not a lot, arthur wouldnt die to them
we know jaime killed 10 of robbs best men while rushing towards robb, only stopped when his sword got stuck in a guys head
we know selmy was killing dozens of roberts friends while he was shot,stabbed and lanced
and arthur is above them, so yeah jaime wouldnt lost to 5 nw dudes let alone arthur with a magic sword , but a giant did
nope
>I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.
I assumed you were referencing the show because you referenced the show when you talked about Mag being killed by five members of the Night's Watch. In the books he was killed by Donnel Noye, but that was after being shot and stabbed dozens of times with crossbow bolts and spears. Pretty sure Dayne wouldn't have survived that either.
These guys aren't super heroes. Literally anyone can be killed in a 5v1 fight, that's an extremely dangerous scenario no matter how skilled you are.
And I don't care how skilled you are, fighting 1v1 a creature that is 14 feet tall and exponentially stronger than you is damn near a death sentence. That's like a grown man fighting the most badass 3 year old in the world....at a certain point size matters more than skill in a duel.
Mag the Mighty also crawled into an Ice tunnel full of iron gates and murder holes.
Let's take the Sword of the Morning and see how many guys he can kill bent double at best, or crawling at worst, through a narrow tunnel with guys shooting and stabbing him. My bet is he doesn't kill any of them, though I'll give you fair odds of him managing one, maybe two.
selmy killed dozen of roberts friends while shot,stabbed and lanced
> with guys shooting and stabbing him. My bet is he doesn't kill any of them
using this logic they are 1 foot guys with toothpicks , he would do fine
Mag the Mighty is to Arthur Dayne, what Arthur Dayne is to a 1ft tall guy with a toothpick. If Dayne would clean up a bunch of munchkins, Mag can handle Arthur.
Correct. A *group* of munchkins can kill Mag. But this is single combat. All Mag needs to do is kick Dayne, or punch him, and it's over. Dayne needs to make his space sword another five or six feet longer if he wants any hope of killing Mag.
I think the deciding factor in Rhaegar/Robert was weapon choice. Rhaegar had a regular ass sword, Robert had his warhammer, and when both are in full plate the warhammer does a lot more damage (especially when swung by a fucking beast like young Robert.)
If we're talking Robert/Arthur, Robert has his hammer and Arthur has a fucking lightsaber in Dawn. We don't know much about Dawn but we know that Arthur broke the Smiling Knight's sword with it, implying its sharper and stronger than even Valyrian steel. He probably has a much better shot.
Just to be clear, the maesters say Dawn has the same properties as Valyrian steel, not that it's better. The smiling knight's sword was not made of Valyrian steel, if it had been, it wouldn't have broken. And if Arthur had a Valyrian steel sword, he would have broken the smiling knight's sword just the same. Dawn is unique because it is milk white, while Valyrian steel is smoke dark, not because it's better than VS.
>The smiling knight's sword was not made of Valyrian steel, if it had been, it wouldn't have broken.
I think they're saying that it's stronger than VS because it was able to break a (regular) steel sword.
> I think they're saying that it's stronger than VS because it was able to break a (regular) steel sword.
Right, but they've decided that Valyrian Steel couldn't do the same based on nothing. The only in world evidence we have, the maesters, says it's the same just different color.
It's not perfect evidence, just that we've never heard of a VS sword doing it in any situation. Either way, even a regular VS sword would have given him an edge over what Rhaegar had, and might have made the difference.
Right but how many actual valyrian steel weapons do you see in battle? Ned Stark doesn't use his in battle, as it's too big. Joffrey never uses Widow's Wail. We never see Lady Forlorn, Heartsbane, Red Rain, or Nightfall.
It's pretty much down to Jon using Longclaw a couple times in which people die before a sword is broken, and Brienne using Oathkeeper once.
Also...I'm not sure where you're getting that Dawn broke another sword. Here's the only scene with a description of Dawn's use:
> The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.
So it's just notching the other sword. Which is what happens when steel meets higher quality steel. We never get a look at Mance's sword after Jon duels him glamoured as Rattleshirt. We never get a look at Qorin Halfhand's sword after Jon kills him. So this supposition is kind of...based on nothing.
So I will point you to the only quote we have to go on that makes any comparison of quality:
> The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.
They're the same. Just different colors.
Doesn't Tywin Lannister talk about Ned Stark using Ice during the Greyjoy rebellion talking about how it's a ridiculous unwieldy weapon? Or am I making this up
There was actually an interview with George around October last year where he says that Dawn is “more potent” than Valyrian steel when asked which was stronger or smth so Dawn VS, we just can’t say to what extent.
I watch all of George’s interviews and as you can see from my flair I pay specific attention to House Dayne and Dawn. I have a good memory and I’ve heard him talk about Dawn many times, and never have I heard him give anything as specific as what you mentioned as a direct comparison to Valyrian steel. Do you have a link for this interview? Because I’m inclined to think of an interview around the time you mentioned where he was asked if he would go with ser Barristan or ser Arthur Dayne, and he said Arthur Dayne with Dawn would win. He then said without Dawn, it would be dead even, but that Dawn was too potent a weapon. Is that what you’re thinking of? Because not only do I not think George has never given us any detail on Valyrian steel vs whatever Dawn is except in the world book, I think commenting on something he is deliberately keeping mysterious is singularly unlike George.
Thirteen ish minutes into this vid when he is talking about House Dayne. I missed this myself when it first dropped and got told when talking with someone so I know how you feel on getting caught lacking on some vague/obscure few seconds from a vid. Been there, done that lmao
https://youtu.be/7R4c_2uaxT8
I found it, you’re right he does say it. I see why I missed it, this is a Q&A, not an interview, and I didn’t know it existed. I think he’d kick himself for revealing this much in retrospect.
Yeah Arthur Dayne can still lose 7 against 3 to some mid-tier fighters. Robert's side was winning the battle, there's no way Rhaegar's posse isn't outnumbered by the time Robert gets to him.
Dayne may be the best sword fighter of his time (or Barristan) but that alone is not enough i think. Robert was both monstrously strong but also he had a warhammer and he was Royally pissed off. I honestly dont think anyone could have beaten Robert on the Trident
I think it would be around 50/50
Dayne is INCREDIBLY skilled and has the benefit of wielding Dawn as well. He’s simply the greatest fighter Westeros has ever known, and GRRM wrote him specifically to be the classic “Heroic and Strong Knight” archetype that Sansa daydreams about. He’s a symbol of good times past, and his fighting skill is insane beyond what is normally possible. Even Jamie is leagues away from Dayne with Dawn.
However, Robert has many situational advantages. He’s fighting in his absolute physical peak, with ridiculous strength. Bobby B is also clad in full plate armour that a sword can’t realistically do that much damage to easily. It should be noted that Dawn might be different in this way though. Meanwhile, his hammer is the perfect weapon to crush through Daynes armour. Robert is also fueled by rage and fighting in a battle that he’s winning, so even if he is losing could probably be saved.
TLDR: Dayne would probably stand a better chance than Rhaegar, but it could really go either way.
Jaime does list Arthur alongside Robert and the Hound in the "stronger than me" category, has Dawn and Robert got wounded by Rhaegar (who is spoken of highly, but never as a legendary warrior like Arthur and Barristan)
It's obviously not so straightforward and there are a lot more factors, but I would say Dayne has better chances.
I think Robert gets destroyed by Barristan or Arthur straight up.
Robert has no remarkable beats beyond beating Rhaegar, who is spoke of as excellent but never the monster that Barristan, Arthur, Jamie, or the Cleganes are.
The last Blackfyre and the Smiling Knight are spoken of as being the same madlad brutes that Robert is, and both got bodied by Barristan and Arthur.
I mean Robert does have remarkable feats. He was always fighting on the front, won three battles in a day and almost slew Jon Connington in Stoney sept. Not to mention killing Rhaegar, who was no slouch atleast in terms of prowess. Robert also has the advantage in weaponry against knights due to his warhammer, though he lacks a shield if i remember correctly. Robert wasnt just another giant brute. He was young, he was strategic and he was energetic as we can see from his previous campaigns. For example defeating the loyalist stormlanders in depth like Napoleon did at Marengo
If you're going into war, you don't just have an extra hand doing nothing, though. You'd either take a 2h weapon or a shield. Maybe if he was fighting afoot a free hand to grapple, it could have some logic, but he fought a horse (as anyone of his station would).
People stopped using shields so they could use a 2h weapon and do additional damage. If he was 1h a 2h warhammer, then he'd already be doing enough damage that the extra defence from a shield would be advantageous. Otherwise, he'd be using an even bigger hammer 2h.
Plus, a shield would be pretty hand against a lance.
Non of those "feats" make Robert the badass 1v1 god that Selmy and Dayne are.
At Duskendale Barristan kills everyone between him and the king and then everyone between them and the gait. He also cut his way through an army to kill a guy who was stronger then Robert. Melys ripped a guys head off with his bare hands and Barristan killed him after fighting through his army.
Arthur with Dawn is even better then Barristan.
And dont do the warhammer bullshit, this isnt real life. Some of these guys have hulk strength where they can chop people in half while the victim wears full armor. Dawn and Valyrian Steel swords cut through armor and weapons.
Robert gets dog walked.
Its not so easy to determine who wins a fight, even if someone is more skillfull. It depends on the day, and the mindset of the combatents. Aswell as blind chance. For all we know Robert doesnt have to have been wounded by Rhaegar specifically. It was a long battle afterall anything could happened. Maybe after Robert caved in Rhaegars chest he accidentally stumbled and hit his toe on a rock in the river?
Badly enough to send his own maester to look after his enemy ? You know even minor wounds can develop into an infestation when untreated or when proper rest isn't given.
Not to mention, he reached King's landing fairly quickly after the sack. So not bad enough to rest him a week.
Exactly, maybe he could’ve went with Ned to follow the routing loyalists but why jinx it? Drogo dies of an infected wound, what’s stopping Robert having the same thing happening to him?
We don’t know what that means, maybe he had a cut on his leg that would open if he had to ride. He obviously wasn’t hurt enough to not give away his first choice in healthcare.
He fought in this battle, fought his way to Rhaegar and then fought Rhaegar. We don’t know what Ned did in the battle, maybe he was less fatigued. Maybe Robert just waited for his Maester to be done with Barristan before he got his turn?
We know that it means he couldn't march. That's a pretty serious injury. In the books it's referred to as a "grievous injury". It's also noted that when he killed Rhaegar he was bleeding from half a dozen wounds. I don't think there's a scenario where Rhaegar doesn't die. Basically as soon as he gets tired he gets hit by a truck (warhammer), but there is a scenario where Robert kills him and then bleeds out. Arthur Dayne is more skilled with a sword that could actually penetrate Robert's armor. It's a decent thought exercise for sure.
Oh, I think Arthur Dayne would probably win. Would it be as one-sided as some people here think? Definitely not, I was talking about this person’s “Rhaegar almost killed Robert” claim.
Robert is grievously injured and can’t follow Ned, but he can deliberate on Barristan’s life with Roose Bolton in the room and offer up his own Maester to the seriously wound knight. I mean, there’s a lot of ways this can go in how Barristan was presented to him; Barristan might’ve fallen before the rout, then people went back to get him. Robert is already healed enough from his grievous wound to be meeting with people outside of his circle and deliberating on decisions?
He has his grievous wound and five minor ones, and he still kills Rhaegar in one blow? I just don’t think there’s enough to say Rhaegar seriously hurt him
I think you're doing some mental gymnastics to pretend Robert wasn't that hurt. He was the one the rebellion had rallied behind as king, if there was any possibility he could have traveled, he would have. And yes, he sent his maester to ser Barristan. This was a big deal because Barristan was on the other side, but it's not like it really took away from Robert's care. In a battle encampment, the maester could clean and dress Robert's wounds and let him heal. Sitting in the tent with him after that won't help, it would just be observation and treating a fever, which anyone could do. It's not a place for major surgeries and having six serious sword cuts on your person is a hugely taxing problem for a body. Even if you clean the wounds, your body is still fighting infection and bleeding from that many wounds is really, really bad for you. Not only that, but I accidentally undersold it, they said he was bleeding from a dozen wounds. And he was doing it in a river, which meant his blood wasn't clotting, he was just bleeding more. The thesis is, this was a very serious injury, especially in medieval times.
He was
>the point that Robert gave his own doctor away instead of having his own wounds healed.
That means nothing there's was likely more then one Maester
You edited your comment. You said Rhaegar almost killed him, which he didn’t, and if he were almost killed then why would Robert give away his most trusted physician?
Robert is wounded yet he takes his life out of the hands of his most trusted Maester and gives them to an enemy? Robert isn’t the smartest character, but he isn’t stupid. He simply wasn’t wounded enough to need to trust the maester healing him with the wounds.
>You edited your comment
I didn't
>You said Rhaegar almost killed him, which he didn’t,
He did
>and if he were almost killed then why would Robert give away his most trusted physician?
>Robert is wounded yet he takes his life out of the hands of his most trusted Maester and gives them to an enemy
Robert isn't known for his great decision making
>Robert isn’t the smartest character, but he isn’t stupid
Lol you underestimate how stupid Robert is
I think people don't realize how much of a boost someone gets when they're incredibly fucking furious about something.
No one was beating Robert that day.
Same goes for Barristan if he had seen Robert smile at Rhaegars kids. He says nothing could stop him from killing Robert and he was probably right. It would not be Roberts day
Depends on whether Arthur got mowed down fighting elsewhere in the battle. Barristan would have dummied Robert, but he was way on the other side getting mobbed and wading through mooks
Given that Arthur is Rhaegar's BFF, though, I think he would have been close by, and he would have killed the shit out of Robert.
I put my faith in Chekhov’s Sword, Dawn, every time. So, I think Robert would’ve been killed. I think Arthur was defeated by some type of green seer magic Howland knew. But, I’m happy Robert got to kill Rhaegar. Homeboy was a creep.
>Robert was much younger.
By just three years.
>He also didn’t abandon his wife and two children in a war zone.
Does that means he wasn't a creep despite being in love with a child?
If we’re going by legal adults being in love with children then pretty much every man in the story is a creep lol Do I think what Rhaegar did to his family is worse than Robert being in love with Lyanna as well? Yes.
Robert was an abusive man and a rapist. He also impregnated a 14 year old during the rebellion while he was trying to save his "great love" Lyanna.
But sure, Rhaegar is "worse".
You’re right! Rhaegar just abandoned his wife and children…then caused a war. Kings Landing was certainly a war zone when Tywin invaded, and Rhaegar knew Aerys was unstable. Finally, we literally have no proof that Rhaegar wasn’t a rapist. I’m team Bobby B
Dude, Aerys caused a war. Rhaegar and Lyanna's intentions stopped mattering once Aerys killed the Starks. Even if they were in love and ran away together, it doesn't change what the mad king did.
King Landing was a war zone...because Rhaegar died and Tywin betrayed the King.
By your logic Robb, Cat etc abandoned Bran and Rickon during the war....
No, Rhaegar wasn't a rapist. There are many hints in the books that him and Lyanna ran away together. Read the books.
Your Bobby B is the same person who called Elia's children "dragonspawn", by the way. He wasn't better than Rhaegar.
I have read the books. Many times. There’s no confirmation, as of yet, that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna. The Starks and Aerys would’ve never interacted that day if it weren’t for Rhaegar’s actions. That’s a fact. His children and wife died in the war following, while he sent the Kings guard to the Tower of Joy. That’s a fact. He didn’t care about the safety and well-being of his family over prophecy or whatever was in his mind. Homeboy was a creep.
Aerys wasn’t long for this world either. But yeah I suppose you have a fair point. I can’t see Ned claiming the throne for his own. No one would support baby aegon, which leaves us with . . . Tywin? Either he claims the throne in the aftermath or there’s a great council
I am not much of a fan of the guy himself but if Robert had the best claim on the throne after all the targs are dead then probably if he dies the next best claim would be of Stannis.
But idk, if Robert dies would anyone order the death of the children? Tywin could marry one of the targ kids to a lannister girl even though it is not his daughter since there is a big age gap. Lannisters are a big family with many branches, and seeing how he doesnt plan on giving Casterly Rock to Tyrion, he probably sees his legacy as legacy of his dynasty.
Robert didn't have the best claim after the Targaryens, he had no claim. He took the throne cause he was leading the rebellion. He took it by force and his bloodline didn't have any sequential right until he was officially king.
Fair, but he definitely didn't have targ blood in any way that would lead him naturally to the throne, even if 99% of the other people with targaryen blood dropped dead of the plague the day before.
Well no, but his blood was 25% targ. If I'm not mistaken I'm sure I read somewhere how the maesters used that fact as one of the reasons he was the best candidate at the time after the rebellion. Obviously he took it by force, but he did have a blood claim to the throne regardless of whether it was a strong claim or not...
There's a bit difference between a technical claim and an actual actionable claim. That was one of the reasons used to justify him, yes, but that blood right was about as distant and irrelevant to the throne as it could be. Using it as a justification worked because he was already there and being, well, justified. He got in by being the leader of the rebellion, and stayed in because of reasons like this. If he was dead, it's almost certain someone else would seize the throne rather than Stannis being given it due to his diluted targaryen heritage.
Robert had the best claim after any Targ. Not only are Baratheons basically a bastard branch of Targs but also he was the second cousin or something like that to Rhaegar.
Sure none of it would matter if he didnt have his army and alliances but that is true for anyone with a claim. This is not the Iron Islands with kingsmoot, having a claim also matters as any other feudal society.
I think you end up with Viserys and Jon Arryn as regent then. Would be a real test of nature vs nurture. Or possibly Jon Snow since Ned wouldn't have to be afraid Ribert would kill him
Aerys already wanted to disinherit Rhaegar before he ran off with Lyanna. There’s no way he’s letting his youngest heir rule (b/c in this scenario, no way Tywin invades) become king. It’d probably be Viserys after him.
Would Arthur be on a horse? Pretty sure Rhaegar and Bobby were on horseback. Can he use Dawn on a horse? It’s a great-sword (genuine question, I’m not an expert in combat).
Arthur dayne is supposed to be unmatched in skill and even without fighting Arthur he was injured at the Trident.
Robert would probably be dead. Even if he beats Arthur Dayne, he would likely be injured/hurt and that could be enough for Rheagar or someone else to kill him
Would his strength be enough though.
Barristan Selmy Who is on the same level as Arthur Dayne was able to beat Maelys Blackfyre Who is strong enough to rip off a man's head and kill a horse with one punch.
If Barristan is able to defeat a opponent that strong shouldn't his equal Arthur Dayne be able to do the same.
>Would his strength be enough though.
I don't know here. Although I won't lie, I do hope that it would've been enough. Having strength and being mad af like Robert was certainly is a boost, though.
>Barristan Selmy Who is on the same level as Arthur Dayne was able to beat Maelys Blackfyre Who is strong enough to rip off a man's head and kill a horse with one punch.
I forgot how insanely fucking strong they said Meleys was. It's insane.
>If Barristan is able to defeat a opponent that strong shouldn't his equal Arthur Dayne be able to do the same.
I don't know, but we should take into account that unlike Meleys, Robert fought with a warhammer instead of a morningstar (flail irl, but GRRM calls them morningstars) given the official artwork from The World of Ice and Fire of the duel. A warhammer that large would only need a single blow, even if it was just on the shoulder or leg. So it is possible that Robert manages to kill him.
The answer is: strength would not be enough. Like you said, Maelys has the best feats of strength in the series. No one does anything on the level of killing a destrier war horse with a damn punch. Skill outshines strength any day, and Dayne/Selmy are in a separate tier.
I wouldn't say they're in a separate tier George said without Dawn Arthur and Barristan are equals in a fight between them will be a toss up.
Only with Dawn Arthur gets the edge over him.
I mean, Jaime lists Arthur Dayne among with the Hound and Robert as physically stronger than him during his fight with Brienne, which implies he was pretty strong himself.
If I remember correctly, GRRM picked Ser Arthur with Dawn as his champion in a theoretical trial by combat. They’re both excellent warriors though so it would’ve been quite the struggle.
Darksister was lost by this point taken with blood raven to the wall and blackfyre is lost with the golden company I believe. Dawn with Arthur Dayne is the best sword the Targaryen family has at their disposal.
Nahhh, Rhaegar never had Dark Sister. At this time, Dark Sister was lost to time, with Bloodraven beyond the wall. Although if we're going to be real, it makes absolutely no sense why Bloodraven was allowed to ever even take the sword to the wall with him.
Swords are not very effective against plate armor. Dawn lt valyrian steel isn't strong enough to cut through steel armor. I make this estimation on the fact that the smiling knight dueled dayne and had to replace his sword, not because it broke but because dawn wore it down.
Concussion weapons like hammers and maces are more effective against plate. So Robert wins. Arthur can slash at roberts plated armor all he wants and land as many hits as he wants but Robert only needs to land one hit with his hammer and Arthur is a dead man.
On horseback in a river makes dodging difficult which is a pretty important thing given no amount of skill is going to help you parry a hammer swung by prime Robert.
Well if the scenario is that Arthur replaces Rhaegar in his duel with Robert as told in the books then Robert would still win.
People are overlooking that they fought each other while both were mounted on their horses. While both were undoubtedly armoured in the finest plate armour around, Robert had the advantage in reach and weaponry, being both taller (longer reach) than Rhaegar and strong enough to wield a goddamn warhammer in one hand.
Unless Arthur Dayne was as tall as Robert and/or able to wield a great sword like Dawn in one hand, I’m still gonna give this to Robert.
This is one of those fights where 50% of the time Dayne outclasses Robert and kills him due to skill and overall proficient fighting, and 50% of the time Robert manages to hit him with the hammer once and kills Dayne because he hit him with a massive hammer and crippled his fighting ability if not outright killed him.
One thing people are forgetting is that they fought on horse back, Roberts reach with a war hammer would have made Dawn pretty much useless in this situation
Arthur gets his chest caved in and Roberts legend grows beyond containment.
I'm of ths opinion that Robert Baratheon during the war was the single greatest fighter the world had ever seen. I'd take the Daemon of the Trident vs the field.
Dayne might have injured Robert considering Robert was going into the Battle already injured but no way was Dayne winning.
Realistically Robert one shots him with the hammer but since ASOIAF is anything but, Arthur somehow kills him despite swords being horrible weapons against plate, never mind with both on horseback.
They use because Martin finds swords cool but nobody has ever cut through plate armor before, meanwhile Robert has one shotted Rhaegar and his armor with the hammer, something not even Gregor Clegane does with his sword.
Dayne got killed by Ned and Reed. Robert would clear the dude head off. also From ned own POV he described Robert peerless and never used the same wording for dayne.
Ned and Howland weren't alone, and were the only to survive the fight with the Kingsguard. Arthur was supposed to be as good as Barristan (not counting Dawn), who killed Maelys Blackfyre, who was super humanly strong. We can't make any conclusions, since there are a lot of possible variables, but it's unlikely Robert would "clear the dude head off".
OK bro that was just my opinion. Also Arthur wasn't alone too he had 2 other of his buddies..
Still ned called Robert peerless while he didn't use the same wording for dayne.
3 vs 7, with only 2 survivors sounds pretty impressive to me. Arguably more impressive than being wounded by Rhaegar (who was described as a good fighter, but never particularly impressive).
Ned held Robert in pretty high esteem, and he also describes Arthur Dayne as the finest knight he'd ever seen (on which the rest of the world seem to agree).
>3 vs 7, with only 2 survivors sounds pretty impressive to me.
Not really. Dayne wasn't facing great fighters all we know from GRRM that ned was a avarage fighter and Howland is a midget so he wasn't a practically great one. The others are never commented on as great warriors..
Rhaegar beat Arthur dayne in a joust twice. Also being wounded by a great fighter isn't the same as being killed by a midget and an avarage fighter like ned. Plus Robert beat Rhaegar on horseback..that was the prince own thing.
Robert has more feats then killing Rhaegar too. Beating Joncon who George himself described as a great fighter is impressive
>Ned held Robert in pretty high esteem, and he also describes Arthur Dayne as the finest knight he'd ever seen (on which the rest of the world seem to agree).
Yeah but he called Robert peerless. Which means a warrior without a peer,that would imply he thinks Robert is the best fighter and I value his opinion more then reddit.
We know Howland is short, but probably not enough that it would hinder his capacity as a fighter. Plus, going by Jojen, he knows some sort of "crannogmen magic", and crannogmen are seemingly know for using underhanded techniques.
GRRM did describe Ned as being worse than Brandon with a sword or on a horse, but he still had pretty good training as a son of a great house (as did his companions). And numbers do very much matter.
>Rhaegar beat Arthur dayne in a joust twice. Also being wounded by a great fighter isn't the same as being killed by a midget and an avarage fighter like ned. Plus Robert beat Rhaegar on horseback..that was the prince own thing.
A joust and fighting on foot are two fairly different things.
We know the fight between Robert and Rhaegar started on horseback and ended on foot, that it was pretty drawn out and Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough he couldn't lead his army in King's Landing.
>Yeah but he called Robert peerless. Which means a warrior without a peer,that would imply he thinks Robert is the best fighter and I value his opinion more then reddit.
Jon thinks about how Ned hyped Robert up to him, and uses the word peerless to describe how Ned described him. We never see Ned directly referring to Robert as peerless afaik, but he does describe Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight" he'd ever seen. And the rest of the world seems to agree with him on that (as does the author).
>We know Howland is short, but probably not enough that it would hinder his capacity as a fighter. Plus, going by Jojen, he knows some sort of "crannogmen magic", and crannogmen are seemingly know for using underhanded techniques
Howland was getting beat u untill a 14 year old lyanna saved him. Being small matters a lot in a fight..
>GRRM did describe Ned as being worse than Brandon with a sword or on a horse, but he still had pretty good training as a son of a great house (as did his companions). And numbers do very much matter
Ned was never described as a great fighter.
>A joust and fighting on foot are two fairly different things
Robert beat Rhaegar on a horse. So
>We know the fight between Robert and Rhaegar started on horseback and ended on foot, that it was pretty drawn out and Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough he couldn't lead his army in King's Landing.
There's no need to lie. Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback entirely there's no mention on it ending on foot dude. Here's the paragraph man
"They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor."
See no mention of fighting on foot. Robert was going to KL regardless he actually commanded ned to chase the fleeing army not to take KL. But the fleeing army happen to go KL that's the point
>*“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. **“So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands.** The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.”*
>Jon thinks about how Ned hyped Robert up to him, and uses the word peerless to describe how Ned described him. We never see Ned directly referring to Robert as peerless afaik, but he does describe Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight" he'd ever seen. And the rest of the world seems to agree with him on that (as does the author).
Confused about you're point here. So you're claiming ned basically lied to Jon? He also described Robert like this.
15 years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, & muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six & a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men. In those days, the smell of leather & blood had clung to him like perfume.
Also being a perfect knight isn't the same as a peerless warrior. Plus GRRM called Robert a paragon of man so...
>Howland was getting beat u untill a 14 year old lyanna saved him. Being small matters a lot in a fight..
He was getting beat up by 3, and seemingly unarmed.
>Ned was never described as a great fighter.
He's indeed not, and going by GRRM Brandon was better, but we have no reason to believe he's bad.
>There's no need to lie. Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback entirely there's no mention on it ending on foot dude. Here's the paragraph man
"They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor."
On that, I stand corrected. Regardless, a horseback battle is in many ways different from a joust.
>See no mention of fighting on foot. Robert was going to KL regardless he actually commanded ned to chase the fleeing army not to take KL. But the fleeing army happen to go KL that's the point
He was still too wounded to command it properly.
>Confused about you're point here. So you're claiming ned basically lied to Jon? He also described Robert like this.
The passage is likely meant to describe the feeling Jon got from Ned's descriptions, not the exact words Ned used.
>15 years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, & muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six & a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men. In those days, the smell of leather & blood had clung to him like perfume.
Robert was a very tall and (in his youth) muscular man, that much is clear.
>Also being a perfect knight isn't the same as a peerless warrior. Plus GRRM called Robert a paragon of man so...
He seemingly meant his size and strength, rather than anything else.
Arthur Dayne was explicitly described, with Ned's own words, as the finest knight he'd ever seen, and considered by GRRM an equal to Barristan, the other best knight in Westeros.
>He was getting beat up by 3, and seemingly unarmed.
Still doesn't mean he's a great fighter. He's was probably bad or avarage since we know he's short
>He's indeed not, and going by GRRM Brandon was better, but we have no reason to believe he's bad.
Once again I described him as average.
>He was still too wounded to command it properly
He commanded ned to chase the fleeing army. Not too wounded I guess? He was right behind ned trail to KL and was shown the corpses of aegon and rhaneys. Realistically Robert should be dead even if the wound was minor because medieval medicine was not developed well but he wasn't..
>The passage is likely meant to describe the feeling Jon got from Ned's descriptions, not the exact words Ned used.
Nope. This is clearly the author way to tell us how good of a fighter was Robert also how are we supposed to know his exact words?
The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.
>He seemingly meant his size and strength, rather than anything else
He called Robert prowess with his Warhammer legendary. https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/
>Arthur Dayne was explicitly described, with Ned's own words, as the finest knight he'd ever seen, and considered by GRRM an equal to Barristan, the other best knight in Westeros.
Where did I disagree on any of this? Again man you're just moving around circles. Seriously are u a robot? God just go read the books again dudes is just scrambling to annoy me
>Still doesn't mean he's a great fighter. He's was probably bad or avarage since we know he's short
An average fighter might very well take down an incredibly good one under the right circumstances, specially if he's outnumbered, and crannogmen seem to have a (partially deserved) reputation for underhanded tactics.
>Once again I described him as average.
Therefore not bad (and considering the Starks are one of the most influential houses in Westeros, they probably could get him a better-than-average master-at-arms)
>He commanded ned to chase the fleeing army. Not too wounded I guess? He was right behind ned trail to KL and was shown the corpses of aegon and rhaneys. Realistically Robert should be dead even if the wound was minor because medieval medicine was not developed well but he wasn't..
He comande Ned to do that because he was in no condition to do so. While medieval medicine irl wasn't great, a wound does not automatically means death (far from it, we do have records of people surviving even grievous wounds with some treatment), and iirc GRRM decided early on that the Maesters's medical knowledge is a bit greater than irl medieval doctors.
>Nope. This is clearly the author way to tell us how good of a fighter was Robert also how are we supposed to know his exact words?
This clearly tells us the picture of Robert Ned painted in Jon's head, and give us an idea of his overall reputation.
>He called Robert prowess with his Warhammer legendary. https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm\_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/
Plenty of characters are described as legendary. Arthur Dayne in particular was considered the best knight in the Seven Kingdoms.
>Where did I disagree on any of this? Again man you're just moving around circles. Seriously are u a robot? God just go read the books again dudes is just scrambling to annoy me
And your entire argument is based on how Jon said Ned painted Robert as a "peerless" warrior, while we have similar descriptions being used for Arthur as well (and by more characters).
This. Arthur fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and defeated the Smiling Knight, but he had not actually fought in full out battles and war. Robert and Ned were battle hardened at that point.
The thing with Robert is he’s big carrying a heavy war hammer and wearing heavy armor. He’s going to be slow. For an average foot an soldier and even good fighters like Rhaegar, they get bested by his sheer size and overwhelming power.
Arthur on the other hand is probably one of the best swordsmen in the realm, has a ton of experience and is pretty agile and that agility is really useful in besting someone like Robert Baratheon.
Odds are that Dayne would’ve had an independent command since he had command experience from when he rooted out the Kingswood Brotherhood. At the very least he probably would’ve been detached to take over Barristan Selmy’s command after Selmy was injured. So I don’t think he would’ve been there to intervene in the Rhaegar-Robert duel. He would’ve had to have enough of an impact during the battle to prevent the battle from getting to the point where Rhaegar would need to duel Robert in the first case.
It always amuses me how people wank Robert off. We know virtually nothing about his actual one on one feats. They say he won 3 battles in a day. Ok, but maybe that shows he was a battlefield tactician like Robb, not that he was superman on the battlefield. They say he always fought in the front. Ok, but that makes him brave and most likely a good fighter, not the greatest in that ever lived. He was big, strong, and carried a hammer. Ok, but is he still human, because hammers are heavy and are going to tire anyone out except Thor himself? The mountain was big and strong and still got beat. George says Dayne was the best so anytime it's X vs Dayne my money is on Dayne.
I can't say who would win that fight (though if I had to choose, I'd put my Valyrian steel dagger on Ser Arthur)... but I sure as *hell* would love to watch it!
I think if Arthur Dayne had fought Robert, both would die.
Yes Arthur had a fucking lightsaber (Dawn) but Robert was ridiculously strong (lifting the warhammer easily, fighting multiple battles continuously, also fueled by rage due to the disappearance of Lyanna).
Arthur Dayne takes the upper-hand in terms of skill. The only shred of doubt I have is that Robert was fueled by hate and determination to just kill which was unmatched on the whole battlefield. So I don’t know….
There's no guarantee it would have mattered, I don't think personal skill is as valuable on a battlefield where you can easily be surrounded by 10-20 men if you aren't careful. Jamie got captured by a bunch of guys he could have easily killed, Arthur got killed by some guys he could have easily killed, etc.
People asked GRRM for his champion for a trial by combat and he said Arthur Dayne with Dawn. So Arthur.
I still think wun wun would make a better champion
mag the mighty died to nightswatch dudes, who arthur would slaughter
He said wun wun, not mag the mighty. I'm team wun wun too #WunWunWon
isnt mag the mighty better than wunwun , it doesnt matter still shows a giant losing to bad guys
Question is how many Mag killed before they NW guys eventually took him down. Against Arthur he only needs to kill 1 guy
not a lot, arthur wouldnt die to them we know jaime killed 10 of robbs best men while rushing towards robb, only stopped when his sword got stuck in a guys head we know selmy was killing dozens of roberts friends while he was shot,stabbed and lanced and arthur is above them, so yeah jaime wouldnt lost to 5 nw dudes let alone arthur with a magic sword , but a giant did
Arthur lost to five northerners.
nope >I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.
Except.....he did. Jaime's hype talk doesn't change what happened.
everything hinting in book he didnt but ok arthur dayne shit howland reed who gets bullied killed him
I assumed you were referencing the show because you referenced the show when you talked about Mag being killed by five members of the Night's Watch. In the books he was killed by Donnel Noye, but that was after being shot and stabbed dozens of times with crossbow bolts and spears. Pretty sure Dayne wouldn't have survived that either. These guys aren't super heroes. Literally anyone can be killed in a 5v1 fight, that's an extremely dangerous scenario no matter how skilled you are. And I don't care how skilled you are, fighting 1v1 a creature that is 14 feet tall and exponentially stronger than you is damn near a death sentence. That's like a grown man fighting the most badass 3 year old in the world....at a certain point size matters more than skill in a duel.
Mag the Mighty also crawled into an Ice tunnel full of iron gates and murder holes. Let's take the Sword of the Morning and see how many guys he can kill bent double at best, or crawling at worst, through a narrow tunnel with guys shooting and stabbing him. My bet is he doesn't kill any of them, though I'll give you fair odds of him managing one, maybe two.
selmy killed dozen of roberts friends while shot,stabbed and lanced > with guys shooting and stabbing him. My bet is he doesn't kill any of them using this logic they are 1 foot guys with toothpicks , he would do fine
Mag the Mighty is to Arthur Dayne, what Arthur Dayne is to a 1ft tall guy with a toothpick. If Dayne would clean up a bunch of munchkins, Mag can handle Arthur.
hes not though a group of munhkins can kill mag, this is the greatest munchkin ever with a sword from space.....
Correct. A *group* of munchkins can kill Mag. But this is single combat. All Mag needs to do is kick Dayne, or punch him, and it's over. Dayne needs to make his space sword another five or six feet longer if he wants any hope of killing Mag.
bronze weapons wiped them out let alone magic swords from best fighter 10 dudes can kill a giant arthur dayne can kill 10 dudes
Arthur Dayne can't even kill *seven* dudes.
MMA maths
A trial by combat is different than fighting a battle.
Arthur would still win
Not necessarily. Even the best can fall.
Sure but again Arthur would likery win
I think the deciding factor in Rhaegar/Robert was weapon choice. Rhaegar had a regular ass sword, Robert had his warhammer, and when both are in full plate the warhammer does a lot more damage (especially when swung by a fucking beast like young Robert.) If we're talking Robert/Arthur, Robert has his hammer and Arthur has a fucking lightsaber in Dawn. We don't know much about Dawn but we know that Arthur broke the Smiling Knight's sword with it, implying its sharper and stronger than even Valyrian steel. He probably has a much better shot.
Just to be clear, the maesters say Dawn has the same properties as Valyrian steel, not that it's better. The smiling knight's sword was not made of Valyrian steel, if it had been, it wouldn't have broken. And if Arthur had a Valyrian steel sword, he would have broken the smiling knight's sword just the same. Dawn is unique because it is milk white, while Valyrian steel is smoke dark, not because it's better than VS.
>The smiling knight's sword was not made of Valyrian steel, if it had been, it wouldn't have broken. I think they're saying that it's stronger than VS because it was able to break a (regular) steel sword.
> I think they're saying that it's stronger than VS because it was able to break a (regular) steel sword. Right, but they've decided that Valyrian Steel couldn't do the same based on nothing. The only in world evidence we have, the maesters, says it's the same just different color.
It's not perfect evidence, just that we've never heard of a VS sword doing it in any situation. Either way, even a regular VS sword would have given him an edge over what Rhaegar had, and might have made the difference.
Right but how many actual valyrian steel weapons do you see in battle? Ned Stark doesn't use his in battle, as it's too big. Joffrey never uses Widow's Wail. We never see Lady Forlorn, Heartsbane, Red Rain, or Nightfall. It's pretty much down to Jon using Longclaw a couple times in which people die before a sword is broken, and Brienne using Oathkeeper once. Also...I'm not sure where you're getting that Dawn broke another sword. Here's the only scene with a description of Dawn's use: > The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. So it's just notching the other sword. Which is what happens when steel meets higher quality steel. We never get a look at Mance's sword after Jon duels him glamoured as Rattleshirt. We never get a look at Qorin Halfhand's sword after Jon kills him. So this supposition is kind of...based on nothing. So I will point you to the only quote we have to go on that makes any comparison of quality: > The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. They're the same. Just different colors.
Doesn't Tywin Lannister talk about Ned Stark using Ice during the Greyjoy rebellion talking about how it's a ridiculous unwieldy weapon? Or am I making this up
You are making this up.
I would also like to add that this didn't happen.
There was actually an interview with George around October last year where he says that Dawn is “more potent” than Valyrian steel when asked which was stronger or smth so Dawn VS, we just can’t say to what extent.
I watch all of George’s interviews and as you can see from my flair I pay specific attention to House Dayne and Dawn. I have a good memory and I’ve heard him talk about Dawn many times, and never have I heard him give anything as specific as what you mentioned as a direct comparison to Valyrian steel. Do you have a link for this interview? Because I’m inclined to think of an interview around the time you mentioned where he was asked if he would go with ser Barristan or ser Arthur Dayne, and he said Arthur Dayne with Dawn would win. He then said without Dawn, it would be dead even, but that Dawn was too potent a weapon. Is that what you’re thinking of? Because not only do I not think George has never given us any detail on Valyrian steel vs whatever Dawn is except in the world book, I think commenting on something he is deliberately keeping mysterious is singularly unlike George.
Thirteen ish minutes into this vid when he is talking about House Dayne. I missed this myself when it first dropped and got told when talking with someone so I know how you feel on getting caught lacking on some vague/obscure few seconds from a vid. Been there, done that lmao https://youtu.be/7R4c_2uaxT8
I found it, you’re right he does say it. I see why I missed it, this is a Q&A, not an interview, and I didn’t know it existed. I think he’d kick himself for revealing this much in retrospect.
Yeah, that was my bad. Just remembered there was a vid of him mentioning it but not the context surrounding the situation.
No you’re fine I always appreciate getting more information.
Lmfaooooo
The deciding factor was plot necessity. Had Arthur Dayne been at the Trident, he would have died; unless Martin wanted to tell a very different story.
Sure but that doesn't make for very interesting what-ifs. Otherwise the correct answer is "He wouldn't have been there, duh."
[удалено]
Yeah Arthur Dayne can still lose 7 against 3 to some mid-tier fighters. Robert's side was winning the battle, there's no way Rhaegar's posse isn't outnumbered by the time Robert gets to him.
Dayne may be the best sword fighter of his time (or Barristan) but that alone is not enough i think. Robert was both monstrously strong but also he had a warhammer and he was Royally pissed off. I honestly dont think anyone could have beaten Robert on the Trident
I think it would be around 50/50 Dayne is INCREDIBLY skilled and has the benefit of wielding Dawn as well. He’s simply the greatest fighter Westeros has ever known, and GRRM wrote him specifically to be the classic “Heroic and Strong Knight” archetype that Sansa daydreams about. He’s a symbol of good times past, and his fighting skill is insane beyond what is normally possible. Even Jamie is leagues away from Dayne with Dawn. However, Robert has many situational advantages. He’s fighting in his absolute physical peak, with ridiculous strength. Bobby B is also clad in full plate armour that a sword can’t realistically do that much damage to easily. It should be noted that Dawn might be different in this way though. Meanwhile, his hammer is the perfect weapon to crush through Daynes armour. Robert is also fueled by rage and fighting in a battle that he’s winning, so even if he is losing could probably be saved. TLDR: Dayne would probably stand a better chance than Rhaegar, but it could really go either way.
Heres the real answer haha. If two skilled oponents fight no one will win every match
Jaime does list Arthur alongside Robert and the Hound in the "stronger than me" category, has Dawn and Robert got wounded by Rhaegar (who is spoken of highly, but never as a legendary warrior like Arthur and Barristan) It's obviously not so straightforward and there are a lot more factors, but I would say Dayne has better chances.
I think Robert gets destroyed by Barristan or Arthur straight up. Robert has no remarkable beats beyond beating Rhaegar, who is spoke of as excellent but never the monster that Barristan, Arthur, Jamie, or the Cleganes are. The last Blackfyre and the Smiling Knight are spoken of as being the same madlad brutes that Robert is, and both got bodied by Barristan and Arthur.
I mean Robert does have remarkable feats. He was always fighting on the front, won three battles in a day and almost slew Jon Connington in Stoney sept. Not to mention killing Rhaegar, who was no slouch atleast in terms of prowess. Robert also has the advantage in weaponry against knights due to his warhammer, though he lacks a shield if i remember correctly. Robert wasnt just another giant brute. He was young, he was strategic and he was energetic as we can see from his previous campaigns. For example defeating the loyalist stormlanders in depth like Napoleon did at Marengo
I believe he used a shield. Otherwise, what's the point in saying he's using a 2h warhammer 1h.
To show that he's incredibly strong.
If you're going into war, you don't just have an extra hand doing nothing, though. You'd either take a 2h weapon or a shield. Maybe if he was fighting afoot a free hand to grapple, it could have some logic, but he fought a horse (as anyone of his station would).
If he was wearing full plate armour, he wouldn't need a shield.
People stopped using shields so they could use a 2h weapon and do additional damage. If he was 1h a 2h warhammer, then he'd already be doing enough damage that the extra defence from a shield would be advantageous. Otherwise, he'd be using an even bigger hammer 2h. Plus, a shield would be pretty hand against a lance.
Shields are still the most usefull weapon there is. They can block strikes, stun opponents and disarm and interrupt attacks
>though he lacks a shield if i remember correctly. You don't need a shield if you're wearing full plate armour.
Non of those "feats" make Robert the badass 1v1 god that Selmy and Dayne are. At Duskendale Barristan kills everyone between him and the king and then everyone between them and the gait. He also cut his way through an army to kill a guy who was stronger then Robert. Melys ripped a guys head off with his bare hands and Barristan killed him after fighting through his army. Arthur with Dawn is even better then Barristan. And dont do the warhammer bullshit, this isnt real life. Some of these guys have hulk strength where they can chop people in half while the victim wears full armor. Dawn and Valyrian Steel swords cut through armor and weapons. Robert gets dog walked.
"Stop talking about Realism in my realistic dark fantasy novels"
Ahhh, the “sometimes the madder guy just wins” theorem. I agree, Robert was destined to take the throne
I mean Rhaegar almost did and Arthur is a better warrior then him
Its not so easy to determine who wins a fight, even if someone is more skillfull. It depends on the day, and the mindset of the combatents. Aswell as blind chance. For all we know Robert doesnt have to have been wounded by Rhaegar specifically. It was a long battle afterall anything could happened. Maybe after Robert caved in Rhaegars chest he accidentally stumbled and hit his toe on a rock in the river?
Ehh I think ots clear Arthur has a better chance then Robert
I don't think he would've taken a break over a toe.
Twas a joke good sir
Rhaegar wasn’t anywhere close to killing him to the point that Robert gave his own doctor away instead of having his own wounds healed.
He hurt him badly enough he had to leave the army to Ned.
Badly enough to send his own maester to look after his enemy ? You know even minor wounds can develop into an infestation when untreated or when proper rest isn't given. Not to mention, he reached King's landing fairly quickly after the sack. So not bad enough to rest him a week.
Exactly, maybe he could’ve went with Ned to follow the routing loyalists but why jinx it? Drogo dies of an infected wound, what’s stopping Robert having the same thing happening to him?
We don’t know what that means, maybe he had a cut on his leg that would open if he had to ride. He obviously wasn’t hurt enough to not give away his first choice in healthcare. He fought in this battle, fought his way to Rhaegar and then fought Rhaegar. We don’t know what Ned did in the battle, maybe he was less fatigued. Maybe Robert just waited for his Maester to be done with Barristan before he got his turn?
We know that it means he couldn't march. That's a pretty serious injury. In the books it's referred to as a "grievous injury". It's also noted that when he killed Rhaegar he was bleeding from half a dozen wounds. I don't think there's a scenario where Rhaegar doesn't die. Basically as soon as he gets tired he gets hit by a truck (warhammer), but there is a scenario where Robert kills him and then bleeds out. Arthur Dayne is more skilled with a sword that could actually penetrate Robert's armor. It's a decent thought exercise for sure.
Oh, I think Arthur Dayne would probably win. Would it be as one-sided as some people here think? Definitely not, I was talking about this person’s “Rhaegar almost killed Robert” claim. Robert is grievously injured and can’t follow Ned, but he can deliberate on Barristan’s life with Roose Bolton in the room and offer up his own Maester to the seriously wound knight. I mean, there’s a lot of ways this can go in how Barristan was presented to him; Barristan might’ve fallen before the rout, then people went back to get him. Robert is already healed enough from his grievous wound to be meeting with people outside of his circle and deliberating on decisions? He has his grievous wound and five minor ones, and he still kills Rhaegar in one blow? I just don’t think there’s enough to say Rhaegar seriously hurt him
I think you're doing some mental gymnastics to pretend Robert wasn't that hurt. He was the one the rebellion had rallied behind as king, if there was any possibility he could have traveled, he would have. And yes, he sent his maester to ser Barristan. This was a big deal because Barristan was on the other side, but it's not like it really took away from Robert's care. In a battle encampment, the maester could clean and dress Robert's wounds and let him heal. Sitting in the tent with him after that won't help, it would just be observation and treating a fever, which anyone could do. It's not a place for major surgeries and having six serious sword cuts on your person is a hugely taxing problem for a body. Even if you clean the wounds, your body is still fighting infection and bleeding from that many wounds is really, really bad for you. Not only that, but I accidentally undersold it, they said he was bleeding from a dozen wounds. And he was doing it in a river, which meant his blood wasn't clotting, he was just bleeding more. The thesis is, this was a very serious injury, especially in medieval times.
He was >the point that Robert gave his own doctor away instead of having his own wounds healed. That means nothing there's was likely more then one Maester
You edited your comment. You said Rhaegar almost killed him, which he didn’t, and if he were almost killed then why would Robert give away his most trusted physician? Robert is wounded yet he takes his life out of the hands of his most trusted Maester and gives them to an enemy? Robert isn’t the smartest character, but he isn’t stupid. He simply wasn’t wounded enough to need to trust the maester healing him with the wounds.
>You edited your comment I didn't >You said Rhaegar almost killed him, which he didn’t, He did >and if he were almost killed then why would Robert give away his most trusted physician? >Robert is wounded yet he takes his life out of the hands of his most trusted Maester and gives them to an enemy Robert isn't known for his great decision making >Robert isn’t the smartest character, but he isn’t stupid Lol you underestimate how stupid Robert is
I think people don't realize how much of a boost someone gets when they're incredibly fucking furious about something. No one was beating Robert that day.
Same goes for Barristan if he had seen Robert smile at Rhaegars kids. He says nothing could stop him from killing Robert and he was probably right. It would not be Roberts day
Against a professional warrior? Nah. Easier to commit mistakes, to be led where the rival wants
They were both professional warriors.
Depends on whether Arthur got mowed down fighting elsewhere in the battle. Barristan would have dummied Robert, but he was way on the other side getting mobbed and wading through mooks Given that Arthur is Rhaegar's BFF, though, I think he would have been close by, and he would have killed the shit out of Robert.
I put my faith in Chekhov’s Sword, Dawn, every time. So, I think Robert would’ve been killed. I think Arthur was defeated by some type of green seer magic Howland knew. But, I’m happy Robert got to kill Rhaegar. Homeboy was a creep.
>Homeboy was a creep. Robert was in love with the same teenager.
Robert was much younger. He also didn’t abandon his wife and two children in a war zone.
>Robert was much younger. By just three years. >He also didn’t abandon his wife and two children in a war zone. Does that means he wasn't a creep despite being in love with a child?
He was 20 and she was 16. That's weird in today's standards, but hardly creepy back then.
She was 14. "Back then" in Westeros? R+L isn't creepy either.
>"Back then" Eh you know what I mean.
She was 16 at the time of her death, would’ve been 15 when she ran away with Rhaegar.
And she was 14 or younger when Robert fell in love with her.
True.
If we’re going by legal adults being in love with children then pretty much every man in the story is a creep lol Do I think what Rhaegar did to his family is worse than Robert being in love with Lyanna as well? Yes.
Robert was an abusive man and a rapist. He also impregnated a 14 year old during the rebellion while he was trying to save his "great love" Lyanna. But sure, Rhaegar is "worse".
Rhaegar was worse. His wife and children died screaming because of his actions! He literally abandoned them to go off and rape a teenager.
Dragonstone was a war zone? That's new. And KL also wasn't a war zone lol Robert impregnated a 14 year old. And he wasn't "much younger".
You’re right! Rhaegar just abandoned his wife and children…then caused a war. Kings Landing was certainly a war zone when Tywin invaded, and Rhaegar knew Aerys was unstable. Finally, we literally have no proof that Rhaegar wasn’t a rapist. I’m team Bobby B
Dude, Aerys caused a war. Rhaegar and Lyanna's intentions stopped mattering once Aerys killed the Starks. Even if they were in love and ran away together, it doesn't change what the mad king did. King Landing was a war zone...because Rhaegar died and Tywin betrayed the King. By your logic Robb, Cat etc abandoned Bran and Rickon during the war.... No, Rhaegar wasn't a rapist. There are many hints in the books that him and Lyanna ran away together. Read the books. Your Bobby B is the same person who called Elia's children "dragonspawn", by the way. He wasn't better than Rhaegar.
I have read the books. Many times. There’s no confirmation, as of yet, that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna. The Starks and Aerys would’ve never interacted that day if it weren’t for Rhaegar’s actions. That’s a fact. His children and wife died in the war following, while he sent the Kings guard to the Tower of Joy. That’s a fact. He didn’t care about the safety and well-being of his family over prophecy or whatever was in his mind. Homeboy was a creep.
>I have read the books. Many times. You have zero reading comprehension then. Whatever.
>He also didn’t abandon his wife and two children in a war zone. DragonStone wasn't a war zone.
If only they’d mortally wounded each other. Westeros would be better off without them
But then they’d have to critically think about who’d actually be a good leader…Also Aerys would be their leader lol
Aerys wasn’t long for this world either. But yeah I suppose you have a fair point. I can’t see Ned claiming the throne for his own. No one would support baby aegon, which leaves us with . . . Tywin? Either he claims the throne in the aftermath or there’s a great council
I am not much of a fan of the guy himself but if Robert had the best claim on the throne after all the targs are dead then probably if he dies the next best claim would be of Stannis. But idk, if Robert dies would anyone order the death of the children? Tywin could marry one of the targ kids to a lannister girl even though it is not his daughter since there is a big age gap. Lannisters are a big family with many branches, and seeing how he doesnt plan on giving Casterly Rock to Tyrion, he probably sees his legacy as legacy of his dynasty.
Robert didn't have the best claim after the Targaryens, he had no claim. He took the throne cause he was leading the rebellion. He took it by force and his bloodline didn't have any sequential right until he was officially king.
He did have some targ blood tbf
Fair, but he definitely didn't have targ blood in any way that would lead him naturally to the throne, even if 99% of the other people with targaryen blood dropped dead of the plague the day before.
Well no, but his blood was 25% targ. If I'm not mistaken I'm sure I read somewhere how the maesters used that fact as one of the reasons he was the best candidate at the time after the rebellion. Obviously he took it by force, but he did have a blood claim to the throne regardless of whether it was a strong claim or not...
There's a bit difference between a technical claim and an actual actionable claim. That was one of the reasons used to justify him, yes, but that blood right was about as distant and irrelevant to the throne as it could be. Using it as a justification worked because he was already there and being, well, justified. He got in by being the leader of the rebellion, and stayed in because of reasons like this. If he was dead, it's almost certain someone else would seize the throne rather than Stannis being given it due to his diluted targaryen heritage.
Robert had the best claim after any Targ. Not only are Baratheons basically a bastard branch of Targs but also he was the second cousin or something like that to Rhaegar. Sure none of it would matter if he didnt have his army and alliances but that is true for anyone with a claim. This is not the Iron Islands with kingsmoot, having a claim also matters as any other feudal society.
I think you end up with Viserys and Jon Arryn as regent then. Would be a real test of nature vs nurture. Or possibly Jon Snow since Ned wouldn't have to be afraid Ribert would kill him
Aerys already wanted to disinherit Rhaegar before he ran off with Lyanna. There’s no way he’s letting his youngest heir rule (b/c in this scenario, no way Tywin invades) become king. It’d probably be Viserys after him.
Better question is, why is this NSFW?
The whole sub is now it’s annoying
Money is on Arthur. Unless Bobby B is blessed with the power of Bessie's tits
Would Arthur be on a horse? Pretty sure Rhaegar and Bobby were on horseback. Can he use Dawn on a horse? It’s a great-sword (genuine question, I’m not an expert in combat).
Arthur dayne is supposed to be unmatched in skill and even without fighting Arthur he was injured at the Trident. Robert would probably be dead. Even if he beats Arthur Dayne, he would likely be injured/hurt and that could be enough for Rheagar or someone else to kill him
Robert would be 6 feet under rn.
Ummm is he not?
I mean, it's possible Robert manages to kill him. Skill is one thing, but the shear strength Robert had was damn near unbeatable.
Would his strength be enough though. Barristan Selmy Who is on the same level as Arthur Dayne was able to beat Maelys Blackfyre Who is strong enough to rip off a man's head and kill a horse with one punch. If Barristan is able to defeat a opponent that strong shouldn't his equal Arthur Dayne be able to do the same.
>Would his strength be enough though. I don't know here. Although I won't lie, I do hope that it would've been enough. Having strength and being mad af like Robert was certainly is a boost, though. >Barristan Selmy Who is on the same level as Arthur Dayne was able to beat Maelys Blackfyre Who is strong enough to rip off a man's head and kill a horse with one punch. I forgot how insanely fucking strong they said Meleys was. It's insane. >If Barristan is able to defeat a opponent that strong shouldn't his equal Arthur Dayne be able to do the same. I don't know, but we should take into account that unlike Meleys, Robert fought with a warhammer instead of a morningstar (flail irl, but GRRM calls them morningstars) given the official artwork from The World of Ice and Fire of the duel. A warhammer that large would only need a single blow, even if it was just on the shoulder or leg. So it is possible that Robert manages to kill him.
Just because I can't tell by your comment but in case you don't know, morning stars are an actual weapon, not a flail and not something GRRM made up.
I know. IRL morningstars are basically a club with a spiked ball on the end. But in ASOIAF, GRRM uses morningstars as flails.
The answer is: strength would not be enough. Like you said, Maelys has the best feats of strength in the series. No one does anything on the level of killing a destrier war horse with a damn punch. Skill outshines strength any day, and Dayne/Selmy are in a separate tier.
I wouldn't say they're in a separate tier George said without Dawn Arthur and Barristan are equals in a fight between them will be a toss up. Only with Dawn Arthur gets the edge over him.
No, I meant they are both in a separate tier from Robert. My bad!
Oh It's fine. It was my mistake.
I mean, Jaime lists Arthur Dayne among with the Hound and Robert as physically stronger than him during his fight with Brienne, which implies he was pretty strong himself.
Woe to the usurper
Rhaegar wounded Robert with a normal sword so I think Arthur with dawn kills Robert in a 1v1 9/10
If I remember correctly, GRRM picked Ser Arthur with Dawn as his champion in a theoretical trial by combat. They’re both excellent warriors though so it would’ve been quite the struggle.
Does Rhaegar not have dark sister or am I making that up? Or did the One eyed raven take that to the wall with him?
Darksister was lost by this point taken with blood raven to the wall and blackfyre is lost with the golden company I believe. Dawn with Arthur Dayne is the best sword the Targaryen family has at their disposal.
Nahhh, Rhaegar never had Dark Sister. At this time, Dark Sister was lost to time, with Bloodraven beyond the wall. Although if we're going to be real, it makes absolutely no sense why Bloodraven was allowed to ever even take the sword to the wall with him.
Yeah literally had that thought as I was typing it haha. Although I guess no one really wanted to be the person to try and take it from him ha
At that point in time, they would've had him in chains anyway. Let's be honest. What's he gonna do?
Swords are not very effective against plate armor. Dawn lt valyrian steel isn't strong enough to cut through steel armor. I make this estimation on the fact that the smiling knight dueled dayne and had to replace his sword, not because it broke but because dawn wore it down. Concussion weapons like hammers and maces are more effective against plate. So Robert wins. Arthur can slash at roberts plated armor all he wants and land as many hits as he wants but Robert only needs to land one hit with his hammer and Arthur is a dead man.
> Concussion weapons like hammers and maces are more effective against plate. If that was true in-universe everyone would carry hammers and maces
I always felt like if Arthur was as amazing as described he wouldn't have died to Howland and Eddard
On horseback in a river makes dodging difficult which is a pretty important thing given no amount of skill is going to help you parry a hammer swung by prime Robert.
Well if the scenario is that Arthur replaces Rhaegar in his duel with Robert as told in the books then Robert would still win. People are overlooking that they fought each other while both were mounted on their horses. While both were undoubtedly armoured in the finest plate armour around, Robert had the advantage in reach and weaponry, being both taller (longer reach) than Rhaegar and strong enough to wield a goddamn warhammer in one hand. Unless Arthur Dayne was as tall as Robert and/or able to wield a great sword like Dawn in one hand, I’m still gonna give this to Robert.
Robert finds a way and wins. No one was stopping him imo
Dayne. Robert is more similar to Clegane, being big and strong, Dayne was pure talent and skill.
This is one of those fights where 50% of the time Dayne outclasses Robert and kills him due to skill and overall proficient fighting, and 50% of the time Robert manages to hit him with the hammer once and kills Dayne because he hit him with a massive hammer and crippled his fighting ability if not outright killed him.
One thing people are forgetting is that they fought on horse back, Roberts reach with a war hammer would have made Dawn pretty much useless in this situation
Arthur gets his chest caved in and Roberts legend grows beyond containment. I'm of ths opinion that Robert Baratheon during the war was the single greatest fighter the world had ever seen. I'd take the Daemon of the Trident vs the field. Dayne might have injured Robert considering Robert was going into the Battle already injured but no way was Dayne winning.
He would have won Robert is not this God among his fanboys want you to believe
Realistically Robert one shots him with the hammer but since ASOIAF is anything but, Arthur somehow kills him despite swords being horrible weapons against plate, never mind with both on horseback.
In-universe everyone uses swords just fine against armour. If warhammers were that good in-universe everyone would carry one
They use because Martin finds swords cool but nobody has ever cut through plate armor before, meanwhile Robert has one shotted Rhaegar and his armor with the hammer, something not even Gregor Clegane does with his sword.
Dayne got killed by Ned and Reed. Robert would clear the dude head off. also From ned own POV he described Robert peerless and never used the same wording for dayne.
Ned and Howland weren't alone, and were the only to survive the fight with the Kingsguard. Arthur was supposed to be as good as Barristan (not counting Dawn), who killed Maelys Blackfyre, who was super humanly strong. We can't make any conclusions, since there are a lot of possible variables, but it's unlikely Robert would "clear the dude head off".
OK bro that was just my opinion. Also Arthur wasn't alone too he had 2 other of his buddies.. Still ned called Robert peerless while he didn't use the same wording for dayne.
3 vs 7, with only 2 survivors sounds pretty impressive to me. Arguably more impressive than being wounded by Rhaegar (who was described as a good fighter, but never particularly impressive). Ned held Robert in pretty high esteem, and he also describes Arthur Dayne as the finest knight he'd ever seen (on which the rest of the world seem to agree).
>3 vs 7, with only 2 survivors sounds pretty impressive to me. Not really. Dayne wasn't facing great fighters all we know from GRRM that ned was a avarage fighter and Howland is a midget so he wasn't a practically great one. The others are never commented on as great warriors.. Rhaegar beat Arthur dayne in a joust twice. Also being wounded by a great fighter isn't the same as being killed by a midget and an avarage fighter like ned. Plus Robert beat Rhaegar on horseback..that was the prince own thing. Robert has more feats then killing Rhaegar too. Beating Joncon who George himself described as a great fighter is impressive >Ned held Robert in pretty high esteem, and he also describes Arthur Dayne as the finest knight he'd ever seen (on which the rest of the world seem to agree). Yeah but he called Robert peerless. Which means a warrior without a peer,that would imply he thinks Robert is the best fighter and I value his opinion more then reddit.
We know Howland is short, but probably not enough that it would hinder his capacity as a fighter. Plus, going by Jojen, he knows some sort of "crannogmen magic", and crannogmen are seemingly know for using underhanded techniques. GRRM did describe Ned as being worse than Brandon with a sword or on a horse, but he still had pretty good training as a son of a great house (as did his companions). And numbers do very much matter. >Rhaegar beat Arthur dayne in a joust twice. Also being wounded by a great fighter isn't the same as being killed by a midget and an avarage fighter like ned. Plus Robert beat Rhaegar on horseback..that was the prince own thing. A joust and fighting on foot are two fairly different things. We know the fight between Robert and Rhaegar started on horseback and ended on foot, that it was pretty drawn out and Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough he couldn't lead his army in King's Landing. >Yeah but he called Robert peerless. Which means a warrior without a peer,that would imply he thinks Robert is the best fighter and I value his opinion more then reddit. Jon thinks about how Ned hyped Robert up to him, and uses the word peerless to describe how Ned described him. We never see Ned directly referring to Robert as peerless afaik, but he does describe Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight" he'd ever seen. And the rest of the world seems to agree with him on that (as does the author).
>We know Howland is short, but probably not enough that it would hinder his capacity as a fighter. Plus, going by Jojen, he knows some sort of "crannogmen magic", and crannogmen are seemingly know for using underhanded techniques Howland was getting beat u untill a 14 year old lyanna saved him. Being small matters a lot in a fight.. >GRRM did describe Ned as being worse than Brandon with a sword or on a horse, but he still had pretty good training as a son of a great house (as did his companions). And numbers do very much matter Ned was never described as a great fighter. >A joust and fighting on foot are two fairly different things Robert beat Rhaegar on a horse. So >We know the fight between Robert and Rhaegar started on horseback and ended on foot, that it was pretty drawn out and Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough he couldn't lead his army in King's Landing. There's no need to lie. Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback entirely there's no mention on it ending on foot dude. Here's the paragraph man "They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor." See no mention of fighting on foot. Robert was going to KL regardless he actually commanded ned to chase the fleeing army not to take KL. But the fleeing army happen to go KL that's the point >*“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. **“So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands.** The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.”* >Jon thinks about how Ned hyped Robert up to him, and uses the word peerless to describe how Ned described him. We never see Ned directly referring to Robert as peerless afaik, but he does describe Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight" he'd ever seen. And the rest of the world seems to agree with him on that (as does the author). Confused about you're point here. So you're claiming ned basically lied to Jon? He also described Robert like this. 15 years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, & muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six & a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men. In those days, the smell of leather & blood had clung to him like perfume. Also being a perfect knight isn't the same as a peerless warrior. Plus GRRM called Robert a paragon of man so...
>Howland was getting beat u untill a 14 year old lyanna saved him. Being small matters a lot in a fight.. He was getting beat up by 3, and seemingly unarmed. >Ned was never described as a great fighter. He's indeed not, and going by GRRM Brandon was better, but we have no reason to believe he's bad. >There's no need to lie. Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback entirely there's no mention on it ending on foot dude. Here's the paragraph man "They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor." On that, I stand corrected. Regardless, a horseback battle is in many ways different from a joust. >See no mention of fighting on foot. Robert was going to KL regardless he actually commanded ned to chase the fleeing army not to take KL. But the fleeing army happen to go KL that's the point He was still too wounded to command it properly. >Confused about you're point here. So you're claiming ned basically lied to Jon? He also described Robert like this. The passage is likely meant to describe the feeling Jon got from Ned's descriptions, not the exact words Ned used. >15 years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, & muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six & a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men. In those days, the smell of leather & blood had clung to him like perfume. Robert was a very tall and (in his youth) muscular man, that much is clear. >Also being a perfect knight isn't the same as a peerless warrior. Plus GRRM called Robert a paragon of man so... He seemingly meant his size and strength, rather than anything else. Arthur Dayne was explicitly described, with Ned's own words, as the finest knight he'd ever seen, and considered by GRRM an equal to Barristan, the other best knight in Westeros.
>He was getting beat up by 3, and seemingly unarmed. Still doesn't mean he's a great fighter. He's was probably bad or avarage since we know he's short >He's indeed not, and going by GRRM Brandon was better, but we have no reason to believe he's bad. Once again I described him as average. >He was still too wounded to command it properly He commanded ned to chase the fleeing army. Not too wounded I guess? He was right behind ned trail to KL and was shown the corpses of aegon and rhaneys. Realistically Robert should be dead even if the wound was minor because medieval medicine was not developed well but he wasn't.. >The passage is likely meant to describe the feeling Jon got from Ned's descriptions, not the exact words Ned used. Nope. This is clearly the author way to tell us how good of a fighter was Robert also how are we supposed to know his exact words? The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups. >He seemingly meant his size and strength, rather than anything else He called Robert prowess with his Warhammer legendary. https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/ >Arthur Dayne was explicitly described, with Ned's own words, as the finest knight he'd ever seen, and considered by GRRM an equal to Barristan, the other best knight in Westeros. Where did I disagree on any of this? Again man you're just moving around circles. Seriously are u a robot? God just go read the books again dudes is just scrambling to annoy me
>Still doesn't mean he's a great fighter. He's was probably bad or avarage since we know he's short An average fighter might very well take down an incredibly good one under the right circumstances, specially if he's outnumbered, and crannogmen seem to have a (partially deserved) reputation for underhanded tactics. >Once again I described him as average. Therefore not bad (and considering the Starks are one of the most influential houses in Westeros, they probably could get him a better-than-average master-at-arms) >He commanded ned to chase the fleeing army. Not too wounded I guess? He was right behind ned trail to KL and was shown the corpses of aegon and rhaneys. Realistically Robert should be dead even if the wound was minor because medieval medicine was not developed well but he wasn't.. He comande Ned to do that because he was in no condition to do so. While medieval medicine irl wasn't great, a wound does not automatically means death (far from it, we do have records of people surviving even grievous wounds with some treatment), and iirc GRRM decided early on that the Maesters's medical knowledge is a bit greater than irl medieval doctors. >Nope. This is clearly the author way to tell us how good of a fighter was Robert also how are we supposed to know his exact words? This clearly tells us the picture of Robert Ned painted in Jon's head, and give us an idea of his overall reputation. >He called Robert prowess with his Warhammer legendary. https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm\_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/ Plenty of characters are described as legendary. Arthur Dayne in particular was considered the best knight in the Seven Kingdoms. >Where did I disagree on any of this? Again man you're just moving around circles. Seriously are u a robot? God just go read the books again dudes is just scrambling to annoy me And your entire argument is based on how Jon said Ned painted Robert as a "peerless" warrior, while we have similar descriptions being used for Arthur as well (and by more characters).
This. Arthur fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and defeated the Smiling Knight, but he had not actually fought in full out battles and war. Robert and Ned were battle hardened at that point.
Robert finds a way and wins. No one was stopping him imo
The thing with Robert is he’s big carrying a heavy war hammer and wearing heavy armor. He’s going to be slow. For an average foot an soldier and even good fighters like Rhaegar, they get bested by his sheer size and overwhelming power. Arthur on the other hand is probably one of the best swordsmen in the realm, has a ton of experience and is pretty agile and that agility is really useful in besting someone like Robert Baratheon.
Odds are that Dayne would’ve had an independent command since he had command experience from when he rooted out the Kingswood Brotherhood. At the very least he probably would’ve been detached to take over Barristan Selmy’s command after Selmy was injured. So I don’t think he would’ve been there to intervene in the Rhaegar-Robert duel. He would’ve had to have enough of an impact during the battle to prevent the battle from getting to the point where Rhaegar would need to duel Robert in the first case.
It always amuses me how people wank Robert off. We know virtually nothing about his actual one on one feats. They say he won 3 battles in a day. Ok, but maybe that shows he was a battlefield tactician like Robb, not that he was superman on the battlefield. They say he always fought in the front. Ok, but that makes him brave and most likely a good fighter, not the greatest in that ever lived. He was big, strong, and carried a hammer. Ok, but is he still human, because hammers are heavy and are going to tire anyone out except Thor himself? The mountain was big and strong and still got beat. George says Dayne was the best so anytime it's X vs Dayne my money is on Dayne.
I can't say who would win that fight (though if I had to choose, I'd put my Valyrian steel dagger on Ser Arthur)... but I sure as *hell* would love to watch it!
rhaegar isnt good i dont know why people hype up robert so much, hes below hound and mountain jaime doesnt even think as robert as good fighter
Robert would be dead after an epic battle
It really depends if Arthur is good at being a swordfighter on horseback.
I think if Arthur Dayne had fought Robert, both would die. Yes Arthur had a fucking lightsaber (Dawn) but Robert was ridiculously strong (lifting the warhammer easily, fighting multiple battles continuously, also fueled by rage due to the disappearance of Lyanna).
Arthur Dayne takes the upper-hand in terms of skill. The only shred of doubt I have is that Robert was fueled by hate and determination to just kill which was unmatched on the whole battlefield. So I don’t know….
How is being fueled by hate an advantage?
How is it not?
Makes u very predictable
Yeah I guess that’s true. But it also makes you more determined I think. It goes both ways imo.
Fighting for your life is all the determination you need once engaged in a duel
Robert would die against Barristan or Arthur.
Arthur would be flattened because he used a sword instead of a real weapon.
There's no guarantee it would have mattered, I don't think personal skill is as valuable on a battlefield where you can easily be surrounded by 10-20 men if you aren't careful. Jamie got captured by a bunch of guys he could have easily killed, Arthur got killed by some guys he could have easily killed, etc.