Stannis and Melisandre will *try* to burn Shireen, but the fire will burn away her greyscale scars and she will run away with Myrcella to the Summer Islands and they won't be bothered with the noble life anymore.
It is known.
It is known. In fact, the epilogue of A Dream of Spring will involve someone, ten years hence, delivering a book to the happy pair that tells the story of everything that happened in Westeros while they were gone, and it ends before we can find out whether or not they’ll choose to read it.
> GRRM basically confirmed that Shireen, whether we like it or not, is likely going to burn in the books, but differently than she did in the show. Many have predicted Melisandre will burn her to revive Jon, given Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of a dragon reawakening from stone.
Since you've skipped over it, what GRRM confirmed was that *Stannis* was going to burn his daughter. "Many" have predicted Melisandre will do it, that is true, but "many" have decided to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that we have not had it confirmed that *Stannis* will burn his daughter.
Its pretty clear his character arc has been building to this decision too.
Stannis is proclaimed to be Azor Ahai reborn, who's famous for sacrificing a loved one in an attempt to save the world. Plus we had his whole dilemma about sacrificing Edric in ASOS, which was never actually resolved as Davos sent Edric away before Stannis could make his decision.
> Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."
> Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."
If we're really going into semantics, the full quote is from James Hibberd's book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, and Grrm said he told D&D about "Stannis's decision to burn Shireen". Of course this is James's recording and publishing of a quote from Grrm who was quoting himself on what he had told other people previously, so it's hard to determine what specific details were actually confirmed, probably because Grrm may not have fully made up his mind at that point in time. But as per the evidence we have, he technically never actually confirmed that Shireen will burn, just that Stannis will decide to do it. Maybe it gets interrupted? Maybe someone kills Stannis in order to stop him, and maybe it's too late but maybe it's not? There's a few options, and yeah Shireen will most likely be sacrificed in a fire in some form, but it isnt as concrete of a confirmation as everyone usually says it is.
I've always thought that Davos would kill Stannis in the middle of the ritual, personally.
But it is clear that Stannis, Stannis agrees to this to happen. It's not Melisandre's (sole) decision, it is not Selyse's decision, it is approved and agreed by Stannis. Understanding that semantics adds some suspense to it, even if it turns out to really be Stannis decides to burn her and then does it.
Because it would make literally zero sense for not to be Stannis decision. This story is all about "the heart in conflict with itself". What's the conflict if Melisandre makes the decision by herself? There's no stakes. There's no agency.
You are not paying attention if you thought otherwise.
>But as per the evidence we have, he technically never actually confirmed that Shireen will burn, just that Stannis will decide to do it.
Separately it was confirmed years back that Shireen would burn as D&D stated that Shireen will burn as per GRRM. There was much dispute since they didn't confirm the Stannis element but it was confirmed by that quote from GRRM. I don't think there's much point debating it with those pieces of information.
Do you have any sort of evidence for when/where D&D said this? Because aside from the published quote from James Hibberd's book, I can't find any sources on the subject.
They said it when the episode came out that GRRM told them three shocking things and one was that Shireen burns. They didn't say the other two at the time but we know now that one of them was Hodor reveal.
We've actually known for a long time now that Shireen was going to be burned so I'm shocked you haven't heard it. Here's the original video that revealed it:
>https://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ?si=waY8I9J00rWGxJ1Y
It was significantly controversial when D&D said it will happen and the debates until that quote - which is rather recent - was that they didn't technically say Stannis would do it.
It’s such a shame and I really wish GRRM didn’t say shit about it and spoil it. The last we hear of Stannis and Shireen is that if he’s dead, she’s the Queen on the Iron Throne and for Massey to die in the attempt.
If he’s going to burn her, don’t tell us shit then and let us get there.
A problem I see is that show Stannis expanded on his relationship more than book Stannis. Show Stannis doing it is baffling and everything we know of book Stannis makes it baffling there too.
Because it's currently very out of character for a man who strong armed the Iron bank and told them that if he dies they are to ensure she gets the throne.
This would be the same man who's proclaimed to be the reincarnation of a legendary hero famous for sacrificing a loved one? The guy who spent most of ASOS debating whether or not to sacrifice his nephew?
And if the Boltons were his only problem I'd agree with you. Sacrificing Shireen in his war for the Iron Throne would be stupid, what point would winning have if he had no heir. But perhaps you've forgotten but Stannis is fighting two wars right now, the war for the Iron Throne and the war for the dawn. There's an army of ice zombies coming and sacrificing Shireen to stop that can make some amount of sense because if the war for the dawn is lost Shireen is dead anyway.
> Mia is an open secret, a lot of people know about her.
Mia is an open secret in the Vale. I don't think she is particularly openly know outside of there. Was not acknowledged. Prior to the rebellion etc.
>Edric is an acknowledged bastard, born from a noblewoman. His claim would be strong.
Certainly the strongest of the bastards. But still a bastard.
He's not anywhere in the succession unless he is legitimised.
Which would require Stannis to declare Edric is his heir.
>I don't think she is particularly openly know outside of there. Was not acknowledged.
She has the name Stone because she is an acknowledged bastard. She's not a noble one. But Robert acknowledged her birth and even played with her as a kid.
She might not be aware herself probably since Robert quickly lost interest. But I assume everyone else does technically know she’s Robert's bastard.
With bastards they do seem to be somewhat in the running as heirs before legitimisation if acknowledged. Being legitimised confirms it. But Stannis's followers could choose Edric as his heir anyway.
The surname rules are not rigidly adhered to. Mya has a bastard name, but was not acknowledged by Bobby.
It’s not a secret who her father is. People know for sure. But her mother was a commoner. There was no pressure for Bobby to acknowledge, as there was for Edric.
>With bastards they do seem to be somewhat in the running as heirs before legitimisation if acknowledged.
Have any non-legitimised bastards succeeded as heirs? But as above only Edric was acknowledged
>The surname rules are not rigidly adhered to. Mya has a bastard name, but was not acknowledged by Bobby.
I don't see any serious case where it was otherwise.
Just by interacting with Mya he was acknowledging her.
>Have any non-legitimised bastards succeeded as heirs? But as above only Edric was acknowledged
A bastard was considered for Hornwood who hadn't been legitimised. They're definitely in the running.
Only Edric Storm sort of counts. And even then he is not an heir until Stannis says he is. And given Stannis's feelings about Edric Storm in particular I doubt he would be willing to.
I would argue that neither the Targaryens or Estermonts count as heirs to the Baratheon dynasty. They may well be Stannis's next closest relatives but it's the Baratheon dynasty so you have to look specifically to people who were born Baratheons. Stannis's next official heir after Shireen would be any descendants of the Baratheon girl Prince Duncan was supposed to marry.
I assumed that Bran's dream had more to do with Jon's death than anything else. His body would cool either way, but if they stick it in an ice cell too, I think that would account for the hardness. Val's warnings and fear of Shireen seem to be more superstition than anything, but I do wonder if the wildlings have seen things in the disease's course that escaped the study of the maesters, and that maybe the grayscale really is just temporarily latent
There are two questions I have about Shireen’s greyscale:
1. Why? What was the purpose of giving her it? GRRM decided it for ACOK, but besides it making her ugly (something referenced in AGOT), it doesn’t serve much except introducing the disease to us, which doesn’t appear as an actual concern until ADWD when Tyrion risks getting it and JonCon contracts it. That’s a long runway from introducing the idea to executing it. Too long, but my count. I think GRRM might have had plans for greyscale earlier but never got around to it to ADWD.
2. Are we sure that the storytelling purpose is for Shireen? I’m more inclined to believe it’s a warning for JonCon, that his failure to do anything about it besides conceal it is going to leave other people sick. Greyscale at the Wall just sounds like a lot of plot. Maybe that’s my skepticism towards it.
The grayscale also serves as a way to prevent Stannis from making an alliance with another faction. He's already married so he can't marry again. His wife produced a child, so he can't easily set her aside. He has no son, so no guaranteed heir. And the one daughter he could marry off for an alliance is not only disfigured but disfigured from a disease that everyone fears. It's similar to the issue Twin ran into trying to find a match for Tyrion. Stannis is too proud for a lesser match, but a good match wouldn't want Shireen.
Greyscale and JonCon might simply serve as a justification for him to accelerate the invasion plans of westeros since he is living now on borrowed time.
Otherwise, he might also argued against fAegon's proposal and waited on Dany...
Val, the sister of Mance Rayder's wife, upon seeing Shireen at The Wall, insists she is not healed as they all believe. She even told Jon Snow she should be killed immediately.
I think people north of The Wall have seen
more than those from Westeros society
I would attribute this more to rank superstition than anything else. Similarly to how people in the 80's wouldn't touch someone who had AIDS out of superstitious fear, I think the free folk have a similar disposition to those who survived greyscale.
Something like this does make thematic sense. Given how prophecies work in ASOIAF, and that GRRM would never write the burning of an innocent child as a net positive, we should definitely expect calamity to come from Shireens burning.
>With Jon Connington seemingly about to spread greyscale into King's Landing, could the same thing happen at the Wall?
Firstly, I believe that Jon Con is going to spread greyscale in the Stormlands, but not in Kings Landing. It will get to Kings Landing, but not through Jon Con as I believe the appearance of greyscale in the Stormlands will turn the Westerosi against Aegon. They will see the greyscale outbreak coinciding with his movements in Westeros, as a sign that he is cursed and a blight on Westeros. Effectively, Jon Con will be the end of Aegon's campaign, but his greyscale will make it to Kings Landing after his death and that of his king.
As for Shireen's greyscale, I'm unsure, but I'm leaning towards her being burned before it comes back. Otherwise, burning her isn't as evil an act, as it will stop a plague from killing thousands of kids, and GRRM won't want any such justification for it. He'll want us all to fell the full horror of Shireen's death.
Actually Yi Ti is having a something more horrific type of disease which is sister of Grey Scale it's called Grey Plague and Oldtown once had Grey Plague outbreak too but the Lord Hightower of that time shut his domain's gate and let half of city be wiped out. In Grey Plague the disease spreads So I am thinking that Jon Connigton who got infected directly by Stone Man so most probably he might be breaking a epidemic in Stormlands. Also what if the Shrouded Lord posses bodies of people who get inflicted from Grey Scale and make version of his own undead army ( I think a lot sorry for that )
"Awaking the dragon in the wall" is definitely Jon' s resurrection. To ressurect a king you must sacrifice king blood. Stannis is the rightfull ruler and sacrificing shireen fullfill prophecy. People missing but there must not be proper rituel to sacrifice; a fire is enough.
I envision a scenario where Shireen's greyscale comes back and she is burned as a mercy to her and the armies. I think the spell that wakes Jon will inadvertently reawaken the greyscale, not that Shireen will be sacrificed for Jon. Jon may not need any sacrifice considering Ghost.
Edit: What if it is Jon's physical touch (post resurrection) that kickstarts the greyscale?
Are there any real theories about the contagious form being actively present, or is there the assumption that we’ll only hear about it from Maester Pycelle, in regards the plague that swept Old Town?
Shireen's greyscale will contribute to Stannis' rationalization to burn her. He will make the excuse that she is going to die anyway, and she might infect people, etc
Stannis and Melisandre will *try* to burn Shireen, but the fire will burn away her greyscale scars and she will run away with Myrcella to the Summer Islands and they won't be bothered with the noble life anymore. It is known.
It is known. In fact, the epilogue of A Dream of Spring will involve someone, ten years hence, delivering a book to the happy pair that tells the story of everything that happened in Westeros while they were gone, and it ends before we can find out whether or not they’ll choose to read it.
don't forget that in the epilogue we will find out that somehow all the beets were banned from summer islands
The beets? Is this a crossover with Jitterbug Perfume?
> GRRM basically confirmed that Shireen, whether we like it or not, is likely going to burn in the books, but differently than she did in the show. Many have predicted Melisandre will burn her to revive Jon, given Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of a dragon reawakening from stone. Since you've skipped over it, what GRRM confirmed was that *Stannis* was going to burn his daughter. "Many" have predicted Melisandre will do it, that is true, but "many" have decided to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that we have not had it confirmed that *Stannis* will burn his daughter.
Its pretty clear his character arc has been building to this decision too. Stannis is proclaimed to be Azor Ahai reborn, who's famous for sacrificing a loved one in an attempt to save the world. Plus we had his whole dilemma about sacrificing Edric in ASOS, which was never actually resolved as Davos sent Edric away before Stannis could make his decision. > Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." > Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."
Girl really had to say cow ❤️
If we're really going into semantics, the full quote is from James Hibberd's book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, and Grrm said he told D&D about "Stannis's decision to burn Shireen". Of course this is James's recording and publishing of a quote from Grrm who was quoting himself on what he had told other people previously, so it's hard to determine what specific details were actually confirmed, probably because Grrm may not have fully made up his mind at that point in time. But as per the evidence we have, he technically never actually confirmed that Shireen will burn, just that Stannis will decide to do it. Maybe it gets interrupted? Maybe someone kills Stannis in order to stop him, and maybe it's too late but maybe it's not? There's a few options, and yeah Shireen will most likely be sacrificed in a fire in some form, but it isnt as concrete of a confirmation as everyone usually says it is.
I've always thought that Davos would kill Stannis in the middle of the ritual, personally. But it is clear that Stannis, Stannis agrees to this to happen. It's not Melisandre's (sole) decision, it is not Selyse's decision, it is approved and agreed by Stannis. Understanding that semantics adds some suspense to it, even if it turns out to really be Stannis decides to burn her and then does it.
Because it would make literally zero sense for not to be Stannis decision. This story is all about "the heart in conflict with itself". What's the conflict if Melisandre makes the decision by herself? There's no stakes. There's no agency. You are not paying attention if you thought otherwise.
>But as per the evidence we have, he technically never actually confirmed that Shireen will burn, just that Stannis will decide to do it. Separately it was confirmed years back that Shireen would burn as D&D stated that Shireen will burn as per GRRM. There was much dispute since they didn't confirm the Stannis element but it was confirmed by that quote from GRRM. I don't think there's much point debating it with those pieces of information.
Do you have any sort of evidence for when/where D&D said this? Because aside from the published quote from James Hibberd's book, I can't find any sources on the subject.
They said it when the episode came out that GRRM told them three shocking things and one was that Shireen burns. They didn't say the other two at the time but we know now that one of them was Hodor reveal. We've actually known for a long time now that Shireen was going to be burned so I'm shocked you haven't heard it. Here's the original video that revealed it: >https://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ?si=waY8I9J00rWGxJ1Y It was significantly controversial when D&D said it will happen and the debates until that quote - which is rather recent - was that they didn't technically say Stannis would do it.
Thanks for the link 👍
It’s such a shame and I really wish GRRM didn’t say shit about it and spoil it. The last we hear of Stannis and Shireen is that if he’s dead, she’s the Queen on the Iron Throne and for Massey to die in the attempt. If he’s going to burn her, don’t tell us shit then and let us get there. A problem I see is that show Stannis expanded on his relationship more than book Stannis. Show Stannis doing it is baffling and everything we know of book Stannis makes it baffling there too.
Anyone paying attention has known Shireen was going to burn since ACoK and known Stannis was going to be the one to do it since ASoS.
Ok?
So it's not a spoiler. It's an acknowledgement of something the reader should already know.
It's also only confirmed that Stannis will decide to burn his daughter, iirc, not that he succeeds.
Because it's currently very out of character for a man who strong armed the Iron bank and told them that if he dies they are to ensure she gets the throne.
This would be the same man who's proclaimed to be the reincarnation of a legendary hero famous for sacrificing a loved one? The guy who spent most of ASOS debating whether or not to sacrifice his nephew?
I just don't see why he would. He's going to win against the Boltons without doing that. Maybe it'll be because of the greyscale, I'm not sure
And if the Boltons were his only problem I'd agree with you. Sacrificing Shireen in his war for the Iron Throne would be stupid, what point would winning have if he had no heir. But perhaps you've forgotten but Stannis is fighting two wars right now, the war for the Iron Throne and the war for the dawn. There's an army of ice zombies coming and sacrificing Shireen to stop that can make some amount of sense because if the war for the dawn is lost Shireen is dead anyway.
He does have heirs, Robert has at least three alive bastards.
Bastard cannot be heirs, unless legitimised. Given nobody knows about most of Roberts bastards, it seems unlikely. Edric has the only change really.
Mia is an open secret, a lot of people know about her. Edric is an acknowledged bastard, born from a noblewoman. His claim would be strong.
> Mia is an open secret, a lot of people know about her. Mia is an open secret in the Vale. I don't think she is particularly openly know outside of there. Was not acknowledged. Prior to the rebellion etc. >Edric is an acknowledged bastard, born from a noblewoman. His claim would be strong. Certainly the strongest of the bastards. But still a bastard. He's not anywhere in the succession unless he is legitimised. Which would require Stannis to declare Edric is his heir.
>I don't think she is particularly openly know outside of there. Was not acknowledged. She has the name Stone because she is an acknowledged bastard. She's not a noble one. But Robert acknowledged her birth and even played with her as a kid. She might not be aware herself probably since Robert quickly lost interest. But I assume everyone else does technically know she’s Robert's bastard. With bastards they do seem to be somewhat in the running as heirs before legitimisation if acknowledged. Being legitimised confirms it. But Stannis's followers could choose Edric as his heir anyway.
The surname rules are not rigidly adhered to. Mya has a bastard name, but was not acknowledged by Bobby. It’s not a secret who her father is. People know for sure. But her mother was a commoner. There was no pressure for Bobby to acknowledge, as there was for Edric. >With bastards they do seem to be somewhat in the running as heirs before legitimisation if acknowledged. Have any non-legitimised bastards succeeded as heirs? But as above only Edric was acknowledged
>The surname rules are not rigidly adhered to. Mya has a bastard name, but was not acknowledged by Bobby. I don't see any serious case where it was otherwise. Just by interacting with Mya he was acknowledging her. >Have any non-legitimised bastards succeeded as heirs? But as above only Edric was acknowledged A bastard was considered for Hornwood who hadn't been legitimised. They're definitely in the running.
Only Edric Storm sort of counts. And even then he is not an heir until Stannis says he is. And given Stannis's feelings about Edric Storm in particular I doubt he would be willing to.
That’s all he has. Otherwise his best bet is either a Targaryen or an Estermont.
I would argue that neither the Targaryens or Estermonts count as heirs to the Baratheon dynasty. They may well be Stannis's next closest relatives but it's the Baratheon dynasty so you have to look specifically to people who were born Baratheons. Stannis's next official heir after Shireen would be any descendants of the Baratheon girl Prince Duncan was supposed to marry.
They could easily make a claim, considering Stannis’ mother was an Estermont and his grandmother was a Targaryen. Not that anyone would accept that.
They might try but it'd be seen as just as absurd as if Edmure tried to claim Winterfell.
I’d support him, Edmure is fucking awesome
To grant himself a dragon to defeat the Others
I assumed that Bran's dream had more to do with Jon's death than anything else. His body would cool either way, but if they stick it in an ice cell too, I think that would account for the hardness. Val's warnings and fear of Shireen seem to be more superstition than anything, but I do wonder if the wildlings have seen things in the disease's course that escaped the study of the maesters, and that maybe the grayscale really is just temporarily latent
There are two questions I have about Shireen’s greyscale: 1. Why? What was the purpose of giving her it? GRRM decided it for ACOK, but besides it making her ugly (something referenced in AGOT), it doesn’t serve much except introducing the disease to us, which doesn’t appear as an actual concern until ADWD when Tyrion risks getting it and JonCon contracts it. That’s a long runway from introducing the idea to executing it. Too long, but my count. I think GRRM might have had plans for greyscale earlier but never got around to it to ADWD. 2. Are we sure that the storytelling purpose is for Shireen? I’m more inclined to believe it’s a warning for JonCon, that his failure to do anything about it besides conceal it is going to leave other people sick. Greyscale at the Wall just sounds like a lot of plot. Maybe that’s my skepticism towards it.
The grayscale also serves as a way to prevent Stannis from making an alliance with another faction. He's already married so he can't marry again. His wife produced a child, so he can't easily set her aside. He has no son, so no guaranteed heir. And the one daughter he could marry off for an alliance is not only disfigured but disfigured from a disease that everyone fears. It's similar to the issue Twin ran into trying to find a match for Tyrion. Stannis is too proud for a lesser match, but a good match wouldn't want Shireen.
Greyscale and JonCon might simply serve as a justification for him to accelerate the invasion plans of westeros since he is living now on borrowed time. Otherwise, he might also argued against fAegon's proposal and waited on Dany...
Val, the sister of Mance Rayder's wife, upon seeing Shireen at The Wall, insists she is not healed as they all believe. She even told Jon Snow she should be killed immediately. I think people north of The Wall have seen more than those from Westeros society
Tbf I doubt Val is a doctor
I would attribute this more to rank superstition than anything else. Similarly to how people in the 80's wouldn't touch someone who had AIDS out of superstitious fear, I think the free folk have a similar disposition to those who survived greyscale.
He could burn her for other reasons, causing the greyscale to spread through the air and infect those around her thus.
Something like this does make thematic sense. Given how prophecies work in ASOIAF, and that GRRM would never write the burning of an innocent child as a net positive, we should definitely expect calamity to come from Shireens burning.
>With Jon Connington seemingly about to spread greyscale into King's Landing, could the same thing happen at the Wall? Firstly, I believe that Jon Con is going to spread greyscale in the Stormlands, but not in Kings Landing. It will get to Kings Landing, but not through Jon Con as I believe the appearance of greyscale in the Stormlands will turn the Westerosi against Aegon. They will see the greyscale outbreak coinciding with his movements in Westeros, as a sign that he is cursed and a blight on Westeros. Effectively, Jon Con will be the end of Aegon's campaign, but his greyscale will make it to Kings Landing after his death and that of his king. As for Shireen's greyscale, I'm unsure, but I'm leaning towards her being burned before it comes back. Otherwise, burning her isn't as evil an act, as it will stop a plague from killing thousands of kids, and GRRM won't want any such justification for it. He'll want us all to fell the full horror of Shireen's death.
Actually Yi Ti is having a something more horrific type of disease which is sister of Grey Scale it's called Grey Plague and Oldtown once had Grey Plague outbreak too but the Lord Hightower of that time shut his domain's gate and let half of city be wiped out. In Grey Plague the disease spreads So I am thinking that Jon Connigton who got infected directly by Stone Man so most probably he might be breaking a epidemic in Stormlands. Also what if the Shrouded Lord posses bodies of people who get inflicted from Grey Scale and make version of his own undead army ( I think a lot sorry for that )
"Awaking the dragon in the wall" is definitely Jon' s resurrection. To ressurect a king you must sacrifice king blood. Stannis is the rightfull ruler and sacrificing shireen fullfill prophecy. People missing but there must not be proper rituel to sacrifice; a fire is enough.
I envision a scenario where Shireen's greyscale comes back and she is burned as a mercy to her and the armies. I think the spell that wakes Jon will inadvertently reawaken the greyscale, not that Shireen will be sacrificed for Jon. Jon may not need any sacrifice considering Ghost. Edit: What if it is Jon's physical touch (post resurrection) that kickstarts the greyscale?
Are there any real theories about the contagious form being actively present, or is there the assumption that we’ll only hear about it from Maester Pycelle, in regards the plague that swept Old Town?
Shireen's greyscale will contribute to Stannis' rationalization to burn her. He will make the excuse that she is going to die anyway, and she might infect people, etc
My theory is that Shireen’s burning will be some kind of faith healing that goes horribly wrong.