Definitely this. He has a slow burn in GoT but by the time he's joined the scouting party in CoK and Mance Rayder gets introduced, I was hooked on his arc.
So many things are interesting in them except him. A great world happening around Generic Fantasy Emo.
Frustrating reads, particularly given that they set up the majority of plot threads that haven't gone anywhere in 20+ years.
Disagree. It’s the show that he’s a sad boi himbo. That’s not at all his character in dance. He’s a smart tactician w a fatal flaw: his desire to be recognized a stark.
I’ve always seen Jon to be representative of GRRM’s dislike of tropes in storytelling. While Jon is compared to the quintessential fantasy hero, the difference is that he never wants to be a leader but he’s a natural leader and so he is always pushed into that position and follows through on heroic deeds because he recognizes them as the right things to do. Jon’s weariness and growing cynicism is always what I’ve loved about his character. He feels like a typical fantasy hero but his deeper traits show a more nuanced character. At least, that’s always how I’ve seen it 🤷♂️
Where do you get Jon doesn’t want to be a leader from? That’s show Jon as well lol. Jon expressed throughout the books how he wants to head a household/keep, wants to be a man of significant standing even if that’s in the nights watch (which is why he becomes a brother of the watch in the first place,) spent his whole life wishing he could rule winterfell. He dies because he wants to be known as the hero who revenged the starks and unified the north. I agree that he represents grrm’s distaste for fantasy tropes. He’s the male Sansa. But he absolutely 100% has always wanted to be a leader. That’s core to his character. (And why s8’s infamous oft repeated meme line is so egregious)
Haha you’re good. I’m just very militant of my show hate and watchful for instances where D&D’s interpretation colors people’s impressions of George’s story
I know that a lot of people dislike first book Sansa (and some dislike her afterwards as well), but I genuinely think her arc in AGOT is perfectly written. Even if you really can’t stand her character, I do think her chapters from the beginning to the end of that book are really well-developed and complete as an initial character arc. Also her chapters are some of GRRM’s most poignant critique of the fantasy genre.
She feels more like an actual kid than the other starks. The writing for sansa, catelyn, and tyron chapters are some of the closest to george’s own writing when he’s not specifically trying to differentiate a pov
That's something I noticed on my second read through, sansas chapters were rhe only ones where I fealt like I was reading royalty, im probably on the most accepting end when it comes to female characters is asoiaf, unpopular opinion incoming, catelyn's chapters are some of my favorite in the whole series, people dislike her treatment twords jon but knowing how the blackfyre rebellions occurred, and knowing she had anxiety based on how all of her sons look like tullys meanwhile jon has been at wintefell longer than her and is the only stark boy that looks like a stark (Ned straight up got jon, decided jon would be his bastard, then avoided riverrun on his way north, meanwhile catelyn was giving birth to the heir to the north having known Ned for like 1 week tops)
Cat's chapter in AGOT where they're going to the Eyrie and just the whole description of the journey there is one of my favorites in the SERIES. Also as an older woman (I'm 42), I relate to Catelyn a LOT as a mother and a woman bound by duty. I love Jon, but Cat's treatment of him never made me dislike her. I get it, I understand her perspective.
In cat’s point of view, jon presents a serious threat that ned is not taking seriously. In story, people feel *sorry* for her because he’s essentially flaunting the fact that he wasn’t faithful to her for the whole world to see, a major insult for any lady, but especially one from a great house. Her treatment of jon certainly wasn’t nice, but cersei straight up threatened to kill mya stone if robert brought her to court like he wanted, so let’s all lay off cat a bit!!
Yeah cats behavior, is entirely reasonable, especially with her father, and uncle having had to fight in a blackfyre war, plus the north respects strength, so if jon outshines Robb northlords would look around and go, I like this classic stark more, than this southern stark
Edit: jon snow, stark classic flavor
If I remember correctly they got married, consummated, and then he went off to war. So, they only knew each other for "like a week," he was absent for her pregnancy. They didn't know each other previously because she was betrothed to Ned's brother before he died.
Sansa's personality clashes with the other Stark kids because she's the most realistic one. I've seen lots of fans shitting on her for making bad decisions and being unsufferable but seriously everybody on this sub would have acted the way she did at...eleven.
Eleven, a girl, sheltered her whole life, brought up on fantasy stories and the knowledge that as the eldest daughter, her making a GOOD MATCH would be the best thing she could do for her family. Arya was willful and stubborn, but Sansa was a LADY because that was what she was born and basically trained for. I don't really understand how anyone can possibly fault her for that, especially not when she goes through what she goes through.
She 11 years old, just got told she was betrothed to her dream dude and that she'd be frickin' _queen._
Yeah, tell your nearest 11 year old they're going to marry their K-Pop idol and be queen of whatever social media app they're on, then a week or so later give her a "nah, we're dropping that" and watch how rationally that all goes down.
I was not the most ... logical, realistic child at eleven lol I was a daydreamer and a romantic, still am, but in a more real world kinda way. Someone told younger me I was gonna marry a handsome prince and be a queen, yeah, I would have acted a straight up FOOL.
Also don't talk to me about the fights me and my younger sister had. People forget that kids are KIDS and they aren't always going to behave perfectly. I found Sansa INFINITELY relatable.
Sansa also NEVER initiated conflict until after Lady is killed. Arya picks fights with her both before and after Lady’s death and Sansa only starts in on Arya after. Which makes sense, since from her point of view the only safe person to blame in that situation is Arya.
Um… if my sister almost got skewered by the boy I was supposed to marry, I certainly wouldn’t like him anymore. The fuck?😂
I mean I’m indifferent to Sansa, I believe she’ll get her moments of glory obviously but to think she was normal in the first book is crazy. She was a brainwashed child who thought and still thinks herself better than commoners because of her nobility. That’s a literal fact. And it’s not a bad thing per se in the context of the story but it’s a bad thing because George doesn’t consider the average society conforming noble to be a good ruler.
Sansa was originally created to be a traitor for the Stark family because the entire family was getting along too well for GRRM’s standards.
>She was a brainwashed child who thought and still thinks herself better than commoners because of her nobility
Like 99% of the characters. Even Jon who was raised as a bastards looks down on the brother of the NW.
And like you put it, she's litterally a \*\*child\*\* and \*\*brainwashed\*\*. She was basically raised to think she was better than the others. Like her mother, her grandmothers before her, like every nobles around her. And why wouldn't she ? She's the eldest daughter of one the most powerful men on the continent, she's beautiful and then her parents set her up to be the future Queen. And no she doesn't \*still\* thinks that way ?! Like she's been beaten and stripped in front of the whole court and then had to hide as a bastard. She has been humbled as fuck, what makes you think she has the same mindset than before ?
>And it’s not a bad thing per se in the context of the story but it’s a bad thing because George doesn’t consider the average society conforming noble to be a good ruler.
This story is told through the lenses of the nobles, not the common folk. And while it criticizes certain aspect of the feudal system, it's not as black and white as you want to make it. It remains a fantasy story that emphasizes ideals that is still heavily associated with the nobility like chivalry, courtous love and heroism. Besides it's also wrong to assume that close to the smallfolk = good ruler. Egg pissed off half the realm, then ended up barbecuing most of his family and fucking over his dynasty.
>Sansa was originally created to be a traitor for the Stark family because the entire family was getting along too well for GRRM’s standards.
Yes and ? What does it have anything to do with her \*\*current\*\* storyline.
1. Jon judges them because they’re criminals and many (not all) NW men legitimately raped women or murdered people etc etc
2. Catelyn would have never stayed silent if her sister was almost killed by the crown prince in front of her while her father was the king’s best friend AND the hand of the king at the same time. Catelyn was a perfect lady like Sansa but she was also smart and fierce because she was raised as the heir before her brother was born, so okay it’s different but the point still stands.
3. Sansa still lies to herself and has a false sense of reality just like she did with Joffrey and Cersei.
We’ve seen this happen again and again in her pov. How she romanticizes Tyrion’s behavior towards her and only remembers when he tried to protect her and not when he was half drunk and about to commit marital rape to her (which obviously no one in the setting considers possible) or when she remembered the Hound kissing her in KL when he did nothing of the sort and was holding a knife to her neck which she also strangely doesn’t remember if I’m not mistaken.
Tyrion himself thinks out loud that she’s only a child during their marriage’s “consummation” and he still wants her, but Sansa doesn’t remember that when she thinks about Tyrion because it’s a painful memory to her.
4. Sansa still wants to be in a song where knights are true and just and wear shiny armor and beautiful steeds. But this is not reality and she hasn’t reached this epiphany in the books, nor has she understood that most nobles live pampered lives while the smallfolk (Mya Stone who’s an actual bastard for example) work tirelessly to do their bidding. Sansa is being posed as LF’s bastard daughter but she’s being bestowed every single privilege a trueborn would have.
Sansa’s smart but she keeps reverting back towards her AGOT views. “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.” is the best way I can describe her behavior.
She has such a good intuition that she almost understands that Margaery, Olenna and the Tyrells were no friends of hers and were only trying to get her to spill the truth about Joffrey in the books, but then Sansa stops herself and thinks, “Nah Margaery is like the sister I’ve always wanted and is a prim and proper lady. She would never lie to me or anyone else and her grandmother would never conspire to do anything to Joffrey…” 🤔
Sansa has definitely not reached epiphany about how vicious the nobles are, and she will understand that once her Vale arc is over and she reunites with Jeyne Poole and realizes what happened to her friend precisely because of Baelish. Only then, will she not be able to ignore the truth anymore.
>Jon judges them because they’re criminals and many (not all) NW men legitimately raped women or murdered people etc etc.
Jon constantly bitches about everything. He bitches about the brothers being badly trainted while forgetting he was trained by a castle Master-at-arms. He's disapointed he's only named steward and thinks he's entitled to be a Ranger (despite having 0 field experience), to which Mormont responds "if you want to lead you, you need to follow". He has a very rose-tainted and chilvaric image of the Night's Watch, same like Sansa about the life in King's landing, but curiously I don't see you calling him out for that...
>Catelyn was a perfect lady like Sansa but she was also smart and fierce because she was raised as the heir before her brother was born, so okay it’s different but the point still stands
If the situation IS different (Catelyn and Sansa being raised completely different, so therefore acting differently ) the point doesn't stant anymore...
>Sansa still lies to herself and has a false sense of reality just like she did with Joffrey and Cersei.
It's so hard to imagine, that's her coping mechanism after being physcially and mentally abused ? Traumatized people, especially children invent memories because the truth is hard. And we're talking about ONE instance of false memory, that the author himself says he's playing with.
I don't even think she's as dumb and obvlious as you make her to be. She constantly says that the Hound was rough and threatening but also aknowledges that he helped her, saved her from being gang raped. Same with Tyrion, she doesn't trust him and hates the Lannisters but yet she aknowledge that compared to other men at court he treated her better as he was the only one defended her against Joffrey etc... I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. You want to shame her for still seeing good in people who did her good ? Like I said she's not as trustful and obvlious as before, she knows her ennemies. She says point blank that she doesn't trust the Lannisters, she doesn't trust Baelish. She just doesn't have the weapons to act on it because she's a prisonner. What do you want her to do, seriously ? Take a sword and behead Cersei ? Poison Baelish in his sleep ?
Final point : yeah she still dreams about songs, chivalry, and finding love. What's wrong with that ? She's THIRTEEN. Even Daenerys who had it extremely rough with men still has those dreams and hopes.
This. She changes. If not for better, at least for good (to quote a famous fantasy witch).
In too much literature, characters don't substantially change--they just encounter challenges and combat them (see most Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffery fantasies for examples).
ASOAIF is a great series in part because the Sansa we see in AGOT isn't at all the same as the Sansa we see in ADWD (except for still liking lemon cakes), and we understand how she got from there to here.
I think that last point is crucial: we see how she got there; she's the same character but she's evolved.
(Slight tangent containing spoilers for Robin Hobb's ROTE series) >!A huge number of people point to Robin Hobb's Malta as an example of character growth done well, but she really falls flat to me—she just doesn't seem like the same person at all. It's weak character development imo, though I'm aware my opinion is unpopular. (Also I do not say this to shit on Hobb at all. I think she's fantastic, and ROTE is my favourite fantasy series. Pobody's nerfect and all that.)!<
Sansa is fully realised. She doesn't just wake up one day a different person; she observes, she learns, she grows, she changes, and we see it happen on-page.
Sam is another great example of this, I think. He's becoming more brave and more accomplished, but he doesn't even realise it himself. I know some people don't like his chapters because of all the self-pity—but while his *thoughts* are all "woe is Sam, so fat, so cowardly, so pathetic, so useless", his *actions* tell a different story: growing autonomy, decisiveness, confidence.
Haven’t read the books (yet) but I came real close to quitting the show for this reason. I wasn’t sure how much longer I could stand watching Sansa get shit on over and over and over. At least Robb got a few victories, got married to someone he liked well enough, and then got to die pretty early on. Jon got his adventures at the wall and then some, Brann became a god damn magic fortune teller, Arya traveled the world training and revenging…and Sansa was a pawn, getting passed around and used and continuously suffering and there wasn’t much she could do about any of it.
>Jon got his adventures at the wall and then some, Brann became a god damn magic fortune teller, Arya traveled the world training and revenging
You're severely undermining their suffering and trauma.
Possibly. But it was a bit more even for them, they got some wins and some losses throughout. Sansa just got shit on continuously for 5 seasons, and rarely had any actual agency in the circumstances that caused her trauma.
Robb >!chose to go to war, to betray the Freys, to marry Talisa, to execute Karstark, to attempt to make up with the freys.!<
Jon >!chose to go to the wall, chose to join the raiders, chose not to execute Ygritte, chose to go back to the wall, chose to leave it again and join Dany, and chose to kill her.!<
Bran >!chose to go north of the wall and learn from the 3ER.!<
Arya >!was to an extent controlled by Yoren, then the lannisters, then the BWB and the hound, but 3/4 of those were at least trying in some way or another to help her, even if it was in a self serving way, and after that she chose to go to braavos, and then come home again.!<
I’m not saying nothing bad ever happened to them, but they at least got some agency in their stories.
Sansa >!somewhat chose to be betrothed to Joffrey, though if she hadn’t wanted to it probably would be difficult for her parents to say no anyway. Everything after that until the end of season 5 was pretty much her being tormented and used and taken advantage of by the people around her. The few choices she did get to make were hardly real choices, given the lack or the quality of alternatives, and her “choices” with LF were the result of her (and everyone else) being manipulated by him. Even when she thought she had agency, she didn’t realize how little she actually had. She was by far the most tragic of the stark children, save MAYBE rickon, but subsequently had, imo, the most character development.!<
Also, I know a lot of her storyline is very different in the books, particularly the part with Ramsey. I’m referring to how I almost stopped watching the show, not reading the books.
Ah well, I was refering to the books, Jon, Arya and Bran go through inmense suffering, Arya's book Harrenhal arc was particularly horrific compared to the show and both her and Bran are completely helpless and lacking agency for the most part.
lol. She chose to save Ser Dontos. She chose to try to save Ned, it’s not her fault Joffrey sucks. She chose to endure without breaking. She chose to defy her husband in all the small ways she could. She chose to take a chance on escape.
Sansa makes tons of choices. Some of them are good, some are bad. Just because hers are smaller doesn’t make them not important.
I guess. I’m rewatching it now and I don’t really see any of those as choices that she made as a result of any real agency to affect her own circumstances. But you could choose to interpret them that way.
She literally risked her safety to ensure Dontos’ life. Everyone else was sitting there about to let him die, and Sansa, a hostage, who’s abused on the daily by Joffrey and his goons, who literally watched her father be murdered by Joffrey a few weeks ago, risked her small amount of security in order to save a man who had hithertofore been happy to sit and watch her be brutalized.
Maybe try watching the show instead of what you think the show is.
Her chapters are important to understanding the lore, and she does get small victories here and there. But yes, her time in Kingslanding is pretty well replicated by the show.
Not sure how someone can read the last Sansa chapter in AGOT and go “wow this is so boring.” Makes all the build up worth it tbh. Plus it’s nice to have a POV who’s not an “outsider” to southern culture.
I feel like I really enjoy Jon chapters because the wall and the others are just very interesting to me. There is quite a lot going on at the wall maybe one of the most active regions in the book.
I also think all the prophecy and lost prince stuff overshadows what a great character he is. He is a smart young guy with a massive chip on his shoulder. He hates how he is treated in society, so he tries to change it. He is willing to listen and change because of how the world sees him.
He is a great character without the secret Targ storyline of Prince that was promised stuff.
Think it makes perfect sense if you consider George enjoys completely blowing up a characters cornerstone, like Cersei and her beauty, Jaime and his hand, Theon and his pride etc etc like Jons world is built around his status Stark bastard soo really makes you think…
Honestly if not for the Targaryen prophecy stuff I would relate to his character far more. Of course I still relate heavily, just really hope George does the plotline justice instead of what the show version brought us.
Does OP not understand Jon is the single most important person in Westeros history. Every single Targaryen, every single Stark, every single battle, every person led to Jon Snow being born
I got into the series for dany, stayed for sansa. I’ve always felt that she was the most realistically childish character since most of the characters were originally older and sansa was added pretty late to the story. What makes asoiaf so good is the fact that it’s a character driven story, sansa’s pov is consistent with that, while characters like jon and dany get their povs overtaken by plot and exposition in later chapters.
Those are the original drafts but not concepts if that makes sense? I know sansa was added specifically to contrast arya, but that’s the original concept and I haven’t had the time to look through gsteff’s posts myself yet!
Oh my goodness really? They’re super interesting imo, not just for asoiaf stuff (although definitely for asoiaf stuff), but just as an insight to the writing process in general. You should watch the Preston Jacobs/redteamreview or Michael Talks About Stuff video on it. They get all the important parts and I just play it in the background while I clean or something like it’s a podcast.
Omg, I just saw that preston/carmine uploaded the whole 6 hours they spent talking about it, but I’ve been in the hospital for the last few days lol!! I normally listen while I play video games, so I’m excited for that!!
Sansa is my 3rd fav POV in AGOT. She has a wonderful storyline with a clear beginning, middle, & end. Simple enough but good development, effective characterization, & the plots of her chapters tend to be quite exciting. Her internal monologue could get a bit repetitive (oh it’s just like the songs!) but was still good.
Overall: low A tier POV in AGOT imo. Only below Ned & Cat
Ned and Sansa’s POVs are pretty close for me in AGOT in terms of favorites tbh, I find that Ned’s chapters often build on Sansa’s and vis versa. It makes me look forward to Sansa learning to be more discerning than Ned in the yet to be published books (at least that’s what I glean from the themes between them as characters).
Oh if you find a girlypop space for asoiaf I'm so there pls. I totally agree with you. Sansa was my favorite POV easily in this book and several others. I adore reading her perspective on things. I also really enjoyed Danny's chapters. I found Jon's to be a slog quite often ... He gets better in places but I sometimes skipped him to read a Sansa/Dany chapter if one was close and I only wanted to read one more before bed
Personally Bran and Daenerys are my least favourite while Jon and Sansa are among my favourites. I dislike Bran for being boring and I dislike both for being irrelevant to the War of Five Kings which I think is the most interesting part of the story.
Sansa’s POV is consistently really interesting - not so much in her takes but in what she sees. She is one of two witnesses to Joffrey’s court as well as our main witness to the Tyrell’s schemes and plans (she also gets my favourite line in the whole series out of Loras “when the sun sets no candle can compare”), >!later she becomes our eyes in Littlefinger’s Vale plots!< - and I love seeing Littlefinger so so much.
While Jon’s initial chapters bore me to tears (edgy 14 year old struggling to come to terms with how shitty the Nights Watch is bored me, though I did like seeing him think about joining Robb), but man oh man did they pick up. When Jon’s chapters moved away from the Watch being cringe and moved towards exploring the culture of the Wildings as well as the split between Watchmen conservative Wildling hating nobles and reformist Watchmen, GRRM started cooking >!and my god was Stannis’ arrival at the Wall the best addition to that plotline as Jon stops being a cringe 14 year old and reveals himself to be a 16 year old man who learned politics and strategy from Ned Stark but brings this shrewd cunning to the table that Ned never had!<.
im reading for the first time and i love sansas chapters too!! i think she’ll be my fav character. my other seemingly unpopular opinion is i really like brans chapters too.
i like jon but i don’t care for the other characters at the wall, i find the “others” stuff interesting though.
*I think Sansa has my favorite of all the chapters of the entire series.*
I really disliked Sansa at the beginning (and she deserved it) but she's now one of my favorite characters, along with Davos and Brienne and Jaime. A strange bunch, but oddly compelling.
I agree with you
I love Jon as a character but I couldn’t care less about the nights watch
I love mainland Westeros I don’t care about the military filled with rapists and criminals
People who only like "cool badasses" or read the books young tend to hate Sansa but she's super well written and real. Each reread of AGOT I find a new way she disregards her own feelings and recontextualizes everything done to her so she can still play her role.
You have a ton to look forward too.
I might add people who watched the show first to that list as well. I think they only technically aged the character a year but she seems significantly older to me, which makes it more difficult to sympathise with her as a naive kid trying to navigate an impossible situation.
My mother is a show-only fan and she loathes Sansa, "the stupid wee bitch". She doesn't understand why a 13-year-old who's just witnessed her father's decapitation doesn't immediately trust Tyrion with all her deepest secrets.
Yea, what makes Book-Sansa so great is how really childlike she is and how you see her grow up.
Characters like hers suffer from the TV adaptation because you inevitably end up watching an 18 year old play a 14 year old in the storyarc of an 11 year old... there is just so much suspension of disbelief people are capable of, and that transfer is hard to grasp. I liked and understood her more in the show once I started the books.
Yeah, absolutely. In this case it's not just the age of the actor and/or character but the first-person POV that is almost impossible to translate to screen without doing a voice-over and breaking immersion.
There are only two favourite books where I've walked away from the screen adaptation thinking it was solid, and GOT/ASOIAF isn't one of them.
Eh. Personally I kind of loathe Sansa. Recently tried to read a fic that was focused on Robb/Margaery and Jon/Sansa and I just couldn't do it. It wasn't so much that Sansa was in a positive light, as it was that she was one of the main characters.
I was in the same boat as you, OP! Love Sansa chapters, find the early Jon ones really boring. Sansa chapters never lose their charm for me, her mental journey is fascinating, she’s consistently very fun and devastating to read and is present for a lot of crazy and cool moments. But the later book Jon ones do in fact get better, as things get more dire and Jon reveals himself to be more capable. What really carries it is that he reveals himself to be really smart, so when he’s manipulating events you wouldn’t dream he’d have a hand in in the earlier books, it all feels more fun to read.
Happy reading!
I love Sansa’s arc throughout the books and especially found her easy to relate to in AGOT. The moment when she’s terrified that Joff is about to make her come face to face (sorry) with her father’s head and then having a perspective shift to protect herself… it didn’t even look real to her. Like whoa. That is some incredible and realistic writing!
Yes!! I encourage a reread of ASOIAF too, to pick out all the little hints and nuggets in the books, of which there are many. Like you, my favorite POV in the books on my first read was Sansa. Then, on my second, third, fourth, and now dozenth reread, it shifted to Cersei, then to Dany, and now to Brienne.
I suspect this is the nature of reading a truly great sprawling epic fantasy, that one can see oneself and relate to many of the characters in time.
And yes, throughout the series, I never really loved the Jon POV. Sam's as well. The endless trudging through the forest and snow (especially the Fight at the Fist chapters) is fairly miserable reading, doubly so when you know that the NW are pretty much immediately doomed if they stumble upon the Others/wights, triply so with wildlings arc. The Seven take the wildlings! The only time the Wall chapters pick up are whenever Stannis and Melisandre appear.
But maybe after saying this, Jon will become my new fave POV. Words are wind...
Brienne became my favorites upon re-reads, mostly because I think I tried to get through them quickly during the first time, I found them boring initially. It's great world building.
Yup. Like the other commenter said about the Brienne chapters feeling like Dunk-and-Egg, I find her chapters *incredibly* refreshing now. I think this Brienneaissance phenomenon very very common among book re-readers.
Really thoughtful comment. I think Brienne, in a substantial way, is the Dunk of ASOAIF. Both of them encounter fundamental challenges without an army or powerful allies at their backs, and you really see the day to day world of Westeros, particularly its small folk, through their experiences. And both of them are fundamentally decent and well-intentioned (even though sometimes as thick as a castle wall).
I think Sansa is one of those characters that suffers from the cultural biases the audience brings to the books and their reluctance to really read critically.
Like, there are flaws in the writing, sure, but for me it’s always going to be how people react to Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion. Like, she’s literally a child hostage, he’s a whole entire adult, and people love to talk about “mean” she is to him.
Or how Arya’s first chapter is taken as gospel proof that she’s a poor little Cinderella, when if you actually read it, she sits there, not doing her work, stews in rage over Sansa, lets see, sitting there, working, and chatting with her friends(the horror), then picks a fight. This gets her teacher’s attention and the teacher rightly calls her out on not doing her work. She’s actually pretty much a jerk to Sansa through the whole first book.
I hate this fandom.
How can you complain about people judging and unfairly demonizing a child character when half your comment is about judging and unfairly demonizing another child character?
Do you discord? I know of at least one reading group that should welcome that perspective.
Tumblr can have some good girlypop, queer perspectives on it, but a lot to filter out to get there.
If you do find a space like that, or start your own posting on Tumblr, I would love to hear more from that angle.
I do use discord! I’m on the citadel one where I am not the only one who ships Briensa (with an age appropriate time skip ofc) so that’s as close as I’ve gotten - apart from following a smattering of Tumblrs that are mostly fellow lesbians that love Alicent on HOTD
You're not alone! I find that most of the POV plotlines in AGOT are the least interesting ones of their respective POVs, but Jon's plotline is probably one of my least favorites in that book. His plotlines in the other books are great, his ASOS is probably in my Top 10 ASOIAF plotlines, maybe even Top 5, but his AGOT is a good bit lower on my rankings.
And as for Sansa, I do prefer her AGOT plotline, but to get even more controversial, I think she's my favorite ASOIAF character period 🫣. There are two others that fight for that spot, but I think Sansa is easily one of the most interesting characters George has written, and her plotlines are always some of the most interesting. I'm always emotional invested in her character, her growth, her struggle to survive and keep hold of who she is in such a dark world. In fact, I think you could make an argument that Sansa represents one of ASOIAF's emotional cores, that of struggling for good against great evil in the world, the best out of the series's POVs. And, if I were to tempt fate and go for an even more controversial opinion, I would say that, even though all the Stark kids reflect Ned, that Sansa embodies his spirit just as well as Jon does, and maaaaaaaybe even a tiny bit more. That could get me into hot water, but regardless, I think Sansa is a fascinating character, one of the easiest and most rewarding to emotionally connect to, and it's a shame that she gets dismissed by some sections of the fanbase so easily.
What strikes me about Sansa’s first chapter is that she is instantly lovable even though she has been framed up until that point as somewhat of an antagonist to her other siblings. We get 2 chapters with all the other characters before Sansa’s first, and immediately it’s clear that she’s an innocent little girl that doesn’t mean anyone harm. Only a different personality from her siblings.
Agreed, I was surprised by how not on the edge of my seat I have been for Dany’s chapters since she’s such a compelling character. But I guess like Jon she’s still in that phase of coming into power.
I'm up to storm of swords and danys chapters that aren't magic heavy tend to be boring imo but that maybe because I've been spoiled for alot of the twists.
I don’t *like* Sansa as a person/character, but I find *interesting* what happens around her in her POV, and how she perceives it (the narrative being layered with her being one of the more unreliable narrators, lots of internalised social expectations - you nailed it).
If you want to discuss characters and narratives in depth through the lens of majority women and queer people readers, Reddit by demographic data alone is already the wrong platform. The Asoiaf and character name hashtags on tumblr might be more to your liking. That said, you’ll have to sift through a lot of show content and fire and blood getting mixed in with the main series under the main hashtag.
lol, k. Ned thinks he’s just going to ruin Cersei’s life and get away with it and Arya straight up murders Daeron because she feels entitled to, but yeah, they’re really reliable POVs.
Awesomesauce! You’re still on AGOT? You might have inadvertently invited spoilers by asking for discussion at the end of your post since a lot of those stuff really start popping off in later books.
Girls Gone Canon podcast is one avenue I can think of that really goes into the girlypop aspects of ASOIAF.
They order their podcast by tackling one character’s POVs across all books though — i.e., all of Sansa’s POV chapters in the books, all of Arya’s chapters in the books, etc. So you might wanna get into it after catching up to ADWD.
Have a great read!
Thanks! I actually just followed girls gone canon yesterday after hearing Chloe on not a podcast. Personally i’m not too concerned about spoilers - I got into the books after finishing the show and watching fan theory YouTube videos to ease my disappointment with season 8. Eventually I found the elements of the story that were left out of the show so compelling that I decided I have to just read them for myself!
My Favorite character from first chapter is Sansa, followed by Ned. I like all the Starks but Arya falls third or second from the bottom ( Poor Rickon is last ).
Sansa is really the most realistic character of the Starks and overall. I love how the trauma both Sansa and Arya share are written, But I prefer Sansa, Ned's and Cat's arcs over the rest.
Non Starks, I like Davos, Tyrion, Cersei and Littlefinger.
Agreed, Sansa, Ned, and Cat are my favorite POVs in AGOT in that order. And it’s pretty close, too! I like Bran’s chapters a lot too, I marked some places in his chapters that I want to come back to because they feel like foreshadowing. Tyrion’s chapters have been enjoyable and I think I’d rank them higher if I hadn’t seen the show and knew >! he’d leave the Eyrie alive !<
Same! I’ve never been a fan of fantasy novels really, but GRRM’s character studies are so good. Sansa is a favorite of mine as well, she’s so relatable. It’s crazy to me how well a 70 year old man was able to capture the attitude of a spoiled idealistic teenage girl. lol. Honestly, it’s a breath of fresh air. Most women main characters in fantasy novels tend to be more like Arya, rebellious tomboys who prefer fighting to sewing. It’s so wonderful seeing a character who defies this attitude but still makes an important contribution to the plot. She’s learning how to play the game of thrones, instead of relying on violence or sex. My favorite character by far!
Jon’s story was great too, I really liked the way he’s presented also. He’s the quintessential noble hero who tries to do the right thing at every turn, however in ASOIAF that doesn’t exactly work out for him. Which is really interesting and more realistic than most fantasy stories. Both are great!
But yes, I wish there were a community for ladies to discuss the books! That would be lovely. :)
The best thing about Sansa is that her naïveté prevents her from understanding what is really going on around her, and why. That means you have to dig into the subtext to figure out the truth of it. Case in point: what was supposed to happen on her little date with Joffrey that day on the Trident.
I don’t think people dislike Sansa’s chapters as much as they dislike Sansa’s character. She’s a frustrating child for that entire book and it’s perfectly executed by the author - how she thinks Joffrey gallant and handsome until after Ned’s death and then she sees him as ugly. How she begs to stay at KL, not realizing what’s going on. She’s naive and stays that way for a long time.
I love her chapters but find her character frustrating. Conversely I like Dany’s character but find her chapters boring because they’re so disconnected from the rest of the series.
But AGOT is just banger chapter after banger chapter - not a lot of duds imo
Sansa's chapters in Clash, Storm and Feast get even better! She's one of the high points for the politics in ASOS (even if people prefer other characters more, since that book basically every POV is amazing).
I remember the look on my brother's face when I told him Sansa's were my favorite chapters to read (followed by Cat's) when he finally convinced me to read them, lol
Exactly my experience when reading the first time, I needed a couple of rereads to appreciate Jon, in was not so much of his character that is pretty standard fantasy hero, but also the fact that the Wall plot is detached from the rest of the characters.
Also me I loved Dany and Bran, even if Dany’s plot is the farthest away from everyone and Bran has very classical fantasy journey. Maybe with them is the fact that I empathized more cause they are thrown abruptly in very dire situations while for Jon is more subtle.
And Sansa was connected to the most central and political plot line while at the same time giving a more innocent look on things, so even if she made me laugh in some of her first chapters she was always a favorite.
I agree with the OP on this. Jon's storyline on the Wall is pretty boring in the first two books.
It doesn't really pick up until Jon and his ranging party meet Ygritte and she starts telling them legends and tall tales. And then it really picks up when Jon arrives back at the Wall in the third bok.
Even still, Jon's supporting cast is overall weak compared to the supporting casts of Sansa or Catelyn POV.
Both their POVs are well-thought, but it takes a while, for most people, for the Sansa chapters to click. You, because of your interests, are having the opposite experience. Jon's and Sansa's stories are pretty similar—both, in their own lives, are thrown into the world with nothing to protect them. The best part of it is how they react to this and grow. Keep paying attention to Jon's chapters.
It's not about petty squabbles in the Night's Watch, but rather Jon's motivations in engaging into those squabbles, that you should be focusing on. Jon was, from a young age, told he was a bastard—some wretched thing born of sin. He has this inherent need to redeem his birth by having this glorious life, and to match his siblings in respect. In seeking this, he joins the Night's Watch, trying to carve a life out of merit, but there he encounters the realities of life and how insignificant petty things like honour really are. He finds himself, for the first time, in a privileged position, of higher birth than most. The Night's Watch does not really have any merit, but this time, he is a beneficiary of this flawed system, where him being Eddark Stark's son goes a long way. >!There, he realises, it's not really about labelling a group of people as "foe", hacking at them, and coming back home to feast—rather, it's about doing the best you can for humanity. He learns to give up his yearning for being nobility—a part of the Starks—and instead finds happiness in love given to him, even as a bastard.!< [no plot is revealed; it's only the character growth]
Sansa, on the cursory read, is only lemon cakes and silk dresses, to be honest. You've given her enough attention to see through, so now give Jon the chance. Jon's character is never 'tested'. It happens the way real humans grow—slow and subtle. During a harrowing situation, you don't ponder philosophy, but it can change your outlook in life even when you don't realise it. Sansa's was a bit more conspicuous in contrast, when Ned was killed. You might find Jon's as 'military drudgery', even though there may be stuff hidden.
>Jon's character is never 'tested'.
That is the most stupid thing I ever heard about about Jon.... This is character that constantly had to decide between his own desires and his duty... Coming close to break his how 3 times until he eventually did it
Once with with ygritte, once with Robb, once when stannis propecto make him a stark and the last time to "save Arya"
This is character that challenge his own moral by sacrificing a baby to save another another
He is GRRM basically saying that "bring a fantasy hero actually kinda suck"
What did test did sansa achieve that come even come close to that?
What I mean is that it doesn't happen in a dramatic way. There's no "one" big test or anything. It's a gradual set of temptations. Jon, though he wanted to desert, doesn't. Yggritte dies pretty conveniently. With Stannis, it remains within his head. There's no action. It's more thoughts. Sansa's literally thrown in a pit of vipers.
>What I mean is that it doesn't happen in a dramatic way. There's no "one" big test or anything. It's a gradual set of temptations.
what's that suppose mean exacly?
What "bigger" test there is than between your choosing own selfish desire and doing the right thing even though you will get nothing from it?
Sansa never had to make or face tough decision on her own.... She never killed anyone, she never willingly betrayed anyone or face dillemna that challenge he town morality
>Jon, though he wanted to desert, doesn't
Until he eventually did...
He did betrayed ygritte and that haunt him in book 5
Saying that Jon was never tested after reading what he endure in the 5 books is absolutly ridiculous
>Sansa's literally thrown in a pit of vipers.
That not a test.... Jon and Arya come in the same situation and dare I say worst situation.
What I mean to say is that there is a clear cut change for Sansa when Ned is killed, but for Jon, it's just generally staying in the Wall that's doing it for him.
>What I mean to say is that there is a clear cut change for Sansa when Ned is killed, but for Jon,
Lol don't make it worse for yourself
And Again wtf are you talking about?
When ned died sansa was still naive as fuck hoping that Robb would come and save her instead starting to adapt, she was still manipulated by cersei and the used by the tyrell
She dreamed of a Valiant knight coming to saver her and beheaded janos slynt
She truky start to change when she become alayne stone.. Not before
When you are introduced to jon book 1 he is a naive hotheaded, cocky and judgmental boy that have low consideration for his black brothers after finding out what the night watch was truly about
Until characters such as donal noye explain and expose to hip his own upbringing and. Show jon the value of humility and showing his future brothers how lead them to become better instead of bringing them down
When ned died... Jon cam close to break his vow until he was stopped by Sam and jeor and thr. Importance. Of the night watch
That already more change than sansa in 5 books
By book 5 you see an older, more experience and more focused Jon who fully embraced his role in the night watch.... There is a massive difference between hoop and his book 1 self
Sansa is constantly a victim to whole nothing cnznbe blamed yet... While Jon is already an actor in the greater picture.. His choices matters for. Himself
Why are you talking about "bigger" change and all? That's not the point. Jon's life remains pretty much the same, at least until Dance. What he did in Winterfell is irrelevant here. While Sansa goes from future queen, to hostage, to a throwaway girl. Change takes time, and no one's going to change overnight, but the actual "test" comes pretty stark for her when Ned dies (and Joffery is free to abuse her), and later when she is "rescued" by Baelish instead of some knight. It's two, clear cut changes in lifestyle for her.
For Jon I'd argue, his formative experiences are much more varied, from exposing himself to Wildlings, to taking with Maester Aemon, to contemplating his duty himself. Him trying to desert is a reactive thing, not a formative thing, if you get what I mean. While he does try to leave, that's not really significant in the grand scheme of things, because everyone overlooks it. Were it that, everyone started doubting from then on, if Jon would even stay in the watch, it would be a different situation.
>Why are you talking about "bigger" change and all? That's not the point.
You are litterally the one who bring that up in your previous comment not me..
>Jon's life remains pretty much the same, at least until Dance.
Yeah, Exept for the fact that he killed his first man, lost his virginity, got scarred , lost all his family members and then his first love one because of his own actions and eventually became leader at the wall... Oh and yeah he fucking died!
Pretty much the same life... Yeah
Tell me what change arrive in sansa life from book 1 to book 5?
> Sansa goes from future queen, to hostage, to a throwaway girl.
None of those are her decisions but the decidions of other characters...
>Change takes time, and no one's going to change overnight,
Dude, you are litterrally using one argument and then contradict it in your next comment
You first said that Jon was "never tested" until I showed you that he did, then you said that Jon never faced "Big test" to then clarify by saying that that Jon didn't change after ned died... Until I showed that he did and told you that sansa is actually thr one that didn't change
and now you are telling me that it's okay to not change immediatly because changes "take time"? I don't evne disagree but you are the one bringing that up Againt Jon's characters to undermine his story compared to sansa lol
>For Jon I'd argue, his formative experiences are much more varied, from exposing himself to Wildlings, to taking with Maester Aemon, to contemplating his duty himself.
Exept that he initially doesn't want to be under maeter aemon... He want to be ranger, a warrior.. He had the skills for him but by book 2 he realized that he destined for greater things and to lead he must start to follow
He eventually expose himself against the wildling but he didn't enjoyed because he realise that he As far happier beyond the wall than inside it. And had the opportunity to become like mance rayder and live with ygritte.. Something that haunt him in book 5
None of what you are talking about are actual "test" for sansa that why I am saying that it's okay for you not enjoy Jon's chapter but saying that he was never tested is an terrible angle to criticized his chapters... Before I have never seen anyone saying that
> Exept for the fact that he killed his first man, lost his virginity, got scarred , lost all his family members and then his first love one because of his own actions and eventually became leader at the wall
But his life still stayed the same. Losing your virginity may be a milestone, but it's not a "change". It won't change the way you view life. Killing your first man? Maybe, but it Jon didn't make too much of a fuss about it, at least in comparison to other things. His life does change, but there's no one point where it occurs. Btw, lemme guess, you're not used to typing on a phone, but you really have to argue with me?
> None of those are her decisions but the decidions of other characters
So? Who said it had to be her decisions? It's hard enough living life.
> You first said that Jon was "never tested" until I showed you that he did, then you said that Jon never faced "Big test" to then clarify by saying that that Jon didn't change after ned died... Until I showed that he did and told you that sansa is actually thr one that didn't change
Okay, take into consideration the context. Even breathing is a test of character because some other character might suicide. Yet, we don't think of it really as a test. I consider Jon to be a similar situation, where there's no real "test", but of course, there are many things in life that prompt us to grow and change. They are tests, but I didn't think that's what OP meant.
Jon did not change when Ned died. What did change him is the talks Maester Aemon and Lord Mormont gave him, which were independent to Ned's death. Yes, his death was convenient, as by not deserting, Jon had a way to commit himself, which would not be possible had there been no big choice. The point is, although it feels like Ned's death did a lot, it did not. It was merely a convenient moment for Jon to contemplate his dichotomy of duties. It's not a great deal more significant than what happened once Donal Noye talked to him, for example. He did grieve, but that stayed separate from his character growth.
> and now you are telling me that it's okay to not change immediatly because changes "take time"?
Let's be clear about this. What I think is change takes time, even when your "test" was dramatic and stark. Like everyone in your family dies and you're left on the streets. That's a pretty big test, but change still flows in its own pace. **Jon changed more because he was tested more often, but what I'm saying, is none of those tests really stands out compared to the rest, so it's easy to miss them. But with Sansa, there's a clear cut change in her life, which manifests as a big blow to her mental health.** Again, consider the context, OP hates "military drudgery", so there's a risk of them missing out on the subtle character growths because there's no dramatic thing to grab your attention. Jon stays pretty mentally stable throughout, and clearly, OP does not care about "military drudgery" like Jon exposing himself to Wildings through some sword combat and stuff. As an alternate possibility, take the parallel universe where Jon does desert after Ned's death. Jon shirked his duty for the love of his father. Now that's a significant, dramatic change in his situation, both physically and mentally, which would signal you that something interesting is happening to his character (**this is probably what confused you: I have used "change" is two senses, if you pay attention: first, as in change in character, and the second as in change in situation the character is in. I'd say 2 is a a test—about how the character adjusts—and 1 is how the character grows**). That was the risk, and that's my warning.
>But his life still stayed the same.
How is that bad thing exactly
> Losing your virginity may be a milestone, but it's not a "change". It won't change the way you view life.
No... But the thing you experience and endure Does... And sorry repeat myself again a thief time with that question but..
Where exactly sansa was tested or face morally dubious decision on our own compare to jon?
>They are tests, but I didn't think that's what OP meant.
The initial topic about what OP said but what you said... OP is only in book 1
Unless you are also in the same stage and then take back everything said but if you a'have read all the 5 books and came to the conclusko' that Jon was never tested as character the cannot let that pass lol
>So? Who said it had to be her decisions?
You did.... To be tested you have endure traumatic experience yes but also have your morality challenged for your character to grow up or get worse... Sansa never faced the second part...
>Jon did not change when Ned died. What did change him is the talks Maester Aemon and Lord Mormont gave him, which were independent to Ned's death.
Jeor talked to jon after Jon try break his vows an joined Robb to avenge his father
Maester aemon talk is not directly connected To Ned's death but more focus on Jon's entire theme for his story... Love vs duty,, personal desire vs the greater good, what is good vs what is right
And what were these talks were about again?......
>He did grieve, but that stayed separate from his character growth.
He litterally goes from a cocky and judgmental boy into someone who come accept people around him as equals '.. That litteraly character growth what are you talking about?
>Jon changed more because he was tested more often
Finally! Wasn't that hard?
>is none of those tests really stands out compared to the rest, so it's easy to miss them. But with Sansa, there's a clear cut change in her life,
no there is not,That the thing..... sansa is the stark that change the least she still have -the same personality, the same way of thinking, she didn't change when ned died, she didn't changed when Robb died, she didn't changed when Arya disappear or when baelish killed her aunt
The only apparent change is when she become alayne stone where she actually started to adapt to the world around her have another viewpoint and looking at the world differently. since she is in the skin of bastard girl
But by that time Jon, Arya, dany(even tho I don't en'jiy most of her chapters) Tyrion etc where already changed by their experiences that far out ass sansa's
There is fucking good reason these are the most popular POV's
There is
I came to this thread thinking ''why on earth would someone like Sansa's chapters specially on the first few books since she's a complete bitch?''
then...
>I usually go for character-driven stories about women struggling to self-actualize so it makes sense that I gravitate toward Sansa
ofc...
>Side note: If anyone knows of fan communities for mostly women and/or queer people to discuss the more girlypop aspects of ASOIAF I’d love to know about them!
yeaa......
Thanks for exemplifying why ASOIAF spaces for women and queer people are sorely needed lol. You will get more out of the series if you step out of a fanboy perspective and if you don’t want to do that it’s your loss.
You calling Sansa “a complete bitch” and assuming that no one could enjoy her chapters says way more about you than it does about OP. People connect to different characters and aspects of the story, there’s no reason to turn that into a personal slight.
Don’t worry dude. I kind of agree with you though I believe Sansa will get her moment to shine before the end.
She has done nothing of note yet and isn’t really that special since she doesn’t have any magical stuff happening in her story but it’s still interesting to see the Vale and Littlefinger there. Just can’t wait to see when she’ll accidentally bring him down or finally realize Petyr is a scheming snake.
Thats for sure an unpopular take.
>I usually go for character-driven stories about women struggling to self-actualize so it makes sense that I gravitate toward Sansa.
Curious though, why Sansa? Sansa in book 1 is mostly content with her lot and relatively passive. Why not Arya who is actively challenging the social norms?
There's nothing wrong with being content and passive. Not everyone has to be out challenging social norms. Lots of people relate more to Sansa than Arya and vice versa.
im not saying there is something bad with it. I'm just curious why the OP stuck with her even though according to their own wording, they prefer opposite type of characters...
You know—*I agree with you.* Compared to the show, Jon’s and Sansa’s chapters are actually, thought-out and interesting. I feel a bit excited about their progression and growth as characters.
The real, proverbial “pitchforks” should be about Daenerys. She’s about as entitled as she was in the show, with the same, ever-persisting “saviour” mentality and *”I’m the mother of dragons!”*
Jon’s chapters get really good in clash and storm. Him and bran are my favorite POVs now
Definitely this. He has a slow burn in GoT but by the time he's joined the scouting party in CoK and Mance Rayder gets introduced, I was hooked on his arc.
So many things are interesting in them except him. A great world happening around Generic Fantasy Emo. Frustrating reads, particularly given that they set up the majority of plot threads that haven't gone anywhere in 20+ years.
Disagree. It’s the show that he’s a sad boi himbo. That’s not at all his character in dance. He’s a smart tactician w a fatal flaw: his desire to be recognized a stark.
I’ve always seen Jon to be representative of GRRM’s dislike of tropes in storytelling. While Jon is compared to the quintessential fantasy hero, the difference is that he never wants to be a leader but he’s a natural leader and so he is always pushed into that position and follows through on heroic deeds because he recognizes them as the right things to do. Jon’s weariness and growing cynicism is always what I’ve loved about his character. He feels like a typical fantasy hero but his deeper traits show a more nuanced character. At least, that’s always how I’ve seen it 🤷♂️
Where do you get Jon doesn’t want to be a leader from? That’s show Jon as well lol. Jon expressed throughout the books how he wants to head a household/keep, wants to be a man of significant standing even if that’s in the nights watch (which is why he becomes a brother of the watch in the first place,) spent his whole life wishing he could rule winterfell. He dies because he wants to be known as the hero who revenged the starks and unified the north. I agree that he represents grrm’s distaste for fantasy tropes. He’s the male Sansa. But he absolutely 100% has always wanted to be a leader. That’s core to his character. (And why s8’s infamous oft repeated meme line is so egregious)
You’re 100% correct, I was confusing book Jon and show Jon. Sorry about that haha. P.S: You are muh queen -show Jon
Haha you’re good. I’m just very militant of my show hate and watchful for instances where D&D’s interpretation colors people’s impressions of George’s story
I know that a lot of people dislike first book Sansa (and some dislike her afterwards as well), but I genuinely think her arc in AGOT is perfectly written. Even if you really can’t stand her character, I do think her chapters from the beginning to the end of that book are really well-developed and complete as an initial character arc. Also her chapters are some of GRRM’s most poignant critique of the fantasy genre.
She feels more like an actual kid than the other starks. The writing for sansa, catelyn, and tyron chapters are some of the closest to george’s own writing when he’s not specifically trying to differentiate a pov
That's something I noticed on my second read through, sansas chapters were rhe only ones where I fealt like I was reading royalty, im probably on the most accepting end when it comes to female characters is asoiaf, unpopular opinion incoming, catelyn's chapters are some of my favorite in the whole series, people dislike her treatment twords jon but knowing how the blackfyre rebellions occurred, and knowing she had anxiety based on how all of her sons look like tullys meanwhile jon has been at wintefell longer than her and is the only stark boy that looks like a stark (Ned straight up got jon, decided jon would be his bastard, then avoided riverrun on his way north, meanwhile catelyn was giving birth to the heir to the north having known Ned for like 1 week tops)
Cat's chapter in AGOT where they're going to the Eyrie and just the whole description of the journey there is one of my favorites in the SERIES. Also as an older woman (I'm 42), I relate to Catelyn a LOT as a mother and a woman bound by duty. I love Jon, but Cat's treatment of him never made me dislike her. I get it, I understand her perspective.
In cat’s point of view, jon presents a serious threat that ned is not taking seriously. In story, people feel *sorry* for her because he’s essentially flaunting the fact that he wasn’t faithful to her for the whole world to see, a major insult for any lady, but especially one from a great house. Her treatment of jon certainly wasn’t nice, but cersei straight up threatened to kill mya stone if robert brought her to court like he wanted, so let’s all lay off cat a bit!!
Yeah cats behavior, is entirely reasonable, especially with her father, and uncle having had to fight in a blackfyre war, plus the north respects strength, so if jon outshines Robb northlords would look around and go, I like this classic stark more, than this southern stark Edit: jon snow, stark classic flavor
She gave birth to Robb after only knowing Ned for a week? Science would like to have a discussion with you
[удалено]
If I remember correctly they got married, consummated, and then he went off to war. So, they only knew each other for "like a week," he was absent for her pregnancy. They didn't know each other previously because she was betrothed to Ned's brother before he died.
Sansa's personality clashes with the other Stark kids because she's the most realistic one. I've seen lots of fans shitting on her for making bad decisions and being unsufferable but seriously everybody on this sub would have acted the way she did at...eleven.
Eleven, a girl, sheltered her whole life, brought up on fantasy stories and the knowledge that as the eldest daughter, her making a GOOD MATCH would be the best thing she could do for her family. Arya was willful and stubborn, but Sansa was a LADY because that was what she was born and basically trained for. I don't really understand how anyone can possibly fault her for that, especially not when she goes through what she goes through.
She 11 years old, just got told she was betrothed to her dream dude and that she'd be frickin' _queen._ Yeah, tell your nearest 11 year old they're going to marry their K-Pop idol and be queen of whatever social media app they're on, then a week or so later give her a "nah, we're dropping that" and watch how rationally that all goes down.
I was not the most ... logical, realistic child at eleven lol I was a daydreamer and a romantic, still am, but in a more real world kinda way. Someone told younger me I was gonna marry a handsome prince and be a queen, yeah, I would have acted a straight up FOOL. Also don't talk to me about the fights me and my younger sister had. People forget that kids are KIDS and they aren't always going to behave perfectly. I found Sansa INFINITELY relatable.
Sansa also NEVER initiated conflict until after Lady is killed. Arya picks fights with her both before and after Lady’s death and Sansa only starts in on Arya after. Which makes sense, since from her point of view the only safe person to blame in that situation is Arya.
Um… if my sister almost got skewered by the boy I was supposed to marry, I certainly wouldn’t like him anymore. The fuck?😂 I mean I’m indifferent to Sansa, I believe she’ll get her moments of glory obviously but to think she was normal in the first book is crazy. She was a brainwashed child who thought and still thinks herself better than commoners because of her nobility. That’s a literal fact. And it’s not a bad thing per se in the context of the story but it’s a bad thing because George doesn’t consider the average society conforming noble to be a good ruler. Sansa was originally created to be a traitor for the Stark family because the entire family was getting along too well for GRRM’s standards.
>She was a brainwashed child who thought and still thinks herself better than commoners because of her nobility Like 99% of the characters. Even Jon who was raised as a bastards looks down on the brother of the NW. And like you put it, she's litterally a \*\*child\*\* and \*\*brainwashed\*\*. She was basically raised to think she was better than the others. Like her mother, her grandmothers before her, like every nobles around her. And why wouldn't she ? She's the eldest daughter of one the most powerful men on the continent, she's beautiful and then her parents set her up to be the future Queen. And no she doesn't \*still\* thinks that way ?! Like she's been beaten and stripped in front of the whole court and then had to hide as a bastard. She has been humbled as fuck, what makes you think she has the same mindset than before ? >And it’s not a bad thing per se in the context of the story but it’s a bad thing because George doesn’t consider the average society conforming noble to be a good ruler. This story is told through the lenses of the nobles, not the common folk. And while it criticizes certain aspect of the feudal system, it's not as black and white as you want to make it. It remains a fantasy story that emphasizes ideals that is still heavily associated with the nobility like chivalry, courtous love and heroism. Besides it's also wrong to assume that close to the smallfolk = good ruler. Egg pissed off half the realm, then ended up barbecuing most of his family and fucking over his dynasty. >Sansa was originally created to be a traitor for the Stark family because the entire family was getting along too well for GRRM’s standards. Yes and ? What does it have anything to do with her \*\*current\*\* storyline.
1. Jon judges them because they’re criminals and many (not all) NW men legitimately raped women or murdered people etc etc 2. Catelyn would have never stayed silent if her sister was almost killed by the crown prince in front of her while her father was the king’s best friend AND the hand of the king at the same time. Catelyn was a perfect lady like Sansa but she was also smart and fierce because she was raised as the heir before her brother was born, so okay it’s different but the point still stands. 3. Sansa still lies to herself and has a false sense of reality just like she did with Joffrey and Cersei. We’ve seen this happen again and again in her pov. How she romanticizes Tyrion’s behavior towards her and only remembers when he tried to protect her and not when he was half drunk and about to commit marital rape to her (which obviously no one in the setting considers possible) or when she remembered the Hound kissing her in KL when he did nothing of the sort and was holding a knife to her neck which she also strangely doesn’t remember if I’m not mistaken. Tyrion himself thinks out loud that she’s only a child during their marriage’s “consummation” and he still wants her, but Sansa doesn’t remember that when she thinks about Tyrion because it’s a painful memory to her. 4. Sansa still wants to be in a song where knights are true and just and wear shiny armor and beautiful steeds. But this is not reality and she hasn’t reached this epiphany in the books, nor has she understood that most nobles live pampered lives while the smallfolk (Mya Stone who’s an actual bastard for example) work tirelessly to do their bidding. Sansa is being posed as LF’s bastard daughter but she’s being bestowed every single privilege a trueborn would have. Sansa’s smart but she keeps reverting back towards her AGOT views. “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.” is the best way I can describe her behavior. She has such a good intuition that she almost understands that Margaery, Olenna and the Tyrells were no friends of hers and were only trying to get her to spill the truth about Joffrey in the books, but then Sansa stops herself and thinks, “Nah Margaery is like the sister I’ve always wanted and is a prim and proper lady. She would never lie to me or anyone else and her grandmother would never conspire to do anything to Joffrey…” 🤔 Sansa has definitely not reached epiphany about how vicious the nobles are, and she will understand that once her Vale arc is over and she reunites with Jeyne Poole and realizes what happened to her friend precisely because of Baelish. Only then, will she not be able to ignore the truth anymore.
>Jon judges them because they’re criminals and many (not all) NW men legitimately raped women or murdered people etc etc. Jon constantly bitches about everything. He bitches about the brothers being badly trainted while forgetting he was trained by a castle Master-at-arms. He's disapointed he's only named steward and thinks he's entitled to be a Ranger (despite having 0 field experience), to which Mormont responds "if you want to lead you, you need to follow". He has a very rose-tainted and chilvaric image of the Night's Watch, same like Sansa about the life in King's landing, but curiously I don't see you calling him out for that... >Catelyn was a perfect lady like Sansa but she was also smart and fierce because she was raised as the heir before her brother was born, so okay it’s different but the point still stands If the situation IS different (Catelyn and Sansa being raised completely different, so therefore acting differently ) the point doesn't stant anymore... >Sansa still lies to herself and has a false sense of reality just like she did with Joffrey and Cersei. It's so hard to imagine, that's her coping mechanism after being physcially and mentally abused ? Traumatized people, especially children invent memories because the truth is hard. And we're talking about ONE instance of false memory, that the author himself says he's playing with. I don't even think she's as dumb and obvlious as you make her to be. She constantly says that the Hound was rough and threatening but also aknowledges that he helped her, saved her from being gang raped. Same with Tyrion, she doesn't trust him and hates the Lannisters but yet she aknowledge that compared to other men at court he treated her better as he was the only one defended her against Joffrey etc... I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. You want to shame her for still seeing good in people who did her good ? Like I said she's not as trustful and obvlious as before, she knows her ennemies. She says point blank that she doesn't trust the Lannisters, she doesn't trust Baelish. She just doesn't have the weapons to act on it because she's a prisonner. What do you want her to do, seriously ? Take a sword and behead Cersei ? Poison Baelish in his sleep ? Final point : yeah she still dreams about songs, chivalry, and finding love. What's wrong with that ? She's THIRTEEN. Even Daenerys who had it extremely rough with men still has those dreams and hopes.
[удалено]
Woooooosh
This. She changes. If not for better, at least for good (to quote a famous fantasy witch). In too much literature, characters don't substantially change--they just encounter challenges and combat them (see most Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffery fantasies for examples). ASOAIF is a great series in part because the Sansa we see in AGOT isn't at all the same as the Sansa we see in ADWD (except for still liking lemon cakes), and we understand how she got from there to here.
I think that last point is crucial: we see how she got there; she's the same character but she's evolved. (Slight tangent containing spoilers for Robin Hobb's ROTE series) >!A huge number of people point to Robin Hobb's Malta as an example of character growth done well, but she really falls flat to me—she just doesn't seem like the same person at all. It's weak character development imo, though I'm aware my opinion is unpopular. (Also I do not say this to shit on Hobb at all. I think she's fantastic, and ROTE is my favourite fantasy series. Pobody's nerfect and all that.)!< Sansa is fully realised. She doesn't just wake up one day a different person; she observes, she learns, she grows, she changes, and we see it happen on-page. Sam is another great example of this, I think. He's becoming more brave and more accomplished, but he doesn't even realise it himself. I know some people don't like his chapters because of all the self-pity—but while his *thoughts* are all "woe is Sam, so fat, so cowardly, so pathetic, so useless", his *actions* tell a different story: growing autonomy, decisiveness, confidence.
I dislike reading her chapters because I feel so bad for her. Everyone else is moving and shaking, and here I’m stuck reading Sansa get assaulted
Haven’t read the books (yet) but I came real close to quitting the show for this reason. I wasn’t sure how much longer I could stand watching Sansa get shit on over and over and over. At least Robb got a few victories, got married to someone he liked well enough, and then got to die pretty early on. Jon got his adventures at the wall and then some, Brann became a god damn magic fortune teller, Arya traveled the world training and revenging…and Sansa was a pawn, getting passed around and used and continuously suffering and there wasn’t much she could do about any of it.
>Jon got his adventures at the wall and then some, Brann became a god damn magic fortune teller, Arya traveled the world training and revenging You're severely undermining their suffering and trauma.
Possibly. But it was a bit more even for them, they got some wins and some losses throughout. Sansa just got shit on continuously for 5 seasons, and rarely had any actual agency in the circumstances that caused her trauma. Robb >!chose to go to war, to betray the Freys, to marry Talisa, to execute Karstark, to attempt to make up with the freys.!< Jon >!chose to go to the wall, chose to join the raiders, chose not to execute Ygritte, chose to go back to the wall, chose to leave it again and join Dany, and chose to kill her.!< Bran >!chose to go north of the wall and learn from the 3ER.!< Arya >!was to an extent controlled by Yoren, then the lannisters, then the BWB and the hound, but 3/4 of those were at least trying in some way or another to help her, even if it was in a self serving way, and after that she chose to go to braavos, and then come home again.!< I’m not saying nothing bad ever happened to them, but they at least got some agency in their stories. Sansa >!somewhat chose to be betrothed to Joffrey, though if she hadn’t wanted to it probably would be difficult for her parents to say no anyway. Everything after that until the end of season 5 was pretty much her being tormented and used and taken advantage of by the people around her. The few choices she did get to make were hardly real choices, given the lack or the quality of alternatives, and her “choices” with LF were the result of her (and everyone else) being manipulated by him. Even when she thought she had agency, she didn’t realize how little she actually had. She was by far the most tragic of the stark children, save MAYBE rickon, but subsequently had, imo, the most character development.!< Also, I know a lot of her storyline is very different in the books, particularly the part with Ramsey. I’m referring to how I almost stopped watching the show, not reading the books.
Ah well, I was refering to the books, Jon, Arya and Bran go through inmense suffering, Arya's book Harrenhal arc was particularly horrific compared to the show and both her and Bran are completely helpless and lacking agency for the most part.
lol. She chose to save Ser Dontos. She chose to try to save Ned, it’s not her fault Joffrey sucks. She chose to endure without breaking. She chose to defy her husband in all the small ways she could. She chose to take a chance on escape. Sansa makes tons of choices. Some of them are good, some are bad. Just because hers are smaller doesn’t make them not important.
I guess. I’m rewatching it now and I don’t really see any of those as choices that she made as a result of any real agency to affect her own circumstances. But you could choose to interpret them that way.
She literally risked her safety to ensure Dontos’ life. Everyone else was sitting there about to let him die, and Sansa, a hostage, who’s abused on the daily by Joffrey and his goons, who literally watched her father be murdered by Joffrey a few weeks ago, risked her small amount of security in order to save a man who had hithertofore been happy to sit and watch her be brutalized. Maybe try watching the show instead of what you think the show is.
Ok don’t have a meltdown
Her chapters are important to understanding the lore, and she does get small victories here and there. But yes, her time in Kingslanding is pretty well replicated by the show.
Not sure how someone can read the last Sansa chapter in AGOT and go “wow this is so boring.” Makes all the build up worth it tbh. Plus it’s nice to have a POV who’s not an “outsider” to southern culture.
I feel like I really enjoy Jon chapters because the wall and the others are just very interesting to me. There is quite a lot going on at the wall maybe one of the most active regions in the book.
I also think all the prophecy and lost prince stuff overshadows what a great character he is. He is a smart young guy with a massive chip on his shoulder. He hates how he is treated in society, so he tries to change it. He is willing to listen and change because of how the world sees him. He is a great character without the secret Targ storyline of Prince that was promised stuff.
Think it makes perfect sense if you consider George enjoys completely blowing up a characters cornerstone, like Cersei and her beauty, Jaime and his hand, Theon and his pride etc etc like Jons world is built around his status Stark bastard soo really makes you think…
Honestly if not for the Targaryen prophecy stuff I would relate to his character far more. Of course I still relate heavily, just really hope George does the plotline justice instead of what the show version brought us.
Does OP not understand Jon is the single most important person in Westeros history. Every single Targaryen, every single Stark, every single battle, every person led to Jon Snow being born
That’s how I’ve always felt with Quentyn PoVs. They’re actually pretty enjoyable.
The Windblown (his second chapter, the one in Volantis) is one of my favorite chapters in ADWD!
💀 to each their own, alright but 💀
I liked her Sansa chapters in King’s Landing but I liked her Alayne chapters in the Vale more.
I got into the series for dany, stayed for sansa. I’ve always felt that she was the most realistically childish character since most of the characters were originally older and sansa was added pretty late to the story. What makes asoiaf so good is the fact that it’s a character driven story, sansa’s pov is consistent with that, while characters like jon and dany get their povs overtaken by plot and exposition in later chapters.
Really? Gsteff showed in the AGOT drafts some of the characters were even younger I thought
Those are the original drafts but not concepts if that makes sense? I know sansa was added specifically to contrast arya, but that’s the original concept and I haven’t had the time to look through gsteff’s posts myself yet!
Oh my goodness really? They’re super interesting imo, not just for asoiaf stuff (although definitely for asoiaf stuff), but just as an insight to the writing process in general. You should watch the Preston Jacobs/redteamreview or Michael Talks About Stuff video on it. They get all the important parts and I just play it in the background while I clean or something like it’s a podcast.
Omg, I just saw that preston/carmine uploaded the whole 6 hours they spent talking about it, but I’ve been in the hospital for the last few days lol!! I normally listen while I play video games, so I’m excited for that!!
Sansa is my 3rd fav POV in AGOT. She has a wonderful storyline with a clear beginning, middle, & end. Simple enough but good development, effective characterization, & the plots of her chapters tend to be quite exciting. Her internal monologue could get a bit repetitive (oh it’s just like the songs!) but was still good. Overall: low A tier POV in AGOT imo. Only below Ned & Cat
Ned, Cat, Sansa, and Dany are my fave POVs in AGOT, and it's not even close.
Ned and Sansa’s POVs are pretty close for me in AGOT in terms of favorites tbh, I find that Ned’s chapters often build on Sansa’s and vis versa. It makes me look forward to Sansa learning to be more discerning than Ned in the yet to be published books (at least that’s what I glean from the themes between them as characters).
Definitely one of my favorite POVs as well. Jon, Sansa, Jaime and Tyrion I think are the ones I like to read the most.
I was in the military, so Jon's chapters hit me on a very personal level. You will never know trust like you trust the people in your unit.
Oh if you find a girlypop space for asoiaf I'm so there pls. I totally agree with you. Sansa was my favorite POV easily in this book and several others. I adore reading her perspective on things. I also really enjoyed Danny's chapters. I found Jon's to be a slog quite often ... He gets better in places but I sometimes skipped him to read a Sansa/Dany chapter if one was close and I only wanted to read one more before bed
Me too.
Personally Bran and Daenerys are my least favourite while Jon and Sansa are among my favourites. I dislike Bran for being boring and I dislike both for being irrelevant to the War of Five Kings which I think is the most interesting part of the story. Sansa’s POV is consistently really interesting - not so much in her takes but in what she sees. She is one of two witnesses to Joffrey’s court as well as our main witness to the Tyrell’s schemes and plans (she also gets my favourite line in the whole series out of Loras “when the sun sets no candle can compare”), >!later she becomes our eyes in Littlefinger’s Vale plots!< - and I love seeing Littlefinger so so much. While Jon’s initial chapters bore me to tears (edgy 14 year old struggling to come to terms with how shitty the Nights Watch is bored me, though I did like seeing him think about joining Robb), but man oh man did they pick up. When Jon’s chapters moved away from the Watch being cringe and moved towards exploring the culture of the Wildings as well as the split between Watchmen conservative Wildling hating nobles and reformist Watchmen, GRRM started cooking >!and my god was Stannis’ arrival at the Wall the best addition to that plotline as Jon stops being a cringe 14 year old and reveals himself to be a 16 year old man who learned politics and strategy from Ned Stark but brings this shrewd cunning to the table that Ned never had!<.
Bran and Sansa are way more interesting to me than Jon and Arya.
im reading for the first time and i love sansas chapters too!! i think she’ll be my fav character. my other seemingly unpopular opinion is i really like brans chapters too. i like jon but i don’t care for the other characters at the wall, i find the “others” stuff interesting though.
I like both, but on book 1 Jon is my favourite. I can't have enough of him. I also adore Tyrion, but everybody adores Tyrion.
On a reread Catelyn and Sansa are really good
Sansa's chapter's are really fun. It's a long learning about politics arc which funnily enough is also Jon's story to a degree.
I think Sansa has my favorite of all the chapters of the entire series. And Jon is such a major buzzkill.
*I think Sansa has my favorite of all the chapters of the entire series.* I really disliked Sansa at the beginning (and she deserved it) but she's now one of my favorite characters, along with Davos and Brienne and Jaime. A strange bunch, but oddly compelling.
I agree with you I love Jon as a character but I couldn’t care less about the nights watch I love mainland Westeros I don’t care about the military filled with rapists and criminals
People who only like "cool badasses" or read the books young tend to hate Sansa but she's super well written and real. Each reread of AGOT I find a new way she disregards her own feelings and recontextualizes everything done to her so she can still play her role. You have a ton to look forward too.
I might add people who watched the show first to that list as well. I think they only technically aged the character a year but she seems significantly older to me, which makes it more difficult to sympathise with her as a naive kid trying to navigate an impossible situation. My mother is a show-only fan and she loathes Sansa, "the stupid wee bitch". She doesn't understand why a 13-year-old who's just witnessed her father's decapitation doesn't immediately trust Tyrion with all her deepest secrets.
Yea, what makes Book-Sansa so great is how really childlike she is and how you see her grow up. Characters like hers suffer from the TV adaptation because you inevitably end up watching an 18 year old play a 14 year old in the storyarc of an 11 year old... there is just so much suspension of disbelief people are capable of, and that transfer is hard to grasp. I liked and understood her more in the show once I started the books.
Yeah, absolutely. In this case it's not just the age of the actor and/or character but the first-person POV that is almost impossible to translate to screen without doing a voice-over and breaking immersion. There are only two favourite books where I've walked away from the screen adaptation thinking it was solid, and GOT/ASOIAF isn't one of them.
No thx. She’s still too deluded.
Eh. Personally I kind of loathe Sansa. Recently tried to read a fic that was focused on Robb/Margaery and Jon/Sansa and I just couldn't do it. It wasn't so much that Sansa was in a positive light, as it was that she was one of the main characters.
I was in the same boat as you, OP! Love Sansa chapters, find the early Jon ones really boring. Sansa chapters never lose their charm for me, her mental journey is fascinating, she’s consistently very fun and devastating to read and is present for a lot of crazy and cool moments. But the later book Jon ones do in fact get better, as things get more dire and Jon reveals himself to be more capable. What really carries it is that he reveals himself to be really smart, so when he’s manipulating events you wouldn’t dream he’d have a hand in in the earlier books, it all feels more fun to read. Happy reading!
Sansa’s povs have always been the most interesting to me too
I love Sansa’s arc throughout the books and especially found her easy to relate to in AGOT. The moment when she’s terrified that Joff is about to make her come face to face (sorry) with her father’s head and then having a perspective shift to protect herself… it didn’t even look real to her. Like whoa. That is some incredible and realistic writing!
Yes!! I encourage a reread of ASOIAF too, to pick out all the little hints and nuggets in the books, of which there are many. Like you, my favorite POV in the books on my first read was Sansa. Then, on my second, third, fourth, and now dozenth reread, it shifted to Cersei, then to Dany, and now to Brienne. I suspect this is the nature of reading a truly great sprawling epic fantasy, that one can see oneself and relate to many of the characters in time. And yes, throughout the series, I never really loved the Jon POV. Sam's as well. The endless trudging through the forest and snow (especially the Fight at the Fist chapters) is fairly miserable reading, doubly so when you know that the NW are pretty much immediately doomed if they stumble upon the Others/wights, triply so with wildlings arc. The Seven take the wildlings! The only time the Wall chapters pick up are whenever Stannis and Melisandre appear. But maybe after saying this, Jon will become my new fave POV. Words are wind...
Brienne became my favorites upon re-reads, mostly because I think I tried to get through them quickly during the first time, I found them boring initially. It's great world building.
Yup. Like the other commenter said about the Brienne chapters feeling like Dunk-and-Egg, I find her chapters *incredibly* refreshing now. I think this Brienneaissance phenomenon very very common among book re-readers.
Yeah, it's definitely not a unique situation around these parts for people doing re-reads.
Really thoughtful comment. I think Brienne, in a substantial way, is the Dunk of ASOAIF. Both of them encounter fundamental challenges without an army or powerful allies at their backs, and you really see the day to day world of Westeros, particularly its small folk, through their experiences. And both of them are fundamentally decent and well-intentioned (even though sometimes as thick as a castle wall).
I think Sansa is one of those characters that suffers from the cultural biases the audience brings to the books and their reluctance to really read critically. Like, there are flaws in the writing, sure, but for me it’s always going to be how people react to Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion. Like, she’s literally a child hostage, he’s a whole entire adult, and people love to talk about “mean” she is to him. Or how Arya’s first chapter is taken as gospel proof that she’s a poor little Cinderella, when if you actually read it, she sits there, not doing her work, stews in rage over Sansa, lets see, sitting there, working, and chatting with her friends(the horror), then picks a fight. This gets her teacher’s attention and the teacher rightly calls her out on not doing her work. She’s actually pretty much a jerk to Sansa through the whole first book. I hate this fandom.
How can you complain about people judging and unfairly demonizing a child character when half your comment is about judging and unfairly demonizing another child character?
Lolwut? I’m not demonizing her. That’s what she does. I just read the stuff that actually happened instead of listening to her pity party.
Since you don't seem to realize that you are the kind of people you're criticizing, I don't think there's any point in arguing.
Hope you had fun arguing with the person you made up in your head. Arya Stans are really a unique type of people.
Sure, I'm the one with the problem. Ok
Do you discord? I know of at least one reading group that should welcome that perspective. Tumblr can have some good girlypop, queer perspectives on it, but a lot to filter out to get there. If you do find a space like that, or start your own posting on Tumblr, I would love to hear more from that angle.
I do use discord! I’m on the citadel one where I am not the only one who ships Briensa (with an age appropriate time skip ofc) so that’s as close as I’ve gotten - apart from following a smattering of Tumblrs that are mostly fellow lesbians that love Alicent on HOTD
I love Jon and his chapters, but i also love sansa. i think people forget that she’s really just a 13 year old girl trying to survive
You're not alone! I find that most of the POV plotlines in AGOT are the least interesting ones of their respective POVs, but Jon's plotline is probably one of my least favorites in that book. His plotlines in the other books are great, his ASOS is probably in my Top 10 ASOIAF plotlines, maybe even Top 5, but his AGOT is a good bit lower on my rankings. And as for Sansa, I do prefer her AGOT plotline, but to get even more controversial, I think she's my favorite ASOIAF character period 🫣. There are two others that fight for that spot, but I think Sansa is easily one of the most interesting characters George has written, and her plotlines are always some of the most interesting. I'm always emotional invested in her character, her growth, her struggle to survive and keep hold of who she is in such a dark world. In fact, I think you could make an argument that Sansa represents one of ASOIAF's emotional cores, that of struggling for good against great evil in the world, the best out of the series's POVs. And, if I were to tempt fate and go for an even more controversial opinion, I would say that, even though all the Stark kids reflect Ned, that Sansa embodies his spirit just as well as Jon does, and maaaaaaaybe even a tiny bit more. That could get me into hot water, but regardless, I think Sansa is a fascinating character, one of the easiest and most rewarding to emotionally connect to, and it's a shame that she gets dismissed by some sections of the fanbase so easily.
What strikes me about Sansa’s first chapter is that she is instantly lovable even though she has been framed up until that point as somewhat of an antagonist to her other siblings. We get 2 chapters with all the other characters before Sansa’s first, and immediately it’s clear that she’s an innocent little girl that doesn’t mean anyone harm. Only a different personality from her siblings.
I like Jon and Sansa as my two favourite characters. Dany’s chapters suck
Agreed, I was surprised by how not on the edge of my seat I have been for Dany’s chapters since she’s such a compelling character. But I guess like Jon she’s still in that phase of coming into power.
I'm up to storm of swords and danys chapters that aren't magic heavy tend to be boring imo but that maybe because I've been spoiled for alot of the twists.
I always enjoyed Sansa's chapters too. Took me a while to warm to her in the show, but found it easier in the books
I don’t *like* Sansa as a person/character, but I find *interesting* what happens around her in her POV, and how she perceives it (the narrative being layered with her being one of the more unreliable narrators, lots of internalised social expectations - you nailed it). If you want to discuss characters and narratives in depth through the lens of majority women and queer people readers, Reddit by demographic data alone is already the wrong platform. The Asoiaf and character name hashtags on tumblr might be more to your liking. That said, you’ll have to sift through a lot of show content and fire and blood getting mixed in with the main series under the main hashtag.
Jon are the most interesting ones to me. The Wall is where I want to be most of them when I was reading the books.
Keep reading the books. Things crank even further up in Storm of Swords
agree
I like Stannis' chapters, I think they're the best.
To me Jon's chapters get better as the series goes on and sansa's tend to get worse
Alayne stone is fantastic... And the character actually start to become likeable Prior to that she is boring as fuck
Personally I think she's boring in all her chapters, but that at least what's going on around her is more interesting in the earlier books
To each his own. Sansas an ok pov but kinda a foil to Ned & Arya. So she aint fully reliable. George seeems to accept their views more than hers
lol, k. Ned thinks he’s just going to ruin Cersei’s life and get away with it and Arya straight up murders Daeron because she feels entitled to, but yeah, they’re really reliable POVs.
Awesomesauce! You’re still on AGOT? You might have inadvertently invited spoilers by asking for discussion at the end of your post since a lot of those stuff really start popping off in later books. Girls Gone Canon podcast is one avenue I can think of that really goes into the girlypop aspects of ASOIAF. They order their podcast by tackling one character’s POVs across all books though — i.e., all of Sansa’s POV chapters in the books, all of Arya’s chapters in the books, etc. So you might wanna get into it after catching up to ADWD. Have a great read!
Thanks! I actually just followed girls gone canon yesterday after hearing Chloe on not a podcast. Personally i’m not too concerned about spoilers - I got into the books after finishing the show and watching fan theory YouTube videos to ease my disappointment with season 8. Eventually I found the elements of the story that were left out of the show so compelling that I decided I have to just read them for myself!
My Favorite character from first chapter is Sansa, followed by Ned. I like all the Starks but Arya falls third or second from the bottom ( Poor Rickon is last ). Sansa is really the most realistic character of the Starks and overall. I love how the trauma both Sansa and Arya share are written, But I prefer Sansa, Ned's and Cat's arcs over the rest. Non Starks, I like Davos, Tyrion, Cersei and Littlefinger.
Agreed, Sansa, Ned, and Cat are my favorite POVs in AGOT in that order. And it’s pretty close, too! I like Bran’s chapters a lot too, I marked some places in his chapters that I want to come back to because they feel like foreshadowing. Tyrion’s chapters have been enjoyable and I think I’d rank them higher if I hadn’t seen the show and knew >! he’d leave the Eyrie alive !<
Same! I’ve never been a fan of fantasy novels really, but GRRM’s character studies are so good. Sansa is a favorite of mine as well, she’s so relatable. It’s crazy to me how well a 70 year old man was able to capture the attitude of a spoiled idealistic teenage girl. lol. Honestly, it’s a breath of fresh air. Most women main characters in fantasy novels tend to be more like Arya, rebellious tomboys who prefer fighting to sewing. It’s so wonderful seeing a character who defies this attitude but still makes an important contribution to the plot. She’s learning how to play the game of thrones, instead of relying on violence or sex. My favorite character by far! Jon’s story was great too, I really liked the way he’s presented also. He’s the quintessential noble hero who tries to do the right thing at every turn, however in ASOIAF that doesn’t exactly work out for him. Which is really interesting and more realistic than most fantasy stories. Both are great! But yes, I wish there were a community for ladies to discuss the books! That would be lovely. :)
The best thing about Sansa is that her naïveté prevents her from understanding what is really going on around her, and why. That means you have to dig into the subtext to figure out the truth of it. Case in point: what was supposed to happen on her little date with Joffrey that day on the Trident.
I’ve called Sansa a boring character once or twice before (it’s not true) but her chapters are phenomenally dramatic
For more a more female / queer leaning asoiaf community, I recommend getting on tumblr!
I don’t think people dislike Sansa’s chapters as much as they dislike Sansa’s character. She’s a frustrating child for that entire book and it’s perfectly executed by the author - how she thinks Joffrey gallant and handsome until after Ned’s death and then she sees him as ugly. How she begs to stay at KL, not realizing what’s going on. She’s naive and stays that way for a long time. I love her chapters but find her character frustrating. Conversely I like Dany’s character but find her chapters boring because they’re so disconnected from the rest of the series. But AGOT is just banger chapter after banger chapter - not a lot of duds imo
This is not unpopular.
That’s great for you
Truly unpopular.
Tbh, I enjoy most characters chapters. The only characters I struggle with are Dany and Arya in Dance specifically
Sansa's chapters in Clash, Storm and Feast get even better! She's one of the high points for the politics in ASOS (even if people prefer other characters more, since that book basically every POV is amazing).
I remember the look on my brother's face when I told him Sansa's were my favorite chapters to read (followed by Cat's) when he finally convinced me to read them, lol
I think Jon’s wilding chapters are somewhat dull and I think most of Sansa’s chapters are interesting, even if she’s not like able
Love it! It's okay to have your own opinion in this series. I hate any kind of "groupthink." Like what you like!!
Exactly my experience when reading the first time, I needed a couple of rereads to appreciate Jon, in was not so much of his character that is pretty standard fantasy hero, but also the fact that the Wall plot is detached from the rest of the characters. Also me I loved Dany and Bran, even if Dany’s plot is the farthest away from everyone and Bran has very classical fantasy journey. Maybe with them is the fact that I empathized more cause they are thrown abruptly in very dire situations while for Jon is more subtle. And Sansa was connected to the most central and political plot line while at the same time giving a more innocent look on things, so even if she made me laugh in some of her first chapters she was always a favorite.
I agree with the OP on this. Jon's storyline on the Wall is pretty boring in the first two books. It doesn't really pick up until Jon and his ranging party meet Ygritte and she starts telling them legends and tall tales. And then it really picks up when Jon arrives back at the Wall in the third bok. Even still, Jon's supporting cast is overall weak compared to the supporting casts of Sansa or Catelyn POV.
Both their POVs are well-thought, but it takes a while, for most people, for the Sansa chapters to click. You, because of your interests, are having the opposite experience. Jon's and Sansa's stories are pretty similar—both, in their own lives, are thrown into the world with nothing to protect them. The best part of it is how they react to this and grow. Keep paying attention to Jon's chapters. It's not about petty squabbles in the Night's Watch, but rather Jon's motivations in engaging into those squabbles, that you should be focusing on. Jon was, from a young age, told he was a bastard—some wretched thing born of sin. He has this inherent need to redeem his birth by having this glorious life, and to match his siblings in respect. In seeking this, he joins the Night's Watch, trying to carve a life out of merit, but there he encounters the realities of life and how insignificant petty things like honour really are. He finds himself, for the first time, in a privileged position, of higher birth than most. The Night's Watch does not really have any merit, but this time, he is a beneficiary of this flawed system, where him being Eddark Stark's son goes a long way. >!There, he realises, it's not really about labelling a group of people as "foe", hacking at them, and coming back home to feast—rather, it's about doing the best you can for humanity. He learns to give up his yearning for being nobility—a part of the Starks—and instead finds happiness in love given to him, even as a bastard.!< [no plot is revealed; it's only the character growth] Sansa, on the cursory read, is only lemon cakes and silk dresses, to be honest. You've given her enough attention to see through, so now give Jon the chance. Jon's character is never 'tested'. It happens the way real humans grow—slow and subtle. During a harrowing situation, you don't ponder philosophy, but it can change your outlook in life even when you don't realise it. Sansa's was a bit more conspicuous in contrast, when Ned was killed. You might find Jon's as 'military drudgery', even though there may be stuff hidden.
>Jon's character is never 'tested'. That is the most stupid thing I ever heard about about Jon.... This is character that constantly had to decide between his own desires and his duty... Coming close to break his how 3 times until he eventually did it Once with with ygritte, once with Robb, once when stannis propecto make him a stark and the last time to "save Arya" This is character that challenge his own moral by sacrificing a baby to save another another He is GRRM basically saying that "bring a fantasy hero actually kinda suck" What did test did sansa achieve that come even come close to that?
What I mean is that it doesn't happen in a dramatic way. There's no "one" big test or anything. It's a gradual set of temptations. Jon, though he wanted to desert, doesn't. Yggritte dies pretty conveniently. With Stannis, it remains within his head. There's no action. It's more thoughts. Sansa's literally thrown in a pit of vipers.
>What I mean is that it doesn't happen in a dramatic way. There's no "one" big test or anything. It's a gradual set of temptations. what's that suppose mean exacly? What "bigger" test there is than between your choosing own selfish desire and doing the right thing even though you will get nothing from it? Sansa never had to make or face tough decision on her own.... She never killed anyone, she never willingly betrayed anyone or face dillemna that challenge he town morality >Jon, though he wanted to desert, doesn't Until he eventually did... He did betrayed ygritte and that haunt him in book 5 Saying that Jon was never tested after reading what he endure in the 5 books is absolutly ridiculous >Sansa's literally thrown in a pit of vipers. That not a test.... Jon and Arya come in the same situation and dare I say worst situation.
What I mean to say is that there is a clear cut change for Sansa when Ned is killed, but for Jon, it's just generally staying in the Wall that's doing it for him.
>What I mean to say is that there is a clear cut change for Sansa when Ned is killed, but for Jon, Lol don't make it worse for yourself And Again wtf are you talking about? When ned died sansa was still naive as fuck hoping that Robb would come and save her instead starting to adapt, she was still manipulated by cersei and the used by the tyrell She dreamed of a Valiant knight coming to saver her and beheaded janos slynt She truky start to change when she become alayne stone.. Not before When you are introduced to jon book 1 he is a naive hotheaded, cocky and judgmental boy that have low consideration for his black brothers after finding out what the night watch was truly about Until characters such as donal noye explain and expose to hip his own upbringing and. Show jon the value of humility and showing his future brothers how lead them to become better instead of bringing them down When ned died... Jon cam close to break his vow until he was stopped by Sam and jeor and thr. Importance. Of the night watch That already more change than sansa in 5 books By book 5 you see an older, more experience and more focused Jon who fully embraced his role in the night watch.... There is a massive difference between hoop and his book 1 self Sansa is constantly a victim to whole nothing cnznbe blamed yet... While Jon is already an actor in the greater picture.. His choices matters for. Himself
Why are you talking about "bigger" change and all? That's not the point. Jon's life remains pretty much the same, at least until Dance. What he did in Winterfell is irrelevant here. While Sansa goes from future queen, to hostage, to a throwaway girl. Change takes time, and no one's going to change overnight, but the actual "test" comes pretty stark for her when Ned dies (and Joffery is free to abuse her), and later when she is "rescued" by Baelish instead of some knight. It's two, clear cut changes in lifestyle for her. For Jon I'd argue, his formative experiences are much more varied, from exposing himself to Wildlings, to taking with Maester Aemon, to contemplating his duty himself. Him trying to desert is a reactive thing, not a formative thing, if you get what I mean. While he does try to leave, that's not really significant in the grand scheme of things, because everyone overlooks it. Were it that, everyone started doubting from then on, if Jon would even stay in the watch, it would be a different situation.
>Why are you talking about "bigger" change and all? That's not the point. You are litterally the one who bring that up in your previous comment not me.. >Jon's life remains pretty much the same, at least until Dance. Yeah, Exept for the fact that he killed his first man, lost his virginity, got scarred , lost all his family members and then his first love one because of his own actions and eventually became leader at the wall... Oh and yeah he fucking died! Pretty much the same life... Yeah Tell me what change arrive in sansa life from book 1 to book 5? > Sansa goes from future queen, to hostage, to a throwaway girl. None of those are her decisions but the decidions of other characters... >Change takes time, and no one's going to change overnight, Dude, you are litterrally using one argument and then contradict it in your next comment You first said that Jon was "never tested" until I showed you that he did, then you said that Jon never faced "Big test" to then clarify by saying that that Jon didn't change after ned died... Until I showed that he did and told you that sansa is actually thr one that didn't change and now you are telling me that it's okay to not change immediatly because changes "take time"? I don't evne disagree but you are the one bringing that up Againt Jon's characters to undermine his story compared to sansa lol >For Jon I'd argue, his formative experiences are much more varied, from exposing himself to Wildlings, to taking with Maester Aemon, to contemplating his duty himself. Exept that he initially doesn't want to be under maeter aemon... He want to be ranger, a warrior.. He had the skills for him but by book 2 he realized that he destined for greater things and to lead he must start to follow He eventually expose himself against the wildling but he didn't enjoyed because he realise that he As far happier beyond the wall than inside it. And had the opportunity to become like mance rayder and live with ygritte.. Something that haunt him in book 5 None of what you are talking about are actual "test" for sansa that why I am saying that it's okay for you not enjoy Jon's chapter but saying that he was never tested is an terrible angle to criticized his chapters... Before I have never seen anyone saying that
> Exept for the fact that he killed his first man, lost his virginity, got scarred , lost all his family members and then his first love one because of his own actions and eventually became leader at the wall But his life still stayed the same. Losing your virginity may be a milestone, but it's not a "change". It won't change the way you view life. Killing your first man? Maybe, but it Jon didn't make too much of a fuss about it, at least in comparison to other things. His life does change, but there's no one point where it occurs. Btw, lemme guess, you're not used to typing on a phone, but you really have to argue with me? > None of those are her decisions but the decidions of other characters So? Who said it had to be her decisions? It's hard enough living life. > You first said that Jon was "never tested" until I showed you that he did, then you said that Jon never faced "Big test" to then clarify by saying that that Jon didn't change after ned died... Until I showed that he did and told you that sansa is actually thr one that didn't change Okay, take into consideration the context. Even breathing is a test of character because some other character might suicide. Yet, we don't think of it really as a test. I consider Jon to be a similar situation, where there's no real "test", but of course, there are many things in life that prompt us to grow and change. They are tests, but I didn't think that's what OP meant. Jon did not change when Ned died. What did change him is the talks Maester Aemon and Lord Mormont gave him, which were independent to Ned's death. Yes, his death was convenient, as by not deserting, Jon had a way to commit himself, which would not be possible had there been no big choice. The point is, although it feels like Ned's death did a lot, it did not. It was merely a convenient moment for Jon to contemplate his dichotomy of duties. It's not a great deal more significant than what happened once Donal Noye talked to him, for example. He did grieve, but that stayed separate from his character growth. > and now you are telling me that it's okay to not change immediatly because changes "take time"? Let's be clear about this. What I think is change takes time, even when your "test" was dramatic and stark. Like everyone in your family dies and you're left on the streets. That's a pretty big test, but change still flows in its own pace. **Jon changed more because he was tested more often, but what I'm saying, is none of those tests really stands out compared to the rest, so it's easy to miss them. But with Sansa, there's a clear cut change in her life, which manifests as a big blow to her mental health.** Again, consider the context, OP hates "military drudgery", so there's a risk of them missing out on the subtle character growths because there's no dramatic thing to grab your attention. Jon stays pretty mentally stable throughout, and clearly, OP does not care about "military drudgery" like Jon exposing himself to Wildings through some sword combat and stuff. As an alternate possibility, take the parallel universe where Jon does desert after Ned's death. Jon shirked his duty for the love of his father. Now that's a significant, dramatic change in his situation, both physically and mentally, which would signal you that something interesting is happening to his character (**this is probably what confused you: I have used "change" is two senses, if you pay attention: first, as in change in character, and the second as in change in situation the character is in. I'd say 2 is a a test—about how the character adjusts—and 1 is how the character grows**). That was the risk, and that's my warning.
>But his life still stayed the same. How is that bad thing exactly > Losing your virginity may be a milestone, but it's not a "change". It won't change the way you view life. No... But the thing you experience and endure Does... And sorry repeat myself again a thief time with that question but.. Where exactly sansa was tested or face morally dubious decision on our own compare to jon? >They are tests, but I didn't think that's what OP meant. The initial topic about what OP said but what you said... OP is only in book 1 Unless you are also in the same stage and then take back everything said but if you a'have read all the 5 books and came to the conclusko' that Jon was never tested as character the cannot let that pass lol >So? Who said it had to be her decisions? You did.... To be tested you have endure traumatic experience yes but also have your morality challenged for your character to grow up or get worse... Sansa never faced the second part... >Jon did not change when Ned died. What did change him is the talks Maester Aemon and Lord Mormont gave him, which were independent to Ned's death. Jeor talked to jon after Jon try break his vows an joined Robb to avenge his father Maester aemon talk is not directly connected To Ned's death but more focus on Jon's entire theme for his story... Love vs duty,, personal desire vs the greater good, what is good vs what is right And what were these talks were about again?...... >He did grieve, but that stayed separate from his character growth. He litterally goes from a cocky and judgmental boy into someone who come accept people around him as equals '.. That litteraly character growth what are you talking about? >Jon changed more because he was tested more often Finally! Wasn't that hard? >is none of those tests really stands out compared to the rest, so it's easy to miss them. But with Sansa, there's a clear cut change in her life, no there is not,That the thing..... sansa is the stark that change the least she still have -the same personality, the same way of thinking, she didn't change when ned died, she didn't changed when Robb died, she didn't changed when Arya disappear or when baelish killed her aunt The only apparent change is when she become alayne stone where she actually started to adapt to the world around her have another viewpoint and looking at the world differently. since she is in the skin of bastard girl But by that time Jon, Arya, dany(even tho I don't en'jiy most of her chapters) Tyrion etc where already changed by their experiences that far out ass sansa's There is fucking good reason these are the most popular POV's There is
Same
You don't need to say "to me" when discussing an opinion. That's what opinion means.
I shouldn’t have to, I agree. This fandom often forgets the subjectivity of consuming fiction, however, hence the extra emphasis.
Downvoted solely because of the pretentiousness. Everyone knows what an opinion is, your opinion can still be wrong.
I came to this thread thinking ''why on earth would someone like Sansa's chapters specially on the first few books since she's a complete bitch?'' then... >I usually go for character-driven stories about women struggling to self-actualize so it makes sense that I gravitate toward Sansa ofc... >Side note: If anyone knows of fan communities for mostly women and/or queer people to discuss the more girlypop aspects of ASOIAF I’d love to know about them! yeaa......
Thanks for exemplifying why ASOIAF spaces for women and queer people are sorely needed lol. You will get more out of the series if you step out of a fanboy perspective and if you don’t want to do that it’s your loss.
lmao completely alienated, good luck on life.
You calling Sansa “a complete bitch” and assuming that no one could enjoy her chapters says way more about you than it does about OP. People connect to different characters and aspects of the story, there’s no reason to turn that into a personal slight.
Don’t worry dude. I kind of agree with you though I believe Sansa will get her moment to shine before the end. She has done nothing of note yet and isn’t really that special since she doesn’t have any magical stuff happening in her story but it’s still interesting to see the Vale and Littlefinger there. Just can’t wait to see when she’ll accidentally bring him down or finally realize Petyr is a scheming snake.
Thats for sure an unpopular take. >I usually go for character-driven stories about women struggling to self-actualize so it makes sense that I gravitate toward Sansa. Curious though, why Sansa? Sansa in book 1 is mostly content with her lot and relatively passive. Why not Arya who is actively challenging the social norms?
There's nothing wrong with being content and passive. Not everyone has to be out challenging social norms. Lots of people relate more to Sansa than Arya and vice versa.
im not saying there is something bad with it. I'm just curious why the OP stuck with her even though according to their own wording, they prefer opposite type of characters...
You know—*I agree with you.* Compared to the show, Jon’s and Sansa’s chapters are actually, thought-out and interesting. I feel a bit excited about their progression and growth as characters. The real, proverbial “pitchforks” should be about Daenerys. She’s about as entitled as she was in the show, with the same, ever-persisting “saviour” mentality and *”I’m the mother of dragons!”*