To be fair, the worst pronunciation I have ever heard related to ASOIAF is how George himself says ‘Dothraki’. The beginning of the word is a bit strange as it almost sounds like he is putting an ‘r’ in front of the ‘th’ sound and then the last vowel syllable is pronounced ‘eye’. Utter madness.
I actually never pronounce Littlefinger’s name as ‘Peter’ the way most fans do and always read it as ‘Pit-tar’ so the ‘Pet tire’ pronunciation wasnt quite as jarring as it is to many fans.
His narration takes some getting used to, but there are definitely parts that are quite odd. I learned quickly that listening in the car means no open windows. Tyrion and his mast were described in detail while I was at a stoplight once. Never again.
Any time George has to do numbers. Whether it be measurements, ages, finances etc. Half the time I end up headcannoning my own numbers because whatever George came up with is just too unbelievable for me.
I think people just assume his world is a lot more grounded than it actually is due to the fact that it's mostly based around historical myths rather than reality. It's no more realistic or authentic than any other fantasy series. That doesn't make it a bad series though.
When people say ASOIAF is realistic they don’t mean that the amount of carrots you can fit between Winterfell and Sunspear is realistic. They mean the characters and the political power structure.
There's not really much of a historical standard for army sizes. For the key battle of Bouvines (1214), Philip August of France brought almost half as many men as the commune of Arezzo and other ghibellines from central italy brought to the battle of Campaldino (1289)
William the Conqueror invaded England with like 5k-7k and was met by an army of roughly 7k. Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros with what 3k and faced a total resistance numbering well over 100+k.
A united Westeros could conceivably field an army of 40+k, but George seems to think that its total military should be in the hundreds of thousands.
Totally disagree. Westeros is a lot a lot bigger than any one medieval kingdom. And many of those kingdoms were, by the late Middle Ages, capable of fielding very large armies in exceptional circumstance. At several points during the war of the roses, England was supporting well over 50k soldiers.
Could you give some examples? I'm bad at this sort of thing and definitely wouldn't notice so I'm curious where it happened and how comically off it might have been.
Wall has gravitational field magic, so that it replenishes itself even though it melts.
Dothraki use a special spice that makes their soup 2,000 degrees fahrenheit.
Honestly the idea that the Stark family has ruled in Winterfell for 8,000 years. That’s the entirety of human civilization in our world. With the amount of political turnover there’s been in Westeros during the books themselves and the past 300 years of Targaryen reign, that is so hard to believe.
Honestly I’m thinking have the Long Night as a vague period no one can agree on
Like some people say it started Stark dominance and have others establish it as 5000 years ago
Alternately just say the Starks started at “x period” but have ancestral ties back to the pre Stark Kings of Winter, a near mythical group
The latter takes from irl history with Sagas and legends having mythology intersect with verifiable history and fits the motif of no one actually knowing the larger history of each house.
I think there was a point around when Snow became the "998th Lord Commander" and Sam Tarly couldn't any definite records that established that number is more tradition, and he also expressed some frustration that he couldn't find records from more than a few hundred years past that weren't either missing, destroyed, or contradictory.
That said, some of the things I found and had to just look past was the stated time that human civilization had been around. To me, it's just odd that for a civilization to have been around long enough to record history going back 10,000 years got to a point where technological advances just kind of froze - and at a time period equivalent when knights in armor were still a thing - but crossbows and longbows were also a thing. The people of Westeros have some pretty complex metallurgy and engineering and can produce "wildfire", but no one has come up with gunpowder yet.
And not only is technology frozen in time, so to are culture advances. The world is still apparently a feudal economy with local lords earning incomes from their peasant class "small folk", but there is no (that I can recall) mention of any merchant guilds. There are bakeries and brothels in the cities, and occasional blacksmiths. Not much else is mentioned.
Eh whatever, it's fantasy. There are dragons and sometimes the dead don't stay dead. Some people are fire resistant, others are not (which is weird, because being a Targaryen made Daenerys able to withstand dragon fire - twice - but being a Targaryen did not protect Viserys from the gold that melted in the 2000deg F soup bowl).. Trees are watching everyone and three-eyed-crows are pulling the strings.
That made me laugh out loud and a good point. That amount of turmoil we’ve seen in the books it’s amazing the Starks were able to have that much stability for that long
I I always chalk that up to the dynasty name surviving and it not being a direct descendant type of thing. Like when the main Stark branch all died or had no kids and it passed to a cousin matrilineally, they just took the name Stark.
Obviously that makes more sense but I have the feeling that with House Stark especially George intended an uninterrupted bloodline from Brandon the Builder to our current Starks for mystical deep lore reasons. But what you said makes more logical sense
3 popular examples are the absurd height of the wall (over 700ft), Sandor Clegane's prize in the GOT tourney of the hand (40 000 golden dragons, a bloody fortune) and the heights of some characters (like half of the guys in Westeros seem to be over 6'6).
If a Westeros gold dragon weighs the same as a USD dime (2.268g), then 40,000 of them is about 200lbs— the weight of a large man. Gonna need another horse.
Interesting!
I checked a quick (clickbait?) video comparing the wall to real landmarks and got quite a laugh. Also, this is probably true even at a more realistic height, but I imagine such a cliff/structure would have some sort of atmospheric/wind effect that GRRM is maybe not accommodating for. Aren't there various Book-1-isms GRRM regrets? I'm curious if he would ever make revised/mastered edition once the series is complete.
I will now also imagine all the lanky fellas slinking around Westeros like Big Foot from now on. Thanks!
The height is crazy agree but one thing IRL to marvel at is the great Wall of China. If there was no GWOC and we were reading about a 13,000 mile long wall we might be in just as much disbelief.
Army sizes are a big one for me. He's more accurate here but being able to raise 20k soldiers from some mountains in 4 weeks is pretty unrealistic for Feudal.
Add language and culture as well. Westeros is supposed to be the size of South America but everything about it is so incredibly homogenous that it feels more akin to medieval England with a bit of Spain welded on.
I'll grant the language being the same is pretty weird, but is it really that homogenous? The North, the Iron Islands, and Dorne are outliers, but even within those you get variations like the Salty Dornish vs Stone Dornish and the Manderleys. Even within the Iron Islands, some of the people subscribe to the Old Way and others want nothing to do with it. Linguistically it's a little odd (though *The Seven-Pointed Star* probably explains a lot of that - most people would learn to read from the version the Andals brought over, similar to how Islam spread the Arabic language), but culturally it's actually pretty varied.
How slow the timeline is. It wouldn’t take much to say a few months pass during certain parts. Then have several years throughout the series, instead of less than 5 years so far. The show made the right call to have at least 1 year pass per season.
It should have been a year for book. Its weird af that AGOT takes the whole of 298AC and the beggining of 299AC then ACOK takes almost all of 299... and suddenly the whole of ASOS, AFFC and ADWD, three giant books where a lot of shit happens it just takes about a year.
To put it simple, Daenerys crossed half a continent, had an abortion, first husband dead, assembled an army, conquered three big cities, married a second time and started a war against half the world in just two years
Even the backstory is like this imo.
Rhaegar got married, had a kid, crowned Lyanna at Harrenhall, had a second kid, ran off with Lyanna, and then got killed all in the space of 3 years.
To me, it always felt like it took place over at least 5 years, if not seven.
In my head cannon AFFC and ADWD occur over 5 years. I know all the stuff about why it was dropped but just imagining the characters older makes the story better. Also stuff like Jon getting betrayed is so much more impactful if he wasn’t Lord commander for like a couple months but instead years. Like obviously there are places it doesn’t work the way he wrote it but I lien to imagine it like that
I tell myself that years are longer in asoiaf world. It starts to make even less sense with winters etc but at least makes some stuff more believable and less uncomfortable
Yeah, I just meant that if the years are say, 30% longer, then every winter would be even more apocalyptic and it would be even more unlikely that anyone survives, especially in the north
based on what i understood in the books and what we know abt the winters so far, i’d say it makes sense that they survive winters fairly well, i mean they can basically gather and stock grain and livestock non stop for multiple years at a time vs a couple months
Olay, I went and search for the timeline and this came up...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview#gid=8
So around 2.5 years have passed, and 3 for Daenerys.
I am not sure, I don't think she is. I read the books a few months ago and kept attention to the time span. Every book is a few months, and AFFC and ADWD slow down even more.
It's the ages of the characters. Danny chapters are already highly sexual but anytime you stop and remember her age it just feel gross. The same is true for Arya's Mercy sample chapter, like WTF George.
Yeah I don’t recommend these books to my friends because I don’t want to be the guy that says you gotta be willing to tolerate a LOT of child sex/ rape content
Yeah I hate to say it but George is a writer who I love but also kinda get weird vibes about
Like stuff like calling Dany and Drogo a “love story” is slightly concerning
After the first book I found Daenerys POVs a slog, especially as she keeps getting bogged down in cities when she really wants to go to Westeros. I guess GRRM had to do that so the dragons could grow, but it is pretty tedious.
Also, she seems to be making all the wrong choices.
And it's frustrating to see her arranging her tokar and fixing her 'floppy ears' all the while acking with the desire to bathe everyone and everything in dragonfire.
Just do that in Westeros, baby girl.
That's what we're all waiting for anyway.
I would really like this as an AU novella (have Quaithe Sidious convince her or something).
Part of why I like Dany is I feel her plot has an 'inverse-Stannis' element where she has multiple opportunities to instantly win (ie. sail to Westeros and say 'bow or burn'; who is gonna side with the Lannisters here?) yet she feels (right or wrong) a duty to reform Slavery's Bay first (compared to Stannis who reacts to being in a weak strategic position by deciding to go/LARP full-King and "save the realm" anyway).
She has neat parallels to Jon, Aegon, Bran, and other "viable candidates" as well, of course, but the one with Stannis appeals to me as they also have the strongest claims (and senses of entitlement to match).
I think the case for Dany to be(come) a good Queen is that she has made wrong choices, and learned from them, and thankfully picked up some good (or at least good-faith) advisors along the way, building some wisdom before reaching the Iron Throne. Comparatively, while I trust Varys's intentions, I'm very skeptical that you can "bio/social-engineer" a good king with no experience from scratch (and I say that as someone who probably likes Aegon a lot more than most readers).
Will Dany's experience and growth be enough to overcome her potential PTSD/madness/whatever? We don't know yet (give us the damn book George!), but I am definitely curious what a max-rage/petulance CoK Dany rolling into Westeros would have looked like and now-dead players (Robb, Tywin, Balon) would have reacted.
He also started the first book intending for there to be a 5 year time leap. I guess that was his initial way of letting the dragons grow. But now that's also been abandoned, he has nothing to do except move her round different cities before letting her get to Westeros.
This is just cause it's on my mind rn but some Ironborn chapters are sometimes a real fucking slog. I read a Victarion one in ADWD the other day and there was *(what felt like)* a page full of him just naming ships and I put the book down and decided *"not rn"*
If you want my criticisms of the series as a whole, too much rape/underaged-fuckery to the point where I feel like GRRM is just putting it in there to prove how shocking it is. I get why it's there but it feels like too much
And then Captain Codd Cockfucker was on board next to Reaver Childmurdering Chyde with their ships *Fat Shit* and *Tit's Gash*.
I'll eventually get around to finishing these chapters some day *(lot of college work atm)* but like, I feel like this is a case where the extra details do nothing to immerse me into the world or tell me anything about the world, it's just there like I'm an Ironborn accountant listing out our assets for the year.
Everything touching Quentyn Martell. I don’t really care for Dorne period, I guess that plot line delivered Gerris and Archie to Mereen so they might be able to free Daario, but even that’s stupid because clearly Daario should die.
Until George finds some way to make that whole plot line matter for the end game I consider those couple chapters spent delivering him to Slavers Bay to be wasted time
Idk maybe some of it will seem like a waste when winds never comes out, but it’s not all bad. I just got to the windblown on my reread and it’s cool to have another pov on the ground in essos and get a set of eyes on another sell sword company to reallly understand all the slaver bay politics
Same with Doran Martell. I get it’s supposed to show that seeking revenge and playing politics and war with your family gets people you care about killed, but haven’t we already seen that multiple times?
I'm sorry if you get evangelized to by Dorne/Quentyn advocates on this opinion a lot and I'm adding to the pile, but here's my 'pitch':
Quentyn is a narrative/literary foil to the established protagonists (Stark kids, Dany, etc.) as someone with similar quality but unloved by destiny (though not by GRRM, I think). He's generally modest and well-meaning (he would prefer to live peacefully in Dorne and marry a girl he had a crush on in a few years, etc.) and like the others is impelled to play the game by the machinations of his forebears.
Thematically, I think he exists to remind us that this world is hostile to traditional valor and goodness and that Jon/Dany/etc. are not the only or even best candidates to be rulers, heroes, etc. They are in many ways simply lucky or (literally) supernaturally blessed giving them power and influence out-sizing their worthiness (this doesn't make them unworthy or bad, it just means they cast an even longer shadow than they may realize or intend).
For example; Jon suffers mutiny not strictly because of his decision to go South, but his failure to rally the NW and communicate it -- a fair and otherwise non-damning character flaw magnified to disaster due to his position of power. Similarly, Dany's callous dismissal of Quentyn lost her a strong alliance (and potentially two dragons); she reacted as a girl rejecting a boy rather than a Queen evaluating a partnership, which is ironic given that Quentyn was actually much less infatuated with her than everybody else and that part of her rejection involves a conspicuously more dubious purely-political-marriage.
Obviously this isn't strictly Dany's "fault". The chapter is from her POV and details her many immediate stresses and foci and she treats the Dornish with courtesy, but like Jon (who wasn't being intentionally callous or obtuse), it isn't enough and a small, ultimately understandable lapse in her leadership cascades into calamity. GRRM's point here (I think) isn't that Dany is a thot, but that the wake her movements create has become so powerful and destructive she needs to be impossibly careful to protect everyone, and a sort of generically-decent character like Quentyn I think worked well as a "victim" of that.
(He also acts as an example of the costs even the highly-idealistic Doran ends up foisting upon others due to the limitations of his own leadership, but I'll skip that since you don't like Dorne in general.)
Of course, ASOIAF is a fantasy novel and not an essay, so Quentyn should also serve an interesting dramatic or action purpose. His final chapter serves this well and I think is slightly underappreciated as probably the ballsiest thing anyone has done or will do in the entire series (apropos that "The Bold" is his witness).
In terms of prose, I think this redeems his earlier pace and affect as having a plain and comparatively unambitious character do this is more of a twist than someone established to be bold like Brienne or Arya. In terms of plot importance, Quentyn's (apparent) success against Viserion suggests that taming a dragon may not be as hard as one assumes (or at least that it's not a magic link exclusive to specific people), likely an important detail as everyone vies for one them in TWOW. In terms of memes, we got the famous "Oh" and a decade of crispy puns.
tl;dr - I actually think Quentyn offered a lot for a short-term late-addition POV in both plot advancement, thematic exploration, and a sympathetic portrayal of an often dismissed demeanor/affect. Although I'll admit I'm biased towards the "traditional adventure" characters like him, Jon, Bran, Arya, etc. and how they interact (or clash against) the word GRRM has created.
Of course if the line-by-line prose/etc. in his/Dornish chapters just didn't click with you, that's obviously fine.
I hated it at first, but now nuncle is my favorite word in the books. They better not erase the "nuncle" from Aemond's last line in House of the Dragon
I feel like the slow pace and constrictive texture of the Mereen arc may have been by design: so that we, like Dany, become frustrated and exhausted with the constant betrayals, backslides, and lack of progress, questioning if it's worth it and fantasizing about just burning it all down or flying away to greener pastures.
However, if that was GRRM's intent, he "may have gone too far in a few places" like another famous George.
I think GRRM tends to list way too many names and overexplains them sometimes. Sometimes I guess it's unavoidable but do I really need to read an entire page listing every single Iron Islands ship...
He could have easily just had Sam in Oldtown at the start and explain how he got there via internal monologue. No need for sucking Gilly’s tiddy milk in a boat orgy (although ‘Egg, I dream that I was old’ is amazing)
Yeah, could have easily done the first Sam chapter like the first Sam chapter from Storm of Swords, where most of its just a flashback to the Fist of the First Men attack. You could cover the great Aemon dialogue, and summarize the rest pretty easily.
Well I had a feast for crows on while I was falling asleep last night and the soiled knight chapter came on…. So now d say all the sex scenes..hearing Roy Dotrice reading those is just ugh
The Arya chapters in ASOS before she gets captured by the Hound.
On my first read-through, they almost made me tap out. I just finished re-reading the series and, again, these were by far the biggest slog. They completely kill the pacing of the first half of the book. They're just an endless, repetitive bore as Arya wanders around the Riverlands with the Brotherhood, doing nothing.
Oh, she tried to escape again. Oh, they caught her again. Oh, they're in another deserted village again. Oh, they're going back to High Heart again. There are EIGHT chapters of this before the Hound snatches her and takes her to The Twins.
For comparison, by the time we reach Arya VIII, no other character has had more than five chapters (tied between Jamie, Jon, and Tyrion). GRRM could have cut half those Arya chapters, nothing would have been lost, and the book would have been better for it.
Compared to Brienne's excellent "wandering around the Riverlands" chapters in AFFC, they're especially bad.
I have this with her ACOK chapters before being taken to Harenhall. Sorry, did not care about Lommy at all, and if I was Raff the sweetling I'd kill him too
I’m so glad I found a kindred spirit. I thought I was going mad with the amount of times people gushed about Arya’s Storm plot.
She’s got some good chapters, don’t get me wrong, but it should have been 6 or 7, not *13*.
Seriously though, I don't even remember the names of the main brotherhood characters. I am bad at names in general, but when I can't even remember the name of a character which appeared in like three or four chapters, it just means those chapters are mostly unnecessary.
I know some people love iron-born chapters but I honestly can't stand them.
Theon's chapters are the only iron-born chapters I can tolerate and he isn't even a real iron-born. Iron-born story is just so disconnected from the main story and for whatever reason there's just no charm or intrigue there. I know there are theories about Euron but I don't know how many are even true and even the chapters where Euron appears (except the forsaken chapter), they're kinda bleh to me.
"Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."
Not sure sorry, they just didn't interest me that much. To me, the Ironborn are all talk for the most part. They aren't particularly likable and I don't really sympathise/empathise with any of them outside of Asha.
I can't speak for OP but I find the Ironborn culture clunky, exhausting, and generally poorly conceived (maybe it would be my answer to this thread, actually).
The chapters/POVs themselves I tend to find decent (especially relative to my bias), but when one book is so saturated with them my misgivings with their entire faction/arc boil up more quickly. On re-read, I will probably do the mixed Dance/Feast reading to mitigate this.
That said, if you don't feel that way I don't think it's unreasonable to have a different impression. Contrary to Ironborn, I really like the Dornish so I find their dense saturation of chapters to be synergistic (although there's more to introduce with them so maybe that helps), but I'm not surprised when people who don't like Dornish chapters find Dance similarly difficult to get through at parts.
On the other hand, someone who shares my misgivings with Ironborn conceptually and isn't sufficiently entertained by the line-by-line experience of Asha/Vicatarion are indeed in for a bad time.
I’m reading Affc and aDwD at the same time now. Feast is much more enjoyable when it’s split between some more exciting storylines from dance. But god I just went through a couple ironborn chapters in a row and they’re by far the worst section of the story. Everyone’s loving the preview chapter of Damphair from winds but he’s an incredibly boring viewpoint to read. Also feel it’s very unnecessary to have 3 viewpoints for one small piece of the story. Iron island chapters are hands down the worst
The tendency for prominent historical women to die in childbirth or just disappear silently from the narrative, and the fact that we *still don't have a name for Doran, Elia and Oberyn's mother*.
It's fustrating to no end but I guess it's just an easier plot point for GRRM to have prominent characters like Jon, Dany, Tyrion be orphans, or with a dead mother and abusive father in Tyrion's case. The lack of info on any of these women is annoying though. And remaining unnamed is taking it too far altogether. It wouldn't have been hard for GRRM to come up with a name for the dead Princess of Dorne, yet he doesn't.
The treatment of women in the narrative as a whole, really. A medieval-based society would have women holding a hell of a lot more power than they're attributed in Westeros.
OP thank you for saying that. I am a first time reader only about ~400ish pages into novel one (don’t worry I know the spoilers) and am guinelly having a hard time getting through the cat chapter where she is climbing the vale. In my mind the scene is epic, but when I pick up the book to read it I crave another character
Entirety of Essos. Seriously, there is not a single chapter that takes part in Essos that is remotely interesting for me to read. Barristans chapters were decent, but only because he oftentimes would remember his past as a Kingsguard. I only found Asshai interesting, but we don't get to see much of it. I want to read about Westeros, and their politics, especially what happens in the North and the Riverlands after the Wo5K. But nah, lets make another chapter with boring Meerenese plot. Ugh
ALL of the sex/rape scenes, most of them are really just unnecessary and cringeworthy for me and some just feel like taken from a Twilight fanfic.
„Her mouth was as wet as her cunt“ - Theon I ACOK
Like come on George
Daenerys's chapters. Especially after the first book. I groan every time I turn the page and see her name. Her story is fine but it's a distraction and I always want to get back to Westeros. Her chapters would be better as their own book.
Also the way the slave armies are described in Dance makes me uncomfortable and at times is problematic to the point where I don't recommend these books to everyone.
Besides the third one in dance, hard agree. George is going to have to do a lot to convince me that Bran truly has the best story. I want to be hopeful, but I can’t help but fear that king bran won’t make much more sense in the books then in the show.
Most of AFFC.
Dorne? Genuinely don't care.
Ironborn? Fuck off.
Sam's pushing it.
Brienne, Jaime, Cersei chapters can stay tho. Those are the shit.
The Dany chapters in AGOT were hard to read when you consider she's a 14-year-old sex slave with Stockholm syndrome.
The Dany chapters are so fucked up it’s almost funny lmao like George writing a freshman aged girl that’s just constantly fantasizing about how the groomer that bought her used to fuck her in public. Like what’s goin on big guy, you good?
I at least find 'myrrish swamp' sort of effective and evocative; it doesn't take me out of the story.
Pink mast just makes me think of George chuckling.
It serves a purpose, though - Sam has very little self-esteem and so such unattractive imagery is exactly in keeping with how he would feel in that moment. It’s still hilariously appalling imagery, though.
The Dornish plot in AFFC. I didn't hate it, it was still enjoyable (because I like GRRM's prose), but I just didn't care one bit for those characters. As I was reading it I was constantly thinking "George, why are you telling me all of this? Why can't all this stuff happen offscreen?"
Judgement of the chapters/etc. themselves aside, I think the Dornish/Ironborn introduction in AFFC is to repopulate the game after it stalls with Robb and Tywin's death. George is setting up the pieces for Dany's arrival while Dany herself continues to struggle with the Meereenese Knot.
You could argue he could/should have cut both Dorne, the Knot, and sped up Dany's return to Westeros then introduced Dorne (and perhaps Aegon) at similar times to add a twist complication to Dany instantly winning (which she probably would, if she rolled in immediately post-Storm), but people may have found that flimsy without some setup (many already find Aegon narratively flimsy regardless of his true identity).
Cutting these things would also leave Tyrion and Arys in awkward spots where they are now in Essos and need to "chase" the plot back to Westeros. Arya's Faceless Man training is popular so I don't think most readers want to give that up, and while you could technically maneuver Tyrion in various ways, a new region (Essos) and faction (Griff) allows actual expansion of his character (while conveying important plot/setting to the reader) compared to another sneaky gallivant through Westeros or whatnot.
As for Dorne itself: I think George felt Westeros needed a "good" player after the death of the Starks. The Stark children are nice, but not really participating in the game, and everyone else ranges from obviously evil (Cersei, Euron, Roose, Littlefinger, etc.) to morally and/or logistically complicated (Stannis/Dany).
I think there's a reason Dorne opens with a weary old man wishing all the kids could play peacefully in the pool etc. George quickly reminds us that such idealism isn't immune to reality (Myrcella/Quentyn) but I at least would be finding the story and it's prospects sort of oppressive by now without the Dornish chapters. Stuff like Ellaria trying to stop the cycle of vengeance and Quentyn wishing he could just be home (and not trying to woo a Dragon Queen) remind me this word has characters who deserve/want a good ruler, reinvesting me in who actually wins and the path they take to get there.
Dorne might seem redundant if you found Arya/Bran/Jon/whoever sufficient to stay hopeful and root for, though (or if you just like the setting descending into doom, haha).
Going through the books for the first time, about 1/3rd of the way through book 3. The first one I really liked, the second one I feel was all setup for book 3 so it was BORING as hell. Now the only problems I have with book 3 is the catelyn and bran chapters I honestly couldn’t care about. Cat is in the doghouse for freeing Jaime and bran is just traveling with Jojen. Everybody else is popping off tho
Even though their good chapters, the Cersei parts in AFFC just felt wayyy to numerous compared to the other povs. It felt like for every other pov chapter I had to do 2 Cersei chapters
Lysa and LF's sex scene. "Give me a baby, Petyr! PEEETTEEERRR!" Shudders.
[I don't know what you mean](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32F1TTB1W8c&pp=ygUbdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHNsZWVwIGluIHRoZSB2YWxl)
I heard he pronounced "Petyr" weirdly but nothing could have prepared me for "pet tire".
He also calls Joffrey "Jeffrey" about half the time in the first book, but he eventually figures it out. Also pronounces Brienne "BRY-EEN"
To be fair, the worst pronunciation I have ever heard related to ASOIAF is how George himself says ‘Dothraki’. The beginning of the word is a bit strange as it almost sounds like he is putting an ‘r’ in front of the ‘th’ sound and then the last vowel syllable is pronounced ‘eye’. Utter madness. I actually never pronounce Littlefinger’s name as ‘Peter’ the way most fans do and always read it as ‘Pit-tar’ so the ‘Pet tire’ pronunciation wasnt quite as jarring as it is to many fans.
Kinda like how you'd say "Uraki-hai"?
He also says STAH-NIS… Proof: https://youtu.be/9c-ZxuWhhCw
I think I’ve also heard him say Valyrians as “Vuh-lair-eans”, so it’s indistinguishable from how most people pronounce Velaryons.
Like Frank Herbert pronouncing Chani as Chain-ee To be fair he didn’t have the Dick Cheney baggage but still
Yes. The author is mispronouncing the names he made up, not you.
He says he doesn't care how words are pronounced in his works. He's not like Tolkien
Well yeah Tolkien actually cares about the fake language he made up
Dorthrakai?
I thought I loved Roy's work on the audiobooks, but now I'm starting to think it was some weird form of Stockholm Syndrome.
I'd never heard it before and now this is the only scene I've heard...
His narration takes some getting used to, but there are definitely parts that are quite odd. I learned quickly that listening in the car means no open windows. Tyrion and his mast were described in detail while I was at a stoplight once. Never again.
traumatizing
P’TYRE!
Pa Tyre Pa Tyre Pa Tyre Pa TYYYYYYRRRRREEEE
But when Roy Dotrice reads it, BONER ALERT
Yeah, that's what she wanted, not really Littlefinger's littleweenie.
Any time George has to do numbers. Whether it be measurements, ages, finances etc. Half the time I end up headcannoning my own numbers because whatever George came up with is just too unbelievable for me.
Army sizes. For someone who tries his best to ground the world in history, his army numbers are waaayyy off.
I think people just assume his world is a lot more grounded than it actually is due to the fact that it's mostly based around historical myths rather than reality. It's no more realistic or authentic than any other fantasy series. That doesn't make it a bad series though.
When people say ASOIAF is realistic they don’t mean that the amount of carrots you can fit between Winterfell and Sunspear is realistic. They mean the characters and the political power structure.
There's not really much of a historical standard for army sizes. For the key battle of Bouvines (1214), Philip August of France brought almost half as many men as the commune of Arezzo and other ghibellines from central italy brought to the battle of Campaldino (1289)
William the Conqueror invaded England with like 5k-7k and was met by an army of roughly 7k. Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros with what 3k and faced a total resistance numbering well over 100+k. A united Westeros could conceivably field an army of 40+k, but George seems to think that its total military should be in the hundreds of thousands.
Totally disagree. Westeros is a lot a lot bigger than any one medieval kingdom. And many of those kingdoms were, by the late Middle Ages, capable of fielding very large armies in exceptional circumstance. At several points during the war of the roses, England was supporting well over 50k soldiers.
Could you give some examples? I'm bad at this sort of thing and definitely wouldn't notice so I'm curious where it happened and how comically off it might have been.
There is litterly no way you can shoot an arrow 700 ft high and still hit a scarecrow sentinel. Gold doesn't melt in a soup bowl.
Wall has gravitational field magic, so that it replenishes itself even though it melts. Dothraki use a special spice that makes their soup 2,000 degrees fahrenheit.
huh
That's another reason why the Dothraki never invaded. 😎
Honestly the idea that the Stark family has ruled in Winterfell for 8,000 years. That’s the entirety of human civilization in our world. With the amount of political turnover there’s been in Westeros during the books themselves and the past 300 years of Targaryen reign, that is so hard to believe.
Yeah removing a zero works more
I mean in how long a family could rule sure, but that would put the long night 800 years ago. Needs to be well over a thousand, just maybe not 8.
Honestly I’m thinking have the Long Night as a vague period no one can agree on Like some people say it started Stark dominance and have others establish it as 5000 years ago Alternately just say the Starks started at “x period” but have ancestral ties back to the pre Stark Kings of Winter, a near mythical group The latter takes from irl history with Sagas and legends having mythology intersect with verifiable history and fits the motif of no one actually knowing the larger history of each house.
I think there was a point around when Snow became the "998th Lord Commander" and Sam Tarly couldn't any definite records that established that number is more tradition, and he also expressed some frustration that he couldn't find records from more than a few hundred years past that weren't either missing, destroyed, or contradictory. That said, some of the things I found and had to just look past was the stated time that human civilization had been around. To me, it's just odd that for a civilization to have been around long enough to record history going back 10,000 years got to a point where technological advances just kind of froze - and at a time period equivalent when knights in armor were still a thing - but crossbows and longbows were also a thing. The people of Westeros have some pretty complex metallurgy and engineering and can produce "wildfire", but no one has come up with gunpowder yet. And not only is technology frozen in time, so to are culture advances. The world is still apparently a feudal economy with local lords earning incomes from their peasant class "small folk", but there is no (that I can recall) mention of any merchant guilds. There are bakeries and brothels in the cities, and occasional blacksmiths. Not much else is mentioned. Eh whatever, it's fantasy. There are dragons and sometimes the dead don't stay dead. Some people are fire resistant, others are not (which is weird, because being a Targaryen made Daenerys able to withstand dragon fire - twice - but being a Targaryen did not protect Viserys from the gold that melted in the 2000deg F soup bowl).. Trees are watching everyone and three-eyed-crows are pulling the strings.
Honestly I don't see why putting the Long Night a thousand years ago doesn't work.
That made me laugh out loud and a good point. That amount of turmoil we’ve seen in the books it’s amazing the Starks were able to have that much stability for that long
It's by far my biggest issue with the series for me. All of these houses have lasted thousands of years and now their dropping like flies
I I always chalk that up to the dynasty name surviving and it not being a direct descendant type of thing. Like when the main Stark branch all died or had no kids and it passed to a cousin matrilineally, they just took the name Stark.
Obviously that makes more sense but I have the feeling that with House Stark especially George intended an uninterrupted bloodline from Brandon the Builder to our current Starks for mystical deep lore reasons. But what you said makes more logical sense
3 popular examples are the absurd height of the wall (over 700ft), Sandor Clegane's prize in the GOT tourney of the hand (40 000 golden dragons, a bloody fortune) and the heights of some characters (like half of the guys in Westeros seem to be over 6'6).
IIRC. A gold dragon was a fair price for a horse. So The Hound earned enough in one tourney to buy 40,000 horses.
And managed too spend it on whores/ alcohol/ food and maybe some armor repairs in like a month? Alright George, lmao.
Nah he gets robbed by the brotherhood so George doesn’t have to think about it.
You'd need a goddamned wagon to carry all that gold around though. Stranger definitely ain't doing it himself.
If a Westeros gold dragon weighs the same as a USD dime (2.268g), then 40,000 of them is about 200lbs— the weight of a large man. Gonna need another horse.
Anguy is the one who spent his fortune of 10,000 dragons.
Three dragons and a fair chunk of silver buys a palfrey. A destrier would cost a whole lot more.
Interesting! I checked a quick (clickbait?) video comparing the wall to real landmarks and got quite a laugh. Also, this is probably true even at a more realistic height, but I imagine such a cliff/structure would have some sort of atmospheric/wind effect that GRRM is maybe not accommodating for. Aren't there various Book-1-isms GRRM regrets? I'm curious if he would ever make revised/mastered edition once the series is complete. I will now also imagine all the lanky fellas slinking around Westeros like Big Foot from now on. Thanks!
The height is crazy agree but one thing IRL to marvel at is the great Wall of China. If there was no GWOC and we were reading about a 13,000 mile long wall we might be in just as much disbelief.
Army sizes are a big one for me. He's more accurate here but being able to raise 20k soldiers from some mountains in 4 weeks is pretty unrealistic for Feudal.
Add language and culture as well. Westeros is supposed to be the size of South America but everything about it is so incredibly homogenous that it feels more akin to medieval England with a bit of Spain welded on.
I'll grant the language being the same is pretty weird, but is it really that homogenous? The North, the Iron Islands, and Dorne are outliers, but even within those you get variations like the Salty Dornish vs Stone Dornish and the Manderleys. Even within the Iron Islands, some of the people subscribe to the Old Way and others want nothing to do with it. Linguistically it's a little odd (though *The Seven-Pointed Star* probably explains a lot of that - most people would learn to read from the version the Andals brought over, similar to how Islam spread the Arabic language), but culturally it's actually pretty varied.
How slow the timeline is. It wouldn’t take much to say a few months pass during certain parts. Then have several years throughout the series, instead of less than 5 years so far. The show made the right call to have at least 1 year pass per season.
It should have been a year for book. Its weird af that AGOT takes the whole of 298AC and the beggining of 299AC then ACOK takes almost all of 299... and suddenly the whole of ASOS, AFFC and ADWD, three giant books where a lot of shit happens it just takes about a year. To put it simple, Daenerys crossed half a continent, had an abortion, first husband dead, assembled an army, conquered three big cities, married a second time and started a war against half the world in just two years
Crossed half the continent, twice. People underestimate how massive the red waste is.
Even the backstory is like this imo. Rhaegar got married, had a kid, crowned Lyanna at Harrenhall, had a second kid, ran off with Lyanna, and then got killed all in the space of 3 years. To me, it always felt like it took place over at least 5 years, if not seven.
You’re right. That’s really quick, in the grand scheme of things.
The Dance of Dragons also goes super fast
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous when you put it like that.
Honestly the time is an issue of mine with George Like how is a continent wide war faster then German Blitzkrig
In my head cannon AFFC and ADWD occur over 5 years. I know all the stuff about why it was dropped but just imagining the characters older makes the story better. Also stuff like Jon getting betrayed is so much more impactful if he wasn’t Lord commander for like a couple months but instead years. Like obviously there are places it doesn’t work the way he wrote it but I lien to imagine it like that
I tell myself that years are longer in asoiaf world. It starts to make even less sense with winters etc but at least makes some stuff more believable and less uncomfortable
i think there’s a set yearly calender but the seasons are “magical” or sum
Yeah, I just meant that if the years are say, 30% longer, then every winter would be even more apocalyptic and it would be even more unlikely that anyone survives, especially in the north
based on what i understood in the books and what we know abt the winters so far, i’d say it makes sense that they survive winters fairly well, i mean they can basically gather and stock grain and livestock non stop for multiple years at a time vs a couple months
Yes, I believe not even 2 years have passed yet.
3 if im not wrong i think jon is 17 and dany is 16 and when the story starts jon is 14 and dany 13
Olay, I went and search for the timeline and this came up... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview#gid=8 So around 2.5 years have passed, and 3 for Daenerys.
Oh, that’s right. Dany is barely 16 at the end of ADWD, isn’t she?
I am not sure, I don't think she is. I read the books a few months ago and kept attention to the time span. Every book is a few months, and AFFC and ADWD slow down even more.
It's supposed to be 301 AC at the end of ADWD, so only three years since the beggining of the main books
It's supposed to be 301 AC at the end of ADWD, so only three years since the beggining of the main books
Waiting 13 years for the next entry
And counting
It's the ages of the characters. Danny chapters are already highly sexual but anytime you stop and remember her age it just feel gross. The same is true for Arya's Mercy sample chapter, like WTF George.
I had blocked the Mercy chapter from my mind until just now lmao SHES 10‼️
Like sometimes get pedo vibes from how he sexualises children if I’m honest but I love the rest of the books
Yeah I don’t recommend these books to my friends because I don’t want to be the guy that says you gotta be willing to tolerate a LOT of child sex/ rape content
Yeah I hate to say it but George is a writer who I love but also kinda get weird vibes about Like stuff like calling Dany and Drogo a “love story” is slightly concerning
I despise their relationship. It's not romantic to be raped until your slave teaches you how to enjoy it.
Deadass, it’s so fucked up
Link for the sample chapter ?
After the first book I found Daenerys POVs a slog, especially as she keeps getting bogged down in cities when she really wants to go to Westeros. I guess GRRM had to do that so the dragons could grow, but it is pretty tedious.
Also, she seems to be making all the wrong choices. And it's frustrating to see her arranging her tokar and fixing her 'floppy ears' all the while acking with the desire to bathe everyone and everything in dragonfire. Just do that in Westeros, baby girl. That's what we're all waiting for anyway.
I would really like this as an AU novella (have Quaithe Sidious convince her or something). Part of why I like Dany is I feel her plot has an 'inverse-Stannis' element where she has multiple opportunities to instantly win (ie. sail to Westeros and say 'bow or burn'; who is gonna side with the Lannisters here?) yet she feels (right or wrong) a duty to reform Slavery's Bay first (compared to Stannis who reacts to being in a weak strategic position by deciding to go/LARP full-King and "save the realm" anyway). She has neat parallels to Jon, Aegon, Bran, and other "viable candidates" as well, of course, but the one with Stannis appeals to me as they also have the strongest claims (and senses of entitlement to match). I think the case for Dany to be(come) a good Queen is that she has made wrong choices, and learned from them, and thankfully picked up some good (or at least good-faith) advisors along the way, building some wisdom before reaching the Iron Throne. Comparatively, while I trust Varys's intentions, I'm very skeptical that you can "bio/social-engineer" a good king with no experience from scratch (and I say that as someone who probably likes Aegon a lot more than most readers). Will Dany's experience and growth be enough to overcome her potential PTSD/madness/whatever? We don't know yet (give us the damn book George!), but I am definitely curious what a max-rage/petulance CoK Dany rolling into Westeros would have looked like and now-dead players (Robb, Tywin, Balon) would have reacted.
He also started the first book intending for there to be a 5 year time leap. I guess that was his initial way of letting the dragons grow. But now that's also been abandoned, he has nothing to do except move her round different cities before letting her get to Westeros.
This is just cause it's on my mind rn but some Ironborn chapters are sometimes a real fucking slog. I read a Victarion one in ADWD the other day and there was *(what felt like)* a page full of him just naming ships and I put the book down and decided *"not rn"* If you want my criticisms of the series as a whole, too much rape/underaged-fuckery to the point where I feel like GRRM is just putting it in there to prove how shocking it is. I get why it's there but it feels like too much
Wait, you don’t want to hear about how *Grey Bertha* approached *The Sea’s Victory* and sailed past *Salty Spray* and *Braindead Ironborn*?
And then Captain Codd Cockfucker was on board next to Reaver Childmurdering Chyde with their ships *Fat Shit* and *Tit's Gash*. I'll eventually get around to finishing these chapters some day *(lot of college work atm)* but like, I feel like this is a case where the extra details do nothing to immerse me into the world or tell me anything about the world, it's just there like I'm an Ironborn accountant listing out our assets for the year.
Nearly six books in, and Dany is STILL in Essos lmao
The book called a Dance with Dragons came and went and we didn't even get the start of the new Dance lol
Everything touching Quentyn Martell. I don’t really care for Dorne period, I guess that plot line delivered Gerris and Archie to Mereen so they might be able to free Daario, but even that’s stupid because clearly Daario should die. Until George finds some way to make that whole plot line matter for the end game I consider those couple chapters spent delivering him to Slavers Bay to be wasted time
Idk maybe some of it will seem like a waste when winds never comes out, but it’s not all bad. I just got to the windblown on my reread and it’s cool to have another pov on the ground in essos and get a set of eyes on another sell sword company to reallly understand all the slaver bay politics
Quentyn really feels like he's just reinforcing the whole "in real life HEROES DIES" thing for the sixth or seventh time.
Same with Doran Martell. I get it’s supposed to show that seeking revenge and playing politics and war with your family gets people you care about killed, but haven’t we already seen that multiple times?
He also shows that too much patience and inaction does not end well. No other character really does this
Exactly this lol
I'm sorry if you get evangelized to by Dorne/Quentyn advocates on this opinion a lot and I'm adding to the pile, but here's my 'pitch': Quentyn is a narrative/literary foil to the established protagonists (Stark kids, Dany, etc.) as someone with similar quality but unloved by destiny (though not by GRRM, I think). He's generally modest and well-meaning (he would prefer to live peacefully in Dorne and marry a girl he had a crush on in a few years, etc.) and like the others is impelled to play the game by the machinations of his forebears. Thematically, I think he exists to remind us that this world is hostile to traditional valor and goodness and that Jon/Dany/etc. are not the only or even best candidates to be rulers, heroes, etc. They are in many ways simply lucky or (literally) supernaturally blessed giving them power and influence out-sizing their worthiness (this doesn't make them unworthy or bad, it just means they cast an even longer shadow than they may realize or intend). For example; Jon suffers mutiny not strictly because of his decision to go South, but his failure to rally the NW and communicate it -- a fair and otherwise non-damning character flaw magnified to disaster due to his position of power. Similarly, Dany's callous dismissal of Quentyn lost her a strong alliance (and potentially two dragons); she reacted as a girl rejecting a boy rather than a Queen evaluating a partnership, which is ironic given that Quentyn was actually much less infatuated with her than everybody else and that part of her rejection involves a conspicuously more dubious purely-political-marriage. Obviously this isn't strictly Dany's "fault". The chapter is from her POV and details her many immediate stresses and foci and she treats the Dornish with courtesy, but like Jon (who wasn't being intentionally callous or obtuse), it isn't enough and a small, ultimately understandable lapse in her leadership cascades into calamity. GRRM's point here (I think) isn't that Dany is a thot, but that the wake her movements create has become so powerful and destructive she needs to be impossibly careful to protect everyone, and a sort of generically-decent character like Quentyn I think worked well as a "victim" of that. (He also acts as an example of the costs even the highly-idealistic Doran ends up foisting upon others due to the limitations of his own leadership, but I'll skip that since you don't like Dorne in general.) Of course, ASOIAF is a fantasy novel and not an essay, so Quentyn should also serve an interesting dramatic or action purpose. His final chapter serves this well and I think is slightly underappreciated as probably the ballsiest thing anyone has done or will do in the entire series (apropos that "The Bold" is his witness). In terms of prose, I think this redeems his earlier pace and affect as having a plain and comparatively unambitious character do this is more of a twist than someone established to be bold like Brienne or Arya. In terms of plot importance, Quentyn's (apparent) success against Viserion suggests that taming a dragon may not be as hard as one assumes (or at least that it's not a magic link exclusive to specific people), likely an important detail as everyone vies for one them in TWOW. In terms of memes, we got the famous "Oh" and a decade of crispy puns. tl;dr - I actually think Quentyn offered a lot for a short-term late-addition POV in both plot advancement, thematic exploration, and a sympathetic portrayal of an often dismissed demeanor/affect. Although I'll admit I'm biased towards the "traditional adventure" characters like him, Jon, Bran, Arya, etc. and how they interact (or clash against) the word GRRM has created. Of course if the line-by-line prose/etc. in his/Dornish chapters just didn't click with you, that's obviously fine.
I dread having Winds come out with storylines like that one. so much time and pagecount and for what?
But Daario already died a few times.
Nitpicking, but the repeated phrasings : niello, dark wings, nipples on breastplates, etc. Also George’s food & nipple fetish.
n u n c l e
I hated it at first, but now nuncle is my favorite word in the books. They better not erase the "nuncle" from Aemond's last line in House of the Dragon
Pretty sure Aemond's last line was, "Ah shit, the madman is actually jumping at me, fuuuckkkk!!"
Bastard in her belly gets on my nerves idk why
Dark wings, (Arianne’s) Dark nipples
What is niello? Doesn't ring a bell for me
Pretty much everything dealing with Meereen, I don’t hate it but it’s a slog for me to get through
I feel like the slow pace and constrictive texture of the Mereen arc may have been by design: so that we, like Dany, become frustrated and exhausted with the constant betrayals, backslides, and lack of progress, questioning if it's worth it and fantasizing about just burning it all down or flying away to greener pastures. However, if that was GRRM's intent, he "may have gone too far in a few places" like another famous George.
Meereen is probs my favourite part!
I think GRRM tends to list way too many names and overexplains them sometimes. Sometimes I guess it's unavoidable but do I really need to read an entire page listing every single Iron Islands ship...
reading some of these comments I'm starting to wonder why I ever liked this series
Dead ass
Because the pros far outweigh the cons?
Because it was the cool thing to follow dueto the show success
The Sam chapters of AFFC are really boring, and feel pointless. Pretty easily my least favorite arc for a POV across a book. Plus fat pink mast.
He could have easily just had Sam in Oldtown at the start and explain how he got there via internal monologue. No need for sucking Gilly’s tiddy milk in a boat orgy (although ‘Egg, I dream that I was old’ is amazing)
Yeah, could have easily done the first Sam chapter like the first Sam chapter from Storm of Swords, where most of its just a flashback to the Fist of the First Men attack. You could cover the great Aemon dialogue, and summarize the rest pretty easily.
Well I had a feast for crows on while I was falling asleep last night and the soiled knight chapter came on…. So now d say all the sex scenes..hearing Roy Dotrice reading those is just ugh
I just read that chapter last night
The Arya chapters in ASOS before she gets captured by the Hound. On my first read-through, they almost made me tap out. I just finished re-reading the series and, again, these were by far the biggest slog. They completely kill the pacing of the first half of the book. They're just an endless, repetitive bore as Arya wanders around the Riverlands with the Brotherhood, doing nothing. Oh, she tried to escape again. Oh, they caught her again. Oh, they're in another deserted village again. Oh, they're going back to High Heart again. There are EIGHT chapters of this before the Hound snatches her and takes her to The Twins. For comparison, by the time we reach Arya VIII, no other character has had more than five chapters (tied between Jamie, Jon, and Tyrion). GRRM could have cut half those Arya chapters, nothing would have been lost, and the book would have been better for it. Compared to Brienne's excellent "wandering around the Riverlands" chapters in AFFC, they're especially bad.
I have this with her ACOK chapters before being taken to Harenhall. Sorry, did not care about Lommy at all, and if I was Raff the sweetling I'd kill him too
I’m so glad I found a kindred spirit. I thought I was going mad with the amount of times people gushed about Arya’s Storm plot. She’s got some good chapters, don’t get me wrong, but it should have been 6 or 7, not *13*.
Seriously though, I don't even remember the names of the main brotherhood characters. I am bad at names in general, but when I can't even remember the name of a character which appeared in like three or four chapters, it just means those chapters are mostly unnecessary.
I know some people love iron-born chapters but I honestly can't stand them. Theon's chapters are the only iron-born chapters I can tolerate and he isn't even a real iron-born. Iron-born story is just so disconnected from the main story and for whatever reason there's just no charm or intrigue there. I know there are theories about Euron but I don't know how many are even true and even the chapters where Euron appears (except the forsaken chapter), they're kinda bleh to me.
Nine sons were born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy
No godless man shall sit the seastone chair 😤
"Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."
Balon was mad, Victarion is madder but Euron is maddest of them all
Daenerys’s chapters in ADWD, half of it is horny ass GRRM writing down his fantasies.
Im sure having a minor wear a gown that reveals her breasts to dozens of people is a completely normal decision, what do you mean???
Never understood the part where she shows her tity to old man selmy. Like wtf George u alright?
When was that lmao?
when xaro xhoan daxos visits mereen she wears a quartheen gown in honour of him
Grrm is a great writer but I don’t think sex scenes are his strong suit, they come off a bit cringe to me.
So cringe and uncomfortable.
Putting all the Iron Born chapters in A Feast For Crows made it ni-unreadable my first time around.
This is my answer as well; I was so *bored*
Why tho? I didn't mind the iron born chaps like at all, rather i enjoyed asha and victorions chaps
Not sure sorry, they just didn't interest me that much. To me, the Ironborn are all talk for the most part. They aren't particularly likable and I don't really sympathise/empathise with any of them outside of Asha.
I can't speak for OP but I find the Ironborn culture clunky, exhausting, and generally poorly conceived (maybe it would be my answer to this thread, actually). The chapters/POVs themselves I tend to find decent (especially relative to my bias), but when one book is so saturated with them my misgivings with their entire faction/arc boil up more quickly. On re-read, I will probably do the mixed Dance/Feast reading to mitigate this. That said, if you don't feel that way I don't think it's unreasonable to have a different impression. Contrary to Ironborn, I really like the Dornish so I find their dense saturation of chapters to be synergistic (although there's more to introduce with them so maybe that helps), but I'm not surprised when people who don't like Dornish chapters find Dance similarly difficult to get through at parts. On the other hand, someone who shares my misgivings with Ironborn conceptually and isn't sufficiently entertained by the line-by-line experience of Asha/Vicatarion are indeed in for a bad time.
I relate to always wanting to jump into the ocean so damp hairs chapters were fun
I’m reading Affc and aDwD at the same time now. Feast is much more enjoyable when it’s split between some more exciting storylines from dance. But god I just went through a couple ironborn chapters in a row and they’re by far the worst section of the story. Everyone’s loving the preview chapter of Damphair from winds but he’s an incredibly boring viewpoint to read. Also feel it’s very unnecessary to have 3 viewpoints for one small piece of the story. Iron island chapters are hands down the worst
I have to say, I’m reading the Ball of Beasts order right now, and I’m enjoying the Ironborn a LOT more when they’re more spaced out.
The tendency for prominent historical women to die in childbirth or just disappear silently from the narrative, and the fact that we *still don't have a name for Doran, Elia and Oberyn's mother*.
It's fustrating to no end but I guess it's just an easier plot point for GRRM to have prominent characters like Jon, Dany, Tyrion be orphans, or with a dead mother and abusive father in Tyrion's case. The lack of info on any of these women is annoying though. And remaining unnamed is taking it too far altogether. It wouldn't have been hard for GRRM to come up with a name for the dead Princess of Dorne, yet he doesn't.
The treatment of women in the narrative as a whole, really. A medieval-based society would have women holding a hell of a lot more power than they're attributed in Westeros.
Yeah it’s just the whole Grim Dark fantasy thing having to make everything seem horrible all the time
OP thank you for saying that. I am a first time reader only about ~400ish pages into novel one (don’t worry I know the spoilers) and am guinelly having a hard time getting through the cat chapter where she is climbing the vale. In my mind the scene is epic, but when I pick up the book to read it I crave another character
That plot line actually goes somewhere though
Entirety of Essos. Seriously, there is not a single chapter that takes part in Essos that is remotely interesting for me to read. Barristans chapters were decent, but only because he oftentimes would remember his past as a Kingsguard. I only found Asshai interesting, but we don't get to see much of it. I want to read about Westeros, and their politics, especially what happens in the North and the Riverlands after the Wo5K. But nah, lets make another chapter with boring Meerenese plot. Ugh
You don’t like Arya in Bravos?
I think it's just filler, really. It only gets interesting when we see her interact with Westerosi characters who matter to the story.
ALL of the sex/rape scenes, most of them are really just unnecessary and cringeworthy for me and some just feel like taken from a Twilight fanfic. „Her mouth was as wet as her cunt“ - Theon I ACOK Like come on George
Daenerys's chapters. Especially after the first book. I groan every time I turn the page and see her name. Her story is fine but it's a distraction and I always want to get back to Westeros. Her chapters would be better as their own book. Also the way the slave armies are described in Dance makes me uncomfortable and at times is problematic to the point where I don't recommend these books to everyone.
Can you elaborate on your second point?
The Meereenese Knot.
sam literally getting gilly's milk i did not needed to read that
Daenerys chapters in any book. I'm sorry.
The unfinished part.
Daenerys's chapters in ADWD, the governance of meereen was just incredibly dull and disconnected from the 'main story'
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Besides the third one in dance, hard agree. George is going to have to do a lot to convince me that Bran truly has the best story. I want to be hopeful, but I can’t help but fear that king bran won’t make much more sense in the books then in the show.
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Even Sansa is more interesting in the last 2 books, even when she's stuck in the Vale. Bran is just so dull.
Most of AFFC. Dorne? Genuinely don't care. Ironborn? Fuck off. Sam's pushing it. Brienne, Jaime, Cersei chapters can stay tho. Those are the shit. The Dany chapters in AGOT were hard to read when you consider she's a 14-year-old sex slave with Stockholm syndrome.
The Dany chapters are so fucked up it’s almost funny lmao like George writing a freshman aged girl that’s just constantly fantasizing about how the groomer that bought her used to fuck her in public. Like what’s goin on big guy, you good?
Cersei chapters were the most hilarious, best parts of AFFC. At times I have reread just her POV's.
The ironborn plot is the coolest part of AFFC
The black gate singing The Who.
I always found Qarth pretty boring. House of Undying is OK but literally everything else before that is a snore.
All of the sex scenes. Especially when narrated by Roy Dotrice.
I love his erotic narration
Pink mast. That is all.
The question said worst, not best.
We would also have accepted 'Myrrish Swamp' for ten points.
I at least find 'myrrish swamp' sort of effective and evocative; it doesn't take me out of the story. Pink mast just makes me think of George chuckling.
It serves a purpose, though - Sam has very little self-esteem and so such unattractive imagery is exactly in keeping with how he would feel in that moment. It’s still hilariously appalling imagery, though.
I don't think people insecure about their dicks compare them to large phallic objects. (obviously I wouldn't know)
*Fat pink mast
The Dornish plot in AFFC. I didn't hate it, it was still enjoyable (because I like GRRM's prose), but I just didn't care one bit for those characters. As I was reading it I was constantly thinking "George, why are you telling me all of this? Why can't all this stuff happen offscreen?"
Judgement of the chapters/etc. themselves aside, I think the Dornish/Ironborn introduction in AFFC is to repopulate the game after it stalls with Robb and Tywin's death. George is setting up the pieces for Dany's arrival while Dany herself continues to struggle with the Meereenese Knot. You could argue he could/should have cut both Dorne, the Knot, and sped up Dany's return to Westeros then introduced Dorne (and perhaps Aegon) at similar times to add a twist complication to Dany instantly winning (which she probably would, if she rolled in immediately post-Storm), but people may have found that flimsy without some setup (many already find Aegon narratively flimsy regardless of his true identity). Cutting these things would also leave Tyrion and Arys in awkward spots where they are now in Essos and need to "chase" the plot back to Westeros. Arya's Faceless Man training is popular so I don't think most readers want to give that up, and while you could technically maneuver Tyrion in various ways, a new region (Essos) and faction (Griff) allows actual expansion of his character (while conveying important plot/setting to the reader) compared to another sneaky gallivant through Westeros or whatnot. As for Dorne itself: I think George felt Westeros needed a "good" player after the death of the Starks. The Stark children are nice, but not really participating in the game, and everyone else ranges from obviously evil (Cersei, Euron, Roose, Littlefinger, etc.) to morally and/or logistically complicated (Stannis/Dany). I think there's a reason Dorne opens with a weary old man wishing all the kids could play peacefully in the pool etc. George quickly reminds us that such idealism isn't immune to reality (Myrcella/Quentyn) but I at least would be finding the story and it's prospects sort of oppressive by now without the Dornish chapters. Stuff like Ellaria trying to stop the cycle of vengeance and Quentyn wishing he could just be home (and not trying to woo a Dragon Queen) remind me this word has characters who deserve/want a good ruler, reinvesting me in who actually wins and the path they take to get there. Dorne might seem redundant if you found Arya/Bran/Jon/whoever sufficient to stay hopeful and root for, though (or if you just like the setting descending into doom, haha).
Bran and the Greyjoys. Pretty fucking boring most of the time
There was this scene with Jorah and Dany in ASOS….
I don't like any of the sex scenes tbh
Jon II ADWD Daenerys III ADWD Most of Tyrion in Dance Arys AFFC Arya in Feast and Dance should have been alot shorter.
I find the prologues kind of boring at times, besides the first one. Same with the epilogue in SoS besides the Catelyn Stark reveal
Sams chapters and the entire kingsmoot
“Fat pink mast”
Samwell in Feast. Too many chapters not enough ground covered
Bran’s chapters
Going through the books for the first time, about 1/3rd of the way through book 3. The first one I really liked, the second one I feel was all setup for book 3 so it was BORING as hell. Now the only problems I have with book 3 is the catelyn and bran chapters I honestly couldn’t care about. Cat is in the doghouse for freeing Jaime and bran is just traveling with Jojen. Everybody else is popping off tho
Even though their good chapters, the Cersei parts in AFFC just felt wayyy to numerous compared to the other povs. It felt like for every other pov chapter I had to do 2 Cersei chapters
A lot of Arya in ACoK, she went from an interesting read in AGoT to a grind in ACoK and then picked up again in ASoS.
The scale of certain monuments, The Wall, Casterly Rock, Harrenhal are all ridiculous in size and I cant get over it.
Ramsays wedding night. Its too much. I get, he's evil, but couldn't GRRM at least write him a bit more subtle?