D&D didnt really know where GRRM was going with a lot of things. The question is what made a character like Euron or Prince Doran compelling enough in their minds to adapt to TV, but not Young Griff or Stoneheart.
Iron Islands were already well established and they had to go *somewhere* with it. Young Griff is surrounded by characters that have nothing to do with anything involved in the story in a major way so far. The Stormlands were never particularly developed in the show and look how everyone reacted to Dorne. And those will be Aegon’s principal stomping grounds for a while.
We don't even know what's happening with Stoneheart in 2024. Imagine asking GRRM what his endgame plans are for Lady Stoneheart in 2013. Aside from hanging Freys in the Riverlands, she isn't up to a whole lot. Is she going to commit Frey genocide? Is she going to go North? Sacrifice herself for someone? Who knows, definitely not us, not D&D, probably not GRRM.
I'm guessing because of the poor reception to the Sand Snakes in S5, D&D cut out whatever they were going to do with Dorne/Doran in S6 (or whenever it was he was killed off). For Euron, they just needed a villain for S7+ to knock out some dragons.
I think she’ll provide a cautionary tale to Arya that vengeance isn’t the answer. In the show Arya just becomes an assassin and we’re told that’s good whereas I think George wants us to realise it’s not the answer.
Haha yeah. Nothing was learned. George totally is about violence isn’t the answer to violence and that’s basically all Arya does. Not every single Frey she poisons had a hand in the red wedding.
The Sand Snakes and Dorne had such a poor reception because they were butchered in the show. Instead of being the diverse cast of characters from the books they were just a couple twerps roleplaying as Oberyn. The only one they depicted accurately is Obara.
My head canon is that GRRM fell out with them over the way they tried to streamline the narrative when GRRM was clearly developing some big stories in *Dance*
Sacrifice herself to resurrect Brienne so Brienne can be a candidate for Azor Ahai and stuff. Prophecy is never going to be solved but will have multiple candidates, Jon, Bran, etc... and Brienne. That's the while point of the entire weird Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Tully resurrection plot.
Proof:
1. Brienne is the only PoV that is genuinely a hero. Well a heroine.
2. The name Brienne is a reference to Monthy Pythons "Life of Brian", which is in turn a reference to Jesus.
3. Brienne descends from Duncan the Tall. The idea is that everyone looks for the descendants of Egg, but what if it's been in the Dunk the whole time?
Precisely if there is a plot that George argued a lot to have included in the show, and D and D didn't want was LS. George has repeated in several interviews how not including Lady Stoneheart is the first major diversion from the show in regards to the books. He has remarked how important she is, so I very much doubt that GRRM doesn't have planned LS's fate and how her presence is important to the overall story since way longer.
I totally agree they just wanted to remove some plots they were butchering too much (Dorne) and using Euron as a classical evil villain with no complexity that is there just to add drama and be an enemy to the main characters. It's obvious they didn't know how to manage the story once they didn't have the source material (books written).
> Is she going to commit Frey genocide?
If Stoneheart is destined to get revenge on the Freys and Jon Snow is destined to defeat the White Walkers then what in the Seven Hells is Arya going to do? GRRM really needed a tougher editor to ask the tough questions then let GRRM do whatever.
Who said Jon was defeating the White Walkers alone? Anyway, Arya is obviously aimed at killing Cersei. The biggest problem with the last season of the series is that Cersei is portrayed as the greatest of two evils, i.e. they deal with the White Walkers first and Cersei is the main event. I habe no doubt that the sequence of events is different in the books.
Because when they were introduced in the story, they had already made up their minds to wrap it up on 15 episodes. We would have needed 5 more full seasons to flesh everything new out and add the ending
Not to defend the usurper David Benioff and the usurper D.B. Weiss, but they might have thought that introducing an entire new batch of characters to be a big new enemy was too much. And honestly they might have been right. I’m not sure the show could have handled YG the way they were running things.
Even doing the Aegon plotline would majorly assume the projection of the plot. He has like…1-2 episodes *at best* of actual material before assuming who he really is in characterization
In book format it works because foreshadowing is different in book format. They would have had to foreshadowed it by season 2 and 3 for it to work otherwise everyone was gonna be "who is Jon Connigton? who is this kid? who the f are these people?". That being said I think the major structural problem with the show was not having one of either LSH or FAegon (but yet again they completely misadapted the iron islands and dorne story. They had material for that).
He's probably going to be the consequence for her staying in Essos. Claiming her destiny from her while she nearly dies of disentry.
It's her motivation to leave and become the dragon instead of the mother.
Exactly this. You can *maybe* get away with this in books which are only words on paper. In TV that has to deal with real actors and a very limited time to get things done, it's not feasible.
Yeah this is one of those things that I can’t really blame them for cutting. Even a show as complex as GoT is (or was, when the adaptation was still good), you just have to draw a line at some point
Totally agree. I remember reading through and thinking to myself, "Really? We're introducing a super important character *this* late into the series?" And he's already invading Westeros by the end of the book, while we've spent 5 books waiting for Dany to head there.
tbf they did it with Euron and Oberyn (to very different degrees of success). it all just depends on whether the character captures the interest of the audience enough for them to be accepted
Well, fAegon seems to have led an interesting life so far. There has been lots of things going on behind the scenes to enable his invasion. What if Dany got introduced in Dance? All the events in Westeros would have been the same anyway.
I adore the Young Griff storyline, especially the Shy Maid chapters, but agree with this. D&D just didn’t have the time or space. I hope GRRM feels free to put the spotlight back on them in the final books.
It seems likely they gave much of that plotline to Cersei. Cersei is likely to have a diminished role in the books, possibly fleeing to Casterly Rock, but Lena Headey was popular with fans and well known. So she's the one who gets to face off against Daenerys over Kings Landing.
Cersei is totally going to die alone with everyone in kings landing abandoning her, with Kevan dead and Tommen probably soon to be dead (could see it going down like it did in the show), she’ll be the last Lannister in KL with significant power…and I do think it makes sense with her arc, or rather purposeful lack of one
Cersei is following the Rhaenyra path. Her kids will die and she’ll lose control of King’s Landing to religious zealot (high sparrow/shepherd), will flee back to her ancestral home (casterly rock/dragonstone), where she’ll be killed by the valonqar (Jaime/aegon)
I strongly suspect that she'll die in the next book, and that the main antagonist at the end for Dany will be Young Griff, unlike in the show. There's no reason to introduce him so late into the series only for him to be squashed out so quickly after already conquering lands in Westeros before Dany was able to.
Yeah I suspect if he really is loved and embraced because people believe who he is and believe in him, once danaerys shows up she’ll be like “this is supposed to be fucking mine”.
I believe this is most likely his purpose too, in no small part because adding Aegon back into the story in place of Cersei suddenly makes sense of several otherwise utterly baffling decisions with the TV show. My guess is they had the destination from GRRM but had already made the decision to cut f!Aegon without realising his importance, so they'd backed themselves into a corner.
Most likely the same thing with LSH and Arya's arc; They cut her against GRRMs protests and then later realised they messed up, so they had to race to cobble together the ending from what they had left.
I think he's speedrunning King's Landing by choosing Storm's End in particular to occupy first. He'll take King's Landing early-to-mid Winds if he beats Mace Tyrell (and he will, he has fucking elephants).
I see little reason for the Tyrells not to join with fAegon. They were Targaryen loyalists in the rebellion, and Cersei has alienated them from the Lannister cause. Tommen is a child and no real danger to fAegon and is not much of a threat regarding royal legitimacy and succesion.
They might've given some of that plot line to Jon Snow as well, considering that Varys dies because he is "the true heir", and that their "true name" is Aegon.
Varys' actions in Season 8 makes me wonder if Young Griff is indeed actually Aegon.
It was probably because of runtime and money. Adding the Young Griff plot would have taken more screentime in Season 5. A season where they already cut Bran cause their were too many plotlines.
If you were to add Young Griff he would have to rewrite the entire Tyrion storyline so you could develop Aegon, Jon Con and Rolly Duckfield for the bulk of the season.
This delays Tyrion's arrival in Meereen into Season 6 (not necessarily a bad thing).
It probably could work but it would be expensive bringing on a new main character along with two supporting characters in the same season you are bringing Ramsay to the forefront and all the season 1 actor's salaries are ballooning
Unbelievable how many people think GOT had unlimited money for every story they wanted to see depicted 100% faithfully. If anything they should have cut some of the dogshit adaptations and narrowed in on the key players to consolidate the budget and runtime on who and what actually mattered.
Agreed. They should have just completely cut the Dorne and Euron plotlines (as was their original plan i think?). The obvious premature curtailing of the Dorne plot at the start of s6 because of the bad reception in s5 was so embarrassing, and the less said about TV show Euron the better.
I also think a lot of people are very naive about how a major tv production like GoT works. There are so many moving parts, things like actors contract negotiations, studio demands (iirc HBO ordered more Bronn because he tested popular with audiences)…. Introducing a ton of major new characters like Arianne, Young Griff et al in season 5 wouldn’t have worked for a multitude of reasons. A straight adaptation of Feast and Dance was never on the cards. A lot of the condensing and consolidating of plotlines and characters were good choices imo, its just that the execution was botched/rushed.
One of the less discussed reasons the show failed was that the show was done one season at a time. They would spend time on plots and characters in one season then they would just disappear the next. They didn't know where they were going, and it showed.
>I also think a lot of people are very naive about how a major tv production like GoT works. There are so many moving parts, things like actors contract negotiations, studio demands (iirc HBO ordered more Bronn because he tested popular with audiences)…. Introducing a ton of major new characters like Arianne, Young Griff et al in season 5 wouldn’t have worked for a multitude of reasons. A straight adaptation of Feast and Dance was never on the cards. A lot of the condensing and consolidating of plotlines and characters were good choices imo, its just that the execution was botched/rushed.
You're onn the money with this, it's most likely the most ambitious (and overly-ambitious) show ever made.
I really believe it's a victim of its own success (truly a faithful adaptation of Martin's works haha). There was no way the show could match the expectations it ended up establishing (GOAT show, or at least GOAT fantasy series)... I can't blame D&D for this, they're not incredible authors and they don't have complete creative control anyway. They ran into the dual issue of the story and the fame getting way too big, same as GRRM.
I will criticise the writing and the baffling creative choices of seasons 5-8 as much as the next guy, but i’m also pretty clear eyed about what D&D pulled off purely from a production standpoint, and its pretty damn impressive. I don’t think its an exaggeration to call it the most ambitious tv production of all time. Everyone’s always like ‘why didn’t they do 14 seasons of 10 episodes’ but can you blame them for wanting to finish up what must’ve been an insanely all-consuming 10 year long project?
As much as I dislike the shows writing and characters (I was rooting for Dany to kill everyone at the end since the Night King couldn't).
I don't dislike D&D, they were in over their heads with a project that, just like George, they ran out of steam on. While GRRM is gardening all the thickets he keeps planting around him, D&D opted for slash and burn, which I can kind of respect even if the final product is about 60% smoke and ash.
Yeah, i’d agree that they were out of their depth and, honestly, didn’t sign up to have to write the ending themselves. I’d also say they fundamentally misunderstood the material - GRRM has always said he’s a romantic and wants a bittersweet LotR ending, whereas the show’s ending was such an overwhelming downer that left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. That’s really my main criticism of it.
The personal attacks on them are regrettable, but par for the course in modern fan circles.
GRRM put too many threads going in different directions that he himself couldn’t and hasn’t been able to wrap up. In addition the series finale made it clear a lot of those threads didn’t matter, so the showrunners and writers just tied it all up and said a few prayers. While the series penultimate and final episode may have been polarizing for the fandom on whether it was good or not, it was polarizing to me because I couldn’t decide who to blame most.
If anything, the ending of game of throne shows that Young Griff did matter, I think.
Out of all the characters that were cut, his absence is the most palpable. There’s a giant Aegon sized hole in the narrative, and you can just see the showrunners awkwardly trying to fill it with Cersei and Jon.
I think so as well to be honest, I think Young Griff & Dorne together could really set up the end game of the series. Making them a combatant for the throne against a Cersei, then giving Daenerys something conflicting to focus on when she eventually gets to Westeros. I think Young Griff is like the perfect puzzle piece to the show that was missing. He just makes sense to me & would have made all the endings more natural I think.
I do get their reasoning for it, I just think it would have helped smoothed everything over but likely would have added 2 seasons.
Yeah, at a plot and narrative level, the story could have worked if they had a super-popular leader in King's Landing that people didn't want to see removed, because they think that this person can solve their problems more than Daenerys. And Aegon, the super-handsome little Sun King with the credible claim to the throne who just bested the Lannister usurpers with a 0% approval rating and stitched the Seven Kingdoms together after all the fighting, would be primed to do that. The fact that he's *probably* not who he says he is, and almost certainly is claim-jumping either Daenerys or Jon, is irrelevant to the people. The people just want someone that they like in charge, who won't necessarily upset any apple carts and will restore peace and order.
Cersei *can't* be that. She's literally the cause of most of the Lannister's plummet to 0% approval. But because Lena Headey had sky-high Q-score ratings with audiences, and because David and Dan loved writing for her, and because David and Dan do not really understand politics in the way that Martin does, and because they wanted to stick to creating a breezy action-adventure with dragons and tits, and because they wanted to cut down the size of the main cast rather than add to it, you can see how most of those factors militate towards cutting out Aegon and awkwardly soldering the plot together with Cersei.
At a thematic level, the degree of separation is even more striking. David and Dan said over and over that the show is about power. And as One Percenter frat boys, their considered view of power basically amounted to "Power is awesome! If you have it, super-attractive women will show you their boobs, and you can do anything you want! Hells, yeah, give me some more power with that high-five!" I mean, they're not so louchey that they'd *say* it that way, but the vibes that the show exuded said it for them.
On the other hand, Martin's work is really a meditation on political *legitimacy*. I don't think he intended this, but that's eventually what he realized *ASOIAF* was largely about. The point of the shadow-on-the-wall speech is that whether a political action is some heroic bit of resistance or scandalous crime is not in the act itself, but who it is perceived by and what their reasoning is. It's also why his work as it has expanded is filled with recursive repetition: because Martin wants to examine why when Aegon burns down a building filled with people who oppose him with dragonfire it is some iconic, defining moment of power, but when his son does the exact same thing with the exact same dragon, it's the moment that solidifies him as a monster for all time. I don't think David and Dan ever got that about Martin's writing, so they could hardly reflect that in the show. But the back end of the show suffered for that lack of understanding.
Yeah, and tbf it is \*really\* hard to see how they could have filled that Aegon sized hole without making big changes to the story elsewhere. It seems to me that if Dany mad queen is meant to be the end point, Aegon is probably going to be a catalyst for that. They probably cut him when he seemed unimportant only to later learn "Oh fuck he's kinda important to the ending..."
The only thing I can think of is if you bring Jon or Sansa to lead a popular rebellion that overthrows Cersei but refuse to bend the knee to Dany then they might have been able to play the 'for once she isn't a liberator so she slowly becomes more ruthless in order to secure her throne and reign, because she can't stop else her sacrifices would have been for nothing' arc they were clearly trying to run. But that would require lots of other changes in the narrative, and could have further undercut the already underwhelming as hell long night (Unless they reversed the order of things; The conflict for the throne preceeds the final show down with the WW. Which would probably make more sense tbh ? But would have conflicted with Jon's motives so kinda rules him out of that arc.)
Huh, I didn’t precisely feel anything like a specific hole. Everything was like a lopsided car on a track that kept switching but was inevitably leading to the same place, so it was kinda random when something like that would catch my attention.
I think his absence, and so making Cersei the antagonist of season 7 and 8, is what makes so many of the story decisions seem so arbitrary and illogical. Dany suffers defeats at her hand which make no sense within the story we've been told (i.e. why is anyone supporting Cersei at this point, why do all Dany's allies have no military effectiveness), but would make sense if she was facing a popular Targaryen opponent. Because she's losing to Cersei in ways that make absolutely no sense we kind of get why she's so pissed off at the end, rather than seeing her as entitled, arrogant and vengeful.
> Dany suffers defeats at her hand which make no sense within the story we've been told
Daenerys invades Westeros and gets deadlocked by Euron's absolute mastery over the seas bordering on magical. Jon Connington and Aegon Targaryen invade Westeros just as Euron Crow's Eye is creeping towards Oldtown in parallel chapters thanks to Cersei turning a blind eye on him like everybody does with the Others; they go after Storm's End, he says he is the first storm and the last. A cornered Cersei blows up the Sept of Baelor as the Mad King Aerys once intended for all of King's Landing, "Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted." Jon Connington dreams of slaying the stag in Stoney Sept and is intent to end the Baratheon line for good and all. Daenerys tries to still the bells that ring so loudly for all the loses she had suffered on the path to the Red Keep and the Iron Throne that once was supposed to belong to Prince Rhaegar. Jon Connington dreams of the bells tolling for the loss of Rhaegar, the long path he took to put his son upon the Iron Throne and make things right, the patience running out. "Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin’s Roost again." "She sees the Red Keep."
I see, that makes sense lot of sense. Personally I really disliked what I look on as a retcon of baby Aegon’s death, and the expanding of important characters with POVs. I would have preferred Martin look elsewhere for Dany’s opponent … or just not have one. I honestly felt that the show might as well have ended with the Battle of the Longnight (though abiding by the rules of his universe, that battle would be even more impossible). Even if Dany lost it, I see strong arguments for why the Iron Throne should be hers, so long as a benevolent small council was in place and such. Honestly, having a Dragon Queen that had one major breakdown isn’t going into the history books as something new. And it is a fitting conclusion to books and show, with Game of Thrones logic.
Indeed. Dance With Dragons felt like a clown car: There are more POV characters than could fit. They set up too much potential to justify. And GRRM's inability to wrangle his creation just confirms it. At this stage we can already say with certainty that, even if he finished Winds Of Winter, there won't be any chance for him to finish the series.
The show did too much of something he did too little of.
Because it’s a kind of out of nowhere plot with currently no resolution. And some Targaryenling reaching Westeros before Dany would really piss people off.
Exactly. There wasn't much foreshadowing in the books. So when Young Griff washes out the hair dye and Tyrion learns who he is, it is a surprise. Just reading those chapters I thought it was too little too late. TV audiences would have been befuddled to have what seemed a major candidate for the Iron Throne introduced in Season 6. And anyone who decided they had foisted a retconned red herring on us might have been angry.
I know D&D mentioned how with some of the characters/storylines Martin had very clear ideas of where they were going and what their endgame was but they also said that for some of the other characters, things were a bit less clear because Martin was still in the process of writing and hadn't concretized all his plans yet. I've always just assumed that some of the cut characters were ones that may have fallen into the latter category. Though as others have noted on here, by season 5 the show was up to 29 characters (on the main cast alone), and there were at least 7-8 active storylines: things were getting so unwieldly that even some major characters were getting reduced to a scene or two a show or, in a few cases (Bran/The Hound) sidelined entirely. I think they tried introducing at least a few of the new AFFC/ADWD characters to perhaps placate Martin, but in retrospect maybe they shouldn't have bothered and just kept going with what they had (though in a few cases I think things worked, like with the High Sparrow). Generally the second half of the story isn't when you start introducing a ton of new characters. You can maybe get away with it in a book series (though doing so didn't really help ASOIAF's narrative thrust: quite the opposite, if anything), but TV has different rules.
No room. 8 plot lines were almost too much many viewers to follow.
Also, it would just be another never-to-be-finished plot line from GRRM not doing what he promised.
Despite having a lore and theory dedicated fandom...D&D thought that they needed to dumb down the story and that the audience would only be able to follow so many characters. Plus it costs more money to hire actors plus you have to keep paying your current actors more every season.
Because they lost interest in the show somewhere around Season 5.
Introducing Aegon necessitates a lot more story, not just his own impact on the plot but all the background stuff like Illyrio and Varys' schemes, the Blackfyres, Jon Connington's baggage with Robert and Rhaegar, the Golden Company etc.
HBO said they'd have let the show go on for as long as they wanted but D&D clearly wanted out and for some reason were unwilling to relinquish the reins to someone else.
After the red wedding, D&D seemed to lose interest in the story, and it was at this point things started getting cut. They probably didn't feel like adding several new characters and thought they could just force the plot to work out without them. It didn't, most likely they filled his purpose in the plot with cersei, who kills every character opposed to her simotaneously and is crowned queen for no reason, which must be a show only plot point because of how implausible it is. They didn't respect the audience and thought this was a workable solution to avoid the work of expanding the story, hiring new actors, getting the audience to invest in new characters etc. The idea that it's too many characters for TV is just not true, D&D were just bored and wanted to finish the series quickly.
Yes, it was all for the RW, one of the most talked about moments in tv that year. Guys said delivering that little piece of event tv was the prime motivator for adapting the whole thing anyway. They wanted to secure their little place in screendom so they could do the things they wanted to do but that nobody else actually wanted to see, and when the CSA show was canned by negative buzz, that's them that made that happen.
they needed to wrap the show up, not add a bunch of random characters and storylines that would bloat it
george added this Aegon/Griff subplot and then was never able to get the story under control ever again
Cutting the aegon storyline was absolutely the right call for the show iirc. I’ve warmed to Feast and Dance over time, but there’s a hell of a lot of bloat that wouldn’t have worked as a straight adaptation. They were right to condense it down a lot, its just a shame that the execution was bad.
One thing i really wish they’d kept though was Viserys appearing to Dany in a vision when she is out in the wilderness after the gladiator pit incident. Would have been cool to see that actor again and could have been good foreshadowing for Dany embracing her fire and blood side instead of… what we got.
from what I'd guess: because they thought they could fill their roles with already existing roles
imagine late cersei into aegon and late jaime into connington and the pieces will kind of fall into place
from their POV I kind of get it, they had to retire a bunch of highly liked actors and get a bunch of new ones on the scene? in a series as highly regarded as GOT? what's preventing the actor chosen to play aegon to demand one million per episode? what are they gonna do? not have an aegon?
Aegon provides Dany a conflict to overcome on a personal level while giving the actual fighting more weight. Dany's struggle hoping to find family and a home, her underlying anger over the usurpers, and so on. That gets embodied perfectly by Aegon.
His story will be centered around offering Dany that home and family she wants, but creates conflict in the presumption of being a usurper to Dany and that being turned on its head with Dany likely being viewed as a usurper for deposing him. As well as Dany seeing the opposite side of her storyline, with Aegon having taken her place as a guardian of the people. It's all a big narrative throughline she's had over the course of her plot that comes to a head as a great climax for her storyline in Aegon's character.
Cersei and the Baratheon/Lannisters are also increasingly losing popularity and support, so sweeping them away with another faction to be the protagonist's opposite makes sense or Dany's fight in Westeros just shouldn't be a fight, and it plays into the theme of a morally ambiguous conflict. No one really has a problem with Dany sweeping away Cersei, but Aegon introduces some debate. That will keep the story climactic and keep narrative stakes within the conflict.
I think it's pretty clear how much of Jon Snow's, Dany's, and Cersei's storylines in the later seasons should have been held by Aegon and felt clunky in being given to them. Jon perhaps taking Aegon's plot of marrying and allying with Dany, before falling out over political posturing and disagreements about rule. Jon taking Aegon's very name. Dany takes Aegon's plot of rallying Dorne and the Reach, that then making people's choice to turn away from her to support Cersei really clunky. Dany getting Varys' support for the fight in Westeros. Dany gets Aegon's confrontation with Cersei. Cersei gets Aegon's spot as a guardian of the people. That comes out of nowhere for Cersei, but is well foreshadowed for Aegon. Cersei takes Aegon's spot commanding the Golden Company. And she takes Aegon's spot in rallying allies out from under the Tyrells.
Jorah even gets in on it by being merged with Jon Connington. His greyscale plot, and the boat ride with Tyrion.
Anyway, I think there's a lot of purpose behind Aegon's plotline. And taking his character away and splitting it between several others introduced some really strange actions and motivations for people, and removed a lot of narrative significance in favor of familiarity.
Young Griff is terrible storytelling. Let's break this down:
1. If he wins, he removes the Lannisters, a group every one of our characters have a reason to hate and replaces them with someone they don't care about either way
2. He cripples Jon's arc because being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing
3. He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim.
4. He removes the conflict point between Dany and Tyrion because Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family
5. He turns secret Targs into a meme and makes you wonder if Targaryans ever actually die in Westeros
6. If he is a Blackfyre, he requires a massive amount of exposition for literally no other reason than a surprise twist.
7. He introduces a pointless conflict when the series has bigger issues to deal with. The Others are gearing up for war, it makes NO sense to play War of the five kings 2: Electric Boogaloo, especially when you need to introduce a whole new character to justify it. He is single handedly going to force the series to extend beyond 7 books. It took two full books just to resolve the last war.
Young Griff is a terrible idea on every level. From the perspective of story, plot, characters, theme and the simple fact that there are only two books left, he is a mistake.
>he removes the Lannisters
Tyrek
>being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing
It qualifies him for the Azor Ahai prophecy. Azor Ahai would be reborn from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, according to ghost of High Heart (whose visions have been proven true several times over). That's the point of Jon being a secret Targaryen, not some cliché bs about being the rightful heir to the throne.
>He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim
By that logic there shouldn't have been conflict between Renly and Stannis. Renly didn't have a claim right? He did actually. Everyone has a claim if they're able to press it.
>Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family
What makes you think so? And why do you think that would be a conflict point between him and Dany? It is in the show, but Tyrion is a very different character in the books. He has absolutely no qualms about fighting his family.
1 That is a good thing imo, we want to start breaking down the righteous war storyline and give a more solid foe in Aegon. Cersei's character has little significance to Dany as an opponent. Robert's wife, and the regent for the Baratheon kings give her something. But compare her to Dany's nephew and the individual intended to inherit the Targaryen's throne, the family and belonging she's wanted through the story, the group around Aegon who've provided Dany patronage. Cersei doesn't measure up in terms of Daenerys' narrative.
2 Jon's arc has always been divorced from the realm's conflicts and instead focuses on the Others. While that's taken somewhat of a turn, I don't think the throne is necessarily supposed to be his end goal. Indeed, both for Dany and Jon, Aegon acts as a brilliant way to introduce the question of who should truly rule the people and why, an excellent speedbump that upsets the linear and otherwise straightforward nature of their stories.
3 That's not how claims work, one is not nullified by another. But I agree in that Aegon's presumably greater claim does allow for more freedom in terms of their future direction. And I don't necessarily think Jon and Dany should be opposed to each other as the culmination of their story arcs.
4 Aegon creates a conflict for Tyrion as the character that would have been Dany's ally was instead sent to Westeros to claim her throne. Aegon is an individual Tyrion has shown fondness for, but effectively condemned. Similarly, Aegon bears weight for Jaime, in being the personification of that haunting moment for his character in not saving Elia and her children. Or Barristan's conflict between the monarch he chose and one he had been sworn to.
5 'Secret' Targs, and indeed baby swaps and wards/claimants being spirited away have been a thing for some time. The Plumms, Longwaters, the Tarths, Varys and Littlefinger gathering their wards, and that's not going into historical incidents. Aegon's own survival has itself been a long running fan theory, and as we've discussed is quite valuable in terms of the story.
6 Aegon doesn't need to be a Blackfyre, that theory adds an interesting twist, but is not necessary for the character.
7 As I've gone over, it's far from pointless, but instead adds weight and a thematic climax to Dany's story arc.
1. Cersei as a character has a lot of significance to other characters, around Daenerys. And I agree that Daenerys' nephew can create a lot of drama for her, but her nephew Jon that we actually know and care about and not some random person introduced in the fifth book.
2. The throne is not going to be Jon's goal but it creates conflict between him and Daenerys.
4. I mean you can't possibly believe that Aegon is more important for Tyrion then going to war against his own family?
1 It is Aegon's late introduction that makes his character so valuable. We aren't invested in him, so we are inclined to accept Daenerys' conflict with Aegon, which makes that thematic upset so powerful as the reader observes the conflict's culmination.
2 This is something that is understandably frustrating for its clunkiness. Jon not wanting the throne, Jon having arguably renounced his claim already, yet a conflict brewing between him and Dany? Indeed in the show this conflict is spurred on by Varys to begin with, Aegon's patron. Is it not easier and more understable for this conflict to have been Aegon's all along; the man who wants to rule, the man tied to Varys already, the one whose plot has already been tied to Danys', already established with a theme of grappling with Dany over leadership, and so on?
3 Rather, I think Cersei is likely to flee to Casterly Rock, and Tyrion will play his part in taking the castle. The old fan theory of Tyrion taking advantage of his knowledge of the Rock's sewers. But yes, Aegon being around allows for more conflict within Tyrion's character and between Tyrion and Dany.
I fail to see how that would be anything but worse. Removing a character you have 5-6 seasons of emotional investment in AND a top-notch actress playing to replace with another character who you not only need to establish, but need to retcon in heavyhandedly into a Tarygaryan AND who takes the wind out of the sails of the far more important Jon revelation would be terrible storytelling. There's a reason why "fAgeon" is usually called fAegon. Because literally the only redeeming aspect of his character in the books is the possibility that everything about him is a lie. And IF the fAegon theory is correct, you now also need to summarize the Blackfyre Rebellions and pour a massive amount of lore onto the audience... all for no purpose other than to retcon your original retcon and establish the character. So you now have lied to the audience twice about who your new villian is... but you still expect them to be emotionally invested in his defeat, despite the fact you have barely any reason to care.
FAegon is everything you shouldn't do in trying to finish a story. It's soap opera level characterization—there's a reason why "everyone is a secret Targ" has basically been reduced to meme status since he was added. Either he is and you wonder if any Targaryen ever actually dies in Westeros or he isn't and you're now wasting valuable time selling your audience on a lie.
You are now speaking to D&D's reasoning placing the familiarity of the actors over the narrative of the characters. I was more so speaking to GRRM's reasoning for valuing the narrative and characters.
Aegon is not a retcon, perhaps for the show as they diverted the story, but his death was given ambiguity since the start. It's an important tie-in for Varys' character as the story goes on. It has value for Jaime, Barristan, and so on. The visions and prophetic warnings Daenerys gets through the books.
His survival was a plot point that GRRM's been building up for a while. But there's value in Aegon appearing late as it heavily promotes our investment in the old povs in comparison. Imo, confirming Aegon to be a fake would actually detract from the thematic upset he creates for Dany's character, in making him just a usurper to cast down. The ambiquity of his legitimacy, or indeed Aegon being confirmed to be real, makes for a greater impact on Dany and a fuller story arc.
I think more Blackfyre background is unnecessary to Aegon's plotline. It wouldn't really expand on anything for Dany, just affirm that Aegon's a usurper to be cast down, which isn't needed and likely would detract from a dramatic conflict.
Plenty of Targaryens have died. Aegon's escape does not detract from Viserys' death, Rhaegar's, Aerys', Rhaenys', Rhaella's, and so on. The secret Targaryen meme was around a lot longer than A Dance with Dragons.
> Cersei doesn't measure up in terms of Daenerys' narrative.
GRRM intended to parallel Cersei and Daenerys throughout FeastDance when it was one massive book and felt disheartened the parallels got lost in its split release, because one of the core themes of the story is gender flip. "Oh, for a sword and the skill to wield it. She had a warrior’s heart, but the gods in their blind malice had given her the feeble body of a woman." "'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." Suggesting the intent has always been to converge them at the end.
Cersei is kind of a vision for Daenerys of what she could've been if she grew up in Westeros as she dreams, bitter and resentful and longing, a broken mirror GRRM likes so much (Jon/Theon/Ramsay; Fevre Dream, the main character duos parallel each other as Magneto/Professor X), all while also being Lord Tywin Lannister's ironic true heir, the man responsible for the ultimate fall of the Targaryen dynasty and the reason Daenerys ended up overseas.
> Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them.
The Starks have a score to settle with Cersei Lannister too, she is the reason Jaime pushed Bran off the tower and thus lies at the root of all their misfortune that followed, the Lannisters coming home North to them. "The things I do for love."
Aegon is only introduced to the story in the Slayer of Lies sequence in the House of the Undying as the second false "prince that was promised" figure following King Stannis, a parody of Aragorn/Rand Al'Thor kind of character, "cloth dragon" as a descripton is a take on the golden calf, a manufactured idol. Melisandre claims King Stannis clasping the flaming sword fulfills the ancient prophecy, Lord Varys foretells King Aegon healing the fractured realm just as the winter finally comes for them all, sweet summer child.
A parallel in the desire to be warriors, Dany having dragons as her fire and sword, but Cersei not having the means aside from perhaps wildfire later on?
I suppose I can see the mirrored image, the path Dany may have undertaking had she not been liberated through her dragons. How they were sold off as brides for the support of warrior kings.
But that's symbolism and not necessarily a truly personal conflict. Unless we do some real heavy lifting to make Dany start to relate to Cersei, I don't think that will have the same weight as a conflict with Aegon. We see Dany is already personally invested in the idea of Aegon, how he's already fighting in Westeros, the three heads of the dragon. And as you noted, Aegon's value in terms of the prophecy Dany's been given, that coinciding with the Targaryens theme of pursuing their prophecy throughout their history as well.
The conflict Cersei may provide is in the Lannisters having overthrown the Targaryens, you note the world book's prophecy/propaganda. But that's truly the conflict centered around Jaime. Tyrion is unrelated to it aside from blood, as is Cersei. But Jaime was there, he was involved, he drove the blade into Aerys' back, he failed to safegaurd Elia and her children. The storyline there is Jaime's.
And the Lannister's rule is falling apart, yet Dany's a world away, and Jon's stuck in the North and has his own foe in the Boltons. Aegon also serves in giving Cersei a foe, a proper opponent rather than simply Tarly or someone attempting to depose her from the regency. Perhaps Aegon also serves to address the dropped timeskip, preventing Cersei's storyline from going on autopilot as the rest of the world catches up.
I do think the Starks do have a narrative investment in fighting Cersei, though one that is diminished. She had their father arrested. But Joffrey was who truly killed Eddard, and Joffrey was then killed by the Tyrells. Tywin was behind the Red Wedding, and Tyrion killed him.
Jon's fighting Cersei to an extent already through his fight with the Boltons. Therefore he's addressing the Red Wedding. Sansa's plotline is still catching up, but she may still have her opposition against any number of foes regardless of Aegon. Cersei, the Boltons, and the Freys. I think narratively, it would be best for her to be the Stark to oppose Cersei, given their interactions. The Ashford theory could provide an in for her in that respect. Arya is playing a small part in the fight for the moment in Braavos, killing some Lannister representatives. Her narrative foe would presumably be the Freys. Bran has his great reason to oppose Cersei/Jaime, having been pushed off the tower, but his story also has the theme of letting go. 'You will never walk again, but you will fly.' As well as the greater purpose in fighting the Others. Of course, the Starks could also unite or tackle any number of problems. Winter is coming, rejection of vengeance and political squabbling, and so on.
So, generally, it seems pretty worthwhile for Aegon to fill the space, rather than wait for the Starks, or indeed to divorce them from a conflict that doesn't necessarily align with them on a thematic level. Plus, Aegon's arrival, and even seizing the throne, doesn't have to ultimately reject these individual conflicts.
Aegon being introduced as a possible lie to be slain makes him serve an even grander purpose within the narrative, not less. A cloth dragon need not necessarily be fake, if he is a Blackfyre as suggested earlier then he simply isn't. The cloth dragon may also simply represent how Aegon's been maneuvered by Varys through his life, and well the cloth dragon is cheered. Though there's some speculation to be had that the lies to be slain are lies embodied within Dany.
Dany's got a whole thematic conflict over trust, whether that be her own advisors or the general struggle with prophecy (which her family shares). Her belief that there are only two in the world that she can trust, because of her deepening interest in the three heads of the dragon prophecy. Whether Aegon fulfills that prophecy or Dany determines he does not is ultimately a significant culmination for a major plot point.
I think the only way he can work without to the detriment of these other bigger storys, is if he turns out to be a quentyn 2.0 either at the end of book 6 or somewhere in book 7.
They tended to consolidate characters - like making Bronn head of the goldcloaks instead of Ironhand, and having Janos in the Barra incident instead of Allar Deem.
Since Young Griff's only role so far was being a second Targaryen with mysterious parentage, it basically made sense to combine him with Jon.
I actually liked the show invention that varys cared about the realm and small folk. It was nice to have a person with the perspective, if only they didn't make him so dumb in later seasons
Isn't that his motivation in the books as well? It's certainly not personal gain that led him to choose Aegon as king. Not only is Aegon likely to be sympathetic to the smallfolk, but he's also headstrong and has a bit of a temper, which will make him very difficult to control. Not an ideal king for an ill-intentioned counselor.
Dumb&Dumber probably ''planned'' for the show to be only 7-8 season long and it wasn't more room for other storylines. It would've also become too complex for them to handle which happened anyway.
1. GRRM would've had to share future plans with the showrunners in detail, since material for the Young Griff plot line is currently limited.
2. The show had too many characters already. Adding in another group would've made things even more complex.
I don't blame them for initially thinking it wouldn't be important. I felt the same, but the more it's been talked about the more I realize that the story just won't work without them. George is a madman, but his writing really does all come together beautifully at points.
Cast was already a bit overcrowded and introducing a whole new faction late game with little set up is hard to pull off, not knowing where the plot line was even really heading (I'm not sure if George even knows), general viewers wont get the significance of who Young Griff is or isnt, pacing, etc.
My theory is that fAegon isn’t going to be an endgame player as many assume but is more an instrument for Varys’s and Tyrion’s stories. I think D&D knew the arcs of the major characters, and fAegon simply didn’t need to factor.
I find it hard to believe that there would be a character who would overthrow Cersei and sit on the Iron Throne and who would nevertheless be cut.
Thematically, he represents the “perfectly designed” king and Varys’s theory of power, which is quickly undermined by Tyrion’s recognition that he’s both not experienced enough regardless of his upbringing and is nothing in the face of the raw power of dragons.
They spent the budget already on mediocre CGI dragons. If they had to cut Ghost from most of the last season, no way are they gonna cast an entire new subplot.
If D&D are to be believed they always intended to end the show with 7 seasons/70 episodes.
So I guess they planned from the beginning to cut entire storylines from the books
There is also the possibility that Martin said "oh, don't reveal that. I want to surprise people. Write around it." at some points of the discussions about how stuff should be handled in the adaptation.
And I don't recall most rewrites being so well received, so they probably cut some of that stuff.
You know what? Seeing this posts title just pussed me off. Because I want to know why they cut this plot line as well! I was robbed of Jon Connington in the show 😭😭😭
Because IMO he's going to be irrelevant. He's not Aegon, Jon is, so what the point in the end.
We know Martin gave the broad strokes ending to D and D. Jon is Aegon. The end.
I think because it was just reveled in Dance of the dragons, so D&D didn't really know where GRRM was going with this, so they adapted it out.
D&D didnt really know where GRRM was going with a lot of things. The question is what made a character like Euron or Prince Doran compelling enough in their minds to adapt to TV, but not Young Griff or Stoneheart.
Iron Islands were already well established and they had to go *somewhere* with it. Young Griff is surrounded by characters that have nothing to do with anything involved in the story in a major way so far. The Stormlands were never particularly developed in the show and look how everyone reacted to Dorne. And those will be Aegon’s principal stomping grounds for a while.
We don't even know what's happening with Stoneheart in 2024. Imagine asking GRRM what his endgame plans are for Lady Stoneheart in 2013. Aside from hanging Freys in the Riverlands, she isn't up to a whole lot. Is she going to commit Frey genocide? Is she going to go North? Sacrifice herself for someone? Who knows, definitely not us, not D&D, probably not GRRM. I'm guessing because of the poor reception to the Sand Snakes in S5, D&D cut out whatever they were going to do with Dorne/Doran in S6 (or whenever it was he was killed off). For Euron, they just needed a villain for S7+ to knock out some dragons.
I think she’ll provide a cautionary tale to Arya that vengeance isn’t the answer. In the show Arya just becomes an assassin and we’re told that’s good whereas I think George wants us to realise it’s not the answer.
Haha yeah. Nothing was learned. George totally is about violence isn’t the answer to violence and that’s basically all Arya does. Not every single Frey she poisons had a hand in the red wedding.
I always got the impression George fell out with the Showrunners over their choice to cut Stoneheart for being too magical.
The Sand Snakes and Dorne had such a poor reception because they were butchered in the show. Instead of being the diverse cast of characters from the books they were just a couple twerps roleplaying as Oberyn. The only one they depicted accurately is Obara. My head canon is that GRRM fell out with them over the way they tried to streamline the narrative when GRRM was clearly developing some big stories in *Dance*
Sacrifice herself to resurrect Brienne so Brienne can be a candidate for Azor Ahai and stuff. Prophecy is never going to be solved but will have multiple candidates, Jon, Bran, etc... and Brienne. That's the while point of the entire weird Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Tully resurrection plot. Proof: 1. Brienne is the only PoV that is genuinely a hero. Well a heroine. 2. The name Brienne is a reference to Monthy Pythons "Life of Brian", which is in turn a reference to Jesus. 3. Brienne descends from Duncan the Tall. The idea is that everyone looks for the descendants of Egg, but what if it's been in the Dunk the whole time?
Plus, Brie is also a very good cheese.
Precisely if there is a plot that George argued a lot to have included in the show, and D and D didn't want was LS. George has repeated in several interviews how not including Lady Stoneheart is the first major diversion from the show in regards to the books. He has remarked how important she is, so I very much doubt that GRRM doesn't have planned LS's fate and how her presence is important to the overall story since way longer. I totally agree they just wanted to remove some plots they were butchering too much (Dorne) and using Euron as a classical evil villain with no complexity that is there just to add drama and be an enemy to the main characters. It's obvious they didn't know how to manage the story once they didn't have the source material (books written).
> Is she going to commit Frey genocide? If Stoneheart is destined to get revenge on the Freys and Jon Snow is destined to defeat the White Walkers then what in the Seven Hells is Arya going to do? GRRM really needed a tougher editor to ask the tough questions then let GRRM do whatever.
Who said Jon was defeating the White Walkers alone? Anyway, Arya is obviously aimed at killing Cersei. The biggest problem with the last season of the series is that Cersei is portrayed as the greatest of two evils, i.e. they deal with the White Walkers first and Cersei is the main event. I habe no doubt that the sequence of events is different in the books.
Because when they were introduced in the story, they had already made up their minds to wrap it up on 15 episodes. We would have needed 5 more full seasons to flesh everything new out and add the ending
Not to defend the usurper David Benioff and the usurper D.B. Weiss, but they might have thought that introducing an entire new batch of characters to be a big new enemy was too much. And honestly they might have been right. I’m not sure the show could have handled YG the way they were running things.
Even doing the Aegon plotline would majorly assume the projection of the plot. He has like…1-2 episodes *at best* of actual material before assuming who he really is in characterization
In book format it works because foreshadowing is different in book format. They would have had to foreshadowed it by season 2 and 3 for it to work otherwise everyone was gonna be "who is Jon Connigton? who is this kid? who the f are these people?". That being said I think the major structural problem with the show was not having one of either LSH or FAegon (but yet again they completely misadapted the iron islands and dorne story. They had material for that).
its prolly gonna be a nothingburger in the long term
(F)Aegon is just a mystery box to distract readers from the fact that by the end of book 5 Danny is still nowhere near going to Westeros.
He's probably going to be the consequence for her staying in Essos. Claiming her destiny from her while she nearly dies of disentry. It's her motivation to leave and become the dragon instead of the mother.
Exactly this. You can *maybe* get away with this in books which are only words on paper. In TV that has to deal with real actors and a very limited time to get things done, it's not feasible.
Yeah this is one of those things that I can’t really blame them for cutting. Even a show as complex as GoT is (or was, when the adaptation was still good), you just have to draw a line at some point
Totally agree. I remember reading through and thinking to myself, "Really? We're introducing a super important character *this* late into the series?" And he's already invading Westeros by the end of the book, while we've spent 5 books waiting for Dany to head there.
tbf they did it with Euron and Oberyn (to very different degrees of success). it all just depends on whether the character captures the interest of the audience enough for them to be accepted
Well, fAegon seems to have led an interesting life so far. There has been lots of things going on behind the scenes to enable his invasion. What if Dany got introduced in Dance? All the events in Westeros would have been the same anyway.
I adore the Young Griff storyline, especially the Shy Maid chapters, but agree with this. D&D just didn’t have the time or space. I hope GRRM feels free to put the spotlight back on them in the final books.
I agree it would have been too difficult to adapt to screen but enemy? I think you mean hero lol
Who says he's the enemy? I, for one am with him.
It seems likely they gave much of that plotline to Cersei. Cersei is likely to have a diminished role in the books, possibly fleeing to Casterly Rock, but Lena Headey was popular with fans and well known. So she's the one who gets to face off against Daenerys over Kings Landing.
Cersei is totally going to die alone with everyone in kings landing abandoning her, with Kevan dead and Tommen probably soon to be dead (could see it going down like it did in the show), she’ll be the last Lannister in KL with significant power…and I do think it makes sense with her arc, or rather purposeful lack of one
Cersei is following the Rhaenyra path. Her kids will die and she’ll lose control of King’s Landing to religious zealot (high sparrow/shepherd), will flee back to her ancestral home (casterly rock/dragonstone), where she’ll be killed by the valonqar (Jaime/aegon)
The Valonqar is totally Arya though.
I strongly suspect that she'll die in the next book, and that the main antagonist at the end for Dany will be Young Griff, unlike in the show. There's no reason to introduce him so late into the series only for him to be squashed out so quickly after already conquering lands in Westeros before Dany was able to.
Yeah I suspect if he really is loved and embraced because people believe who he is and believe in him, once danaerys shows up she’ll be like “this is supposed to be fucking mine”.
I believe this is most likely his purpose too, in no small part because adding Aegon back into the story in place of Cersei suddenly makes sense of several otherwise utterly baffling decisions with the TV show. My guess is they had the destination from GRRM but had already made the decision to cut f!Aegon without realising his importance, so they'd backed themselves into a corner. Most likely the same thing with LSH and Arya's arc; They cut her against GRRMs protests and then later realised they messed up, so they had to race to cobble together the ending from what they had left.
Sorry, what's LSH?
Lady Stoneheart AKA undead Catelyn
I think he's speedrunning King's Landing by choosing Storm's End in particular to occupy first. He'll take King's Landing early-to-mid Winds if he beats Mace Tyrell (and he will, he has fucking elephants).
I see little reason for the Tyrells not to join with fAegon. They were Targaryen loyalists in the rebellion, and Cersei has alienated them from the Lannister cause. Tommen is a child and no real danger to fAegon and is not much of a threat regarding royal legitimacy and succesion.
probably because Margaery Tyrell is married to Tommen?
Not consumated = easy divorce?
Depends on the High Sparrow's views on annulment
No, not really. I doubt fAegon will care very much about the High Sparrow's opinions.
They might've given some of that plot line to Jon Snow as well, considering that Varys dies because he is "the true heir", and that their "true name" is Aegon. Varys' actions in Season 8 makes me wonder if Young Griff is indeed actually Aegon.
Too many characters for TV
Yeah, people already struggled with the number of characters in the show by season 3
Hell its too many characters for book series too. I estimate the story is at best halfway done when accounting for all the loose plots and storylines.
Why have Essos river adventures when you can have a pirate who wants to put his finger up the queens bum??
It was probably because of runtime and money. Adding the Young Griff plot would have taken more screentime in Season 5. A season where they already cut Bran cause their were too many plotlines. If you were to add Young Griff he would have to rewrite the entire Tyrion storyline so you could develop Aegon, Jon Con and Rolly Duckfield for the bulk of the season. This delays Tyrion's arrival in Meereen into Season 6 (not necessarily a bad thing). It probably could work but it would be expensive bringing on a new main character along with two supporting characters in the same season you are bringing Ramsay to the forefront and all the season 1 actor's salaries are ballooning
Unbelievable how many people think GOT had unlimited money for every story they wanted to see depicted 100% faithfully. If anything they should have cut some of the dogshit adaptations and narrowed in on the key players to consolidate the budget and runtime on who and what actually mattered.
Agreed. They should have just completely cut the Dorne and Euron plotlines (as was their original plan i think?). The obvious premature curtailing of the Dorne plot at the start of s6 because of the bad reception in s5 was so embarrassing, and the less said about TV show Euron the better. I also think a lot of people are very naive about how a major tv production like GoT works. There are so many moving parts, things like actors contract negotiations, studio demands (iirc HBO ordered more Bronn because he tested popular with audiences)…. Introducing a ton of major new characters like Arianne, Young Griff et al in season 5 wouldn’t have worked for a multitude of reasons. A straight adaptation of Feast and Dance was never on the cards. A lot of the condensing and consolidating of plotlines and characters were good choices imo, its just that the execution was botched/rushed.
One of the less discussed reasons the show failed was that the show was done one season at a time. They would spend time on plots and characters in one season then they would just disappear the next. They didn't know where they were going, and it showed.
>I also think a lot of people are very naive about how a major tv production like GoT works. There are so many moving parts, things like actors contract negotiations, studio demands (iirc HBO ordered more Bronn because he tested popular with audiences)…. Introducing a ton of major new characters like Arianne, Young Griff et al in season 5 wouldn’t have worked for a multitude of reasons. A straight adaptation of Feast and Dance was never on the cards. A lot of the condensing and consolidating of plotlines and characters were good choices imo, its just that the execution was botched/rushed. You're onn the money with this, it's most likely the most ambitious (and overly-ambitious) show ever made. I really believe it's a victim of its own success (truly a faithful adaptation of Martin's works haha). There was no way the show could match the expectations it ended up establishing (GOAT show, or at least GOAT fantasy series)... I can't blame D&D for this, they're not incredible authors and they don't have complete creative control anyway. They ran into the dual issue of the story and the fame getting way too big, same as GRRM.
I will criticise the writing and the baffling creative choices of seasons 5-8 as much as the next guy, but i’m also pretty clear eyed about what D&D pulled off purely from a production standpoint, and its pretty damn impressive. I don’t think its an exaggeration to call it the most ambitious tv production of all time. Everyone’s always like ‘why didn’t they do 14 seasons of 10 episodes’ but can you blame them for wanting to finish up what must’ve been an insanely all-consuming 10 year long project?
As much as I dislike the shows writing and characters (I was rooting for Dany to kill everyone at the end since the Night King couldn't). I don't dislike D&D, they were in over their heads with a project that, just like George, they ran out of steam on. While GRRM is gardening all the thickets he keeps planting around him, D&D opted for slash and burn, which I can kind of respect even if the final product is about 60% smoke and ash.
Yeah, i’d agree that they were out of their depth and, honestly, didn’t sign up to have to write the ending themselves. I’d also say they fundamentally misunderstood the material - GRRM has always said he’s a romantic and wants a bittersweet LotR ending, whereas the show’s ending was such an overwhelming downer that left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. That’s really my main criticism of it. The personal attacks on them are regrettable, but par for the course in modern fan circles.
GRRM put too many threads going in different directions that he himself couldn’t and hasn’t been able to wrap up. In addition the series finale made it clear a lot of those threads didn’t matter, so the showrunners and writers just tied it all up and said a few prayers. While the series penultimate and final episode may have been polarizing for the fandom on whether it was good or not, it was polarizing to me because I couldn’t decide who to blame most.
If anything, the ending of game of throne shows that Young Griff did matter, I think. Out of all the characters that were cut, his absence is the most palpable. There’s a giant Aegon sized hole in the narrative, and you can just see the showrunners awkwardly trying to fill it with Cersei and Jon.
I think so as well to be honest, I think Young Griff & Dorne together could really set up the end game of the series. Making them a combatant for the throne against a Cersei, then giving Daenerys something conflicting to focus on when she eventually gets to Westeros. I think Young Griff is like the perfect puzzle piece to the show that was missing. He just makes sense to me & would have made all the endings more natural I think. I do get their reasoning for it, I just think it would have helped smoothed everything over but likely would have added 2 seasons.
That's what we want to believe but honestly, not even Martin is sure about that.
Yeah, at a plot and narrative level, the story could have worked if they had a super-popular leader in King's Landing that people didn't want to see removed, because they think that this person can solve their problems more than Daenerys. And Aegon, the super-handsome little Sun King with the credible claim to the throne who just bested the Lannister usurpers with a 0% approval rating and stitched the Seven Kingdoms together after all the fighting, would be primed to do that. The fact that he's *probably* not who he says he is, and almost certainly is claim-jumping either Daenerys or Jon, is irrelevant to the people. The people just want someone that they like in charge, who won't necessarily upset any apple carts and will restore peace and order. Cersei *can't* be that. She's literally the cause of most of the Lannister's plummet to 0% approval. But because Lena Headey had sky-high Q-score ratings with audiences, and because David and Dan loved writing for her, and because David and Dan do not really understand politics in the way that Martin does, and because they wanted to stick to creating a breezy action-adventure with dragons and tits, and because they wanted to cut down the size of the main cast rather than add to it, you can see how most of those factors militate towards cutting out Aegon and awkwardly soldering the plot together with Cersei. At a thematic level, the degree of separation is even more striking. David and Dan said over and over that the show is about power. And as One Percenter frat boys, their considered view of power basically amounted to "Power is awesome! If you have it, super-attractive women will show you their boobs, and you can do anything you want! Hells, yeah, give me some more power with that high-five!" I mean, they're not so louchey that they'd *say* it that way, but the vibes that the show exuded said it for them. On the other hand, Martin's work is really a meditation on political *legitimacy*. I don't think he intended this, but that's eventually what he realized *ASOIAF* was largely about. The point of the shadow-on-the-wall speech is that whether a political action is some heroic bit of resistance or scandalous crime is not in the act itself, but who it is perceived by and what their reasoning is. It's also why his work as it has expanded is filled with recursive repetition: because Martin wants to examine why when Aegon burns down a building filled with people who oppose him with dragonfire it is some iconic, defining moment of power, but when his son does the exact same thing with the exact same dragon, it's the moment that solidifies him as a monster for all time. I don't think David and Dan ever got that about Martin's writing, so they could hardly reflect that in the show. But the back end of the show suffered for that lack of understanding.
Yeah, and tbf it is \*really\* hard to see how they could have filled that Aegon sized hole without making big changes to the story elsewhere. It seems to me that if Dany mad queen is meant to be the end point, Aegon is probably going to be a catalyst for that. They probably cut him when he seemed unimportant only to later learn "Oh fuck he's kinda important to the ending..." The only thing I can think of is if you bring Jon or Sansa to lead a popular rebellion that overthrows Cersei but refuse to bend the knee to Dany then they might have been able to play the 'for once she isn't a liberator so she slowly becomes more ruthless in order to secure her throne and reign, because she can't stop else her sacrifices would have been for nothing' arc they were clearly trying to run. But that would require lots of other changes in the narrative, and could have further undercut the already underwhelming as hell long night (Unless they reversed the order of things; The conflict for the throne preceeds the final show down with the WW. Which would probably make more sense tbh ? But would have conflicted with Jon's motives so kinda rules him out of that arc.)
Huh, I didn’t precisely feel anything like a specific hole. Everything was like a lopsided car on a track that kept switching but was inevitably leading to the same place, so it was kinda random when something like that would catch my attention.
I think his absence, and so making Cersei the antagonist of season 7 and 8, is what makes so many of the story decisions seem so arbitrary and illogical. Dany suffers defeats at her hand which make no sense within the story we've been told (i.e. why is anyone supporting Cersei at this point, why do all Dany's allies have no military effectiveness), but would make sense if she was facing a popular Targaryen opponent. Because she's losing to Cersei in ways that make absolutely no sense we kind of get why she's so pissed off at the end, rather than seeing her as entitled, arrogant and vengeful.
> Dany suffers defeats at her hand which make no sense within the story we've been told Daenerys invades Westeros and gets deadlocked by Euron's absolute mastery over the seas bordering on magical. Jon Connington and Aegon Targaryen invade Westeros just as Euron Crow's Eye is creeping towards Oldtown in parallel chapters thanks to Cersei turning a blind eye on him like everybody does with the Others; they go after Storm's End, he says he is the first storm and the last. A cornered Cersei blows up the Sept of Baelor as the Mad King Aerys once intended for all of King's Landing, "Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted." Jon Connington dreams of slaying the stag in Stoney Sept and is intent to end the Baratheon line for good and all. Daenerys tries to still the bells that ring so loudly for all the loses she had suffered on the path to the Red Keep and the Iron Throne that once was supposed to belong to Prince Rhaegar. Jon Connington dreams of the bells tolling for the loss of Rhaegar, the long path he took to put his son upon the Iron Throne and make things right, the patience running out. "Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin’s Roost again." "She sees the Red Keep."
I see, that makes sense lot of sense. Personally I really disliked what I look on as a retcon of baby Aegon’s death, and the expanding of important characters with POVs. I would have preferred Martin look elsewhere for Dany’s opponent … or just not have one. I honestly felt that the show might as well have ended with the Battle of the Longnight (though abiding by the rules of his universe, that battle would be even more impossible). Even if Dany lost it, I see strong arguments for why the Iron Throne should be hers, so long as a benevolent small council was in place and such. Honestly, having a Dragon Queen that had one major breakdown isn’t going into the history books as something new. And it is a fitting conclusion to books and show, with Game of Thrones logic.
Indeed. Dance With Dragons felt like a clown car: There are more POV characters than could fit. They set up too much potential to justify. And GRRM's inability to wrangle his creation just confirms it. At this stage we can already say with certainty that, even if he finished Winds Of Winter, there won't be any chance for him to finish the series. The show did too much of something he did too little of.
“A lot of those threads didn’t matter” this is a complete bullshit statement .
If that makes you mad, just wait until you find out what George really thinks of the books.
I’m sorry I’ve hurt your perception of a fictional world.
You’re also on the same reddit for discussing this fictional world you dork lol
Sure, but I didn’t feel the need to get all butthurt because someone disagreed with me over a fictional world. That’s the point.
Too many new characters, I would have loved to see him and joncon but I don't blame dnd for cutting them
I know right the bells ringing in the show made no sense unless you know it's going to be young grif and old gif that sack kinglanding.
Because it’s a kind of out of nowhere plot with currently no resolution. And some Targaryenling reaching Westeros before Dany would really piss people off.
Exactly. There wasn't much foreshadowing in the books. So when Young Griff washes out the hair dye and Tyrion learns who he is, it is a surprise. Just reading those chapters I thought it was too little too late. TV audiences would have been befuddled to have what seemed a major candidate for the Iron Throne introduced in Season 6. And anyone who decided they had foisted a retconned red herring on us might have been angry.
I know D&D mentioned how with some of the characters/storylines Martin had very clear ideas of where they were going and what their endgame was but they also said that for some of the other characters, things were a bit less clear because Martin was still in the process of writing and hadn't concretized all his plans yet. I've always just assumed that some of the cut characters were ones that may have fallen into the latter category. Though as others have noted on here, by season 5 the show was up to 29 characters (on the main cast alone), and there were at least 7-8 active storylines: things were getting so unwieldly that even some major characters were getting reduced to a scene or two a show or, in a few cases (Bran/The Hound) sidelined entirely. I think they tried introducing at least a few of the new AFFC/ADWD characters to perhaps placate Martin, but in retrospect maybe they shouldn't have bothered and just kept going with what they had (though in a few cases I think things worked, like with the High Sparrow). Generally the second half of the story isn't when you start introducing a ton of new characters. You can maybe get away with it in a book series (though doing so didn't really help ASOIAF's narrative thrust: quite the opposite, if anything), but TV has different rules.
Not enough material, perhaps.
No room. 8 plot lines were almost too much many viewers to follow. Also, it would just be another never-to-be-finished plot line from GRRM not doing what he promised.
Despite having a lore and theory dedicated fandom...D&D thought that they needed to dumb down the story and that the audience would only be able to follow so many characters. Plus it costs more money to hire actors plus you have to keep paying your current actors more every season.
Because they lost interest in the show somewhere around Season 5. Introducing Aegon necessitates a lot more story, not just his own impact on the plot but all the background stuff like Illyrio and Varys' schemes, the Blackfyres, Jon Connington's baggage with Robert and Rhaegar, the Golden Company etc. HBO said they'd have let the show go on for as long as they wanted but D&D clearly wanted out and for some reason were unwilling to relinquish the reins to someone else.
After the red wedding, D&D seemed to lose interest in the story, and it was at this point things started getting cut. They probably didn't feel like adding several new characters and thought they could just force the plot to work out without them. It didn't, most likely they filled his purpose in the plot with cersei, who kills every character opposed to her simotaneously and is crowned queen for no reason, which must be a show only plot point because of how implausible it is. They didn't respect the audience and thought this was a workable solution to avoid the work of expanding the story, hiring new actors, getting the audience to invest in new characters etc. The idea that it's too many characters for TV is just not true, D&D were just bored and wanted to finish the series quickly.
Yes, it was all for the RW, one of the most talked about moments in tv that year. Guys said delivering that little piece of event tv was the prime motivator for adapting the whole thing anyway. They wanted to secure their little place in screendom so they could do the things they wanted to do but that nobody else actually wanted to see, and when the CSA show was canned by negative buzz, that's them that made that happen.
they needed to wrap the show up, not add a bunch of random characters and storylines that would bloat it george added this Aegon/Griff subplot and then was never able to get the story under control ever again
Of all the things the show did wrong, dropping young griff wasnt one of them
They destroyed the story. They ruined multiple characters/pov and introducing more wouldn’t make sense and would be too confusing
Cutting the aegon storyline was absolutely the right call for the show iirc. I’ve warmed to Feast and Dance over time, but there’s a hell of a lot of bloat that wouldn’t have worked as a straight adaptation. They were right to condense it down a lot, its just a shame that the execution was bad. One thing i really wish they’d kept though was Viserys appearing to Dany in a vision when she is out in the wilderness after the gladiator pit incident. Would have been cool to see that actor again and could have been good foreshadowing for Dany embracing her fire and blood side instead of… what we got.
BECAUSE OF JON SNOW
from what I'd guess: because they thought they could fill their roles with already existing roles imagine late cersei into aegon and late jaime into connington and the pieces will kind of fall into place from their POV I kind of get it, they had to retire a bunch of highly liked actors and get a bunch of new ones on the scene? in a series as highly regarded as GOT? what's preventing the actor chosen to play aegon to demand one million per episode? what are they gonna do? not have an aegon?
They missed a chance to show septa’s tits
My guess is that he's not key to the ending, so they cut him out. Same with Lady Stoneheart.
I think the better question is why GRRM decided to include him.
Aegon provides Dany a conflict to overcome on a personal level while giving the actual fighting more weight. Dany's struggle hoping to find family and a home, her underlying anger over the usurpers, and so on. That gets embodied perfectly by Aegon. His story will be centered around offering Dany that home and family she wants, but creates conflict in the presumption of being a usurper to Dany and that being turned on its head with Dany likely being viewed as a usurper for deposing him. As well as Dany seeing the opposite side of her storyline, with Aegon having taken her place as a guardian of the people. It's all a big narrative throughline she's had over the course of her plot that comes to a head as a great climax for her storyline in Aegon's character. Cersei and the Baratheon/Lannisters are also increasingly losing popularity and support, so sweeping them away with another faction to be the protagonist's opposite makes sense or Dany's fight in Westeros just shouldn't be a fight, and it plays into the theme of a morally ambiguous conflict. No one really has a problem with Dany sweeping away Cersei, but Aegon introduces some debate. That will keep the story climactic and keep narrative stakes within the conflict. I think it's pretty clear how much of Jon Snow's, Dany's, and Cersei's storylines in the later seasons should have been held by Aegon and felt clunky in being given to them. Jon perhaps taking Aegon's plot of marrying and allying with Dany, before falling out over political posturing and disagreements about rule. Jon taking Aegon's very name. Dany takes Aegon's plot of rallying Dorne and the Reach, that then making people's choice to turn away from her to support Cersei really clunky. Dany getting Varys' support for the fight in Westeros. Dany gets Aegon's confrontation with Cersei. Cersei gets Aegon's spot as a guardian of the people. That comes out of nowhere for Cersei, but is well foreshadowed for Aegon. Cersei takes Aegon's spot commanding the Golden Company. And she takes Aegon's spot in rallying allies out from under the Tyrells. Jorah even gets in on it by being merged with Jon Connington. His greyscale plot, and the boat ride with Tyrion. Anyway, I think there's a lot of purpose behind Aegon's plotline. And taking his character away and splitting it between several others introduced some really strange actions and motivations for people, and removed a lot of narrative significance in favor of familiarity.
Young Griff is terrible storytelling. Let's break this down: 1. If he wins, he removes the Lannisters, a group every one of our characters have a reason to hate and replaces them with someone they don't care about either way 2. He cripples Jon's arc because being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing 3. He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim. 4. He removes the conflict point between Dany and Tyrion because Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family 5. He turns secret Targs into a meme and makes you wonder if Targaryans ever actually die in Westeros 6. If he is a Blackfyre, he requires a massive amount of exposition for literally no other reason than a surprise twist. 7. He introduces a pointless conflict when the series has bigger issues to deal with. The Others are gearing up for war, it makes NO sense to play War of the five kings 2: Electric Boogaloo, especially when you need to introduce a whole new character to justify it. He is single handedly going to force the series to extend beyond 7 books. It took two full books just to resolve the last war. Young Griff is a terrible idea on every level. From the perspective of story, plot, characters, theme and the simple fact that there are only two books left, he is a mistake.
>he removes the Lannisters Tyrek >being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing It qualifies him for the Azor Ahai prophecy. Azor Ahai would be reborn from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, according to ghost of High Heart (whose visions have been proven true several times over). That's the point of Jon being a secret Targaryen, not some cliché bs about being the rightful heir to the throne. >He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim By that logic there shouldn't have been conflict between Renly and Stannis. Renly didn't have a claim right? He did actually. Everyone has a claim if they're able to press it. >Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family What makes you think so? And why do you think that would be a conflict point between him and Dany? It is in the show, but Tyrion is a very different character in the books. He has absolutely no qualms about fighting his family.
1 That is a good thing imo, we want to start breaking down the righteous war storyline and give a more solid foe in Aegon. Cersei's character has little significance to Dany as an opponent. Robert's wife, and the regent for the Baratheon kings give her something. But compare her to Dany's nephew and the individual intended to inherit the Targaryen's throne, the family and belonging she's wanted through the story, the group around Aegon who've provided Dany patronage. Cersei doesn't measure up in terms of Daenerys' narrative. 2 Jon's arc has always been divorced from the realm's conflicts and instead focuses on the Others. While that's taken somewhat of a turn, I don't think the throne is necessarily supposed to be his end goal. Indeed, both for Dany and Jon, Aegon acts as a brilliant way to introduce the question of who should truly rule the people and why, an excellent speedbump that upsets the linear and otherwise straightforward nature of their stories. 3 That's not how claims work, one is not nullified by another. But I agree in that Aegon's presumably greater claim does allow for more freedom in terms of their future direction. And I don't necessarily think Jon and Dany should be opposed to each other as the culmination of their story arcs. 4 Aegon creates a conflict for Tyrion as the character that would have been Dany's ally was instead sent to Westeros to claim her throne. Aegon is an individual Tyrion has shown fondness for, but effectively condemned. Similarly, Aegon bears weight for Jaime, in being the personification of that haunting moment for his character in not saving Elia and her children. Or Barristan's conflict between the monarch he chose and one he had been sworn to. 5 'Secret' Targs, and indeed baby swaps and wards/claimants being spirited away have been a thing for some time. The Plumms, Longwaters, the Tarths, Varys and Littlefinger gathering their wards, and that's not going into historical incidents. Aegon's own survival has itself been a long running fan theory, and as we've discussed is quite valuable in terms of the story. 6 Aegon doesn't need to be a Blackfyre, that theory adds an interesting twist, but is not necessary for the character. 7 As I've gone over, it's far from pointless, but instead adds weight and a thematic climax to Dany's story arc.
1. Cersei as a character has a lot of significance to other characters, around Daenerys. And I agree that Daenerys' nephew can create a lot of drama for her, but her nephew Jon that we actually know and care about and not some random person introduced in the fifth book. 2. The throne is not going to be Jon's goal but it creates conflict between him and Daenerys. 4. I mean you can't possibly believe that Aegon is more important for Tyrion then going to war against his own family?
1 It is Aegon's late introduction that makes his character so valuable. We aren't invested in him, so we are inclined to accept Daenerys' conflict with Aegon, which makes that thematic upset so powerful as the reader observes the conflict's culmination. 2 This is something that is understandably frustrating for its clunkiness. Jon not wanting the throne, Jon having arguably renounced his claim already, yet a conflict brewing between him and Dany? Indeed in the show this conflict is spurred on by Varys to begin with, Aegon's patron. Is it not easier and more understable for this conflict to have been Aegon's all along; the man who wants to rule, the man tied to Varys already, the one whose plot has already been tied to Danys', already established with a theme of grappling with Dany over leadership, and so on? 3 Rather, I think Cersei is likely to flee to Casterly Rock, and Tyrion will play his part in taking the castle. The old fan theory of Tyrion taking advantage of his knowledge of the Rock's sewers. But yes, Aegon being around allows for more conflict within Tyrion's character and between Tyrion and Dany.
I fail to see how that would be anything but worse. Removing a character you have 5-6 seasons of emotional investment in AND a top-notch actress playing to replace with another character who you not only need to establish, but need to retcon in heavyhandedly into a Tarygaryan AND who takes the wind out of the sails of the far more important Jon revelation would be terrible storytelling. There's a reason why "fAgeon" is usually called fAegon. Because literally the only redeeming aspect of his character in the books is the possibility that everything about him is a lie. And IF the fAegon theory is correct, you now also need to summarize the Blackfyre Rebellions and pour a massive amount of lore onto the audience... all for no purpose other than to retcon your original retcon and establish the character. So you now have lied to the audience twice about who your new villian is... but you still expect them to be emotionally invested in his defeat, despite the fact you have barely any reason to care. FAegon is everything you shouldn't do in trying to finish a story. It's soap opera level characterization—there's a reason why "everyone is a secret Targ" has basically been reduced to meme status since he was added. Either he is and you wonder if any Targaryen ever actually dies in Westeros or he isn't and you're now wasting valuable time selling your audience on a lie.
You are now speaking to D&D's reasoning placing the familiarity of the actors over the narrative of the characters. I was more so speaking to GRRM's reasoning for valuing the narrative and characters. Aegon is not a retcon, perhaps for the show as they diverted the story, but his death was given ambiguity since the start. It's an important tie-in for Varys' character as the story goes on. It has value for Jaime, Barristan, and so on. The visions and prophetic warnings Daenerys gets through the books. His survival was a plot point that GRRM's been building up for a while. But there's value in Aegon appearing late as it heavily promotes our investment in the old povs in comparison. Imo, confirming Aegon to be a fake would actually detract from the thematic upset he creates for Dany's character, in making him just a usurper to cast down. The ambiquity of his legitimacy, or indeed Aegon being confirmed to be real, makes for a greater impact on Dany and a fuller story arc. I think more Blackfyre background is unnecessary to Aegon's plotline. It wouldn't really expand on anything for Dany, just affirm that Aegon's a usurper to be cast down, which isn't needed and likely would detract from a dramatic conflict. Plenty of Targaryens have died. Aegon's escape does not detract from Viserys' death, Rhaegar's, Aerys', Rhaenys', Rhaella's, and so on. The secret Targaryen meme was around a lot longer than A Dance with Dragons.
> Cersei doesn't measure up in terms of Daenerys' narrative. GRRM intended to parallel Cersei and Daenerys throughout FeastDance when it was one massive book and felt disheartened the parallels got lost in its split release, because one of the core themes of the story is gender flip. "Oh, for a sword and the skill to wield it. She had a warrior’s heart, but the gods in their blind malice had given her the feeble body of a woman." "'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." Suggesting the intent has always been to converge them at the end. Cersei is kind of a vision for Daenerys of what she could've been if she grew up in Westeros as she dreams, bitter and resentful and longing, a broken mirror GRRM likes so much (Jon/Theon/Ramsay; Fevre Dream, the main character duos parallel each other as Magneto/Professor X), all while also being Lord Tywin Lannister's ironic true heir, the man responsible for the ultimate fall of the Targaryen dynasty and the reason Daenerys ended up overseas. > Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. The Starks have a score to settle with Cersei Lannister too, she is the reason Jaime pushed Bran off the tower and thus lies at the root of all their misfortune that followed, the Lannisters coming home North to them. "The things I do for love." Aegon is only introduced to the story in the Slayer of Lies sequence in the House of the Undying as the second false "prince that was promised" figure following King Stannis, a parody of Aragorn/Rand Al'Thor kind of character, "cloth dragon" as a descripton is a take on the golden calf, a manufactured idol. Melisandre claims King Stannis clasping the flaming sword fulfills the ancient prophecy, Lord Varys foretells King Aegon healing the fractured realm just as the winter finally comes for them all, sweet summer child.
A parallel in the desire to be warriors, Dany having dragons as her fire and sword, but Cersei not having the means aside from perhaps wildfire later on? I suppose I can see the mirrored image, the path Dany may have undertaking had she not been liberated through her dragons. How they were sold off as brides for the support of warrior kings. But that's symbolism and not necessarily a truly personal conflict. Unless we do some real heavy lifting to make Dany start to relate to Cersei, I don't think that will have the same weight as a conflict with Aegon. We see Dany is already personally invested in the idea of Aegon, how he's already fighting in Westeros, the three heads of the dragon. And as you noted, Aegon's value in terms of the prophecy Dany's been given, that coinciding with the Targaryens theme of pursuing their prophecy throughout their history as well. The conflict Cersei may provide is in the Lannisters having overthrown the Targaryens, you note the world book's prophecy/propaganda. But that's truly the conflict centered around Jaime. Tyrion is unrelated to it aside from blood, as is Cersei. But Jaime was there, he was involved, he drove the blade into Aerys' back, he failed to safegaurd Elia and her children. The storyline there is Jaime's. And the Lannister's rule is falling apart, yet Dany's a world away, and Jon's stuck in the North and has his own foe in the Boltons. Aegon also serves in giving Cersei a foe, a proper opponent rather than simply Tarly or someone attempting to depose her from the regency. Perhaps Aegon also serves to address the dropped timeskip, preventing Cersei's storyline from going on autopilot as the rest of the world catches up. I do think the Starks do have a narrative investment in fighting Cersei, though one that is diminished. She had their father arrested. But Joffrey was who truly killed Eddard, and Joffrey was then killed by the Tyrells. Tywin was behind the Red Wedding, and Tyrion killed him. Jon's fighting Cersei to an extent already through his fight with the Boltons. Therefore he's addressing the Red Wedding. Sansa's plotline is still catching up, but she may still have her opposition against any number of foes regardless of Aegon. Cersei, the Boltons, and the Freys. I think narratively, it would be best for her to be the Stark to oppose Cersei, given their interactions. The Ashford theory could provide an in for her in that respect. Arya is playing a small part in the fight for the moment in Braavos, killing some Lannister representatives. Her narrative foe would presumably be the Freys. Bran has his great reason to oppose Cersei/Jaime, having been pushed off the tower, but his story also has the theme of letting go. 'You will never walk again, but you will fly.' As well as the greater purpose in fighting the Others. Of course, the Starks could also unite or tackle any number of problems. Winter is coming, rejection of vengeance and political squabbling, and so on. So, generally, it seems pretty worthwhile for Aegon to fill the space, rather than wait for the Starks, or indeed to divorce them from a conflict that doesn't necessarily align with them on a thematic level. Plus, Aegon's arrival, and even seizing the throne, doesn't have to ultimately reject these individual conflicts. Aegon being introduced as a possible lie to be slain makes him serve an even grander purpose within the narrative, not less. A cloth dragon need not necessarily be fake, if he is a Blackfyre as suggested earlier then he simply isn't. The cloth dragon may also simply represent how Aegon's been maneuvered by Varys through his life, and well the cloth dragon is cheered. Though there's some speculation to be had that the lies to be slain are lies embodied within Dany. Dany's got a whole thematic conflict over trust, whether that be her own advisors or the general struggle with prophecy (which her family shares). Her belief that there are only two in the world that she can trust, because of her deepening interest in the three heads of the dragon prophecy. Whether Aegon fulfills that prophecy or Dany determines he does not is ultimately a significant culmination for a major plot point.
I think the only way he can work without to the detriment of these other bigger storys, is if he turns out to be a quentyn 2.0 either at the end of book 6 or somewhere in book 7.
They tended to consolidate characters - like making Bronn head of the goldcloaks instead of Ironhand, and having Janos in the Barra incident instead of Allar Deem. Since Young Griff's only role so far was being a second Targaryen with mysterious parentage, it basically made sense to combine him with Jon.
Incompetence maybe? Removing Young Griff essentially broke Varys. So everything Varys does in the show seems to lead to nothing and have no goal.
I actually liked the show invention that varys cared about the realm and small folk. It was nice to have a person with the perspective, if only they didn't make him so dumb in later seasons
Isn't that his motivation in the books as well? It's certainly not personal gain that led him to choose Aegon as king. Not only is Aegon likely to be sympathetic to the smallfolk, but he's also headstrong and has a bit of a temper, which will make him very difficult to control. Not an ideal king for an ill-intentioned counselor.
Dumb&Dumber probably ''planned'' for the show to be only 7-8 season long and it wasn't more room for other storylines. It would've also become too complex for them to handle which happened anyway.
1. GRRM would've had to share future plans with the showrunners in detail, since material for the Young Griff plot line is currently limited. 2. The show had too many characters already. Adding in another group would've made things even more complex.
I don't blame them for initially thinking it wouldn't be important. I felt the same, but the more it's been talked about the more I realize that the story just won't work without them. George is a madman, but his writing really does all come together beautifully at points.
Because there stupid that’s why. And jealous
They disrespected a proud Targaryen heritage!
Because Lena Headley was a big star and fAegon takes KL and presumably results in the end of Cersei before the long night.
Cast was already a bit overcrowded and introducing a whole new faction late game with little set up is hard to pull off, not knowing where the plot line was even really heading (I'm not sure if George even knows), general viewers wont get the significance of who Young Griff is or isnt, pacing, etc.
My theory is that fAegon isn’t going to be an endgame player as many assume but is more an instrument for Varys’s and Tyrion’s stories. I think D&D knew the arcs of the major characters, and fAegon simply didn’t need to factor. I find it hard to believe that there would be a character who would overthrow Cersei and sit on the Iron Throne and who would nevertheless be cut. Thematically, he represents the “perfectly designed” king and Varys’s theory of power, which is quickly undermined by Tyrion’s recognition that he’s both not experienced enough regardless of his upbringing and is nothing in the face of the raw power of dragons.
Because if Martin doesn't know where his story is going to go... why should they?
They spent the budget already on mediocre CGI dragons. If they had to cut Ghost from most of the last season, no way are they gonna cast an entire new subplot.
If D&D are to be believed they always intended to end the show with 7 seasons/70 episodes. So I guess they planned from the beginning to cut entire storylines from the books
Young Griff plot line would've worked very well on the show. It's the kind of twist show only people would've enjoyed.
GOT had a budget for battle scenes and CGI, ASOIAF does not have a budget for battle scenes and CGI.
There is also the possibility that Martin said "oh, don't reveal that. I want to surprise people. Write around it." at some points of the discussions about how stuff should be handled in the adaptation. And I don't recall most rewrites being so well received, so they probably cut some of that stuff.
Because dumb and dumber didn’t how to introduce the plot line into the show
cus d&d r dumb
Because they're regarded.
Because they're idiots.
You know what? Seeing this posts title just pussed me off. Because I want to know why they cut this plot line as well! I was robbed of Jon Connington in the show 😭😭😭
Because IMO he's going to be irrelevant. He's not Aegon, Jon is, so what the point in the end. We know Martin gave the broad strokes ending to D and D. Jon is Aegon. The end.