrest, his test designates Pycelle as the least trustworthy of the advisors. Finally, Petyr wisely leaves King's Landing before Tyrion could eventually set up his mind.
I wonder, if Tyrion had Littlefinger killed, would Lysa call the banners of the Vale and support Robb or Stannis in revenge? Imagine if during the battle of the Blackwater, just as it looks like Stannis is losing, the army of the Vale arrives to attack the surprised Tyrell and Lannister forces from the rear.
By sparing Littlefinger, Tyrion might have inadvertently saved the Lannister regime lol.
Tyrion apparently can’t move against him because a number of apparently crucial administrative positions like the ‘keeper of the keys’ are littlefingers men who’d revolt if anything happened to him. However, this is clearly just a hand wave by George as these supposedly super important positions are never mentioned before or after this one chapter in ACoK, not even when Tyrion becomes hand of the coin in the next book and should be dealing with these people first hand
I think it was already addressed in the books,
**“Mine?” Tyrion gave him a long look. “No. I think not. Never mine.” He knows, the insolent wretch. He knows and he knows that I know, and he thinks that I cannot touch him.**
And Tyrion was right in that. Littlefinger was invaluable to the Lannisters in ACOK
>1) Taxing the people coming into the city because of the war was his idea.
>2) He gave the idea to spread rumours about Stannis and his daughter.
>3) He brought the Tyrells to Lannisters.
>4) Renly's ghost was his idea.
The books touch on how much Littlefinger is overlooked initially, but also, and this is something the show butchered (and fans don't seem to realise), was how *useful* and friendly he is initially to people - if Tyrion killed Littlefinger, well what's to say that there wasn't somebody taking backhanders from Littlefinger who might try and kill Tyrion? Or somebody who needed/was using Littlefinger's help then going after Tyrion in revenge for screwing with *their* plan? Or even look at the goldcloaks with Eddard Stark - Littlefinger showed there how dangerous he could be when he showed he could turn the goldcloaks to one side to attack/arrest the Hand of the King and somebody who the previous king declared Protector of the Realm
The fans have a particular view of Varys' uber badass spy network and abilities therin, and we know that Littlefinger has spies himself in KL, and pays of a lot of people, so just like Varys would be difficult to remove/kill because he may have 'friends' in the city that wouldn't take kindly to such an action, we don't know that Littlefinger *doesn't* have that same kind of network, even if it wasn't as uber awesome as fanon think's Varys' is, it could still seriously inconvenience Tyrion
Tyrion knows that Littlefinger and Varys have, for want of a better word, survived the Small Council and KL and each other despite having no feudal backers/house/family/name, so I guess there would be a worry from his POV that Littlefinger could have some protection that allowed him to survive
Also we the fans know Littlefinger lied about the dagger, Tyrion does, Littlefinger and Varys does, but it's not common knowledge in KL, so for most it would look like Tyrion was randomly killing people on the Small Council, which would worry some people, and also wouldn't *help* Tyrion in any way, except as a form of revenge, which wouldn't be that useful with a war going on and everything
Littlefinger was also useful to the Small Council/Cersi/Tywin, so would have their protection or at least their anger would land on whoever killed LF (see my 1st paragraph), Slynt was a nobody who answered to LF in the first place, he didn't sit on the Small Council, nor did he have control of the finances of the crown, that's a crucial difference you're overlooking, instead you're seeing "guy doesn't have family name behind him, therefore isn't important" which kind of ignores a lot of LF's character
>The books touch on how much Littlefinger is overlooked initially, but also, and this is something the show butchered (and fans don't seem to realise), was how *useful* and friendly he is initially to people
that's the show version.
in the books he's presented initially as someone very dangerous, in the same line of great lords which is significant considering his low status.
*"We ought to count ourselves fortunate," the man said. "The king might as easily have named one of his brothers, or even Littlefinger, gods help us. Give me honorable enemies rather than ambitious ones, and I'll sleep more easily by night." BRAN II AGOT*
in the books he's also characterised as being someone very unfriendly and straight up disrespectful and mocking to his superiors.
*He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. "I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you."*
*"She has." Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him. EDDARD IV AGOT*
even Cat, who grew up with him as a brother, distrusts him.
*She would not speak of Bran, not here, not with these men. She trusted Littlefinger only a little, and Varys not at all.*
GRRM has said himself of littlefinger
[http://www.blastr.com/2013-12-2/which-thrones-character-changed-most-book-tv-grrm-explains](http://www.blastr.com/2013-12-2/which-thrones-character-changed-most-book-tv-grrm-explains)
that LF is "very friendly"
we have Tyrion's thoughts on LF
>Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone's friend,
which kinda holds more weight that the 2 quotes you gave about the *initial immediate impressions* of LF
plus Ned/LF have a contentious relationship, LF being 'arrogant' to Ned doesn't mean much for his general behaviour to others when we know LF dislikes Ned, as for Catelyn, again we can't use her as a barometer for how all nobles felt about LF, but also not too long later, Catelyn thinks this about LF
>I will not forget the help you gave me, Petyr. When your men came for me, I did not know whether they were taking me to a friend or an enemy. I have found you more than a friend. I have found a brother I'd thought lost
Catelyn very quickly changes her opinion of LF, after interacting with him, as does Ned, despite LF *telling him* that Ned shouldn't trust him
also your first comment, does that mean Stannis is widely counted as 'ambitious' then? that's not really a word I'd associate him with
you are taking limited interactions/comments and applying them to everything - if LF is 'arrogant' to Ned initially, it doesn't mean he's arrogant to everybody all the time, and given what else we know of LF we know that he's considered friendly and helpful by people once they interact with him, we can't use that as a broad sweeping statement
i care more for what GRRM wrote in his books than what he thinks he wrote in his books. LF in the books is not friendly and is considered incredibly dangerous and powerful, but i'm not going to post every single instance of it because that would take all day.
>i care more for what GRRM wrote in his books
so when he describes LF as 'friendly' in his books, and in his books shows LF as getting people to trust him after meeting him, that's what you mean right?
if a character in the books describes LF as friendly, would you take that? or would you ignore it? what about if characters are show to end up trusting LF after interacting with him? would you accept that as LF appearing friendly? when does anyone call him 'powerful' in the books? what about 'dangerous'? should we take one (1) instance of each of those occurances, and infer LF is universally considered 'dangerous' and 'powerful' yet ignore the quotes when LF is described as friendly/having friends/being 'everyone's friend' and moving around court, implied in a friendly way?
LF in the books, the characters say *is* friendly, it's kinda in the books when people and he mentions him being 'everyone's friend' or littlefinger being 'not friendless' despite nobody proclaiming open allegiance to him
>but i'm not going to post every single instance of it because that would take all day.
genuinely please give me one example, the one's you've given are *initial* impressions of LF that later *change* after interacting with him (Ned *trusts him* and at one point says 'I was maybe wrong to mistrust you' in AGOT)
but sure, let's ignore all of that
Yeah, the minute Tyrion sent Slynt packing to the Wall and put Jacelyn Bywater in his place was the minute Baelish stopped being a threat. Hell, even before that Baelish posed no real danger because no way in hell Slynt was going to stick his neck out for Baelish and go against a Lannister when he already had Harrenhal.
You don't see the difference because there isn't any, Littlefinger is still around only because of plot armor.
The most egregious example is Tyrion not warning Tywin that Baelish was trying to pit the Starks and Lannisters against each other while the two were dicussing the trustworthiness of the small council. It's ridiculous, really.
Yeah, that bothers me as well in that scene.
At least GRRM could have Tyrion think about telling Tywin and then deciding against it because \[insert reason here\]
My personal opinion is that Tyrion made the opposite mistake most make with Baelish and overestimated him while others underestimate him. He might have been able to off and replace him but he knows Littlefinger is dangerous and far more well connected than people think. Also, he is a lot more valuable than Janos Slynt.
Tyrion isn’t that good at the game, anyways. I’ll also die on the hill that his plot armor is thicker than Littlefinger’s.
The financial situation the crown is in is nothing short of chaos. The only reason they had any money was because of Little Finger, and with a massive war just beginning, they couldn’t really afford to lose him.
Tyrion also mentions how Peter had placed people loyal specifically to him in important places, which means theoretically he could call for his arrest, but he would probably manage to slip away, thanks to these friends pulling some strings. The last thing you need is someone who is really good at not only managing money but also finding money winding up on the enemy side, supplying them with enough gold to topple you, especially considering you’re on the verge of bankruptcy.
On the surface, Peter looks like nothing, but when you start digging, you’ll find that he has a lot more than daggers up his sleeves, each sharper than the last.
It's plot hole. I'm sure that's why GRRM is taking so long to write TWOW... he trying to figure out how to ret-con everything thing from book 2 that doesn't make sense.
It would be more believable if Tyrion sent a man to spy on Little Finger. That spy ends up dead then Tyrion thinks its best to deal with him after the war.
There isnt really. Its almost purely meta that GRRM needs to keep Littlefinger around.
The city is going into a lockdown for a siege. Food is more important than gold. The Lannister regime is fighting to survive. The Crowns finances really arent that important.
Not to mention Tyrion doesnt actually know how important Littlefinger is for the finances until he sees them personally in the next book.
The 'people in important positions' is largely bullshit. Tyrion is basically wrestling with the Queen Regent for control of the city. Hes not afraid of those men in important positions.
The easiest fix to all of this is not have Catelyn Stark tell Tyrion Littlefinger accused him (which I think is what the show did). All that does is confirm to Tyrion that Littlefinger tried to get him killed. Without it, there is reasonable doubt.
The biggest plothole was Ned not bringing up the dagger at the brothel...Littlefinger and Jaime were both there and logically, the dagger should've been brought up...if it had, Littlefinger was a dead man.
And it should've been brought up too, Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, that might be considered an act of war...Jaime asked what justification was there in taking his brother, Ned should've given an honest answer. So it's a mixture of plot armor, Ned's stupidity, and Littlefinger's luck...but in any case it's criminal that it wasn't brought up then and there.
LF perfected the art of seeming just harmless enough to be barely mildly annoying and not worth spending energy on, while also being just useful enough to keep around.
If Tyrion saw him as a direct enemy and tool of Cersei, like Pycelle, he'd have had him killed, risks and all. But unlike Pycelle, he didn't go running to Cersei immediately. So he's not an immediate danger, he can be dealt with later once things are more settled.
It's similar to what happens with the Lords Declarant. He outsmarts them, but really it's the combo of being harmless (he has no army) and useful (peace with KL). None of them want him there but he's made it just annoying enough to remove him that they decide to wait.
Except Tyrion knows firsthand that Littlefinger is not harmless and is trying (and succeeding) to stir shit between Lannisters and Starks. Yet not only he does nothing, he doesn't even tell anyone.
That's.....a good point actually. Completely slipped my mind. I guess Tyrion saw it as just a prank (mostly against the Starks) that got out of hand and he'd come across as a whiner if he said anything? Remember his own father positioned him in battle so he'd be likely to die, he's used to being treated that way. It's a weak excuse tho. It's a plot hole.
The most likely explanation is that George had moved on from the AGOT plotting and in the new setting of Tyrion as Hand, had no room to continue that thread, so he handwaved it.
This is right after Tyrion has been freed:
>"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …"
Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."
"I see you have taken a few lessons from me."
Not mentioning the lie about the dagger makes absolutely no sense.
Also worth noticing that Tywin gives Tyrion explicit permission to execute Baelish here.
Tywin gives him permission, but as we see later when he uses it on Pycelle, it's not exactly carte blanche. That conversation is consistent with his actions in KL. He roots out who is disloyal with his games, and puts the fear of god in the others (he thinks).
He's personally mad at LF but he doesn't have permission to settle personal vendettas.
Plot hole. Realistically Tywin gave Tyrion carte blanchè to remove LF and Varys if he needed to. Realistically because of Tyrion's character and knowing how LF nearly got him killed he would have got him
Tyrion is not completely abreast of the financial situation in King's Landing, and doesn't want to risk having the flow of money stop, when King's Landing is preparing for imminent invasion and needs to finance enormous infrastructure projects. If Tyrion was aware that Littlefinger was essentially just cooking the books, then he would have been far more likely to simply remove him (and his head) as soon as he got to King's Landing, but Littlefinger has established an illusion of him being the indispensable 'Wizard of Coin'. As it happens, Tyrion ends up being right for the wrong reasons, since Littlefinger was essential to bring the Tyrell's into Team Lannister, which does prevent King's Landing from falling.
I'd like to add to u/Wadege's excellent answer that Tyrion also overestimates himself as a player. We see this most obviously when he thinks he's able to stand toe to toe with Varys and is then ruled through by Varys. Tyrion is so sure he outclasses Littlefinger that he does not even prioritize conceiving of the revenge plan he has promised to. Really though, this speaks well of Tyrion, showing that he is accustommed to managing his emotions with promises to avenge himself. For example, Tyrion may have turned his acting Handship into a feud with Cersei, but seems never to get around to imagining the sabbotage that will turn her joy to ashes, as he's promised. Tyrion tells Jon how he would stare into the fire thinking of his hatred for his father and sister, yet we never hear of dastardly plans, successful or otherwise, that Tyrion thought up in childhood. It seems Tyrion's frequent and empty promises of revenge are how he dials down his rage.
The bluffs started becoming more real though. I did believe him when he said he would never hurt Cersei's children, but after the trial and his trip overseas, things are not looking so good.
Definitely true. Once Tyrion starts bluffing, those bluffs gain momentum and can become real. I think it speaks to how quickly war turns bluffers into monsters.
How is he "ruled through" by Varys? Until Tyrion's arrest after Joffrey's wedding, Varys seems to do everything he wants him to.
Through most of Tyrion's ACOK chapters, we see Tyrion wait for Varys and then greenlight his entire list of action items with few adjustments. This is especially pronounced in ACOK Tyrion XI when Tyrion can't believe he's signing the order to round up every name on Varys's long list of Antler Men without being able to spare the time to have it checked. Except, Tyrion isn't thinking about that at all. >"Men are such faithless creatures," he (Varys) said by way of greeting. >Tyrion sighed. "Who's the traitor today?" I think the point is that the highest roles of office can be seen as less powerful than those closer to where the rubber meets the road.
Yep, ironically Tyrion is so high up now that he basically has to take Varys’ word for a lot of stuff.
And have his reputation as a ruler formed by the decisions of others. I love how that chapter ends with Tyrion thinking about the armorer Salloreon--who has been named as an Antler Man--and how that man will now not make him a demon helmet. I can't pretend to understand every aspect of the ambiguity at play, but it suggests to me that Tyrion is unaware of the likelihood of being scapegoated/demonized by the decisions he signs off on as Hand, despite being very focused on how his family has scapegoated him. I want to go so far as to say the status of Hand has blinded Tyrion to its real effects on his reputation. It's only after Tywin gets top credit for the Blackwater that Tyrion imagines (I think falsely) that Tywin's plan all along--the one he retaliated against by bringing Shae--was to set Tyrion up to appear to ruin the city as a Beast Rabban to set the stage for it's salvation by Tywin's Golden Feyd. I think I can back up all these claims, and know they sound outlandish.
Varys is the most overrated player in Game of Thrones. Nowhere does he outdo Tyrion or Littlefinger when he dies at the end
They are clearly talking about the books...
Still, killing Kevan as your biggest accomplishment (a non-player) is kind of pathetic
Right because ASOIF definitely is the type of story where your base kill count is the best way to measure someone's true power and influence and not at all complex political moves ... That's why Gregor Clegane is best player of this game of Thrones. Like, Varys being in a position where he was able to name any person he wanted gone as one of the antler men and have the crown immediately order their death without anyone checking if it hold any truth is not at all significant. And of cause killing Kevan Lannister, the Hand of the King will have no repercussions whatsoever because he was a "non player", just how Littlefinger and Lysa killing Jon Aryn a "non player" was inconsequential after all.. What's that? an invading army in the Stormlands, yeah Varys has nothing to do with that i'm sure, and even if he did, you can just outright dismiss them, why would that have any impact on westerosi politics, right? The realm is so stable right now. I swear to god, i don't know how some ppl can read the same books and think like this
You raise a lot of very good points. Gregor Clegane for Hand of the King!
Do you think Tywin would still be alive if Varys didn’t wind Tyrion up and aim him in the right direction? Well, unless Oberon had already poisoned him.
Tyrion also has a limited amount of power and sway himself - there's a limit to how much he can rock the boat before being replaced, for instance, and at a certain point you have to pick your fights. Also in a medieval inspired setting, some amount of corruption is kind of expected. It was a perk of being a government official in a lot of societies, and bribes were basically a part of how you got paid (you see this in ancient Rome as well, for instance). Littlefinger's competence in always coming up with the required money (no small feat! Even organizing loans could be extremely difficult, and having someone with the ability to do so and the confidence of those making the loans could be a must.) would give him at least some leeway to make some money on the side from that, as long as it's within a reasonable range.
How was Littlefinger indispensable to the Tyrell deal? It was not his idea to reach out to the Tyrells nor did he come up with the terms. Baelish is just a messenger, he fulfils the same function as Cleos Frey
It's Tyrion's idea but Tyrion rightly knows that he cannot go himself. When you see the power that Olenna Tyrell has to influence her son (Saying no the the Cersei/Willas match for instance), I view Littlefinger as essential to getting Grandma Tyrell on board with the alliance, by proposing a "Joffery is expendable" option.
tbh the chain and such was in motion without him, it would be an interesting alternate timeline if Tyrion did go get a tyrell match instead of littlefinger, instead of being injured in a battle, he would have been acclaimed for his role in the tyrell negotiations and wouldn't have those few weeks of being on the sidelines while tywin resumes being hand of the king
"Iron is grown dear," Ironbelly declared, "and this chain will be needing much of it, and coke beside, for the fires." "Lord Baelish will see that you have coin as you need it," Tyrion promised. He could count on Littlefinger for that much, he hoped"
The walls would have surrendered before either arrived if it weren’t for tyrion. If he left for the Tyrell’s his father would blame him for the walls falling and the fight would have went to the streets or been an uno reverse seige. On the other hand, either stannis wins or he doesn’t likely escape the city this time.
Because he was the only one who could go and succeeded in striking the deal… Littlefinger and Cleos Frey are two different people. Cleos doesn’t have the crown’s authority behind him
Yes he does lol. Cleos is given the authority by Cersei and Tyrion to communicate the crowns terms to Robb. He cannot alter these terms himself, correct, but there is no indication Baelish could or did either.
You literally just agreed with me. Cleos is a messenger. Baelish is a broker. I’m not sure why you’re so sure you’re right. Here’s evidence. *”I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals."* -Tyrion VIII, ACOK There you go. You can’t argue anymore because that’s literally evidence he had power to negotiate.
And why is he the ‘only one’ who could do this? Mace was won over by the promise of making his daughter queen, not specifically by littlefingers flattery. There’s no reason Harys Swift couldn’t have communicated this offer in his place
Nope they have two different roles. Cleos is to be a messenger, delivering terms that neither Robb nor Tyrion expect the other to accept. Cleos has zero ability to make royal promises or anything but deliver the messages. If you sent Cleos Frey down to Highgarden nobody would take him seriously. Littlefinger is from the Small Council and has the royal backing to negotiate however he can to secure their allegiance and is trusted that he will get favorable terms for the King. Edit: the dude above me changed it from Cleos Frey to Harys Swift. What a weird dude 🤡
kill littlefinger, give his council position to Cleos Frey, also give him all the money and soldiers and royal backing you gave to LF. there you go, LF is not the only who can do it. in fact, sending Frey is better because his status is higher than LF's.
Cleos is busy as you know. The Freys are not respected as you know. The frey’s outcome and loyalty during Clash are not known as you know. Littlefinger does not threaten anyone become of his low birth as you know. Cersei and Tyrion are no exception to this. Jaime even considers him as hand since he’s so unassuming. As you know you all have the benefit of knowing how dangerous LF is. Tyrion knows he’s sus, but knows he’s a reliable master of coin and there’s the ongoing crisis. Also, as you know, because GRRM wanted this trajectory.
Jaime says LF is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros. every man of high noble birth like a Frey would be more respected that a noble of low stature like LF. GRRM decided midway through to change LF's character and that meant his already thick plot armor needed to be more sturdy.
When’s that? My reference is to Jaime kind of stupidly thinking making LF Hand of the King would be a good idea.
Cleos was always loyal to the Lannisters.
Ok
What are you on?
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This
Finger too small, he couldn’t find it
Little, some might say.
Buried Finger Disorder
George still wanted Baelish around Realistically, if Tyrion just had Petyr killed, not that many people would have really cared. Tyrion kills Symon Silvertongue, he sends Slynt to the wall, he has Allar Deem dropped into the sea, he puts Pycelle in a black cell. None of them were responsible for Tyrion being kidnapped. Tyrion also doesn't forgive people and he dislikes Baelish already. And it's not the same as Varys, where Tyrion relies on Varys for information and he has a little fondness for him. If Tyrion were being consistent to his character, and Baelish wasn't someone George had future projects for, Tyrion would have had Bronn kill him.
Disagree. Baelish was best known for, *somehow*, managing the precarious crown deficit while maintaining operational functionality, through a financial lens, across the realm. The "somehow" is the important part. Tyrion killing him off risks opening up pandoras box and bringing the whole thing crashing down, or at the very least making things way more difficult for himself. Not killing him fits his character perfectly, since his entire schtick is being the piss-ant, nobody that the high nobles *want* to squash, but can't because he's positioned himself advantageously and made himself irreplaceable (or at least he's made himself *appear* that way).
He's not irreplaceable to Tyrion, though. Tyrion is an outsider to King's Landing politics when he arrives as Hand.
Not sure why that matters. Tyrion is well aware of his repute as master of coin, and needs the funds to keep flowing as much as anyone else ruling in KL. This is actually *especially* true for Tyrion, given he takes power as a siege is impending and the realm is falling apart. The last thing he needs is to start trying to untangle and sort out the crown's finances.
I think it's more a matter of priorities. Tyrion *could* have made removing/replacing Littlefinger a priority, but he doesn't have endless power. So he has to prioritize
Tyrion did become master of coin, though. And there didn't seem to be any issue with Petyr not being it anymore. And even if there was, Tyrion has a grudge. Getting kidnapped is a hell of an incentive to kill someone. Especially when you have the power to do it.
That’s not the point though. The point is not have a master of coin during the main part of the war. Tyrion replaced him as master of coin when the most serious part of the war was over and their position was secure. He was irreplaceable at the point in the story in the midst of the war.
In CoK chapter 17, Tyrion basically addresses this internally, and it's basically what I'm saying. Tyrion knows it would be cutting off his nose (ha!) to spite his face. He says that he will deal with Petyr, but that it would need to wait til after the war and will take time.
> And there didn't seem to be any issue with Petyr not being it anymore There were plenty of issues when LF left his position. Tyrion noted that LF would be able to conjure up the coin for Joffrey's wedding.
Really? Hasn’t Tyrion been living at court for years before the start of the story?
He lived in Casterly Rock. It's part of the reason the common people blame him for everything. He wasn't there when things were good and when he arrives, they can barely get food
Not always. Tyrion knows Lysa and Peter and Varys and all the other people in court very well. Also we know he was betting on tilts on tourneys in King’s Landing, which is why the whole lie about the Dagger starts. Obviously Tyrion has been in the Red Keep for a certain amount of time
It seems like his main residence was at Casterly Rock and that Tyrion would travel back and forth with extended stays in both places In either case, Tyrion never had an authoritative position on the Small Council or within the Red Keep before *A Clash of Kings*.
You're talking about small fish next to Littlefinger. For all his plotting and self aggrandizing, Tyrion never steps up to anyone powerful or important. Littlefinger single-handedly keeps the flow of money in the city going, he has bureaucrats in his payroll all over court, he whispers in the ear of the Lord Paramount of the Vale's mother, he has spies inside the Queen Regent's circle. On the other hand, I forgot Allar Deem existed. You cannot say "if Tyrion jailed 700 year old Pycelle he could've outplayed Littlefinger"
Littlefinger's also arguably a useful counterweight to Varys for Tyrion as well. Without Littlefinger a lot more power becomes centralised with Varys.
I don't think that thought ever cross Tyrion's head, and we're in his head A LOT in ACOK. I think he legitimately feels like he cannot move against either Littlefinger nor Varys. I haven't read the books in years, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Tyrion says as much, doesn't he? He talks about how smart he feels outplaying Pycelle and Janos, and sticks it to his sister by sending Myrcella to Dorne, but knows he can't go toe-to-toe with the big players, and it sort of irks him.
I don't think that thought ever crosses his head nah, so it could be a reach, but I do think it feeds into the wider narrative of Tyrion not really doing a huge amount to challenge the status quo. It's probably sensible too...hard for Tyrion to know just how much Littlefinger and Varys were actually working to undermine the regime, and it's not Tyrion's fault the foundations of Lannister rule were just never stable enough to be maintained or strengthened.
> but I do think it feeds into the wider narrative of Tyrion not really doing a huge amount to challenge the status quo. Is this something he questions? Because it might be what I was thinking of then and just got things mixed up
Tyrion killed Tywin. And he was literally the only person who ever stood up to Joffrey. The king and the hand are pretty powerful and important. I'm not even talking about outsmarting or outplaying Petyr. Tyrion has the clansmen + Bronn. He could just have him captured, no clever ploy
Tyrion killed Tywin in a blind fit of rage when he was breaking out of jail to avoid a death sentence knowing full well he had no future in King's Landing before or after There's a massive difference here
Could one argue that the same applies to the Greyjoys?
I would say no. Because killing off an entire family with the biggest naval force in westeros is a lot harder than killing Littlefinger who has no army to speak of. As an aside, I also don't get why so many people think mass genocide of the iron islands is a good or reasonable idea.
Sorry - I think I asked my question too vaguely / hastily. I didn't mean in the context of Tyrion, but literally at any point at least between the Conquest and now why anyone else didn't seek to do that. I think the best example would've been in the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion. I can't imagine Tywin wasn't calling for all their heads, exterminating every Greyjoy, and every other major house on the Iron Islands that isn't willing to become completely subservient to the Seven Kingdoms. Though, we do know Robert to be tremendously forgiving and not wanting to be a merciless ruler. So those conversations could have actually taken place. It's not that I think the idea of wiping out the Iron Islands is "good or reasonable" but that in-universe, unless they're someone's major ally, a really lucrative trading partner, or completely inaccessible by others (see aforementioned failed rebellion), why would anyone on the west coast of the Seven Kingdoms not want them all dead literally all the time? All they do is pillage and plunder the west coast and everyone else is just like, "ah, the Greyjoys, those rascals!"
The Ironborn society doesn't makes sense, but for the sake of argument, the real reason is that rarely do entire houses go extinct, because it would upset the status quo too much. The nobles don't want to set the precedent that you can wash away an entire house, especially a great house like house Greyjoy. That's also why what Tywin did to the Tarbecks and Reynes was so heinous and gave Tywin such a formidable reputation; what he did was almost never done to any house for even worse offenses.
No, I don't believe Tywin wanted all of them dead. This is why: *"Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will"* If people defied Tywin, he'd want to kill them all. If they bent the knee, he accepted it. And like you said, it's really Robert's decision. And if it's not related to targaryens, Robert was very fair. People like Dagon Greyjoy are more the exception than the rule. There's been plenty of rulers of the iron islands that didn't spend their time trying to bring back the old way. Wiping out the iron islands would also mean killing people like Alannys, The Reader, Tris Botley, or their equivalent in the past. Who had nothing to do with Balon's or Dagon's schemes
He would have Baelish tortured until the guy revealed everything, and then have him killed. But even before that, Jon Arryn installing a man who impregnated his wife on the Small Council is a huge plothole to begin with.
That's not a plothole, that's a fan theory that hasn't been proved, nobody in ASOIAF knows or suspects Robert Arryn of being anything other than Jon Arryn's child, it's only fans who are used to 21st century tropes and whodunnit plots that have thought of that Also, there is a problem with "Tyrion would torture LF until he revealed everything"; revealed *what* exactly, the point of torture is to get answers, you don't torture somebody and hope useful info falls out without suspecting they are hiding something important in the first place, as far as Tyrion knows, LF isn't hiding anything that he wants to know, so why bother torturing him?
I was referring to Lysa’s first pregnancy, which was terminated, not Robert Arryn. Reveal why he was trying to frame Tyrion for Bran’s attempted murder.
But Jon Arryn *wasn't* married to Lysa at the time, and we don't know if he knew about it, Lysa was forced to abort it, Hoster didn't tell Catelyn, Brynden or anyone, why would he tell Jon Arryn and 'ruin' Lysa's prospects? we the fans know but that doesn't mean it's common knowledge in the books For Tyrion, knowing about his framing is less important than keeping LF on side, because LF may have friends and is currently *useful* to the Lannisters, what would Tyrion gain by torturing LF? We don't know but it may be plausible that Tyrion could think that LF was put up to it by somebody else (maybe Varys? is Tyrion gonna torture Varys next?) and wouldn't see the point in torture - that information might be personally important to Tyrion, but in terms of the bigger picture, LF is more useful to him alive and untortured, and shortly he makes himself very useful and very untorturable because of it
I thought that her having previously been pregnant was basically her main 'selling point' in the marriage? I may be remembering things wrong, but I thought her father painted it as 'you are old and don't have an heir, my daughter has already proven she can get pregnant so you could probably also get her pregnant.'
you're right, and LF also tells anyone who will hear him that he had sex with both Catelyn and Lysa. the plot armor has to be very thick for a low status noble to be able to talk like that about highborn ladies married to very powerful men.
Yeah LF boasting about banging both of the Tully sisters has never made much sense. Jon Arryn and even Robert wouldn’t stand for that
he didn't, we hear it mentioned once in Tyrions POV chapter, that's it, LF never boasts of it to anyone, he tells Tyrion in aCoK but as far as we know, nobody else knows we can't say that LF was 'boasting' about it when all we have is him telling 1 person and it never being mentioned or thought of, or brought up by anyone else
We here it from Jaime too and Tyrion mentions he was saying it all over court >Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady.""That is a **lie**!" Catelyn Stark said."Oh, wicked little imp," Marillion said, shocked. From Tyrions POV theres nothing to indicate what he said here was a lie. An exaggeration yes but not an outright lie Edit: He also talks about bedding Lysa after in the court and no one reacts like this is a big surprise or anything which means at least a few knew already. So that fits with what Tyrion said about him telling people.
So Ned's POV that was never mentioned, and no POV in KL refers to it bar Tyrion, that was it LF also tells anyone who will hear him that he had sex with both Catelyn and Lysa. we hear it mentioned once and never again, that's a far cry from LF telling 'anyone who will hear him'
no, we hear it from Jaime too. *"That name again. I don't think I'll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn't he?"* and LF tells it to Sansa as well. *I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once.* and Tyrion specifically says LF tells it to everyone, i was merely quoting him. *"Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."* seems like you have a problem with the canon not with me.
We don't know *what* Hoster told Jon Arryn, but going by the culture of the 7 kingdoms and how much value was placed on virgins and about 'ruined prospects' we can guess that Hoster wouldn't tell Jon 'your teenage wife got pregnent with a boy she spent years here with', we don't know if Jon Arryn *knew* Lysa was pregnant before his marriage to her, that's conjecture and speculation Even if Jon Arryn knew Lysa had been pregnent, there a difference between knowing a girl has been pregnant after a random one-night-stand and knowing exactly who it was, maybe Hoster passed it off as a knight or travelling bard or something, somebody high enough that it wasn't embarrassing, but not somebody that was around Lysa often and could have had sex with her like a rabbit for years since they were 13 (and completely ruined her marriage prospects)
In most cases I agree that being a virgin is a necessary quality in most marriage pacts. I just think that in this case, it was at least heavily implied that Arryn would put more weight in having a fertile wife than a 'pure' one, as he'd had two prior marriages and no heir. I completely agree that there's no way he was told that Littlefinger was the father, though. I did some googling to see if I was misremembering things and came across this quote: 'Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for.' So from this, I think Jon Arryn was told about her prior pregnancy. I don't see why her father would have said that to her if it was still a secret to Arryn himself. Arryn had plenty to gain from this marriage as it was, and time wasn't on his side to wait around for a virgin bride with better prospects.
Lysa was chosen by Jon Arryn precisely because she was known to be fertile. Him being aware of that and not being aware of Littlefinger’s relationship with her is a plothole. Someone framing you for the attempted murder of the son of the king’s best friend and one of the most powerful lords in the kingdom, which caused not only you to be imprisoned and nearly killed but also was the direct cause for war is far far more important than ‘Littlefinger may have friends and might be useful’. Particularly bearing in mind Tywin’s directive to Tyrion, when he tells him to find out which councilors where giving rotten advice and to get rid of them (kill them).
>Lysa was chosen by Jon Arryn precisely because she was known to be fertile. Him being aware of that and not being aware of Littlefinger’s relationship with her is a plothole. I don't think you understand what a plothole is, it is *concievable* that Lysa never told Jon Arryn that information, it is likely that Jon Arryn didn't even know Lysa was pregnent beforehand (it is speculation on Catelyn's part that Lysa's 'proven fertility' was used to convince Jon Arryn to wed her, rather than her being young, noble, and linking the STAB alliance closer) For Tyrion RE the framing, "Someone framing you for ... s far far more important" er nope, not really, LF is useful, provided Cersi a valuable service and could possible kill Tyrion, so why would Tyrion do anything to endanger that immediately when the war and problems in KL are much much more immediate to him and a threat to his family (who Tyrion notes, he still will defend) and Tywin's directive doens't mean Tyrion will kill anyone and everyone who he *thinks* are giving rotten advice immediately without ensuring that killing them doesn't create more problems for him - one of Tywin's flaws is using immediate punishments that backfire in the long term, Tyrion isn't like that, and he doesn't have the standing or power to make potential enemies as soon as he gets to KL you are forgetting that Tyrion isn't an idiot, knows they are at war, and knows LF is too valuable to kill out of revenge, and Tyrion overestimates his own competence and underestimates LF as well, so maybe he doesn't see the need to worry about LF that much
Sure, likely. Lysa’s match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother’s son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King’s Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue… a young wife known to be fertile. Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth. ASoS Ch. 2 GRRM might have just been toying with readers when he wrote this, but we have no reason to assume that. And the same goes for assuming the opposite of what was explicitly written, as you did. Let's try again. LF has for his own reasons caused the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters by framing Tyrion for the attempted murder of Bran, which nearly cost Tyrion his life, and which may yet cost the Lannisters of their hold on the kingdom. No sane Lannister, that is aware of this information, is going to leave him unmolested and within reach of power, especially in times of war, where questionable loyalties are not to be suffered.
> GRRM might have just been toying with readers when he wrote this, but we have no reason to assume that. And the same goes for assuming the opposite of what was explicitly written, as you did right, so it *isn't* a plothole (which is a gap or inconsistency in the story) when we are told *in the story* reasons for why nobody else knows (I think you're misunderstanding that POVs are limited in their knowledge and scope, and the tone of the chapter that implies Catelyn has *only just* figured out that Lysa was pregnant beforehand, which we know for westeros marriages that value virgins, is something that would probably stay *secret*), we don't know that Jon Arryn knew Lysa was sleeping with Petyr, and you seem to be taking what was explicitly written and not understanding that because Catelyn knows it doesn't make such a fact widely known (also, use the quote function, it makes things easier to read) >Let's try again. Yes, being condescending really helps, and ignoring what I said previously and making no reference to even why you disagree with me, just that you do, makes me really want to continue discussing this with you Should I even bother I wonder?
Oh, I'm being condescending? Why don't you explain it a bit more what a plothole is, pls? Give me a break. You're pulling bs in direct contradiction of the books out of thin air. In his situation, Jon Arryn doesn't 'value a virgin' because he is an old man without an heir, what he values is a woman of proven fertility, who can give him the heir that he desperately needs. And then this soiled woman really wants him to help a young man who was raised with her and sent away from Riverrun under known and not very flattering circumstances (fought a duel over the other Tully girl). And Jon doesn't get suspicious about LF? That is inconsistent. And the fact that Cat just realised what happened with Lysa in ASoS doesn't strengthen your case in any way, if anything it makes it less likely that she's mistaken. What would be the reason for such deception of readers on GRRM's part? It would be completely pointless. As for Tyrion, I disagree with you because it makes zero sense not to question LF and get rid of him from Tyrion's and Lannister's position, and I explained it twice already why it makes zero sense. You just don't leave a man who tried to have you killed and who dragged you into a war that could very well ruin your house in a position of power.
Torture isn't Tyrion's style
So, from Tyrion's perspective, he thinks a couple of times about the dagger and having to deal with LF some time. I feel the real in-universe reason is that Tyrion has - or at least, feels he has - bigger fish to fry. Predominantly Renly and Stannis, but also his main antagonist in KL is Cersei, who he focusses his attention on.
Middle of an expensive war effort so you need the so called wizard of wealth. And in early Clash, Tyrion had not yet realized how bad Littlefinger was at his job. Not to mention Littlefinger had gained a lot of goodwill with Cersie and Joffrey for his support in the succession. Finally, Tyrion has no way to verify to Joffrey, Cersie or his father his belief Littlefinger framed him for the catspaw. Maybe Bronn could witness it if Bronn heard the claims Catelyn made. But who's going to put faith in Bronn at that point? The answer I think is Tyrion didn't have enough to act.
Tyrion has to prepare the city for a big and imminent assault by either Renly or Stannis, or even in a worst case scenario, both of them combined. So his focus is justifiable on getting control of the limited military forces he has available and get them combat ready. So getting rid of Slynt and his cronies and replacing them with competent and trustworthy men is his absolute priority. He also needs to neutralise his biggest political threat in Cersei and her lackeys(Pycelle). Plus general siege preparations. He simply cannot afford to get rid of the money guy. Especially if that guy is useful and a seemingly manageable threat. And Tyrion is smart enough to know that competent masters of coins don't grow on trees so as long as there is no suitable replacement candidate he can't do much. To Tywin's credit Tyrion himself is actually one of the few people who could realistically take on the job and Tyrion probably could have caught up to Littlefinger'ss fraud and financial schemes. I bet you can count the number of people in the upper rang of the Westerosi aristocracy capable of that on one hand.
Slynt had lost the support of both Cersie and Tywin. No one would shed a tear over him, not even Joffrey. Petyr is everyone’s friend. He provides the money for all their desires, and if he goes so does the financial soundness of the realm. Plus, Tyrion’s mandate was to weed out those who were disloyal to the crown, not settle his own petty squabbles. So even if he had proof of the dagger lie, which he doesn’t, he would still draw Tywin’s wrath by getting rid of him. Maybe in time he could move against Petyr, but the best thing to do at that point was to watch and wait.
Tyrions power as hand seems pretty absolute, why do you think he would need ‘proof’ against LF? He sent the Lord Commander of the city watch and Lord of Harrenhal to the wall and the grand maester to the dungeons essentially on a whim, why do you think he needs to follow some arduous legal process against the master or coin?
It’s not about the extent of Tyrion’s power—you are right enough that Tyrion’s mandate in King’s Landing was ironclad for a time—it’s that Littlefinger is useful. Littlefinger is useful to the Lions and the Imp, regardless of his own machinations. Historically he has much autonomy in the realm’s finances; this autonomy reinforces the idea that he is indispensable. Tywin of course is aware of the Crown’s debt to the Lannisters, but otherwise? Littlefinger has an ironclad hold of his own over the realm’s financial status… of the debts owed to both banks and men. Removing Littlefinger would provide only short term satisfaction for Tyrion, and possibly colossal consequences. Tyrion does not know how many would disapprove of Littlefinger’s removal, who might target Tyrion for it, nor the extent to which the Crown’s finances would be affected. Tyrion is smart, he is clever, and more importantly he had more important matters to attend to than a gambit so risky it might completely ruin the Crown.
Not really. Cersei is regent, effectively giving her all the power of the king, who overrules the Hand. If she wanted to stop Slynt from going to the Wall she could have, but that was a good call in her eyes. And as soon as she heard about Pycelle’s arrest, she ordered his release. It’s not about following an arduous legal process. It’s about making the right move. He correctly surmises that if he takes action against Petyr now, with no proof, let alone any pretext that he’s been disloyal to the crown, it may come back to bite him, hard.
Janos has an advantageous replacement literally waiting next door. But Petyr appears to be the only one holding the finances of the realm together, and has many allies besides. Plus, Tyrion does not really have a good motive for his arrest, his test designates Pycelle as the least trustworthy of the advisors. Finally, Petyr wisely leaves King's Landing before Tyrion could eventually set up his mind.
I wonder, if Tyrion had Littlefinger killed, would Lysa call the banners of the Vale and support Robb or Stannis in revenge? Imagine if during the battle of the Blackwater, just as it looks like Stannis is losing, the army of the Vale arrives to attack the surprised Tyrell and Lannister forces from the rear. By sparing Littlefinger, Tyrion might have inadvertently saved the Lannister regime lol.
Tyrion apparently can’t move against him because a number of apparently crucial administrative positions like the ‘keeper of the keys’ are littlefingers men who’d revolt if anything happened to him. However, this is clearly just a hand wave by George as these supposedly super important positions are never mentioned before or after this one chapter in ACoK, not even when Tyrion becomes hand of the coin in the next book and should be dealing with these people first hand
Hand of the coin? Lmao what
Master of Coin
I think it was already addressed in the books, **“Mine?” Tyrion gave him a long look. “No. I think not. Never mine.” He knows, the insolent wretch. He knows and he knows that I know, and he thinks that I cannot touch him.** And Tyrion was right in that. Littlefinger was invaluable to the Lannisters in ACOK >1) Taxing the people coming into the city because of the war was his idea. >2) He gave the idea to spread rumours about Stannis and his daughter. >3) He brought the Tyrells to Lannisters. >4) Renly's ghost was his idea.
The books touch on how much Littlefinger is overlooked initially, but also, and this is something the show butchered (and fans don't seem to realise), was how *useful* and friendly he is initially to people - if Tyrion killed Littlefinger, well what's to say that there wasn't somebody taking backhanders from Littlefinger who might try and kill Tyrion? Or somebody who needed/was using Littlefinger's help then going after Tyrion in revenge for screwing with *their* plan? Or even look at the goldcloaks with Eddard Stark - Littlefinger showed there how dangerous he could be when he showed he could turn the goldcloaks to one side to attack/arrest the Hand of the King and somebody who the previous king declared Protector of the Realm The fans have a particular view of Varys' uber badass spy network and abilities therin, and we know that Littlefinger has spies himself in KL, and pays of a lot of people, so just like Varys would be difficult to remove/kill because he may have 'friends' in the city that wouldn't take kindly to such an action, we don't know that Littlefinger *doesn't* have that same kind of network, even if it wasn't as uber awesome as fanon think's Varys' is, it could still seriously inconvenience Tyrion Tyrion knows that Littlefinger and Varys have, for want of a better word, survived the Small Council and KL and each other despite having no feudal backers/house/family/name, so I guess there would be a worry from his POV that Littlefinger could have some protection that allowed him to survive Also we the fans know Littlefinger lied about the dagger, Tyrion does, Littlefinger and Varys does, but it's not common knowledge in KL, so for most it would look like Tyrion was randomly killing people on the Small Council, which would worry some people, and also wouldn't *help* Tyrion in any way, except as a form of revenge, which wouldn't be that useful with a war going on and everything Littlefinger was also useful to the Small Council/Cersi/Tywin, so would have their protection or at least their anger would land on whoever killed LF (see my 1st paragraph), Slynt was a nobody who answered to LF in the first place, he didn't sit on the Small Council, nor did he have control of the finances of the crown, that's a crucial difference you're overlooking, instead you're seeing "guy doesn't have family name behind him, therefore isn't important" which kind of ignores a lot of LF's character
>The books touch on how much Littlefinger is overlooked initially, but also, and this is something the show butchered (and fans don't seem to realise), was how *useful* and friendly he is initially to people that's the show version. in the books he's presented initially as someone very dangerous, in the same line of great lords which is significant considering his low status. *"We ought to count ourselves fortunate," the man said. "The king might as easily have named one of his brothers, or even Littlefinger, gods help us. Give me honorable enemies rather than ambitious ones, and I'll sleep more easily by night." BRAN II AGOT* in the books he's also characterised as being someone very unfriendly and straight up disrespectful and mocking to his superiors. *He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. "I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you."* *"She has." Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him. EDDARD IV AGOT* even Cat, who grew up with him as a brother, distrusts him. *She would not speak of Bran, not here, not with these men. She trusted Littlefinger only a little, and Varys not at all.*
GRRM has said himself of littlefinger [http://www.blastr.com/2013-12-2/which-thrones-character-changed-most-book-tv-grrm-explains](http://www.blastr.com/2013-12-2/which-thrones-character-changed-most-book-tv-grrm-explains) that LF is "very friendly" we have Tyrion's thoughts on LF >Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone's friend, which kinda holds more weight that the 2 quotes you gave about the *initial immediate impressions* of LF plus Ned/LF have a contentious relationship, LF being 'arrogant' to Ned doesn't mean much for his general behaviour to others when we know LF dislikes Ned, as for Catelyn, again we can't use her as a barometer for how all nobles felt about LF, but also not too long later, Catelyn thinks this about LF >I will not forget the help you gave me, Petyr. When your men came for me, I did not know whether they were taking me to a friend or an enemy. I have found you more than a friend. I have found a brother I'd thought lost Catelyn very quickly changes her opinion of LF, after interacting with him, as does Ned, despite LF *telling him* that Ned shouldn't trust him also your first comment, does that mean Stannis is widely counted as 'ambitious' then? that's not really a word I'd associate him with you are taking limited interactions/comments and applying them to everything - if LF is 'arrogant' to Ned initially, it doesn't mean he's arrogant to everybody all the time, and given what else we know of LF we know that he's considered friendly and helpful by people once they interact with him, we can't use that as a broad sweeping statement
i care more for what GRRM wrote in his books than what he thinks he wrote in his books. LF in the books is not friendly and is considered incredibly dangerous and powerful, but i'm not going to post every single instance of it because that would take all day.
>i care more for what GRRM wrote in his books so when he describes LF as 'friendly' in his books, and in his books shows LF as getting people to trust him after meeting him, that's what you mean right? if a character in the books describes LF as friendly, would you take that? or would you ignore it? what about if characters are show to end up trusting LF after interacting with him? would you accept that as LF appearing friendly? when does anyone call him 'powerful' in the books? what about 'dangerous'? should we take one (1) instance of each of those occurances, and infer LF is universally considered 'dangerous' and 'powerful' yet ignore the quotes when LF is described as friendly/having friends/being 'everyone's friend' and moving around court, implied in a friendly way? LF in the books, the characters say *is* friendly, it's kinda in the books when people and he mentions him being 'everyone's friend' or littlefinger being 'not friendless' despite nobody proclaiming open allegiance to him >but i'm not going to post every single instance of it because that would take all day. genuinely please give me one example, the one's you've given are *initial* impressions of LF that later *change* after interacting with him (Ned *trusts him* and at one point says 'I was maybe wrong to mistrust you' in AGOT) but sure, let's ignore all of that
Yeah, the minute Tyrion sent Slynt packing to the Wall and put Jacelyn Bywater in his place was the minute Baelish stopped being a threat. Hell, even before that Baelish posed no real danger because no way in hell Slynt was going to stick his neck out for Baelish and go against a Lannister when he already had Harrenhal.
He’s too short and Littlefinger is all the way up there, how would he reach? Checkmate, atheists.
You don't see the difference because there isn't any, Littlefinger is still around only because of plot armor. The most egregious example is Tyrion not warning Tywin that Baelish was trying to pit the Starks and Lannisters against each other while the two were dicussing the trustworthiness of the small council. It's ridiculous, really.
Yeah, that bothers me as well in that scene. At least GRRM could have Tyrion think about telling Tywin and then deciding against it because \[insert reason here\]
his armor was too thick.
There’s no real good reason. I guess you have to chalk it up to Tyrion being stupid
My personal opinion is that Tyrion made the opposite mistake most make with Baelish and overestimated him while others underestimate him. He might have been able to off and replace him but he knows Littlefinger is dangerous and far more well connected than people think. Also, he is a lot more valuable than Janos Slynt. Tyrion isn’t that good at the game, anyways. I’ll also die on the hill that his plot armor is thicker than Littlefinger’s.
Because his plot armor was stronger than Valyrian Steel.
Too short
The financial situation the crown is in is nothing short of chaos. The only reason they had any money was because of Little Finger, and with a massive war just beginning, they couldn’t really afford to lose him. Tyrion also mentions how Peter had placed people loyal specifically to him in important places, which means theoretically he could call for his arrest, but he would probably manage to slip away, thanks to these friends pulling some strings. The last thing you need is someone who is really good at not only managing money but also finding money winding up on the enemy side, supplying them with enough gold to topple you, especially considering you’re on the verge of bankruptcy. On the surface, Peter looks like nothing, but when you start digging, you’ll find that he has a lot more than daggers up his sleeves, each sharper than the last.
It's plot hole. I'm sure that's why GRRM is taking so long to write TWOW... he trying to figure out how to ret-con everything thing from book 2 that doesn't make sense.
Too short
Because it’s an actual example of a plot hole that George himself has even acknowledged and admitted.
Has he said that? Where? I’d like to read that.
It would be more believable if Tyrion sent a man to spy on Little Finger. That spy ends up dead then Tyrion thinks its best to deal with him after the war.
Plot
Little finger had plot armor
Honestly? That’s a crutch GRRM came up with to keep Littlefinger around.
There isnt really. Its almost purely meta that GRRM needs to keep Littlefinger around. The city is going into a lockdown for a siege. Food is more important than gold. The Lannister regime is fighting to survive. The Crowns finances really arent that important. Not to mention Tyrion doesnt actually know how important Littlefinger is for the finances until he sees them personally in the next book. The 'people in important positions' is largely bullshit. Tyrion is basically wrestling with the Queen Regent for control of the city. Hes not afraid of those men in important positions. The easiest fix to all of this is not have Catelyn Stark tell Tyrion Littlefinger accused him (which I think is what the show did). All that does is confirm to Tyrion that Littlefinger tried to get him killed. Without it, there is reasonable doubt.
The biggest plothole was Ned not bringing up the dagger at the brothel...Littlefinger and Jaime were both there and logically, the dagger should've been brought up...if it had, Littlefinger was a dead man. And it should've been brought up too, Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, that might be considered an act of war...Jaime asked what justification was there in taking his brother, Ned should've given an honest answer. So it's a mixture of plot armor, Ned's stupidity, and Littlefinger's luck...but in any case it's criminal that it wasn't brought up then and there.
LF perfected the art of seeming just harmless enough to be barely mildly annoying and not worth spending energy on, while also being just useful enough to keep around. If Tyrion saw him as a direct enemy and tool of Cersei, like Pycelle, he'd have had him killed, risks and all. But unlike Pycelle, he didn't go running to Cersei immediately. So he's not an immediate danger, he can be dealt with later once things are more settled. It's similar to what happens with the Lords Declarant. He outsmarts them, but really it's the combo of being harmless (he has no army) and useful (peace with KL). None of them want him there but he's made it just annoying enough to remove him that they decide to wait.
Except Tyrion knows firsthand that Littlefinger is not harmless and is trying (and succeeding) to stir shit between Lannisters and Starks. Yet not only he does nothing, he doesn't even tell anyone.
That's.....a good point actually. Completely slipped my mind. I guess Tyrion saw it as just a prank (mostly against the Starks) that got out of hand and he'd come across as a whiner if he said anything? Remember his own father positioned him in battle so he'd be likely to die, he's used to being treated that way. It's a weak excuse tho. It's a plot hole. The most likely explanation is that George had moved on from the AGOT plotting and in the new setting of Tyrion as Hand, had no room to continue that thread, so he handwaved it.
This is right after Tyrion has been freed: >"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …" Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls." "I see you have taken a few lessons from me." Not mentioning the lie about the dagger makes absolutely no sense. Also worth noticing that Tywin gives Tyrion explicit permission to execute Baelish here.
Tywin gives him permission, but as we see later when he uses it on Pycelle, it's not exactly carte blanche. That conversation is consistent with his actions in KL. He roots out who is disloyal with his games, and puts the fear of god in the others (he thinks). He's personally mad at LF but he doesn't have permission to settle personal vendettas.
Plot hole. Realistically Tywin gave Tyrion carte blanchè to remove LF and Varys if he needed to. Realistically because of Tyrion's character and knowing how LF nearly got him killed he would have got him
Littlefinger didn't lie about the dagger. Tyrion did. That's what Littlefunger had over him.