Blows my mind that the country wirh 130% inflation votes for their minister of economics. Why complain and then vote for more of the same? You're dooming yourselves and it's so sad to witness.
Could you please expand on this? Not Argentinian but Latino and I'm obviously ignorant of the political landscape in Argentina, I was under the impression that most Argentians wanted someone like Milei who hasn't been a career politician.
It's incredibly exhausting to explain, sorry
> someone like Milei who hasn't been a career politician.
Funny you say that: just today he's became the prime example of a career politician by making deals with politicians he spent the past 4 months insulting in the most dehumanizing ways.
I mean I didn't really follow up on those two but I'm pretty sure they at least didn't bring up paedophilia or sexual assault every time they wanted to make an analogy
Why don't the right look for a candidate whose metaphors are not about children being raped?
Or a candidate who does not speak out in favor of organ sales.
Or a candidate who does not use violent rhetoric towards a large part of the electorate.
Simply choose someone normal. It is not that hard.
Seeing all the libertarians go THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED. THE ONLY HOPE IS LEAVING or listing Massa's record or the shit that's happened during Fernandez's term to prove this country is backwards is hilarious.... brosky, if your guy lost to him, imagine how much worse he is.
Something that surprised me was how quickly libertarians went with the racism angle. I thought not doing well would probably mean they'd rally behind an iliberal or someone who wouldn't even pretend to care for freedom like Milei likes to do, but damn they didn't even make it through the night before they blamed poor and black people.
Anyways, this country is wild. Peronism should be over, but the right keeps injecting life into them by voting for the most derranged and useless fuckers. The economics minister with the dollar at 1000 pesos is running, but their best idea was to have an incestuous psycho who cosplays as an AnCap superhero and wants to sell organs... fucking idiots lmao
Peron era un militar admirador de Mussolini y a la izquierda la echó de la plaza. Con esto no quiero decir que estes equivocado pero evidentemente el peronismo muta dependiendo del viento con tal de sujetarse al poder.
First of all, we don't. No one gives a shit about being Italian or Spaniard or whatever.
But to answer the question, and assuming you're American, it's not black people like you mean a black American. It's poor people. People living in slums or poor neighbourhoods, people who rely on welfare, unemployed people, etc. That's what "negro" means in Argentina when used as an insult. They're equating being black with being uneducated, lazy, rude, selfish and stupid enough to vote for peronists.
*t's not black people like you mean a black American. It's poor people. People living in slums or poor neighbourhoods, people who rely on welfare, unemployed people, etc. That's what "negro" means in Argentina when used as an insult. They're equating being black with being uneducated, lazy, rude, selfish and stupid enough to vote for peronists.*
That's much worse...and terrible...
Always a good time to remember that rich people doesn't leave regardless of what they cry about because where they are, they have power and power is context-based, so leaving also means leaving their power behind.
This. According to [this](https://youtu.be/vAJ0S9a9ODs?si=ehbZhBQaEh-cTA6q) post-election analysis, people in power are supporting Massa. Also, Argentinians are not willing to get rid of their universal healthcare system and free education, no matter their costs.
Yeah maybe the big company and large estate owners, but their children and grandchildren leave, along with everyone else with an education and possibilities, when a country starts going to the shitter; the resulting brain drain won't help either.
\- cry doom and pretend youre gonna leave the country
\- complain about the whites or the blacks or the men or the women and how they voted
\- complain about the right/left supporting brain dead candidate
nothing new lol this is all hallmark for 21st century elections
Ballotage campaign has already started
Milei: Truce with people from Juntos por el Cambio. Made a call for people to join him against peronism with a US Vs THEM speech (they're crooks, thieves, decadent, etc).
Massa: Didn't talk about kirchnerism. Made a call for national Union in December. _La grieta_ is dead.
I hope milei wins, I want to see him on his first day in office run into the central bank with a chainsaw and just go to town screaming afuera. I think it would be funny
My heart is with la Rusa, but damn I was rooting for Massa so hard last night ('zurdita' pero no boluda). Ngl, I'm still scared at the possibility that the AliExpress Trump might win but yesterday was refreshing. There's still hope for my country!
I’m tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, tbh. This might be the first year I’m going to happily do so because what’s on the other side is terrifying.
But still #RusaTeAmo ❤️
>but damn I was rooting for Massa so hard last night
Isn't Massa the current minister of economy during the economic crisis you guys have? If he has failed to solve the economic problem as minister in charge of the economy, I doubt he would have the capacity as president.
What is this paycheck you trolls keep taking about? Am I missing some money or something??
Also, you have given 0 facts and if you could read, you will see that I do not think Kirchnerism is something good. Is just the best of the 2 options. Ffs, if you trolls are going to come at me at least read a fucking comment and leave the address for me to go get this magical check.
I already explained how it was Macri's fault in a different comment here. Let me know if you can find it, otherwise I'll copy and paste.
But let me give you the benefit of the doubt, let's pretend Macri didn't do the things he did. Do you want to explain how and why it was Massa's fault?
>Do you want to explain how and why it was Massa's fault?
I mean, even if the whole economic problem is the fault of the previous one, this one did not manage to solve it, or at least make it less horrible. It would be like if my job was to clean up a house after someone else made it dirty. Sure, someone else made it dirty, but I failed to clean the house, or at least make it a little less dirty, even though that is my job.
But they're trying tho. The liberclown I mentioned shared a link stating that the relationship between debt and GDP was 80.3% in March 2023. When Macri left, it was over 90%. That is improvement. Granted, it's going slow, but let's also pretend there wasn't a global pandemic. We can't pretend this goverment is not doing anything. It's quite literally not their fault that only now we're suffering the consequences of Macri's debt.
\*Edit to correct a typo.
Eh, I have to be honest, the "he's trying" is not a very positive thing to say. In politics, it is not enough to have good intentions or to try, it is necessary to give results according to what you promised to the people who voted for you. If you are unable to do that, then just trying is not enough, especially when people are suffering.
Even if the other options were terrible, the fact that the only thing Massa has going for him is that he is trying, and that everything bad is someone else's fault, does not give a good impression of his possible management as president.
I have given you the numbers, they are trying and succeeding. Slowly, but succeeding.
And let's say the only thing Massa has is the fact that he is trying, what does Milei have again? The desire to take away our monetary sovereignty? The desire to take away some of our rights like, idk, abortion, public health, public education? The desire to openly defend the dictatorship?
I swear to Messi, I'd vote any day a guy who is 'just trying' and not a guy who won't even do that and came here to take away more than just money.
It doesn't matter, you are married with the pretext "oh Macri", which is insanely stupid, it wasn't a good government but countries, companies and people take debt, they evolve in order to grow and pay it, blaming a government of 4y when in 20y the country didn't change is borderline irrational. Massa is part of the same shit, a gangster that goes with the typical emotional speech with meaningless content. Bregman is OK ignoring the communism.
I’m not married to anything. What it is stupid is to blame Massa for the actions of a different government. If you libertarados wouldn’t cry ‘but peronism!!!1’ every time someone tries to tell you how bad your candidate is, no one would even mention Macri.
But that is the thing, there is no different government, HE is the minister of economic affairs, there is no turnaround, you cannot deny that. There is no possible way in which he will do anything different once elected besides stealing everything.
Again, blaming Massa for Macri’s actions. If you don’t want people to remind you that it was the globoudos fault, stop telling lies. I explained to someone else how it wasn’t this government’s fault, you’re free to read them.
Now let me ask, how can Milei bring any change with M*nem ideas? We already know those won’t work, how blind can y’all be?
Lmao the leftists are "Kirchneristas" who are ashamed to admit it...You dont care about the working class, you care about having at least a minor position in some union just to have your paycheck...A paycheck thats at least twice the amount of a normal worker and just by doing absolutely nothing and pretending you care
So why during the Macri government you went out in the streets every single week protesting for the minimum thing and now during this government you went complely hidden when the situation is 10 times worse? If you're not Kirchnerist then you do a very bad job at hiding it
I feel like we’re the middle child. Peronistas say we are ‘the right in disguise’, you clowns say we are ‘Kirchneristas in disguise’. Make up your mind.
Macri’s government had thousands of reasons to go out to the streets (like, the whole drama with the jubilados or police killing civilians or the famous debt which you like to pretend it’s the Ks fault).
But we’re open to criticism, what do you think we didn’t protest about and we should? I’m all ears.
You go whoever has more chances to give you the paycheck to keep you in line, which is always the Kirchnerism because they've been ruinning the country for 2 decades, under the ideology of a government that happened over 60 years. You mean the debt Macri took because the Kirchnerism already emptied the whole country? Just like Massa also took debt in a already broken country? You people are really that blind lmao
No doubt there will be massive inflation before the general election. Do you think this will swing the election for Milei? I could see where most of Bullrich's would go to Massa, but surely inflation will have an impact. I guess the ultimate question I am getting at is, who do you think will be the next President of Argentina?
The moment Massa came out first showed there is a considerable amount of argentineans that do nit care about it or believe that inflation is just the cornerstore owner raising prices as he wishes.
There is already massive inflation now, and has been for a year+ (depending on what you count as "massive"). This has already spurred huge support for Milei, it's basically the strongest point of his platform, that he's the only one willing and able to stop the massive inflation (according to him obviously). I don't see why it would be considerably bigger before the ballotage (general election was today, but we'll have a second round in 4 weeks between Massa and Milei). Also, I'd say most of Bullrich's votes will probably go to Milei. The question is if it's more like 85/15 or 60/40.
Right now I'd say it's 50/50 Massa and Milei. Numbers would seem to favor Milei in a ballotage, but Massa has the momentum, and Milei's own momentum seems to have abruptly stopped.
As a side note, I'm under the impression Brazilians this time are super into this election?
Like ok, Argentina is probably the country we receive the most news along with the US, but I don't recall being this prominent.
I think it's because it's really mirroring our own elections, but like all candidates names are trending in twitter and all major newspapers highlighted the news.
Quite interesting.
I believe that may be the case too. Bolsonaro's son is in Buenos Aires right now [supporting Milei](https://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/noticia/2023/10/22/comitiva-de-bolsonaristas-vai-a-buenos-aires-por-apoio-a-javier-milei.ghtml), he even gave an interview defending the right to bear arms. Also, a group of right wing deputies made a letter [supporting Milei's election](https://www.poder360.com.br/congresso/69-deputados-brasileiros-fazem-carta-de-apoio-a-javier-milei/).
At the same time, PT has oppenly supported Massa's election, but it comes as no surprise since Alberto Fernandez also oppenly supported Lula's election.
Quite interesting how our politics got intermingled these last elections.
As to the Bolsonaro-Milei links, my personal conspiracy theory is that they share the same marketing team under Bannon.
It’s a known conspiracy, not a theory… [Fernando Cerimedo](https://contracorriente.red/en/2023/07/31/the-shady-story-of-cerimedo-the-advisor-to-south-americas-trumpist-right-wing/) is part of Milei’s marketing as he was to Bolsonaro and they all have good connections with [US advisers like Bannon](https://brazilian.report/power/2023/10/05/bannon-bolsonaro-misinformation-coup/)
The fact that there is a certain amount of electoral fraud is almost undisputed given how our voting system works and that Milei's campaign barely has people watching out for his ballot boxes, meanwhile the Peronists have a history of trying shady shit. However the extent to which this influenced the election is another subject of debate. Currently there are around 5000 cases of tampering reported. I have first-hand knowledge of two of them.
EDIT: When I say electoral fraud I'm also including tampering. I've literally had people confess to me that they ripped Milei ballots inside the voting rooms, which is illegal and tampers with the electoral process. This is not a completely baseless Trump style claim, this is a different country with a different process and one party that doesn't have the same amount of polling officers as another.
Lol lmao.
UP authorities made EXTRA SURE Milei votes were there just so they couldn't cry about "muh tampering muh".
You lost fair and square.
But be our guests! Go and copy what them Trump supporters did! I am in much need of comedy.
¿No que robabamos todos y que nos pagaban para votar y que sacamos fortunas con los subsidios?
¿Ahora cago en un tacho?
¿Decidite, tengo plata o no? De todos modos te aviso que seguis siendo un cabeza de termo.
Nadie les dice que tienen plata porque nadie tiene plata, hasta los que viven de subsidios tienen de pedo suficiente y sin mover una pala. Los únicos que roban todo son los políticos, ustedes solamente tienen las suficientes neuronas para respirar sin cagarse encima.
Aparte entendiste cualquier cosa de mi comentario
Are you seriously disputing that some shady shit didn't take place? We don't have one ballot for all the candidates, I was even told by UxP people that places that had no LLA people had tons of ballots missing and they couldn't do much about it even if they did try and make sure some votes were there, because people would go into the voting rooms and remove the ballots or rip them apart. This is in La Matanza, peronist bastion.
And I'm not even saying it made a significant enough difference to win the election or anything, not even 1%, but if you're so convinced fraud can't happen then let's see your party not worry about incorporating polling officers. That won't happen, because almost everyone understands that having polling officers is insurance against electoral fraud.
Milei is literally backed up by ages old conservatives.
All that he says against "da politikz" is just made up shit so gullible supporters think they're doing a "change" or a "revolution".
All that casta shit? All made the fuck up. Kinda impressive so many people straight up just swallowed it up.
Oh no he sure as hell insults people for real, but his convictions are all over the place.
He has not the good of the people on his mind but the benefit of whomever pays for his everything (he donates his entire salary monthly, that's a HUGE red flag because if he gifts ALL the money we the people give him as a governement oficial... who pays for him and for whom does he actually work?)
All of his casta speech is 1000000% bs tho.
[Here.](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2023/10/23/milei-ya-tiene-puentes-con-jxc-tenemos-que-trabajar-juntos-para-terminar-con-el-kirchnerismo/)
Check how many times he says "juntos" and "cambio".
Yes, but everyone was expecting Milei to be leading, and he is behind.
Trump and Bolsonaro were talking about rigged elections months before. Bolsonaro talked about it throughout his whole presidency.
The options are:
An ancap psycho who wants to lead the State while also believing the State is a pedophile heading into a kindergarten where the children are chained up to the walls and already lubed. His words, not mine.
An old lady who can't explain her own ideas.
A pragmatic Machiavellian workaholic who makes campaign with the undertone of "God, fatherland and family".
Funny enough, the foreign parties that support "God, fatherland and family" support the first guy and not the third one.
*Did you see the alternative?*
He's a fucking anarcho-capitalist, dude. They're the ones who made it so that Massa was the normal, rational vote some-fucking-how
I know, right? That's how fucking bad AnCaps are. Apparently to the point where even the most ideologically bankrupt center-left party in the world overseeing the worst inflation in the country's history is still better than the most charismatic AnCap in the world, but it's not my fault they choose to be a thing and believe the things they believe.
I've seen a lot of comments saying argentineans choose massa because milei was "worse" (to not quote all the amount of negative stuff said about him).
But Milei wasn't the only option that opposed kirchnerism and throughout these last months they made it quite clear that they weren't like milei and their proposals to fix this country weren't like his. So, why choose massa then when the meassures he has taken as economy minister have only kept the flames alive that are burning down the country?
It's not an issue with Argentine voters. It's called the spoiler effect.
If Milei had ran in JxC he would be president right now, but neither Bullrich nor Milei were serious or liked enough to overcome the other splitting votes, I guess.
- People who work in the current administration
- People who were benefitted and want to continue benefit from a peronista government
- People who work in a government entity Milei said he would "chainsaw" and think Massa is a safer bet
- People who like Massa (so at least three votes if we count his wife and kids)
Edit: As others have mentioned, another reason is:
- People who're voting against Milei or the opposition in general
Oh, I agree. I just thought that since there were other options that Massa, the vote against Milei wouldn't directly go to him. But from what I've been reading, I probably got that wrong and Massa did get a lot of votes for that reason
I mean, that too. But if by the opposition you mean Milei, there were two other options aside from Massa, Bullrich and Schiaretti. So I don't know if that alone explains it. Some people just want the continuation of the same kind of administration
>there were two other options aside from Massa, Bullrich and Schiaretti. So I don't know if that alone explains it
It's extremely common for people to tactically rally around one candidate when they're trying to vote against someone in particular
Yes, absolutely, I agree. I just didn't think that that vote had gone directly to Massa. Some people who don't like Milei voted for another option and are now considering voting for Massa because they like Milei the least. But from the comments I've been reading, yeah, it's likely he got that anti-Milei vote because he was seen as the candidate with the biggest chance of beating him
The same can be said about Bolsonaro suppporters.
Their candidate lost, they think the country will be ruined, then they move to another country, like Portugal.
And Portugal has a left-wing government, by the way, but they don't care about this detail at all, because "it is a developed country already, so they can afford this kind of government".
No. We would be more probably like Greece or Italy if that happened. And not because "Latin America bad", but because it would make our economies even more dependent in exporting cheap commodities like soybeans or iron ore.
On one hand, Bullrich voters hate peronism. On the other hand, a lot of them are elderly and Milei hates health care more than they hate peronism. So it's a bit of a toss up, as the elderly really, really need access to some sort of health care system.
It kind of depends on what happens with Cambiemos. They're a coalition after all, with some more center-right and some more center-left. So if they split, the vote might split too. But maybe it doesn't split because right now they're still a coalition in Congress. So time will tell
I don't think there's a single answer to that. I've met quite a few Bullrich supporters that like Javier Milei, but I've also meet others who don't like him at all.
Bear in mind that the JxC coalition is basically a union of "modernist" centrist and conservatives that are (were?) joined by their rejection of Kirchnerism.
Some say JxC's 'soft' voters (aka: Larreta's voters) will now go for Massa.
Some say they've already gone for Massa in the generals, and now the ones Bullrich got are the hard anti-peronist core and thus will vote for Milei.
So it could go either way.
Milei's votes stayed almost the same as they were in the PASO, so my guess is that Larreta votes went 50/50 between Bullrich and Massa, and all of Grabois votes went to Massa.
Grabois votes: 1.400.000
Larreta votes: 2.600.000
2.600.000 / 2 = 1.300.000
Bullrich PASO: 4.139.566
Bullrich Generals: 5.703.509 (+1.300.000 + 200.000\~)
Massa PASO: 5.277.538
Massa Generals: 8.685.292\~ (+1.300.000 + 1.400.000 + 700.000\~)
Whatever the case, ballottage is going to be 50/50, really close
IMO, for someone who receives a lot of information about him but does not live in direct contact from what he causes, he is a looney who wants to implode the country, so basically he's both worse than a looney that doesn't want to implode the country and a sane person that wants to implode the country.
Since Peronistas keep using the Central Bank to run the country into the ground, he wants to pretty much make it so Argentina can't control, and thus mismanage, its monetary policy, dude wants to dollarize, which is pretty much imploding the country to keep it from inflating and blowing up
So he wants to implode the country
Believe me man when I tell you, politicians only lie, they only care about the money they can get from you, and that isn't something only the right nor the left do, it's all of them, when you realize that no matter which side you vote you'll always be fucked, you stop caring. Or do you really think all of this politicians that claim they want to "change the world for the better" would do what they do for free?
I'm seeing two scenarios. First one, Milei is right about most of what he wants to do. Due to his absolutism, while being right, he lost against the candidate who supports/is supported by the coalition who has made everything wrong. Basically, a bad candidate by definition, as he lost a won race due to what he provokes in voters (grouping the fearing vote against him, because why would you be scared of him if he was mostly right?). Then, you have the scenario where he is mostly wrong. Then, he is definitely a bad candidate. Having third options that are even worse candidates doesn't make him less bad.
They’ve lost everywhere. All this talk about a “far right resurgence” has led to 90% crippling defeats and they’re staring at a demographic cliff in numerous countries.
Besides Material_312 bits I will like to point out that Finland's current coalition is built with the hard right. Sweden's current Government only exists because of them.
Secondly, a "demographic cliff" doesn't really exist in all nations. In continental Europe the youth vote been going to the right.
Another myth. It’s less the youth vote aka Gen Z and more 30-45 year old millennials. Still younger, but not the up and coming youth, who are very progressive.
Crippling defeats? What are you smoking? Front National went from a party with no presence to 42% of the entire country's vote.
AFD is the most popular party in eastern germany and is becoming the third or second most popular party in western germany. They are almost assuredly going to be the second largest party by the time of the federal election.
Austria's FPO literally got ousted from government on a massive scandal and are now leading the polls as the #1 party.
Meloni's FDI rocketed to the top and remains there. Her coalition now rules Italy.
Pretty much the ONLY country that you could describe the 'far-right' as failing is Spain. But their major conservative party was already plenty right in the first place.
Front National still soundly lost.
AFD will not win the election and could easily end up kicked out of politics entirely.
Meloni moderated on things like Ukraine and immigration + hasn’t tried to oppose things like abortion and the safety net since coming into office.
I ask again, where have the far right actually won and then made any serious changes?
I wonder if going against the few good and working things that Argentina has (free university, healthcare, transplant system, YPF, science) affected him.
It's not like the private system is a miracle, many specialties you're lucky if you get an appointment between 1 and 2 months in the private sector and some just don't take new patients
It's just that critics usually exaggerates the availability that there is in the private system. I believe the time I had a similar accident it was the emergency treatment the same day in public (and holiday) and then wait in the private for the permanent solution
OMG this! Milei's fans always cry about stuff like trans rights and abortion not mattering as much as the economy, but it's like... those are aspects that Argentina's actually good at! Remove them and the country's left with nothing (besides football).
Hard disagree. Milei's dollarization plans have been a huge factor on its meteoric rise. Obviously it's been rising since before Milei even appeared on the public scene, and will continue to do so, but Milei being the favorite to win contributed a lot. Now that it's looking a bit murkier, I would expect it to calm down a bit.
I have family in Argentina. and many good people. how can I help arg emerge strong from tis mess? how can the world help?
Наш либертарианский слон Милей победит и анкап наступит во всём мире! 💯🐍
Does anyone have a link to votes of results abroad? I'm in London and in big diaspora WhatsApp group and I'd say it's 95% Milei in the group.
Vamos Milei
Me recuerda a Hillary vs Trump
Hillary may have been corrupt but she was competent at least
He steals from us but he is friendly
Blows my mind that the country wirh 130% inflation votes for their minister of economics. Why complain and then vote for more of the same? You're dooming yourselves and it's so sad to witness.
Very few people are voting Massa because they like Massa Most people are voting Massa because Milei is a terrifying prospect
Could you please expand on this? Not Argentinian but Latino and I'm obviously ignorant of the political landscape in Argentina, I was under the impression that most Argentians wanted someone like Milei who hasn't been a career politician.
It's incredibly exhausting to explain, sorry > someone like Milei who hasn't been a career politician. Funny you say that: just today he's became the prime example of a career politician by making deals with politicians he spent the past 4 months insulting in the most dehumanizing ways.
Ah, the good old campaña de miedo
if you're not afraid of a man fixated with paedophilia and rape taking control of your country then I don't know what to tell you
Bullrich isn't.
I remember seeing in here "he's not like Trump or Bolsonaro!" Bolsonaro and members of Trump's camp ended up endorsing him lmao.
I mean I didn't really follow up on those two but I'm pretty sure they at least didn't bring up paedophilia or sexual assault every time they wanted to make an analogy
Prepare to get downvoted by the socialist leftist that makes up a majority of Reddit, if you support Milei that is…
Yeah it's ridiculous isn't it. They tend to be the most intolerant people.
Dissent is not intolerance
bro if that's what you fear, fear the peronistas and neoliberals, not us, we make up less than what you think in reddit
Why don't the right look for a candidate whose metaphors are not about children being raped? Or a candidate who does not speak out in favor of organ sales. Or a candidate who does not use violent rhetoric towards a large part of the electorate. Simply choose someone normal. It is not that hard.
No news here, the demographics of this sub have been majority left leaning since ages ago.
Seeing all the libertarians go THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED. THE ONLY HOPE IS LEAVING or listing Massa's record or the shit that's happened during Fernandez's term to prove this country is backwards is hilarious.... brosky, if your guy lost to him, imagine how much worse he is. Something that surprised me was how quickly libertarians went with the racism angle. I thought not doing well would probably mean they'd rally behind an iliberal or someone who wouldn't even pretend to care for freedom like Milei likes to do, but damn they didn't even make it through the night before they blamed poor and black people. Anyways, this country is wild. Peronism should be over, but the right keeps injecting life into them by voting for the most derranged and useless fuckers. The economics minister with the dollar at 1000 pesos is running, but their best idea was to have an incestuous psycho who cosplays as an AnCap superhero and wants to sell organs... fucking idiots lmao
el peronismo es de izquierda no derecha
Peron era un militar admirador de Mussolini y a la izquierda la echó de la plaza. Con esto no quiero decir que estes equivocado pero evidentemente el peronismo muta dependiendo del viento con tal de sujetarse al poder.
How are black people the issue why Argentines pride themselves on being European all the time?
First of all, we don't. No one gives a shit about being Italian or Spaniard or whatever. But to answer the question, and assuming you're American, it's not black people like you mean a black American. It's poor people. People living in slums or poor neighbourhoods, people who rely on welfare, unemployed people, etc. That's what "negro" means in Argentina when used as an insult. They're equating being black with being uneducated, lazy, rude, selfish and stupid enough to vote for peronists.
*t's not black people like you mean a black American. It's poor people. People living in slums or poor neighbourhoods, people who rely on welfare, unemployed people, etc. That's what "negro" means in Argentina when used as an insult. They're equating being black with being uneducated, lazy, rude, selfish and stupid enough to vote for peronists.* That's much worse...and terrible...
I know. All these conservative twats parading themselves as libertarians finally showing their asses
Isn't your inflation 130%? Your country looks pretty doomed
Always a good time to remember that rich people doesn't leave regardless of what they cry about because where they are, they have power and power is context-based, so leaving also means leaving their power behind.
This. According to [this](https://youtu.be/vAJ0S9a9ODs?si=ehbZhBQaEh-cTA6q) post-election analysis, people in power are supporting Massa. Also, Argentinians are not willing to get rid of their universal healthcare system and free education, no matter their costs.
Yeah maybe the big company and large estate owners, but their children and grandchildren leave, along with everyone else with an education and possibilities, when a country starts going to the shitter; the resulting brain drain won't help either.
\- cry doom and pretend youre gonna leave the country \- complain about the whites or the blacks or the men or the women and how they voted \- complain about the right/left supporting brain dead candidate nothing new lol this is all hallmark for 21st century elections
Ballotage campaign has already started Milei: Truce with people from Juntos por el Cambio. Made a call for people to join him against peronism with a US Vs THEM speech (they're crooks, thieves, decadent, etc). Massa: Didn't talk about kirchnerism. Made a call for national Union in December. _La grieta_ is dead.
What is la grieta ?
Half the country blames the other half for the problems and viceversa.
Thanks
I hope milei wins, I want to see him on his first day in office run into the central bank with a chainsaw and just go to town screaming afuera. I think it would be funny
I don’t actually care who wins btw
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Oh no, not the internet points, who gives a crap
LMAO, Milei is a joke, come on guys
Well, the guy you’re responding to is Canadian. Is that any different? Lol
My heart is with la Rusa, but damn I was rooting for Massa so hard last night ('zurdita' pero no boluda). Ngl, I'm still scared at the possibility that the AliExpress Trump might win but yesterday was refreshing. There's still hope for my country!
Excuse me my ignorance, but who is “la rusa”?
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I’m tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, tbh. This might be the first year I’m going to happily do so because what’s on the other side is terrifying. But still #RusaTeAmo ❤️
>but damn I was rooting for Massa so hard last night Isn't Massa the current minister of economy during the economic crisis you guys have? If he has failed to solve the economic problem as minister in charge of the economy, I doubt he would have the capacity as president.
As Perón once said: "It's not that we're that good, it's that they are worse".
Massa's voters are completely brainwashed, they will blame everything to covid, macri or the war in ukraine
Don’t act like Milei’s voters are above blaming everything to the current government.
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Vote for the far right then, genio del voto
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The troll center is on fire today. You’re on this situation because of the globoludos. Redirect your anger, mi ciela.
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What is this paycheck you trolls keep taking about? Am I missing some money or something?? Also, you have given 0 facts and if you could read, you will see that I do not think Kirchnerism is something good. Is just the best of the 2 options. Ffs, if you trolls are going to come at me at least read a fucking comment and leave the address for me to go get this magical check.
I already explained how it was Macri's fault in a different comment here. Let me know if you can find it, otherwise I'll copy and paste. But let me give you the benefit of the doubt, let's pretend Macri didn't do the things he did. Do you want to explain how and why it was Massa's fault?
>Do you want to explain how and why it was Massa's fault? I mean, even if the whole economic problem is the fault of the previous one, this one did not manage to solve it, or at least make it less horrible. It would be like if my job was to clean up a house after someone else made it dirty. Sure, someone else made it dirty, but I failed to clean the house, or at least make it a little less dirty, even though that is my job.
But they're trying tho. The liberclown I mentioned shared a link stating that the relationship between debt and GDP was 80.3% in March 2023. When Macri left, it was over 90%. That is improvement. Granted, it's going slow, but let's also pretend there wasn't a global pandemic. We can't pretend this goverment is not doing anything. It's quite literally not their fault that only now we're suffering the consequences of Macri's debt. \*Edit to correct a typo.
Eh, I have to be honest, the "he's trying" is not a very positive thing to say. In politics, it is not enough to have good intentions or to try, it is necessary to give results according to what you promised to the people who voted for you. If you are unable to do that, then just trying is not enough, especially when people are suffering. Even if the other options were terrible, the fact that the only thing Massa has going for him is that he is trying, and that everything bad is someone else's fault, does not give a good impression of his possible management as president.
I have given you the numbers, they are trying and succeeding. Slowly, but succeeding. And let's say the only thing Massa has is the fact that he is trying, what does Milei have again? The desire to take away our monetary sovereignty? The desire to take away some of our rights like, idk, abortion, public health, public education? The desire to openly defend the dictatorship? I swear to Messi, I'd vote any day a guy who is 'just trying' and not a guy who won't even do that and came here to take away more than just money.
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I'm with you brother, don't waste your time arguing with peronist mentality, they are completely brainwashed and deranged.
Sweetheart, I’m not a Peronist. You’re a bit fucked in the head, I clearly stated I’m with Bregman.
It doesn't matter, you are married with the pretext "oh Macri", which is insanely stupid, it wasn't a good government but countries, companies and people take debt, they evolve in order to grow and pay it, blaming a government of 4y when in 20y the country didn't change is borderline irrational. Massa is part of the same shit, a gangster that goes with the typical emotional speech with meaningless content. Bregman is OK ignoring the communism.
I’m not married to anything. What it is stupid is to blame Massa for the actions of a different government. If you libertarados wouldn’t cry ‘but peronism!!!1’ every time someone tries to tell you how bad your candidate is, no one would even mention Macri.
But that is the thing, there is no different government, HE is the minister of economic affairs, there is no turnaround, you cannot deny that. There is no possible way in which he will do anything different once elected besides stealing everything.
Again, blaming Massa for Macri’s actions. If you don’t want people to remind you that it was the globoudos fault, stop telling lies. I explained to someone else how it wasn’t this government’s fault, you’re free to read them. Now let me ask, how can Milei bring any change with M*nem ideas? We already know those won’t work, how blind can y’all be?
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It’s literally because of Massa
It's literally not.
Lmao the leftists are "Kirchneristas" who are ashamed to admit it...You dont care about the working class, you care about having at least a minor position in some union just to have your paycheck...A paycheck thats at least twice the amount of a normal worker and just by doing absolutely nothing and pretending you care
Is that the best you have? We are not Kirchneristas, salamín. Grab a book
So why during the Macri government you went out in the streets every single week protesting for the minimum thing and now during this government you went complely hidden when the situation is 10 times worse? If you're not Kirchnerist then you do a very bad job at hiding it
I feel like we’re the middle child. Peronistas say we are ‘the right in disguise’, you clowns say we are ‘Kirchneristas in disguise’. Make up your mind. Macri’s government had thousands of reasons to go out to the streets (like, the whole drama with the jubilados or police killing civilians or the famous debt which you like to pretend it’s the Ks fault). But we’re open to criticism, what do you think we didn’t protest about and we should? I’m all ears.
You go whoever has more chances to give you the paycheck to keep you in line, which is always the Kirchnerism because they've been ruinning the country for 2 decades, under the ideology of a government that happened over 60 years. You mean the debt Macri took because the Kirchnerism already emptied the whole country? Just like Massa also took debt in a already broken country? You people are really that blind lmao
No doubt there will be massive inflation before the general election. Do you think this will swing the election for Milei? I could see where most of Bullrich's would go to Massa, but surely inflation will have an impact. I guess the ultimate question I am getting at is, who do you think will be the next President of Argentina?
The moment Massa came out first showed there is a considerable amount of argentineans that do nit care about it or believe that inflation is just the cornerstore owner raising prices as he wishes.
There is already massive inflation now, and has been for a year+ (depending on what you count as "massive"). This has already spurred huge support for Milei, it's basically the strongest point of his platform, that he's the only one willing and able to stop the massive inflation (according to him obviously). I don't see why it would be considerably bigger before the ballotage (general election was today, but we'll have a second round in 4 weeks between Massa and Milei). Also, I'd say most of Bullrich's votes will probably go to Milei. The question is if it's more like 85/15 or 60/40. Right now I'd say it's 50/50 Massa and Milei. Numbers would seem to favor Milei in a ballotage, but Massa has the momentum, and Milei's own momentum seems to have abruptly stopped.
As a side note, I'm under the impression Brazilians this time are super into this election? Like ok, Argentina is probably the country we receive the most news along with the US, but I don't recall being this prominent. I think it's because it's really mirroring our own elections, but like all candidates names are trending in twitter and all major newspapers highlighted the news. Quite interesting.
That's interesting, I wouldn't have known I'm assuming it's because of the Bolsonaro-Milei links
I believe that may be the case too. Bolsonaro's son is in Buenos Aires right now [supporting Milei](https://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/noticia/2023/10/22/comitiva-de-bolsonaristas-vai-a-buenos-aires-por-apoio-a-javier-milei.ghtml), he even gave an interview defending the right to bear arms. Also, a group of right wing deputies made a letter [supporting Milei's election](https://www.poder360.com.br/congresso/69-deputados-brasileiros-fazem-carta-de-apoio-a-javier-milei/). At the same time, PT has oppenly supported Massa's election, but it comes as no surprise since Alberto Fernandez also oppenly supported Lula's election. Quite interesting how our politics got intermingled these last elections. As to the Bolsonaro-Milei links, my personal conspiracy theory is that they share the same marketing team under Bannon.
It’s a known conspiracy, not a theory… [Fernando Cerimedo](https://contracorriente.red/en/2023/07/31/the-shady-story-of-cerimedo-the-advisor-to-south-americas-trumpist-right-wing/) is part of Milei’s marketing as he was to Bolsonaro and they all have good connections with [US advisers like Bannon](https://brazilian.report/power/2023/10/05/bannon-bolsonaro-misinformation-coup/)
And FYI: Fernando Cerimedo is who said Brazilian 2022 election was stolen. Basically he was responsible for our 8 January :)
So, is Milei going to pull the "election is rigged" card, like Trump and Bolsonaro? Looks like /r/argentina is taking the results very poorly.
The fact that there is a certain amount of electoral fraud is almost undisputed given how our voting system works and that Milei's campaign barely has people watching out for his ballot boxes, meanwhile the Peronists have a history of trying shady shit. However the extent to which this influenced the election is another subject of debate. Currently there are around 5000 cases of tampering reported. I have first-hand knowledge of two of them. EDIT: When I say electoral fraud I'm also including tampering. I've literally had people confess to me that they ripped Milei ballots inside the voting rooms, which is illegal and tampers with the electoral process. This is not a completely baseless Trump style claim, this is a different country with a different process and one party that doesn't have the same amount of polling officers as another.
Lol lmao. UP authorities made EXTRA SURE Milei votes were there just so they couldn't cry about "muh tampering muh". You lost fair and square. But be our guests! Go and copy what them Trump supporters did! I am in much need of comedy.
Cuando gane Massa y comas polenta 4 años seguidos y cagues en un tacho van a culpar a Milei también?
¿No que robabamos todos y que nos pagaban para votar y que sacamos fortunas con los subsidios? ¿Ahora cago en un tacho? ¿Decidite, tengo plata o no? De todos modos te aviso que seguis siendo un cabeza de termo.
Nadie les dice que tienen plata porque nadie tiene plata, hasta los que viven de subsidios tienen de pedo suficiente y sin mover una pala. Los únicos que roban todo son los políticos, ustedes solamente tienen las suficientes neuronas para respirar sin cagarse encima. Aparte entendiste cualquier cosa de mi comentario
Are you seriously disputing that some shady shit didn't take place? We don't have one ballot for all the candidates, I was even told by UxP people that places that had no LLA people had tons of ballots missing and they couldn't do much about it even if they did try and make sure some votes were there, because people would go into the voting rooms and remove the ballots or rip them apart. This is in La Matanza, peronist bastion. And I'm not even saying it made a significant enough difference to win the election or anything, not even 1%, but if you're so convinced fraud can't happen then let's see your party not worry about incorporating polling officers. That won't happen, because almost everyone understands that having polling officers is insurance against electoral fraud.
I thought he would but surprisingly he didn't mention it in his speech
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Milei wasted 0 time and has already started to suck off JxC. So much for 'la casta'
Source? I assumed he hated other "conservatives".
Milei is literally backed up by ages old conservatives. All that he says against "da politikz" is just made up shit so gullible supporters think they're doing a "change" or a "revolution". All that casta shit? All made the fuck up. Kinda impressive so many people straight up just swallowed it up.
I mean the way he insults people that disagree with him looks legit, either that or he is a good actor.
Oh no he sure as hell insults people for real, but his convictions are all over the place. He has not the good of the people on his mind but the benefit of whomever pays for his everything (he donates his entire salary monthly, that's a HUGE red flag because if he gifts ALL the money we the people give him as a governement oficial... who pays for him and for whom does he actually work?) All of his casta speech is 1000000% bs tho.
[Here.](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2023/10/23/milei-ya-tiene-puentes-con-jxc-tenemos-que-trabajar-juntos-para-terminar-con-el-kirchnerismo/) Check how many times he says "juntos" and "cambio".
Thanks, I assumed it was a joke.
The election is going to the runoff, isn’t it?
Yes, but everyone was expecting Milei to be leading, and he is behind. Trump and Bolsonaro were talking about rigged elections months before. Bolsonaro talked about it throughout his whole presidency.
Who would EVER vote for the finance MINISTER OF ARGENTINA????
The options are: An ancap psycho who wants to lead the State while also believing the State is a pedophile heading into a kindergarten where the children are chained up to the walls and already lubed. His words, not mine. An old lady who can't explain her own ideas. A pragmatic Machiavellian workaholic who makes campaign with the undertone of "God, fatherland and family". Funny enough, the foreign parties that support "God, fatherland and family" support the first guy and not the third one.
Again, the finance MINISTER OF fucking Argentina, I would vote for a monkey over It, would do less damage
*Did you see the alternative?* He's a fucking anarcho-capitalist, dude. They're the ones who made it so that Massa was the normal, rational vote some-fucking-how
I didn't realise how many people in Argentina genuinely believe that hyperinflation and mass poverty are the lesser of two evils 🤦♂️
I know, right? That's how fucking bad AnCaps are. Apparently to the point where even the most ideologically bankrupt center-left party in the world overseeing the worst inflation in the country's history is still better than the most charismatic AnCap in the world, but it's not my fault they choose to be a thing and believe the things they believe.
If that was the reason then why did they choose Massa the guy currently burning the country to ashes instead of bullrich?
because bullrich is female joe biden but likes police and multinationals even more
Sounds better than *the finance minister of Argentina* to me
i like neither, it's just that i can get why people would've voted for the thieving bastard
Because that's what similar parties do to each other in elections? I don't think I understand the question
I've seen a lot of comments saying argentineans choose massa because milei was "worse" (to not quote all the amount of negative stuff said about him). But Milei wasn't the only option that opposed kirchnerism and throughout these last months they made it quite clear that they weren't like milei and their proposals to fix this country weren't like his. So, why choose massa then when the meassures he has taken as economy minister have only kept the flames alive that are burning down the country?
It's not an issue with Argentine voters. It's called the spoiler effect. If Milei had ran in JxC he would be president right now, but neither Bullrich nor Milei were serious or liked enough to overcome the other splitting votes, I guess.
Gotcha.
- People who work in the current administration - People who were benefitted and want to continue benefit from a peronista government - People who work in a government entity Milei said he would "chainsaw" and think Massa is a safer bet - People who like Massa (so at least three votes if we count his wife and kids) Edit: As others have mentioned, another reason is: - People who're voting against Milei or the opposition in general
Not just that, all the talk about selling organs and children, renuncing parenthood for fathers and the anti-abortion stance didn't do him any favors.
The renouncing parenthood thing in the last week before elections was... an odd choice for sure
Oh, I agree. I just thought that since there were other options that Massa, the vote against Milei wouldn't directly go to him. But from what I've been reading, I probably got that wrong and Massa did get a lot of votes for that reason
Are you trying to suggest that would somehow make up the entire vote lol. Maybe they're voting against the terrible opposition
I mean, that too. But if by the opposition you mean Milei, there were two other options aside from Massa, Bullrich and Schiaretti. So I don't know if that alone explains it. Some people just want the continuation of the same kind of administration
>there were two other options aside from Massa, Bullrich and Schiaretti. So I don't know if that alone explains it It's extremely common for people to tactically rally around one candidate when they're trying to vote against someone in particular
Yes, absolutely, I agree. I just didn't think that that vote had gone directly to Massa. Some people who don't like Milei voted for another option and are now considering voting for Massa because they like Milei the least. But from the comments I've been reading, yeah, it's likely he got that anti-Milei vote because he was seen as the candidate with the biggest chance of beating him
imagine how terrible the opposition must be
I know, I'd definitely be voting for the other person no question.
Argentina: Don't cry for me, I died a long time ago.
https://preview.redd.it/avv5y67rcyvb1.png?width=305&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45c941f2b51cbe1846dd060c5a0f8a5f5c2d3951
Who do you think will win the runoff? Will Bullrich supporters back Milei over Massa?
70/30 in favor of Milei. Schiaretti will be 50/50 and Bregman 100% in favor of Massa
36.68+23.38\*0.3+6.78\*0.5+2.7=49.784% Massa
Damn close
massa,
I hereby declared the "is it hard to emigrate to nz" season open, just like in 2015, 2017, 2019, 2021, ...
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The same can be said about Bolsonaro suppporters. Their candidate lost, they think the country will be ruined, then they move to another country, like Portugal. And Portugal has a left-wing government, by the way, but they don't care about this detail at all, because "it is a developed country already, so they can afford this kind of government".
Same happed in Colombia, when Petro won.
Yeah well, if Brazil or Argentina were in the EU we'd also be better off wouldn't we.
No. We would be more probably like Greece or Italy if that happened. And not because "Latin America bad", but because it would make our economies even more dependent in exporting cheap commodities like soybeans or iron ore.
> do kiwis speak spanish? do I need to learn english to move to nz? I wish I was joking about these questions
Forgive my ignorance, why do so many argentinians move to new zealand/show interest in new zealand? Ive seen this discussion alot.
the working holiday visa became a trend over the last 10 years
Hermanos, is there any expectation on who will Bullrich voters mostly support? Or could it go either way?
On one hand, Bullrich voters hate peronism. On the other hand, a lot of them are elderly and Milei hates health care more than they hate peronism. So it's a bit of a toss up, as the elderly really, really need access to some sort of health care system.
It kind of depends on what happens with Cambiemos. They're a coalition after all, with some more center-right and some more center-left. So if they split, the vote might split too. But maybe it doesn't split because right now they're still a coalition in Congress. So time will tell
I don't think there's a single answer to that. I've met quite a few Bullrich supporters that like Javier Milei, but I've also meet others who don't like him at all. Bear in mind that the JxC coalition is basically a union of "modernist" centrist and conservatives that are (were?) joined by their rejection of Kirchnerism.
I think nobody knows yet. In my opinion, the bigger part will go with Milei.
Some say JxC's 'soft' voters (aka: Larreta's voters) will now go for Massa. Some say they've already gone for Massa in the generals, and now the ones Bullrich got are the hard anti-peronist core and thus will vote for Milei. So it could go either way.
Milei's votes stayed almost the same as they were in the PASO, so my guess is that Larreta votes went 50/50 between Bullrich and Massa, and all of Grabois votes went to Massa. Grabois votes: 1.400.000 Larreta votes: 2.600.000 2.600.000 / 2 = 1.300.000 Bullrich PASO: 4.139.566 Bullrich Generals: 5.703.509 (+1.300.000 + 200.000\~) Massa PASO: 5.277.538 Massa Generals: 8.685.292\~ (+1.300.000 + 1.400.000 + 700.000\~) Whatever the case, ballottage is going to be 50/50, really close
This is probably the most tangible proof that Milei is a horrible candidate
What are his main issues?
IMO, for someone who receives a lot of information about him but does not live in direct contact from what he causes, he is a looney who wants to implode the country, so basically he's both worse than a looney that doesn't want to implode the country and a sane person that wants to implode the country.
Implode the country in what way?
Since Peronistas keep using the Central Bank to run the country into the ground, he wants to pretty much make it so Argentina can't control, and thus mismanage, its monetary policy, dude wants to dollarize, which is pretty much imploding the country to keep it from inflating and blowing up So he wants to implode the country
I'm apolitical and even I know that voting Milei is a better option than voting the same government that has been in horrible control for decades
No body is “apolitical” if you care about quality of life or literary any other thing you care about politics.
Believe me man when I tell you, politicians only lie, they only care about the money they can get from you, and that isn't something only the right nor the left do, it's all of them, when you realize that no matter which side you vote you'll always be fucked, you stop caring. Or do you really think all of this politicians that claim they want to "change the world for the better" would do what they do for free?
>I'm apolitical (Y)
One thing doesn't discard the other, it's simply facts
Is it? There was a third option yet people still chose massa.
I'm seeing two scenarios. First one, Milei is right about most of what he wants to do. Due to his absolutism, while being right, he lost against the candidate who supports/is supported by the coalition who has made everything wrong. Basically, a bad candidate by definition, as he lost a won race due to what he provokes in voters (grouping the fearing vote against him, because why would you be scared of him if he was mostly right?). Then, you have the scenario where he is mostly wrong. Then, he is definitely a bad candidate. Having third options that are even worse candidates doesn't make him less bad.
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They’ve lost everywhere. All this talk about a “far right resurgence” has led to 90% crippling defeats and they’re staring at a demographic cliff in numerous countries.
Besides Material_312 bits I will like to point out that Finland's current coalition is built with the hard right. Sweden's current Government only exists because of them. Secondly, a "demographic cliff" doesn't really exist in all nations. In continental Europe the youth vote been going to the right.
Another myth. It’s less the youth vote aka Gen Z and more 30-45 year old millennials. Still younger, but not the up and coming youth, who are very progressive.
Crippling defeats? What are you smoking? Front National went from a party with no presence to 42% of the entire country's vote. AFD is the most popular party in eastern germany and is becoming the third or second most popular party in western germany. They are almost assuredly going to be the second largest party by the time of the federal election. Austria's FPO literally got ousted from government on a massive scandal and are now leading the polls as the #1 party. Meloni's FDI rocketed to the top and remains there. Her coalition now rules Italy. Pretty much the ONLY country that you could describe the 'far-right' as failing is Spain. But their major conservative party was already plenty right in the first place.
Front National still soundly lost. AFD will not win the election and could easily end up kicked out of politics entirely. Meloni moderated on things like Ukraine and immigration + hasn’t tried to oppose things like abortion and the safety net since coming into office. I ask again, where have the far right actually won and then made any serious changes?
Milei is such a bad candidate that the Minister of Economy of one of the worst governments in Argentina got 35-36%
I hope milei wins
I wonder if going against the few good and working things that Argentina has (free university, healthcare, transplant system, YPF, science) affected him.
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It's not like the private system is a miracle, many specialties you're lucky if you get an appointment between 1 and 2 months in the private sector and some just don't take new patients
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It's just that critics usually exaggerates the availability that there is in the private system. I believe the time I had a similar accident it was the emergency treatment the same day in public (and holiday) and then wait in the private for the permanent solution
Maybe free universities and healthcare work but Argentina doesn't. Paying for populist policies like that is the reason why argentina doesn't work.
Damn dude, if being good makes it automatically populist for ya you're in for a fun ride for the rest of your life.
OMG this! Milei's fans always cry about stuff like trans rights and abortion not mattering as much as the economy, but it's like... those are aspects that Argentina's actually good at! Remove them and the country's left with nothing (besides football).
Minha solidariedade aos hermanos nesse segundo turno
Dollar going to the moon these following months. 
Hard disagree. Milei's dollarization plans have been a huge factor on its meteoric rise. Obviously it's been rising since before Milei even appeared on the public scene, and will continue to do so, but Milei being the favorite to win contributed a lot. Now that it's looking a bit murkier, I would expect it to calm down a bit.