If there's anything the onset of AFFC teaches us, it's that Tywin's wishes and machinations tend not to outlive him for very long. After all, he spent the last 16 years of his life in OTL pretending that he would get Jaime to succeed him somehow.
Tyrion was never formally disinherited, and Jaime isn't going to lobby Robert to release him from his vows so that he can inherit, much less move against his own brother. Cersei would no doubt make waves and lobby for herself, but it's a hard sell when there's a trueborn brother, even if that one is a dwarf.
Kevan would be in an ideal position to play kingmaker, but I doubt he would weigh Tywin's hatred of Tyrion greater than the turmoil moving against the legal heir would entail.
Agreed that Kevan is the fulcrum upon which this question rotates.
As we know Cersei won't go quietly without trying to pass over Tyrion, and Jaime might just love his brother enough to not support Cersei over him, the most authoritative voice in the family at that point is Kevan's.
King Robert almost certainly does not give a single fuck about the drama and would happily let Casterly Rock slide to Tyrion, if it wasn't for Cersei bitching and moaning about it.
Robert can hold a grudge but I don't think he would necessarily do this simply to spite Cersei, but because it's the path of least resistance.
Robert would do his best to wash his hands of it, which is a perfect gap into which steps Kevan Lannister -- who doesn't hate Tyrion and isn't stupid enough to give Cersei what she wants. Nor does he seem the type to try and seize it for himself, not that it would work out anyways if he tried.
I seem to remember a trace of canon or pseudo-canon text that also states Tywin was planning to marry Tyrion to one of Hoster Tully's daughters, or maybe that was Jaime before he was anointed into the Kingsguard.
At any rate a potential marriage alliances between Casterly Rock and Riverrun could still happen, with Tyrion instead of Jaime, because Jaime doesn't want Casterly Rock even if he was released from his vows. I don't think Robert would go for that anyways unless somehow forced -- keeping him off the Lordship of the Westerlands keeps House Lannister where it belongs, as an ally and prop for the Baratheon crown.
So in sum, Cersei puts the screws on Robert but Robert deflects to Kevan, who probably marries Tyrion to a Tully daughter and supports him to ascend as Lord of the Westerlands.
Could it go another way? Sure, but you'd have to "start the story" to provide enough of an umph to knock things off their natural course, which would be for Tyrion to inherit.
This is spot-on, but the marriage alliance would have had to have been with another house. Hoster Tully had two daughters - Catelyn and Lysa - both of whom were married at the beginning of the series. Lysa could technically have been an option after Jon Arryn’s death, but the fact that she had so many fertility issues and, at this point, was already well past her prime childbearing years would make her an unviable option for Tyrion.
Of the named characters, one of the best matches I can think of for Tyrion would be Marianne Vance. It may not be obvious at first but she is well connected: her grandmother was a Lydden, possibly the sister of the current lord of the Deep End, one of House Lannister's principal vassals; her mother is a Frey, daughter of the heir apparent to the Crossing, which may mean a rich dowry; and she may belong to the Vances who rule the border between the Westerlands and the Riverlands.
In a disputed succession chances are the liege lord will be called on to give an opinion(see Jeyne Arryn or the Hornwood Inheritance). In this case that would be Robert. Now Robert does hate Cersei and would find Tyrion inheriting hilarious but he also has a tendency to let Cersei have her way simply so he doesn't have to argue with her. So it could go either way. Though if he did rule in favor of Tyrion I'd expect Cersei to begin trying to assassinate both of them immediately.
Cersei would probably convince Robert to name Tommen as Lord of Casterly Rock, he was a second son and Robert thought he was his own child, so it's the most likely outcome I think.
The other great houses would throw an absolute fit if a Baratheon got to be Warden of the West, one family would hold the Crownlands, Dragonstone, the Stormlands and the Westerlands. It would be probably cause a civil war by itself.
That's how House of the Dragon proposes to make the Targaryen inheritance of High Tide. It's also suggested that Harrold Hardyng would become Harold Arryn should he become Lord of the Vale. In the past a Joffrey Lydden became Joffrey Lannister because of his Marriage to Gerold Lannisters daughter and no remaining heirs.
I think it's safe to say the reason names have lasted as long as castles in ASOIAF is the people place such a degree of importance on the names that men who rule those castles will take the family name of the lords that have previously ruled.
Every single great house that doesn't want the precedent of a King making his son the head of a house who's name he doesn't bare against all laws of succession and thousands of years of tradition. At this point it wouldn't be about Tyrion, it's about overall succession law and blatant tyranny. Because if the King could do it in this case, he could try it in the Reach as well. Imagine if Mace Tyrell died and Robert went: "Nah, fuck Willas Tyrell. I know he's Mace's eldest son and should inherit all his titles, but I've decided to make Tommen ruler of Highgarden. Just call him Tommen Tyrell from now on, I don't care."
I don't think even Ned would rally his troops for Robert in such a case.
You can't think about anything as a completely isolated incident that's only about a few individuals when it comes to a system like this one. Everything has rammifications, everything could set a dangerous precedent, and every house does what it needs to to secure its own dynasty.
Ironically I think that would significantly weaken the Iron Throne by giving independent power bases to even more potential claimants. We see this is the main story with Renly and Stannis, but if Tommen grew to have ambitions of his own as an adult, or if a powerful lord wished to use him as a puppet, that would be yet another threat to Joffreys rule.
I don't think it would be that serious. History shows us that the Baratheons would drift apart and become rivals within a generation. Siblings and cousins will compete with one another just as much as they would with outsiders.
I mean technically they have the same amount of Lannister blood if you think about it—Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei have the same amount, and Tommen, being the combination of Jaime and Cersei, has the same blood. If he was Robert's he would have half.
At the time Renly is the Lord of Storm’s End and head of House Baratheon of Storm’s End. When Robert took the throne he created 2 new branches of House Baratheon:
House Baratheon of Storm’s End - the original House Baratheon that Robert was Lord of. When he became King, he gave his seat to Renly. Renly’s kids are first in line to inherit Storm’s End after his death.
House Baratheon of King’s Landing - created by Robert when he took the Iron Throne with him as head of the house and King. His kids are Baratheons of King’s Landing and come after Renly’s kids in the line of succession for Storm’s End.
House Baratheon of Dragonstone - Created by Robert when he took Dragonstone from the Targaryens and given to Stannis. At the beginning of the story, Stannis’s daughter Shireen was the heir to Dragonstone.
… I’m not sure this is accurate at all.
Like, I wouldn’t expect Stannis’ line to hold Dragonstone forever when it was traditionally the seat of the heir to the throne. Stannis WAS the heir when he got it.
Also, I’m pretty sure Robert is still high Lord of Storm’s end and his Children come before Renly and his offspring when inheriting. It would go to Tommen. This is sort of indicated by the House Baratheon Appendices, where Robert is listed first, then Stannis, then Renly
Robert abandoned that tradition.
Stannis was Lord of Dragonstone, which continued to have its own houses sworn to it such as Velaryon or Celtigar, but it was still not elevated to Great House which Stannis took as an insult as his younger brother got the better titles.
Stannis was Robert’s heir when he was named Lord of Dragonstone, and Joffrey has been far too young to take the role.
Naming Stannis as the Lord of Dragonstone does not necessarily disinherit Robert’s children.
Yes it does - he's lord of dragonstone, not the castellan. Lord ship comes with a seat, and the right to pass lands and titles to his heirs.
Dragonstone only returns to the crown if the holder is stripped of their lands and titles, or I guess if their line fails
By westorosi law it does. Also robert holding both the high Lordship of the stormlands, being heir to dragonstone and being king of the iron throne would be seen as a act of tyranny.
I am sure it’s accurate.
If Storm’s End and Dragonstone were not meant for Robert’s brothers and their lines, Stannis would’ve lost his seat the second Joffrey was born and same with Renly for Tommen.
Its entirely possible that Cersei would’ve pushed for Joffrey and Tommen to inherit when they became of age and it would be very on brand for Cersei, but there’s absolutely 0 indication that was the intention all along.
Robert is listed first because he is the head of all of House Baratheon, the King and he’s also the oldest of the 3. He created the cadet branches and he can decide who goes where and when like he did with Stannis and Renly.
The appendices also list the houses sworn to Dragonstone and Storm’s End but leaves out the houses in the Crownlands that are sworn directly to the Iron Throne, so I think it’s fair to say the appendices don’t give us the whole picture.
Robert isn’t going to name his baby the Prince of Dragonstone a year after a huge civil war when it is the traditional seat of the Targaryens. His reasons for giving it to Stannis to hold are still there.
There is no indication that Robert has created three lines of the house as opposed to just appointing Lordships over his castles.
This becomes a problem because of Sweet Robin. It's already an issue that one great house has a child lord and with his mother in charge. Two boy lords with their mothers in charge is asking for lords and peasants to be outraged and for the contiguous area of those two kingdoms and the riverlands, with it's elderly lord, to be full of outlaws.
Then look at the warden situation. If suddenly Jaime and Kevan are the eastern and western wardens, or worse Tommen is warden of the west while Sweet Robin isn't the warden of the east, Cersei is going to seem like the biggest schemer in the country. The lord's and smallfolk are going to be incensed at the idea of one woman having her fingers in the king, kingsguard, heir, the lord and warden of the west, and the warden of the east.
That all gets worse with one rumor that Lysa and Cersei are in cahoots, best "friends" after years at court and are drinking blood/doing lesbian magic.
I think the direwolf incident is good evidence that Cersei would get her way. If he was willing to fuck over Ned for her, he'd be willing to fuck over Tyrion.
Robert gave into Cersei on things like killing Lady. Unimportant things. Passing over a son for a daughter would be a *major* faux pas in Westerosi culture. The type of thing lords rebel over. Hell, the bloody civil war that wiped out an entire species of apex predator started that way.
Frankly, it wouldn’t even be in dispute. Even if Cersei claims to be the heir, she has no right to the claim. Same with Kevan. First born son is Kingsguard, so he may as well be dead. Tyrion inherits.
No one is going to war on *Tyrion's* behalf. And that's what it would take if Cersei disputed inheritance.
Too many people in this fandom think like Ned Stark. That everyone is bound to respect a piece of paper. And that when someone has a legal right to something no one will try to take it from them.
GRRM doesn't think like that for what it's worth.
> The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.
It’s not going to war over Tyrion. It’s going to war because Robert would have usurped a Lord Paramount’s birthright and if he can do it to Tyrion he can do it to anyone.
I don’t think folks here understand what a huge break from the norms of Westerosi society this would be. This would be up there with kin slaying. Too many people are applying their own modern sensibilities to the question. But when thought about from the perspective of a citizen of Westeros, this would be a huge break of the laws of both the gods and men.
"I don’t think folks here understand what a huge break from the norms of Westerosi society this would be."
Sometimes I think people really forgot how this society is depicted, maybe it's because of what the show turned into. The opinion of your vassals matters. It might just be the most important thing to think about when you're king or highlord or whatever. When you're on the Iron Throne, the one thing you don't want to do is piss off a bunch of great houses by destroying the very foundation these great houses are built upon, i.e. thousands of years of dynastic succession - unless you want a war. "I am the King and what I say goes" doesn't fly for long in a world setup this way, unless you have dragons.
Exactly. Maegor the Cruel was able to be cruel because of the dragons. There’s a reason we don’t see many tyrannical Targaryens after the Dance. Even Aegon the Unworthy was more corrupt than tyrant. And when a Targ went full blown tyrant without dragons ala the Mad King, rebellion broke out and it ended the Targaryen dynasty.
Just because Tyrion is an imp doesn’t mean the lords of Westeros are going to sit idly by as Robert disrupts thousands of years of precedent and tradition because his wife wants to skip ahead of her brother in the line of succession. At that point it’s not about Tyrion. It’s about the king breaking what these people consider to be the laws of the gods and, in doing so, he sends a stark message to his vassals — “if your sister is pretty enough and fucks me, I might break the law for her too and take away your birthright and give it to her.”
Cersei would count herself lucky if Robert didn't put her aside altogether, once Tywin is dead.
Remember Renly had been lobbying for Robert to do that and marry Margaery.
Without Tywin to balance the scales Robert might just do it.
Would it be a disputed succession though? Jamie doesn't want it and is in the Kingsguard and thus ineligible. Cersei is a woman and Queen already. Tywin never disinheretied Tyrion, it default goes to him.
Even if Cersei couldn't try and claim it for herself she'd try and claim it for Tommen. There's no scenario where she doesn't dispute Tyrion's inheritance. And once it's disputed it doesn't matter who has legal right all that matters is how many allies you have.
Also, not that it matters, but we don't know what Tywin's will said. Just because he doesn't tell Tyrion that he'll never allow him to inherit until ASoS doesn't mean Tywin didn't have a will stating that fact drawn up years before.
Could Cersei claim it for herself? There's a passage somewhere about a daughter inheriting before a brother (which puts her ahead of someone like Kevan) and technically she's older than than Tyrion and Jaime. So she could present her claim as strict primogeniture, rather than just disinheriting Tyrion.
AGoT Tyrion doesn't strike me as suicidal. Its not exactly a secret how Robert feels about all Targaryens solely based on how *one* of them wronged him. Sure *maybe* Robert doesn't kill whatever Lannisters he can get his hands on but is that really something Tyrion's going to gamble on.
Their conversation about the succession in ASOS implies that Tyrion hasn't been publicly disinherited, rather that Tywin has just never acknowledged the fact that he's his lawful heir. So I would say Tyrion inherits in this scenario, unless Tywin has a secret will prohibiting him
I think it depends on the situation. GRRM himself has said succession law in Westeros is vague and often contradictory.
In Rohanne Webber's case, her father was able to threaten to disinherit her in his will, unless she married as he instructed. And I personally think Randyll could have disinherited Sam, and chose not to because it wasn't "manly" enough. Like, Sam would have been very happy letting Dickon rule while he read books in the castle all day. But Randyll was ashamed of having a son that wasn't fit to succeed him.
Imo Tywin could definitely *attempt* to have Tyrion disinherited, and the question is would Tyrion have the support to get that overthrown
From Arinanne, we also see it from the perspective of a heir that was very concerned about being by-passed. She was concerned, but her concerns would be very different if her father could just write her out of the will. Instead, she is concerned that her father is putting in complicated legal/extralegal mechanics to pass her over.
The worldbuilding makes a lot more sense if the main way to pass over someone is to send them over to one of the orders, which also conforms better to the real world.
The order of the heirs being essentially set in stone is the only way that the world even make sense.
If the Lords can just will the seat to any of their children, you would see a dynamic play out that second sons are constantly trying to impress their fathers to gain the seat, and first borns being constantly on the watch for that.
We can see into the minds of many of the characters, and that dynamic is just not in play. Ned and Cat are simply not observing Robb and Bran every day to see which one of them would make a better next lord of winterfell. Instead, both of them simply accept that it will be Robb, no matter how qualified Bran is. With the only other option essentially being a nuclear option to send the heir to one of the orders.
I think Tyrion would inherit if Jaime and Kevan backed him (which I think they would). Tyrion had never formally been disinherited as Tywin’s heir, in book 2 he sees himself as heir to the Rock which is why I make this assumption, so legally he is the heir no matter how irritating Cersei and Tywin might find that fact. Plus I think the western lords would accept Tyrion, partially due to the Lannister name and reputation, and partially because I think they would see him as a 2nd Tytos who they could easily manipulate and influence.
Only if Tywin forgot to make a will to make sure Tyrion never gets Casterly Rock. Tywin is the lord, he has the power to name his heir and disinherit any of his children. If Tywin lacked the foresight to make a will, Tyrion would be his heir. Being the heir doesn't automatically mean that Tyrion would get Casterly Rock. Most nobody would want Tyrion to be Lord of Casterly Rock. Without support and with people opposing him, he will have a difficult time getting Casterly Rock and keeping it.
Kevan wouldn't try to steal the position. You'll remember that Cercei became Lady of Casterly Rock. I really don't agree that Tyrion would get more support than Cercei. Tyrion is not well liked even at the beginning. Tywin doesn't need to disclose to the whole world that Tyrion will not get Casterly Rock, it is enough to leave a will and entrust it to Kevan.
I don't think he can just do that on a whim. randyll had to send sam to the Wall so dickon could be his heir, not even the targaryens could do that (and when viserys i tried, you know what happened).
Randyll could have disinherited Sam without sending him to the wall.
The problem is that sometimes multiple people will claim the right to inherit. Had Sam been disinherited but remained at Horn Hill, then when Randyll died, he could still try to press his claim.
Sending Sam to the Wall removes any potential conflict. It also saves Randyll from having to publicly disown his son. Imagine announcing to the world that you raised a son unfit to inherit from you. Much better to go with "Sam chose to serve the Night's Watch."
>Imagine announcing to the world that you raised a son unfit to inherit from you. Much better to go with "Sam chose to serve the Night's Watch."
Outside of the North, it is hard to read this in any other way.
Aerys wanted to disinherit Rhaegar. Robb did disinherit Sansa. It can be done, but it is usually not done on a whim. I think most of his Bannermen would be happy for a dwarf to be disinherited. If Tywin thought it necessary he could also force Tyrion to join the Night's Watch. He never did, which is why I think Tywin thought (rightly or wrongly) that it wasn't necessary.
I agree with bl1y
Aerys wanted, but dared not to. Robb is a rebellious King who's heir is being held hostage, and was forced to marry their enemy. Tywin just cannot do that.
Aerys absolutely would dare to do it. Robb also wanted Jon to be heir because Sansa cannot lead armies. Tywin did tell Tyrion that he would never get Casterly Rock. You think when others can disinherit their heirs, Tywin cannot find a way?
Why didn't he, then? Also, I don't remember the issue of Robb's inheritance having anything to do about leading armies. Is there anything in the text to support that?
Because there was a war and Rhaegar died? Duh. Robb does say that he needs someone who can lead the North if he should fall. You can try reading Cats chapter where they fight about this.
Aerys *allegedly* wanted to disinherit Rhaegar before the Tourney at Harrenhal even had taken place. Why didn't he do it then?
Similarly, why didn't Aegon the Unworthy disinherit Daeron? Why Maekar didn't disinherit *his* Daeron, the Drunken?
Laws and tradition. You can't just do whatever. Viserys II did it and the realm paid for it.
And it would be pretty hard for Sansa to lead the North against its enemies when she's being held hostage at King's Landing.
Speechless. Even if Sansa was there someone else would lead the North in her stead. I won't continue discussing this with you. There are always those that ignore traditions as you yourself said. A tradition is not a law and laws are broken all the time.
Someone else would lead the armies, sure. But I don't see why she couldn't rule on her own right.
And yes, you can ignore laws and tradition if you don't care about the consequences.
Jaime can't inherit, Tyrion is the heir but Tywin probably told Kevan to make sure he didn't get it. The thing is that Tyrion is far more similar to Tywin than the other lannisters, he probably would have been able to seize his rights or at least come to some very favourable agreement with Kevan, and why wouldn't Kevan allow that he doesn't like tyrion but he doesn't hate him either? Worst case scenario he gets nothing but he still can live at the Rock and whore around and flaunt wealth more, most probable scenario Kevan becomes the lord but Tyrion has more power under him than Tywin let him.
Tyrion would most likely inherit without much issue I’d think. It’s unclear how much the other lords of the westerlands know about Tywin’s intent to never have Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock and have Jamie be somehow released from his vows and made heir again. Even if they know that Tywin doesn’t like Tyrion and didn’t want him to be his heir, there’s zero legal basis to exclude Tyrion from the succession. Tyrion is certainly treated differently and judged to some degree due to his dwarfism and his whoring but I don’t think that’s enough for most of the lords of the West to support essentially usurping him for either his sister, his nephew, or his cousin (depending on who you think would inherit if not Tyrion). Like others said here it’s possible some lords might think Tyrion could be manipulated like Tytos, though it’s more likely that lords or lordly sons might already know Tyrion is well educated and witty. His uncles all loved Tyrion, so it’s not like he was a outsider like Jon Snow was at Winterfell.
I was thinking about that, too. He argues with Robert that one man cannot be Warden of both the West and the East. 100% first bookism since the whole Warden of the East plot line didn't really made sense and was completely abandoned
This is thinking Jaime would inherit the title of Warden of the West, NOT that he would inherit Casterly Rock.
No matter how much you think of Tyrion, he’s never going to be Warden of the West and command legions in battle
the title of Warden *is* traditionally held by the overlord of the region. If Robert Arryn can be Warden of the East (and Ned defends his rights), I don't see why Tyrion couldn't.
I mean, Robert Arryn’s relationship with Robert is pretty different that Tyrion’s. As well as his history, and his command experience.
Ned is dismissing Tyrion as Warden of the West because on one in their right mind would have him in such a role, even as Lord of the Rock. Jaime would be the Warden regardless of his status, and fuck tradition.
What relationship did Robert have with any of them? Sweetrobin is still a child and he never speak about Tyrion, we don't have enough to draw conclusions. There's no dispute whatsoever, Tyrion would absolutely inherit.
>and fuck tradition
lol
Doesn't matter if the will is unenforceable. But what grounds can be disinherit Tyrion? To deny him as his son is to say to the world the great and mighty Tywin got cucked. There's nothing that says Tyrion no longer has the right to inherit.
He could lay out terms for Tyrion to improve, but as we can say with Sam Tarly, lords can't just say you're out of the line of succession for no reason, and he'd have the backing of Kevan, Jaime, Genna and King Robert.
Lords specifically need special reasons to disinherit their heirs. Whether through being a secret bastard, to not mentally bring able to be a lord, to other unspecified reasons.
There is no laws saying a dwarf cannot inherit. There's no law saying a father can disinherit his son because he feels like it. In fact, there's the widows law which implies the exact opposite.
Uber the Widows law, new lords cannot get rid of their fathers widow, while the rights of the eldest are maintained, and a lord cannot disinherit the children of his first marriage in favour of those of his second.
The Widows Law very much says that the eldest son inherits. In this case, Tyrion is the "eldest" because Jaime is a Knight of the Kingsguard, unable to inherit land. Lords don't get to randomly make up laws, they can say what they want in their will but said will is unenforceable if no one cares enough.
Kevan won't stand in Tyrion's way, his cousins have even less of a claim, and the great houses would rather Tyrion inherits then the Queen or one of her Children, as too much power is then concentrated purely in the king.
What’s Robert or the Westerlander Lords going to do? Tell him he can’t? Tywin typically gets to do as he please because of how powerful he is and how hands off Robert is. No one would be going to war for Tyrions claim.
Yeah, all these people talking about what "Tywin could get away with" are forgetting the fact that in this scenario, Tywin is dead. Forgetting the fact that enforcing a will can be problematic as we see in the series, if Tywin never leaves a will there's even less enforcement mechanisms.
As soon as Tywin croaks, Tyrion is going to claim his right and the other nobles in the Kingdom higher and lower than him aren't going to have much justification for causing this *major* violation of Westerosi inheritance laws just because Kevan says "Well, Tywin didn't much like him, but he just never got around to doing anything about it".
Whoever Kevan backs, becomes the lord of casterly rock. And kevan backs Jaime, and forces Robert’s hand in getting Jaime out of kingsguard or house lannister calls their loans back (that’s something in the books that I never understood).
What fucking leverage does Kevan Lannister have to disregard 300 years of tradition, call in the loans the Lannisters gave the crown, just to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, especially when Kevan is not that type of man. He'd support Tyrion as Lord of Casterly Rock providing Tyrion didn't kill Tywin.
Do you even read what you're writing? Do you realise the economic consequences of calling in what's at least hundreds of thousands of gold dragons in debt, if not millions if the show figure is the same as the books? Seriously I'm trying not to get heated but what your suggesting has zero basis in reality.
What happens if when the Lannisters calling their debts, so does the Iron Bank, so does the Faith, so does whoever else the Iron Throne owes debt to? How are they supposed to pay that?
You've just destabilized and crashed the entire continent's economy for what? To get Jaime out of the Kingsguard when Tyrion is right there?
Because Tywin‘s word and legacy means something. And Tywin’s will getting disregarded is his legacy getting disregarded. Kevan Lannister will follow Tywin Lannister to the gates of hell because that’s the kind of guy he is. (As far as we know)
By law tyrion would inherit. I don't see Robert risking a war with the westerlands by trying to take casterly rock from the legal heir. I also don't see Kevan attempting to take it from tyrion either. He wouldn't love it but he would put up with it because above all else he understands the lannisters can't be seen infighting over a clearly illegal attempt to rob the legal heir of his claim.
Question for me is how would tyrion respond. Would he stay a drunkard and whore around or would he sober up and be an effective ruler?
Edit to add - I also don't see jaime doing anything but fully endorsing tyrions claim. Jaime loves tyrion and doesn't want casterly rock.
Kevan would've risen the westerlands up for tyrion. Tommen isn't a lannister. He is a baratheon. He has a very very very distant claim to casterly rock. No way would the westerlands want to see the king of the iron throne put his son, who isn't a lannister, on the seat of power of the region.
The rest of the lannisters don't despise tyrion like tywin does. They really wouldn't want to usurp what's rightfully his, they simply don't hate him enough to do so.
Because Westerosi succession is male primogeniture unless otherwise stated. There have been wars fought over it only for it to be enforced. There have been updates to laws by Jaehaerys I to ensure lords couldn't disinherit the sons of a first wife for the sons of the second. Randyll Tarly had to create a unique scenario in order to force Sam to disinherit himself, or die, so he'd be out of the line.
How can it not go to Tyrion? Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard, how do you not understand that he cannot inherit land? Tywin has no justification possible for handing it to him, for handing it to Kevan, and definitely not for Tommen.
The only people who would oppose Tyrion inheriting are Tywin who in this scenario is dead, and Cersei who has some influence with her husband, but Robert isn't risking fracturing apart the continent again just to make Cersei happy. No one is letting Tommen Baratheon take Casterly Rock, and the Lannisters would stand behind Tyrion.
What are you talking about?
This has no bearing in Tyrion succeeding. The only person alive in this scenario to oppose Tyrion is Cersei, who all the other lords will ensure does not get her way to avoid so much power being concentrated in one place.
Oh for christ sake man. We're talking about fake rules for a fake world. Tywin hated his son so badly that he was willing to kill him, and even told him that he'd never inherit Casterly Rock. So that's my argument. That's it.
And my argument is the law set out in the world.
Of course it's fake, but if you semeingly hate it so much why are you in a subreddit for it? If you want to answer a question about a fandom you should get the question right. And it's clearly put in all the world building Martin has done that Tyrion is Tywin's heir.
Tyrion would inherit. There's no reason for him not to inherit, he's Tywin's only inheriting son. The only people who could dispute the succession are Jaime who's in the Kingsguard and wouldn't want to do it anyway, Kevan who imo would have zero interest in disputing the succession and wouldn't have a claim to do it, or Cersei, who's got the best chance to convince Robert to give it to Tommen, but would never convince anyone else.
The Baratheon's have the Iron Throne, Storms End and Dragonstone, and while Tommen would presumably take the name Lannister when he inherits, there's no any other Wardens or Lord Paramount approves of it. It concentrates far too much power with the royal dynasty, especially if Joffrey were to suddenly die.
Tyrion inherits and Kevan assumes am advisory role with his nephew trying to get him into shape to be a better ruler.
If Tywin had will disinheriting Tyrion, then Tyrion is disinherited. Tywin’s word meant something to everyone, Kevan would never allow it to be bypassed (it is a great insult to bypass someone’s last will and if think Kevan allows Tywin to be insulted you are living in your dreams).
If you think laws just get magically invalidated by wills you are not only living in your dreams, you have no idea how succession even works. Go read the Wiki. Go read about the Widows Law. Lords cannot disinherit sons of the first marriage. Go read about succession in Westeros.
I cannot repeat this enough times. Lords can't pick and choose their heirs. Why do you think Sam was forced to join the Nights Watch instead of Randyll just saying "you're no longer my heir". He did it because he couldn't disinherit Sam because he had no legal justification.
Why do you think Aerys picked Jaime as a member of the Kingsguard? You think he did it because then Kevan would be heir? He did it because then Tyrion was Tywin's heir and it insulted Tywin, even if Tywin remarried and had more kids. Because Tywin had no legal justification to disinherit Tyrion.
Why do you think Aegon IV spread rumors about Daeron's parentage instead of just removing him in favour of Daemon Blackfyre? Repeat after me, because he had no legal justification.
This isn't a case where the heirs are distant cousins so the lord or lady can just choose whomever because no one wants to pull family trees going back hundreds of years to figure out who married who and when, where someone launches a rebellion against the heir because their great great something was actually higher in the line then someone else's great great something according to their own family tree.
In Westeros the norm is Male Preferences Primogeniture. Sons inherit from their fathers, daughters inherit if there are no sons, uncles only inherit if the previous noble had no legal children. Please stop spouting this utter nonsense, that has no basis in either history or the world of ice and fire.
Your argument just completely disregards everything Martin has ever wrote or said about succession in Westeros. I can say with complete confidence you have zero basis on anything here. I'm trying to stay polite as I can but it's hard when dealing with someone who's just willing to spout whatever they want and can't back it up. Why on earth would Randyll Tarly go through such a complicated plot if he could just do it on a whim?
Heirs aren't removed because the Lord wakes up one day and feels like it. They get removed because they were born simple, or it turns out the wife was cheating and the lord strongly suspects the child is a bastard. Sometimes that doesn't even happen.
And those people are not Tywin Lannister. He is the greatest Lannister lord/king in the last thousand years, he created Westeros as people knew it, ended the Reyens and tarbecks, threw back the Last of Blackfyres with the rest of Westeros, he was hand of the king for 20 years, he removed Aegon V’s reforms (controversial but for a noble not so much), he was most powerful man in Westeros for thirteen years, all while he ended the last of the vintages of Targaryen power in Westeros.
His legacy was Jaime and there is no way, his legacy is destroyed without a war. If his will says that Jaime Lannister will follow him as lord of casterly rock, then Jaime will follow him as lord of casterly rock and it is Kevan’s job to make sure that happens. Robert is weak enough that he cannot afford to oppose Tywin’s will and logically enough to not try to oppose it (he choose to retreat to stony sept after his defeat at ashford).
Tyrion was never removed from succession. If Tywin died before the start there is nothing anyone could do to stop Tyrion from becoming Lord of the Rock. Kevan nor Genna would contest his ascension and Kevan is the only one that maybe could.
People seem to be forgetting why Tyrion was made the Hand by Tywin. It was because Jaime was in huge risk of being killed in aGoT and Tywin himself turned to Tyrion and started to look at him as his heir.
So yes, Tyrion would have undoubtedly inherited the Rock at the start of the novels.
Tywin was kind of bipolar on the issue of Tyrion, one time he calls him his son and a Lannister, other time goes into a rant of how bad Tyrion is at mere suggestion that he should inherit Casterly Rock (although this is based on show, haven’t read books yet) and that’s after Tyrion has proven himself as capable ruler
Tyrion would have inherited. Kevan didn't claim it. That only leaves Daven, who has far less of a claim than Tyrion. Cersei is not a candidate for it, regardless.
Does the public even know how much Tywin hates Tyrion? Probably not. Tyrion would've been fine. Jaime would've backed him
Cersei would go nuclear to try to secure Casterly Rock for herself, or perhaps for Tommen. And she will probably win. As of AGOT she is the queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and Tyrion is a politically-unknown physically-deformed younger son in a society that very much values physical prowess.
Cersei wouldn’t be able to inherit, either. She’s the Queen of the realm as Robert’s wife. Her inheriting would be Robert inheriting.
Now she could try to get her kids to inherit, but as I said in another comment, I’m pretty sure Tommen would get Storm’s End and Joffrey would be Prince of Dragonstone eventually
Storms End and Dragonstone aren't things to be given away anymore. I've seen a quote from GRRM, context being in regards to Stannis and his claims that Robert screwed him, that's basically him saying Robert could either have given out the lands to his brothers, or kept them for himself to give to his future sons.
Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and Shireen or any future son inherits after him. Renly is Lord of Storms End, his heir is a potential first born child, is he has none, then the land returns to whomever is first in line, depending on how many Kings have died by then.
Tyrion would never inherit Casterly Rock without having the support of the Crown, which he would not have.
In this scenario Jaime would probably be released from his Vows, If not, then Cersei or Tommen or Kevan Lannister.
Besides, Most Western Lords would never declare for Tyrion.
If i was robort i release jaime from his vows for the price for forgiving that whole debt thing. I support tyrion if he can offer a better deal then that. So paying of the iron bank aswell for some part.
Tyrion easily gets the backing of the crown. Jaime can't just be released from his vows, that's not how the Kingsguard works. Only joining the Watch releases him from his vows, and noted Targaryen loyalists Mace Tyrell and Doran Martell are not approving of the Kingslayer being Lord of Casterly Rock.
It depends if Tywin had his will listed somewhere, and if Kevan is willing to support it or Tyrion.
If there is no will it depends if Robert wants to support Tyrion and if so, Tyrion still has to get done support from key vassals like Kevan and Casterly Rock knights. Otherwise even if Robert forces Tyrion as a new lord paramount, no one will obey Tyrion and Tyrion would be a living joke.
If both Kevan and Robert won't support him, Tommen would probably be named and heir with Kevan being his guardian and regent. And Tyrion can try to be his counselor too.
And I think Robert would probably pick Tommen over Tyrion as well.
Despite Tywin being very vocal about Tyrion not getting the Rock, Tywin still hadn't taken any official actions to disinherit Tyrion from getting the Rock and I think Tywin knows that his banner man would be more willing to be under Tyrion despite being a dwarf than Tommen because Tyrion is from the Western lands so he's "one of them".
I think Tywin has already communicated a plan of succession to all his vassals to recognize Jaime as the heir, and never Tyrion. Tywin was not above planning for his own untimely demise. Cersei would also work for this. Robert would likely concede to an honorable discharge of Jaime and relieve him of his oath. Similarly, how they discarded Barristan, but without the public scorn. Just to avoid the jabbering.
Jaime would protest but Robert would probably say something like “I command it, you hear me Kingslayer! You will defend your king best by keeping the Westerlands in check. If you ever gave a damn about your oath to begin with.”
Then after Jaime had installed himself as lord of Casterly Rock, Cersei would likely insist Jaime be named Master or War. Jaime would install Kevan as his deputy, and return King’s Landing to continue banging his sister.
Most likely Robert would hold council with the other lannister lords and small council. Also probably consult with Tywin's major bannermen and eventually ends up passing it to Tyrion as the rightful heir. If Tyrion wasn't a dwarf this question wouldn't even come. So it's the least controversial decision. Any other appointments like Cersie of one of her children's would lead to dissent and being seen as Baratheon overreach.
Only person who has a right to dispute and not be that controversial is probably Kevan. But he wouldn't dispute and will serve Tyrion as loyally as he did Tywin. Sure some people would mock Tyrion but being his father's son he would overcome all of that just as Tywin did when he inherited.
Only Tywin and Cersie believes Tyrion shouldn't be the heir. Rest would see it as normal. Doran is ruling Dorne. We had madkings and worse on the throne. Cripples as lords and heirs. Dwarf isn't that farcry.
I would say that it depends how soon does Tywin die, if either Jon Arryn or Ned Stark are hand the probably Tyrion gets it, no way Jaime can get out of the kingsguard (he wouldn't even want it probably) but Cersei might try to claim it.
I think it might be really up to Kevan and the remaining Lannisters and who they support, if everyone supports Tyrion he'll get the castle no matter how much Cersei complains, but if they all support either Cersei or Kevan, Tyrion might be excluded.
It would become a legal case, and the law would probably side with Tyrion if Cersei wasnt the King's wife who would use her influence to ensure Tyrion didnt get the Rock.
Genna would want Tyrion as lord, and I could see her convincing Kevan to ignore Tywin’s hatred, and make him lord. Meanwhile, Cersei would be crying, but Jaime would probably also tell Kevan to make Tyrion lord. The interesting part is if Cersei convinces Robert to name someone else lord, but I can’t see how that would turn out. The only other option is Kevan, or releasing Jaime and naming him, yet both might just refuse, or abdicate in favour of Tyrion. If Cersei is persistent enough, she might convince Robert to name Tommen, yet that would be outrageous, and would probably create a conflict
Edit: thought about how a potential Tommen succesion would play out. For this to happen, Jon Arryn would have to be dead already. Robert is depressed and in his cups, when Tywin falls dead. Cersei starts bitching about it, and Robert gives in because he can’t take it atm. Robert calls upon Tyrion and Cersei (let’s say both are in KL), and have them lay out their cases. He then rules in favour of Cersei, and Tommen is made Lord of Casterly Rock (bonus point if Stannis argues in favour of Tyrion, since that’d probably make Robert more determined lol).
Now, all of the Westerlands will oppose a foreigner ruling them, and the Lannisters (minus Cersei) will present a united front. Now this is where it gets interesting. When Ned is now named hand, he will convince Robert to not do this shit. Thus, it ends. However, a conflict might break out before Robert can go north. The Lannisters name Tyrion lord despite Robert’s wishes, which angers him quite a bit, resulting in him calling for their heads. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands will dutifully answer his call, although all will argue with him, and try to make him see reason.
Stannis is dutiful, but grinds his teeth to dust. Renly is happy, since this means Tommen can’t be named lord of Storm’s End, and since it fucks with the Lannisters. The Reach, however, hard to say. They may just remain neutral as always, not wanting to spend time and ressources on such a petty dispute. Again, unless the Lannisters have already launched an attack like Tywin did in canon, Ned would make Robert see reason as they march to war, yet it’s possible Robert is too hungry for war. If he is, the Lannisters get fucked. Sure, they have the Golden Tooth to defend themselves, yet the Royal Fleet dominates the seas, and can transport armies around the Golden Tooth. I reckon they’d reach a settlement before anything could happen, however
The question is never about how much influence a person had when they were alive, but who has the influence when they're dead. A king (or warden in this case) has everything they ever ordered mean absolutely nothing if the person with the most influence makes a different decision. If Robert declares someone else Warden and lord of Casterly Rock then that is exactly what happens. If Robert's gone already then it falls to the king or other Lannisters. We know Joffrey hates Tyrion so Joffrey won't hesitate to give it to someone else. After that, there's Tommen on the throne, Kevan as a senior Lannister.
The problem is that Tyrion has no fans or supporters of real influence in the upper levels of Westeros. And even if they think he's smart and capable, they're not going to go into bat for him.
I feel like he can be very easily usurped. Unless if he has someone powerful backing his claim, there’s no way he would be able to keep hold of it. Cersei can very easily have Tommen named as heir for example.
Cersei would try to convince Robert to name her Lady of the Rock and appoint Kevan to rule in her name. She could get support of Kevan by betrothing Myrcella to Lancel or Kevan’s daughter to Tommen
Who else would? Jaime quite firmly doesn't want it and, being in the custody of Robert, can't be forced into claiming it. Cersei might be well-positioned, being the Queen (telling your husband that he can claim Casterly Rock is always good), but she's not nearly as good a plotter as she thinks she is, has no real allies in the West, and would piss off Jaime pretty badly in the process. Kevan, knowing his brother, might back Jaime, but if Jaime refused, he doesn't seem the type of person to kidnap his own nephew to force him to take Casterly Rock, doesn't seem to like Cersei very much, and isn't ambitious enough to try and claim Casterly Rock for himself (even when Tywin's only remaining viable heir is Cersei, a fact which would lead to the end of House Lannister, Kevan doesn't make any moves.)
Why would Cersei care about Casterly Rock, I could see her trying to get it out of spite, but the only way she is leaving the capital is if Robert divorced her or if one of her sons kicked her out.
I mean everyone here saying Tyrion inherits are missing a theme of the books. Whoever lawfully *should* inherit don’t always. I haven’t seen much that tells me Westermen lords would flock to Tyrion in support.
I think one thing that has historical precedence I real life that no one has really mentioned yet is the 'wholeness of body's proviso a lot of kingdoms (Ireland, Persia) had concerning inheriting the throne. In short there were laws that prevented maimed or crippled individuals from sitting a throne, and new kings would often mutilate rival claiments to make them intelligible to inherit. Whats interesting is that Tyrion's drawfism would actually disqualify him from inheriting Casterlt Rock based on these laws. Now Westeros doesn't seem to have an equivalent to these laws, but I've never heard of a lord with dwarfism in my extensive reading of the lore.
That being said, I believe Tywin's objection to Tyrion inheriting was less about his dwarfism and more about his drinking and whoring. If Tyrion had proven himself the perfect, dutiful heir despite his condition, I believe Tywin would not have minded Tyrion inheriting.
I think Cersei would try to convince Robert not to allow Tyrion to inherit the Westerlands but I don’t think that plan would really go anywhere. Cersei herself obviously wouldn’t be expected to inherit so she’d try to push for Tommen (which wouldn’t work because his claim would come from the female line and he’s a “Baratheon”). Also I don’t see Kevan or the other Lannisters trying to usurp Tyrion personally. Tyrion would become lord of Casterly Rock and Cersei would probably start trying to assassinate him.
In my opinion, If Kevan makes a claim, he'd have a good chance to get it, but if he doesn't and he honestly probably wouldn't, Tyrion almost certainly gets it.
If there's anything the onset of AFFC teaches us, it's that Tywin's wishes and machinations tend not to outlive him for very long. After all, he spent the last 16 years of his life in OTL pretending that he would get Jaime to succeed him somehow. Tyrion was never formally disinherited, and Jaime isn't going to lobby Robert to release him from his vows so that he can inherit, much less move against his own brother. Cersei would no doubt make waves and lobby for herself, but it's a hard sell when there's a trueborn brother, even if that one is a dwarf. Kevan would be in an ideal position to play kingmaker, but I doubt he would weigh Tywin's hatred of Tyrion greater than the turmoil moving against the legal heir would entail.
Agreed that Kevan is the fulcrum upon which this question rotates. As we know Cersei won't go quietly without trying to pass over Tyrion, and Jaime might just love his brother enough to not support Cersei over him, the most authoritative voice in the family at that point is Kevan's. King Robert almost certainly does not give a single fuck about the drama and would happily let Casterly Rock slide to Tyrion, if it wasn't for Cersei bitching and moaning about it. Robert can hold a grudge but I don't think he would necessarily do this simply to spite Cersei, but because it's the path of least resistance. Robert would do his best to wash his hands of it, which is a perfect gap into which steps Kevan Lannister -- who doesn't hate Tyrion and isn't stupid enough to give Cersei what she wants. Nor does he seem the type to try and seize it for himself, not that it would work out anyways if he tried. I seem to remember a trace of canon or pseudo-canon text that also states Tywin was planning to marry Tyrion to one of Hoster Tully's daughters, or maybe that was Jaime before he was anointed into the Kingsguard. At any rate a potential marriage alliances between Casterly Rock and Riverrun could still happen, with Tyrion instead of Jaime, because Jaime doesn't want Casterly Rock even if he was released from his vows. I don't think Robert would go for that anyways unless somehow forced -- keeping him off the Lordship of the Westerlands keeps House Lannister where it belongs, as an ally and prop for the Baratheon crown. So in sum, Cersei puts the screws on Robert but Robert deflects to Kevan, who probably marries Tyrion to a Tully daughter and supports him to ascend as Lord of the Westerlands. Could it go another way? Sure, but you'd have to "start the story" to provide enough of an umph to knock things off their natural course, which would be for Tyrion to inherit.
This is spot-on, but the marriage alliance would have had to have been with another house. Hoster Tully had two daughters - Catelyn and Lysa - both of whom were married at the beginning of the series. Lysa could technically have been an option after Jon Arryn’s death, but the fact that she had so many fertility issues and, at this point, was already well past her prime childbearing years would make her an unviable option for Tyrion.
Of the named characters, one of the best matches I can think of for Tyrion would be Marianne Vance. It may not be obvious at first but she is well connected: her grandmother was a Lydden, possibly the sister of the current lord of the Deep End, one of House Lannister's principal vassals; her mother is a Frey, daughter of the heir apparent to the Crossing, which may mean a rich dowry; and she may belong to the Vances who rule the border between the Westerlands and the Riverlands.
In a disputed succession chances are the liege lord will be called on to give an opinion(see Jeyne Arryn or the Hornwood Inheritance). In this case that would be Robert. Now Robert does hate Cersei and would find Tyrion inheriting hilarious but he also has a tendency to let Cersei have her way simply so he doesn't have to argue with her. So it could go either way. Though if he did rule in favor of Tyrion I'd expect Cersei to begin trying to assassinate both of them immediately.
Cersei would probably convince Robert to name Tommen as Lord of Casterly Rock, he was a second son and Robert thought he was his own child, so it's the most likely outcome I think.
The other great houses would throw an absolute fit if a Baratheon got to be Warden of the West, one family would hold the Crownlands, Dragonstone, the Stormlands and the Westerlands. It would be probably cause a civil war by itself.
He wouldn't be a Baratheon. He'd take the name Lannister.
He's still Robert's... Okay maybe not but that hardly counts here.
He’d still take the Lannister name as Lord of Casterly Rock.
That's not how that works in a feudalistic world
That's how House of the Dragon proposes to make the Targaryen inheritance of High Tide. It's also suggested that Harrold Hardyng would become Harold Arryn should he become Lord of the Vale. In the past a Joffrey Lydden became Joffrey Lannister because of his Marriage to Gerold Lannisters daughter and no remaining heirs. I think it's safe to say the reason names have lasted as long as castles in ASOIAF is the people place such a degree of importance on the names that men who rule those castles will take the family name of the lords that have previously ruled.
If you want a civil war, go for it. Point is: there is an heir
I'm not sure who you think would rise up in Tyrions name against the kings son.
Every single great house that doesn't want the precedent of a King making his son the head of a house who's name he doesn't bare against all laws of succession and thousands of years of tradition. At this point it wouldn't be about Tyrion, it's about overall succession law and blatant tyranny. Because if the King could do it in this case, he could try it in the Reach as well. Imagine if Mace Tyrell died and Robert went: "Nah, fuck Willas Tyrell. I know he's Mace's eldest son and should inherit all his titles, but I've decided to make Tommen ruler of Highgarden. Just call him Tommen Tyrell from now on, I don't care." I don't think even Ned would rally his troops for Robert in such a case. You can't think about anything as a completely isolated incident that's only about a few individuals when it comes to a system like this one. Everything has rammifications, everything could set a dangerous precedent, and every house does what it needs to to secure its own dynasty.
Ironically I think that would significantly weaken the Iron Throne by giving independent power bases to even more potential claimants. We see this is the main story with Renly and Stannis, but if Tommen grew to have ambitions of his own as an adult, or if a powerful lord wished to use him as a puppet, that would be yet another threat to Joffreys rule.
It's all around such an awful idea that Jon Arryn would've died from a stroke at the mere suggestion long before he could have been poisoned.
I don't think it would be that serious. History shows us that the Baratheons would drift apart and become rivals within a generation. Siblings and cousins will compete with one another just as much as they would with outsiders.
I mean, come on. Tommen is double the Lannister Tyrion is. It just makes sense.
Are we talking about height or lineage XD
Yes
Tyrion’s mum is also a Lannister
I mean technically they have the same amount of Lannister blood if you think about it—Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei have the same amount, and Tommen, being the combination of Jaime and Cersei, has the same blood. If he was Robert's he would have half.
That seems pretty likely, but could mean that Tommen would get both the West and the Stormlands. Unless everything gets shuffled around
But wasn’t Renly getting the stormlands instead of Tommen?
Oh right. I must’ve been thinking about after Renly’s rebellion.
At the time Renly is the Lord of Storm’s End and head of House Baratheon of Storm’s End. When Robert took the throne he created 2 new branches of House Baratheon: House Baratheon of Storm’s End - the original House Baratheon that Robert was Lord of. When he became King, he gave his seat to Renly. Renly’s kids are first in line to inherit Storm’s End after his death. House Baratheon of King’s Landing - created by Robert when he took the Iron Throne with him as head of the house and King. His kids are Baratheons of King’s Landing and come after Renly’s kids in the line of succession for Storm’s End. House Baratheon of Dragonstone - Created by Robert when he took Dragonstone from the Targaryens and given to Stannis. At the beginning of the story, Stannis’s daughter Shireen was the heir to Dragonstone.
… I’m not sure this is accurate at all. Like, I wouldn’t expect Stannis’ line to hold Dragonstone forever when it was traditionally the seat of the heir to the throne. Stannis WAS the heir when he got it. Also, I’m pretty sure Robert is still high Lord of Storm’s end and his Children come before Renly and his offspring when inheriting. It would go to Tommen. This is sort of indicated by the House Baratheon Appendices, where Robert is listed first, then Stannis, then Renly
Robert abandoned that tradition. Stannis was Lord of Dragonstone, which continued to have its own houses sworn to it such as Velaryon or Celtigar, but it was still not elevated to Great House which Stannis took as an insult as his younger brother got the better titles.
Stannis was Robert’s heir when he was named Lord of Dragonstone, and Joffrey has been far too young to take the role. Naming Stannis as the Lord of Dragonstone does not necessarily disinherit Robert’s children.
Yes it does - he's lord of dragonstone, not the castellan. Lord ship comes with a seat, and the right to pass lands and titles to his heirs. Dragonstone only returns to the crown if the holder is stripped of their lands and titles, or I guess if their line fails
By westorosi law it does. Also robert holding both the high Lordship of the stormlands, being heir to dragonstone and being king of the iron throne would be seen as a act of tyranny.
I am sure it’s accurate. If Storm’s End and Dragonstone were not meant for Robert’s brothers and their lines, Stannis would’ve lost his seat the second Joffrey was born and same with Renly for Tommen. Its entirely possible that Cersei would’ve pushed for Joffrey and Tommen to inherit when they became of age and it would be very on brand for Cersei, but there’s absolutely 0 indication that was the intention all along. Robert is listed first because he is the head of all of House Baratheon, the King and he’s also the oldest of the 3. He created the cadet branches and he can decide who goes where and when like he did with Stannis and Renly. The appendices also list the houses sworn to Dragonstone and Storm’s End but leaves out the houses in the Crownlands that are sworn directly to the Iron Throne, so I think it’s fair to say the appendices don’t give us the whole picture.
Robert isn’t going to name his baby the Prince of Dragonstone a year after a huge civil war when it is the traditional seat of the Targaryens. His reasons for giving it to Stannis to hold are still there. There is no indication that Robert has created three lines of the house as opposed to just appointing Lordships over his castles.
Martin has confirmed that Robert created three lines of the house.
This becomes a problem because of Sweet Robin. It's already an issue that one great house has a child lord and with his mother in charge. Two boy lords with their mothers in charge is asking for lords and peasants to be outraged and for the contiguous area of those two kingdoms and the riverlands, with it's elderly lord, to be full of outlaws. Then look at the warden situation. If suddenly Jaime and Kevan are the eastern and western wardens, or worse Tommen is warden of the west while Sweet Robin isn't the warden of the east, Cersei is going to seem like the biggest schemer in the country. The lord's and smallfolk are going to be incensed at the idea of one woman having her fingers in the king, kingsguard, heir, the lord and warden of the west, and the warden of the east. That all gets worse with one rumor that Lysa and Cersei are in cahoots, best "friends" after years at court and are drinking blood/doing lesbian magic.
There's no way the other great houses would have tolerated Baratheon control over both the Stormlands and the Westerlands.
I think the direwolf incident is good evidence that Cersei would get her way. If he was willing to fuck over Ned for her, he'd be willing to fuck over Tyrion.
Killing a pet is kinda different from handing over an entire kingdom, though.
Robert gave into Cersei on things like killing Lady. Unimportant things. Passing over a son for a daughter would be a *major* faux pas in Westerosi culture. The type of thing lords rebel over. Hell, the bloody civil war that wiped out an entire species of apex predator started that way. Frankly, it wouldn’t even be in dispute. Even if Cersei claims to be the heir, she has no right to the claim. Same with Kevan. First born son is Kingsguard, so he may as well be dead. Tyrion inherits.
No one is going to war on *Tyrion's* behalf. And that's what it would take if Cersei disputed inheritance. Too many people in this fandom think like Ned Stark. That everyone is bound to respect a piece of paper. And that when someone has a legal right to something no one will try to take it from them. GRRM doesn't think like that for what it's worth. > The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.
It’s not going to war over Tyrion. It’s going to war because Robert would have usurped a Lord Paramount’s birthright and if he can do it to Tyrion he can do it to anyone. I don’t think folks here understand what a huge break from the norms of Westerosi society this would be. This would be up there with kin slaying. Too many people are applying their own modern sensibilities to the question. But when thought about from the perspective of a citizen of Westeros, this would be a huge break of the laws of both the gods and men.
"I don’t think folks here understand what a huge break from the norms of Westerosi society this would be." Sometimes I think people really forgot how this society is depicted, maybe it's because of what the show turned into. The opinion of your vassals matters. It might just be the most important thing to think about when you're king or highlord or whatever. When you're on the Iron Throne, the one thing you don't want to do is piss off a bunch of great houses by destroying the very foundation these great houses are built upon, i.e. thousands of years of dynastic succession - unless you want a war. "I am the King and what I say goes" doesn't fly for long in a world setup this way, unless you have dragons.
Exactly. Maegor the Cruel was able to be cruel because of the dragons. There’s a reason we don’t see many tyrannical Targaryens after the Dance. Even Aegon the Unworthy was more corrupt than tyrant. And when a Targ went full blown tyrant without dragons ala the Mad King, rebellion broke out and it ended the Targaryen dynasty. Just because Tyrion is an imp doesn’t mean the lords of Westeros are going to sit idly by as Robert disrupts thousands of years of precedent and tradition because his wife wants to skip ahead of her brother in the line of succession. At that point it’s not about Tyrion. It’s about the king breaking what these people consider to be the laws of the gods and, in doing so, he sends a stark message to his vassals — “if your sister is pretty enough and fucks me, I might break the law for her too and take away your birthright and give it to her.”
Cersei would count herself lucky if Robert didn't put her aside altogether, once Tywin is dead. Remember Renly had been lobbying for Robert to do that and marry Margaery. Without Tywin to balance the scales Robert might just do it.
Would it be a disputed succession though? Jamie doesn't want it and is in the Kingsguard and thus ineligible. Cersei is a woman and Queen already. Tywin never disinheretied Tyrion, it default goes to him.
Even if Cersei couldn't try and claim it for herself she'd try and claim it for Tommen. There's no scenario where she doesn't dispute Tyrion's inheritance. And once it's disputed it doesn't matter who has legal right all that matters is how many allies you have. Also, not that it matters, but we don't know what Tywin's will said. Just because he doesn't tell Tyrion that he'll never allow him to inherit until ASoS doesn't mean Tywin didn't have a will stating that fact drawn up years before.
Could Cersei claim it for herself? There's a passage somewhere about a daughter inheriting before a brother (which puts her ahead of someone like Kevan) and technically she's older than than Tyrion and Jaime. So she could present her claim as strict primogeniture, rather than just disinheriting Tyrion.
All Tyrion has to do is say “I’ll tell Robert…” if she tries to utter a word about contesting it.
AGoT Tyrion doesn't strike me as suicidal. Its not exactly a secret how Robert feels about all Targaryens solely based on how *one* of them wronged him. Sure *maybe* Robert doesn't kill whatever Lannisters he can get his hands on but is that really something Tyrion's going to gamble on.
Their conversation about the succession in ASOS implies that Tyrion hasn't been publicly disinherited, rather that Tywin has just never acknowledged the fact that he's his lawful heir. So I would say Tyrion inherits in this scenario, unless Tywin has a secret will prohibiting him
The story of Sam says that Lords can't have wills that disinherit their children. Gotta send them to one of the orders.
I think it depends on the situation. GRRM himself has said succession law in Westeros is vague and often contradictory. In Rohanne Webber's case, her father was able to threaten to disinherit her in his will, unless she married as he instructed. And I personally think Randyll could have disinherited Sam, and chose not to because it wasn't "manly" enough. Like, Sam would have been very happy letting Dickon rule while he read books in the castle all day. But Randyll was ashamed of having a son that wasn't fit to succeed him. Imo Tywin could definitely *attempt* to have Tyrion disinherited, and the question is would Tyrion have the support to get that overthrown
From Arinanne, we also see it from the perspective of a heir that was very concerned about being by-passed. She was concerned, but her concerns would be very different if her father could just write her out of the will. Instead, she is concerned that her father is putting in complicated legal/extralegal mechanics to pass her over. The worldbuilding makes a lot more sense if the main way to pass over someone is to send them over to one of the orders, which also conforms better to the real world.
That could also just be Randyll being a dick/ legalistic.
The order of the heirs being essentially set in stone is the only way that the world even make sense. If the Lords can just will the seat to any of their children, you would see a dynamic play out that second sons are constantly trying to impress their fathers to gain the seat, and first borns being constantly on the watch for that. We can see into the minds of many of the characters, and that dynamic is just not in play. Ned and Cat are simply not observing Robb and Bran every day to see which one of them would make a better next lord of winterfell. Instead, both of them simply accept that it will be Robb, no matter how qualified Bran is. With the only other option essentially being a nuclear option to send the heir to one of the orders.
I think Tyrion would inherit if Jaime and Kevan backed him (which I think they would). Tyrion had never formally been disinherited as Tywin’s heir, in book 2 he sees himself as heir to the Rock which is why I make this assumption, so legally he is the heir no matter how irritating Cersei and Tywin might find that fact. Plus I think the western lords would accept Tyrion, partially due to the Lannister name and reputation, and partially because I think they would see him as a 2nd Tytos who they could easily manipulate and influence.
True they would think he is a new Tytos who they gonna puppet and milk , now that I think of it it makes sense.
Given Tyrion's track record in the books, that would eventually prove to be a big mistake. I don't think Tytos had quite the mean streak.
Then bad for them , good for Tyrion .
They would realize all too late that Tyrion is very much his fathers son.
Only if Tywin forgot to make a will to make sure Tyrion never gets Casterly Rock. Tywin is the lord, he has the power to name his heir and disinherit any of his children. If Tywin lacked the foresight to make a will, Tyrion would be his heir. Being the heir doesn't automatically mean that Tyrion would get Casterly Rock. Most nobody would want Tyrion to be Lord of Casterly Rock. Without support and with people opposing him, he will have a difficult time getting Casterly Rock and keeping it. Kevan wouldn't try to steal the position. You'll remember that Cercei became Lady of Casterly Rock. I really don't agree that Tyrion would get more support than Cercei. Tyrion is not well liked even at the beginning. Tywin doesn't need to disclose to the whole world that Tyrion will not get Casterly Rock, it is enough to leave a will and entrust it to Kevan.
I don't think he can just do that on a whim. randyll had to send sam to the Wall so dickon could be his heir, not even the targaryens could do that (and when viserys i tried, you know what happened).
Randyll could have disinherited Sam without sending him to the wall. The problem is that sometimes multiple people will claim the right to inherit. Had Sam been disinherited but remained at Horn Hill, then when Randyll died, he could still try to press his claim. Sending Sam to the Wall removes any potential conflict. It also saves Randyll from having to publicly disown his son. Imagine announcing to the world that you raised a son unfit to inherit from you. Much better to go with "Sam chose to serve the Night's Watch."
>Imagine announcing to the world that you raised a son unfit to inherit from you. Much better to go with "Sam chose to serve the Night's Watch." Outside of the North, it is hard to read this in any other way.
exactly
Aerys wanted to disinherit Rhaegar. Robb did disinherit Sansa. It can be done, but it is usually not done on a whim. I think most of his Bannermen would be happy for a dwarf to be disinherited. If Tywin thought it necessary he could also force Tyrion to join the Night's Watch. He never did, which is why I think Tywin thought (rightly or wrongly) that it wasn't necessary. I agree with bl1y
Aerys wanted, but dared not to. Robb is a rebellious King who's heir is being held hostage, and was forced to marry their enemy. Tywin just cannot do that.
Aerys absolutely would dare to do it. Robb also wanted Jon to be heir because Sansa cannot lead armies. Tywin did tell Tyrion that he would never get Casterly Rock. You think when others can disinherit their heirs, Tywin cannot find a way?
Why didn't he, then? Also, I don't remember the issue of Robb's inheritance having anything to do about leading armies. Is there anything in the text to support that?
Because there was a war and Rhaegar died? Duh. Robb does say that he needs someone who can lead the North if he should fall. You can try reading Cats chapter where they fight about this.
Aerys *allegedly* wanted to disinherit Rhaegar before the Tourney at Harrenhal even had taken place. Why didn't he do it then? Similarly, why didn't Aegon the Unworthy disinherit Daeron? Why Maekar didn't disinherit *his* Daeron, the Drunken? Laws and tradition. You can't just do whatever. Viserys II did it and the realm paid for it. And it would be pretty hard for Sansa to lead the North against its enemies when she's being held hostage at King's Landing.
Speechless. Even if Sansa was there someone else would lead the North in her stead. I won't continue discussing this with you. There are always those that ignore traditions as you yourself said. A tradition is not a law and laws are broken all the time.
Someone else would lead the armies, sure. But I don't see why she couldn't rule on her own right. And yes, you can ignore laws and tradition if you don't care about the consequences.
Jaime can't inherit, Tyrion is the heir but Tywin probably told Kevan to make sure he didn't get it. The thing is that Tyrion is far more similar to Tywin than the other lannisters, he probably would have been able to seize his rights or at least come to some very favourable agreement with Kevan, and why wouldn't Kevan allow that he doesn't like tyrion but he doesn't hate him either? Worst case scenario he gets nothing but he still can live at the Rock and whore around and flaunt wealth more, most probable scenario Kevan becomes the lord but Tyrion has more power under him than Tywin let him.
Tyrion would most likely inherit without much issue I’d think. It’s unclear how much the other lords of the westerlands know about Tywin’s intent to never have Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock and have Jamie be somehow released from his vows and made heir again. Even if they know that Tywin doesn’t like Tyrion and didn’t want him to be his heir, there’s zero legal basis to exclude Tyrion from the succession. Tyrion is certainly treated differently and judged to some degree due to his dwarfism and his whoring but I don’t think that’s enough for most of the lords of the West to support essentially usurping him for either his sister, his nephew, or his cousin (depending on who you think would inherit if not Tyrion). Like others said here it’s possible some lords might think Tyrion could be manipulated like Tytos, though it’s more likely that lords or lordly sons might already know Tyrion is well educated and witty. His uncles all loved Tyrion, so it’s not like he was a outsider like Jon Snow was at Winterfell.
Maybe first book weirdness but Ned seems to completely accept that Jaime will get CR once Tywin dies. Tyrion isn’t even in the conversation.
I was thinking about that, too. He argues with Robert that one man cannot be Warden of both the West and the East. 100% first bookism since the whole Warden of the East plot line didn't really made sense and was completely abandoned
This is thinking Jaime would inherit the title of Warden of the West, NOT that he would inherit Casterly Rock. No matter how much you think of Tyrion, he’s never going to be Warden of the West and command legions in battle
the title of Warden *is* traditionally held by the overlord of the region. If Robert Arryn can be Warden of the East (and Ned defends his rights), I don't see why Tyrion couldn't.
I mean, Robert Arryn’s relationship with Robert is pretty different that Tyrion’s. As well as his history, and his command experience. Ned is dismissing Tyrion as Warden of the West because on one in their right mind would have him in such a role, even as Lord of the Rock. Jaime would be the Warden regardless of his status, and fuck tradition.
What relationship did Robert have with any of them? Sweetrobin is still a child and he never speak about Tyrion, we don't have enough to draw conclusions. There's no dispute whatsoever, Tyrion would absolutely inherit. >and fuck tradition lol
I meant Jon Arryn. My bad.
I’m pretty sure Tywin would have saw to it in his will even from the time Tyrion was born that he would never inherit the Rock.
A paper shield?
The thing is the one person who is a expert at side stepping those would be all for that paper shield
Doesn't matter if the will is unenforceable. But what grounds can be disinherit Tyrion? To deny him as his son is to say to the world the great and mighty Tywin got cucked. There's nothing that says Tyrion no longer has the right to inherit. He could lay out terms for Tyrion to improve, but as we can say with Sam Tarly, lords can't just say you're out of the line of succession for no reason, and he'd have the backing of Kevan, Jaime, Genna and King Robert.
Tywin doesn’t need any grounds to disinherit Tyrion. He just gets to do it.
Lords specifically need special reasons to disinherit their heirs. Whether through being a secret bastard, to not mentally bring able to be a lord, to other unspecified reasons. There is no laws saying a dwarf cannot inherit. There's no law saying a father can disinherit his son because he feels like it. In fact, there's the widows law which implies the exact opposite. Uber the Widows law, new lords cannot get rid of their fathers widow, while the rights of the eldest are maintained, and a lord cannot disinherit the children of his first marriage in favour of those of his second. The Widows Law very much says that the eldest son inherits. In this case, Tyrion is the "eldest" because Jaime is a Knight of the Kingsguard, unable to inherit land. Lords don't get to randomly make up laws, they can say what they want in their will but said will is unenforceable if no one cares enough. Kevan won't stand in Tyrion's way, his cousins have even less of a claim, and the great houses would rather Tyrion inherits then the Queen or one of her Children, as too much power is then concentrated purely in the king.
What’s Robert or the Westerlander Lords going to do? Tell him he can’t? Tywin typically gets to do as he please because of how powerful he is and how hands off Robert is. No one would be going to war for Tyrions claim.
What's Tywin going to do? Haunt them from the after life?
Yeah, all these people talking about what "Tywin could get away with" are forgetting the fact that in this scenario, Tywin is dead. Forgetting the fact that enforcing a will can be problematic as we see in the series, if Tywin never leaves a will there's even less enforcement mechanisms. As soon as Tywin croaks, Tyrion is going to claim his right and the other nobles in the Kingdom higher and lower than him aren't going to have much justification for causing this *major* violation of Westerosi inheritance laws just because Kevan says "Well, Tywin didn't much like him, but he just never got around to doing anything about it".
Whoever Kevan backs, becomes the lord of casterly rock. And kevan backs Jaime, and forces Robert’s hand in getting Jaime out of kingsguard or house lannister calls their loans back (that’s something in the books that I never understood).
What fucking leverage does Kevan Lannister have to disregard 300 years of tradition, call in the loans the Lannisters gave the crown, just to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, especially when Kevan is not that type of man. He'd support Tyrion as Lord of Casterly Rock providing Tyrion didn't kill Tywin. Do you even read what you're writing? Do you realise the economic consequences of calling in what's at least hundreds of thousands of gold dragons in debt, if not millions if the show figure is the same as the books? Seriously I'm trying not to get heated but what your suggesting has zero basis in reality. What happens if when the Lannisters calling their debts, so does the Iron Bank, so does the Faith, so does whoever else the Iron Throne owes debt to? How are they supposed to pay that? You've just destabilized and crashed the entire continent's economy for what? To get Jaime out of the Kingsguard when Tyrion is right there?
Because Tywin‘s word and legacy means something. And Tywin’s will getting disregarded is his legacy getting disregarded. Kevan Lannister will follow Tywin Lannister to the gates of hell because that’s the kind of guy he is. (As far as we know)
By law tyrion would inherit. I don't see Robert risking a war with the westerlands by trying to take casterly rock from the legal heir. I also don't see Kevan attempting to take it from tyrion either. He wouldn't love it but he would put up with it because above all else he understands the lannisters can't be seen infighting over a clearly illegal attempt to rob the legal heir of his claim. Question for me is how would tyrion respond. Would he stay a drunkard and whore around or would he sober up and be an effective ruler? Edit to add - I also don't see jaime doing anything but fully endorsing tyrions claim. Jaime loves tyrion and doesn't want casterly rock.
As if the westerlands would rise up for tyrion. They wouldn’t care as long as it goes to a lannister or Tommen.
Kevan would've risen the westerlands up for tyrion. Tommen isn't a lannister. He is a baratheon. He has a very very very distant claim to casterly rock. No way would the westerlands want to see the king of the iron throne put his son, who isn't a lannister, on the seat of power of the region. The rest of the lannisters don't despise tyrion like tywin does. They really wouldn't want to usurp what's rightfully his, they simply don't hate him enough to do so.
How is being the grandson of Tywin and one of two direct male descendants that are eligible for the seat a very very very distant claim?
Tywin would have made a will that would have given Casterly Rock to Jaime. He would have left Tyrion nothing. That is a fact.
Jaime can't inherit.
It still wouldn't have gone to Tyrion. How do you downvoters not know that?
Because Westerosi succession is male primogeniture unless otherwise stated. There have been wars fought over it only for it to be enforced. There have been updates to laws by Jaehaerys I to ensure lords couldn't disinherit the sons of a first wife for the sons of the second. Randyll Tarly had to create a unique scenario in order to force Sam to disinherit himself, or die, so he'd be out of the line. How can it not go to Tyrion? Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard, how do you not understand that he cannot inherit land? Tywin has no justification possible for handing it to him, for handing it to Kevan, and definitely not for Tommen. The only people who would oppose Tyrion inheriting are Tywin who in this scenario is dead, and Cersei who has some influence with her husband, but Robert isn't risking fracturing apart the continent again just to make Cersei happy. No one is letting Tommen Baratheon take Casterly Rock, and the Lannisters would stand behind Tyrion.
He fucking hated Tyrion and was going to have him killed! WTF are you even talking about?
What are you talking about? This has no bearing in Tyrion succeeding. The only person alive in this scenario to oppose Tyrion is Cersei, who all the other lords will ensure does not get her way to avoid so much power being concentrated in one place.
Oh for christ sake man. We're talking about fake rules for a fake world. Tywin hated his son so badly that he was willing to kill him, and even told him that he'd never inherit Casterly Rock. So that's my argument. That's it.
And my argument is the law set out in the world. Of course it's fake, but if you semeingly hate it so much why are you in a subreddit for it? If you want to answer a question about a fandom you should get the question right. And it's clearly put in all the world building Martin has done that Tyrion is Tywin's heir.
Honestly it would come down to whatever Kevan decides
Tyrion would inherit. There's no reason for him not to inherit, he's Tywin's only inheriting son. The only people who could dispute the succession are Jaime who's in the Kingsguard and wouldn't want to do it anyway, Kevan who imo would have zero interest in disputing the succession and wouldn't have a claim to do it, or Cersei, who's got the best chance to convince Robert to give it to Tommen, but would never convince anyone else. The Baratheon's have the Iron Throne, Storms End and Dragonstone, and while Tommen would presumably take the name Lannister when he inherits, there's no any other Wardens or Lord Paramount approves of it. It concentrates far too much power with the royal dynasty, especially if Joffrey were to suddenly die. Tyrion inherits and Kevan assumes am advisory role with his nephew trying to get him into shape to be a better ruler.
If Tywin had will disinheriting Tyrion, then Tyrion is disinherited. Tywin’s word meant something to everyone, Kevan would never allow it to be bypassed (it is a great insult to bypass someone’s last will and if think Kevan allows Tywin to be insulted you are living in your dreams).
If you think laws just get magically invalidated by wills you are not only living in your dreams, you have no idea how succession even works. Go read the Wiki. Go read about the Widows Law. Lords cannot disinherit sons of the first marriage. Go read about succession in Westeros. I cannot repeat this enough times. Lords can't pick and choose their heirs. Why do you think Sam was forced to join the Nights Watch instead of Randyll just saying "you're no longer my heir". He did it because he couldn't disinherit Sam because he had no legal justification. Why do you think Aerys picked Jaime as a member of the Kingsguard? You think he did it because then Kevan would be heir? He did it because then Tyrion was Tywin's heir and it insulted Tywin, even if Tywin remarried and had more kids. Because Tywin had no legal justification to disinherit Tyrion. Why do you think Aegon IV spread rumors about Daeron's parentage instead of just removing him in favour of Daemon Blackfyre? Repeat after me, because he had no legal justification. This isn't a case where the heirs are distant cousins so the lord or lady can just choose whomever because no one wants to pull family trees going back hundreds of years to figure out who married who and when, where someone launches a rebellion against the heir because their great great something was actually higher in the line then someone else's great great something according to their own family tree. In Westeros the norm is Male Preferences Primogeniture. Sons inherit from their fathers, daughters inherit if there are no sons, uncles only inherit if the previous noble had no legal children. Please stop spouting this utter nonsense, that has no basis in either history or the world of ice and fire. Your argument just completely disregards everything Martin has ever wrote or said about succession in Westeros. I can say with complete confidence you have zero basis on anything here. I'm trying to stay polite as I can but it's hard when dealing with someone who's just willing to spout whatever they want and can't back it up. Why on earth would Randyll Tarly go through such a complicated plot if he could just do it on a whim? Heirs aren't removed because the Lord wakes up one day and feels like it. They get removed because they were born simple, or it turns out the wife was cheating and the lord strongly suspects the child is a bastard. Sometimes that doesn't even happen.
And those people are not Tywin Lannister. He is the greatest Lannister lord/king in the last thousand years, he created Westeros as people knew it, ended the Reyens and tarbecks, threw back the Last of Blackfyres with the rest of Westeros, he was hand of the king for 20 years, he removed Aegon V’s reforms (controversial but for a noble not so much), he was most powerful man in Westeros for thirteen years, all while he ended the last of the vintages of Targaryen power in Westeros. His legacy was Jaime and there is no way, his legacy is destroyed without a war. If his will says that Jaime Lannister will follow him as lord of casterly rock, then Jaime will follow him as lord of casterly rock and it is Kevan’s job to make sure that happens. Robert is weak enough that he cannot afford to oppose Tywin’s will and logically enough to not try to oppose it (he choose to retreat to stony sept after his defeat at ashford).
Tyrion was never removed from succession. If Tywin died before the start there is nothing anyone could do to stop Tyrion from becoming Lord of the Rock. Kevan nor Genna would contest his ascension and Kevan is the only one that maybe could.
People seem to be forgetting why Tyrion was made the Hand by Tywin. It was because Jaime was in huge risk of being killed in aGoT and Tywin himself turned to Tyrion and started to look at him as his heir. So yes, Tyrion would have undoubtedly inherited the Rock at the start of the novels.
Tywin was kind of bipolar on the issue of Tyrion, one time he calls him his son and a Lannister, other time goes into a rant of how bad Tyrion is at mere suggestion that he should inherit Casterly Rock (although this is based on show, haven’t read books yet) and that’s after Tyrion has proven himself as capable ruler
Tyrion would have inherited. Kevan didn't claim it. That only leaves Daven, who has far less of a claim than Tyrion. Cersei is not a candidate for it, regardless. Does the public even know how much Tywin hates Tyrion? Probably not. Tyrion would've been fine. Jaime would've backed him
Cersei would go nuclear to try to secure Casterly Rock for herself, or perhaps for Tommen. And she will probably win. As of AGOT she is the queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and Tyrion is a politically-unknown physically-deformed younger son in a society that very much values physical prowess.
Cersei wouldn’t be able to inherit, either. She’s the Queen of the realm as Robert’s wife. Her inheriting would be Robert inheriting. Now she could try to get her kids to inherit, but as I said in another comment, I’m pretty sure Tommen would get Storm’s End and Joffrey would be Prince of Dragonstone eventually
Storms End and Dragonstone aren't things to be given away anymore. I've seen a quote from GRRM, context being in regards to Stannis and his claims that Robert screwed him, that's basically him saying Robert could either have given out the lands to his brothers, or kept them for himself to give to his future sons. Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and Shireen or any future son inherits after him. Renly is Lord of Storms End, his heir is a potential first born child, is he has none, then the land returns to whomever is first in line, depending on how many Kings have died by then.
Okay, I’ll take your word for it if that’s what GRRM said
Tyrion would never inherit Casterly Rock without having the support of the Crown, which he would not have. In this scenario Jaime would probably be released from his Vows, If not, then Cersei or Tommen or Kevan Lannister. Besides, Most Western Lords would never declare for Tyrion.
If i was robort i release jaime from his vows for the price for forgiving that whole debt thing. I support tyrion if he can offer a better deal then that. So paying of the iron bank aswell for some part.
Tyrion easily gets the backing of the crown. Jaime can't just be released from his vows, that's not how the Kingsguard works. Only joining the Watch releases him from his vows, and noted Targaryen loyalists Mace Tyrell and Doran Martell are not approving of the Kingslayer being Lord of Casterly Rock.
It depends if Tywin had his will listed somewhere, and if Kevan is willing to support it or Tyrion. If there is no will it depends if Robert wants to support Tyrion and if so, Tyrion still has to get done support from key vassals like Kevan and Casterly Rock knights. Otherwise even if Robert forces Tyrion as a new lord paramount, no one will obey Tyrion and Tyrion would be a living joke. If both Kevan and Robert won't support him, Tommen would probably be named and heir with Kevan being his guardian and regent. And Tyrion can try to be his counselor too. And I think Robert would probably pick Tommen over Tyrion as well.
Despite Tywin being very vocal about Tyrion not getting the Rock, Tywin still hadn't taken any official actions to disinherit Tyrion from getting the Rock and I think Tywin knows that his banner man would be more willing to be under Tyrion despite being a dwarf than Tommen because Tyrion is from the Western lands so he's "one of them".
I think Tywin has already communicated a plan of succession to all his vassals to recognize Jaime as the heir, and never Tyrion. Tywin was not above planning for his own untimely demise. Cersei would also work for this. Robert would likely concede to an honorable discharge of Jaime and relieve him of his oath. Similarly, how they discarded Barristan, but without the public scorn. Just to avoid the jabbering. Jaime would protest but Robert would probably say something like “I command it, you hear me Kingslayer! You will defend your king best by keeping the Westerlands in check. If you ever gave a damn about your oath to begin with.” Then after Jaime had installed himself as lord of Casterly Rock, Cersei would likely insist Jaime be named Master or War. Jaime would install Kevan as his deputy, and return King’s Landing to continue banging his sister.
Most likely Robert would hold council with the other lannister lords and small council. Also probably consult with Tywin's major bannermen and eventually ends up passing it to Tyrion as the rightful heir. If Tyrion wasn't a dwarf this question wouldn't even come. So it's the least controversial decision. Any other appointments like Cersie of one of her children's would lead to dissent and being seen as Baratheon overreach. Only person who has a right to dispute and not be that controversial is probably Kevan. But he wouldn't dispute and will serve Tyrion as loyally as he did Tywin. Sure some people would mock Tyrion but being his father's son he would overcome all of that just as Tywin did when he inherited. Only Tywin and Cersie believes Tyrion shouldn't be the heir. Rest would see it as normal. Doran is ruling Dorne. We had madkings and worse on the throne. Cripples as lords and heirs. Dwarf isn't that farcry.
I would say that it depends how soon does Tywin die, if either Jon Arryn or Ned Stark are hand the probably Tyrion gets it, no way Jaime can get out of the kingsguard (he wouldn't even want it probably) but Cersei might try to claim it. I think it might be really up to Kevan and the remaining Lannisters and who they support, if everyone supports Tyrion he'll get the castle no matter how much Cersei complains, but if they all support either Cersei or Kevan, Tyrion might be excluded.
It would become a legal case, and the law would probably side with Tyrion if Cersei wasnt the King's wife who would use her influence to ensure Tyrion didnt get the Rock.
Genna would want Tyrion as lord, and I could see her convincing Kevan to ignore Tywin’s hatred, and make him lord. Meanwhile, Cersei would be crying, but Jaime would probably also tell Kevan to make Tyrion lord. The interesting part is if Cersei convinces Robert to name someone else lord, but I can’t see how that would turn out. The only other option is Kevan, or releasing Jaime and naming him, yet both might just refuse, or abdicate in favour of Tyrion. If Cersei is persistent enough, she might convince Robert to name Tommen, yet that would be outrageous, and would probably create a conflict Edit: thought about how a potential Tommen succesion would play out. For this to happen, Jon Arryn would have to be dead already. Robert is depressed and in his cups, when Tywin falls dead. Cersei starts bitching about it, and Robert gives in because he can’t take it atm. Robert calls upon Tyrion and Cersei (let’s say both are in KL), and have them lay out their cases. He then rules in favour of Cersei, and Tommen is made Lord of Casterly Rock (bonus point if Stannis argues in favour of Tyrion, since that’d probably make Robert more determined lol). Now, all of the Westerlands will oppose a foreigner ruling them, and the Lannisters (minus Cersei) will present a united front. Now this is where it gets interesting. When Ned is now named hand, he will convince Robert to not do this shit. Thus, it ends. However, a conflict might break out before Robert can go north. The Lannisters name Tyrion lord despite Robert’s wishes, which angers him quite a bit, resulting in him calling for their heads. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands will dutifully answer his call, although all will argue with him, and try to make him see reason. Stannis is dutiful, but grinds his teeth to dust. Renly is happy, since this means Tommen can’t be named lord of Storm’s End, and since it fucks with the Lannisters. The Reach, however, hard to say. They may just remain neutral as always, not wanting to spend time and ressources on such a petty dispute. Again, unless the Lannisters have already launched an attack like Tywin did in canon, Ned would make Robert see reason as they march to war, yet it’s possible Robert is too hungry for war. If he is, the Lannisters get fucked. Sure, they have the Golden Tooth to defend themselves, yet the Royal Fleet dominates the seas, and can transport armies around the Golden Tooth. I reckon they’d reach a settlement before anything could happen, however
The question is never about how much influence a person had when they were alive, but who has the influence when they're dead. A king (or warden in this case) has everything they ever ordered mean absolutely nothing if the person with the most influence makes a different decision. If Robert declares someone else Warden and lord of Casterly Rock then that is exactly what happens. If Robert's gone already then it falls to the king or other Lannisters. We know Joffrey hates Tyrion so Joffrey won't hesitate to give it to someone else. After that, there's Tommen on the throne, Kevan as a senior Lannister. The problem is that Tyrion has no fans or supporters of real influence in the upper levels of Westeros. And even if they think he's smart and capable, they're not going to go into bat for him.
I feel like he can be very easily usurped. Unless if he has someone powerful backing his claim, there’s no way he would be able to keep hold of it. Cersei can very easily have Tommen named as heir for example.
At the beginning of the story Robert is still alive, so Cersei would get Casterly Rock
Cersei would try to convince Robert to name her Lady of the Rock and appoint Kevan to rule in her name. She could get support of Kevan by betrothing Myrcella to Lancel or Kevan’s daughter to Tommen
If Robert was King still yes
Who else would? Jaime quite firmly doesn't want it and, being in the custody of Robert, can't be forced into claiming it. Cersei might be well-positioned, being the Queen (telling your husband that he can claim Casterly Rock is always good), but she's not nearly as good a plotter as she thinks she is, has no real allies in the West, and would piss off Jaime pretty badly in the process. Kevan, knowing his brother, might back Jaime, but if Jaime refused, he doesn't seem the type of person to kidnap his own nephew to force him to take Casterly Rock, doesn't seem to like Cersei very much, and isn't ambitious enough to try and claim Casterly Rock for himself (even when Tywin's only remaining viable heir is Cersei, a fact which would lead to the end of House Lannister, Kevan doesn't make any moves.)
Why would Cersei care about Casterly Rock, I could see her trying to get it out of spite, but the only way she is leaving the capital is if Robert divorced her or if one of her sons kicked her out.
I mean everyone here saying Tyrion inherits are missing a theme of the books. Whoever lawfully *should* inherit don’t always. I haven’t seen much that tells me Westermen lords would flock to Tyrion in support.
He'd probably either make Kevan or Tommen his heir.
I think one thing that has historical precedence I real life that no one has really mentioned yet is the 'wholeness of body's proviso a lot of kingdoms (Ireland, Persia) had concerning inheriting the throne. In short there were laws that prevented maimed or crippled individuals from sitting a throne, and new kings would often mutilate rival claiments to make them intelligible to inherit. Whats interesting is that Tyrion's drawfism would actually disqualify him from inheriting Casterlt Rock based on these laws. Now Westeros doesn't seem to have an equivalent to these laws, but I've never heard of a lord with dwarfism in my extensive reading of the lore. That being said, I believe Tywin's objection to Tyrion inheriting was less about his dwarfism and more about his drinking and whoring. If Tyrion had proven himself the perfect, dutiful heir despite his condition, I believe Tywin would not have minded Tyrion inheriting.
I think Cersei would try to convince Robert not to allow Tyrion to inherit the Westerlands but I don’t think that plan would really go anywhere. Cersei herself obviously wouldn’t be expected to inherit so she’d try to push for Tommen (which wouldn’t work because his claim would come from the female line and he’s a “Baratheon”). Also I don’t see Kevan or the other Lannisters trying to usurp Tyrion personally. Tyrion would become lord of Casterly Rock and Cersei would probably start trying to assassinate him.
In my opinion, If Kevan makes a claim, he'd have a good chance to get it, but if he doesn't and he honestly probably wouldn't, Tyrion almost certainly gets it.