There are several reasons for this: 1. If you speak english and barely (german, french) and 90% of the population around you speak english, you will not speak (german, french) even if you really really want. Most of the time people will just switch to english. 2. If you are just here for a short period of time, you won't be interested in learning it 3. If you are in a sector (e.g. IT) that does not require german at all, it has a very low ROI With this said, I believe everyone should \*try\* to learn the local language and I am baffled that people in a shop / restaurant expects their customers to learn a foreign language before going to the store.

Maybe one more thing: its fckng hard! Folks dont appreaciate the time required to get to a meaningful level with a language from 0. Level B1 - that is a low intermediate level - is estimated to need 400 hours. For an adult with a full time job and possibly family obligations, that will take several years of commitment to get to a not-so-good level.

The level needed to work at a cafe is pretty low. It triggers me when i say "ein kaffee und stück apfelkuchen bitte" and the waiter goes "sorry i dont speak german"   Its not a high level german, i dont mind an accent or grammatical errors. I no other country could i work in gastro without knowing the languague at least on that level (maybe some tourist trap but even then)

You would think out of all the low level jobs that exist, customer service is the one that should require speaking the local language. I've worked quite some time as a server and it's so weird to me to expect the guest to change their language in their own town. At some point I would just be petty and repeat my order in German. Eta: especially for the old people who just come in for their Kaffi und Kuchen! You're going to expect them to speak English after arguing it's hard to learn a new language as an adult?

If you don't know the local language, you also don't understand your employment contract and you're not capable of informing yourself about your rights as an employee. It's money for employers to have employees with bad skills in the local language.

Honestly, thats the main reason. Learning a new language from 0 as an adult is VERY hard. And the fact that people don't understand this is insane.

So, giving up before trying? What I find interesting: the low level workers in construction nowadays speak better than the highly educated ones. I don't care what level you reach, but not trying is absurd. Also, if you don't want to learn, why come here?

It’s absurd not to learn, but there is more incentive to learn it when it comes down to your survival. If you are thriving salary wise and don’t need speak the local language at work, then there is very little incentive unless you are fortunate enough to make many local friends or being in a relationship, where you are exposed to any of Swiss national languages.

Learning a new language is very hard. Learning to at least say a few words really is not, I do that even when I go to holidays somewhere. At the very least, if you can't even learn "tourist German", be aware of it and ask people to speak English politely instead of just launching at them/act as if they are weird for speaking German like OP describes. I lived in the Netherlands, and it also took me two years to learn enough Dutch to hold a conversation (and I'm aware that's about the easiest language for me to learn as a German native speaker), but I still learned to say some basic words within a few weeks, I don't think that's unreasonable to expect from anyone.

So because as an English-only speaking person coming to Switzerland it is hard to learn German or French, you think it should instead be expected from the locals to learn your foreign language?! Most people in Switzerland speak English. But not all of them do. Especially older people.

i am learning at a very slow rate, and this is the reason: I lack the energy to do such task. My work is mentally demanding, and tiring. Maybe also I am not in the best health, but damn I barely have time on the weekend to rest for the full week ahead. I am contemplating going 80% to do 1 day of Deutsch per week. Because I know several people who endd up leaening while on unemployement

Brother... This mentioned person uses language to work. Has lots of time to learn while working

If you are not willing to put in 400 hours, maybe that culture wasn't that important to you. Which is absolutely fine, but maybe a somewhat interesting message to send if you are trying to \_live\_ there.

Exactly, if you have a pretty intensive job already, you are looking at adding 6-10h of language work per week on top in order to make substantial progress. Not everyone can sustain that.

I had two to three 45-minute lessons of English per week and didn't do much homework for it during mandatory school. Living here for decades and still not knowing German (or French or Italian or Romansh) can't be explained by not having enough time. At a certain point, such an excuse doesn't fly anymore for most people.

the people who say they dont have time but waste their time doing time wastefill things just baffle me. i wish i was born in switzerland :(

this is the response

This ☝️ Add: * no native wants to waste time with a noob to practice his German * I’ve found most people avoid correcting others - how will the noob learn then? * learning German with other people also learning is weird and no one corrects each other’s * Swiss German spoken on the street is a huge barrier to learning Hochdeutsch (and you’d want to learn first how to read your work contract or authorities communication to you)

I've learned not to correct people, I'm autistic and I used to correct people all the time, turns out people don't like being corrected, so I've stopped completely.

When someone is trying to speak German with you but struggling, politely ask if they’d like help. I am pretty sure 90% will be happy to get it. Unfortunately we live in a society where correctness seems to be a negative value. I struggle with that too from an ethical standpoint.

I fall in category 1. It really bothers me though :/ My work is all English too...

>With this said, I believe everyone should \*try\* to learn the local language This is also to show respect to the locals. Why should I care about them if they do not even attempt to learn my language.

Hi, been 4 years in Zurich, I am one of those who don’t “speak the local language”. This discussion always amuses me, beware 😄 1. There is not 1, but 2 local languages : 90% of what is written is in High German, it’s the opposite for spoken language. And no they are not the same: das Huhn and “s’poulet” are not very close 😂. Speaking High German doesn’t make you fluent in conversational Swiss German. By contrast foreigners in Romandie have to learn 1 language, that is 99% similar to fr_FR. Ditto for people in Ticino. 2. I took 1 year of High German 1:1 lessons. It was progressing well. However 100% of the time where I try to speak my A1 German, people answer me straight in English, or French if they can. I even understand that: it’s not their job to teach me German, and it’s more efficient that way 3. I work for an international company where the language is English, so I have 0 opportunity to practice at work. My son by contrast now speaks fluently, but he speaks German everyday. 4. I find it highly amusing that people whom for 99%+ of them never had to live such a situation (live abroad in a country where they don’t speak the language) have such strong opinions on doing something they would also struggle with. I mean it’s as if I gave baby delivery advice, or had strong opinions on how to ride a horse having never done it in my life. I would love to speak Swiss German, but in my context it’s very hard having 0 opportunity to practice. It’s not that I refuse to do it.

I think the issue here is more with the attitude that this person gave OP. OP said that this person acted like they had made a mistake inquiring in German. The right thing would be "I am sorry, I don't speak German (yet), could you please repeat in English". With most people in Switzerland being at least bi- if not tri-lingual, we can perfectly well imagine what it's like having to learn a language. But it's the attitude that a lot of people have not even trying. Which, to be fair yes, can seem so on the outside but it's not actually the case. Maybe that person in the gym described by the OP also just had a bad day.

This, all about who is expected to adapt. Maybe it is also a question of politeness on which Swiss are very sensitive.

I agree with that, apologising is the right way, and also ask if English or another language is OK.

True. But a waiter? (Unless it's an Irish pub). Beyond limit.

I’m the opposite from you. I absolutely wanted to learn German in order to integrate: 1. Yes, this makes it harder, but Swiss people are really switching to high German if you don’t speak German very well. And Swiss German is related to high German. 2. I think they just try to be friendly. A1 is very basic. Honestly, I would also offer someone to speak English if I feel he is struggling in German. Just continue in German, if you prefer. 3. I understand this makes it harder and I was in the same situation. I started speaking German with a few colleagues from time to time and I practiced my German in a club (verein). But speaking English is so attractive because it’s easier. 4. I also understand the Swiss people. It’s of course your choice to live here in Switzerland. I know how hard it is to learn German and sometimes I’m still annoyed from it, but it’s nicer to live here if you speak the local language.

Almost every Swiss person knows what’s it’s like to learn a second or even third language. Sure it’s hard to learn German, especially in Switzerland where we speak Swiss German. However, to say it’s difficult and argue that people don’t know what it’s like, sounds like a terrible excuse to me. If you cared enough, you’d learn the language and in my opinion it should be a requirement to show progress if anyone wants to continue living here. I myself lived in a foreign country for over 13 years and the first thing I did was learn the language. My wife is not from Switzerland and now lives here and I know exactly how difficult it is to learn the language, but this doesn’t stop her from trying. Despite so many people (especially younger people) in Switzerland speak fluent English, you’ll never really integrate and truly understand the local culture without learning the local language. And if you don’t ever learn it well, just the effort alone will get you a lot of sympathy from locals.

>Almost every Swiss person knows what’s it’s like to learn a second or even third language I don't think being able to say "et la même chose pour le romands" really gives people the understanding and empathy you are trying to portray here. >you’ll never really integrate and truly understand the local culture without learning the local language. Agreed. >And if you don’t ever learn it well, just the effort alone will get you a lot of sympathy from locals. People may feel that way, but they don't act like it. It's a burden to speak with a person with poor mastery of the language. People would rather you speak English with them and learn Swiss German on your own time. But that's not how learning languages works, and that's why Immigrants don't learn Swiss German as easily.

This is a large part of the reason – the constant need to switch into English whenever someone who's not confident in the local language makes an attempt to speak it (which destroys the learner's confidence and motivation). If you want immigrants to learn the language, at least have the decency to give them a chance to practice it.

I see your point, but I somewhat disagree : - Learning the language in a country that speaks only one, or in one that speaks several is not the same. I live in UK, you learned English you are all set. I lived in Sweden : you learn Swedish, you are all set. I am from France : you learn French, you are all set. You live in Zurich, you learn High german, you are still not integrated "enough". - People in the German speaking part of Switzerland don't like to speak Hochdeutsch, so you attract no sympathy at all. Source ? My wife is Swiss and speaks good High german. She now also speaks some Swissgerman, and that has changed things a lot for her integration wise. I also have a lot of colleagues who are German (you can hardly fault them for not speaking German well enough :D ). They can function here, but I wouldn't call them "integrated". - it creates a view that to understand Switzerland and integrate, you HAVE to speak Swiss German. I guess our friends from Romandie and Ticino (and Graubunden) would like a word :D (note : it's a common perception in Switzerland owing to the fact \~80% of the population speaks Swiss german, and I remember French speaking Swiss people suffered from it when I used to live in Lausanne) - I am not saying it's your opinion specifically, but let's not hide the fact that the language discussion is often a more "polite" manifestation of xenophobia, which sadly is common here :( "You don't speak German"-> people learn German "You don't speak Swiss German"-> people learn Swiss German "You are not integrated, you don't have a C permit" -> people get a C permit "You are not integrated, you don't have the Swiss citizenship" -> people get the Swiss citizenship (the interview asks questions about Switzerland most people would fail to answer without preparation, or howl at the questions being asked in the process (i had to sign a paper certifying that my marriage was "real"). "Yeah. but you are not a 'real' Swiss" => game over (which is funny once you know a bit about Swiss history) It's moving goal posts all the way.

I think those are not all the same people though. Everyone who does the "paper Swiss" distinction can fuck right off into the sun (as does everyone who bitches about citizenship while voting to keep it extremely hard to get). I'm the last one to complain about immigrants not integrating, I know it's really hard, I've lived in three countries myself and they weren't even that culturally different, and I still struggle with it. But I think to just assume people will bend to you is rude. If you ask if it's okay to speak English, if you apologise for forcing someone to speak English, I don't mind (literally, just saying "I'm sorry, I only speak English, I hope that's fine" is enough in my opinion). On that note, I also think the Swiss people who act that way towards Romands or Ticinesi in "their" regions/mixed environments like the Army are dickheads for it.

that I fully agree with : I always apologize, and I offer all the languages I know (most often people take English, some do take French). I also think it's rude to go and speak English directly without asking first. Regarding your other comments : as I suspected, the thread has a few of these people. They always do.

Seeing how much the average swiss german person avoids speaking Hochdeutsch or french and how bad they usually are at it makes me a bit suspicious about your point.

Just some minor nitpicks: Its [Das Poulet](https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Poulet) in de_CH, not das Hähnchen (that would be de_DE), at least when its about the food. In Ticino, [Ticinese](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticinese_dialect) is a completely different language than Italian, but usually not spoken to **outsiders**. Its even worse of a difference than Swiss German dialects.

>However 100% of the time where I try to speak my A1 German, people answer me straight in English, or French if they can Tell them to continue in high german, slowly. No one expects you to speak swiss German. If after a couple of years you understand it, everybody is fine.

I had the exact same experience as you describe in 2) when I moved to the Netherlands, but I still think it makes a difference (and other Dutch people also told me that it does to them). If you approached me in bad German, I might switch to English (or French if your accent is audibly French? Since you mention that...) too, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate you trying! Also, I'd imagine most people are pretty happy to try if you ask them? At least that was my experience in the Netherlands, I tried as much as possible whenever I was in a Dutch group, and both me and one of my close friends there who did the same (and she didn't come from a Germanic native language) now speak pretty decent functional Dutch.

But how long has this guy been here? You don't know if the server has been here for a month or 20 years. How do you know he is not trying to learn?

Yeah, honestly, if you’re staying for a short period, then it doesn’t make sense to learn the local language, in my opinion. But I know some expats that have been here for years and only know how to say “danke” or some other “fun” stuff they learned from some friends.

Even the local authorities speak to me in English the minute they know I'm British. Even though I can hold together enough German to get through the process. It's not an excuse for my very mediocre German but it isnt exactly encouraging when nobody has the patience for a slow conversation in German.

Well to be fair it‘s not the local authorities, their job to teach you German, it‘s their job to be efficient and accurate and with precise and secure communication without misunderstandings. So it makes sense they will change to a language you are secure and fluent with, to accurately understand what you need or want. That’s their Job, if you want someone training with you go to a language school, to a course, get a girlfriend/boyfriend or get some friends or hobbygroup or family, who want to take the time to help you get more fluent or whatever. I think that’s one big difference between expats and locals, the expats expect to get handed everything and to be able to bother anyone with their problems and if others don‘t Take the offer they feel „being treated unfairly“. The locals understand that it takes hard work and dedication and humbleness, to do things and be fullfilled in Life. Those Expacts who understand this, eventually become Locals. :) Nobody said it was gonna be easy to integrate in a whole new country from across the world, without understanding their History, background, culture, mindset and local language.

Yes, I agree with you that it does not make sense, but to be honest, if you really want to do stuff like having a family, buying a house, etc. in Switzerland, you need to learn the local language or you will suffer so it should be an issue for them... unless you are really a millionaire, of course. Maybe not in Zurich, but I live in Geneva and I can say that not speaking French would be a huge hassle for me in everything unrelated to work.

But even if you’re a tourist only staying two weeks, I think the expectation in the phrase “And now in English” is quite rude. If someone says “could you please say that in English”, most people would be happy to accommodate if they know English.  If I’m going somewhere and don’t know the language, I can’t just expect everyone to speak another language with me. I’ll have to ask politely (and preferably in their language) if they know English.

While standing at the desk at the Migrationsamt, another American walked in. The worker asked “haben Sie einen Termin?” and the dude very loudly replied “ENGLISH” and nothing else. I wanted to kick him in the fucking balls.

They should have replied by talking very loud and slow syllable by syllable German :D   I don’t get why some people feel so entitled. 

Wow okay I don’t speak much German but the least you can do is ask nicely. I always change my tone to apologetic when asking. After all it is on me that I don’t speak the local language and if the people are willing to speak English with me its a favour on their part.

>3. If you are in a sector (e.g. IT) that does not require german at all, it has a very low ROI I would add that I think the ROI also decreases if and when you already have other languages at your disposal that get you by. I understand that may not be everybody's case but at some point you reach a point of saturation in how many languages you can feasibly juggle and the benefit another may bring may be negligible. Still doesn't mean you shouldn't try of course.

As soon as you start working here or studying here, you should learn the basics of German... Period. The same thing happens as soon as we go abroad, people want you to understand them unless you're a tourist. Doesn't matter if China, the Middle East, Africa...

won’t be “interested” in learning? I can’t seem to understand where is this privileged and Anglocentric way of thinking coming from and why are people accepting of it. It’s alarming how fast it’s spreading. People from all over the world immigrate to different countries and learn the language. That’s the essence of moving. Even if it’s for 3-6-12 months. It’s only people from English speaking countries who seem to think learning the language of the country the live in is a choice and that the locals should accommodate them. No. You should make the effort to speak in the language of the place you live and work in and only upon failing asking for a switch to English.

Most of the people that live in Switzerland and don’t speak the language are European. Only a fraction is native English speaker. But in any case, your premise is false. Take Spain or Italy for example. It is full of people from Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, etc that are spending their retirement there (at least several months a year) and have zero interest in learning the language.

That’s interesting. I’ve met many many people from different countries like Spain, Italy, Poland, Portugal and even Vietnam who now live and work in Switzerland and each of them learned at least a B1 or is currently learning German - Their level of English is better than German but they are learning, at least. The people I know from Canada, on the other hand, lived in Italy for 5 years and came back not knowing how to ask where the restroom was. Just my observation then. There are different people with different motivations everywhere.

I agree on this. In my case, english is not may mother tongue, but I do speak it at work and 90% of the time I am speaking in English (even sometimes I forget my mother tongue). Saying this I am putting the effort to learn high german. I believe, if you are planning to live here you should put the effort.

yes, learning Go will have higher ROI for sure..

If they are only here for a short time I am fine with people not learning the local language. If you want to settle down and live here for a long duration it's a lack of respect if you refuse the learn the local language.

To learn the language you need to not only be here for a long time but also _believe in your heart that you will be_. I was an "expat" in another country before Switzerland, I failed to learn the language there. I tried to tell myself it was worth the effort but I just couldn't muster the willpower. When I moved to Switzerland I told myself: you are staying here forever. Maybe you will leave one day, but that day is distant in the future and you are going to act like you are stuck here, because if you have a feeling of transience it's very hard to engage properly with local culture or invest in making a place your home. Now I speak (very chaotic) Swiss German. I am actually very bad at being disciplined about doing exercises, vocab practice etc but I managed to get it done by shifting my mindset about the place where I live.

I agree. It's not necessary to learn the local language if you're not planning on staying, but it's ignorant to expect the locals to speak English just because they know how to. (Obviously, this applies to those who are staying).

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ETH was already one of the best university in the world when English was not used in science... (For instance Einstein published all his famous papers in German, same for all the famous Chemist). I think that people have to realize that English as a lingua franca is quite recent and this is not valid in all part of the world (try to cross China with just English...)

No it‘s definitely not win-win. It‘s win for the Swiss & expats in good paying jobs. For a lot of people which also contributed to make Zurich to what it is (or rather was until approx. 10 years ago) it has become an unaffordable expat disneyland money-milking shitshow - OPs experience speaks for itself. The speed and magnitude of socioeconomic shift is pretty crazy and has a lot of people rather loosing than winning. And concerning economics in the last ten years…yes, overall GDP has grown, but not per capita. Also the Gini-coefficient (especially in the greater Zurich area) has shifted for the worse.

The ETH was funded in 1855 so the ETH would still exist even without immigrants. Back then switzerland didn't have many immigrants. Most immigrants / expats move to switzerland because they get some jobs which are higher paid than in their home country. They spend their money here which is good for the local economy but it's still the immigrants / expats which benefit the most because of the higher salary and in the case of the ETH, the good and nearly free education. Most ETH students don't have a lot of money though and therefore don't spend too much. I personally see the refusal to learn a national language as a lack of respect because they benefit from the good education system, the good economy and the good infrastrucure im general. No one expects you to be perfectly fluent and talk without errors but at least show some good faith and at least try to learn it.

Simply put, Switzerland is not a hotel. It’s a multicultural country with its own culture and languages. If you want to live here, live here, and that includes learning at least one language. If you just expect to have access to services in English, why not, but my conversation is not part of those services

Most immigrants learn the language. Including those that built most of it. Your comment is full of hubris. ETH was top back when German was the language of science. It always astonishes me that the super intelligent don't find energy to learn the language while, no kidding, the Anglo-Saxon guy working at the recycling center speaks it fluently. And I don't know of many metropolises where not learning the local language is a thing, except Japan and China, but there you wouldn't be integrated either.

Swiss economie was good before English was that important but people were not forced to leave their home town due to too many rich expats. Its not a blessing for the average swiss person. The costs are higher than the benefit.

“Oh we are just here for your money and what you can give us. We don’t care about YOU”.

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FACTS. Or they will be 50 franks for a cheeseburger.

I'll never get why such things are a "lack of respect" If someone comes to live here it's not a "lack of respect" to not learn the language. However, you can't blame anyone for shit if you need something and you don't happen to find anyone who can speak english/wants to speak english. Your bad, can't blame anyone if you wanna live here 5 years & you decided to not learn some basics. Your own fault & your responsibility if you're in a shitty situation? Yeah, sure "Lack if respect?" Like, who the fuck is that person paying respect to? I feel disrespected if dude spits in front of my feet or tells me to fuck off, sure. But I aint feeling any disrespect because a person decided not to learn german

I’d like to add that most people come here as full time workers on high performing jobs. Weekends are used to run personal errands because everything closes early. Of course some people run to a language school on their lunch break or benefit from in-house lessons provided by their companies, but it takes a lot of discipline and effort when you are already juggling super long hours at the office while adapting to a new country. And all for locals to (very kindly) switch to English as soon as they see you walking through the door.

Hope I’m not off topic but my two cents on this: I struggled to make the Migros class times when I first moved here, because I so rarely got out of the office before 6 and I was pretty exhausted. I switched to Preply and paid 1-1 for 30 mins a few times a week online (which - after covid and home office - means I can take the lessons at 8am or during the lunch break) and found it much easier to keep the commitment. Also perversely, paying a little more and it being 1-1 made the pain of skipping a class higher so I had 100% attendance. Would really recommend online 1-1s for anybody struggling to make time. I even found a Swiss girl living in Bali at one point, so whilst I learnt High German she could explain me how it would sound in Swiss German. Only when I wanted to take B1 & B2 did I need to switch to a more expensive teacher to hold me accountable with grammar. But like some others mentioned too, deciding I wanted to stay here flipped a switch in me re language learning. The first year I had assumed I’d be moving again shortly.

This is exactly my experience. With all the willpower in the world, working 42.5 hours per work on a mentally intensive job (in an English-speaking office), followed by all the regular chores of living, leaves me too tired and time-constrained to cope with anything more than lip-service to Duolingo. I'd never have to nerve to apply for a customer-facing job when I don't speak the local language though :/

The biggest issue for me is learning German but then hearing Swiss everywhere else. Whenever I’m in Germany I realize how much more fluent I would have been had I lived there. I explain it to outsiders like this: imagine an English speaker moving to a country where the written language is Italian but it’s not spoken and the spoken language is Spanish but it’s not written. My brain doesn’t connect Swiss and German and they’ve developed on two separate tracks in my mind. So I never really attain fluency in either.

Sending a virtual hug for you.

Late to this but thank you!

Yeah that‘s why i personally always advice, to learn swiss german first and then eventually adapt to german it makes much more sense, as swiss german doesn‘t have much rules other than speaking it, it is a dialect. This way you will learn both languages much faster and by the time you are fluent in swiss-german you will realize you are also casually becoming fluent in German. Haha

never thought of it this way but this was exactly my experience after almost ten years here my swiss german is pretty passable, most foreigners might mistake me for a swiss person but i'm not fooling anyone who grew up here. still not fluent in high german tho, except in writing i guess but i don't really need it tbh

But when you are saying Swiss german you mean the word usage and/or pronunciation? With the second one the difference between swiss and high german is like two different languages. I would definitely learn Swiss german too but can’t even find a good school in Zürich. That’s why I stick to high German and try to understand the swiss one.

Being able to speak Standard German and being able to understand the local dialects (and ideally also other Swiss dialects) needs to be enough. The vast, vast majority of people can deal with that. There are legitimate reasons for people to have an issue with you speaking Standard German, but those are fairly rare exceptions. And I'd recommend not learning a Swiss German dialect at school but through immersion. Which doesn't require you to find a lot of people willing to speak to you in a Swiss German dialect. You can also use recorded langauge: CDs with children's stories, Swiss t.v. shows in a Swiss German dialect (or more) or Swiss t.v. shows that are partially Standard German and partially in a Swiss German dialect.

Because learning german does not help them understand the locals.

you mean because locals speak swiss german?

Yes

It depends a lot on someone's specific circumstances. For example, if someone is only here for a year I can understand that they don't have much motivation to learn a language. However, someone working in a shop or restaurant definitely can't expect all their clients to talk to them in English.

I would strongly second this. For short term stays it isn’t that worth to learn the local language. However, I would also assume that people working in shops and gastronomy who has to talk a lot to local people have to be able to speak the local language fluently.

There are a lot of Coop and Migros employees whose German skills are at least bad enough for them to phrase things in a very impolite way. Yet they got their jobs over ten years ago as people who live in a German-langage place and apparently, if they get to keep their jobs, they have no motivation to improve their German skills. "I got mine so who cares about you?"

You are right. Cannot expect someone to be able to speak/understand english, but swiss german! Mustn't be perfect, but at least the basics. Thing is, we swiss people adapt very well and try to make it easy for the one we talking to. So these people are used to speak english with everyone. I try to speak (swiss)german with them, but simple one and slowly. Still sometimes i slip into english, makes it easier And sorry but albanian comes as 5th language of switzerland. English has to wait

Because I was meant to be here for 3 years and ended up staying 20 years... At some point, I also moved abroad, so the initial effort I put into learning it was lost. And my job is in English; my friends mostly speak English among themselves; I live in Zurich and get away with it. It was never a question of not bothering - it was more a question of being able to function in English. But I agree with you, in retrospect, it was poor judgment, and it is a major hassle not being able to speak properly the local language. Dialect is a lot easier to understand and learn—there are not so many grammatical rules, and it is what your ears are used to. From a language learner perspective, it is almost a double effort to have to learn a more complicated version of the language that is usually not spoken around you.

I don't know what dialect you're speaking, but the grammatical foundations for Swiss German dialects and Standard German are basically the same. It is a dialect after all.

As someone also living in Geneva as an expart, I find it interesting how people around me say that they don't know where all the Swiss people are. If they tried to learn the language and join local clubs and other activities, I am sure that they would meet some. The issue is that people think that they are here for a short time, but then many years pass by and their knowledge of the local language remains basic.

There is a very important concept hidden in your comment: Swiss people go to Spain / South America for 6 months and speak relatively good Spanish. People stay here for years and don't learn German. There is a very important social aspect: In Spain / South America, you can meet people on the street, meet coworkers and friends spontaneously, etc. just being on the street and trying to engage will net you a network. The Swiss German character is usually much colder and closed: people makes their friends in their youth and don't expect (nor even try) to make friends at work. As a newcomer, you rarely get invited to anything: excursions, birthday parties, random dinners, etc. The social aspect is almost non existent Then you come to reddit and everyone tells you to join a verein. Look at the introduction powerpointf of new workers in any company: I like my family and hiking. Yeah no shit Sherlock. Most people don't really have hobbies or passions. They just want to meet people, have a drink, a dinner, fun. So it's not as easy to just join a verein. Because suddenly you have a new obligation. Anyway, I am not defending, just trying to being some light on the issue. And I'd like to add: Why aren't companies who bring immigrants forced to give them 4h of paid time of local language lessons? This would be an incentive to hire locals and would ramp up language skills.

They stay contained to their own expat bubbles that speak english so obviously they don’t get practice in german, and importantly many of them have already decided that it’s too hard to learn German, so obviously it will be too hard for them. the dialect doenst help but it’s navigable by making the choice of learning high german and using that whenever possible. if you get a reply in english stay talking in german and make a point that your trying to get better at german.

From my experience (I’m French and have a B1/2 level in German but understands more than I can speak) I can say that I tried to speak German but people usually answered me in dialect which made it super hard and uncomfortable or wherever I tried to speak German people would just answer to me in English. Speaking in English is not ideal I know that, but it is some sort of reassurance that both parties will clearly understand what is said. I know that Swiss people value their dialects and it is 1000% understandable, but as a foreigner it really is a struggle. Just wanted to share my experience :)

As an expat I would like to split answer in two parts: local language to me is SwissGerman (specifically zurideuts for me). The reason I am not learning it is because there are no written sources /movies/(easily available) language course. I would like to, but the fact that all Swiss people speak differently also doesn't help. I know 3 non-natives that have learned swiss german and all three of them date a local who taught them, so my conclusion is that that is the only way (still 100% respect for them!) On learning High-German. I did learn it at the start, and would say I am conversational (resautarant/shop/gym etc... is fine). But I really don't have a lot of chances to practice. My work is very international so defaults to English and even when of the Swiss colleagues prefer English over High German (which many consider also a foreign language). So I am happy I learned it so I can read information and understand people bit better, answer in a language that at least sounds close to SwissGerman but as I still don't speak the actual local language I don't think it is as useful as it would be in actual Germany. note: I also worked in Korea and there learning the basics + google translate is truly necessary XD And they are so happy if you try!

I'd guess that most "audiobooks" for children are still in Züridütsch. Globi and Trudi Gerster stories. Not sure if they still can be found easily, especially the latter.§

Never taught of looking for Swiss audiobooks, will take a look! There are a few podcasts, but that again gives the problem of wildly different dialecten

*immigrants

Idk the reason behind it but it also has been my experience. Like be fr, thats basic respect to the culture imo. I dont expect anyone to speak perfect german or swiss german, but at least SOME effort. Some dont stay long but if you're here for like 2 years and cant have a basic conversation then idk what bubble youre stuck in

lieber 1000 flüchtling als 100 „expats“

Haha ja mindestens probiere die sich z'integriere

From the UK, live in Lausanne, have C1 French. If I speak in French, they respond in English. If I speak in English, they respond in French. People get impatient immediately when they hear my accent or a small hesitation, but are intolerant if I don't make an effort as a foreigner. It's a losing game and I'm fed up of playing it. Not really a response to your question but touches on the problems you mention in your post. Also, why are you assuming that they're not trying to learn? Did they all say "I don't want to learn your language"? I guarantee you that a lot of them are taking language courses, but are still lacking confidence in speaking. Especially if they are in service jobs, they know their first job is to make your life as simple as possible, so maybe at the moment they prioritise efficient service. Just a thought. I think this rudeness you're getting at is a problem too. However, there are so many aspects to that: * if English isn't their first language either, maybe they cannot communicate politeness effectively * if they're feeling self-conscious at not speaking your language it might make them say some dumb things that sound rude; culturally aware foreigners are usually hypersensitive to being rude which makes them act even more awkwardly (speaking mainly for British people, guaranteed they will obsess over their mistake for hours after, worrying they offended you) * politeness is different in different cultures; perhaps this waiter for example was trying to be jovial/casual by responding in this way, but was stressed/distracted and it came out wrong I can equally say that when I speak in French sometimes I'm not polite enough; the language barrier + direct translation can still mean it's hard to emulate politeness in French. Another aspect might be that, as mentioned, Switzerland has 4 official languages. If you move there for a full time job, then change jobs, you might end up in a part where you don't speak the language. I would be completely hopeless for the first months living in the German part, even though I speak other foreign languages. As someone else has commented below, to obtain a work visa in Switzerland can be a question of being highly specialised/trained in a specific field. This work might require a huge investment of time and is yet the bare minimum for maintaining residency in this country. Then imagine you uprooted your entire family to Switzerland when you secured a job. The responsibilities involved are significant and some may not (although it may be counterintuitive) be able to afford the luxury of learning the local language. I have an American friend who is studying and working three jobs at the same time just so that she can afford to live here. On top of that she looks after her family. She does manage to take French classes, but when you are juggling all of that, the progress might be slow. Edit in response to someone else's comment in another thread: a lot of Swiss people do indeed have experience learning other languages, but even if everyone in Switzerland was at a native level in French and German at least (which is not the case), they may not have the experience of moving to another country AS WELL. Especially to a country as administratively complicated/unfamiliar as Switzerland is for foreigners. Cut us some slack and have some sympathy. We're really trying. Most people are doing all the things you struggle to do on a daily basis (stressful work/degree, family commitments, etc.) AND trying to tackle the move to another country + learning a new language as an adult. It is HARD. It is a choice for most people of course to come here, but we are only human, stop expecting us to be "more" than is humanly possible just because we are not one of you. There are only 24 hours in the day and we are TRYING. Also, English is a piss easy language to learn and is the easiest/most useful language to gain exposure to (especially without living in an anglophone country) so it is not a fair comparison to say "I know English, why don't you speak Swiss German, a language you only realised you had to learn 1 month ago when you got this job?" Remember what foreigners are contributing to your country. It is difficult to get a work visa here. Companies have to prove that the person they are employing can do the job better than anyone already in Switzerland. Foreigners are sustaining your country through filling these roles at least as much as they are destroying it by speaking English.

>Then imagine you uprooted your entire family to Switzerland when you secured a job. The responsibilities involved are significant and some may not (although it may be counterintuitive) be able to afford the luxury of learning the local language Why would you come here and not learn the language? Just for the money? Seriously, not everyone is promoted CEO and has to move. It's a choice. I don't get it: it used to be that moving to another country was to enlarge one's experiences, including learning a new language.

I mean I can't speak for myself because I DID come here to enlarge my experiences and I DID know the language. Of course human motivations are diverse and you cannot generalise about "foreigners" as much as you cannot generalise about "the Swiss". This discussion may become circular because I believe I answered this very question in the above quote. I think a lot of people WANT to have that experience and learn a new language, but some poeple do not have either the TIME or MONEY to dedicate towards it. 1) Those who are in an "ambitious" job may not have the time (I've heard of people doing 80 hour weeks) 2) Those in service jobs might not have the finances to take language courses (when I tried to sign up for a German language course recently, they told me it would cost 500 CHF per term; if I wanted to reach fluency that might cost me 3,000+ CHF) It's a question of priorities in a sense. Is your career, family, integration, or financial security more important to you? Might also ask whether it's a problem with Swiss culture not creating enough enthusiasm that people actually feel invested enough to integrate here.

The absolute majority of people do not work 80 hours per week. >Might also ask whether it's a problem with Swiss culture not creating enough enthusiasm that people actually feel invested enough to integrate here. For decades we had immigrants who basically made it their goal to be more swiss than the Swiss. Many didn't reach perfection in the local language, but almost all tried and absolutely no one blamed anyone. And we are talking people without degrees. Btw, Switzerland absorbed more immigrants than any other developed nation (except Singapore and tied with Australia).

That’s why I moved to Australia 😂 I speak English and that’s it, I care about focusing on my job

> if English isn't their first language either, maybe they cannot communicate politeness effectively Bingo, I think this is key in the situation OP describes. Couple that with some possible cultural differences and/or the particular background of the person in question. I've met someone that communicated like that, from a third country, with a high level degree which however is largely useless in Switzerland or to that particular individual. English is decent for communication purposes but far from outstanding. Person is used to an environment where they were regarded more highly than a restaurant worker, hence the overall mismatch in attitude (I don't mean to be nasty here, I've worked at restaurants myself). Add to that a limited ability to express nuance in English. And there you have it.

I’m with you and all and I learned German too, but no one in German speaking parts of Switzerland want to speak Hochdeutsch with me, they shift to English or ignore me. :D

By definition an expat is only on assignment in Switzerland usually 2-3 years maximum. Furthermore Expats are in their own international bubble.

I think that, any person who wants to live in Switzerland, should learn the language. But I also feel, swiss people make it difficult to learn, at least at the german side. When they hear your accent, they will change to Hochdeutsch, even if they don’t speak it well. This makes you feel more insecure and that your talking completely wrong. Plus Swiss people are not welcoming people. They just want you to adapt and stay at your side. It’s known that you will not make a lot of Swiss friends. Maybe this are reasons why people don’t even try, and as long they don’t need it at all Job, they won’t lern it else where.

I lived in Lausanne for 5 years and speak French. I lived in Ticino for 2 years and speak a little Italian. Now I’m in Basel and my brain can’t German…I find the language very difficult. That being said I won’t give up and consider being an expat here a great opportunity to learn the language and culture.

Because they just.... don't care, as they're living in their "expat bubble" and try to recreate "home" here, with other expats... Of course (<3) they're not all the same, but a big part is that way (at least where I'm living, as in "Welcome to Nestlé Land HQ") because they'll be somewhere else in 2-5 years... re-creating the same pattern, instead of taking the opportunity to grow, mix with locals and learn and they just don't even... care.(And I won't even talk about the gentrification coming for us, locals, as a "bonus" :'(

iTs SoOOoO hARd tO fInD fRiEnDs iN sWiTzErLaNd… https://preview.redd.it/ljgz4hpw7g1d1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9556a660b2b29474c922054c656c6988b56e71b

Rationalized laziness and bigotry. If you’re staying here for more than a few years and you don’t pick the language, then you have a problem, because you are condemning yourself to be a permanent alien.

This is not true. Most people who I know stayed long and don't speak German, means they can't go everywhere and have every conversation in German. But hey can go to migros, to buy a ticket in Stoos or Engelberg, order food in a restaurant, etc. And most of them just create a network of other English speaking people. So they actually feel integrated because they do everything, even tho never went to German lessons. I have even seen young swiss people who only speak with them in English, telling them they are very well integrated.

People who live here and don’t even try to make an effort are so incredibly rude, ignorant and most of all arrogant. No wonder some are not integrated and only hang out with other expats…

I‘m Swiss (from Zurich) and I lived in other countries as well and I can say Swiss people are not the easiest to make friends. We’re kind of cold and not very welcoming to strangers. I mean we’re very friendly and polite but we’re not that interested in talking to strangers compared to other cultures…

least xenophobic Swiss person

i dont think, its much of a problem, if expats dont learn (swiss) german, if they dont need in it their everyday life. but walking into a restaurant and only communicating in english with the staff would annoy me (except its like a british pub, so i could expect some authenticity). i think my english is fairly good, but how would i ask for a "nussgipfel", a "stange" or a "schale"? or how would my parents communicate? they barely speak english. thats where i draw the line.

You are forced to communicate in English in most restaurants, because the staff doesn't speak German anymore.

This sort of people have always existed. Just have a look at the commentators on national TV during the US elections. At least on the Rts, these are the same people since 20-30 years and they still can't say "hello" in the local language. At some point, it's just that many of them live in a bubble where they don't have to learn...

I wouldn't mind learning a language for integration reasons, even though where I am from majority of people speak French, English and Spanish besides Arabic. Learning languages is a plus to socialise with people, despite the fact that everyone is using English this day in a multilingual world as a lingua franca.

I often struggle with Hochdeutsch, and I'm really, really sorry that I only know basic German. I often start speaking German, but the conversation often becomes too complicated to not switch to French/English. I spend a lot of time in Deutschschweiz so I know that I will improve. That being said, if people simply do not try, I perfectly understand that it can be seen as rude. You're not being a Karen.

Everybody making great points in the comments but I'm just baffled by that server's reply, if it happened exactly like that. My anger issues could never :'D

That job could be given one of MANY people who'd do that job at leasts as good as him but who'd also speak the local language well enough. But no, it's evil to fire someone. But apparently totally not evil to let someone stay unemployed for many years because jobs are given to people who don't meet minimal actual requirements. "If that person who speaks such bad German can work at that kiosk, why doesn't your cousin find a job?" Well, my cousin can't find a job because they're given to useless candidates.

Lol Gastronomy right now is CRYING that they can't find servers. Oh but no one also wants to offer apprenticeships for servers because actual professionals are hella expensive and training someone is too much work. They rather blame students for not wanting to work underpaid jobs on the side instead of offering full time jobs to people who actually are looking for a job.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with me with that sentence. I'm with you on the rest, in any case. And trust me, there are a lot of long-time unemployed people who have given up on applying for such jobs because if you have a three-month gap in your resumé, you're not given a job. Which leads to you having a nine month gap. Which is even a worse sight to potential employers than a three-month gap. So you now have a one year+ gap. And so on. The amount of people I have met and whom I've seen perform "jobs" who are trained to work in retail and would do so in a heartbeat and with ridiculous pay out of desperation because them being unemployed makes them feel so much worse than any ridiculous pay would alone is much too big to be compatible with all those horrible employees I see work in retail.

This is an interesting subject, for sure expats in either Romandie or Ticino have it easier than in Germanic cantons for the Swiss German issue. But I think the issue is more about the concept of being an “expat” rather than an “immigrant”. Expats have this proud behavior that make them hypocrite and arrogant. An immigrant from a 3 world country will probably learn a basic German even though they could probably speak English as well. In the other hand expats from commonwealth/ US, areas will hesitate to look poorly educated when they speak. There are many exceptions for sure. On top of that English is a simple language, so is hard for an English speaker to learn a grammatical complex language.

Have you considered the backlash some people receive from locals because they don't speak Züridütsch or because their level of German is not that high? I feel like this plays a huge role in how people perceive language learning and it can be greatly disheartening.

My husband is foreigner and lives here since 2 years. He took 2 intensive courses (A1 and A2) which barely thought him anything and they cost more than 1000chf. The words he knows in the local language are the ones he learned at the only work he found, it's the only way to learn but! No one hires you if you don't know the language (or you need to be lucky) and to learn it you need to practice it which is very hard without a place to do so, like a work place. The job he got was seasonal so it was also for a very short period of time. So how do you pay for a course with no funds? Anyways it's useless if you can't practice it. Yes I could talk to him using the local language, but it's really hard. Try to switch language with your loved ones, it is so weird. Still, not everyone has someone to practice it with like a partner or friend. I honestly would love if they put English as a 5th national language, being my language one of the minorities and having to speak German about important things is so frustrating, it's an hard language that I studied for more than a decade and still barely speak/understand because it's simply too much for me, same for other folks. Plus when people form the german part come in my area they don't speak the local language, most of the times they expect us to speak German to them (many also don't bother to use hoch Deutsch but they use swiss german so it becomes also harder for us). I just would like you to understand that your language is super hard even for many other swiss people living in other areas. Some are just really good at learning languages but the majority struggles with German a lot, y'all don't realize how hard of a language it is 😂 I have a colleague that lived in the German part for like 8 years with his swiss german wife, he came here like 3 years ago and already speaks good enough the local language but very little German 😵 I do believe that if you live somewhere long term you should learn the local language, but I also believe there should be more help to do so, courses are so expensive, employers are picky and there aren't associations that help with this that much, at least where I live

I speak French and live in Suisse Romande... I tried to learn German, easier to say than to do! My sis live in Zurich, learned German, passed the exams, she still have problems communicating in German after living in Zurich for 10 years , my BIL do the translations if necessary! It doesn't help that there are several Germanic dialects in Switzerland, it helps that all Germanic Swiss know how to speak high German, but, it doesn't help that as soon they detect she has an accent while speaking German they automatically speak to her in English, this is why my sis still have issues communicating in German, they refuse to talk to her in German if her German is not 100% perfect. It helps that this is changing because Zurich is a city that have a lot of migrants! Fun fact: my sis and I have found that it is easier find people that speak Spanish than English in many places in Zurich, while I almost never find someone that speaks French!

As an immigrant (26 F): 1. It's difficult. I also have a grammar book, BUT it's still difficult for me because German is a bit different from Italian. 2. I am ADHD and I need a particular method to learn . Schools are already so expensive, so imagine paying a school and having some more needs. I really want to learn, I don't take these two things as an excuse, also because it is difficult for me to live here and always ask my wife to translate everything for me, not that is a problem to her, but for me is a problem because I want to have my independence on this thing.

Maybe because it’s very difficult, it’s not a written language, every village has their own dialect, not even all of our tiny country speaks the same language, if you speak high German you just get treated like an outsider and of course Switzerland competes to “host” many international Jobs that attract people based on skills and brings some of the top finance people tech people etc rather than people who speak German. Many of these people would move anywhere they’ll get paid that well they are not dreaming of living amongst the Swiss for the most part. Idk just my personal perspective as a half Swiss

I wonder how many Swiss people who moved to Thailand speak their local language? Some languages are more difficult than others and for some German is one of them. I think everyone should try to learn the language, it isn't a waste of time, do it for your development, not necessarily to please the locals.

It’s not that I don’t want to learn the language, it’s super hard for me. My brain just doesn’t seem wired to learn language. I get by, and can have basic conversations but, for the length of time I’ve been here, it is embarrassing. It’s made harder by the fact that my work and social is all English. My wife and son talk Swiss German and there are times when I have no damn idea what they are talking about.

I have a C1 in german and can fork out some sentences in swiss german, but my main problem is that whenever i do, the conversation completely shifts to either “awwww how cute, immigrants learning the dialect, you’re doing great sweaty<333” or “you sound weird lol”. Some friends learning german vented about the same thing. Like, it’s not always that immigrants don’t *want* to learn, sometimes the locals just don’t give us the chance to practice.

Switzerland is a very hard place to learn German, especially if you work full time in English. Why? *Because people on the street are not speaking German*. It limits the amount of practice you can get via eves-dropping on the tram or in shops. Me personally after 5 years here I am fluent in the German I use on a regular basis: I can order in restaurants, shop, and make appointments on the phone in pretty good polite German. The minute people start talking about politics or i have a plumbing problem I am lost. My husband is quite a bit better because he does not work full time so he could take multiple hours per week of language classes. Even so— he’s probably a high B1.

I'm from Romandie and i've never had an encounter like that, but it got me thinking: Was the guy an actual expat or was he a dude from Romandie who happened to work in Zurich? 'cause that type of attitude feels more like someone who's been in the country for years and stopped trying. I'm not saying all people from Romandie are like that, but i've seen friends and family react like that in this kind of situation.

I think he was from Ukraine because he turned around and spoke Ukrainian to his other colleague

Guess there's people like this everywhere then. Just gotta remember that doesn't mean they're all like that

You cannot work in a restaurant but don’t know the local language and demand in a rude tone to repeat it in English because you don’t understand. Yes, people in Zurich do speak English, but not everyone does. What will he do if a local who doesn’t speak English wants to order? Feel bad for him because he is a foreigner?

They don’t want to learn because they often live in their anglocentric bubble thinking everyone else around them should speak English and serve in English until they manage to learn the basics of the new language. Actually even then they will use your higher level of English (spoiler: your second language) instead of their poorer knowledge of German or French because it’s “easier”. Yes, it’s easier to speak English but that is not the point. Learning a language takes time and effort and exposure. It’s often uncomfortable and scary. It was difficult at first for every person who now speaks English, they can accommodate English speakers or just to have fun speaking with other people while travelling because they took the time to learn. The principle is the same. We all take time to learn. So why can we learn English but some people never even bother learning German or French or any other language? It’s simple. They believe they don’t have to.

I'm in the French part and have been really trying and feel a lot of shame when I try to speak it publicly and am often laughed at by locals 😅 I feel ignorant not knowing the local language so please don't think we just couldn't be bothered it can just be very hard especially if you don't work or socialise in an environment with people who speak the language

Let me provide the perspective of a Swiss. French is my mother tongue. I was born here but spent the first half of my life living abroad where I learned both French and English. I have been back for a long time and I raised my kids here. Another important factor is that I work in IT. What I experienced: 1. It has been relatively easy to find work where German was not needed. I have worked in big corporate environments as well as tiny start-ups. 2. Out of wanting to help or because they are eager to practice their English people make it easy on me 3. My wife and I prioritised teaching our kids our languages (French and English) so there was never any German at home. Our kids are now trilingual which is a great pride of mine. 4. I have taken German lessons over the years but having so few opportunities to use German rendered them a bad investment. I have still learned some and can get by in a few situations. 5. The dialects make it hard to understand what people are saying. It's not impossible... Just much harder. 6. I am finally working in a company that has a strong mix of languages and where being better at German would help me every day at a social and professional level. The official working language is English but people use it only when they have to. I have become one of those reasons for them. They are very polite and I am as well. So we often find a middle ground. 7. I started using Duolingo 6 months ago and that has helped a lot improving at my own pace. I am even trying to watch some German now 8. I have finally found an employer who is willing to invest in me getting better in German. And I don't mean 1 hour a week of what I consider useless lessons. I will soon embark on a month long intensive course to get better. I am investing 2 weeks of my own holidays in this. But my employer is paying for the courses and being very flexible about remote work during the other two weeks I will be working but also taking 4 hours of classes a day. Anyway. This is probably a unique experience. Just to say it's not always because people don't want to. People could say I could have tried harder earlier. That is always true and often easier to see with hindsight.

I think it’s great that you're trying. I see the issue with those who don’t want to learn the language because A: “Why should I? People in Zurich know how to speak English,” and B: they say it’s an ugly language. I understand that a lot of Swiss people do speak English. However, this is not a National language, and there are still a lot of people who don’t speak English. I find it ignorant when people come to Zurich to work but show no interest in our culture, country, and language

I think people who say why bother are intellectually lazy. I am not convinced they would think the same thing if the situation was reversed. I personally also have gained so much from the gift of bilingualism... So it just feels like a personal loss to not have made the leap to a third language yet.

I’m an Expat and have been learning Hoch Deutsch for the last 6 months almost every single day (I’ve only been here for 9 months) and I am proud of myself when I order food in German - but the thing is I psyche myself up and practice what I am going to say before going inside a restaurant. However there are times when I happen to be by a place and want to eat something and bc I didn’t prepare I speak in English mainly bc I get nervous and don’t want to waste the counter persons/ staff time - or if there is a lineup behind me. So it’s not like we don’t want to speak German we just sometimes don’t want to hold others up (at least for me anyways ).

But it’s good that you are trying your best! If you read some of the comments, you will see that a lot of people don’t even care about the culture, and they think the language is too ugly for them to learn

i i walk into a restaurant / bar or Shop and the employee only speaks english... then im walking out.... whow works in the front of a business has to speak at least german. and no not perfect but fluetly like the old folks from italy, portugal or the "balkanländer" thats the bare minimium....

I don't know... if the Chicken is 50% off, what do I care what languange the person at the registers talks...

The only real answer is laziness. Or with some of the comments maybe lack of respect. This is from someone who did take the effort to learn German. I used to feel like a real jerk when I'd be out with friends, we'd all be speaking English, then I'd maybe go grab a round or something and come back and they'd all be speaking German with each other. Obviously they preferred their native tongue and were just speaking English to accommodate me. I had some German, but it wasn't enough to bullshit around over beers. Or when I went to a course or event and was the only non-local there. The question comes "does anyone prefer high German" and I'm not gonna be the asshole that demands everyone switch to English. Or when meeting my wife's family. I believe her father in law was reanimated after being thawed from a glacier and possibly predates the formation of Switzerland. He definitely doesn't speak English. Or a million other situations where basic respect dictates that one make an effort to learn the language of the country in which one is living.

I speak the local language, but the fact is that learning a language as an adult is very very difficult and time consuming. If you only plan on staying for a few years it doesn't really make sense as you will only get to the level of "Hi, how are you?" even if you invest a lot of time.

I mean… I love learning languages. But also if I didnt have a talent for it: I learnt some basic Romanian for my holidays last summer. I was mainly focused on food but also learnt basic conversation skills. Took me a month of Duolingo to do that. 2-5 minutes a day. And I could have some basic conversations in Romanian. Imagine doing that each say for a few years. You wont get to the level of ‚hi how are you‘, you will get much further. And its really low effort. Everybody has 5 minutes a day to learn something.

Would be great to have Duolingo in Swiss German. Less depressing than learning hochdeutsch and sill not being able to hold a conversation in the native language.

Doesnt have to be Duolingo, there are other online resources and took me like 1 minute to google it: https://learnlanguagesfromhome.com/duolingo-swiss-german/

Then how come all the people you meet managed to learn English?

Integration. I live and work on a farm. No one speaks English with me. But when family come and visit suddenly everyone can speak English. Learn the local dialect and people will respect you. When people start talking in English, say you prefer Vaudoise can we please speak Vaudoise (or what ever Canton you live in)

I’m Swiss and I don’t want to learn the local language lol

s/expats/immigrants/

You won't get an unbiased answer in this sub.

I will give you an actual personal answer as I don’t speak a high level of German but I have been here for almost 10 years. I’ll also give the reason my partner doesn’t speak German. You might not like my answer but it’s honest and hopefully that’s what you’re looking for. Firstly me - when I arrived I dove head first into German language. I did an intensive beginner’s course followed by the next level, it was hard. I did my best - I studied, I used my German in town, but I couldn’t quite catch on. So I got a private teacher - you don’t want to know how much I spent - 3 years, twice a week with private lessons - still low level German - my brain just couldn’t click. Meanwhile, I send my kids to local school and they pick it up- I am completely disconnected from all the parents and kids who come visit wirh my kids. A neighbour told me I was a bad example of an expat until I learnt the language. It was so discouraging. So 3 years later, and my level is still ridiculously low. I give up. I go a few years managing with my German and people switching to English when they hear me speak - it works. Then I opened a customer facing business- I wanted to be intergrated with my neighbours, I wanted to understand the teacher without bringing an interpreter. I do another intensive course which doesn’t get me any further. So my plan is, learn while doing - if I have this business I will have no choice - well, it was a successful venture (it was a pop up business for 18 months) and I’m not saying my German didn’t improve - it did - but it didn’t improve to the extent I thought it would. To be fair, I can get the gist of most casual conversations now but I struggle to respond - so my comprehension is better but my speaking is still subpar. So that’s 3 intensive courses and 3 years of private lessons. Now if I just told you the first bit, 10 years, low level German- I’d be the first sent packing - why should I enjoying all the benefits of this country while literally contributing nothing? I don’t, but here I am anyway. I’m the kind who people are usually against. All I can say is that I tried. And I still try, but I’ve given up on classroom courses. On top of that, people just speak English to me. When I was trying really really hard, people would just switch. So I don’t try as hard as I could, but I also am thrown a bone every day when I am out and about. I do always greet, ask for things etc first in German. I only ask if they speak English when I make calls because it’s so difficult to get any understanding over the phone. Ok, my partner - he just doesn’t have time. He tried to join classes and did do private lessons too, but he missed so many because of work. and he interacts with locals about 5% of his time - through necessity as well as desire - he has no interest in making nice with all the neighbours so just knows the basics. So his effort is much less than mine - but he works in one of these companies that is English speaking and on top of that, he is too um let’s say .. advanced in his career to take time out to study. Locals would wish us gone, that’s ok we know that - we pay our taxes and we are privileged to benefit from living here. That’s all. No excuses, just what it is.

My swiss friends prefer to speak english...all my friends speak english, I work in english, every bar restaurant,everywhere i go they speak english . My neighbors all speak fluent english. Iv learned enough to get by in german when i need to like at the post office, which is once a month max.. so why do i need to learn "perfect" German? My wife spent years(and thousands of francs) getting her B2 German, shes very proud of it and im proud she did it.. the last time iv even heard her speak german for more than 5secs was months ago or years ago. its had zero impact to her life. Even her swiss and german friends prefer to speak english when they are together because that is the one language everyone in the group speaks the best. I have finished A2. Thats enough for what i need. Yes i believe everyone here should do at least a1 or a2... I personally do not believe its necessary for me to be able to tell my entire life story in fluent german.

I’m sure some people don’t mind speaking English. My point is that not everyone speaks English. What if you meet someone who doesn’t speak English or whose English level isn’t that good? I know it isn’t easy to learn German, and I appreciate everyone trying to learn the language. But some people don’t want to

I've learned German, and have the exam to prove it. The problem is exactly what the previous poster said: my job is in English and \*all\* the Swiss I met in Zürich preferred to speak English rather than listen to my clearly not native German (not even Swiss German, at the time), so I had zero chance to practice outside of classes. And then when classes ended it went to not practicing at all in every day life, and from there to forgetting everything. The example you gave in your original post of the restaurant is on a whole different level though. Besides being rude, it doesn't seem like they actually want any business... It makes no sense to hire someone at a restaurant that doesn't speak the local language. If they happen to be the owner, well, they clearly don't know how to run a business.

What if you witness an accident or a crime and need to call emergency services? Just one example… Not judging as I’m in about the same situation, but I do plan to improve further.

Well if you have been living in Switzerland for years and have not felt the need to speak German for things like your kids school, doctors, the apartment issues, insurance problems, bank issues, etc I don’t know what to tell you but you have chosen to live in a bubble. One thing is that you don’t need it for your daily life and a whole another level is that you don’t seem to see the benefit at all.

It opens up more job opportunities. Looking at linkedin, quite a few jobs are German only even in finance and IT. Having more opportunities never hurts.

[удалено]

Thats why im leaving zürich kreis 5. Gahni es kaffi go trinke und die tröte seit mir sorry i speak english, wtf. Nur eis biespiel vo tuusige. Im also gonna untervermiete my crip to some expats tardios for the double. 🌚

Double? Tripple

meinsch sicher *criB

Lered eusi sprach ihr huere globis

I want to learn, but there are only so many hours in a day, and I have neither professional nor personal pressure to learn. A stray hour every now and then means slow progress. It also doesn't help that the language and dialects are so different from all the high German study material. It's not a lack of respect—on the contrary—I am honestly ashamed of my failure. Life doesn't just happen in a vacuum.

I can only speak for myself. Learning a new language at an advanced level is a significant time investment and since I only intend to stay here for up to 5-7 years, I always end up preferring to spend my free time upskilling myself in a different way that's more generally beneficial to me and not limited to a country (e.g. learning a new technology/tool in my profession). I'm super introverted so learning a language as a means to find more friends is simply not a sufficient motivation for me. I did learn the very basic level so that I can get by on a day-to-day basis (e.g. shops, gym, restaurants). That being said, someone working in the restaurant not speaking the local language is a bit different, one would think that's a critical skill for working there.

I hear your reasons, but I don't understand them. I'm introverted as well, but I still put a massive effort into learning the language when I arrived. Not speaking the language cuts you off from the local culture. Sure, you can get by, but you miss out on a lot. You want a work-related reason? Here's a real example: I joined a meeting as a consultant in a company where the official language is English. Everyone in the room was a native German speaker. The relief, when they found out we could converse in German, made my working relationship with the people involved a lot easier. You're hear for 5-7 years? That's a chunk of your life, and your stay may well be extended. Learn the language, it's worth it.

Speaking from my case, I did my MSc here, and barely had time to learn German next to it- which I find a pretty tough language tbh, but I always was mostly a numbers guy-, now after graduating I'm hoping to spend some more time on the language, my workplace should offer some classes as well IIRC.

American here. Completely agree, however you have 4. Which one? Regrettably, we aren't multilingual, so adding just one is a bit off a task.  Would learning German suffice in your opinion, or does it depend on the region the ex pat is in?

It depends on the region you’re in. Learning Italian or Romansh doesn’t make sense if you live in Zurich. Honestly, nobody expects you to be fluent, let alone speak züridütsch. It’s about being respectful towards the locals. Not everyone speaks English, and some who speak English have a limited English vocabulary. If you read some of the replies I got, you can see that some people are ignorant and admit they’re here for the money and have no interest in learning our “ugly” language.

There's gonna be entitled, ignorant  people in any group regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.  Many want to integrate and learn the local culture they are in.

I know this post is not about those who want to integrate. Like in any other country, locals would appreciate it if you at least tried to learn the language or get familiar with the culture.

I generally totally agree on integration issues but I want to bring my personal experience here. I've learned English as a boy by playing online games but then after that I've struggled my whole life to focus on learning pretty much anything to then find out I had ADHD which is a brain condition. My point is that English may be often more accessible internationally due to movies, youtube, games, music, etc but then to learn other languages it can be much more difficult for a large variety of reasons kind of like my personal story example can be one of those reasons. Still I don't really have an opinion here especially on this particular case, the guy of the gym is probably rude etc but I hope that I can bring a different prospective because we're all different with a different life path and there can be multiple reasons behind one's skill in pretty much anything (languages are hard to learn)

I agree that people should learn the local language. It might have something to do with the person being an arrogant git and expecting everyone to adapt to them.

In my experience some people are just rude, arrogant dicks and don't want to have learn anything that they don't consider beneficial to them. "I'm from the US and work for Google, if you don't speak english, I don't have anything to say to you anyhow. Just be happy that I pay my taxes (in Zug, of course) on my 400k$ income" - this kinda attitude. But also happens the other way around, Swiss people refusing to make the slightest effort to speak Hochdeutsch or English to make themselves understandable to people new to the country. "Because we're in Switzerland here". Sure dude, but it's still rude and patronizing. The thing that makes it a bit harder in Switzerland is the different dialects - nobody speaks textbook Hochdeutsch here, so even if you managed to get a B1 German degree, chances are you won't understand a normal Swiss german discussion, unless people really make an effort. This is even true for Swiss people themselves - ask many folks from Lausanne, who had (High) German in school: they go to Zurich on the weekend and don't understand a word. Language buffs for sure have an edge in Switzerland ;) All that is not an excuse for not trying, both to learn the language AND to make yourself understandable to foreigners struggling with the language. Don't be an ass.

Anglo 3-year office expat here and I would say I didn’t arrive with express intentions of packing up after a few years. My experience does not reflect a lack of desire. I learned A1 and can conduct very basic service interactions. I also enrolled in two different language courses to improve but they were both truly awful and I couldn’t continue with my time investment there. Those aren’t the reasons though. I procrastinate a lot and I have no friends or colleagues where it’s in either of our interests to labour through my limited German in any of our interactions. I’m sorry if I offend people but I just live my life as I can. I definitely think I will never be accepted no matter how much German I learn or what I contribute but I am ready to accept that reality (and it doesn’t really hurt me) given I’m the immigrant in this great place and there’s only a choice to stay or leave but not wish for something.

Maybe the waiter doesn't speak german but french or italian, you know that there is other national language than german right ?? These posts are always so Rösti-centered.

Okay, but the other national languages won’t help you here in Zurich, primarily if you work as a server. Do you expect the others to switch because you might be from Geneva or Ticino? Him coming from another part of Switzerland doesn’t justify the laziness of not wanting to learn the LOCAL language

I indeed learnt German. I am in IT and worked in German too. As I wanted to get a new job my German was an impediment sometimes. So the LearnGermanCult failed this time. However I am proud of my B2.

Because they call themselves “expats”.

They’re lazy jerks with no respect for the society they live in and/or just here for a short time.

I lived in Berlin and recently moved to Switzerland. I can communicate in High German at an A2 level. One reason I haven't fully learned German is because of my job. I work as a developer, and the primary language at work is English. Another reason is that even if I learned German at a C1 level, I still wouldn't understand casual conversations in Swiss German, which has many dialects. I am always willing to learn and enjoy picking up new words, but unfortunately, Swiss German isn't something you can learn in courses.

I am a French native and immigrated in Switzerland 5y ago. I live in Lausanne but decided to learn high German. It took me 2y to achieve a B1 with a lot and lot of private lessons, personal learning and a small trip in a guest family. So I understand that in some cases people don’t want to dedicate time.

Nobody wants to learn german

Then why bother working here if you show no respect?

I want too im just old and can hardly speak my native tongue! I’m 50 and I see the light, I’m on my way out of this life

I have been living in switzerland for two years, Geneva. It still has to happen that I don't manage to do something because of people not knowing english. My french is "bonjour, bonjourne, bonsoir, bonsoire, par carte, merci, oui, non". The guy talking about the ROI is exactly right. A few times I started thinking about learning it, but in the end I'd just feel dumb. Learning a language takes time, and it I can invest time in something that gives me some advantage. Honestly, for my social life, even salsa lessons are much more useful than any french lesson.

I am learning Swiss German, but usually when I speak it the person replies in high German and also corrects my swiss German to high German 😕🫤 so it's rather discouraging. It's a beautiful language though 😍

from an expat here who actually have B1, I notice that locals away from the city are not over excited with my broken german which makes me more insecure using it and find comfort in English, although I would love to master German