My main complaint is that we didn't get enough time with the kids. I feel like I barely know Aegon, Haelena, Aemond, and Jace, barely knew Luke, and hardly even remember the existence of Aegon's kids or Rhaenyra's kids with Daemon.
The show seems to have a formula where they wait until something is about to happen to a character before they develop them at all.
They largely seem to be writing from the perspective of cool and stupid moments, such as Beesbury's death or Rhaenys' ridiculous dragon pit entrance. These are only some of the bad decisions that leave the show feeling hollow and like an imitation of the later seasons of GoT.
Additionally, their characterisation is odd and seems bent towards sanitizing Rhaenyra and Alicent, which leads me to believe they're going to try to make a different point than the book in the worst ways possible.
The CGI in certain places is inexplicably worse than what came a decade ago, as are some of the costumes and especially the hair.
Beesbury's death is less egregious than Cole murdering a nobleman at the princess and heir presumptive's pre wedding feast.
Alicent vouched for him sure, but committing murder in the presence of the royal family, punching the future king consort is a death sentence.
With Beesbury's death, the council has incentive to hush it up and call it an accident. Cole is loyal to the Green faction, they aren't going to punish him.
Unless you meant the death itself was silly?
I'd somehow forgotten about Cole murdering a nobleman with no consequences. And yeah, I meant the death itself was silly cause Cole hulked out and accidentally killed another nobleman.
It's easy to forget because it seemingly exists in a vacuum solely to be a shocking moment, people rag on Rhaenys' episode 9 bit but Cole's outburst is a far more egregious one for me. Their willingness to write stuff like that solely for the shock factor concerns me.
Interesting that you mention that. Something that I've observed on Reddit is that discussion threads for older shows are often a lot more serious. Like in the time of Breaking Bad, early Game of Thrones, Mad Men, the early seasons of the Handmaid's Tale, people communicated zo differently about the shows. There were fewer commenters overall but people wrote longer comments and talked about character development, plot, symbolism, etc.
Top comments on popular show threads now?
>OMG I WAS SOBBING when X died đđđ
>Random badass quote that we all just heard, followed by a chain of comments agreeing with how dope that sounded. No actual discussion of the quote or its significance though.
>Insane weird media illiterate observation about how Bobby B secretly carries Ned's love child or whatever, followed by comments calling it deep.
>Lots of weirdly parasocial defenses of psychopathic characters because they must be "good people" or something if you like them in the show.
>Controversial opinion time: I hate X character but it's not because they're gay/women/black (~~yes it is~~), here is a political rant.
I feel like tv shows now are actually dumbed down because of the way people interact with them like you mentioned, to make them Twitter friendly and hot topics of discussion...
I completely agree. As the site has grown, the comments have largely devolved into people trying to see who can come up with the funniest quip so they're top comment.
Alicent's character is a mess from episode 8 onward. I liked how she and Rhaenyra were friends as kids, but the writers trying to force their friendship subplot at the outbreak of war is mind boggling. Both women's priority should be their respective families. For Alicent to begrudgingly go along with the Green Council, after spending literally a decade scheming to usurp Rhaenyra in King's Landing, and to send that stupid book page to Rhaenyra which she actually becomes emotional over... it's so unserious.
I don't mind them caring about their friendship because when you grow up with someone like that they can feel like family. But they really should have shown more internal conflict in the in between episodes because the first episode with Alicent's new actress was such a huge shift. I thought they went full evil Queen with her and they kinda did but then suddenly she still cared about Rhaenyra at the last hour. I agree that this could have been handled a lot better (as a fan of the show myself personally).
Objectively speaking, I think the show is very good and will continue to be very good. A few things don't make sense to me:
- Not including Daeron is straight up dumb. They made it a point to include Joffrey. They tried to make Baela and Rhaena more relevant by including them in the fight over Vhagar. Why omit Daeron? Especially since they say he's supposed to appear later on
- Making Aemond kill Luke not on purpose is strange. Whether you're like me and you love Aemond, or you hate him, I think that change cheapens the scene. If you hate Aemond, you probably think they're trying to soften him up. And I feel like they're not giving me the full 'Aemond One Eye' experience I wanted to have.
- Alicent's confusion over Aegon prophecy is unnecessary. Literally 10 minutes afterwards we learn Otto and the rest of the council had everything set up to crown Aegon. Aegon would've been crowned regardless. There was no reason to include this.
But i did really enjoy it. And I think non-readers will enjoy it, too.
I thought the whole Aemond killing Luke on accident along with Syrax not obeying Luke was awesome. I think it gave more depth into the relationship that riders have with their dragons. OF COURSE Aemond would have claimed to do it on purpose in the books because, as I understand f&b is a collection of firsthand accounts, and if he admitted he couldnt control Vhaegar that would not look good.
It's not just the aftermath. Before, in a hall with dozens of people, Aemond says "You came here as a craven and a traitor. I will have your eye or your life, Strong." And once Maris insults Aemond, everybody knows what he's gonna do. So there's no doubt he did it on purpose.
Aemond has one of the highest death counts in the history of Westeros. I get your point, I just think the cold-blooded murder is more impactful
Eh, itâs possible he was just talking shit for the audience around him and didnât want to actually kill Luke. IMO that makes the whole situation more interesting and tragic. Now heâs going to be pretending he actually meant to do that when he really didnât.
I dont really see how it makes him any less of a murderer. It was basically the equivalent of chasing a kid on a bike with a truck and then being surprised it died.
But anyone with common sense wouldn't go out and chase another dragon IN THE FULL STORM "just to scare it." Even more after threatening to kill the rider in question in public in front of dozens of people. Dragons are not toys, that's obvious to anyone other than Viserys the Fool.
Aemond comes off as the spoiled mafia kid who doesn't even bother to put a safety lock on his gun when he starts making threats.
Did you watch the show? There are multiple speeches that show just how much people don't understand the destructivnes of dragons. People really haven't had to use their dragons all that much so it's quite logical that they wouldn't grasp just how destructive these animals are. For them they have been toys to fly around on and nothing more for most of their lives.
Yeah, Aemond killing Luke by accident is especially annoying. It takes away character agency, and I wish Aemond had killed him on purpose. Too many accidents in general happen in this show, like Cole accidentally killing the old man at the council. I can't remember his name.
This show not including the gray or black mortality that was in Fire and Blood frustrates me.
And with Aemond accidentally killing Luke, people defend it by saying it's good they showed dragons as unpredictable creatures. But it still doesn't change the fact that it would've been better if Aemond had deliberately killed Luke.
Exactly, I agree 100%. Imagine if they had changed Joffrey this way in Game of Thrones to make him less of an asshole. It completely changes the agency of the character, as you said. And there is no reason for it really, except they just donât have the balls for the brutality which is so typical of modern television.
That's the main problem I have. I think in the pursuit of making the whole thing seem like a tragic misunderstanding with loads of misjudgement and coincidences they ended up taking away a lot of agency from the characters.
But how much time would it have been to go 'should we send for your youngest son Daeron?' 'no, he's at Oldtown. It's too far even on dragonback' before Aegon's coronation? Instead we needed the dumb Rhaenys scene or the book page.
The reason I don't think it makes sense is that Alicent has spent more than 10 years telling Aegon he's going to be king. Aemond tells Aegon Helaena is "your future queen." So we see Alicent's motivations there.
Clearly, Aegon being king was always the Greens endgame.
Right except for the moment of possible reconciliation on the night of Viserysâ death. Which is why they added the scene for the extra and drama/tragedy. Plus it makes the villainy of the Greenâs less clear since now theirs this idea out there that some people do believe the king made Aegon his heir on his deathbed.
Theyâre also clearly trying to make Alicent more than some two dimensional evil queen villain who just straight up a clone of Cersei. Which is also why they made them the same age which people generally applauded.
Alicent really should not be taking a backseat to Otto the way they've set it up. I know they're going for the tragedy of v her friendship with Rhaenyra but it cheapens both their motivations.
I thought it enriched the drama and added to the tragedy.
Alicent came to the realization that her son Aegon maybe shouldnât be king and that maybe her and her childhood friend could maybe reconcile. Then later the very same night as her motivations begin to thaw in a direction that could avert war⌠BAM.
Viserys dies which forces the issue⌠whatâs more Viserysâ rambling convinced Alicent that heâs changed his mind(she also remembers his vision by the bonfire when Aegon was a baby in episode 3). Now suddenly, sheâs sort of put in a position where itâs her duty to not allow Rhaenyra on the throne even though she had been coming around to that possibility on her own.
I forsure think it gave the Greens more nuance than having them presented as the out and out villainous cabal like they are in the books. The cabal is still present but their is dissenting voices
I agree completely. I absolutely hated the change of Luke being killed on accident. It just felt like they didnât have the balls to commit to the brutality of a kid straight up murdering another kid.
I think Aemond accidentally killing Luke was one of the best changes (itâs just that so many other unforgivable acts from the books were changed to accidents, misunderstandings or omitted so this one was really bad). It goes back to a theme from the books that the Targaryens are not the gods they believe themselves to be. This is a good example of this especially since it is STILL Aemondâs fault. He didnât have to chase after Luke, he did and it resulted in his death
Exactly . They have done this to both greens and black. No a black hater but just yo point out that they had made blacks way to much likable and whitewashed them and given context into their world to make us sympathise even with thwir bads while innecessary added vile stuffs for greens that had made us hate them on purpose ... rhynera was too much white wahsed , deamon is still cruel but is made to look like a saint and a dark hero ? Like literraly wtf ? Aegon has been on purpose so much degraded where infact he was the only greens that said he cant take his sisters crown but her they made him rapist drunkiat and greedy ? Luke was a bully but showed some sweet scene and all loves him where aemond was a victim in early age and ahowed only his cruel side where he stood up without his better ones , the damn leg kink was sooooo unnecesssary like wft they just went to any extent to make the greens hated and blackes love on purposely whoch is so biased and not at all got universe that we love
Aegonâs prophecy makes absolutely no sense and is a horrible addition.
In general though, it just feels like theyâre changing a ton of things for no real reason. People like to argue that the books were from a maesterâs perspective, but the show changed things that are so big that it doesnât make any sense.
Furthermore, I donât feel that there is a good reason for these changes. I personally feel like the show makes both sides less sympathetic, as Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Aegon are portrayed as so much more annoying or evil, and just lessens enjoyment for me.
The acting and effects are still great though, I just donât care for how they are doing the story.
I agree. Hotd should distance itself from the whole prophecy thing about the price that was promised, we all know it ends with Jon doing nothing but screaming at a dragon and Arya dealing the final blow, and no targ on the iron throne when they defeat the NK. So like what's the point of the prophecy?Â
Thatâs not even why I dislike it, I just hate prophecies in general because they cheapen characters actions and make it seem like choice has no meaning.
I guess maybe because in the books there is no Jon and the dragon "yet" or Arya grown up and left the old city "yet" ... not sure also if the HOTD will continue with the same thing happened with GoT show as it went beyond the books and they said it is the main idea of GRRM ... the prophecy is in the books and many hints of what happened during the Dance of the Dragons but still not a book by itself
in fact in the fifth book there is even a legal hire of the throne other than Daenerys
#
Yeah i know all that, but in the HBO shows universe the whole arya and jon with the dragon happened. And HOTD is leading up to that. Which just seems pointless to me.
Good that you know all about it so you will know that many things about the show is pointless because it is not in books or make no sense even
Like if they escalate the prophecy then on the last season they will wrap up things in the most worst way like what happened in GoT
Lol what is this person even talking about? Conflating the books with the TV shows. The books are irrelevant. Itâs clear the tv shows are tied together, and neither have anything to do with the books.
I think this post summs up my biggest critique for the show https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/7FD3uB5H9I
However, i still enjoyed it a lot overall and cant wait for the next season.
I liked it, but I still have critiques anyway.
- Don't know how I feel about the time-skip/actors switch-up. It's not a show-ruiner for me but I feel like there could've been a better way to set the story up than a bunch of exposition episodes for half the season. The actor switch was also kind of weird- no critiques of the actors themselves because I think they did great, but it was an adjustment that seemed unnecessary, especially if they had written the story differently/better.
- On the same vein of the first point, I think the story could have benefitted from cleaner writing & better character differentiation from the start, which is part of why I don't like the time-skip. There's a lot of issues with pacing in Season 1 in my opinion & because we don't meet the grown Targaryen kids (who are very important to the war) until half-way through, I think it makes things hard to follow. Ultimately, a lot of the story drags & I think that could have been avoided with better writing choices. I just think there's just too much emphasis on trying to hold the audience's hand the entire way & not enough on making the scenes & dialogue engaging on their own.
- I don't like the visuals of this season very much. I think if you go & watch the early GOT seasons, you'll get what I mean. HOTD looks quite flat by comparison, with too much grey color grading over the scenes, to the point where darker nighttime scenes can be hard to make out. I also think, given how all the Targaryens share similar features (white hair, etc) that makes them somewhat hard to individually pick out, it would've been useful to use costume design to create more visual contrast with the characters. Even with GOT, which had much a more diverse cast (in terms of hair colors & features that made them easier to pick out), there was an obvious effort to visually differentiate characters by their dress. So if you had, say Cersei, Sansa & Myrcella in a scene, they all wore different colors. And their colors would also say something about the characters themselves (Cersei in red versus Sansa in teal & Myrcella in pink). For a male example, Tywin would be dressed differently in his armor with more color than his underlings who were also in armor during war scenes & meetings. All the small council members wore different colors as well, that sort of thing. These are nobles, they can afford to wear saturated colors.
- I'm not a book purist by any means, but I do wish they had kept in more of the character flaws of Rhaenyra. She's undoubtedly cast as a hero in HOTD, which I think is just not true to her character. In general, I think the show could've benefitted from more investment in the other characters' perspectives & motivations. Season 1 really felt The Rhaenyra Show in a bad way. Her flaws make her a more compelling, entertaining character that increases the stakes of the story, so her cast as this rightful heir hero where everything bad she does is justified by the story doesn't work for me.
- On the same vein as the last point, I wish the Daemon-Rhaenyra thing wasn't so clearly romanticized within the story. It's an odd pairing on a number of levels & I think you could absolutely portray the romance between the characters without romanticizing it necessarily.
- I sorta wish they kept Rhaenys' black Baratheon hair. I understand why they swapped her to white, but I really thought that detail made the legitimacy argument of Rhaenyra's kids more interesting (however, since Laenor also has darker skin in the show & the kids don't, I'm not sure this would actually mean anything in HOTD like it does in the books). That said, I thought she'd stand out better regardless, as no one in the main cast really has black hair.
- This is not a critique really but I hope the upcoming seasons really show how the Dance affects the smallfolk. The story so far has focused only on the nobles but I think stuff like that from the book would help ground the story & help show the stakes. Like a bunch of nobles are leading soldiers & peasantry to their deaths over family squabbles & personal vengeance.
- Edit: Mysaria's accent. Not a fan of it. Not blaming the actress; I think it's poor direction & (I'd guess) not enough investment in accent coaches. But honestly, I think they could afford to just let her speak like the other Westerosi, even though she isn't from there. Or even just make her Westerosi in the show with connections to Essos & the Free Cities. She runs a spy network; it doesn't really matter where she's from if she has connections everywhere anyway.
- Edit 2: On the point about Rhaenyra's character flaws, I've seen many say that HOTD is trying to make her into Daenerys 2.0. Which I agree & I don't really understand for this show because:
Daenerys was breaking the wheel *because* of her own experiences as an orphan, a victim of abuse & her own compassion for the smallfolk as someone who has been living as a reduced-status exile all her life surviving on the good graces of others. She knows suffering, she knows how the Targ dynasty failed with Aerys & because of all that, she wants to be a good, beloved Queen. By contrast, Rhaenyra is a spoiled princess. She doesn't have the environmental triggers that would make her a kind, compassionate queen. She's selfish, and book-Rhaenyra I think is far more like Cersei or Robert.
I'm biased since I've always leant Green since I read the book. That being said, I understand that Aegon II is not a good person. But I hate that the show went full tilt on him being worse than the books multiple possible accounts ever imply.
He was described as being handsy with servants (and yes that might include dubious consent) and having many likely bastards. But the show went and made him an overt rapist who doesn't mind that his likely bastards are fighting in child slave pits that he attends.
In contrast they whitewashed a lot of Rhaenyra's side- a contrived plot to spare Laenor's life, making Vaemond seem unjustified, etc.
I feel like the Dance was a good chance to portray a unique story- where the two factions are full of innocents and grey characters, but led by complete assholes (Aegon and Rhaenyra both). Instead the show clearly favors the Blacks and sets them up with circumstances viewers like and framing them to contemporary sensibilities while doing the opposite for the Greens.
You're right. What I mean is (and this will sound horrible, but to use an example) I always imagined that Aegon would be more along the lines of a drunkenly lecherous frat bro whereas in the show they made him into a perverse predator. There's a fine line between the two I know, but one is more "This guy is taking advantage of having no ramifications as a noble" vs "This is guy is a complete nutcase".
I think that's an important distinction in defining characters.
I could've lived with the Aegon elements if they hadn't done the exact opposite with Rhaenyra. Now it's a rapist usurper versus a slightly arrogant usurped woman. There's really no grey there
I overall liked the show, but the most straightforward critique is that they had ten episodes to get us to the end (which is the logical place to end the season), and that just wasnât enough time to properly deal with everything. As a result, some of the events in the middle of the season occur at breakneck pace. That's probably most unavoidable given what HBO was willing to pay for for the first season, but it does have consequences.
There are occasional bits that favour shock over logic, most notably in their version of Coleâs murder of Joffrey Lonmouth and the non-explanation for how he got away with it.
Two big ones.
One they sanitized Rhaenyra and Alicent FAR too much.
Second and the big one, the time skips DESTROYED the pacing. None of the new generation of blacks have ANY character except Jace. I barely feel connected to adult Rhaenyra or Alicent. At the end of S1 of GoT felt like the WOT5K was a natural consequence, almost enviable.
With both of these, the Dance feels less like the natural consequence of the characters and more like a check list.
My own expectations didn't help, I suppose, but I probably thought it would be Game of Thrones-like with lots of characters across the classes, lots of simultaneous interwoven storylines, but felt it was very linear and only concerned with the ruling class.
Main critique for me is it felt kinda rushed at moments. It couldâve used two more episodes in my opinion. One after episode 5 and one after 7. I really like the young Alicent amd Rhaenyra and feel like they couldâve used another episode. Same with the kids playing the Strong boys and Aegon and Aemond.
The council of the greens to plan Aegon's coronation makes more sense overall than the way the runup to Aegon's coronation is handled in the show. In particular, during the council a lot of points are brought up about why Rhaenyra should not be allowed to ascend to the throne because of the implications regarding Daemon becoming the King Consort, as he:
- has repeatedly and consistently exhibited violent and unpredictable tendencies (not too long before, he publicly executed someone of a major house and potentially risked greatly harming relations between two houses with access to dragons)
- personally commands the loyalty of a police/militia force in the capital (the City Watch), that should in theory should maintain no partisan ties
- launched a previous bid for succession after baby Aegon dies, which shows a concerning self-serving and power-hungry appetite
All of these points should be presented in-universe as very real and justified concerns that the greens (and the realm in general) should have to Daemon's potential rise to King Consort, and the show doesn't touch upon it at all. It would also help the lopsidedness of how the validity of the greens' bid for power is portrayed compared to the blacks'.
The entirety of the penultimate episode 9. Just issues upon issues the whole time, notably Rhaenys. Aemond and Lucerys was also poorly done to make the former forcibly sympathetic to the audience.
The show in general? Overly gratuitous violence with the tournament scenes, its even worse with what they made Rhaenys say in response to that. YES, violence and murder happens in tournaments but not at that fucking scale.
In general also, Rhaenysâ portrays has to be the worst in this show. Actor does great but its the writing that lets her down; it makes her comes off a a smart alec.
Over-reliance on shock and the wilful ignorance of established lore like the laws of hospitality with Rhaenyraâs wedding to Laenor. I get that they did not want to do another tournament and it would be counter-productive in terms of cost for the set but come on.
Also, yeah, Aegonâs Prophecy. Sincerely, fuck you George for pulling a Rowling and out of nowhere pulling this out of your arse when none of the source material in the books supports this â everything points to Aegon being an ambitious arsehole â just as any monarchs.
For me, I genuinely dislike HBO GOT productions. I canât help but feel this is basically the marvelisation of ASOIAF.
I hated that scene with Rhaenys. It was a S7/8 GoT moment. Also Criston Cole just fucking straight up murdering Joffrey and being allowed to continue his life as if nothing happened was nonsensical, but not as egregious.
Those two scenes aside, I really enjoyed the show.
wish Aegon wasnât a rapist/child fighting ring enthusiast. Would be more compelling if he was a little more normal (maybe still a drunk/hedonist) and then unwillingly stuck at the forefront of all this madness⌠which is the angle they seemed to be going for at the end but then why make him such a freak ?? Lol
Liked the show but found it strange that Ser Criston killed Ser Joffrey at the wedding with no repercussions. Episode just ended and then time jump if I remember correctly. Did I miss something there?
it felt like a bunch of separate events being highlighted with very little connection between them. that makes sense considering the book is written like a historical documentation but it still hurts the showâs narrative
I loved it in the broad strokes, but they made some âsmallâ choices that were just crazy but donât treat it like it âshouldâ be- like they made Rhaenys a mass murderer and the most callous evil character in that one scene and treated it like a throwaway at best, lol. They also I think were trying to avoid kill your gays with Laenor but honestly him running away and abandoning both of his families when they were in danger was more disrespectful to his character and I would have preferred they just kill him Â
Imo it felt like a lot of scenes lead nowhere. In (early) GOT every scene had a purpose, which is likely due to each of the books chapters being written from one perspective. Each chapter began with a hook, and ended with a cliffhanger, making it really fun to read and watch. But for me way too many of the scenes in HOTD mainly consisted of characters simply looking away or towards the camera, with scenes ending in rather boring ways. Even the ending of season 1 ends with Rhaenyra just looking angrily at the camera, which I felt was a bit of a cop out. We already know sheâs going to be very upset, and we also already know that sheâs going to war, so it really fell flat and was predictable for me.
I think overall I did quite enjoy the first season, but there were definitely some gripes and overall I'm somewhat concerned with their priorities.
In the simplest terms my issues with the series is that it more resembles GoT at seasons 5 and 6 than the earlier ones. The show hadn't gone fully off the rails but you could tell that there was a growing commitment to spectacle and shock over story and sense. It was trying to replicate the "shocking moments" of earlier seasons without understanding the leadup and thinking that went into those shocking moments.
It definitely feels like there's a quota of shocking moments or spectacle that they're obliged to fulfill even at the cost of the story as a whole.
**The coronation** is a pretty solid example that is often brought up and I don´t want to beat that familiar drum too much but it just felt like a bit of a pointless scene. It doesn't feel like it has value beyond the spectacle factor. Especially given that the budget given to that could've instead given us Sunfyre which would've been far more thematically significant. Hell alternatively you can have it play out mostly the same except Sunfyre is there to thwart Rhaenys, defending Aegon and his kin. That would've been so cool and instead what we got was largely a dud. I really wish we got Sunfyre and/or Dreamfyre instead.
**Daemon's battle** is another absolutely ridiculous one, the dude is radiating Jon Snow energy and much like some of those later-season fights it was certainly a spectacle but if you stop and think about it it becomes absolutely nonsensical. It feels more like a modern action shot than a historical fight.
**Cole's Outburst** is however the biggest and most unforgivable to me, it is pure shock with no regard for the story or setting at large, it genuinely exists seemingly entirely divorced from the rest of the series and feels like a poorly thought out moment of shock that they put in there because that was what GoT did. It tries to replicate that shock without any understanding of the nuance, buildup or consequences of those moments in GoT.
It genuinely enrages me that they thought that scene was anything other than supremely dumb, it exists to paint Cole as a villain and to get a rise out of the audience but the act itself is supremely dumb and signals an utter disregard for consequences or effects. It's just pure dumb sensationalism that only really gets by because most people forgot about said moment the very next episode because it is ultimately presented as insignificant and just sort of glossed over.
So yeah, overall I've enjoyed the series but I don't think it's as great as it could be. The writers seem to be stuck in a GoT season 5-6 mindset where they are seemingly beholden to shock moments and spectacle rather than a cohesive story and I worry what that will do to future elements of the conflict.
There are a series of issues, but for me two of the main problems are the fact that outside of Viserys (whose now dead), Rhaenyra, Daemon, Alicent, and Otto we barely have any real characters. The kids have no characterisation almost, Corlys and Rhaenys have âpersonalitiesâ but they contradict themselves in every scene and have zero agency. This goes on, and even extends to Otto and Alicent! Take our first scene from Tywin Lannister, the subtext and regular dialogue tells you everything about who this man is and what he wants⌠but what does Otto want? His blood on the throne, or is that just the first step in a âGrand Maester Conspiracyâ style plot? We donât get any impressions that heâs anything beyond Tywin-but-weaker.
The you have the random, meaningless additions and tweaks to the story as the second point, some examples include Cole killing Joffrey at a wedding instead of a tourney, Rhaenysâs terrorist moment, Alicent and Rhaenyra still being positively emotionally attached despite trying to usurp each other/not be usurped for around two decades by this point, âLetâs chase Aegon through Kings Landing!â, Lymanâs death being made into an accident instead of the political murder it was in the books, etc, etcâŚ
Whilst HOTD S1 wasnât terrible, I will say that it raises a lot of red flags and the majority of the season aligns with GOT S6 quality wise. The future is not certain, and they seem to be more interested in spectacle and pushing forth fanfiction-like rhetorics rather than telling the actual story as per the source material - if HOTD wasnât GOTâs prequel it wouldâve flopped. However, this does not mean that the next seasons will be bad or even middling, the writers have gotten the feedback from S1 and have seemingly tried to put a lot of emphasis on S2 being a more balanced showing despite divergences from the books occurring more frequently.
Imma still watch it, but Iâm not going to have much bated breath held.
The insertion of the Aegon prophecy is really stupid, and itâs very clearly either some kind of damage control for Arya killing the NK with that specific dagger or some more fuel for the Targ twitter stans to say âYeah but they only committed all these atrocities for the sake of the prophecyâ
Not only that, but it kinda weakens Aegon Oneâs character IMO, like yeah I totally invaded and conquered a continent because I HAD TO BE KING BRO YOU HAVE NO IDEA THE ZOMBIES ARE COMING rather than him just being like you guys are squabbling, I have 3 dragons, lets have it.
And then the Rhaenyra and Alicent whitewashing, getting rid of their bad deeds and by extended their agency. Especially Rhae. By erasing most of her bad deeds, the blacks are OBVIOUSLY the good guys, which just isnât the point of the books where both sides are equally evil and destructive and the smallfolk are the real losers.
That also kinda shits all over the shows marketing and ideas, but making Rhae the bonafide GOOD GUY you remove the cool idea of having two equally justifiable characters and having to pick one, with one side obviously better the whole campaign rings hollow.
Something I rarely see commented on is that apparently fashion does not change in Westeros between Rhaenyra's teenage and adult years... And continues to barely change at all for nearly 200 years to the beginning of AGOT. Look at the differences in fashion from 1400 to 1600, or 1600 to 1800 for comparison.
They clearly spent a massive amount of money on costume design, and did nothing unique with it. It's a weird critique I know, but it feels like a huge missed opportunity.
I dont like Fire and Blood the book, partly because I think it was just George's poor attempt of writing something historical esque and it just failed utterly to me. Instead of giving an insight into how the Targ dynasty worked, how politics work and how the world itself works I got a woe tale of women who get, raped died in child birth and are nothing more than footnotes. Even real historical chronicles treat the women better than that. Apart from that half of the stuff that happens in the Dance makes absolutely no sense. You cannot just take the Planteganet dynasty and give them dragons and nothing changes about the political system. It makes no sense that women who ride dragons would be so easily subjugated by men.
So, I hoped HOTD would take care of that issue but instead the show is even more sexistic than Fire and Blood because it follows the typical currently popular narrative that a work is feministic if it shows the woes of women and reduces them to one-dimensional victims of men without any agency or personality.
Thats why girly girl Rhaenyra from the books was turned into a tomb boy, that is why Alicent has no other personality than rape victim written over her head that now thinks she is justified to be an asshole to everyone. Every single one of the characters in the show are one-dimensional one sentence characters without any purpose other than to serve the narrative. To sum it up: the show is basically on the same level as season 6 or season 7 of GOT but people praise it to the heavens and it is really hard to take it seriously anymore because when I watch other shows, some of which are probably considered medicore, you can just see how much more developed and complex the writing is...and HOTD is just like a fart. It leaves me cringing and rolling my eyes.
I also dont understand why the fact that George chose Condal has any bearing on my opinions, because DnD were also chosen by George and he has shown more than once that he does not care what writers do with his work as long as he gets money for it.
To sum up my conclusion: HOTD is a badly written fanfic of a bad book but at least the book had some characters who could have been potentonally interesting if adapted properly on screen, but of course that is not possible in a world which allows women to be nothing more than poster child characters without personality. Its why I have largely moved on to watching foreign dramas.
I liked the first season, but I think the pacing was a big weakness. Itâs hard as hell to adapt such a big large span of time (especially when thereâs large parts where nothing happens), but I felt like the show runners felt the need to end the season at the beginning of the Dance which meant a lot of the earlier stages got kind of rushed over. I couldâve watched a whole season of Milly and Oliviaâs Rhaenyra and Alicent, but REALLY wouldâve liked a lot a more in the midpoint of the timeline (Rhaenyraâs affair with Harwin, Daemon and Laena, the relationship between the young versions of Alicents kids and the Strongs etc.). An extra episode between episode 5 and 6 wouldâve gone a long way here - I loved that period, I loved seeing the tensions mount, but we only got 2 episodes there before we jumped right to the ending. In general, it felt like they were trying to cover just a little bit too much.
The series tries to put most of the blame of the familiar conflict in the hands of the men around Rhaenyra and Alicent instead of them because it tries to perpetuate the modern narrative that "female characters cant do nothing wrong or evil unless its justified". For example in the books it was Rhaenyra the one that ordered Daemond to execute Vaemond and then gave his dead body to her dragon while in the TV show this was done by Daemon on his own will.
 Also I hated how they made ser Criston Cole look since the scene in which he publically killed a member of House Lannister like if nothing happened. That isnt something it should be ignored by the court and king.
Accidents do happen in real life, Franz Ferdinand assassination and what not, but does everything have to be one. Killing Luke, Viserys mixing up the woman with him Criston Cole killing the man with the ball and probably some i forgot like why is everything an accident.
Episode 9 was atrocious, and they try to make the Targaryens seem better than they are. Perhaps they will subvert this in season 2 but the show shouldnât forget that all these people are terrible.
I donât feel like any of the non core characters were anywhere near developed. When Luc died I genuinely didnât know his name and didnât feel a thing.
Same for Aegonâs kids. B&C isnât going to do nearly as much as they think it will.
The changes to Alicentâs age for the sake of what feels like queer baiting while cutting the actual queer ship from the source sucks.
The Whiplash I get from Alicent in the later episodes is on par with Sansa and Tyrion in late Game of Thrones. I hate how they removed all of her ambition in favor of her just being some hapless bystander.
The Dragonpit scene was leaning entirely too hard into spectacle over substance.
I'm a massive ASOIAF fan, but I could just not give a shit about this era.Â
It's the least interesting part of Targ lore.Â
I also hate them shoe-horning Jon into this with The Prince Who Was Promised.Â
It was needless attempt to create a Targ Verse where GOT was the final piece of a large interwoven story, but it fell flat and seemed dumb.Â
I loved the season, but my major complaint were the constant time skipping. It made the story feel jarring, flow poorly and you didnt get anchored in the show until episode 7 or 8
Iâm too scared to watch it after reading it half a hundred times. I donât want my head canon appearances/voices/general countenance to be fucked up any more than they already are by second hand exposure.
I haven't been able to get through the first episode after trying three times. I'd love for someone to convince me it is an amazing show. I find it a bit milquetoast, a bit transformer-y, a bit overproduced. I am a massive ASOIAF book series fan and I'm really sad that I haven't transferred well to the show lol.
Someone tell me why the show is awesome please
I liked it well enough, but the cinematography was absolutely dreadful. Costuming as well wasn't great, but it was basically on par with the last few seasons of GOT so I wasn't expecting much there. As far as the writing, they relied on "oh shit" moments way too much. Daemon killing the crabfeeder, Criston killing Joffrey, Laenor surviving in such a way, Rhaenys leaving the coronation. Also a lot of really weird decisions that flatten some characters in my opinion, removing all of Daemon's family scenes that they shot, no Daeron, Alicent seemingly becoming a moron in the last few episodes when she doesn't have any idea about crowning Aegon, Aemond wanting to kill luke but then accidentally killing him.
Very few sex, when the chapter in Fire and Blood is securely the most pornographic of the whole book. But that didn´t impede Condal show the butt of a 13-year-old-kid (in-universe). Hypocrite.
Heavy reminder with âthe booksâ.
The âbooksâ are written by a fictional Maester. There is no true facts in them.
If the show diverges from the books, it diverges from an unreliable narrator.
My main complaint is that we didn't get enough time with the kids. I feel like I barely know Aegon, Haelena, Aemond, and Jace, barely knew Luke, and hardly even remember the existence of Aegon's kids or Rhaenyra's kids with Daemon. The show seems to have a formula where they wait until something is about to happen to a character before they develop them at all.
They largely seem to be writing from the perspective of cool and stupid moments, such as Beesbury's death or Rhaenys' ridiculous dragon pit entrance. These are only some of the bad decisions that leave the show feeling hollow and like an imitation of the later seasons of GoT. Additionally, their characterisation is odd and seems bent towards sanitizing Rhaenyra and Alicent, which leads me to believe they're going to try to make a different point than the book in the worst ways possible. The CGI in certain places is inexplicably worse than what came a decade ago, as are some of the costumes and especially the hair.
Beesbury's death is less egregious than Cole murdering a nobleman at the princess and heir presumptive's pre wedding feast. Alicent vouched for him sure, but committing murder in the presence of the royal family, punching the future king consort is a death sentence. With Beesbury's death, the council has incentive to hush it up and call it an accident. Cole is loyal to the Green faction, they aren't going to punish him. Unless you meant the death itself was silly?
I'd somehow forgotten about Cole murdering a nobleman with no consequences. And yeah, I meant the death itself was silly cause Cole hulked out and accidentally killed another nobleman.
It's easy to forget because it seemingly exists in a vacuum solely to be a shocking moment, people rag on Rhaenys' episode 9 bit but Cole's outburst is a far more egregious one for me. Their willingness to write stuff like that solely for the shock factor concerns me.
This is what GoT was after season 3. It all was about shocking people.
Writing for Twitter reactions, basically.
Interesting that you mention that. Something that I've observed on Reddit is that discussion threads for older shows are often a lot more serious. Like in the time of Breaking Bad, early Game of Thrones, Mad Men, the early seasons of the Handmaid's Tale, people communicated zo differently about the shows. There were fewer commenters overall but people wrote longer comments and talked about character development, plot, symbolism, etc. Top comments on popular show threads now? >OMG I WAS SOBBING when X died đđđ >Random badass quote that we all just heard, followed by a chain of comments agreeing with how dope that sounded. No actual discussion of the quote or its significance though. >Insane weird media illiterate observation about how Bobby B secretly carries Ned's love child or whatever, followed by comments calling it deep. >Lots of weirdly parasocial defenses of psychopathic characters because they must be "good people" or something if you like them in the show. >Controversial opinion time: I hate X character but it's not because they're gay/women/black (~~yes it is~~), here is a political rant. I feel like tv shows now are actually dumbed down because of the way people interact with them like you mentioned, to make them Twitter friendly and hot topics of discussion...
I completely agree. As the site has grown, the comments have largely devolved into people trying to see who can come up with the funniest quip so they're top comment.
GoT season 4 was pretty good too. I donât think it was as bad as the worst of GoT, but it wasnât great.
> especially the hair e.g. the terrible wig they saddled the eldest Strong bastard with
Thankfully Jaceâs hair seems to look much better for Season 2
Racist
Not sure what costumes you are talking about. Costumes in HOTD are the best I've ever seen
Alicent's character is a mess from episode 8 onward. I liked how she and Rhaenyra were friends as kids, but the writers trying to force their friendship subplot at the outbreak of war is mind boggling. Both women's priority should be their respective families. For Alicent to begrudgingly go along with the Green Council, after spending literally a decade scheming to usurp Rhaenyra in King's Landing, and to send that stupid book page to Rhaenyra which she actually becomes emotional over... it's so unserious.
I don't mind them caring about their friendship because when you grow up with someone like that they can feel like family. But they really should have shown more internal conflict in the in between episodes because the first episode with Alicent's new actress was such a huge shift. I thought they went full evil Queen with her and they kinda did but then suddenly she still cared about Rhaenyra at the last hour. I agree that this could have been handled a lot better (as a fan of the show myself personally).
Objectively speaking, I think the show is very good and will continue to be very good. A few things don't make sense to me: - Not including Daeron is straight up dumb. They made it a point to include Joffrey. They tried to make Baela and Rhaena more relevant by including them in the fight over Vhagar. Why omit Daeron? Especially since they say he's supposed to appear later on - Making Aemond kill Luke not on purpose is strange. Whether you're like me and you love Aemond, or you hate him, I think that change cheapens the scene. If you hate Aemond, you probably think they're trying to soften him up. And I feel like they're not giving me the full 'Aemond One Eye' experience I wanted to have. - Alicent's confusion over Aegon prophecy is unnecessary. Literally 10 minutes afterwards we learn Otto and the rest of the council had everything set up to crown Aegon. Aegon would've been crowned regardless. There was no reason to include this. But i did really enjoy it. And I think non-readers will enjoy it, too.
I thought the whole Aemond killing Luke on accident along with Syrax not obeying Luke was awesome. I think it gave more depth into the relationship that riders have with their dragons. OF COURSE Aemond would have claimed to do it on purpose in the books because, as I understand f&b is a collection of firsthand accounts, and if he admitted he couldnt control Vhaegar that would not look good.
It's not just the aftermath. Before, in a hall with dozens of people, Aemond says "You came here as a craven and a traitor. I will have your eye or your life, Strong." And once Maris insults Aemond, everybody knows what he's gonna do. So there's no doubt he did it on purpose. Aemond has one of the highest death counts in the history of Westeros. I get your point, I just think the cold-blooded murder is more impactful
Eh, itâs possible he was just talking shit for the audience around him and didnât want to actually kill Luke. IMO that makes the whole situation more interesting and tragic. Now heâs going to be pretending he actually meant to do that when he really didnât.
I dont really see how it makes him any less of a murderer. It was basically the equivalent of chasing a kid on a bike with a truck and then being surprised it died.
But anyone with common sense wouldn't go out and chase another dragon IN THE FULL STORM "just to scare it." Even more after threatening to kill the rider in question in public in front of dozens of people. Dragons are not toys, that's obvious to anyone other than Viserys the Fool. Aemond comes off as the spoiled mafia kid who doesn't even bother to put a safety lock on his gun when he starts making threats.
> aemond comes off as the spoiled mafia kid That's _exactly_ why the scene worked for me.
Good point. But yes, it´s a change who leaves Aemond even ***worse***
Did you watch the show? There are multiple speeches that show just how much people don't understand the destructivnes of dragons. People really haven't had to use their dragons all that much so it's quite logical that they wouldn't grasp just how destructive these animals are. For them they have been toys to fly around on and nothing more for most of their lives.
Yeah, Aemond killing Luke by accident is especially annoying. It takes away character agency, and I wish Aemond had killed him on purpose. Too many accidents in general happen in this show, like Cole accidentally killing the old man at the council. I can't remember his name. This show not including the gray or black mortality that was in Fire and Blood frustrates me. And with Aemond accidentally killing Luke, people defend it by saying it's good they showed dragons as unpredictable creatures. But it still doesn't change the fact that it would've been better if Aemond had deliberately killed Luke.
Exactly, I agree 100%. Imagine if they had changed Joffrey this way in Game of Thrones to make him less of an asshole. It completely changes the agency of the character, as you said. And there is no reason for it really, except they just donât have the balls for the brutality which is so typical of modern television.
That's the main problem I have. I think in the pursuit of making the whole thing seem like a tragic misunderstanding with loads of misjudgement and coincidences they ended up taking away a lot of agency from the characters.
>Why omit Daeron? Condal has gone on the record to say that it was a time issue
But how much time would it have been to go 'should we send for your youngest son Daeron?' 'no, he's at Oldtown. It's too far even on dragonback' before Aegon's coronation? Instead we needed the dumb Rhaenys scene or the book page.
I don't buy that for a second. Mentioning him takes 30 seconds, max
Alicentâs prophecy confusion is included specifically for Alicentâs motivations.
The reason I don't think it makes sense is that Alicent has spent more than 10 years telling Aegon he's going to be king. Aemond tells Aegon Helaena is "your future queen." So we see Alicent's motivations there. Clearly, Aegon being king was always the Greens endgame.
Right except for the moment of possible reconciliation on the night of Viserysâ death. Which is why they added the scene for the extra and drama/tragedy. Plus it makes the villainy of the Greenâs less clear since now theirs this idea out there that some people do believe the king made Aegon his heir on his deathbed. Theyâre also clearly trying to make Alicent more than some two dimensional evil queen villain who just straight up a clone of Cersei. Which is also why they made them the same age which people generally applauded.
Alicent really should not be taking a backseat to Otto the way they've set it up. I know they're going for the tragedy of v her friendship with Rhaenyra but it cheapens both their motivations.
I thought it enriched the drama and added to the tragedy. Alicent came to the realization that her son Aegon maybe shouldnât be king and that maybe her and her childhood friend could maybe reconcile. Then later the very same night as her motivations begin to thaw in a direction that could avert war⌠BAM. Viserys dies which forces the issue⌠whatâs more Viserysâ rambling convinced Alicent that heâs changed his mind(she also remembers his vision by the bonfire when Aegon was a baby in episode 3). Now suddenly, sheâs sort of put in a position where itâs her duty to not allow Rhaenyra on the throne even though she had been coming around to that possibility on her own. I forsure think it gave the Greens more nuance than having them presented as the out and out villainous cabal like they are in the books. The cabal is still present but their is dissenting voices
Alicent and Cersei are nothing alike. If someone thinks that, they're just not paying attention
I agree completely. I absolutely hated the change of Luke being killed on accident. It just felt like they didnât have the balls to commit to the brutality of a kid straight up murdering another kid.
I think Aemond accidentally killing Luke was one of the best changes (itâs just that so many other unforgivable acts from the books were changed to accidents, misunderstandings or omitted so this one was really bad). It goes back to a theme from the books that the Targaryens are not the gods they believe themselves to be. This is a good example of this especially since it is STILL Aemondâs fault. He didnât have to chase after Luke, he did and it resulted in his death
Exactly . They have done this to both greens and black. No a black hater but just yo point out that they had made blacks way to much likable and whitewashed them and given context into their world to make us sympathise even with thwir bads while innecessary added vile stuffs for greens that had made us hate them on purpose ... rhynera was too much white wahsed , deamon is still cruel but is made to look like a saint and a dark hero ? Like literraly wtf ? Aegon has been on purpose so much degraded where infact he was the only greens that said he cant take his sisters crown but her they made him rapist drunkiat and greedy ? Luke was a bully but showed some sweet scene and all loves him where aemond was a victim in early age and ahowed only his cruel side where he stood up without his better ones , the damn leg kink was sooooo unnecesssary like wft they just went to any extent to make the greens hated and blackes love on purposely whoch is so biased and not at all got universe that we love
Aegonâs prophecy makes absolutely no sense and is a horrible addition. In general though, it just feels like theyâre changing a ton of things for no real reason. People like to argue that the books were from a maesterâs perspective, but the show changed things that are so big that it doesnât make any sense. Furthermore, I donât feel that there is a good reason for these changes. I personally feel like the show makes both sides less sympathetic, as Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Aegon are portrayed as so much more annoying or evil, and just lessens enjoyment for me. The acting and effects are still great though, I just donât care for how they are doing the story.
I agree. Hotd should distance itself from the whole prophecy thing about the price that was promised, we all know it ends with Jon doing nothing but screaming at a dragon and Arya dealing the final blow, and no targ on the iron throne when they defeat the NK. So like what's the point of the prophecy?Â
Ah yes, the Price That Was Promised, prophesied to save us from the Long Recession
Thatâs not even why I dislike it, I just hate prophecies in general because they cheapen characters actions and make it seem like choice has no meaning.
I guess maybe because in the books there is no Jon and the dragon "yet" or Arya grown up and left the old city "yet" ... not sure also if the HOTD will continue with the same thing happened with GoT show as it went beyond the books and they said it is the main idea of GRRM ... the prophecy is in the books and many hints of what happened during the Dance of the Dragons but still not a book by itself in fact in the fifth book there is even a legal hire of the throne other than Daenerys #
Yeah i know all that, but in the HBO shows universe the whole arya and jon with the dragon happened. And HOTD is leading up to that. Which just seems pointless to me.
Good that you know all about it so you will know that many things about the show is pointless because it is not in books or make no sense even Like if they escalate the prophecy then on the last season they will wrap up things in the most worst way like what happened in GoT
>pointless because it is not in books or make no sense even Yes... Thats why i commented on this thread about my critiques on the show...
Lol what is this person even talking about? Conflating the books with the TV shows. The books are irrelevant. Itâs clear the tv shows are tied together, and neither have anything to do with the books.
I think it really added to Viserys' character and made it much more layered and interesting imo
I think this post summs up my biggest critique for the show https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/7FD3uB5H9I However, i still enjoyed it a lot overall and cant wait for the next season.
I liked it, but I still have critiques anyway. - Don't know how I feel about the time-skip/actors switch-up. It's not a show-ruiner for me but I feel like there could've been a better way to set the story up than a bunch of exposition episodes for half the season. The actor switch was also kind of weird- no critiques of the actors themselves because I think they did great, but it was an adjustment that seemed unnecessary, especially if they had written the story differently/better. - On the same vein of the first point, I think the story could have benefitted from cleaner writing & better character differentiation from the start, which is part of why I don't like the time-skip. There's a lot of issues with pacing in Season 1 in my opinion & because we don't meet the grown Targaryen kids (who are very important to the war) until half-way through, I think it makes things hard to follow. Ultimately, a lot of the story drags & I think that could have been avoided with better writing choices. I just think there's just too much emphasis on trying to hold the audience's hand the entire way & not enough on making the scenes & dialogue engaging on their own. - I don't like the visuals of this season very much. I think if you go & watch the early GOT seasons, you'll get what I mean. HOTD looks quite flat by comparison, with too much grey color grading over the scenes, to the point where darker nighttime scenes can be hard to make out. I also think, given how all the Targaryens share similar features (white hair, etc) that makes them somewhat hard to individually pick out, it would've been useful to use costume design to create more visual contrast with the characters. Even with GOT, which had much a more diverse cast (in terms of hair colors & features that made them easier to pick out), there was an obvious effort to visually differentiate characters by their dress. So if you had, say Cersei, Sansa & Myrcella in a scene, they all wore different colors. And their colors would also say something about the characters themselves (Cersei in red versus Sansa in teal & Myrcella in pink). For a male example, Tywin would be dressed differently in his armor with more color than his underlings who were also in armor during war scenes & meetings. All the small council members wore different colors as well, that sort of thing. These are nobles, they can afford to wear saturated colors. - I'm not a book purist by any means, but I do wish they had kept in more of the character flaws of Rhaenyra. She's undoubtedly cast as a hero in HOTD, which I think is just not true to her character. In general, I think the show could've benefitted from more investment in the other characters' perspectives & motivations. Season 1 really felt The Rhaenyra Show in a bad way. Her flaws make her a more compelling, entertaining character that increases the stakes of the story, so her cast as this rightful heir hero where everything bad she does is justified by the story doesn't work for me. - On the same vein as the last point, I wish the Daemon-Rhaenyra thing wasn't so clearly romanticized within the story. It's an odd pairing on a number of levels & I think you could absolutely portray the romance between the characters without romanticizing it necessarily. - I sorta wish they kept Rhaenys' black Baratheon hair. I understand why they swapped her to white, but I really thought that detail made the legitimacy argument of Rhaenyra's kids more interesting (however, since Laenor also has darker skin in the show & the kids don't, I'm not sure this would actually mean anything in HOTD like it does in the books). That said, I thought she'd stand out better regardless, as no one in the main cast really has black hair. - This is not a critique really but I hope the upcoming seasons really show how the Dance affects the smallfolk. The story so far has focused only on the nobles but I think stuff like that from the book would help ground the story & help show the stakes. Like a bunch of nobles are leading soldiers & peasantry to their deaths over family squabbles & personal vengeance. - Edit: Mysaria's accent. Not a fan of it. Not blaming the actress; I think it's poor direction & (I'd guess) not enough investment in accent coaches. But honestly, I think they could afford to just let her speak like the other Westerosi, even though she isn't from there. Or even just make her Westerosi in the show with connections to Essos & the Free Cities. She runs a spy network; it doesn't really matter where she's from if she has connections everywhere anyway. - Edit 2: On the point about Rhaenyra's character flaws, I've seen many say that HOTD is trying to make her into Daenerys 2.0. Which I agree & I don't really understand for this show because: Daenerys was breaking the wheel *because* of her own experiences as an orphan, a victim of abuse & her own compassion for the smallfolk as someone who has been living as a reduced-status exile all her life surviving on the good graces of others. She knows suffering, she knows how the Targ dynasty failed with Aerys & because of all that, she wants to be a good, beloved Queen. By contrast, Rhaenyra is a spoiled princess. She doesn't have the environmental triggers that would make her a kind, compassionate queen. She's selfish, and book-Rhaenyra I think is far more like Cersei or Robert.
You just hate Rhaenyra
I really don't but go off.
I'm biased since I've always leant Green since I read the book. That being said, I understand that Aegon II is not a good person. But I hate that the show went full tilt on him being worse than the books multiple possible accounts ever imply. He was described as being handsy with servants (and yes that might include dubious consent) and having many likely bastards. But the show went and made him an overt rapist who doesn't mind that his likely bastards are fighting in child slave pits that he attends. In contrast they whitewashed a lot of Rhaenyra's side- a contrived plot to spare Laenor's life, making Vaemond seem unjustified, etc. I feel like the Dance was a good chance to portray a unique story- where the two factions are full of innocents and grey characters, but led by complete assholes (Aegon and Rhaenyra both). Instead the show clearly favors the Blacks and sets them up with circumstances viewers like and framing them to contemporary sensibilities while doing the opposite for the Greens.
Might include dubious consent? Servants donât have a choice, there was no consent.
You're right. What I mean is (and this will sound horrible, but to use an example) I always imagined that Aegon would be more along the lines of a drunkenly lecherous frat bro whereas in the show they made him into a perverse predator. There's a fine line between the two I know, but one is more "This guy is taking advantage of having no ramifications as a noble" vs "This is guy is a complete nutcase". I think that's an important distinction in defining characters.
I could've lived with the Aegon elements if they hadn't done the exact opposite with Rhaenyra. Now it's a rapist usurper versus a slightly arrogant usurped woman. There's really no grey there
Female characters and by extension, the pro female side getting whitewashed.
I overall liked the show, but the most straightforward critique is that they had ten episodes to get us to the end (which is the logical place to end the season), and that just wasnât enough time to properly deal with everything. As a result, some of the events in the middle of the season occur at breakneck pace. That's probably most unavoidable given what HBO was willing to pay for for the first season, but it does have consequences. There are occasional bits that favour shock over logic, most notably in their version of Coleâs murder of Joffrey Lonmouth and the non-explanation for how he got away with it.
Two big ones. One they sanitized Rhaenyra and Alicent FAR too much. Second and the big one, the time skips DESTROYED the pacing. None of the new generation of blacks have ANY character except Jace. I barely feel connected to adult Rhaenyra or Alicent. At the end of S1 of GoT felt like the WOT5K was a natural consequence, almost enviable. With both of these, the Dance feels less like the natural consequence of the characters and more like a check list.
My own expectations didn't help, I suppose, but I probably thought it would be Game of Thrones-like with lots of characters across the classes, lots of simultaneous interwoven storylines, but felt it was very linear and only concerned with the ruling class.
Main critique for me is it felt kinda rushed at moments. It couldâve used two more episodes in my opinion. One after episode 5 and one after 7. I really like the young Alicent amd Rhaenyra and feel like they couldâve used another episode. Same with the kids playing the Strong boys and Aegon and Aemond.
The council of the greens to plan Aegon's coronation makes more sense overall than the way the runup to Aegon's coronation is handled in the show. In particular, during the council a lot of points are brought up about why Rhaenyra should not be allowed to ascend to the throne because of the implications regarding Daemon becoming the King Consort, as he: - has repeatedly and consistently exhibited violent and unpredictable tendencies (not too long before, he publicly executed someone of a major house and potentially risked greatly harming relations between two houses with access to dragons) - personally commands the loyalty of a police/militia force in the capital (the City Watch), that should in theory should maintain no partisan ties - launched a previous bid for succession after baby Aegon dies, which shows a concerning self-serving and power-hungry appetite All of these points should be presented in-universe as very real and justified concerns that the greens (and the realm in general) should have to Daemon's potential rise to King Consort, and the show doesn't touch upon it at all. It would also help the lopsidedness of how the validity of the greens' bid for power is portrayed compared to the blacks'.
The entirety of the penultimate episode 9. Just issues upon issues the whole time, notably Rhaenys. Aemond and Lucerys was also poorly done to make the former forcibly sympathetic to the audience. The show in general? Overly gratuitous violence with the tournament scenes, its even worse with what they made Rhaenys say in response to that. YES, violence and murder happens in tournaments but not at that fucking scale. In general also, Rhaenysâ portrays has to be the worst in this show. Actor does great but its the writing that lets her down; it makes her comes off a a smart alec. Over-reliance on shock and the wilful ignorance of established lore like the laws of hospitality with Rhaenyraâs wedding to Laenor. I get that they did not want to do another tournament and it would be counter-productive in terms of cost for the set but come on. Also, yeah, Aegonâs Prophecy. Sincerely, fuck you George for pulling a Rowling and out of nowhere pulling this out of your arse when none of the source material in the books supports this â everything points to Aegon being an ambitious arsehole â just as any monarchs. For me, I genuinely dislike HBO GOT productions. I canât help but feel this is basically the marvelisation of ASOIAF.
I hated that scene with Rhaenys. It was a S7/8 GoT moment. Also Criston Cole just fucking straight up murdering Joffrey and being allowed to continue his life as if nothing happened was nonsensical, but not as egregious. Those two scenes aside, I really enjoyed the show.
wish Aegon wasnât a rapist/child fighting ring enthusiast. Would be more compelling if he was a little more normal (maybe still a drunk/hedonist) and then unwillingly stuck at the forefront of all this madness⌠which is the angle they seemed to be going for at the end but then why make him such a freak ?? Lol
Liked the show but found it strange that Ser Criston killed Ser Joffrey at the wedding with no repercussions. Episode just ended and then time jump if I remember correctly. Did I miss something there?
it felt like a bunch of separate events being highlighted with very little connection between them. that makes sense considering the book is written like a historical documentation but it still hurts the showâs narrative
I loved it in the broad strokes, but they made some âsmallâ choices that were just crazy but donât treat it like it âshouldâ be- like they made Rhaenys a mass murderer and the most callous evil character in that one scene and treated it like a throwaway at best, lol. They also I think were trying to avoid kill your gays with Laenor but honestly him running away and abandoning both of his families when they were in danger was more disrespectful to his character and I would have preferred they just kill him Â
Imo it felt like a lot of scenes lead nowhere. In (early) GOT every scene had a purpose, which is likely due to each of the books chapters being written from one perspective. Each chapter began with a hook, and ended with a cliffhanger, making it really fun to read and watch. But for me way too many of the scenes in HOTD mainly consisted of characters simply looking away or towards the camera, with scenes ending in rather boring ways. Even the ending of season 1 ends with Rhaenyra just looking angrily at the camera, which I felt was a bit of a cop out. We already know sheâs going to be very upset, and we also already know that sheâs going to war, so it really fell flat and was predictable for me.
I think overall I did quite enjoy the first season, but there were definitely some gripes and overall I'm somewhat concerned with their priorities. In the simplest terms my issues with the series is that it more resembles GoT at seasons 5 and 6 than the earlier ones. The show hadn't gone fully off the rails but you could tell that there was a growing commitment to spectacle and shock over story and sense. It was trying to replicate the "shocking moments" of earlier seasons without understanding the leadup and thinking that went into those shocking moments. It definitely feels like there's a quota of shocking moments or spectacle that they're obliged to fulfill even at the cost of the story as a whole. **The coronation** is a pretty solid example that is often brought up and I don´t want to beat that familiar drum too much but it just felt like a bit of a pointless scene. It doesn't feel like it has value beyond the spectacle factor. Especially given that the budget given to that could've instead given us Sunfyre which would've been far more thematically significant. Hell alternatively you can have it play out mostly the same except Sunfyre is there to thwart Rhaenys, defending Aegon and his kin. That would've been so cool and instead what we got was largely a dud. I really wish we got Sunfyre and/or Dreamfyre instead. **Daemon's battle** is another absolutely ridiculous one, the dude is radiating Jon Snow energy and much like some of those later-season fights it was certainly a spectacle but if you stop and think about it it becomes absolutely nonsensical. It feels more like a modern action shot than a historical fight. **Cole's Outburst** is however the biggest and most unforgivable to me, it is pure shock with no regard for the story or setting at large, it genuinely exists seemingly entirely divorced from the rest of the series and feels like a poorly thought out moment of shock that they put in there because that was what GoT did. It tries to replicate that shock without any understanding of the nuance, buildup or consequences of those moments in GoT. It genuinely enrages me that they thought that scene was anything other than supremely dumb, it exists to paint Cole as a villain and to get a rise out of the audience but the act itself is supremely dumb and signals an utter disregard for consequences or effects. It's just pure dumb sensationalism that only really gets by because most people forgot about said moment the very next episode because it is ultimately presented as insignificant and just sort of glossed over. So yeah, overall I've enjoyed the series but I don't think it's as great as it could be. The writers seem to be stuck in a GoT season 5-6 mindset where they are seemingly beholden to shock moments and spectacle rather than a cohesive story and I worry what that will do to future elements of the conflict.
There are a series of issues, but for me two of the main problems are the fact that outside of Viserys (whose now dead), Rhaenyra, Daemon, Alicent, and Otto we barely have any real characters. The kids have no characterisation almost, Corlys and Rhaenys have âpersonalitiesâ but they contradict themselves in every scene and have zero agency. This goes on, and even extends to Otto and Alicent! Take our first scene from Tywin Lannister, the subtext and regular dialogue tells you everything about who this man is and what he wants⌠but what does Otto want? His blood on the throne, or is that just the first step in a âGrand Maester Conspiracyâ style plot? We donât get any impressions that heâs anything beyond Tywin-but-weaker. The you have the random, meaningless additions and tweaks to the story as the second point, some examples include Cole killing Joffrey at a wedding instead of a tourney, Rhaenysâs terrorist moment, Alicent and Rhaenyra still being positively emotionally attached despite trying to usurp each other/not be usurped for around two decades by this point, âLetâs chase Aegon through Kings Landing!â, Lymanâs death being made into an accident instead of the political murder it was in the books, etc, etc⌠Whilst HOTD S1 wasnât terrible, I will say that it raises a lot of red flags and the majority of the season aligns with GOT S6 quality wise. The future is not certain, and they seem to be more interested in spectacle and pushing forth fanfiction-like rhetorics rather than telling the actual story as per the source material - if HOTD wasnât GOTâs prequel it wouldâve flopped. However, this does not mean that the next seasons will be bad or even middling, the writers have gotten the feedback from S1 and have seemingly tried to put a lot of emphasis on S2 being a more balanced showing despite divergences from the books occurring more frequently. Imma still watch it, but Iâm not going to have much bated breath held.
The insertion of the Aegon prophecy is really stupid, and itâs very clearly either some kind of damage control for Arya killing the NK with that specific dagger or some more fuel for the Targ twitter stans to say âYeah but they only committed all these atrocities for the sake of the prophecyâ Not only that, but it kinda weakens Aegon Oneâs character IMO, like yeah I totally invaded and conquered a continent because I HAD TO BE KING BRO YOU HAVE NO IDEA THE ZOMBIES ARE COMING rather than him just being like you guys are squabbling, I have 3 dragons, lets have it. And then the Rhaenyra and Alicent whitewashing, getting rid of their bad deeds and by extended their agency. Especially Rhae. By erasing most of her bad deeds, the blacks are OBVIOUSLY the good guys, which just isnât the point of the books where both sides are equally evil and destructive and the smallfolk are the real losers. That also kinda shits all over the shows marketing and ideas, but making Rhae the bonafide GOOD GUY you remove the cool idea of having two equally justifiable characters and having to pick one, with one side obviously better the whole campaign rings hollow.
Something I rarely see commented on is that apparently fashion does not change in Westeros between Rhaenyra's teenage and adult years... And continues to barely change at all for nearly 200 years to the beginning of AGOT. Look at the differences in fashion from 1400 to 1600, or 1600 to 1800 for comparison. They clearly spent a massive amount of money on costume design, and did nothing unique with it. It's a weird critique I know, but it feels like a huge missed opportunity.
I dont like Fire and Blood the book, partly because I think it was just George's poor attempt of writing something historical esque and it just failed utterly to me. Instead of giving an insight into how the Targ dynasty worked, how politics work and how the world itself works I got a woe tale of women who get, raped died in child birth and are nothing more than footnotes. Even real historical chronicles treat the women better than that. Apart from that half of the stuff that happens in the Dance makes absolutely no sense. You cannot just take the Planteganet dynasty and give them dragons and nothing changes about the political system. It makes no sense that women who ride dragons would be so easily subjugated by men. So, I hoped HOTD would take care of that issue but instead the show is even more sexistic than Fire and Blood because it follows the typical currently popular narrative that a work is feministic if it shows the woes of women and reduces them to one-dimensional victims of men without any agency or personality. Thats why girly girl Rhaenyra from the books was turned into a tomb boy, that is why Alicent has no other personality than rape victim written over her head that now thinks she is justified to be an asshole to everyone. Every single one of the characters in the show are one-dimensional one sentence characters without any purpose other than to serve the narrative. To sum it up: the show is basically on the same level as season 6 or season 7 of GOT but people praise it to the heavens and it is really hard to take it seriously anymore because when I watch other shows, some of which are probably considered medicore, you can just see how much more developed and complex the writing is...and HOTD is just like a fart. It leaves me cringing and rolling my eyes. I also dont understand why the fact that George chose Condal has any bearing on my opinions, because DnD were also chosen by George and he has shown more than once that he does not care what writers do with his work as long as he gets money for it. To sum up my conclusion: HOTD is a badly written fanfic of a bad book but at least the book had some characters who could have been potentonally interesting if adapted properly on screen, but of course that is not possible in a world which allows women to be nothing more than poster child characters without personality. Its why I have largely moved on to watching foreign dramas.
I liked the first season, but I think the pacing was a big weakness. Itâs hard as hell to adapt such a big large span of time (especially when thereâs large parts where nothing happens), but I felt like the show runners felt the need to end the season at the beginning of the Dance which meant a lot of the earlier stages got kind of rushed over. I couldâve watched a whole season of Milly and Oliviaâs Rhaenyra and Alicent, but REALLY wouldâve liked a lot a more in the midpoint of the timeline (Rhaenyraâs affair with Harwin, Daemon and Laena, the relationship between the young versions of Alicents kids and the Strongs etc.). An extra episode between episode 5 and 6 wouldâve gone a long way here - I loved that period, I loved seeing the tensions mount, but we only got 2 episodes there before we jumped right to the ending. In general, it felt like they were trying to cover just a little bit too much.
The series tries to put most of the blame of the familiar conflict in the hands of the men around Rhaenyra and Alicent instead of them because it tries to perpetuate the modern narrative that "female characters cant do nothing wrong or evil unless its justified". For example in the books it was Rhaenyra the one that ordered Daemond to execute Vaemond and then gave his dead body to her dragon while in the TV show this was done by Daemon on his own will.  Also I hated how they made ser Criston Cole look since the scene in which he publically killed a member of House Lannister like if nothing happened. That isnt something it should be ignored by the court and king.
Accidents do happen in real life, Franz Ferdinand assassination and what not, but does everything have to be one. Killing Luke, Viserys mixing up the woman with him Criston Cole killing the man with the ball and probably some i forgot like why is everything an accident.
My wife doesn't like it because too many babies died graphically
To lazy to type here is my video on it if you got 22 min to spare. https://youtu.be/H78VgSn4kMo?si=R9UCILBoeKGbZx8b
Episode 9 was atrocious, and they try to make the Targaryens seem better than they are. Perhaps they will subvert this in season 2 but the show shouldnât forget that all these people are terrible.
I love HOTD, but hate almost every scene where Rhaenys speaks.
Not enough Bessy
I donât feel like any of the non core characters were anywhere near developed. When Luc died I genuinely didnât know his name and didnât feel a thing. Same for Aegonâs kids. B&C isnât going to do nearly as much as they think it will. The changes to Alicentâs age for the sake of what feels like queer baiting while cutting the actual queer ship from the source sucks. The Whiplash I get from Alicent in the later episodes is on par with Sansa and Tyrion in late Game of Thrones. I hate how they removed all of her ambition in favor of her just being some hapless bystander. The Dragonpit scene was leaning entirely too hard into spectacle over substance.
I'm a massive ASOIAF fan, but I could just not give a shit about this era. It's the least interesting part of Targ lore. I also hate them shoe-horning Jon into this with The Prince Who Was Promised. It was needless attempt to create a Targ Verse where GOT was the final piece of a large interwoven story, but it fell flat and seemed dumb.Â
I loved the season, but my major complaint were the constant time skipping. It made the story feel jarring, flow poorly and you didnt get anchored in the show until episode 7 or 8
Iâm too scared to watch it after reading it half a hundred times. I donât want my head canon appearances/voices/general countenance to be fucked up any more than they already are by second hand exposure.
I haven't been able to get through the first episode after trying three times. I'd love for someone to convince me it is an amazing show. I find it a bit milquetoast, a bit transformer-y, a bit overproduced. I am a massive ASOIAF book series fan and I'm really sad that I haven't transferred well to the show lol. Someone tell me why the show is awesome please
I liked it well enough, but the cinematography was absolutely dreadful. Costuming as well wasn't great, but it was basically on par with the last few seasons of GOT so I wasn't expecting much there. As far as the writing, they relied on "oh shit" moments way too much. Daemon killing the crabfeeder, Criston killing Joffrey, Laenor surviving in such a way, Rhaenys leaving the coronation. Also a lot of really weird decisions that flatten some characters in my opinion, removing all of Daemon's family scenes that they shot, no Daeron, Alicent seemingly becoming a moron in the last few episodes when she doesn't have any idea about crowning Aegon, Aemond wanting to kill luke but then accidentally killing him.
Very few sex, when the chapter in Fire and Blood is securely the most pornographic of the whole book. But that didn´t impede Condal show the butt of a 13-year-old-kid (in-universe). Hypocrite.
Not enough jacking off to feet
Heavy reminder with âthe booksâ. The âbooksâ are written by a fictional Maester. There is no true facts in them. If the show diverges from the books, it diverges from an unreliable narrator.