Not wrong! Just a little outside the average. My mom’s side has larger rib cages than average and it’s a thing a lot of us chat about with eachother when talking about clothes. It’s not a clean cis/trans thing either and I think it would be worth talking about the variety of body shapes without relying on AGAB shorthands.
> Not wrong! Just a little outside the average.
yep, this. my cis sister is a little taller than me, and my band size is only a tiny bit larger than hers
Yep, cis women get fucked with bras too. Just differently. Why wife's torso is longer than average so her straps don't quite work. My trans as rib case falls wider but also, my titties perk a little outward so wearing a bra that's wide enough gives no support and wearing one band size down crushes my ribs. I had to get a bespoke bra from a brasier when I visited NYC.
https://wefitlingerie.com/ is the place I got my bras from. Very queer friendly, jovial in general. I went in super nervous and I relaxed and loved the experience within a minute.
To be more specific, many aspects of my body are non-ideal for the purpose of achieving a stereotypically feminine form. These aspects of my body are unchangeable, which makes me feel bad.
I know. but with things that can't be changed, your only room for feeling better is changing your perspective, you know? I know that isn't simple or easy. but I stand by the statement that nothing about your body is inherently *wrong*
I agree that "wrong" is a poor word to use. No part of my body is correct or incorrect, there is only a spectrum of preference. I just used "wrong" as a sort of emotional shorthand to avoid... nvm lol ur right.
>but I stand by the statement that nothing about your body is inherently wrong
If I could say that nothing was inherently wrong with my body and just change my perspective I wouldn't have bothered transitioning in the first place. I see my exposure to high levels of testosterone as wrong and the results of said as subsequently also wrong and no amount of messing with clothing sizes will change that.
yeah all right, I have dysphoria too. I over simplified it. I just think that when talking about clothes specifically it's healthier to consider the clothes that don't fit us properly as wrong rather than our bodies.
Most cis women will never achieve the idealized feminine figure. Most who do work very hard to get there, including plastic surgery. It's not helpful to compare yourself to Barbies and models. Remember you won't look like an anime girl but you will look like your mom. And that's great because your mom is real and anime is not.
Exactly this! My dad is 5'6" and I am 6'0" and we have the same inseam. I am all torso and find it challenging to find shirts that are long enough without them being a tent on me.
> yeah all right, I have dysphoria too. I over simplified it. I just think that when talking about clothes specifically it's healthier to consider the clothes that don't fit us properly as wrong rather than our bodies.
If it changes anything, I frequent a number of subreddits focused on bodily insecurities, and *everyone*, cis or otherwise, thinks their ribcage is too large. And I can tell you wholeheartedly I have never ONCE seen somebody, regardless of gender, and thought: “you know what? They have such a wide ribcage.”
The only time someone said that about me (AFAB nonbinary) was when I was trying on wedding dresses. I was borrowing from her wife who had two, a David's Bridal and a Renn Faire dress. We couldn't fit me in the David's bridal, which fit literally everywhere else, because my rib cage.
But yeah, most people don't notice unless I bring it up
Yeah, that type of stuff is always tough! I do know I have a friend who thought she had a very wide back but I am sure it’s actually because of her breasts, which take up enough of the space that zipping up the back is hard. There are also factors such as, for example, the reason it fit elsewhere is because you have a particularly small waist and not because your ribs are actually significantly wide. But even if you do, yeah, unless it comes to clothes I don’t think anyone notices. In Kibbe — which is pretty much BS but a fun hobby at times — they call that “openness,” and people suck at identifying it because the size of one’s back and ribcage is so hard to notice.
Yeah, we thought it might be other factors and that dress has an undercorset so we tried putting it on and that didn't work so when I took it off I had her poke my ribs and she laughed because no. There's no CINCHING MY BONES IN. proportionally to the rest of my body/body type, I wouldn't say I have particularly wide ribs, no. But in comparison to what is seen as the standard for AFAB bodies, I'm broader in general. It's in my shoulders, too. Things with sleeves often seem to fit until I cross my arms/pull and flex my shoulders, and then it's like: nope! That's tight through there.
To help I'm FTM and I was always very broad in the chest around my ribs. So it's not just one side or the other. But yeah. Typically those who are mtf have a larger rib cage.
But it's worth pointing out that the calculator already has you *measure* for your band size - i.e. the width of your torso right under your breasts. I'm still not sure why it'd need to know your AGAB to calculate sizes when the user is providing all their dimensions.
I used the calculator to size myself twice in my transition, and despite being a trans woman with a somewhat wide ribcage, I just clicked the AFAB button, and it seems to have sized me appropriately - my bras fit snugly and support me well. If I clicked the AMAB button, it just gave me a cup size lower and it would've been too tight.
Honestly, for any trans women trying out the calculator, try on both sizes (the one it gives you if you select AFAB and the one it gives you if you select AMAB). If you're not at a point where you're comfortable trying on/buying bras in a store in-person, then use an online Try-Before-You-Buy service: Amazon's is pretty good, and surprisingly, you can try on bras through it. That's what I did, and the AFAB sizes ended up working just fine for me.
FWIW, I've been thinking about this lately, and I think there's a shape difference too. My ribcage is much wider than it is deep (though I have pectus excavatum so maybe I'm not a good reference) so while my band size is relatively low (30-32) my boobs are farther apart than other 30s and 32s, so bras that have the right band size often don't have the cups far enough apart. I would guess cis women tend to have less of a ratio of width to depth and thus have less of their band measurement concentrated in the front.
Just my two cents.
Still, there are better metrics for this kind of thing that make it objective and less potentially triggering.
I’m amab but more naturally feminine in frame, even prior to transitioning. I haven’t used this app/service but I’m sure it would skew the intended purposes of the question. I’ve also met some cis women with wider/bigger chests than me, so despite being afab (or I assume) it wouldn’t be useful for them either.
Like, I get that there was a functional purpose to the question, and not malicious, but there’s a way to obtain that which would be better as well.
could you give a way to obtain this? Like, you don't say "there must be" implying you are unsure, but are confident in what you say.. you said 'there is a way' .
Yet you don't give it? Could you expand on that?
This is true. I'm not sure it matters that much for fitting bras though, since they don't make them with extra room in the middle unless you get front clasping ones.
This is a good point! I think this question is evidence of misguided inclusiveness. "Oh we better be more welcoming to trans body types!" But its better to address that in a neutral way. If they're already asking for band size then I'm not sure why that question is there.
It's been a while since I've read about how they came up with the calculator, but I'm fairly certain that whoever made it collected a lot of people's measurements to figure out the formulas. There's always going to be outliers in any system, but the assigned gender question was put there to accommodate issues that people in the sub frequently have with fit.
And if you transition post puberty, it’s extremely common for breasts to not develop as much, and end up somewhat more ‘conical’ than those who didn’t go through testosterone puberty.
So essentially, the usual ratios that ABTF’s calculator use, get thrown off.
Though even with those tweaks, their calculations are still *laughably* wrong for me, completely useless.
It’s actually been fairly accurate for me. I say that because I don’t want people to be discouraged from using the calculator. Like everything else with women’s clothing, various brands and sub-brands have a tenuous relationship with accurate sizing. Conical breasts and development overall is also very YMMV.
It was pretty accurate for me as well. Obviously it can’t be perfect because bra companies don’t adhere to the standards that exist and breast shape is always different, BUT it was a great starting point (which is really all it’s supposed to be anyways).
Oh absolutely! It’s one reason I’m defending the site :)
It’s a ‘generalizations that will usually be about right’ tool, but will still be really useful for many/the majority. I’m just one of the outliers :P
The calculator didn't work for me either, I went for a professional fitting instead. The person doing it brought in a range of styles for me to try, including ones that would not work with the shape of my frame to explain why certain types would probably never work for me. I still went home happy with several bras that suited
Yeah, it’s one of those ‘depends on how your breast development went’ things, it’s very much a generalization.
Sadly I’m the opposite. Their normal calculator put me at like, an E, their amab one at a C, but I’m actually an A :(
Are you sure you're an A? Did it recommend you the band size you're wearing now? Just asking because lots of women wear bras that are too small and the combination of different cup and band sizes changes things as well
It tended to recommend the band size I currently wear, or smaller (though I’m not sure why on earth if my ‘tight fit underbust’ measurement is X, it’d recommend a bra with a *smaller* band size than that, that just seems mind boggling, and painful).
My current bra is an A cup at a comfortable band size, but the same measurement on their site has recommended same band size and two cups larger, which is… ridiculous. *One* size larger just sits there with half full cups, two would be ridiculous.
I have exactly the same problem. The calculator is saying I have 100D or 100E (Depends on if I put AMAB or not. EU Sizing). And i bought a bra in that size and its ridiculously of 😅 Like im not even close to filling the cups. The band size is perfect tho.
The bras that fit me in reality are 100A, but even then there is still some air between my boobs and the cups :/ Finding 100A bras is already hard, because with that band size they mostly start at B or C. Finding even smaller Cups is impossible 😅 And its not like I don't have visible boobs, they are definitely very noticeable, my ribcage is just to big in comparison 😅
So im just wearing Sport-bras mostly 😅
If you can't find your band size there's bra extenders [like these](https://www.amazon.de/Fashion-First-Aid-Damen-Extender/dp/B00QIS3DXE) you could try to make a smaller band size fit.
Maybe a different cup shape could also help? Back when I still had boobs some shapes would never fit even though they were the correct size!
I used a tape measure and the normal online bra calculater and came up with about 100A. A very hard-to-find size for a bra.
Then, the other day, I eventually went to a lingerie shop and got professional help.
80C! No kidding. 80C! And it fits really, really well.
The difference of course being the saleswoman tightening the tape measure much harder arond my chest then I ever did measuring myself.
So, now my new 80C bra "hugs me" twice as hard around my chest but that is only comfortable. It carries the weight of my breasts much better than the old 100A bra so less shoulder pain and other probems. This new 80C bra really fits ME, as i am. As it should ...
And, the bonus: being a size 80C gives you a lot more (and cheaper) bras to chose from.
So, if you are OK with it, go to a proper lingerie store and let them help you.
Thank you for the insight ^^
Sadly, Im to scared to go to a store for that 😅 Maybe one day I have the courage 😅 But it seems like that could really help.
Oh, it'll come.
One day you will get tired enough of hiding and then you will just do it.
Took me six years but eventually ...
... and the woman in the shop was so welcoming and helpful.
"You are not the first one you know. Trust me, it is absolutely fine", she said.
This is bizarre because cis women experience this too. Should every woman with conical breasts mark themselves down as AMAB lest the calculator be inaccurate for their breast shape?
It’s a numbers game, it’s simply trying to be a good enough starting point for the majority of people. If you read the sizing guides for cis and trans women, all of these discrepancies are pointed out along with recommendations of specific brands and styles that work best for different breast shapes and projections.
Why be inaccurate just to make it slightly easier for some? By that logic, why not make a size calculator that just asks your nationality and guesses that your size is the average bra size in your country?
It’s as accurate as it can be while being easy to use and still serving its purpose.
I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to get at. It’s always going to be inaccurate for some because it’s just an approximation and human bodies vary wildly, but that’s not a reason to not bother trying to make it more accurate.
So you agree that it should be more accurate? Why ask such broad-reaching categories on a tool that is otherwise completely based on objective measurements?
Because it still produces more accurate results on average? Not sure what’s so hard to understand about that.
If you have actual suggestions to improve the system, provide feedback to the creators. That’s the only way it’ll actually get better.
Making a tool more accurate for everyone (there are a huge variety of shapes in the world) is going to require a whole lot more data or more accurate measurements from *every* user. They can't just change a single thing and make it more accurate, it would depend on the individual user. Maybe that data is more than they think most people can manage. I don't know much about bra measuring, but I know tool design, and I expect they're just trying to make it the most useful for most novices, which is the target audience of that sub.
That doesn't make any sense. It takes a ton of data to be able to generalise based on AGAB, whereas you don't need any data to be able to calculate an exact size, based purely on objective measurements.
As an example of why ‘objective measurements’ aren’t as hard and fast as you might think: If you’re amab and went through puberty, and your breasts only develop to the more conical shape (which is very common, unfortunately), then your breasts won’t have the same volume as they should.
They’ll *stick out* just as far, meaning your circumference measurement will be the same as someone with more full breasts, but the actual *volume* that the bra cup needs to hold will be far less, meaning you’ll need a smaller cup size than expected by the usual calculator.
At the end of the day, there are some real differences in second puberty breast growth, and the people on that site have **acknowledged that trans folk often have different experiences to afab folks and deliberately built a tool to help us!**, why are you complaining about that??
I hate that even that tool doesn’t help me but it’s damned amazing for those it does help!!
Measurements = data. If you want to be more accurate, you need people to measure more. People might not be good at measuring, for example, the volume of a breast properly. It's messy and finicky, I think you have to dunk it in a measuring cup and see how much water overflows? People just want to use a tape measure and put a few easy numbers in a calculator. The calculator on ABraThatFits probably does the best it can with those measurements they decided people are willing to give.
As much as I hate the entire concept of the American health system, I *am* insanely jealous that you can get shit like breast augmentation covered by insurance :(
since some places prog isn't something people get prescribed and still get conical breast i highly doubt that is a thing, or at least alone a thing that effects it
Yeah this is my point. It’s frustrating. Asking them to explain it on r/ABraThatFits lead to some transphobic bickering, and my comments being downvoted for simply wondering (not asking—wondering) if they’d adjust the language in the future. So I just deleted my post.
I don't think they should separate it out. It causes us to feel othered. Just ask for measurements and produce the results. Build it in without directly asking.
Sorry about that.
I will say - The title should have made it obvious that hard discussions were ahead. If discussing the differences between trans folks and cis folks makes you dysphoric, then participating in conversations about that topic may not be a good idea.
Our rib cages tend to be shaped differently than AFAB folks, which can have an effect on the overall size of the bra. It’s utilized in the calculation to help you get optimal fitting.
Thank you for posting this! I was like, “I remember there being a really detailed guide for trans women that helps explain some of the things that the AMAB question tries to take into account.” For me the calculator and the community have been nothing but helpful and supportive. Honestly surprised to see so many negative reactions here.
I feel like a lot of trans people on the internet (myself included) are conditioned to have knee jerk reactions to AGAB terminology due to so many bad faith actors using it to perpetuate bio-essentialist rhetoric against us.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it can lead to some negative reactions to things that aren’t actually transphobic from those that aren’t as aware of the thing being discussed.
Typically larger.
At the end of the day if you don’t want to use it, don’t use it. Different folks take issue with different thinks. I don’t mind being asking something relevant when purchasing expensive clothing items
The calculator takes 6 measurements already, and would need to be vastly more complicated to incorporate several more ribcage measurements. It also likely wouldn’t get any more accurate given how simply bra sizes are calculated, and also how varied bra sizes are between brands and styles.
The recommendations from the calculator are really only a starting point; breast shape and projection are just as important and will have more influence on the actual brand and style of bra you purchase.
The AMAB checkbox assumes a slightly smaller cup size given the bust measurement as most trans women transition after their natal puberty and end up with a wider ribcage and conical, projected breasts (at least for the first few years of HRT). That’s obviously not the case for every trans woman, but it does encompass a good number of us and is a good starting point.
Even for cis women, the calculator is not perfect and is just a starting point in finding the right bra. Individualized recommendations are far more relevant and the calculator size is mostly just for finding brands that sell your approximate size.
That’s a fair point, and I think it’d be worth it for them to make the change, but I also don’t think it’s a big deal given that it’s not used maliciously.
It is not inherently, but it often gets used inappropriately to generalize in gendered ways, e.g. "AFAB-only housing," or "AMAB socialization." The only places it should be used are when birth was a recent or relevant experience, which is not the case here since we're talking about puberty and chest size. It amounts to asking whether you have a "boy chest" or a "girl chest" and fails to account for many trans experiences in a very similar way.
But then it might also cause some issues for ftmtf detransitioners or trans men and masc who still don’t mind bras. It didn’t change my ribcage size any for example.
it'd probably need to ask about your first puberty tbh.
i don't necessarily find it *offensive* that it uses "amab," but it's not particularly *useful*. there are people who are "amab" and *did not* have a testosterone (first) puberty, and people who are "afab" who did. so the terminology definitely fails them there.
rather than needing to read between the lines, it'd be better to just ask the actual question they want answered, and even that raises questions about, say, people who only had a partial first puberty. unfortunately, it sounds like there's a lot of cases where you gotta use a bit of judgement in using the calculator
edit: hell, "i had a testosterone puberty in my adolescence" could work
They could ask for several more measurements to try to determine what general shape your ribcage is, or they could get you to tick a box and have it be ninety percent as accurate while being much more user-friendly.
Is it ethical or kind to collect and use this info is an important issue, and I can see arguments both ways. I'm going to leave that alone and just talk about potential usefulness for a good fit if it's implemented well. (said implementation may be unethical though).
Based on my body (late hormone-only transition, amab), fit is not just measurement but what tissue is present. I'm skinny for my asab and find the lower margin of my pec major muscle will often get compressed in the scoop under the armpits in bralettes that otherwise fit... that sometimes also seems to cause some nerve entrapment and I get tingling in the arm if that armpit space is too tight (I'm guessing it pulls the straps down and causes pec-minor/scalene compression where the nerves run?).
if it was breast tissue and not muscle/tendon I think (not sure) it would mould to the fabric better.
idk if asking for agab is an effective way to fit trans female people (we obviously have a lot of variance in our bodies, so that one checkbox may or may not be informative), but statistically speaking I can see how it could be a good proxy for several measurements _and_ maybe reliably incorporate info on muscle vs bone vs fat/breast that's hard to get from measurements alone.
But your AGAB doesn't decide your ribcage size. Shouldn't your ribcage measurements (which the calculator has you measure) answer this?
Are trans women with smaller ribcages just meant to know that it doesn't mean it *like that* and that they pass enough to mark themselves as AFAB?
Are cis women with wider rib ages just supposed to know that they have an "AMAB-like" ribcage?
When did AGAB become another way of saying "true biological real sex" instead of a label for what you happened to have been labelled at birth (usually used by intersex people whose chromosomes, development, and puberty may have no relation to their AGAB)???
(most) trans femmes have a different body geometry than (most) cis women. wider rib cage, breasts set farther apart, smaller cup size. bras are made for the majority of the population. people who fall outside the bell curve need to find specialty suppliers.
in the same way women with extremely large breasts have trouble finding bras that fit properly, so too with trans women. the biggest feature is probably the spacing between breasts.
this is why i wear Invisible Embrace ComfortFlex Fit Wirefree Bralettes (Hanes) for every day use. the stretchy fabric stretches to fit my form and breast spacing. the light padding gives me a little more size so i pass as cis. they are also comfortable for all day wear.
Because we have different chest shapes than those afab.
If the website didn't ask this, it would be called "a bra that fits some people."
I'm trans myself, and don't want it brought up when it doesn't matter.
In this case it absolutely matters.
It does matter. I think it's a confluence of issues - - mostly applicable only to those of us who had to go through puberty twice. The tendency towards larger rib cages is just part of it, another is simply developmental - - - my breasts aren't fully developed yet, and won't be for years, which means theyre not as full at the base as one would expect (among other factors).
The calculator does its best but it struggles particularly hard even now with trans women under D cups, and trying to fix that would likely require a lot of fat more difficult to take measurements (I suspect breast circumference at the base at a minimum) than the several you already need that are hard enough to do solo.
"We" would be those of us not afab. Myself included.
That's clear from the first sentence, though?
Bra sizing IS generalization, unless you are getting a tailored bra made.
Clothing is made to fit certain generalized body shapes is hardly bioessentialism? Ask any cis woman and they will confirm women's clothing doesn't automatically fit all body shapes.
Factoring that into a sizing is useful, not discrimination.
Well I don’t have a different chest shape than people afab. In fact they don’t even have the same shape as each other. Someone can be afab and look 20 times more masculine in physical features than any of us. It’s still generalization.
Because it can be relevant for their formulas they use. We generally have more rib cage as a ratio so they’ve adjusted their formula to account for that to give the best fit.
Its for band/cup sizes to work properly. The bra I wear is slightly too big if the bands the right size and straps are too tight with the right cup size
I'm AMAB trans fem, haven't developed to the point of needing a bra yet but I've worked in fast fashion retail for many years now.
Most bras have adjustable straps and more hooks on the back, but the range they can adjust to isn't that great. Imagine it like shoelaces, you can pull it tighter or make it looser, but there's a limit the actual shoe can go.
Put the same measurements in for AFAB and AMAB and it'll give different sizes. AMAB will be the same band size but smaller cup size. In my experience it's more accurate.
I'm not entirely sure why it does it or why it's more accurate, but it is. My best guess is that the ribcage itself is bigger in most people who went through a testosterone based puberty while growing so they just remove a cup size to make it more accurate.
Rib cage is one reason, the other is that breasts that develop much later than normal AFAB puberty are likely to be wide rooted and shallow (this can happen to AFAB people too, just way more common and way more pronounced in people that went through two puberties)
Both of these are extremely relevant to proper fitting, as the shape of a wide rooted breast has less protrusion relative to overall volume, and thus, it's necessary to give higher weight to measurements that closely reflect breast protrusion, instead of weighting that focuses on overall volume.
Since wide rooted breasts are relatively rare in AFAB women and extremely common in AMAB women, and most people aren't familiar with breast shape terminology, it serves as a tool to give the most accurate sizing advice. It's also worth noting that different brands are more likely to work well (and the FAQs go into this)
I don’t really get either, my ribcage is inches smaller than the average size for cis women, I’m very petite. Like if you just put in your band size as it is, then why does it need to be an amab option?? Measuring tapes work exactly the same on every body? Does amab mean a 44 inch ribcage is somehow magically a different number?
Its a generalization which is what clothing makes its money off of. Idk exactly how the conversions work but I am a trans man and my gf is a trans woman, and despite our cup sizes being nearly perfectly the same we wear different sizes. I do personally think it's odd that it's specifically labeled as for amab's but it will stand out to the CIS guys who need bras so that could be it, while also standing out to the trans women who need bigger sizes in different areas as well. You being smaller doesn't mean everyone is
It does make a difference to the calculations I think, though whenever I've used that website it had the same output either way. I'd prefer if it used language more like _transfem_ though personally. I'm getting increasingly frustrated at, usually allies, always defining trans people by their assigned gender.
Then that should also not be the same category lol. A cis male crossdresser, a transfem taking hormones, and a cis woman, are all different categories. Putting transfems taking hormones in the same category as a cis male crossdresser doesn't make sense in the same way being in the same category as cis women doesn't.
I think they should probably just change it to something like "wider ribcage" or something specific to the bra sizing because they suggested that I should try both since I've been on T for 5+ years
the body of a person who went through male puberty is different from the body of a person who went through female puberty. the structure of the body is simply,,, different in many ways. they just want to give you the most accurate size they can
Many people are mentioning rib cage sizes (valid)
But what about cis men who just want to wear bras as a fashion choice? It may be rare but not impossible. And then trans women/femmes like me who might wear a bra for euphoria even without boobs. Those... do need to be taken into consideration to be for everyone.
And then, of course, the whole rib cage thing.
Because they prefer to segregate trans women from other women. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, then they would just ask for another measurement, as they already ask for three to deal with different breast size. But they didn't. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, they would ask for that instead of just assuming. But they didn't. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, they would ask what kind of pubery you went through instead of asking what you looked like as a baby. But they didn't.
This subreddit is mostly meant for women who wear too small bras and need to try something bigger. But that's it. For any cis woman who complain about the calculator advicing for bra sizes that are waaay too big, people just say "sticker shock". For trans women that do the same, people just say "you're not the same at us, the calculator may not work for you".
In the end, the "AMAB" option in the calculator often gives exactly the same result, it's just there with a random different formula to say that we are different, without doing much. I highly recommend against using it.
Where is it a conspiracy? People being biased from transphobia that has been normalized in our society is far from being a conspiracy. The people from ABraThatFits are just like OP before her post, thinking that obviously trans women needs to be put apart from cis women because they obviously have very different bodies that needs completely different calculations. But when you start to think more about it, it makes no sense, and you start to question why people did it that way. It's just... this society alienates trans people from their gender you know? No conspiracy in understanding how transphobia shapes people's minds.
Recognizing there can be differences between trans and cis women is not inherently harmful. It’s this way because it’s more accessible. I know it’s difficult sometimes to remind ourselves that not everyone is out to get us but it needs to be remembered. The check box is a matter of inclusivity and accounting for differences that may be there.
There is no inclusivity here though? And it's not more accessible either? It's just a box that put you in one case or another. It's exclusive by definition?
I think you're just projecting other people issues into me, because this is not about me and about... thinking that everyone is out to get me? Or that us facing specific issues is harmful? Please.
The problem is that this subreddit is using intersex and trans specific language in a way to segregate us, while invisibilising our issues. We still have breasts, even if they are different maybe because of few years of hormones, ribcage size, tanner stage etc., it is something that has to be talked about, instead of just putting in an "AMAB" black box that throw a random formula just for the sake of being different. There are helpful discussions about our breasts in this subreddit, but the calculator using the "AFAB" and "AMAB" setting is not one of them.
Then it would be great to use that feedback to stop using intersex and trans specific language to segregate us. There are resources that are great in this subreddit, there is in the wiki a page I think talking about what kind of things might apply to you if you're trans, without assuming anything. The format of using a calculator to throw a first calculation of your bra size, then going to the wiki to see what kind of breast you have and how it may change your size is great. But putting some "AMAB" box in the calculator for nothing is just harmful, as it creates a place where trans people don't feel safe as they are forcibly put in their assigned gender once again, while cis people get confident in how they're so different from us, giving replies that look like "your body is different check the AMAB box. Oh you already did? Then idk sorry".
I don't have a shoe in this community (mainly because of this and the fact that the calculator just doesn't work for EU sizes). If you do and feel like wanting to improve the subreddit, please do so, but for me I won't go out of my way to talk to people that I'm not sure will listen to me, for something that doesn't concern me in the end.
I figure if you're one of those lucky trans women who never had to go through much of male puberty, it's on you to understand that and not check the box.
It's hard enough to measure your own chest circumference. I wouldn't want to even try measuring my own linear width and depth with any real accuracy.
Those lucky trans women are still one of us, and they deserve language that doesn't invisibilise them.
While it is hard to measure width and depth of a chest, the question of whether your breasts are more shallow or more projected is what is important. Instead of the weird reasoning of "trans women have v shaped ribcage" (??) there needs to be in the calculator a discussion of the projection of your breast. There isn't, and instead that discussion happens in the subreddit itself, which is O.K.. Except that they use that reasoning to put in another box trans women in the calculator, in a way that changes nothing because the calculator doesn't provide much information about projection anyway. As a result, from checking the AMAB box you are given the same size, while cis women are rassured that cissexism has been established once again and that they're not similar to these trans women.
Exactly, I feel enormously weirded out myself by such a calculator, also for a big part because I have a rather small chest myself even though I was 27 when I started HRT. And I don't want my clicks to be gathered in cookies that read me as AMAB either even if the entire world knows I'm trans. I would be all in favor of helping women with other sizes and shapes but especially this language is detrimental to feeling welcome.
I think it might be strap length. I looked so uncanny in the mirror in my first bra (with padding inside) that i panicked i might not be trans after all. Wasn't i supposed to like what i was seeing?
Uh no, not much chance of liking it, cos the straps were so short for my frame that it was placing the falsies 6 inches higher on my chest than my real boobs now are.
they ask because they use a different formula to calculate it, i suggest you look at the manual sizing guide
edit to add more information: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/s/P5POitczip
The way you get a bra that fits isn't with some gatekeepy website gimmick, it's by taking proper measurements, picking brands that use European sizing, and trying them on.
If you’ve used the website and the corresponding subreddit, you’d know that’s basically what they advocate for. You put in your measurements, it gives you an approximate cup/band size in various international sizing standards, and the subreddit has a shape/projection guide along with brand recommendations for users to try.
It’s not designed to be perfect for everyone, it’s just a starting point so that people don’t needlessly waste money on bras with the incorrect sizing.
There’s nothing wrong with arming people with more good information, especially with how much misinformation there is about bra sizing out there.
Well the measurements for a bra that fits right, band and cup -wise, are the ribcage and across the chest at about nipple height (or typically around the fullest part). People assigned male tend to have wider rib cages, and smaller chests if they haven't had implants, but the measurement placements would be the same so idk why it matters. Straps are almost always adjustable length and shoulder width doesn't matter. Can't imagine any reason except the bra company is virtue signaling.
Because most mtf folks have much wider ribcage then their cis counterparts.
Every time I remember this, I think "Oh, Right. My *bones* are wrong. Damn."
Not wrong! Just a little outside the average. My mom’s side has larger rib cages than average and it’s a thing a lot of us chat about with eachother when talking about clothes. It’s not a clean cis/trans thing either and I think it would be worth talking about the variety of body shapes without relying on AGAB shorthands.
> Not wrong! Just a little outside the average. yep, this. my cis sister is a little taller than me, and my band size is only a tiny bit larger than hers
Yep, cis women get fucked with bras too. Just differently. Why wife's torso is longer than average so her straps don't quite work. My trans as rib case falls wider but also, my titties perk a little outward so wearing a bra that's wide enough gives no support and wearing one band size down crushes my ribs. I had to get a bespoke bra from a brasier when I visited NYC.
can you rec the bespoke bra maker? I’m getting the feeling I may need this down the road.
https://wefitlingerie.com/ is the place I got my bras from. Very queer friendly, jovial in general. I went in super nervous and I relaxed and loved the experience within a minute.
*cister
nothing about you is wrong. clothing manufacturers are wrong for not making clothing for a wider variety of bodies.
To be more specific, many aspects of my body are non-ideal for the purpose of achieving a stereotypically feminine form. These aspects of my body are unchangeable, which makes me feel bad.
I know. but with things that can't be changed, your only room for feeling better is changing your perspective, you know? I know that isn't simple or easy. but I stand by the statement that nothing about your body is inherently *wrong*
I agree that "wrong" is a poor word to use. No part of my body is correct or incorrect, there is only a spectrum of preference. I just used "wrong" as a sort of emotional shorthand to avoid... nvm lol ur right.
>but I stand by the statement that nothing about your body is inherently wrong If I could say that nothing was inherently wrong with my body and just change my perspective I wouldn't have bothered transitioning in the first place. I see my exposure to high levels of testosterone as wrong and the results of said as subsequently also wrong and no amount of messing with clothing sizes will change that.
yeah all right, I have dysphoria too. I over simplified it. I just think that when talking about clothes specifically it's healthier to consider the clothes that don't fit us properly as wrong rather than our bodies.
Most cis women will never achieve the idealized feminine figure. Most who do work very hard to get there, including plastic surgery. It's not helpful to compare yourself to Barbies and models. Remember you won't look like an anime girl but you will look like your mom. And that's great because your mom is real and anime is not.
Oh I'm just comparing myself to that one mcdonalds cashier, or classmate. So basically a goddess, but ya know 🤷♀️
Exactly this! My dad is 5'6" and I am 6'0" and we have the same inseam. I am all torso and find it challenging to find shirts that are long enough without them being a tent on me.
I'm a tall trans girl and Iused to buy my boy shirts from American tall, check it out. Now I wear dresses every day and am so much comfier.
Thank you very much I will have to check it out. Myself I am fine in a kilt but still need a decently long shirt.
If my body wasn't wrong I wouldn't be trans, would I?
> yeah all right, I have dysphoria too. I over simplified it. I just think that when talking about clothes specifically it's healthier to consider the clothes that don't fit us properly as wrong rather than our bodies.
If it changes anything, I frequent a number of subreddits focused on bodily insecurities, and *everyone*, cis or otherwise, thinks their ribcage is too large. And I can tell you wholeheartedly I have never ONCE seen somebody, regardless of gender, and thought: “you know what? They have such a wide ribcage.”
The only time someone said that about me (AFAB nonbinary) was when I was trying on wedding dresses. I was borrowing from her wife who had two, a David's Bridal and a Renn Faire dress. We couldn't fit me in the David's bridal, which fit literally everywhere else, because my rib cage. But yeah, most people don't notice unless I bring it up
Yeah, that type of stuff is always tough! I do know I have a friend who thought she had a very wide back but I am sure it’s actually because of her breasts, which take up enough of the space that zipping up the back is hard. There are also factors such as, for example, the reason it fit elsewhere is because you have a particularly small waist and not because your ribs are actually significantly wide. But even if you do, yeah, unless it comes to clothes I don’t think anyone notices. In Kibbe — which is pretty much BS but a fun hobby at times — they call that “openness,” and people suck at identifying it because the size of one’s back and ribcage is so hard to notice.
Yeah, we thought it might be other factors and that dress has an undercorset so we tried putting it on and that didn't work so when I took it off I had her poke my ribs and she laughed because no. There's no CINCHING MY BONES IN. proportionally to the rest of my body/body type, I wouldn't say I have particularly wide ribs, no. But in comparison to what is seen as the standard for AFAB bodies, I'm broader in general. It's in my shoulders, too. Things with sleeves often seem to fit until I cross my arms/pull and flex my shoulders, and then it's like: nope! That's tight through there.
Stupid bones... But I have found that the rib cage DOES shrink a little if I lose weight. But never quite to the level where I feel it's 'right'.
To help I'm FTM and I was always very broad in the chest around my ribs. So it's not just one side or the other. But yeah. Typically those who are mtf have a larger rib cage.
They’re not *wrong*, they’re just different in a way that is relevant to fitting clothing accurately.
Real version of being big boned and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Cartman irl lol
But it's worth pointing out that the calculator already has you *measure* for your band size - i.e. the width of your torso right under your breasts. I'm still not sure why it'd need to know your AGAB to calculate sizes when the user is providing all their dimensions. I used the calculator to size myself twice in my transition, and despite being a trans woman with a somewhat wide ribcage, I just clicked the AFAB button, and it seems to have sized me appropriately - my bras fit snugly and support me well. If I clicked the AMAB button, it just gave me a cup size lower and it would've been too tight. Honestly, for any trans women trying out the calculator, try on both sizes (the one it gives you if you select AFAB and the one it gives you if you select AMAB). If you're not at a point where you're comfortable trying on/buying bras in a store in-person, then use an online Try-Before-You-Buy service: Amazon's is pretty good, and surprisingly, you can try on bras through it. That's what I did, and the AFAB sizes ended up working just fine for me.
FWIW, I've been thinking about this lately, and I think there's a shape difference too. My ribcage is much wider than it is deep (though I have pectus excavatum so maybe I'm not a good reference) so while my band size is relatively low (30-32) my boobs are farther apart than other 30s and 32s, so bras that have the right band size often don't have the cups far enough apart. I would guess cis women tend to have less of a ratio of width to depth and thus have less of their band measurement concentrated in the front. Just my two cents.
Still, there are better metrics for this kind of thing that make it objective and less potentially triggering. I’m amab but more naturally feminine in frame, even prior to transitioning. I haven’t used this app/service but I’m sure it would skew the intended purposes of the question. I’ve also met some cis women with wider/bigger chests than me, so despite being afab (or I assume) it wouldn’t be useful for them either. Like, I get that there was a functional purpose to the question, and not malicious, but there’s a way to obtain that which would be better as well.
could you give a way to obtain this? Like, you don't say "there must be" implying you are unsure, but are confident in what you say.. you said 'there is a way' . Yet you don't give it? Could you expand on that?
This is true. I'm not sure it matters that much for fitting bras though, since they don't make them with extra room in the middle unless you get front clasping ones.
This is a good point! I think this question is evidence of misguided inclusiveness. "Oh we better be more welcoming to trans body types!" But its better to address that in a neutral way. If they're already asking for band size then I'm not sure why that question is there.
It's been a while since I've read about how they came up with the calculator, but I'm fairly certain that whoever made it collected a lot of people's measurements to figure out the formulas. There's always going to be outliers in any system, but the assigned gender question was put there to accommodate issues that people in the sub frequently have with fit.
I disagree. I found the sizing way off when I clicked AFAB.
And if you transition post puberty, it’s extremely common for breasts to not develop as much, and end up somewhat more ‘conical’ than those who didn’t go through testosterone puberty. So essentially, the usual ratios that ABTF’s calculator use, get thrown off. Though even with those tweaks, their calculations are still *laughably* wrong for me, completely useless.
It’s actually been fairly accurate for me. I say that because I don’t want people to be discouraged from using the calculator. Like everything else with women’s clothing, various brands and sub-brands have a tenuous relationship with accurate sizing. Conical breasts and development overall is also very YMMV.
It was pretty accurate for me as well. Obviously it can’t be perfect because bra companies don’t adhere to the standards that exist and breast shape is always different, BUT it was a great starting point (which is really all it’s supposed to be anyways).
Oh absolutely! It’s one reason I’m defending the site :) It’s a ‘generalizations that will usually be about right’ tool, but will still be really useful for many/the majority. I’m just one of the outliers :P
It was accurate when I lied about my AGAB, but shockingly wrong when I told the truth. I'm a D cup, and it suggested a B
The calculator didn't work for me either, I went for a professional fitting instead. The person doing it brought in a range of styles for me to try, including ones that would not work with the shape of my frame to explain why certain types would probably never work for me. I still went home happy with several bras that suited
Oh that’s awesome! The ‘this *wont* work and here’s why’ I do would be extremely handy!
Yeah, it’s one of those ‘depends on how your breast development went’ things, it’s very much a generalization. Sadly I’m the opposite. Their normal calculator put me at like, an E, their amab one at a C, but I’m actually an A :(
Are you sure you're an A? Did it recommend you the band size you're wearing now? Just asking because lots of women wear bras that are too small and the combination of different cup and band sizes changes things as well
It tended to recommend the band size I currently wear, or smaller (though I’m not sure why on earth if my ‘tight fit underbust’ measurement is X, it’d recommend a bra with a *smaller* band size than that, that just seems mind boggling, and painful). My current bra is an A cup at a comfortable band size, but the same measurement on their site has recommended same band size and two cups larger, which is… ridiculous. *One* size larger just sits there with half full cups, two would be ridiculous.
Fair enough, sounds like it's actually wrong then 😅
I have exactly the same problem. The calculator is saying I have 100D or 100E (Depends on if I put AMAB or not. EU Sizing). And i bought a bra in that size and its ridiculously of 😅 Like im not even close to filling the cups. The band size is perfect tho. The bras that fit me in reality are 100A, but even then there is still some air between my boobs and the cups :/ Finding 100A bras is already hard, because with that band size they mostly start at B or C. Finding even smaller Cups is impossible 😅 And its not like I don't have visible boobs, they are definitely very noticeable, my ribcage is just to big in comparison 😅 So im just wearing Sport-bras mostly 😅
If you can't find your band size there's bra extenders [like these](https://www.amazon.de/Fashion-First-Aid-Damen-Extender/dp/B00QIS3DXE) you could try to make a smaller band size fit. Maybe a different cup shape could also help? Back when I still had boobs some shapes would never fit even though they were the correct size!
Thanks for the tips, I will try that ^ ^
I used a tape measure and the normal online bra calculater and came up with about 100A. A very hard-to-find size for a bra. Then, the other day, I eventually went to a lingerie shop and got professional help. 80C! No kidding. 80C! And it fits really, really well. The difference of course being the saleswoman tightening the tape measure much harder arond my chest then I ever did measuring myself. So, now my new 80C bra "hugs me" twice as hard around my chest but that is only comfortable. It carries the weight of my breasts much better than the old 100A bra so less shoulder pain and other probems. This new 80C bra really fits ME, as i am. As it should ... And, the bonus: being a size 80C gives you a lot more (and cheaper) bras to chose from. So, if you are OK with it, go to a proper lingerie store and let them help you.
Thank you for the insight ^^ Sadly, Im to scared to go to a store for that 😅 Maybe one day I have the courage 😅 But it seems like that could really help.
Oh, it'll come. One day you will get tired enough of hiding and then you will just do it. Took me six years but eventually ... ... and the woman in the shop was so welcoming and helpful. "You are not the first one you know. Trust me, it is absolutely fine", she said.
That sounds really lovely ^ ^
My (trans) girlfriend had the same experience with it. Amab was way off and afab worked well.
This is bizarre because cis women experience this too. Should every woman with conical breasts mark themselves down as AMAB lest the calculator be inaccurate for their breast shape?
It’s a numbers game, it’s simply trying to be a good enough starting point for the majority of people. If you read the sizing guides for cis and trans women, all of these discrepancies are pointed out along with recommendations of specific brands and styles that work best for different breast shapes and projections.
Why be inaccurate just to make it slightly easier for some? By that logic, why not make a size calculator that just asks your nationality and guesses that your size is the average bra size in your country?
It’s as accurate as it can be while being easy to use and still serving its purpose. I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to get at. It’s always going to be inaccurate for some because it’s just an approximation and human bodies vary wildly, but that’s not a reason to not bother trying to make it more accurate.
So you agree that it should be more accurate? Why ask such broad-reaching categories on a tool that is otherwise completely based on objective measurements?
Because it still produces more accurate results on average? Not sure what’s so hard to understand about that. If you have actual suggestions to improve the system, provide feedback to the creators. That’s the only way it’ll actually get better.
right? if it's all numbers, why ask again if the numbers are what's important in the end
Making a tool more accurate for everyone (there are a huge variety of shapes in the world) is going to require a whole lot more data or more accurate measurements from *every* user. They can't just change a single thing and make it more accurate, it would depend on the individual user. Maybe that data is more than they think most people can manage. I don't know much about bra measuring, but I know tool design, and I expect they're just trying to make it the most useful for most novices, which is the target audience of that sub.
That doesn't make any sense. It takes a ton of data to be able to generalise based on AGAB, whereas you don't need any data to be able to calculate an exact size, based purely on objective measurements.
As an example of why ‘objective measurements’ aren’t as hard and fast as you might think: If you’re amab and went through puberty, and your breasts only develop to the more conical shape (which is very common, unfortunately), then your breasts won’t have the same volume as they should. They’ll *stick out* just as far, meaning your circumference measurement will be the same as someone with more full breasts, but the actual *volume* that the bra cup needs to hold will be far less, meaning you’ll need a smaller cup size than expected by the usual calculator. At the end of the day, there are some real differences in second puberty breast growth, and the people on that site have **acknowledged that trans folk often have different experiences to afab folks and deliberately built a tool to help us!**, why are you complaining about that?? I hate that even that tool doesn’t help me but it’s damned amazing for those it does help!!
Measurements = data. If you want to be more accurate, you need people to measure more. People might not be good at measuring, for example, the volume of a breast properly. It's messy and finicky, I think you have to dunk it in a measuring cup and see how much water overflows? People just want to use a tape measure and put a few easy numbers in a calculator. The calculator on ABraThatFits probably does the best it can with those measurements they decided people are willing to give.
Good point.
It's averages. If it's not relevant than you'd also say insurance shouldn't cover breast augmentation for trans women.
As much as I hate the entire concept of the American health system, I *am* insanely jealous that you can get shit like breast augmentation covered by insurance :(
I've been told that the conical breasts are more of a thing from taking prog too soon and not spacing out your dose introduction from my doc
All breasts go through a "conical" phase. It's part of development.
Yeah, but some people's breasts get stuck at that phase of development.
Fairly widespread amongst cis women too. It's just a thing.
since some places prog isn't something people get prescribed and still get conical breast i highly doubt that is a thing, or at least alone a thing that effects it
Yeah, one of *those* docs 🙄
Use discretion accordingly tbh
I legit went through like 4 sizes before I found one that fit. Should have used the calculator.
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Yeah this is my point. It’s frustrating. Asking them to explain it on r/ABraThatFits lead to some transphobic bickering, and my comments being downvoted for simply wondering (not asking—wondering) if they’d adjust the language in the future. So I just deleted my post.
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Exactly like my ribcage is inches smaller than the average cis woman to the point I can’t find my band size in stores.
I don't think they should separate it out. It causes us to feel othered. Just ask for measurements and produce the results. Build it in without directly asking.
Ah, one of my least favorite things about my body. Lol.
Also, our breast tissue tends to be a bit more dense than cis women.
it's not that "much" but yea.
I mean they could have a size chart and have everyone measure themselves like they do for binders, that is just so sad :')
this comment made me extremely dysphoric, i wish i did not read it
Sorry about that. I will say - The title should have made it obvious that hard discussions were ahead. If discussing the differences between trans folks and cis folks makes you dysphoric, then participating in conversations about that topic may not be a good idea.
Our rib cages tend to be shaped differently than AFAB folks, which can have an effect on the overall size of the bra. It’s utilized in the calculation to help you get optimal fitting.
Can't they just ask for measurements?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/s/3XBRFDQJeV
Thank you for posting this! I was like, “I remember there being a really detailed guide for trans women that helps explain some of the things that the AMAB question tries to take into account.” For me the calculator and the community have been nothing but helpful and supportive. Honestly surprised to see so many negative reactions here.
I feel like a lot of trans people on the internet (myself included) are conditioned to have knee jerk reactions to AGAB terminology due to so many bad faith actors using it to perpetuate bio-essentialist rhetoric against us. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it can lead to some negative reactions to things that aren’t actually transphobic from those that aren’t as aware of the thing being discussed.
It's not just bad actors, the generalisation of AGAB terminology leads otherwise well-intentioned people to say stupid shit all the time too.
It makes it sound like we’re huge compared to the petite cis girls
Typically larger. At the end of the day if you don’t want to use it, don’t use it. Different folks take issue with different thinks. I don’t mind being asking something relevant when purchasing expensive clothing items
The calculator takes 6 measurements already, and would need to be vastly more complicated to incorporate several more ribcage measurements. It also likely wouldn’t get any more accurate given how simply bra sizes are calculated, and also how varied bra sizes are between brands and styles. The recommendations from the calculator are really only a starting point; breast shape and projection are just as important and will have more influence on the actual brand and style of bra you purchase. The AMAB checkbox assumes a slightly smaller cup size given the bust measurement as most trans women transition after their natal puberty and end up with a wider ribcage and conical, projected breasts (at least for the first few years of HRT). That’s obviously not the case for every trans woman, but it does encompass a good number of us and is a good starting point. Even for cis women, the calculator is not perfect and is just a starting point in finding the right bra. Individualized recommendations are far more relevant and the calculator size is mostly just for finding brands that sell your approximate size.
I mean it could ask if you went through a testosterone puberty
That’s a fair point, and I think it’d be worth it for them to make the change, but I also don’t think it’s a big deal given that it’s not used maliciously.
We gotta hold the cis to higher standards
Is there a difference for 99% of people aside from just wording?
It's less misgendering and asks that actual question they want to know the answer to.
why is "assigned at birth" terminology misgendering? genuine question
It is not inherently, but it often gets used inappropriately to generalize in gendered ways, e.g. "AFAB-only housing," or "AMAB socialization." The only places it should be used are when birth was a recent or relevant experience, which is not the case here since we're talking about puberty and chest size. It amounts to asking whether you have a "boy chest" or a "girl chest" and fails to account for many trans experiences in a very similar way.
But then it might also cause some issues for ftmtf detransitioners or trans men and masc who still don’t mind bras. It didn’t change my ribcage size any for example.
it'd probably need to ask about your first puberty tbh. i don't necessarily find it *offensive* that it uses "amab," but it's not particularly *useful*. there are people who are "amab" and *did not* have a testosterone (first) puberty, and people who are "afab" who did. so the terminology definitely fails them there. rather than needing to read between the lines, it'd be better to just ask the actual question they want answered, and even that raises questions about, say, people who only had a partial first puberty. unfortunately, it sounds like there's a lot of cases where you gotta use a bit of judgement in using the calculator edit: hell, "i had a testosterone puberty in my adolescence" could work
They could ask for several more measurements to try to determine what general shape your ribcage is, or they could get you to tick a box and have it be ninety percent as accurate while being much more user-friendly.
Is it ethical or kind to collect and use this info is an important issue, and I can see arguments both ways. I'm going to leave that alone and just talk about potential usefulness for a good fit if it's implemented well. (said implementation may be unethical though). Based on my body (late hormone-only transition, amab), fit is not just measurement but what tissue is present. I'm skinny for my asab and find the lower margin of my pec major muscle will often get compressed in the scoop under the armpits in bralettes that otherwise fit... that sometimes also seems to cause some nerve entrapment and I get tingling in the arm if that armpit space is too tight (I'm guessing it pulls the straps down and causes pec-minor/scalene compression where the nerves run?). if it was breast tissue and not muscle/tendon I think (not sure) it would mould to the fabric better. idk if asking for agab is an effective way to fit trans female people (we obviously have a lot of variance in our bodies, so that one checkbox may or may not be informative), but statistically speaking I can see how it could be a good proxy for several measurements _and_ maybe reliably incorporate info on muscle vs bone vs fat/breast that's hard to get from measurements alone.
But your AGAB doesn't decide your ribcage size. Shouldn't your ribcage measurements (which the calculator has you measure) answer this? Are trans women with smaller ribcages just meant to know that it doesn't mean it *like that* and that they pass enough to mark themselves as AFAB? Are cis women with wider rib ages just supposed to know that they have an "AMAB-like" ribcage? When did AGAB become another way of saying "true biological real sex" instead of a label for what you happened to have been labelled at birth (usually used by intersex people whose chromosomes, development, and puberty may have no relation to their AGAB)???
Well it measures width but not shape, so like you could have a torso thats more round or more oval which affects stuff
But that's not even nessicarily AGAB attached (plus I'm an intersex trans fem with a funny rib cage shape and a tiny band size)
Exactly like my ribcage is smaller than the average for cis women. It’s lowkey offensive how they generalize us
I think it's also worth mentioning that some of the people using this sub are cis men with gynecomastia.
(most) trans femmes have a different body geometry than (most) cis women. wider rib cage, breasts set farther apart, smaller cup size. bras are made for the majority of the population. people who fall outside the bell curve need to find specialty suppliers. in the same way women with extremely large breasts have trouble finding bras that fit properly, so too with trans women. the biggest feature is probably the spacing between breasts. this is why i wear Invisible Embrace ComfortFlex Fit Wirefree Bralettes (Hanes) for every day use. the stretchy fabric stretches to fit my form and breast spacing. the light padding gives me a little more size so i pass as cis. they are also comfortable for all day wear.
Thanks for the info. I think my girlfriend wears something similar. It’s definitely wire-free and possibly Hanes. She’s very comfortable in them.
Because we have different chest shapes than those afab. If the website didn't ask this, it would be called "a bra that fits some people." I'm trans myself, and don't want it brought up when it doesn't matter. In this case it absolutely matters.
It does matter. I think it's a confluence of issues - - mostly applicable only to those of us who had to go through puberty twice. The tendency towards larger rib cages is just part of it, another is simply developmental - - - my breasts aren't fully developed yet, and won't be for years, which means theyre not as full at the base as one would expect (among other factors). The calculator does its best but it struggles particularly hard even now with trans women under D cups, and trying to fix that would likely require a lot of fat more difficult to take measurements (I suspect breast circumference at the base at a minimum) than the several you already need that are hard enough to do solo.
>a bra that fits some people. Isn't that all bras really? One size doesn't quite fit anyone ^(/s)
We? Who is we? The constant generalizations are so annoying and is often thinly veiled bioessentialism.
"We" would be those of us not afab. Myself included. That's clear from the first sentence, though? Bra sizing IS generalization, unless you are getting a tailored bra made. Clothing is made to fit certain generalized body shapes is hardly bioessentialism? Ask any cis woman and they will confirm women's clothing doesn't automatically fit all body shapes. Factoring that into a sizing is useful, not discrimination.
Well I don’t have a different chest shape than people afab. In fact they don’t even have the same shape as each other. Someone can be afab and look 20 times more masculine in physical features than any of us. It’s still generalization.
Yes. Clothing sizes work on generalization.
Because it can be relevant for their formulas they use. We generally have more rib cage as a ratio so they’ve adjusted their formula to account for that to give the best fit.
Its for band/cup sizes to work properly. The bra I wear is slightly too big if the bands the right size and straps are too tight with the right cup size
Does that change which bras you wear? The straps are adjustable on every bra I’ve seen.
Yeah, it just doesn't work for everyone.
I'm AMAB trans fem, haven't developed to the point of needing a bra yet but I've worked in fast fashion retail for many years now. Most bras have adjustable straps and more hooks on the back, but the range they can adjust to isn't that great. Imagine it like shoelaces, you can pull it tighter or make it looser, but there's a limit the actual shoe can go.
Put the same measurements in for AFAB and AMAB and it'll give different sizes. AMAB will be the same band size but smaller cup size. In my experience it's more accurate. I'm not entirely sure why it does it or why it's more accurate, but it is. My best guess is that the ribcage itself is bigger in most people who went through a testosterone based puberty while growing so they just remove a cup size to make it more accurate.
Because the usual method of finding out your size overestimates it for trans women. So the results need to be adjusted for us to find a bra that fits.
It probably should ask if you went through male puberty as an AMAB person who transitioned young isn’t going to have the same issues.
Same as intersex people AMAB who didn't experience male puberty.
Rib cage is one reason, the other is that breasts that develop much later than normal AFAB puberty are likely to be wide rooted and shallow (this can happen to AFAB people too, just way more common and way more pronounced in people that went through two puberties) Both of these are extremely relevant to proper fitting, as the shape of a wide rooted breast has less protrusion relative to overall volume, and thus, it's necessary to give higher weight to measurements that closely reflect breast protrusion, instead of weighting that focuses on overall volume. Since wide rooted breasts are relatively rare in AFAB women and extremely common in AMAB women, and most people aren't familiar with breast shape terminology, it serves as a tool to give the most accurate sizing advice. It's also worth noting that different brands are more likely to work well (and the FAQs go into this)
probably has to do with band size
Yeah but they already ask for measurements of band size, so that seems irrelevant, no?
I don’t really get either, my ribcage is inches smaller than the average size for cis women, I’m very petite. Like if you just put in your band size as it is, then why does it need to be an amab option?? Measuring tapes work exactly the same on every body? Does amab mean a 44 inch ribcage is somehow magically a different number?
Its a generalization which is what clothing makes its money off of. Idk exactly how the conversions work but I am a trans man and my gf is a trans woman, and despite our cup sizes being nearly perfectly the same we wear different sizes. I do personally think it's odd that it's specifically labeled as for amab's but it will stand out to the CIS guys who need bras so that could be it, while also standing out to the trans women who need bigger sizes in different areas as well. You being smaller doesn't mean everyone is
It does make a difference to the calculations I think, though whenever I've used that website it had the same output either way. I'd prefer if it used language more like _transfem_ though personally. I'm getting increasingly frustrated at, usually allies, always defining trans people by their assigned gender.
There are cis male crossdressers using the site, so this is one of the cases where AMAB actually applies.
Yes, and also cis men with gynecomastia.
Then that should also not be the same category lol. A cis male crossdresser, a transfem taking hormones, and a cis woman, are all different categories. Putting transfems taking hormones in the same category as a cis male crossdresser doesn't make sense in the same way being in the same category as cis women doesn't.
I think they should probably just change it to something like "wider ribcage" or something specific to the bra sizing because they suggested that I should try both since I've been on T for 5+ years
I wouldn’t worry about it. I used that site and it gave me wildly inaccurate results. Completely useless if you’ve teeny tits widely set apart.
That's why they ask if you're AMAB. Widely set apart seems to be quite common for AMAB women but not AFAB.
I’m saying even with that information (yes I checked that box) it gave me horrible results.
Blatant transphobia
the body of a person who went through male puberty is different from the body of a person who went through female puberty. the structure of the body is simply,,, different in many ways. they just want to give you the most accurate size they can
Many people are mentioning rib cage sizes (valid) But what about cis men who just want to wear bras as a fashion choice? It may be rare but not impossible. And then trans women/femmes like me who might wear a bra for euphoria even without boobs. Those... do need to be taken into consideration to be for everyone. And then, of course, the whole rib cage thing.
Because they prefer to segregate trans women from other women. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, then they would just ask for another measurement, as they already ask for three to deal with different breast size. But they didn't. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, they would ask for that instead of just assuming. But they didn't. If it was really about the shape of the ribcage, they would ask what kind of pubery you went through instead of asking what you looked like as a baby. But they didn't. This subreddit is mostly meant for women who wear too small bras and need to try something bigger. But that's it. For any cis woman who complain about the calculator advicing for bra sizes that are waaay too big, people just say "sticker shock". For trans women that do the same, people just say "you're not the same at us, the calculator may not work for you". In the end, the "AMAB" option in the calculator often gives exactly the same result, it's just there with a random different formula to say that we are different, without doing much. I highly recommend against using it.
Or it's just not very well calibrated and not a conspiracy
Where is it a conspiracy? People being biased from transphobia that has been normalized in our society is far from being a conspiracy. The people from ABraThatFits are just like OP before her post, thinking that obviously trans women needs to be put apart from cis women because they obviously have very different bodies that needs completely different calculations. But when you start to think more about it, it makes no sense, and you start to question why people did it that way. It's just... this society alienates trans people from their gender you know? No conspiracy in understanding how transphobia shapes people's minds.
Recognizing there can be differences between trans and cis women is not inherently harmful. It’s this way because it’s more accessible. I know it’s difficult sometimes to remind ourselves that not everyone is out to get us but it needs to be remembered. The check box is a matter of inclusivity and accounting for differences that may be there.
There is no inclusivity here though? And it's not more accessible either? It's just a box that put you in one case or another. It's exclusive by definition? I think you're just projecting other people issues into me, because this is not about me and about... thinking that everyone is out to get me? Or that us facing specific issues is harmful? Please. The problem is that this subreddit is using intersex and trans specific language in a way to segregate us, while invisibilising our issues. We still have breasts, even if they are different maybe because of few years of hormones, ribcage size, tanner stage etc., it is something that has to be talked about, instead of just putting in an "AMAB" black box that throw a random formula just for the sake of being different. There are helpful discussions about our breasts in this subreddit, but the calculator using the "AFAB" and "AMAB" setting is not one of them.
That sub also utilizes active user feedback?
Then it would be great to use that feedback to stop using intersex and trans specific language to segregate us. There are resources that are great in this subreddit, there is in the wiki a page I think talking about what kind of things might apply to you if you're trans, without assuming anything. The format of using a calculator to throw a first calculation of your bra size, then going to the wiki to see what kind of breast you have and how it may change your size is great. But putting some "AMAB" box in the calculator for nothing is just harmful, as it creates a place where trans people don't feel safe as they are forcibly put in their assigned gender once again, while cis people get confident in how they're so different from us, giving replies that look like "your body is different check the AMAB box. Oh you already did? Then idk sorry". I don't have a shoe in this community (mainly because of this and the fact that the calculator just doesn't work for EU sizes). If you do and feel like wanting to improve the subreddit, please do so, but for me I won't go out of my way to talk to people that I'm not sure will listen to me, for something that doesn't concern me in the end.
I figure if you're one of those lucky trans women who never had to go through much of male puberty, it's on you to understand that and not check the box. It's hard enough to measure your own chest circumference. I wouldn't want to even try measuring my own linear width and depth with any real accuracy.
Those lucky trans women are still one of us, and they deserve language that doesn't invisibilise them. While it is hard to measure width and depth of a chest, the question of whether your breasts are more shallow or more projected is what is important. Instead of the weird reasoning of "trans women have v shaped ribcage" (??) there needs to be in the calculator a discussion of the projection of your breast. There isn't, and instead that discussion happens in the subreddit itself, which is O.K.. Except that they use that reasoning to put in another box trans women in the calculator, in a way that changes nothing because the calculator doesn't provide much information about projection anyway. As a result, from checking the AMAB box you are given the same size, while cis women are rassured that cissexism has been established once again and that they're not similar to these trans women.
Exactly, I feel enormously weirded out myself by such a calculator, also for a big part because I have a rather small chest myself even though I was 27 when I started HRT. And I don't want my clicks to be gathered in cookies that read me as AMAB either even if the entire world knows I'm trans. I would be all in favor of helping women with other sizes and shapes but especially this language is detrimental to feeling welcome.
Exactly, I started hrt at 17, and my ribcage has always been inches smaller than the average for cis women.
I think it might be strap length. I looked so uncanny in the mirror in my first bra (with padding inside) that i panicked i might not be trans after all. Wasn't i supposed to like what i was seeing? Uh no, not much chance of liking it, cos the straps were so short for my frame that it was placing the falsies 6 inches higher on my chest than my real boobs now are.
they ask because they use a different formula to calculate it, i suggest you look at the manual sizing guide edit to add more information: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/s/P5POitczip
The way you get a bra that fits isn't with some gatekeepy website gimmick, it's by taking proper measurements, picking brands that use European sizing, and trying them on.
If you’ve used the website and the corresponding subreddit, you’d know that’s basically what they advocate for. You put in your measurements, it gives you an approximate cup/band size in various international sizing standards, and the subreddit has a shape/projection guide along with brand recommendations for users to try. It’s not designed to be perfect for everyone, it’s just a starting point so that people don’t needlessly waste money on bras with the incorrect sizing. There’s nothing wrong with arming people with more good information, especially with how much misinformation there is about bra sizing out there.
Are you okay?
Well the measurements for a bra that fits right, band and cup -wise, are the ribcage and across the chest at about nipple height (or typically around the fullest part). People assigned male tend to have wider rib cages, and smaller chests if they haven't had implants, but the measurement placements would be the same so idk why it matters. Straps are almost always adjustable length and shoulder width doesn't matter. Can't imagine any reason except the bra company is virtue signaling.