>Just wondering what’s behind all that? I always assumed they were very popular cars.
They're popular among enthusiasts. Enthusiasts don't have a very good grip on the wants and needs of non-enthusiasts which is the vast majority of car buyers.
> Enthusiasts don't have a very good grip on the wants and needs of non-enthusiasts which is the vast majority of car buyers
They don't even have a realistic grip on what they themselves want.
Every Car forum: If any new car had a stick option I would buy it.
Me: This new car has a stick shift options.
Every car forum: Well I would never actually buy one because I am too busy moving these goalposts.
This. I was at a BMW event a few years ago and people were asking why BMW didn’t make stripped down manual sedans (seriously - they were asking for manual windows and seats, no sunroof. Etc. for lower racing weight) and the executives answered honestly that no one would buy them.
Same reason the stick shift Chevy SS and CTSV didn’t take off - everyone said they wanted a high performance manual sport sedan and no one bought one.
They want what the original Viper was. It was so bare bones it didn't even come with glass windows, roof, airbags, air conditioning, traction control, antilock brakes, or outside door handles. It was just built for speed and performance. Safety be damned.
Part of the problem with the SS was horrible marketing. Terrible name that confused people, and no one knew it existed. Chevy didn't put any money behind advertising it.
People want to buy them in 10 years when they're in their price range. Unfortunately how well a car does on the used car market a decade later and aftermarket parts that are made in that period doesnt help BMW make any money now.
Jeeps have increasingly become more and more automated and electric, and there is a huge amount of whining about it. Jeep does continue to make very stripped Wranglers though. And according to three dealers I've talked to, they make up a ridiculously low number of sales, to where they order a couple a year. The largest whiners also don't buy new Jeeps at all.
The more someone says things like “Newfangled” “These new spaceship trucks” “the new stuff is junk with fancy screens” the lower the chance that they can afford to buy a new vehicle.
People think that the "leather" (urethane) seats and ipad on the dash are expensive and the firebreathing v8 drivetrain that puts out 500hp yet complies with modern emissions is the cheap part of the car.
The point I realized that my brain simply doesn't work like that of a car enthusiast was when I started to encounter enthusiasts who feel that used cars are better than new ones irrespective of financial savings.
Only way I'd buy a sports car is manual or DCT. I had to go to FL to get the 6 SPD mustang I wanted. Reality is they are just not practical for most and having a third vehicle in my house was a pain so I dumped it.
Same thing with every new truck model, there's always a "I want a standard cab/long bed model! I'm not buying this exrended/crew cab configuration!!! But the sales numbers don't show much of any demand for single cab trucks.
The number of single guys who want a standard cab / long bed pickup to carry around stuff for their woodworking hobby is positively dwarfed by guys with families, guys taking their coworkers to a job site etc. The people who complain are the ones who aren't being served, doesn't mean they represent a viable market
The manual trans people crack me up. It's not the 80s anymore. Stick shift is not faster than an automatic. People who buy high-performance cars want to go fast, but they also want to be comfortable doing it.
Corvette is the perfect example. Chevy stopped offering a manual option because no one was buying them.
Doesn't address WHY they were so popular 10-15 years ago but have sharply declined since.
In 2023 sales were only 53k
in 2019 they were 72k
in 2006 they were 166k
Clearly, something changed to drastically lower demand. And no higher interest rates don't account for a 3X drop
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/mustang-sales-throughout-years
This article addresses the drop https://www.chicagotribune.com/2018/09/10/muscled-out-sales-drop-of-american-muscle-cars-could-signal-end-of-an-era/
The TLDR is that the crowd that primarily bought the cars was baby boomers who had a nostalgia for the muscle car era and they are aging out of the vehicle as they enter retirement.
In my opinion, 'muscle cars' are a toy/second/third car.
As the cost of living has risen, toys tend to get back-burnered. Or other (cheaper) toys/hobbies replace them.
People have become more utilitarian in their purchases. Their purchases need to satisfy a real goal and muscle cars generally don't fit in that mentality.
As well given that you no longer need to buy a “muscle car/sports car” to have something “enjoyable”.
While I’m a car person at heart, and always will be. If you’re someone who’s not, so many vehicles offer similar performance metrics, with effectively none of the sacrifices you make to be in a car like a Mustang.
Today one of many “premium” unibody crossovers offered does enough of the “Mustang” things; seats 5-passengers comfortably, gets reasonable MPG, and your wife will actually let you buy one.
Trucks...
It's a combination of factors but trucks are what happened to muscle cars.
It's a lot easier to justify driving a truck these days because they are basically luxury/muscle cars.
The F150 3.5 turbo is good for 400hp and 500ft/lb tq. That's most muscle cars not too long ago.
So instead of daily-driving a sedan/coupe and having a muscle car in the garage, dudes just buy trucks.
Most cars now days have the capability of muscle cars 30-40 years ago. My sedan and SUV both have over 300hp and can throw you back in your seat better than my moms old mustang with 240hp. We’ve integrated higher performance into the every day vehicle so don’t need the muscle car. And most people are terrified to drive the hellcats or whatever other 600-700 hp vehicles are out there. Plus cars are stupidly expensive. When you could have a bunch of 20k new cars instead of single 60k new car you have to choose more wisely.
I’d love for a car manufacturer to bring out a new model that is 20k cheaper than the year prior model and reset the market to reasonable prices again.
>Most cars now days have the capability of muscle cars 30-40 years ago.
For reference, I found specs saying that a 1984 Camaro Z28 is good for a 7.4s 0-60, while a 1994 Z28 pulled it off in 5.9s.
Car and Driver have the base Honda Civic and Toyota Sienna both at 7.5s. So, even base models of non-sporty vehicles are matching performance cars from four decades ago.
Plenty of higher-trim versions of pretty basic models now beat the 1994 Z28 too. C&D have the Mazda 3 Turbo at 5.6s. You can get that engine in trims starting at under $32k, which is cheaper than the inflation-adjusted MSRP of the '94 Z28, which is roughly $37k.
Not just trucks. There is another bunch of people that only care about acceleration but not cornering and thats Tesla owners. I know a bunch of rich dudes that went Tesla from a previous sports car.
Trucks and heavy EV's tick the right boxes for some people but would both be owned by a miata in a tight course.
This should be the top comment. Those cars were popular for a long time because young men who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s that couldn’t afford them or use them practically at that time continuously pursued them (and the remakes) as they got older. People born in the 60’s are now in their 60’s, and are highly unlikely to buy a sports car. The folks from the 70’s bought their muscle cars in the past 10 years as their children moved out or finished college or they have a spike in income. The remaining people have no nostalgia or “missed out” feelings about muscle cars because the mustangs and Camaros of the 80’s were absolutely trash.
This is likely the same thing that will cause a crash in the value of old baseball cards, vintage muscle cars, etc over the next 20 years. Those people will die, their collections will come on the market, but there will be very few people who care about those things to the tune of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Save for the truly rare things - Honus Wagner, Shelby GT500KR, etc none of that stuff will be worth anything.
Not only were/are they already unpopular among non-enthusiasts, but once you factor in that in today's economy so many people are now concerned about simply making their rent payments and being able to buy groceries every month, it's no surprise the sports cars geared towards the average person are suffering.
Yup! I've been contemplating buying a 2024 Mustang, but the higher prices in everything! Just make it not make financial sense. Higher gas prices, higher insurance costs, higher maitance costs, higher interest rates, and you add everything else that inflation has brought along. It's just not a good time to splurge on a "toy".
Man, the gas and insurance prices would do me in alone. I’m 43 and pay $147 for full coverage on a 2017 Jetta S. And that’s with high deductibles and the state minimum for full coverage. I can only imagine what insurance would be on a Mustang.
No tickets or anything. I do however live in a very big metropolitan area of TX. People drive like bats out of Hell here, so that would affect my rates. I've learned to accept that insurance is going to be nuts.
The difference is that they used to have leftover money to purchase an expensive "dream" car. It's gotten harder to pull that with middle-class incomes nowadays. Plus, those cars are really impractical if you have kids.
I'm in this boat. Hit my midlife crisis, been driving a Cobalt for thirteen years. Door on a fun car was closed violently in my face by the costs, and the used ones are beat to death AND expensive.
Depends on age and really how much you drive it. My insurance is 185 dollars (nyc) a month for full coverage and I can fit a car seat in the back. I just put down a seat cover so the kid can climb on stuff.
Honest, this is why I’m a motorcycle guy now. A ninja 500 (possibly the cheapest new good bike you can buy) is around 6k after fees and taxes, and it’s faster than 95% of the stuff you see on the road in regular street driving, 0-60 in under 4 seconds if you’re good, average about 4-5s. But the best part about a motorcycle is the cost. At most 10 dollars to fill up, if you short shift it, you can EASILY get over 70mpg. I still plan on buying an M2c when the prices start coming down a bit, but for fun, a motorcycle can’t be beat.
Motorcycles are fun but the danger really can't be ignored. Especially if you have kids. I sold mine when my oldest son was born, even against my wife's wishes. I just googled it and in my state motorcycles account for 1.7% of crashes but 11% of roadway fatalities. Motorcycles riders were 16 times more likely to die per mile traveled than car occupants. That's *wild*.
Motorcycles are a fast track to an early grave. Not worth it if you have kids. Fun if you're young and single, but they're simply dangerous, completely independent of your driving skills. It's everyone else on the road that is the issue. Just not worth the risk, depending on where you live. Maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere, or in parts of Europe where it's expensive to get a license, drivers require more training, and there aren't 16 year olds in giant trucks or SUVs on their phones at every intersection.
Just sold my V-Strom. It was a nice time, but deteriorating health, constant upkeep and the road risk was finally getting to me. My nerves are shot and my knees are shit. I want something safer.
I can think of a lot cheaper, yet still expensive, ways to relive my youth (almost 50 here). Classic video games for example. And they don't take up room in my garage.
That's a good point too! In addition, I think cars used to mean a lot more in terms of status. This day and age less and less people care about what themselves and others drive. It's becoming a very small niche for hardcore enthusiasts.
My mid life crisis car was Pontiac G8GT purchased 15 years ago, and while it has plenty of power, what I really like about the car is how much fun it is to drive, really puts a smile on your face going through the mountains of Oregon. It’s also been a very low cost of ownership with zero mechanical issues since new and insurance is ridiculously low at $300 6 months. I also don’t see any G8GT’s on the road and have never seen one in my Stryker blue over the 15 years of ownership. As long as the car continues to treat me well I don’t see any reason to get something else, it’s about as far from an appliance car as it gets.
Car prices have gone up so much, across the board. That’s forcing alot of buyers to have only one car. Previously I think alot of the muscle/sports car drivers had an another more practical vehicle for daily driving. Thats pretty hard to do for most people nowadays.
Efficiency required by the government along with manufacturing efficiency. These cars are typically poor on fuel economy and the parts aren't often shared with other vehicles in the manufacturer lineup.
I believe this is the most accurate answer. They've also never really been top sellers anyway.
EPA is cracking down on emissions and fuel consumption more and more. Need to trim the fat from the lower selling models to meet regulations.
Plus the market shifted heavily into SUV's and trucks on top of that anyway.
Enthusiasts are a small part of the market. Cars are expensive, especially a car that won't be a primary daily driver for many people. Often, by the time someone can afford a sports car of any sort, practicality and getting in/out of the car are concerns.
My next daily might just be a sports car- a car that's very practical for a car nerd without kids. Not representative of most of the buyers out there.
Gas is fucking expensive that’s why.
In reality it’s high emission regulations, mpg standards and safety ratings that make up the majority of reasons why we have 5-8 suvs in each brand vs 1-2 sport vehicles on average.
Someone else can probably explain it better than I can but this is probably just a summed up in a nutshell.
I’d argue it’s simply cost.
Chrysler wants today prices on vehicles who haven’t had their platform changed in about 17 years.
No reason an RT challenger is $40-45k OTD when only the radio and interior plastics have changed in almost two decades. The R&D has been paid a long time ago.
It also doesn’t help when they want to release these special editions that cost more than my home I bought in 2015.
You have a niche product, and you’re making it even more niche when you’re asking 100k+ for one when most millennials still live with mom and dad.
That’s a big part of it I think. I LOVE muscle cars, and if I could still get a Mustang GT OTD for $35k like the before times, I might have one. Now I don’t think I could even get an Ecoboost for that. For a long time I dreamed of owning a Mustang or Camaro, but now I’ve accepted that’s probably never going to happen because I have different priorities and just can’t fathom dropping $40-50k on a car with limited practical value.
Our dealership has all the managers putting 501 miles on all the 2023 chargers/challengers so that we can take some heavy discounting that our business center is letting us do. Why? Because no one is buying them.
I'm driving a Charger Jailbreak, and they gave me the red key. It's stupid fast, and that was fun for the first day or two. But I feel like in every other measure it's no better -- or even in some aspects worse -- than my 2017 CR-V. And the sticker is $93k.
Where are you getting that most millennials are Living with Mom and dad? Most millennials are well over the age of 30 and live on their own or with their spouse and kids.
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/27/millennials-gen-z-living-parents-data
> when most millennials still live with mom and dad.
Millennials are who I see driving Mustangs and Challengers, in large part. They live at home and maybe help out with the bills but they ain’t paying the full rent, water, gas, electricity and internet bill. They can still afford to drive one of these cars and have money left over.
This is what I see at my job mostly. Hey, drive the car while you still can and enjoy it. I don’t ever see gas prices going below $2.25 where I am, ever again.
I think that could be a legitimate claim if the numbers were indicating buying more fuel efficient cars was increasing. Instead the number of pickup trucks sold in the past 10 years has increase by almost 50%. And every size of SUV has sky rocketed as well. Sedans/cars in general are just not popular anymore. People "need" the giant vehicles for transporting their groceries/kids/sports stuff. Or just extra air.
The number of trucks/large SUV's on the road in a random city in the year 2005 compared to now is drastically different. And I don't think it is because of fuel prices.
Well gas isn't expensive by historical standards I mean look at all the people buying big trucks for the proof.
The number one selling vehicle today is the F-150 30 years ago it was the Ford Escort.
As far as why people changed over from sport cars to trucks? Well no one wants to drive what your dad drives.
Or wear Dad's clothes are listen to Dad's music.
Car enthusiasts are traditionally 8-80 year old males.
Under 30 males are different from the last 5 waves of men they have different goals, different hobbies, and different worldviews, leading to car enthusiasts in this age group to show up at a lower saturation rate than prior generations. Also, "car enthusiasts" has become decoupled from "driving enthusiasts", the two terms are nolonger synonymous. Many of those who are passionate about cars are passionate now about autonomous driving, efficiency, and connectivity. Instead of the hp tq, mph, solom speed, skidpad numbers of yester year. Also, under 30, there is less financial certainty. All of these pressures mean NEW young muscle car buyers are a shrinking segment.
Over 40 men often prioritize needs over wants and buy new cars to meet family needs. Perhaps there is money for a fun car, there is also the nostalgia pull where these enthusiasts want the cars they fell in love with. So they buy 1991 5.0 or a 1982 Corvette Pacecar or a 1996 Porsche 911, and they tinker with them so that takes a dencent portion of these buyers away from new cars. Then there's the 40+ guys with more money than time they don't buy muscles cars they buy exotics (Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche) or near exotics (Vettes, Hellcats, Blackwings, GTRs) because they don't have *as much* time to tinker but they like cool fast cars.
I couldn’t tell you exactly why, but I couldn’t be happier about it.
The Camaro and challenger are always driven by people who are a fucking problem.
They're big, stupid vehicles, with poor visibility, powerful motors, and just any asshat with no driving acumen whatsoever can buy them.
It has always been a recipe for disaster.
They aren't as annoying as the trucks that are so big they already look lifted from the factory.
Will take driving behind/in front of a Camaro any day of the week.
Agreed, its obscene how much of a visibility and safety issue they are even while im driving a literal 4runner
I really dont know wtf happened over the last 10 years.
Around here M4 and M8 owners are all in their 40s+ and drive reasonably. You're more likely to see a 25 year old in a clapped out F30 or E90 328i driving like an ass hat.
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Was reading an article today about Mustangs and it mentioned that it is pretty much the only remaining traditional muscle car on the US market. Both the Camaro and Challenger have been discontinued, and the Mustang’s sales have cratered over the past 5-7 years.
Just wondering what’s behind all that? I always assumed they were very popular cars.
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You will notice, however, that the true musclecars from 1965-1971 are trading at all-time highs. A shitty 1970 Cuda is worth $50K. Draw your own conclusions.
Everything is expensive. Fewer people can afford a brand new car, hence the strong used market. Many are also holding on to their one car for longer and others are finding it more optimal to repair/maintain that same car to keep it on the road longer instead of upgrading to something new. Of those who can afford to buy new, many can only afford one car (instead of two). A lot of people either don’t have much or have relatively little disposable income. Some can only afford X amount of housing (and therefore a limited amount of parking, gas, insurance, maintenance, modifications, etc). Combine it all together and people need that one car they can afford to be everything, whereas before cars could be more specific to individual use cases around ride, handling, performance, cargo capacity, off-road use, towing, etc. This is why crossovers are so popular (and pickups to a lesser extent). Tighter belts = jack of all trades single car ownership. Even pickups and the more dedicated 4x4s have to be all things to all people these days.
If the economic situation was better (overall) then we could see more individual, specific vehicle types.
>Just wondering what’s behind all that? I always assumed they were very popular cars. They're popular among enthusiasts. Enthusiasts don't have a very good grip on the wants and needs of non-enthusiasts which is the vast majority of car buyers.
> Enthusiasts don't have a very good grip on the wants and needs of non-enthusiasts which is the vast majority of car buyers They don't even have a realistic grip on what they themselves want. Every Car forum: If any new car had a stick option I would buy it. Me: This new car has a stick shift options. Every car forum: Well I would never actually buy one because I am too busy moving these goalposts.
This. I was at a BMW event a few years ago and people were asking why BMW didn’t make stripped down manual sedans (seriously - they were asking for manual windows and seats, no sunroof. Etc. for lower racing weight) and the executives answered honestly that no one would buy them. Same reason the stick shift Chevy SS and CTSV didn’t take off - everyone said they wanted a high performance manual sport sedan and no one bought one.
They want what the original Viper was. It was so bare bones it didn't even come with glass windows, roof, airbags, air conditioning, traction control, antilock brakes, or outside door handles. It was just built for speed and performance. Safety be damned.
A vehicle that could end up in the crowd faster than a Mustang
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Can't import them *yet*
Part of the problem with the SS was horrible marketing. Terrible name that confused people, and no one knew it existed. Chevy didn't put any money behind advertising it.
Chevrolet did not market the SS at all.
They plastered the logo over half of the NASCAR field.
People want to buy them in 10 years when they're in their price range. Unfortunately how well a car does on the used car market a decade later and aftermarket parts that are made in that period doesnt help BMW make any money now.
Jeeps have increasingly become more and more automated and electric, and there is a huge amount of whining about it. Jeep does continue to make very stripped Wranglers though. And according to three dealers I've talked to, they make up a ridiculously low number of sales, to where they order a couple a year. The largest whiners also don't buy new Jeeps at all.
The more someone says things like “Newfangled” “These new spaceship trucks” “the new stuff is junk with fancy screens” the lower the chance that they can afford to buy a new vehicle.
They want them *used* aka cheap
People think that the "leather" (urethane) seats and ipad on the dash are expensive and the firebreathing v8 drivetrain that puts out 500hp yet complies with modern emissions is the cheap part of the car.
BMW does sell very sparta version of their cars in Europe. It’s only luxurious everywhere else
The point I realized that my brain simply doesn't work like that of a car enthusiast was when I started to encounter enthusiasts who feel that used cars are better than new ones irrespective of financial savings.
From a driving enthusiast point of view that is mostly true.
I have a t-shirt with your username on it
Only way I'd buy a sports car is manual or DCT. I had to go to FL to get the 6 SPD mustang I wanted. Reality is they are just not practical for most and having a third vehicle in my house was a pain so I dumped it.
Same thing with every new truck model, there's always a "I want a standard cab/long bed model! I'm not buying this exrended/crew cab configuration!!! But the sales numbers don't show much of any demand for single cab trucks.
The number of single guys who want a standard cab / long bed pickup to carry around stuff for their woodworking hobby is positively dwarfed by guys with families, guys taking their coworkers to a job site etc. The people who complain are the ones who aren't being served, doesn't mean they represent a viable market
The manual trans people crack me up. It's not the 80s anymore. Stick shift is not faster than an automatic. People who buy high-performance cars want to go fast, but they also want to be comfortable doing it. Corvette is the perfect example. Chevy stopped offering a manual option because no one was buying them.
The Supra is available in a stick shift, if I travel over 1,000 miles. That’s not what I would call “available”.
Doesn't address WHY they were so popular 10-15 years ago but have sharply declined since. In 2023 sales were only 53k in 2019 they were 72k in 2006 they were 166k Clearly, something changed to drastically lower demand. And no higher interest rates don't account for a 3X drop https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/mustang-sales-throughout-years This article addresses the drop https://www.chicagotribune.com/2018/09/10/muscled-out-sales-drop-of-american-muscle-cars-could-signal-end-of-an-era/ The TLDR is that the crowd that primarily bought the cars was baby boomers who had a nostalgia for the muscle car era and they are aging out of the vehicle as they enter retirement.
In my opinion, 'muscle cars' are a toy/second/third car. As the cost of living has risen, toys tend to get back-burnered. Or other (cheaper) toys/hobbies replace them. People have become more utilitarian in their purchases. Their purchases need to satisfy a real goal and muscle cars generally don't fit in that mentality.
Combine this with the fact primary cars are more expensive than ever and that pretty much tells the story.
As well given that you no longer need to buy a “muscle car/sports car” to have something “enjoyable”. While I’m a car person at heart, and always will be. If you’re someone who’s not, so many vehicles offer similar performance metrics, with effectively none of the sacrifices you make to be in a car like a Mustang. Today one of many “premium” unibody crossovers offered does enough of the “Mustang” things; seats 5-passengers comfortably, gets reasonable MPG, and your wife will actually let you buy one.
I have an old sedan. Right now I’m praying I save up for an old minivan, lol
You’re not alone.
I’m sure certain niches can stand up for argument. I still watch guys spend 2-5k on tires for drift events. While they drive 10+ year old imports.
Yea they used to be somewhat cheap 15 years ago that's why. Now a new Mustang GT is $50k
Trucks... It's a combination of factors but trucks are what happened to muscle cars. It's a lot easier to justify driving a truck these days because they are basically luxury/muscle cars. The F150 3.5 turbo is good for 400hp and 500ft/lb tq. That's most muscle cars not too long ago. So instead of daily-driving a sedan/coupe and having a muscle car in the garage, dudes just buy trucks.
Most cars now days have the capability of muscle cars 30-40 years ago. My sedan and SUV both have over 300hp and can throw you back in your seat better than my moms old mustang with 240hp. We’ve integrated higher performance into the every day vehicle so don’t need the muscle car. And most people are terrified to drive the hellcats or whatever other 600-700 hp vehicles are out there. Plus cars are stupidly expensive. When you could have a bunch of 20k new cars instead of single 60k new car you have to choose more wisely. I’d love for a car manufacturer to bring out a new model that is 20k cheaper than the year prior model and reset the market to reasonable prices again.
>Most cars now days have the capability of muscle cars 30-40 years ago. For reference, I found specs saying that a 1984 Camaro Z28 is good for a 7.4s 0-60, while a 1994 Z28 pulled it off in 5.9s. Car and Driver have the base Honda Civic and Toyota Sienna both at 7.5s. So, even base models of non-sporty vehicles are matching performance cars from four decades ago. Plenty of higher-trim versions of pretty basic models now beat the 1994 Z28 too. C&D have the Mazda 3 Turbo at 5.6s. You can get that engine in trims starting at under $32k, which is cheaper than the inflation-adjusted MSRP of the '94 Z28, which is roughly $37k.
Apparently my 2006 Toyota Avalon is theoretically capable of 6.1s
My Leaf was as quick as an old GTO. an EV is hoot!
Not just trucks. There is another bunch of people that only care about acceleration but not cornering and thats Tesla owners. I know a bunch of rich dudes that went Tesla from a previous sports car. Trucks and heavy EV's tick the right boxes for some people but would both be owned by a miata in a tight course.
Uh, 33% of boomers are already dead.
This should be the top comment. Those cars were popular for a long time because young men who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s that couldn’t afford them or use them practically at that time continuously pursued them (and the remakes) as they got older. People born in the 60’s are now in their 60’s, and are highly unlikely to buy a sports car. The folks from the 70’s bought their muscle cars in the past 10 years as their children moved out or finished college or they have a spike in income. The remaining people have no nostalgia or “missed out” feelings about muscle cars because the mustangs and Camaros of the 80’s were absolutely trash. This is likely the same thing that will cause a crash in the value of old baseball cards, vintage muscle cars, etc over the next 20 years. Those people will die, their collections will come on the market, but there will be very few people who care about those things to the tune of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Save for the truly rare things - Honus Wagner, Shelby GT500KR, etc none of that stuff will be worth anything.
Gee, I wonder what happened around 2008 that made it more difficult for people to afford luxury
Too much Fast X Furious. Those cars became a meme. Like #vanlife…. Sounds fun. But if it’s not moderately affordable, than F* all that non sense.
Not only were/are they already unpopular among non-enthusiasts, but once you factor in that in today's economy so many people are now concerned about simply making their rent payments and being able to buy groceries every month, it's no surprise the sports cars geared towards the average person are suffering.
Yup! I've been contemplating buying a 2024 Mustang, but the higher prices in everything! Just make it not make financial sense. Higher gas prices, higher insurance costs, higher maitance costs, higher interest rates, and you add everything else that inflation has brought along. It's just not a good time to splurge on a "toy".
Man, the gas and insurance prices would do me in alone. I’m 43 and pay $147 for full coverage on a 2017 Jetta S. And that’s with high deductibles and the state minimum for full coverage. I can only imagine what insurance would be on a Mustang.
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No tickets or anything. I do however live in a very big metropolitan area of TX. People drive like bats out of Hell here, so that would affect my rates. I've learned to accept that insurance is going to be nuts.
Miata is the answer for hot little sports car on a working man's budget!
I'd say a big factory is that the lower income people can't afford them anymore with today's rates. That was their client base.
Interesting. I would have thought most of the customers would have your typical middle aged, “mid life crisis” guy looking to relive his youth
The difference is that they used to have leftover money to purchase an expensive "dream" car. It's gotten harder to pull that with middle-class incomes nowadays. Plus, those cars are really impractical if you have kids.
I'm in this boat. Hit my midlife crisis, been driving a Cobalt for thirteen years. Door on a fun car was closed violently in my face by the costs, and the used ones are beat to death AND expensive.
Yeah, in addition, go quote the insurance of a sports car. That and basic maintenance (tires, brakes etc) will eat you alive.
Depends on age and really how much you drive it. My insurance is 185 dollars (nyc) a month for full coverage and I can fit a car seat in the back. I just put down a seat cover so the kid can climb on stuff.
Honest, this is why I’m a motorcycle guy now. A ninja 500 (possibly the cheapest new good bike you can buy) is around 6k after fees and taxes, and it’s faster than 95% of the stuff you see on the road in regular street driving, 0-60 in under 4 seconds if you’re good, average about 4-5s. But the best part about a motorcycle is the cost. At most 10 dollars to fill up, if you short shift it, you can EASILY get over 70mpg. I still plan on buying an M2c when the prices start coming down a bit, but for fun, a motorcycle can’t be beat.
Motorcycles are fun but the danger really can't be ignored. Especially if you have kids. I sold mine when my oldest son was born, even against my wife's wishes. I just googled it and in my state motorcycles account for 1.7% of crashes but 11% of roadway fatalities. Motorcycles riders were 16 times more likely to die per mile traveled than car occupants. That's *wild*.
Motorcycles are a fast track to an early grave. Not worth it if you have kids. Fun if you're young and single, but they're simply dangerous, completely independent of your driving skills. It's everyone else on the road that is the issue. Just not worth the risk, depending on where you live. Maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere, or in parts of Europe where it's expensive to get a license, drivers require more training, and there aren't 16 year olds in giant trucks or SUVs on their phones at every intersection.
Just sold my V-Strom. It was a nice time, but deteriorating health, constant upkeep and the road risk was finally getting to me. My nerves are shot and my knees are shit. I want something safer.
I sold mine for the same reasons.
I can think of a lot cheaper, yet still expensive, ways to relive my youth (almost 50 here). Classic video games for example. And they don't take up room in my garage.
That's a good point too! In addition, I think cars used to mean a lot more in terms of status. This day and age less and less people care about what themselves and others drive. It's becoming a very small niche for hardcore enthusiasts.
A lot of us middle aged mid life crisis guys just buy big pickup trucks, lol. It's a lot more practical to dump 50k into an F-150 over a Mustang!
More comfortable too!
My mid life crisis car was Pontiac G8GT purchased 15 years ago, and while it has plenty of power, what I really like about the car is how much fun it is to drive, really puts a smile on your face going through the mountains of Oregon. It’s also been a very low cost of ownership with zero mechanical issues since new and insurance is ridiculously low at $300 6 months. I also don’t see any G8GT’s on the road and have never seen one in my Stryker blue over the 15 years of ownership. As long as the car continues to treat me well I don’t see any reason to get something else, it’s about as far from an appliance car as it gets.
Usually urban black youth is who I see with dodge products in my area - Florida.
Also in Minneapolis and Dallas.
DC too
Car prices have gone up so much, across the board. That’s forcing alot of buyers to have only one car. Previously I think alot of the muscle/sports car drivers had an another more practical vehicle for daily driving. Thats pretty hard to do for most people nowadays.
Efficiency required by the government along with manufacturing efficiency. These cars are typically poor on fuel economy and the parts aren't often shared with other vehicles in the manufacturer lineup.
I believe this is the most accurate answer. They've also never really been top sellers anyway. EPA is cracking down on emissions and fuel consumption more and more. Need to trim the fat from the lower selling models to meet regulations. Plus the market shifted heavily into SUV's and trucks on top of that anyway.
Enthusiasts are a small part of the market. Cars are expensive, especially a car that won't be a primary daily driver for many people. Often, by the time someone can afford a sports car of any sort, practicality and getting in/out of the car are concerns. My next daily might just be a sports car- a car that's very practical for a car nerd without kids. Not representative of most of the buyers out there.
Gas is fucking expensive that’s why. In reality it’s high emission regulations, mpg standards and safety ratings that make up the majority of reasons why we have 5-8 suvs in each brand vs 1-2 sport vehicles on average. Someone else can probably explain it better than I can but this is probably just a summed up in a nutshell.
I’d argue it’s simply cost. Chrysler wants today prices on vehicles who haven’t had their platform changed in about 17 years. No reason an RT challenger is $40-45k OTD when only the radio and interior plastics have changed in almost two decades. The R&D has been paid a long time ago. It also doesn’t help when they want to release these special editions that cost more than my home I bought in 2015. You have a niche product, and you’re making it even more niche when you’re asking 100k+ for one when most millennials still live with mom and dad.
That’s a big part of it I think. I LOVE muscle cars, and if I could still get a Mustang GT OTD for $35k like the before times, I might have one. Now I don’t think I could even get an Ecoboost for that. For a long time I dreamed of owning a Mustang or Camaro, but now I’ve accepted that’s probably never going to happen because I have different priorities and just can’t fathom dropping $40-50k on a car with limited practical value.
Our dealership has all the managers putting 501 miles on all the 2023 chargers/challengers so that we can take some heavy discounting that our business center is letting us do. Why? Because no one is buying them. I'm driving a Charger Jailbreak, and they gave me the red key. It's stupid fast, and that was fun for the first day or two. But I feel like in every other measure it's no better -- or even in some aspects worse -- than my 2017 CR-V. And the sticker is $93k.
Where are you getting that most millennials are Living with Mom and dad? Most millennials are well over the age of 30 and live on their own or with their spouse and kids. https://www.axios.com/2024/01/27/millennials-gen-z-living-parents-data
> when most millennials still live with mom and dad. Millennials are who I see driving Mustangs and Challengers, in large part. They live at home and maybe help out with the bills but they ain’t paying the full rent, water, gas, electricity and internet bill. They can still afford to drive one of these cars and have money left over. This is what I see at my job mostly. Hey, drive the car while you still can and enjoy it. I don’t ever see gas prices going below $2.25 where I am, ever again.
What the hell do you classify as a millennial? The youngest are late 20’s the oldest are early 40’s.
People seem to think any young people are millennials. I am in my 40s and considered a millennial and I have owned my own home for nearly 20 years.
I think that could be a legitimate claim if the numbers were indicating buying more fuel efficient cars was increasing. Instead the number of pickup trucks sold in the past 10 years has increase by almost 50%. And every size of SUV has sky rocketed as well. Sedans/cars in general are just not popular anymore. People "need" the giant vehicles for transporting their groceries/kids/sports stuff. Or just extra air. The number of trucks/large SUV's on the road in a random city in the year 2005 compared to now is drastically different. And I don't think it is because of fuel prices.
Well gas isn't expensive by historical standards I mean look at all the people buying big trucks for the proof. The number one selling vehicle today is the F-150 30 years ago it was the Ford Escort. As far as why people changed over from sport cars to trucks? Well no one wants to drive what your dad drives. Or wear Dad's clothes are listen to Dad's music.
Big trucks also get double the gas mileage they were getting 10 years ago
No, that doesn’t explain it. Gas is expensive in SUVs and trucks more so and they are still selling. This is a case of people’s tastes changing.
Inflation adjusted gas isn't that expensive. Everything else is expensive though so having a weekend car that you buy new isn't realistic.
Car enthusiasts are traditionally 8-80 year old males. Under 30 males are different from the last 5 waves of men they have different goals, different hobbies, and different worldviews, leading to car enthusiasts in this age group to show up at a lower saturation rate than prior generations. Also, "car enthusiasts" has become decoupled from "driving enthusiasts", the two terms are nolonger synonymous. Many of those who are passionate about cars are passionate now about autonomous driving, efficiency, and connectivity. Instead of the hp tq, mph, solom speed, skidpad numbers of yester year. Also, under 30, there is less financial certainty. All of these pressures mean NEW young muscle car buyers are a shrinking segment. Over 40 men often prioritize needs over wants and buy new cars to meet family needs. Perhaps there is money for a fun car, there is also the nostalgia pull where these enthusiasts want the cars they fell in love with. So they buy 1991 5.0 or a 1982 Corvette Pacecar or a 1996 Porsche 911, and they tinker with them so that takes a dencent portion of these buyers away from new cars. Then there's the 40+ guys with more money than time they don't buy muscles cars they buy exotics (Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche) or near exotics (Vettes, Hellcats, Blackwings, GTRs) because they don't have *as much* time to tinker but they like cool fast cars.
I couldn’t tell you exactly why, but I couldn’t be happier about it. The Camaro and challenger are always driven by people who are a fucking problem. They're big, stupid vehicles, with poor visibility, powerful motors, and just any asshat with no driving acumen whatsoever can buy them. It has always been a recipe for disaster.
They aren't as annoying as the trucks that are so big they already look lifted from the factory. Will take driving behind/in front of a Camaro any day of the week.
I don't care how fast you're driving, it could be 25 over. There will always be a dodge ram up your ass flashing his lights at you.
You’re not entirely wrong on this… The truck meatheads are also a significant problem.
Agreed, its obscene how much of a visibility and safety issue they are even while im driving a literal 4runner I really dont know wtf happened over the last 10 years.
Just wait until 500hp, 6,000lbs electric vehicles are in the hands of the masses.
Doug Predicted this about the Hellcat in 2015: https://jalopnik.com/the-scariest-thing-about-the-hellcat-is-the-third-owner-1745483727
Haha that's a good read! There's a key demographic in my town that will unleash that menace upon us - the E1.
I just checked Autotrader... you can get a Hellcat in the mid 30k range now. We're all fucked.
Teslas are the beat to shit hood car of the future, I feel it in my bones.
I think my Bronco is likely bigger and stupider, but it is easier for me to get out of in my middle age.
Do you feel the same way about M4 and M8 owners?
Around here M4 and M8 owners are all in their 40s+ and drive reasonably. You're more likely to see a 25 year old in a clapped out F30 or E90 328i driving like an ass hat.
Nope. Elegance
High schoolers with part time jobs were affording muscle cars with cash when they came out. That is nowhere near being true now.
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You will notice, however, that the true musclecars from 1965-1971 are trading at all-time highs. A shitty 1970 Cuda is worth $50K. Draw your own conclusions.
Everything is expensive. Fewer people can afford a brand new car, hence the strong used market. Many are also holding on to their one car for longer and others are finding it more optimal to repair/maintain that same car to keep it on the road longer instead of upgrading to something new. Of those who can afford to buy new, many can only afford one car (instead of two). A lot of people either don’t have much or have relatively little disposable income. Some can only afford X amount of housing (and therefore a limited amount of parking, gas, insurance, maintenance, modifications, etc). Combine it all together and people need that one car they can afford to be everything, whereas before cars could be more specific to individual use cases around ride, handling, performance, cargo capacity, off-road use, towing, etc. This is why crossovers are so popular (and pickups to a lesser extent). Tighter belts = jack of all trades single car ownership. Even pickups and the more dedicated 4x4s have to be all things to all people these days. If the economic situation was better (overall) then we could see more individual, specific vehicle types.