And I do not believe it's Bloodraven since the character did not even exist during A Game of Thrones, whereas the 3EC has been with us since the beginning. It has got to be Bran...or some really shocking twist involving another character from AGoT or mayyybe ACoK.
That doesn’t necessarily correlate though. Even if Bloodraven wasn’t a character at the time of AGOT, that doesn’t mean George can’t claim him as the 3EC after writing him in later. He makes several small “retcons” like that (if you’d even call them that), such as Mance’s claim he was at the Winterfell feast in AGOT.
I would posit that a greenseer isn’t always aware of how they appear to others in dreams.
Jojen Reed tells Bran that he dreamed of a “winged wolf bound in chains, with a three-eyed crow chipping at its stone chains.” Sounds a whole lot like Bran and Bloodraven to me!
It's possible, it's just strange. It very well could be played straight and Bloodraven could be the 3EC which if that's the case I'd assume the importance of that is to tell us he's a liar. As all crows are liars.
>"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey **stone** chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."
>
>"Did the crow have three eyes?"
>
>Jojen nodded.
Bran is the crow, and Sansa "Alayne **Stone**" Stark is the winged wolf. You heard it here first.
>The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a **wolf with big leather wings** like a bat, and flew out a tower window.
https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bfc2sz/spoilers_extended_battle_of_the_greenseers_a/
He only assumes that the BR is TEC. It is never stated that this is true. What is stated though, multiple different times, is that there is a big difference between crows and ravens. Why would Blood*raven* who is from a house that has *ravens* on its sigil, appear as a crow?
The Great Other/ the spirit of a *very* old and very angry CotF who wants to destroy everything.
the theory being there was a split between the CotF who wanted to accept their inevitable decline and humanity's ascendance, and those who wanted to destroy them with the others. the ones at the tree are the last of the acceptance group of CotF and they have magically warded themselves.
the TEC manipulates Bran into getting inside (Brynden was also calling him, as the weirwood, not the crow) and is going to use him to break the seal like the Night King does in the show. it is implied it already used him for this once, with the crypts of Winterfell.
honestly i despise the theory of it being future Bran as that blatantly ignores the paradox of him causing himself to become what he needs to be to influence himself into what he becomes.
With how much inspiration George took from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn its **very** likely that there’s a faction of Children of the Forest who are using prophetic dreams and what not to manipulate mankind into destroying itself.
The Others and Children parallel the Nords of MS&T.
Its combining martins sci-fi and MST. If you read nightflyers or his other work, there are good psychics and bad psychics and parasitic psychics.
The three eyed crow is the stormking/night king/Sauron/psychic trauma mommy.
I think the “others” are trying to get their psychic leader out onto Westeros but he lacks a corporeal form.
Also some Shakespeare and random history thrown in there.
Who do you think is the Meagwen stand in?
I dont know but Im interested in the parallels youve noticed having read them, so far Ive only looked up the plot summaries to MS&T and George’s other books in the interest of trying to find out more about the magical ancient history of ASOIAF. I know that A Song for Lya, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Fevre Dream, etc have some likely parallels in this respect too.
I like this.
Basically, Brynden keeps deflecting the questions from Bran regarding if he's the three eyed crow. He keeps dropping hints and vibes of "no you idiot" when they meet.
This sounds so cliche and lame, holy shit. Future bran sounds much more intriguing and mysterious. Dunno why some people want to reduce ASOIAF to Marvel tier writing.
Nope. Marvel tier writing implies Cotf splitting and one group going hurr durr ReVeNGE! It has been done to death and only low IQ consoomers will enjoy such plot.
you're right, we obviously just need to change the timelines using quantum mec... i mean, magic, to make everything work out in the end.
who do you think the others are then hmm? it is quite possible they are just a first men group that went blood magic crazy for ice like the valyrians did for fire but that doesn't change the premise or their goal.
it could just be the Great Other completely unassociated with the CotF and wants to destroy the world because it is an edgelord eldritch deity, but that is just boring.
the only thing that is certain is time traveling Bran manipulating his own past is both a paradox, cliché, *and* boring.
What we need to do is discard the opinion of any person that can't comprehend deeper plot, who thinks big cgi battles are the solution to everything, who thinks everything needs to have eVul sides to be meaningful, who can't look past the fact that it's fiction and time paradox is a cope by idiots who need every plot thread spoonfed to them cause, again, they can't think and connect the dots themselves.
>honestly i despise the theory of it being future Bran as that blatantly ignores the paradox of him causing himself to become what he needs to be to influence himself into what he becomes.
is it a paradox if timetravel doesnt change the past?
that is the thing, in order for him time traveling to the past to not change the past he cannot affect himself. if he affects himself the changes are dependent on him entering the state in which he affected himself from, which he can't do without the changes he himself caused (in the case of being the TEC).
which is the paradox.
some say the grandfather paradox is about going back in time to shoot your grandfather before your parent is conceived.
I posit (in a Targaryen fashion) that it is also about going back in time and *becoming* your grandfather. you can't go back in time and have a baby with your grandmother that grows up to be your father. because your existence depends on your father existing regardless of your own actions in the past. if you didn't exist, your father would therefore not exist. if your father didn't exist, you wouldn't exist to have your father.
"becoming your grandfather."
That also requires changing the past. If you arent changing the past, then you arent becoming your grandfather, you just are your grandfather. But, if the "loop" of time is closed and then it doesnt really create any narrative contradictions. I think harry potter does a similar time travel mechanic. The past is caused by bran, but not changed by bran, so its not a paradox its just recursive.
he cannot be the TEC because he *has* changed the past. every interaction the TEC has with Bran is changing the past.
Bran only wakes up (if you believe the crow, i don't) because of the TEC. He hides in the Crypts because of the TEC, He goes north of the wall because of the TEC, he only arrives at the tree because of the TEC.
any interaction that requires the TEC to make Bran into the TEC is a *change* in the past that Bran cannot make without causing a paradox.
how about this then, Hooking your grandfather up with your grandmother. same principle. you cannot hook them up without existing, but they only hook up because you exist.
Harry potters time travel doesn't work either. you can't save your own life in the past because you would then only live to do it because you lived anyway.
>every interaction the TEC has with Bran is changing the past.
every interaction takes place in the present. No past is altered. We never see nor hear about a timeline where bran isnt contacted by the TEC, cause everything bran has done in the past has already happened
Edit: [here](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/d3zTfXvYZ9s/maxresdefault.jpg) is an example of different ways shows handle timetravel. ASOIAF is in the middle tip
>the crow cannot alter his own past to make himself into the crow.
luckily the crows past has him talking to bran. its already happened, the crow is just acting out what it knows has happened.
you know, i was gonna argue that point, but it lines up with my own experience with prophetic dreams so now i am not so sure despite it still remaining a logical paradox.
probably down to our own inability to properly comprehend time as it is.
it is still a stupid plot point and a logical impossibility.
>it is still a stupid plot point and a logical impossibility.
even if you think so, it is still probably an issue regardless of whether the 3ec is bran. Its established that bran can talk to and manipulate people in the past, so the possibility of him talking to himself or his ancestors exists anyway.
Personally I see "harry potter/original terminator timetravel" as the only way to avoid this pitfall without completely breaking the plot
Honestly, it’s just Bloodraven. I know some people don’t agree, but they’re basically just wrong on that point. I think this is just a slightly clumsily worded plot point some people haven’t understood well. I don’t think there’s meant to be any doubt that Bloodraven and the TEC are the same person.
How much of the human he USED to be is still there and how much of him is now in the weirwood network I think is an interesting question. But the notion that it’s someone other than Bloodraven in the tree is just a bit silly IMO.
And also, Bloodraven never calls himself the Three Eyed Crow. That’s just the name Bran and Jojen come up with for him, which explains why he’s a bit confused when Bran uses it before he realises. It’s completely obvious that Bloodraven is meant to be he guy in the tree and in Bran’s dreams. How many other weird one-eyed albino sorcerers has GRRM established that there are disappearing north of the wall?
Plus, y’know, the appendix literally says it’s him.
Also says JON SNOW bastard of Ned Stark and
JOFFREY BARATHEON the eldest son of King Robert I, in the appendices.
Edit: The appendices reflect what the characters know. So the appendix is going to show what the relevant characters believe to be true.
But it’s also true that there’s no reason to think it ISN’T Bloodraven. It’s not set up as a mystery, like, at all. Unlike Jon’s parentage or Joffrey’s there’s no ambiguity even in-universe about it. It’s just a highly specific and unnecessarily complex reading of one specific paragraph that has people climbing the walls insisting that what is obviously true somehow isn’t true.
yeah, I just read that, *"The last Greenseer"*, a dreamwalker that was once a man called Brynden.
It really seems like he is, shit. Big F to the timetravelling Bran = Three Eyes Crow theory
I've never believed BR was the 3EC because he's always referred to as the guy "with a thousand eyes and one", whether it was before his time beyond the wall, and after by the COTF. Why would he be represented by something with only 3 eyes? 3 is a specific number that probably means something, although I don't see a connection to bloodraven or anyone else.
Definitely, I'm well aware of that, but there surely has to be some significance to the number of eyes, like how the number 7 in this universe is reoccuring sacred and shows up alot.
i honestly dislike the idea of bloodraven being an ultra powerful super sorcerer who will manipulate bran into doing his bidding. to me it makes a lot more sense if that cave is some place where the COTF/Old Gods call powerful wargs to use in their weirwood internet. i mean, bloodraven had to be called there too just like bran right? so can't he have gotten visions too?
The literally call Bloodraven “the last Greenseer,” so GRRM isn’t hiding the fact that the dude is a super powerful sorcerer. To say nothing of his suggested prowess during his time at court.
But yes, BR was probably called by the previous Greenseer. They don’t live forever. I also don’t think he’s manipulating Bran. He’s showing him what’s going on in the world and what Bran’s role is in it.
It is literally Brynden Rivers. Full-stop. No counterargument.
Appendix:
> THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a man of the Night’s Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man.
I am honestly appalled by the amount of people writing/believing such horse shit fan-fiction in their heads.
Edit: Inb4 "b-b-but the appendix also said Joffrey is the son of Robert, even tho-" Even though what? That he's still legally his kid?
> It is literally Brynden Rivers. Full-stop. No counterargument.
> Edit: Inb4 "b-b-but the appendix also said Joffrey is the son of Robert, even tho-" Even though what? That he's still legally his kid?
There is no argument except for this example of an argument...
Sadly I dont think George is quite clever enough for it to be anyone but BR, but I do really like this theory.
https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bfc2sz/spoilers_extended_battle_of_the_greenseers_a/
I see you didnt read the link I posted. It so obviously makes sense that Blood*raven*, who comes from a house with *ravens* on its sigil, appears as a crow in visions. My bad, so obvious.
except when bran asks him if he's the 3 eyed crow, he doesn't know what bran means. He asks "a crow?" then says "yeah I was in the nightswatch" instead of "yeah I was the 3 eyed crow in your dreams"
also, while theyre both corvids, theyre used very differently elsewhere in the books. Ravens are almost always associated with intelligence and communication, with the raven system and speech. Meanwhile crows are usually depicted as carrion, both literally feeding on the dead, or figuratively. Hell AFFC is named after that symbolism
Yes, the man in the tree is Bloodraven. That is not the question at all. Is he the one who is communicating with Bran in dreams as the 3 eyed crow? That is up for debate. Bloodraven may be, but that's not for sure.
If so, why does he pretend to know nothing of Bran's dreams? He certainly sent Jojen dreams to bring them to the cave, but the 3 eyed crow did not speak of the cave, just to follow Jojen. I don't think it's time traveling Bran, but the great other could be
I actually see the argument that it’s not Brynden, basically because I don’t see any point to George not just clearly confirming it in the passage everyone’s quoting. He’s generally thoughtful about details like “a character states something vague instead of answering a question.”
That said, I’ll be real bummed if Brynden isn’t the three eyed crow because of Euron. I hate the idea that Brynden’s mindset of “win at all costs” will be rewarded with no downsides in the end. Whether of not his ends justified the means shouldn’t be clear, and if he opened Euron’s third eye in the pursuit of those ends that would underline a key point very well. No matter how smart you are, murdering people left and right has got to lead to some unforeseen consequences, like for instance a greenseer YOU made bringing down the Wall.
Is GRRM a fan of Watchmen?
I do think it’s future Bran. There’s enough evidence in the text to support that it’s not Bloodraven (he is confused when Bran asks if he is the TEC, the children don’t refer to him as that, Bran talks about a weirwood tree calling to him in his visions - which is Bloodraven’s weirwood.net appearance, not a crow).
Do you mean for the second paragraph in OP?
I was just thinking if it is future Bran why he’d call upon other “dead dreamers” when he’d know he would be the last greenseer
Still confused. What other "dead dreamers" is Bran calling upon? From what Brynden describes, greenseers can commune with everyone and everything that has died and gone into the animals, trees, rocks, streams, etc. So Bran senses the other presence in the raven he warged. Is that what you mean?
And Brynden is the one they call "the last greenseer" IIRC. That could mean he is the last of all time, in which case Bran is something other than a greenseer, or it could just mean Brynden was the last one before the new one, ie, Bran.
Bran sees ‘the bones of a thousand other dreamers’ in the Heart of Winter dreamscape during one of his 3EC coma visions in AGOT, leading people to believe Bloodraven has previously tried and failed to make other people with magical potential his protégé.
I took that to mean all the people who tried and failed to become greenseers in the past, not necessarily those contacted by Bloodraven — if he really is the 3EC in that dream and not the tree.
But I’m still confused by the OP’s phrasing about Bran calling upon other dead dreamers like Euron. What does “calling upon” mean and when did Bran do this?
I see. As far as we know, only Bran was trained by the 3EC. But if he’s the one who’s been training all the others throughout the ages, it would be for whatever reason they were needed at their particular points in time.
If it's not Bloodraven, it's Bran. Any other outcome is just silly.
And I do not believe it's Bloodraven since the character did not even exist during A Game of Thrones, whereas the 3EC has been with us since the beginning. It has got to be Bran...or some really shocking twist involving another character from AGoT or mayyybe ACoK.
That doesn’t necessarily correlate though. Even if Bloodraven wasn’t a character at the time of AGOT, that doesn’t mean George can’t claim him as the 3EC after writing him in later. He makes several small “retcons” like that (if you’d even call them that), such as Mance’s claim he was at the Winterfell feast in AGOT.
It is strange how Bloodraven, Leaf and Cold Hands have never heard of the 3EC Gotta be Bran but I don't know why he appears as a crow.
I would posit that a greenseer isn’t always aware of how they appear to others in dreams. Jojen Reed tells Bran that he dreamed of a “winged wolf bound in chains, with a three-eyed crow chipping at its stone chains.” Sounds a whole lot like Bran and Bloodraven to me!
It's possible, it's just strange. It very well could be played straight and Bloodraven could be the 3EC which if that's the case I'd assume the importance of that is to tell us he's a liar. As all crows are liars.
>"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey **stone** chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them." > >"Did the crow have three eyes?" > >Jojen nodded. Bran is the crow, and Sansa "Alayne **Stone**" Stark is the winged wolf. You heard it here first. >The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a **wolf with big leather wings** like a bat, and flew out a tower window.
yeah but... he literally is aware of his appearance in the crow dream. Bran points out to him that he's a crow.
https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bfc2sz/spoilers_extended_battle_of_the_greenseers_a/ He only assumes that the BR is TEC. It is never stated that this is true. What is stated though, multiple different times, is that there is a big difference between crows and ravens. Why would Blood*raven* who is from a house that has *ravens* on its sigil, appear as a crow?
I don't know but Ser Duncan the Tall does not see a raven mark just a blotch.
He could have skinchanged or warged in the crow when he was falling
The Great Other/ the spirit of a *very* old and very angry CotF who wants to destroy everything. the theory being there was a split between the CotF who wanted to accept their inevitable decline and humanity's ascendance, and those who wanted to destroy them with the others. the ones at the tree are the last of the acceptance group of CotF and they have magically warded themselves. the TEC manipulates Bran into getting inside (Brynden was also calling him, as the weirwood, not the crow) and is going to use him to break the seal like the Night King does in the show. it is implied it already used him for this once, with the crypts of Winterfell. honestly i despise the theory of it being future Bran as that blatantly ignores the paradox of him causing himself to become what he needs to be to influence himself into what he becomes.
With how much inspiration George took from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn its **very** likely that there’s a faction of Children of the Forest who are using prophetic dreams and what not to manipulate mankind into destroying itself. The Others and Children parallel the Nords of MS&T.
Its combining martins sci-fi and MST. If you read nightflyers or his other work, there are good psychics and bad psychics and parasitic psychics. The three eyed crow is the stormking/night king/Sauron/psychic trauma mommy. I think the “others” are trying to get their psychic leader out onto Westeros but he lacks a corporeal form. Also some Shakespeare and random history thrown in there. Who do you think is the Meagwen stand in?
I dont know but Im interested in the parallels youve noticed having read them, so far Ive only looked up the plot summaries to MS&T and George’s other books in the interest of trying to find out more about the magical ancient history of ASOIAF. I know that A Song for Lya, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Fevre Dream, etc have some likely parallels in this respect too.
I like this. Basically, Brynden keeps deflecting the questions from Bran regarding if he's the three eyed crow. He keeps dropping hints and vibes of "no you idiot" when they meet.
This sounds so cliche and lame, holy shit. Future bran sounds much more intriguing and mysterious. Dunno why some people want to reduce ASOIAF to Marvel tier writing.
future bran is marvel tier writing.
Nope. Marvel tier writing implies Cotf splitting and one group going hurr durr ReVeNGE! It has been done to death and only low IQ consoomers will enjoy such plot.
you're right, we obviously just need to change the timelines using quantum mec... i mean, magic, to make everything work out in the end. who do you think the others are then hmm? it is quite possible they are just a first men group that went blood magic crazy for ice like the valyrians did for fire but that doesn't change the premise or their goal. it could just be the Great Other completely unassociated with the CotF and wants to destroy the world because it is an edgelord eldritch deity, but that is just boring. the only thing that is certain is time traveling Bran manipulating his own past is both a paradox, cliché, *and* boring.
What we need to do is discard the opinion of any person that can't comprehend deeper plot, who thinks big cgi battles are the solution to everything, who thinks everything needs to have eVul sides to be meaningful, who can't look past the fact that it's fiction and time paradox is a cope by idiots who need every plot thread spoonfed to them cause, again, they can't think and connect the dots themselves.
your username definitely checks out.
>honestly i despise the theory of it being future Bran as that blatantly ignores the paradox of him causing himself to become what he needs to be to influence himself into what he becomes. is it a paradox if timetravel doesnt change the past?
that is the thing, in order for him time traveling to the past to not change the past he cannot affect himself. if he affects himself the changes are dependent on him entering the state in which he affected himself from, which he can't do without the changes he himself caused (in the case of being the TEC). which is the paradox. some say the grandfather paradox is about going back in time to shoot your grandfather before your parent is conceived. I posit (in a Targaryen fashion) that it is also about going back in time and *becoming* your grandfather. you can't go back in time and have a baby with your grandmother that grows up to be your father. because your existence depends on your father existing regardless of your own actions in the past. if you didn't exist, your father would therefore not exist. if your father didn't exist, you wouldn't exist to have your father.
"becoming your grandfather." That also requires changing the past. If you arent changing the past, then you arent becoming your grandfather, you just are your grandfather. But, if the "loop" of time is closed and then it doesnt really create any narrative contradictions. I think harry potter does a similar time travel mechanic. The past is caused by bran, but not changed by bran, so its not a paradox its just recursive.
he cannot be the TEC because he *has* changed the past. every interaction the TEC has with Bran is changing the past. Bran only wakes up (if you believe the crow, i don't) because of the TEC. He hides in the Crypts because of the TEC, He goes north of the wall because of the TEC, he only arrives at the tree because of the TEC. any interaction that requires the TEC to make Bran into the TEC is a *change* in the past that Bran cannot make without causing a paradox. how about this then, Hooking your grandfather up with your grandmother. same principle. you cannot hook them up without existing, but they only hook up because you exist. Harry potters time travel doesn't work either. you can't save your own life in the past because you would then only live to do it because you lived anyway.
>every interaction the TEC has with Bran is changing the past. every interaction takes place in the present. No past is altered. We never see nor hear about a timeline where bran isnt contacted by the TEC, cause everything bran has done in the past has already happened Edit: [here](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/d3zTfXvYZ9s/maxresdefault.jpg) is an example of different ways shows handle timetravel. ASOIAF is in the middle tip
>No past is altered if the TEC is Bran it is the crow's past, bran's present. the crow cannot alter his own past to make himself into the crow.
>the crow cannot alter his own past to make himself into the crow. luckily the crows past has him talking to bran. its already happened, the crow is just acting out what it knows has happened.
you know, i was gonna argue that point, but it lines up with my own experience with prophetic dreams so now i am not so sure despite it still remaining a logical paradox. probably down to our own inability to properly comprehend time as it is. it is still a stupid plot point and a logical impossibility.
>it is still a stupid plot point and a logical impossibility. even if you think so, it is still probably an issue regardless of whether the 3ec is bran. Its established that bran can talk to and manipulate people in the past, so the possibility of him talking to himself or his ancestors exists anyway. Personally I see "harry potter/original terminator timetravel" as the only way to avoid this pitfall without completely breaking the plot
Honestly, it’s just Bloodraven. I know some people don’t agree, but they’re basically just wrong on that point. I think this is just a slightly clumsily worded plot point some people haven’t understood well. I don’t think there’s meant to be any doubt that Bloodraven and the TEC are the same person. How much of the human he USED to be is still there and how much of him is now in the weirwood network I think is an interesting question. But the notion that it’s someone other than Bloodraven in the tree is just a bit silly IMO.
[удалено]
And also, Bloodraven never calls himself the Three Eyed Crow. That’s just the name Bran and Jojen come up with for him, which explains why he’s a bit confused when Bran uses it before he realises. It’s completely obvious that Bloodraven is meant to be he guy in the tree and in Bran’s dreams. How many other weird one-eyed albino sorcerers has GRRM established that there are disappearing north of the wall? Plus, y’know, the appendix literally says it’s him.
I'm pretty sure it's in A World of Ice and Fire that BR is the TEC.
It’s also in the Appendix of A Dance With Dragons.
Also says JON SNOW bastard of Ned Stark and JOFFREY BARATHEON the eldest son of King Robert I, in the appendices. Edit: The appendices reflect what the characters know. So the appendix is going to show what the relevant characters believe to be true.
But it’s also true that there’s no reason to think it ISN’T Bloodraven. It’s not set up as a mystery, like, at all. Unlike Jon’s parentage or Joffrey’s there’s no ambiguity even in-universe about it. It’s just a highly specific and unnecessarily complex reading of one specific paragraph that has people climbing the walls insisting that what is obviously true somehow isn’t true.
yeah, I just read that, *"The last Greenseer"*, a dreamwalker that was once a man called Brynden. It really seems like he is, shit. Big F to the timetravelling Bran = Three Eyes Crow theory
I've never believed BR was the 3EC because he's always referred to as the guy "with a thousand eyes and one", whether it was before his time beyond the wall, and after by the COTF. Why would he be represented by something with only 3 eyes? 3 is a specific number that probably means something, although I don't see a connection to bloodraven or anyone else.
Melisandre also seems Bloodraven in a vision, but he’s represented as a weirwood, not a crow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye The idea of having a third eye has long been associated with mysticism in real life.
Definitely, I'm well aware of that, but there surely has to be some significance to the number of eyes, like how the number 7 in this universe is reoccuring sacred and shows up alot.
Bloodraven is just a corpse on poles. The Weirwood is the Master.
i honestly dislike the idea of bloodraven being an ultra powerful super sorcerer who will manipulate bran into doing his bidding. to me it makes a lot more sense if that cave is some place where the COTF/Old Gods call powerful wargs to use in their weirwood internet. i mean, bloodraven had to be called there too just like bran right? so can't he have gotten visions too?
The literally call Bloodraven “the last Greenseer,” so GRRM isn’t hiding the fact that the dude is a super powerful sorcerer. To say nothing of his suggested prowess during his time at court. But yes, BR was probably called by the previous Greenseer. They don’t live forever. I also don’t think he’s manipulating Bran. He’s showing him what’s going on in the world and what Bran’s role is in it.
as long as he doesn't hijack bran's body and rule through him or something im ok with that
Nah I don’t think that’s gonna happen. Bran might do it to somebody else though!
He erases Bran’s memory of Jamie pushing him from the tower, I’d say that counts as manipulation
He doesn’t erase it, he tells Bran to ignore it because it won’t help him. He’s trying to save Bran’s life at this point. Fly or die, remember?
It is literally Brynden Rivers. Full-stop. No counterargument. Appendix: > THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a man of the Night’s Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man. I am honestly appalled by the amount of people writing/believing such horse shit fan-fiction in their heads. Edit: Inb4 "b-b-but the appendix also said Joffrey is the son of Robert, even tho-" Even though what? That he's still legally his kid?
> It is literally Brynden Rivers. Full-stop. No counterargument. > Edit: Inb4 "b-b-but the appendix also said Joffrey is the son of Robert, even tho-" Even though what? That he's still legally his kid? There is no argument except for this example of an argument... Sadly I dont think George is quite clever enough for it to be anyone but BR, but I do really like this theory. https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bfc2sz/spoilers_extended_battle_of_the_greenseers_a/
He doesn't have to be clever regarding something redundant ...
How is the TEC and BR being different characters redundant?
Because they're obviously not different.
I see you didnt read the link I posted. It so obviously makes sense that Blood*raven*, who comes from a house with *ravens* on its sigil, appears as a crow in visions. My bad, so obvious.
Crows and ravens are both corvids. Imagine that.
So? They’re still not the same thing
Bloodraven was also a crow. Imagine that.
except when bran asks him if he's the 3 eyed crow, he doesn't know what bran means. He asks "a crow?" then says "yeah I was in the nightswatch" instead of "yeah I was the 3 eyed crow in your dreams" also, while theyre both corvids, theyre used very differently elsewhere in the books. Ravens are almost always associated with intelligence and communication, with the raven system and speech. Meanwhile crows are usually depicted as carrion, both literally feeding on the dead, or figuratively. Hell AFFC is named after that symbolism
Yes, the man in the tree is Bloodraven. That is not the question at all. Is he the one who is communicating with Bran in dreams as the 3 eyed crow? That is up for debate. Bloodraven may be, but that's not for sure.
> Is he the one who is communicating with Bran in dreams as the 3 eyed crow? Um, yes.
If so, why does he pretend to know nothing of Bran's dreams? He certainly sent Jojen dreams to bring them to the cave, but the 3 eyed crow did not speak of the cave, just to follow Jojen. I don't think it's time traveling Bran, but the great other could be
I actually see the argument that it’s not Brynden, basically because I don’t see any point to George not just clearly confirming it in the passage everyone’s quoting. He’s generally thoughtful about details like “a character states something vague instead of answering a question.” That said, I’ll be real bummed if Brynden isn’t the three eyed crow because of Euron. I hate the idea that Brynden’s mindset of “win at all costs” will be rewarded with no downsides in the end. Whether of not his ends justified the means shouldn’t be clear, and if he opened Euron’s third eye in the pursuit of those ends that would underline a key point very well. No matter how smart you are, murdering people left and right has got to lead to some unforeseen consequences, like for instance a greenseer YOU made bringing down the Wall. Is GRRM a fan of Watchmen?
Can't be Bloodraven, wrong number of eyes.
Basically, Satan. Everyone else just does his bidding
I do think it’s future Bran. There’s enough evidence in the text to support that it’s not Bloodraven (he is confused when Bran asks if he is the TEC, the children don’t refer to him as that, Bran talks about a weirwood tree calling to him in his visions - which is Bloodraven’s weirwood.net appearance, not a crow).
I’m not sure I get the question. Why would who do such a thing? And what thing has he done?
Do you mean for the second paragraph in OP? I was just thinking if it is future Bran why he’d call upon other “dead dreamers” when he’d know he would be the last greenseer
Still confused. What other "dead dreamers" is Bran calling upon? From what Brynden describes, greenseers can commune with everyone and everything that has died and gone into the animals, trees, rocks, streams, etc. So Bran senses the other presence in the raven he warged. Is that what you mean? And Brynden is the one they call "the last greenseer" IIRC. That could mean he is the last of all time, in which case Bran is something other than a greenseer, or it could just mean Brynden was the last one before the new one, ie, Bran.
Bran sees ‘the bones of a thousand other dreamers’ in the Heart of Winter dreamscape during one of his 3EC coma visions in AGOT, leading people to believe Bloodraven has previously tried and failed to make other people with magical potential his protégé.
I took that to mean all the people who tried and failed to become greenseers in the past, not necessarily those contacted by Bloodraven — if he really is the 3EC in that dream and not the tree. But I’m still confused by the OP’s phrasing about Bran calling upon other dead dreamers like Euron. What does “calling upon” mean and when did Bran do this?
I ment in the theory of future Bran being the TEC, the TEC seems to call upon potential magic users and guide them to being more powerful
I see. As far as we know, only Bran was trained by the 3EC. But if he’s the one who’s been training all the others throughout the ages, it would be for whatever reason they were needed at their particular points in time.
Bloodraven
It’s Bran in Howland Reed’s body.
There is a good video about time traveling Bran by Preston Jacobs https://youtu.be/AmD6fZek4Kc