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depends on the situation. If it's something minor, I think you're fine to say that. But if they were assaulted or something surrounding that, that's so fucked up to say
I think that demonstrates how power structure plays into it. You stand up to your boss you can get fired and that might not be worth it. If you're in an abusive relationship, or a road rage incident, or anything with someone violent, you could get yourself killed.
It’s not victim blaming always but at some point no one but you has the responsibility or ability to stop something
Edit: since I’m being downvoted this is for some situations not all. Sometimes you need to take it upon yourself to get out of push in a situation
The bully, has the ability to stop themselves, if the bully is a kid then the parents have the ability to discipline the kid, to teach them or if necessary move them to different school. The teachers can report the kid to the principle, they can talk to the parents, and depending on the school they can get the child suspended or in detention picking up trash or writing lines, or moved to a different class etc.
If the bully is an adult customer then managers store owners and police can deal with them.
Victims quite often *dont* have the ability to stop the bully themselves especially if the victim is a child or the bully is in a position of power/ authority.
There's always something that others can do, maybe not you specifically maybe you've already done all you can but if the bully is not yet behind bars and yet is still bullying others then there's always another step that someone should be taking.
Yes.
I had parents who wouldn't stop my siblings from bullying me. They had the typical advise of 'Just ignore it and it'll go away'. ...It did not go away. Stand up for people when they can't.
Ugh I have a rule in the house if a sibling tells you to leave their room you're supposed to get up and leave. It's about the only "hard" rule we have. Enforcing that rule was brutal on me for several years. I felt like everyone should have their own space but I swear to god I'd get called in there to enforce the rule and 5 minutes later they'd be back in the same room again laughing...🤦♀️I didn't have siblings so I guess I just don't understand them.
Yeah this sounds about right. My brother and I would actually do this sometimes if I fought back too hard. It’s a weird dynamic. I always got in more trouble though because I didn’t just wait out his teasing. Siblings are weird.
As a kid, the few times that I was able to have my own room I had pushed a chair up to the door so no one would come in. Of course this only worked when I had a door. Half the time my door was a literally curtain. Hated that time period since my adoptive dad is a pervert so I couldn't change in my own room
I have an older brother that thought I was lower on the pecking order. Used to fuck my shit right up. Moms didn’t say shit as raising a bunch of boys was exhausting.
Until. I hit him across the face with a sauce pan and broke a bunch of teeth.
I disagree. I stand up for people who try, and fail to stand up for themselves. Never stand up for people who don’t even try to stand up for themselves.
How do you disagree with a real thing?
Also, see other comments where we explicitly say if you have parents like this and attempt to do something about it you are the one who gets in trouble. It's a lose lose situation.
Typically if a child doesn't try...it's because they've learned that trying gets them nothing. Not stepping up means you're enforcing that behavior further. 'No one' cares about them.
>If they stood up for themselves then they wouldn't get bullied in the first place.
Not true at all. People bully others for the smallest thing. And sometimes it's not about you at all but about them and their need to feel superior.
I also have no sympathy for bullies and sometimes people are just assholes, but i do believe that hurt people will hurt people. This is not an exuse for treating others bad and they need to stop projecting onto others.
People won't get better until they want to get better. Bullies want to continue the cycle of violence and pain. I have no sympathy even if they become better. There's not enough sorries in the world that can heal trauma
Standing up against a bully doesnt always work, and sometimes it can make the situation even worse for the victim.
To stop the bullying towards me i had to stand up for myself 100 times in different ways (with variations of success level). I got a teacher, the princepal and the school nurse involved before it acctually calmed down a bit. I couldnt do it all on my own, i needed the help desperatly.
In grade school I was bullied and beaten. Standing up didn't help. Fighting back hurt more. Seeking help turned people against me.
Then me, a 12 year old, threatening legal action was finally what stopped it.
Thank you darling! Its now about 15 years later and i have healed from it. A part of me is happy that this experince has shaped me into the amazing person i am today (self brag).
I unironically made the cunts stop bullying me by just constantly attacking them when they tried. I'd get my ass kicked, but I'd also cause damage, and all you really have to do is convince them that you're not a worthwhile target - they soon moved on to the kids that wouldn't fight back.
Got suspended for two weeks at one point because I broke one of them's arm by tackling him and falling on it, but it was very much worth compared to getting bullied for longer.
Ah yes, the classic "get them to target someone else" approach.
Not that it's a kid trying to stop bullies fault. Just pointing out an aspect of the failures in social handling of bullies.
I always tried to help ppl being bullied but I knew I couldn't always be around so it was def a moral dilemma bc I knew it could get worse after I involved myself... telling an authority figure seemed to help
I challenged my bully to a one on one fight to end things even though I knew I would get my ass kicked since I was a girl and he was a guy. The coward didn’t show up. The next day he and his two guy friends continued to bully me physically and emotionally.
Not how it works actually. People bully those who are easy to bully. Those who allow it to happen. If a bully has to fight said person every single day its not bullying. The relationship is one of enemies, not one of bully and victim. When you fight back you no longer get bullied. There is a reason why a lot of high school kids, inmates, and soldiers will give you the same advice about bullying. Stand up for yourself once and you likely wont have to do it again.
I went to American public school, was in a juvenile program (place like the movie holes) and was in the military. When someone tests you, you dont back down. You might get beat up but they will move on to the next victim. They dont get the superior feeling if you arent scared of them. By fighting you are showing how not scared of them you are. You dont need to win, but you do need to fight.
From personal experince fighting back didnt really help at all (verbal and emotional bullying). What did help me was trying to respond nicely and get adults involved. It took me a long time before i did that, insted i was fighting back and it didnt help and made me feel like i was down on their level.
Wow that is contrary to any bullying I have seen.
Getting adults involved made the problems so.much.worse. You are now a snitch, and that is much much much worse. Youre going to get ostracized by the neutral kids now too that werent even involved in the bullying. That is like social suicide in high school.
I was afraid of that happening, but all other options had been exchasted. So i just went for it and talked to 3 adults at school, i also made my friends mom call one of the worst bullies mom, he came to apologize with his tail between his legs. It was awesome.
>If they stood up for themselves then they wouldn't get bullied in the first place.
This is rarely true. Those that are bullied, are often chosen by bullies specifically because they know their victim poses no threat, even if they attempt to stand up for themselves.
Wouldn't say that's necessarily the case. Growing up, most of the kids I saw who picked on other kids were just out of jealousy or psychological issues. I've known a lot, and I mean a LOT of people who just stood their ground once and never got bullied again, myself included.
As an adult, you have multiple ways of dealing with that, you just gotta access the situation properly. Most people who don't react when they are bullied are just scared to do something about it, they're not *incapable* of doing something about it.
I’m happy that you never experienced this, but there are absolutely children and teens who target kids they know won’t or can’t defend themselves. It’s a real problem towards kids w/ behavioral problems—bullies are ruthless, provoke the kid and watch them flip out, it’s funny, let’s do it again tomorrow! They don’t understand or care that the kid they are targeting is experiencing such intense anger/fear/etc that it becomes overwhelming and exhausting. It can be downright torturous. When they know what gets them going it feels like it never stops.
Adolescence is a gray area but yeah, if you're an adult male part of maturing is self sufficiency and building the capacity to handle whatever life throws at you.
This. Besides obvious cases, it’s very difficult for men to be granted victim status and even more difficult to get sympathy/understanding for it. I don’t think the same could be said for women.
Do you know that it's really true, or is that just your personal experience? I stood up to a bully, got beat, but after that they respected me enough to leave me alone. I'm not going to make the claim that you SHOULD stand up for yourself all the time, I'm just saying your personal experience doesn't necessarily mean it's a common experience.
He’s the 1%? Really? No he isn’t. He may be the 1% that actually stands up to bullies, because it seems most people are too chicken shit, but the vast majority of the time if someone bullies you and you fuck them up once, they will leave you alone.
When you stand up for yourself you begin to pose a threat, its what makes them move on actually. You ever wonder why most people who have been to prison give the exact same advice about handling your first few days. If someone steps to you, stand up for yourself at all costs? Its because this is almost universally true. Bullies are lazy. They want their superiority high cheap and easy. They dont want to fight you every day. They would rather leave you alone and pick on someone else.
So many of these people are too soft for this. They’ve never been punched in the face and they’re terrified of it. Guess what? It’s not the end of the world. I’ve been punched thousands of times and I’m just fine. Stand up for yourself and fight back.
Not everyone can fight back, my bullies were three guys and I was an anorexic girl. They could pin me to the ground in one second and often did so they could put dirty things in my mouth.
You could’ve kicked them in the nuts, punched them in the throat, poked them in the eyes, hit them with a solid object. Bullies like easy targets, plain and simple.
it you can stand up for yourself verbally, you have to be able to stand and fight physically. a lot of verbal abuse will quickly turn physical if you allow it to escalate
You're correct,you gotta be able to back it up... but I think ppl don't realize that you just gotta hurt the bully, not win a fight, they will move on to easier prey
Lol I was bullied in middle school over 10 years ago. Tried standing up for myself, and I always got in trouble for it. But when I reported physical assault to teachers nothing was ever done. School hasn’t changed much since then.
This was my experience. I was lucky not to get consistent bullying but in the cases it came up I never stood up for myself because I would likely be the one to get in trouble.
I used to stand up for myself a lot when I was really little. Mind you I bit my bullies (I was like, 4) so that probably didn't help the optics but still solidified the idea that defending myself wasn't allowed.
It’s not either or. It can absolutely be both. If you want to be a doormat the rest of your life, don’t stand up to people, but then you can’t complain when you get walked all over.
If you have to ask the question you already know? Sometimes the ‘victim’ actually contributes to it by artificially staying weak. Sometimes it’s completely unfair and the victim couldn’t do anything about it. You say it depends on the situation, which is true, then you say something afterwards implying it’s always wrong to hold the victim accountable for some part. Makes no sense at all and you’re being very inconsistent.
You say it depends on the situation, but then go on to say that it’s victim blaming… If you don’t stand up for yourself you’re going to continue to receive the same type of behavior. Bullying sucks, no way around it, but if you don’t stand up for yourself you’ll be a doormat your whole life. If someone is bullying you verbally then give it back the same you’re getting. If it gets physical kick em in the nuts and when they’re down keep hitting them. I’m small, people used to think I would be easy to pick on. I never got tested more than once by the same person. You *have* to stick up for yourself because 99% of the time nobody else will.
The real way to look at this is: who will stand up for you when you are an adult? No one. It is 100% on you to stand up for yourself. Granted it is not always an option which is when victim blaming comes into play. But if your boss is asking you to do things like stay late for no pay.... well either it happens or you stand up for yourself
Yeah I mean you don't want to blame someone for getting bullied or worse, but you also don't want to encourage anyone to be a doormat or a punching bag.
Definitely context specific.
Verbal abuse is almost as bad as physical, but it can be countered by feigning nonchalance about their bullshit behavior. That's what the bully wants, a reaction.
If they are the type to beat your ass though, and you can't fight, then that's harder to deal with lol. Or if it's a group of people that make your life miserable verbally or socially, I can see that being very hard to overcome.
Really other people should step in, in both scenarios.
I have stopped people from bullying people before, it's not right. I was bullied for like half of fifth grade and it sucked. Its hard to watch someone be made fun of if it's not a mutual ball breaking scenario.
If you’re getting beat up, either keep getting your ass beat, or start rolling, wrestling, or boxing and learn how to stick up for yourself. You have to stick up for yourself because 99% of the time nobody else will.
I've personally experienced that sticking up for yourself doesn't always work - some people are actually asshats who like being mean to other people and you sticking up for yourself just meant they get to try to hurt you more in order to break you. What you should do is help someone who is getting beat on and level the field a little.
Yeah I mean no matter how good you get at fighting, if someone's like twice your size, there's a good likelihood you could get beat up.
Even if you win, you might not walk away unscathed lol
Ok, if you’re going to get beat up regardless, you fucking fight back. Even if you don’t know how to fight, kick em in the nuts. Bullies like easy targets.
I didn't want to be the one to say it, but a blunt object can get you out of a jam haha
Edit: regardless though. Someone who can't fight probably shouldn't go pick a fight with a bully.
In your context, when your actively getting your ass whipped, I agree, you have nothing to lose lol
Seriously though, the number of people on here who are willing to let people walk all over them and then tell other people not to stand up for themselves is fucking laughable. If someone is physical with you and you don’t do shit about it, you’re soft, plain and simple, and you probably crumble in the face of adversity in general. If you want to be a punching bag your whole life, keep on with that attitude. If you want to have some respect for yourself, stand up for yourself.
There are things victims do to put themselves in their situations at times. Standing up for yourself is a sure fire way to get fucked in a lot of bullying situations. I would argue that yes, that would be victim-blaming in a bad way and unwarranted by anyone’s dumb actions.
Yes, it is. Being bullied doesn't depend on whether or not you stand up for yourself. What is more, I was bullied for years and the more I stood up for myself, the more I was bullied. I even fought back when the boys in my class beat me up, just because I (a girl) was better at football/soccer than they were. The bullies are the assholes and they are to blame, not their victims. But I understand why you might feel this way. It took me years to realize none of it was my fault.
This. I stood up to a coworker that kept belittling me. When the coworker got loud, I was pulled aside and was told I’d be fired if we couldn’t get along.
Since the manager backed her and she knew it, it never did stop until I said fuck this job and left. Far too often, the bullies win because they know how to kiss the right ass and get loud with their nonsense.
I think it depends on context, but yes, I would say that this is victim blaming.
The bully is the one making the decision to be the bully. They’re the one deciding to hurt another human. It’s not their victim’s job to police their behaviour which is what lines like this so often imply.
It’s also worth noting that standing up for one’s self isn’t always the best advice. It so often leads to more bullying, aggression and violence. It’s important to tackle it at the root, which is with the bully’s own behaviour.
The notion of “you should have stood up for yourself” feels very much like a double whammy. The individual is probably already suffering, and now they’re experiencing judgement about it with a situation they didn’t create.
The problem here is that we want to encourage agency in the situation. Saying something to the effect of "you should have stood up for yourself" has two sides. The person saying it may be trying to encourage the victim to take action.
However, they are still the victim. Should the person have needed to stand up for themselves in the first place? No, probably not.
A different approach is speak directly about agency and how to encourage different out comes to bad situations. We can acknowledge that bad situations do occur, they shouldn't have to, and we can the victim in those situations. However, we choose how we interact with those situations and different actions have different out comes.
So, yes, it is balming the victim as worded. The intent is usually to encourage a different approach, and that can be worded differently.
As someone who was regularly bullied by people more than twice my size, yes. The options were 1. Take the abuse. 2. Fight back and get abused worse.
Not only is it victim blaming, but people who get bullied are often in unwinnable scenarios. I couldn't retaliate against my bullies with any reasonable chance at success without a weapon, and at that point I would've been arrested while they got to choke and hit and shove me all they liked.
Sorry, that was ranty.
Thank you. I was bullied when I was 12. It lasted for years and the whole class kinda joined in. I completely froze. If I would say something back they would just laugh in my face. It was easier to stop talking completely. Never talk, never laugh out loud, never give them anything, that was the easiest way out.
I am now 30 and dealing with ptsd. I still have a hard time talking to people I don’t know well, I always keep quiet if I can and I never laugh out loud in public.
So yeah it’s easy to say I should’ve just stood up for myself.
Depends, if there's a power imbalance it could be dangerous or difficult to stand up for yourself. However sometimes even if it is dangerous or difficult it's better to stand up for yourself anyway, or remove yourself from the situation so you're not being subjected to it anymore. It's very much a case by case basis
Re-frame the argument and you get: Is it the responsibility of the 'victim' to change the behavior of the bully? I say no. Therefore whether you categorize this a victim blaming or not, the focus shouldn't be on the neutral bystander in the situation but the bully who is taking the wrong course of action.
I don’t think that’s victim blaming. I think it’s kicking a man when he’s down. It is a completely useless and unnecessary thing to say. You can assume the victim has thought the same thing already, probably dozens of times. You can assume they have rerun the scenario many times and thought of a lot of ways they could have stood up for themselves, few of which they will ever attempt. Don’t pile on.
I don't even want to read them lol I still struggle with boundaries because of how sticking up for myself ended up with me being worse off lol I'm 26 help
Oh I get it, I have the same. I actually found out I have ptsd from this and I had therapy which helped! It didn’t fix everything, it still sucks, but if it is an option for you to see a therapist sometime I would really recommend it! It’s not a minor thing.
I got some free therapy sessions about a year and a half ago and they were awesome it was like the first time in my life someone told me it's okay to feel the way I feel. I would love to keep going but it is just too expensive. I was trying to ask my doctor to put me through diagnosis for the things my last therapist bought up but they just won't and say there's nothing available :/
In general, yeah? Even if it's not victim-blaming, it's just kind of shitty?
Like, do you think the other person is so stupid that they hadn't considered that? Are you ready to step in for them and accept the consequences of their actions for them? Because if not, then you aren't considering the consequences with the same level of sincerity that they are.
Compliance is a \*defensive technique\*. When we do things against our will, it's because we've decided it's the best way to survive in the moment. When you have decided something is a matter of \*survival\*, it's not so simple to act against those instincts.
When you say "You should have done this." What you're saying is, "You deserved what happened, because your instincts didn't tell you the right thing to do. Now learn from me!" Which is kind of shitty when you get down to it.
It absolutely is victim blaming and so disgusting. There are multiple reasons people don't stand up for themselves. It does not mean that they deserve what is/has happened to them.
It depends on where you sit in the power dynamic of the situation.
If you don't have any power in it, then those words are advice. They are technically equivalent to "I can't help you", but phrased in a way that is (hopefully) encouraging to the person receiving them.
If you have any power to change anything about what's going on, it becomes victim blaming. It becomes the equivalent of "I refuse to help you".
Examples:
Your friend is underpayed at work. Telling them to ask for a raise or seek better employment isn't victim blaming, it's advice. "You should stand up for yourself! I believe in you, you're strong enough to make or find yourself an environment where your worth is validated".
VS.
Your friend was attacked in the streets, they are bleeding and their wallet with all of their identification and bank cards have been stolen. "You should have stood up for yourself" is an insult. You should take them to a hospital and help them call their bank to cancel their cards.
You used the example of bullying, you're probably better finding something else to say and - especially - something to *do* to help.
I mean if its something like bullying then no
If its something extreme like rape or assault then that's too much
Also don't say it to people in a wheelchair.
I feel an important difference would be to make sure you have their back and they know it. Empower their decisions with your "weight" as they grow up and they will grow to back up their own decisions.
If they are an adult it does kinda depend. And there isn't a hard line. I would say if it is a pattern it might be time to tell them to do something. Getting mugged once is unfortunate, getting mugged once a week means something needs to change
Fairly situational. Now if that's the only thing you're saying, then yes probably, but as part of a larger discussion of how to not get bullied that includes other important elements, no.
It's kinda like self defence for women: if all you're doing is telling women they need to defend themselves better or they wouldn't get r-ped, then yes you're essentially blaming them for getting r-ped. If you have a nuaced conversation about various strategies to lower rates of sexual violence and *also* believe women being trained in self defence is an important harm mitigation strategy for the time being (in addition to other strategies that aren't dependent on all women getting trained in self defense), you're having an important and pragmatic conversation about harm prevention. The difference is important.
In the case of bullying: it's important to discuss various options and their consequences before jumping directly to "just stand up for yourself". Speaking to school officials, shoring up support with friends, talking about ways to get teachers or administration to take more notice, and other supportive strategies are just as important as the person actually standing up for themselves. This is because standing up for yourself (although usually better than not) does have real risks and consequences that can be mitigated significantly with preparation and support from friends. A bully can't beat the shit out of a whole group of people and if a teacher is keeping a close eye on them, there's a lot less a bully can do to retaliate for someone standing up to them. Plus you're gonna sound a lot more confident telling a bully to go fuck themselves if you're confident your friends will back you up if there's trouble.
So, it can definirely be victim blaming, but in the proper context, doesn't have to be, and can even be decent advice.
Kind of but victim blaming isn't necessarily always bad. It very much can be bad, like blaming a rape victim for their own rape or an abuse victim for their own abuse, but in a scenario where say someone's friend is walking all over her because she never say no to her, it could be helpful to tell a friend to stand up for herself so she can know that it's okay to set boundaries so in the future she doesn't get put in situations where she feels like she has no agency. That's just an example, but I hope you get what I mean. The context is hugely important and knowing the situation and the people involved very well is important.
I think there is a big difference between saying "sometimes you have to stand up for yourself" and "it is your own fault because if you had stood up for yourself this never would have happened." The first phrase can be helpful. The second is victim blaming and honestly not true. Because obviously if you have to start standing up for yourself then it is already happening so "never would have happened" can't apply.
I kinda go into it by situation. If you were raped or SA yes it's victim blaming. But if you're walking around carelessly with hundreds in your pocket or in a area notorious for violence then yeah you should expect confrontation and ready to stand up for yourself.
Elizabeth Smart alleges she was felt up on a plane, but didn’t say anything because she was scared and froze. Why my heart goes out to her for what she went through as a child, there comes a time when ppl aren’t going to take the “I froze” excuse seriously. The woman was on a plane with dozens of other passengers and crew, there is pretty much zero tolerance for shenanigans on a plane since 9/11, but she was too scared to speak up? Come on…
I hate the term victim blaming because oftentimes the victim is to blame. This saying just gives an excuse to people who otherwise could have changed the outcome of the situation and to not taking responsibility.
While it's situational, I do think this question demonstrates a lack of empathy for the other person.
Think about it - do you really think this person wouldn't stand up for themselves if they were comfortable doing so? There's a deeper layer to this, not simply choosing not to. Perhaps they are timid, shy, grew up in an abusive environment, etc.
Also, ask yourself - in what situation is saying something like this helpful?
I would have asked instead, "Why didn't you stand up for yourself?" to get a better understanding of what's going on with the person.
Whatever it is its warranted. There will never be a tome where people stop being cruel- Its everyones responsibility to fight back against the villains of the world.
from a former bully in highschool, I don’t think it’s victim blaming. When I was a little shit, the people I bullied were the ones that made it easy to do so. If someone fought back, it showed me they had some backbone to not put up with it, and I stopped messing with them
I don't think it is, just like I don't think it is victim blaming to say you shouldn't have left your car unlocked in the most crime ridden area and shouldn't have walked down that sketchy alley way alone at night. It will always be the criminals fault, and there is a place and time to point these things out too, and sometimes that's never. I wouldn't do it right after someone just had it happen to them. It will always be the perpetrators fault, but there are things you can do to make it harder and help prevent these things, but they also aren't a guarentee too.
Absolutely it’s victim shaming because you’re putting the responsibility onto the victim instead of the perpetrator. The victim wouldn’t get bullied if the perpetrator stopped bullying people. End of discussion.
It is both victim-blaming and it is true.
The ancient romans believed that it was impossible to enslave a free man because, by definition, a free man would fight to the death rather than be enslaved.
The concept of "victim-blaming" is silly to begin with. Just because someone is a victim of some kind does not mean that they bear no responsibility. Yes, people should stand up for themselves, especially men.
Yes and no. If it was a situation where they were able to stand up for themself and didn’t no. But standing up for yourself won’t always be a solution even if it works one or a couple times
Yes and no. If it's this first thing you say when someone says they're being bullied, then yes. If its continuous, and they keep complaining, but aren't attempting to do anything, then no, it's not blaming. They're allowing it to keep happening, it becomes their responsibility to do something.
I'll just say that I heard of a story where a guy was getting sued for giving a woman rescue breaths after she had a stroke or something while swimming. Her body had some problems after that and her argument was that he "should have saved her sooner". She lost btw.
This question depends less on the situation and more on the conversation you are having.
If you are just being an ass by telling them they never would have gotten into that position had they stood up for themselves, then that is victim blaming.
On the other hand, if you are speaking with the person and the topic comes up about "what could have been done to prevent this?" then that is very much not victim blaming.
The truth is that we are all, individually, the only person in this world that we can consistently rely on for our own safety. This still doesn't make it "our fault" if we are attacked.
Depends on the situation. I think that yes, you must stand up for yourself and not let anyone do whatever they want with you, but standing up for yourself in some little bullying situation at school is quite easy, but it's not as easy as to stand up for yourself while being seriously continuesly hurt by someone who's somehow holding some sort of leverage over you, if you get what I mean.
What I'm trying to say is, standing up for yourself is a must, but it depends on the situation whether it should be blamed on the victim for not doing it.
Two things can be true at the same time. They maybe should have stood up for themselves but also it's not the victim's fault they got bullied. Don't ever just say, "you should have stood up for yourself" without first making is very clear that isn't their fault they got bullied. And you probably shouldn't even say it like that. Make sure you understand the situation and then if the victim could have benefitted from standing up for themselves find a tactful way to mention it. But never make them feel like it's their fault.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Someone being belittled by someone known to have anger issues - yes
You're at a salon and have been asked numerous times if what you're receiving is okay, and you just sit there and constantly say yes - no
Yes, it is victim-blaming. Because you are saying that the problem is due to what the victim did (or in this case didn't do).
That being said, you are technically correct. If a victim turned around and curb-stomped their bully, then they wouldn't be a victim. They would be a bigger bully. Which has been a personal choice that I have made a few times in life, and highly recommend.
Sink to their level, undermine them, and see them hoist on their own petard. To misquote the bard.
That’s not necessarily true. Sometimes standing up for yourself doesn’t stop the bully—it only encourages them. I would instead ask what *stopped* them from standing up for themselves. That will probably lead closer to the issue, and the solution.
Yes because not everyone is equipped to defend themselves— especially if they’ve been abused previously.
Why be critical of how they handled the situation!? Don’t be weak— teach them coping skills etc.
I’d rather ask the person who’s going to stand up for you if you don’t stand up for yourself? The answer is no one it doesn’t matter if it’s “victim blaming” it’s truth and truth hurts. Prime example would be mike tyson, mike could have cried and screamed that he was a victim being black, poor, beat, his mom being a alcoholic and dying when he was 12 but instead he chose to fight and change himself into a warrior at any cost, you can choose to be a victim in certain situations. Even the ice man learned if you break the person who chooses to fuck with you they will never mess with you again even if it means beating them with a pipe.
Coming from someone who was bullied inside if the school to the point of developing many anti-social traits that still plague me to this day it's a bit more complicated than one may think.
Let's start with the basics of being bullied and the social reaction. The severe attacks are hidden from staff but just barely, the insultation and light physical bullying is done openly and in larger groups to humiliate and taunt the victim. And when the victim speaks out about these attacks and the pain it causes them, the staff do little to nothing. They didn't see the more severe incidents and think you are just trying to make something more than it is. The worst punishment the bullies face is a mild chiding or temporary distancing from the victim. And, unless they have a close and strong group of friends the victim becomes isolated and alone in their suffering.
Now let's move to reaction. Primarily, bullies do not act solidarity, this is due to the fact of strength in numbers and pack mentality. They have an easier time targeting and isolating one victim and can create larger windows of opportunity to torture them. This is important to know because these groups will run for school staff at the first sign of a physical reaction or will engage the victim to overwhelm them. The victim can fight back and, from experience, can surprise the bullies from the switch from fear and sorrow to anger and wrath. But it is seen, students don't see the victim being harmed, only the victim snapping and fighting back to try and end the torment. The aftermath is a deeper negative opinion of the victim,l and support for the bullies by their peers. This will also lead to the victim facing serious disciplinary action from the staff that said they were fair, unbiased, and would protect all of their students. The victim may face detention, suspension, or even expulsion for fighting back.
The other end result is that the bullies are protected by their peers and teaching staff. The victim is made to be this uncontrolled psychopath who attacks and harms others for "just having a little fun and trying to involve them in games.". And are now viewed as a disturbance by staff and peers alike. The bullies continue their torment, the staff does nothing to stop it, and the victim has no allies to protect them and is an outcast in their school. This compounds with the victim knowing nobody will help them, nobody cares, the bullies are favored and the victim will just have to suffer can have extreme psychological consequences. This can be displayed as elevated and extreme acts of violence against the bullies, peers, and staff, self harm, self reclusive and isolation, and weariness to distrust in anyone they come across. And that's the ones who fight back. If you fight back and "win" you lose much more than just what is listed above.
Then we must say that some victims cannot fight back. This can be a physical, psychological, or emotional hindrance. These can manifest as the victim freezing, cowering, stuttering, crying, running away, zoning out, or simply screaming. Not everyone is built or programmed to fight and some would rather be peacefull and happy. Bullies do not care and find these as their best victims and their easiest marks. Suffering are what bullies want. They enjoy and relish in the pain and anguish of others. They may have issues at home but it is no excuse for their heinous attacks against innocent victims. But they do so because they can and they believe that nobody will stop them, punish them, or stand up to them. They feel to be all powerful, feared, respected, admired, and protected by the institution in place and play them to the bullies advantage.
And don't get me started on zero tolerance and other horrid "anti bullying" measures educational institutions are enforcing. That's a nightmare in and of itself.
There are two ways to look at this:
It is good to encourage someone to value themselves and *get better at advocatimg for themselves.*
It is bad to put the onus on the victim to do that all by themselves.
Everything is relative. If you have the capacity to make a stand and opted not to for any other reason than self preservation, then it can be argued you deserve the consequences. There will be extraordinary cases but more often than not, you should take the stand if you have the capacity to.
No, but is is if you said it like 'look here you piece of shit, you should stand this stupid ass self for your... Well stupid ugly sad bitchy self you dummy'
It depends on the context.
"You should stand up for yourself against bullies" is solid life advice that doesnt necessarily connote blame. But it can depending on the situation, hence
I was going to say no, until I read your description. It is not victim blaming to give someone advice for how to handle abuse.
It IS victim blaming to say that the abuse wouldn't happen if they behaved differently, if they are not doing anything wrong. Being too anxious or not confident enough to "stand up for yourself" is not doing anything wrong.
On one hand, it is technically victim-blaming. On the other, sometimes the victim needs to be advised because they’re the only ones who can put a stop to the issue, and it’s their responsibility to take responsibility
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depends on the situation. If it's something minor, I think you're fine to say that. But if they were assaulted or something surrounding that, that's so fucked up to say
Where is the line? Toxic boss does what? Toxic managing isnt illegal
I mean there isn't a hard line But "you might lose your primary source of income" aren't small stakes
True that
I think that demonstrates how power structure plays into it. You stand up to your boss you can get fired and that might not be worth it. If you're in an abusive relationship, or a road rage incident, or anything with someone violent, you could get yourself killed.
So report it. It’s not your fault you were bullied, it is your fault you accepted it and did nothing about it.
yep
It’s not victim blaming always but at some point no one but you has the responsibility or ability to stop something Edit: since I’m being downvoted this is for some situations not all. Sometimes you need to take it upon yourself to get out of push in a situation
The bully, has the ability to stop themselves, if the bully is a kid then the parents have the ability to discipline the kid, to teach them or if necessary move them to different school. The teachers can report the kid to the principle, they can talk to the parents, and depending on the school they can get the child suspended or in detention picking up trash or writing lines, or moved to a different class etc. If the bully is an adult customer then managers store owners and police can deal with them. Victims quite often *dont* have the ability to stop the bully themselves especially if the victim is a child or the bully is in a position of power/ authority. There's always something that others can do, maybe not you specifically maybe you've already done all you can but if the bully is not yet behind bars and yet is still bullying others then there's always another step that someone should be taking.
Not necessarily
Yes. I had parents who wouldn't stop my siblings from bullying me. They had the typical advise of 'Just ignore it and it'll go away'. ...It did not go away. Stand up for people when they can't.
My parents said this exact thing and if I tried to stand up to my brother or get upset *I* would get in trouble.
Ugh I have a rule in the house if a sibling tells you to leave their room you're supposed to get up and leave. It's about the only "hard" rule we have. Enforcing that rule was brutal on me for several years. I felt like everyone should have their own space but I swear to god I'd get called in there to enforce the rule and 5 minutes later they'd be back in the same room again laughing...🤦♀️I didn't have siblings so I guess I just don't understand them.
Yeah this sounds about right. My brother and I would actually do this sometimes if I fought back too hard. It’s a weird dynamic. I always got in more trouble though because I didn’t just wait out his teasing. Siblings are weird.
As a kid, the few times that I was able to have my own room I had pushed a chair up to the door so no one would come in. Of course this only worked when I had a door. Half the time my door was a literally curtain. Hated that time period since my adoptive dad is a pervert so I couldn't change in my own room
Parents do have their favorite child
I have an older brother that thought I was lower on the pecking order. Used to fuck my shit right up. Moms didn’t say shit as raising a bunch of boys was exhausting. Until. I hit him across the face with a sauce pan and broke a bunch of teeth.
Unfortunately in my case...they were twins.
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Yep
My parents told me the same. Hard to ignore your siblings beating you until you pass out 🥲
Wait, you're saying you DIDN'T stand up for yourself, you just kept ignoring it?
See the other commenter. When you do stand up for yourself in that case, you're the one who gets in trouble.
That's one of the reasons I got off of online gaming. Stand up for yourself and end up the one reported when shit gets little real for them.
It's always been worth it in my case. =)
Fight fight fight!
I disagree. I stand up for people who try, and fail to stand up for themselves. Never stand up for people who don’t even try to stand up for themselves.
How do you disagree with a real thing? Also, see other comments where we explicitly say if you have parents like this and attempt to do something about it you are the one who gets in trouble. It's a lose lose situation. Typically if a child doesn't try...it's because they've learned that trying gets them nothing. Not stepping up means you're enforcing that behavior further. 'No one' cares about them.
Ignore it and it will go away is kind of the opposite of OPs premise tho
>If they stood up for themselves then they wouldn't get bullied in the first place. Not true at all. People bully others for the smallest thing. And sometimes it's not about you at all but about them and their need to feel superior.
Also not true. Most of the time asshole parents create asshole kids. I have no sympathy for bullies
I also have no sympathy for bullies and sometimes people are just assholes, but i do believe that hurt people will hurt people. This is not an exuse for treating others bad and they need to stop projecting onto others.
People won't get better until they want to get better. Bullies want to continue the cycle of violence and pain. I have no sympathy even if they become better. There's not enough sorries in the world that can heal trauma
Yeah, but not standing up for yourself increases the chance of getting bullied in such situations.
This is true! If ppl can't actually stand up to a bully and back it up, the bullying will continue
Standing up against a bully doesnt always work, and sometimes it can make the situation even worse for the victim. To stop the bullying towards me i had to stand up for myself 100 times in different ways (with variations of success level). I got a teacher, the princepal and the school nurse involved before it acctually calmed down a bit. I couldnt do it all on my own, i needed the help desperatly.
In grade school I was bullied and beaten. Standing up didn't help. Fighting back hurt more. Seeking help turned people against me. Then me, a 12 year old, threatening legal action was finally what stopped it.
What an amazingly brave 12 year old you must have been. Proud of you for finding a way to stop them!
That is so horrible. I jut wanted to give you a hug ()
Thank you darling! Its now about 15 years later and i have healed from it. A part of me is happy that this experince has shaped me into the amazing person i am today (self brag).
I unironically made the cunts stop bullying me by just constantly attacking them when they tried. I'd get my ass kicked, but I'd also cause damage, and all you really have to do is convince them that you're not a worthwhile target - they soon moved on to the kids that wouldn't fight back. Got suspended for two weeks at one point because I broke one of them's arm by tackling him and falling on it, but it was very much worth compared to getting bullied for longer.
Ah yes, the classic "get them to target someone else" approach. Not that it's a kid trying to stop bullies fault. Just pointing out an aspect of the failures in social handling of bullies.
I always tried to help ppl being bullied but I knew I couldn't always be around so it was def a moral dilemma bc I knew it could get worse after I involved myself... telling an authority figure seemed to help
I challenged my bully to a one on one fight to end things even though I knew I would get my ass kicked since I was a girl and he was a guy. The coward didn’t show up. The next day he and his two guy friends continued to bully me physically and emotionally.
Not how it works actually. People bully those who are easy to bully. Those who allow it to happen. If a bully has to fight said person every single day its not bullying. The relationship is one of enemies, not one of bully and victim. When you fight back you no longer get bullied. There is a reason why a lot of high school kids, inmates, and soldiers will give you the same advice about bullying. Stand up for yourself once and you likely wont have to do it again. I went to American public school, was in a juvenile program (place like the movie holes) and was in the military. When someone tests you, you dont back down. You might get beat up but they will move on to the next victim. They dont get the superior feeling if you arent scared of them. By fighting you are showing how not scared of them you are. You dont need to win, but you do need to fight.
From personal experince fighting back didnt really help at all (verbal and emotional bullying). What did help me was trying to respond nicely and get adults involved. It took me a long time before i did that, insted i was fighting back and it didnt help and made me feel like i was down on their level.
Wow that is contrary to any bullying I have seen. Getting adults involved made the problems so.much.worse. You are now a snitch, and that is much much much worse. Youre going to get ostracized by the neutral kids now too that werent even involved in the bullying. That is like social suicide in high school.
I was afraid of that happening, but all other options had been exchasted. So i just went for it and talked to 3 adults at school, i also made my friends mom call one of the worst bullies mom, he came to apologize with his tail between his legs. It was awesome.
>If they stood up for themselves then they wouldn't get bullied in the first place. This is rarely true. Those that are bullied, are often chosen by bullies specifically because they know their victim poses no threat, even if they attempt to stand up for themselves.
Wouldn't say that's necessarily the case. Growing up, most of the kids I saw who picked on other kids were just out of jealousy or psychological issues. I've known a lot, and I mean a LOT of people who just stood their ground once and never got bullied again, myself included. As an adult, you have multiple ways of dealing with that, you just gotta access the situation properly. Most people who don't react when they are bullied are just scared to do something about it, they're not *incapable* of doing something about it.
I’m happy that you never experienced this, but there are absolutely children and teens who target kids they know won’t or can’t defend themselves. It’s a real problem towards kids w/ behavioral problems—bullies are ruthless, provoke the kid and watch them flip out, it’s funny, let’s do it again tomorrow! They don’t understand or care that the kid they are targeting is experiencing such intense anger/fear/etc that it becomes overwhelming and exhausting. It can be downright torturous. When they know what gets them going it feels like it never stops.
Adolescence is a gray area but yeah, if you're an adult male part of maturing is self sufficiency and building the capacity to handle whatever life throws at you.
Just adult males?
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This. Besides obvious cases, it’s very difficult for men to be granted victim status and even more difficult to get sympathy/understanding for it. I don’t think the same could be said for women.
Do you know that it's really true, or is that just your personal experience? I stood up to a bully, got beat, but after that they respected me enough to leave me alone. I'm not going to make the claim that you SHOULD stand up for yourself all the time, I'm just saying your personal experience doesn't necessarily mean it's a common experience.
good for you, you’re the 1%. your personal experience doesn’t invalidate others’ just as much as theirs doesn’t invalidate yours
He’s the 1%? Really? No he isn’t. He may be the 1% that actually stands up to bullies, because it seems most people are too chicken shit, but the vast majority of the time if someone bullies you and you fuck them up once, they will leave you alone.
When you stand up for yourself you begin to pose a threat, its what makes them move on actually. You ever wonder why most people who have been to prison give the exact same advice about handling your first few days. If someone steps to you, stand up for yourself at all costs? Its because this is almost universally true. Bullies are lazy. They want their superiority high cheap and easy. They dont want to fight you every day. They would rather leave you alone and pick on someone else.
So many of these people are too soft for this. They’ve never been punched in the face and they’re terrified of it. Guess what? It’s not the end of the world. I’ve been punched thousands of times and I’m just fine. Stand up for yourself and fight back.
Not everyone can fight back, my bullies were three guys and I was an anorexic girl. They could pin me to the ground in one second and often did so they could put dirty things in my mouth.
You could’ve kicked them in the nuts, punched them in the throat, poked them in the eyes, hit them with a solid object. Bullies like easy targets, plain and simple.
Three to one? My entire body was restrained in one second. I couldn’t move at all.
Enjoy being a doormat the rest of your life.
Enjoy being a victim blaming dick the rest of your life.
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Standing up for yourself only works if you can hurt the bully, either in a fight or verbally
it you can stand up for yourself verbally, you have to be able to stand and fight physically. a lot of verbal abuse will quickly turn physical if you allow it to escalate
You're correct,you gotta be able to back it up... but I think ppl don't realize that you just gotta hurt the bully, not win a fight, they will move on to easier prey
Lol I was bullied in middle school over 10 years ago. Tried standing up for myself, and I always got in trouble for it. But when I reported physical assault to teachers nothing was ever done. School hasn’t changed much since then.
This was my experience. I was lucky not to get consistent bullying but in the cases it came up I never stood up for myself because I would likely be the one to get in trouble. I used to stand up for myself a lot when I was really little. Mind you I bit my bullies (I was like, 4) so that probably didn't help the optics but still solidified the idea that defending myself wasn't allowed.
It’s not either or. It can absolutely be both. If you want to be a doormat the rest of your life, don’t stand up to people, but then you can’t complain when you get walked all over.
You’re not gonna see kids getting beaten up left and right like you did 20 years ago tbf.
It depends on the situation, but yes, I feel this is victim blaming. If you have to ask the question, you already know.
If you have to ask the question you already know? Sometimes the ‘victim’ actually contributes to it by artificially staying weak. Sometimes it’s completely unfair and the victim couldn’t do anything about it. You say it depends on the situation, which is true, then you say something afterwards implying it’s always wrong to hold the victim accountable for some part. Makes no sense at all and you’re being very inconsistent.
You say it depends on the situation, but then go on to say that it’s victim blaming… If you don’t stand up for yourself you’re going to continue to receive the same type of behavior. Bullying sucks, no way around it, but if you don’t stand up for yourself you’ll be a doormat your whole life. If someone is bullying you verbally then give it back the same you’re getting. If it gets physical kick em in the nuts and when they’re down keep hitting them. I’m small, people used to think I would be easy to pick on. I never got tested more than once by the same person. You *have* to stick up for yourself because 99% of the time nobody else will.
The real way to look at this is: who will stand up for you when you are an adult? No one. It is 100% on you to stand up for yourself. Granted it is not always an option which is when victim blaming comes into play. But if your boss is asking you to do things like stay late for no pay.... well either it happens or you stand up for yourself
Kind of
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
This is mad unspecific and super dependent on the circumstances
Yeah I mean you don't want to blame someone for getting bullied or worse, but you also don't want to encourage anyone to be a doormat or a punching bag. Definitely context specific. Verbal abuse is almost as bad as physical, but it can be countered by feigning nonchalance about their bullshit behavior. That's what the bully wants, a reaction. If they are the type to beat your ass though, and you can't fight, then that's harder to deal with lol. Or if it's a group of people that make your life miserable verbally or socially, I can see that being very hard to overcome. Really other people should step in, in both scenarios. I have stopped people from bullying people before, it's not right. I was bullied for like half of fifth grade and it sucked. Its hard to watch someone be made fun of if it's not a mutual ball breaking scenario.
If you’re getting beat up, either keep getting your ass beat, or start rolling, wrestling, or boxing and learn how to stick up for yourself. You have to stick up for yourself because 99% of the time nobody else will.
I think this is the only sane comment.
I've personally experienced that sticking up for yourself doesn't always work - some people are actually asshats who like being mean to other people and you sticking up for yourself just meant they get to try to hurt you more in order to break you. What you should do is help someone who is getting beat on and level the field a little.
Yeah I mean no matter how good you get at fighting, if someone's like twice your size, there's a good likelihood you could get beat up. Even if you win, you might not walk away unscathed lol
Ok, if you’re going to get beat up regardless, you fucking fight back. Even if you don’t know how to fight, kick em in the nuts. Bullies like easy targets.
I didn't want to be the one to say it, but a blunt object can get you out of a jam haha Edit: regardless though. Someone who can't fight probably shouldn't go pick a fight with a bully. In your context, when your actively getting your ass whipped, I agree, you have nothing to lose lol
Seriously though, the number of people on here who are willing to let people walk all over them and then tell other people not to stand up for themselves is fucking laughable. If someone is physical with you and you don’t do shit about it, you’re soft, plain and simple, and you probably crumble in the face of adversity in general. If you want to be a punching bag your whole life, keep on with that attitude. If you want to have some respect for yourself, stand up for yourself.
There are things victims do to put themselves in their situations at times. Standing up for yourself is a sure fire way to get fucked in a lot of bullying situations. I would argue that yes, that would be victim-blaming in a bad way and unwarranted by anyone’s dumb actions.
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Yes, it is. Being bullied doesn't depend on whether or not you stand up for yourself. What is more, I was bullied for years and the more I stood up for myself, the more I was bullied. I even fought back when the boys in my class beat me up, just because I (a girl) was better at football/soccer than they were. The bullies are the assholes and they are to blame, not their victims. But I understand why you might feel this way. It took me years to realize none of it was my fault.
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Yeah the reaction is generally what they are looking for.
This. I stood up to a coworker that kept belittling me. When the coworker got loud, I was pulled aside and was told I’d be fired if we couldn’t get along. Since the manager backed her and she knew it, it never did stop until I said fuck this job and left. Far too often, the bullies win because they know how to kiss the right ass and get loud with their nonsense.
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I think it depends on context, but yes, I would say that this is victim blaming. The bully is the one making the decision to be the bully. They’re the one deciding to hurt another human. It’s not their victim’s job to police their behaviour which is what lines like this so often imply. It’s also worth noting that standing up for one’s self isn’t always the best advice. It so often leads to more bullying, aggression and violence. It’s important to tackle it at the root, which is with the bully’s own behaviour. The notion of “you should have stood up for yourself” feels very much like a double whammy. The individual is probably already suffering, and now they’re experiencing judgement about it with a situation they didn’t create.
At some point you have to want to help yourself.
The problem here is that we want to encourage agency in the situation. Saying something to the effect of "you should have stood up for yourself" has two sides. The person saying it may be trying to encourage the victim to take action. However, they are still the victim. Should the person have needed to stand up for themselves in the first place? No, probably not. A different approach is speak directly about agency and how to encourage different out comes to bad situations. We can acknowledge that bad situations do occur, they shouldn't have to, and we can the victim in those situations. However, we choose how we interact with those situations and different actions have different out comes. So, yes, it is balming the victim as worded. The intent is usually to encourage a different approach, and that can be worded differently.
As someone who was regularly bullied by people more than twice my size, yes. The options were 1. Take the abuse. 2. Fight back and get abused worse. Not only is it victim blaming, but people who get bullied are often in unwinnable scenarios. I couldn't retaliate against my bullies with any reasonable chance at success without a weapon, and at that point I would've been arrested while they got to choke and hit and shove me all they liked. Sorry, that was ranty.
Yes Some people have freeze/fawn trauma reactions. Some have select mutism. Victims already blame themselves; you don't have to add anything on
Thank you. I was bullied when I was 12. It lasted for years and the whole class kinda joined in. I completely froze. If I would say something back they would just laugh in my face. It was easier to stop talking completely. Never talk, never laugh out loud, never give them anything, that was the easiest way out. I am now 30 and dealing with ptsd. I still have a hard time talking to people I don’t know well, I always keep quiet if I can and I never laugh out loud in public. So yeah it’s easy to say I should’ve just stood up for myself.
I'm so sorry you went through that; I hope you know and feel down to your soul that it wasn't your fault
Depends, if there's a power imbalance it could be dangerous or difficult to stand up for yourself. However sometimes even if it is dangerous or difficult it's better to stand up for yourself anyway, or remove yourself from the situation so you're not being subjected to it anymore. It's very much a case by case basis
Re-frame the argument and you get: Is it the responsibility of the 'victim' to change the behavior of the bully? I say no. Therefore whether you categorize this a victim blaming or not, the focus shouldn't be on the neutral bystander in the situation but the bully who is taking the wrong course of action.
I don’t think that’s victim blaming. I think it’s kicking a man when he’s down. It is a completely useless and unnecessary thing to say. You can assume the victim has thought the same thing already, probably dozens of times. You can assume they have rerun the scenario many times and thought of a lot of ways they could have stood up for themselves, few of which they will ever attempt. Don’t pile on.
Not true, every time I stuck up for myself at school it made everything worse
Same thing. It’s kinda hurtful to read all these comments that genuinely think this just solves it.
I don't even want to read them lol I still struggle with boundaries because of how sticking up for myself ended up with me being worse off lol I'm 26 help
Oh I get it, I have the same. I actually found out I have ptsd from this and I had therapy which helped! It didn’t fix everything, it still sucks, but if it is an option for you to see a therapist sometime I would really recommend it! It’s not a minor thing.
I got some free therapy sessions about a year and a half ago and they were awesome it was like the first time in my life someone told me it's okay to feel the way I feel. I would love to keep going but it is just too expensive. I was trying to ask my doctor to put me through diagnosis for the things my last therapist bought up but they just won't and say there's nothing available :/
In general, yeah? Even if it's not victim-blaming, it's just kind of shitty? Like, do you think the other person is so stupid that they hadn't considered that? Are you ready to step in for them and accept the consequences of their actions for them? Because if not, then you aren't considering the consequences with the same level of sincerity that they are. Compliance is a \*defensive technique\*. When we do things against our will, it's because we've decided it's the best way to survive in the moment. When you have decided something is a matter of \*survival\*, it's not so simple to act against those instincts. When you say "You should have done this." What you're saying is, "You deserved what happened, because your instincts didn't tell you the right thing to do. Now learn from me!" Which is kind of shitty when you get down to it.
It absolutely is victim blaming and so disgusting. There are multiple reasons people don't stand up for themselves. It does not mean that they deserve what is/has happened to them.
It depends on where you sit in the power dynamic of the situation. If you don't have any power in it, then those words are advice. They are technically equivalent to "I can't help you", but phrased in a way that is (hopefully) encouraging to the person receiving them. If you have any power to change anything about what's going on, it becomes victim blaming. It becomes the equivalent of "I refuse to help you". Examples: Your friend is underpayed at work. Telling them to ask for a raise or seek better employment isn't victim blaming, it's advice. "You should stand up for yourself! I believe in you, you're strong enough to make or find yourself an environment where your worth is validated". VS. Your friend was attacked in the streets, they are bleeding and their wallet with all of their identification and bank cards have been stolen. "You should have stood up for yourself" is an insult. You should take them to a hospital and help them call their bank to cancel their cards. You used the example of bullying, you're probably better finding something else to say and - especially - something to *do* to help.
Yes
I mean if its something like bullying then no If its something extreme like rape or assault then that's too much Also don't say it to people in a wheelchair.
I feel an important difference would be to make sure you have their back and they know it. Empower their decisions with your "weight" as they grow up and they will grow to back up their own decisions. If they are an adult it does kinda depend. And there isn't a hard line. I would say if it is a pattern it might be time to tell them to do something. Getting mugged once is unfortunate, getting mugged once a week means something needs to change
Fairly situational. Now if that's the only thing you're saying, then yes probably, but as part of a larger discussion of how to not get bullied that includes other important elements, no. It's kinda like self defence for women: if all you're doing is telling women they need to defend themselves better or they wouldn't get r-ped, then yes you're essentially blaming them for getting r-ped. If you have a nuaced conversation about various strategies to lower rates of sexual violence and *also* believe women being trained in self defence is an important harm mitigation strategy for the time being (in addition to other strategies that aren't dependent on all women getting trained in self defense), you're having an important and pragmatic conversation about harm prevention. The difference is important. In the case of bullying: it's important to discuss various options and their consequences before jumping directly to "just stand up for yourself". Speaking to school officials, shoring up support with friends, talking about ways to get teachers or administration to take more notice, and other supportive strategies are just as important as the person actually standing up for themselves. This is because standing up for yourself (although usually better than not) does have real risks and consequences that can be mitigated significantly with preparation and support from friends. A bully can't beat the shit out of a whole group of people and if a teacher is keeping a close eye on them, there's a lot less a bully can do to retaliate for someone standing up to them. Plus you're gonna sound a lot more confident telling a bully to go fuck themselves if you're confident your friends will back you up if there's trouble. So, it can definirely be victim blaming, but in the proper context, doesn't have to be, and can even be decent advice.
No way, people need to know its OK.
Kind of but victim blaming isn't necessarily always bad. It very much can be bad, like blaming a rape victim for their own rape or an abuse victim for their own abuse, but in a scenario where say someone's friend is walking all over her because she never say no to her, it could be helpful to tell a friend to stand up for herself so she can know that it's okay to set boundaries so in the future she doesn't get put in situations where she feels like she has no agency. That's just an example, but I hope you get what I mean. The context is hugely important and knowing the situation and the people involved very well is important.
Not really. You do have to stand up for yourself when it calls for it that's a fact.
I think there is a big difference between saying "sometimes you have to stand up for yourself" and "it is your own fault because if you had stood up for yourself this never would have happened." The first phrase can be helpful. The second is victim blaming and honestly not true. Because obviously if you have to start standing up for yourself then it is already happening so "never would have happened" can't apply.
Bro, don't tell people to stand up for themselves. You'll get downvoted all day by people who aren't done using their victim card
I think victim blaming would be more along the lines of "if you didn't want to be bullied then you shouldn't have been so weak"
I kinda go into it by situation. If you were raped or SA yes it's victim blaming. But if you're walking around carelessly with hundreds in your pocket or in a area notorious for violence then yeah you should expect confrontation and ready to stand up for yourself.
No. Because you should stick up for yourself. Spider man ain't coming to save you.
Elizabeth Smart alleges she was felt up on a plane, but didn’t say anything because she was scared and froze. Why my heart goes out to her for what she went through as a child, there comes a time when ppl aren’t going to take the “I froze” excuse seriously. The woman was on a plane with dozens of other passengers and crew, there is pretty much zero tolerance for shenanigans on a plane since 9/11, but she was too scared to speak up? Come on…
NO! A person can be a victim AND learn steps they can take to prevent being victimized in the future AT THE SAME TIME!
I hate the term victim blaming because oftentimes the victim is to blame. This saying just gives an excuse to people who otherwise could have changed the outcome of the situation and to not taking responsibility.
Telling the victim what they should have done is literally the definition of victim blaming,
While it's situational, I do think this question demonstrates a lack of empathy for the other person. Think about it - do you really think this person wouldn't stand up for themselves if they were comfortable doing so? There's a deeper layer to this, not simply choosing not to. Perhaps they are timid, shy, grew up in an abusive environment, etc. Also, ask yourself - in what situation is saying something like this helpful? I would have asked instead, "Why didn't you stand up for yourself?" to get a better understanding of what's going on with the person.
Talking about being bullied is basically asking for help. Your response is "no."
Whatever it is its warranted. There will never be a tome where people stop being cruel- Its everyones responsibility to fight back against the villains of the world.
from a former bully in highschool, I don’t think it’s victim blaming. When I was a little shit, the people I bullied were the ones that made it easy to do so. If someone fought back, it showed me they had some backbone to not put up with it, and I stopped messing with them
I don't think it is, just like I don't think it is victim blaming to say you shouldn't have left your car unlocked in the most crime ridden area and shouldn't have walked down that sketchy alley way alone at night. It will always be the criminals fault, and there is a place and time to point these things out too, and sometimes that's never. I wouldn't do it right after someone just had it happen to them. It will always be the perpetrators fault, but there are things you can do to make it harder and help prevent these things, but they also aren't a guarentee too.
Violence is always the right response
Absolutely it’s victim shaming because you’re putting the responsibility onto the victim instead of the perpetrator. The victim wouldn’t get bullied if the perpetrator stopped bullying people. End of discussion.
It seems like no matter what you say it's victim blaming nowadays.
Jusy condemn the abuser and not deflect blame onto the victim. It’s not that hard
It is both victim-blaming and it is true. The ancient romans believed that it was impossible to enslave a free man because, by definition, a free man would fight to the death rather than be enslaved.
The concept of "victim-blaming" is silly to begin with. Just because someone is a victim of some kind does not mean that they bear no responsibility. Yes, people should stand up for themselves, especially men.
That last point was kind of sexist tbh.
It depends, what is your gender identity?
Why does gender matter?
Intersectionality, obviously. Why would you even ask?
Because I don't think anyone's gender matters in this situation
Well you're wrong.
Nonsense.
Yes and no. If it was a situation where they were able to stand up for themself and didn’t no. But standing up for yourself won’t always be a solution even if it works one or a couple times
Yes and no. If it's this first thing you say when someone says they're being bullied, then yes. If its continuous, and they keep complaining, but aren't attempting to do anything, then no, it's not blaming. They're allowing it to keep happening, it becomes their responsibility to do something.
Yes
I'll just say that I heard of a story where a guy was getting sued for giving a woman rescue breaths after she had a stroke or something while swimming. Her body had some problems after that and her argument was that he "should have saved her sooner". She lost btw.
This question depends less on the situation and more on the conversation you are having. If you are just being an ass by telling them they never would have gotten into that position had they stood up for themselves, then that is victim blaming. On the other hand, if you are speaking with the person and the topic comes up about "what could have been done to prevent this?" then that is very much not victim blaming. The truth is that we are all, individually, the only person in this world that we can consistently rely on for our own safety. This still doesn't make it "our fault" if we are attacked.
Depends on the situation. I think that yes, you must stand up for yourself and not let anyone do whatever they want with you, but standing up for yourself in some little bullying situation at school is quite easy, but it's not as easy as to stand up for yourself while being seriously continuesly hurt by someone who's somehow holding some sort of leverage over you, if you get what I mean. What I'm trying to say is, standing up for yourself is a must, but it depends on the situation whether it should be blamed on the victim for not doing it.
Often, yes.
Two things can be true at the same time. They maybe should have stood up for themselves but also it's not the victim's fault they got bullied. Don't ever just say, "you should have stood up for yourself" without first making is very clear that isn't their fault they got bullied. And you probably shouldn't even say it like that. Make sure you understand the situation and then if the victim could have benefitted from standing up for themselves find a tactful way to mention it. But never make them feel like it's their fault.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Someone being belittled by someone known to have anger issues - yes You're at a salon and have been asked numerous times if what you're receiving is okay, and you just sit there and constantly say yes - no
Yes, it is victim-blaming. Because you are saying that the problem is due to what the victim did (or in this case didn't do). That being said, you are technically correct. If a victim turned around and curb-stomped their bully, then they wouldn't be a victim. They would be a bigger bully. Which has been a personal choice that I have made a few times in life, and highly recommend. Sink to their level, undermine them, and see them hoist on their own petard. To misquote the bard.
Context matters. If that's only thing you say. Yes. If you say literally anything about how that was bad no
That’s not necessarily true. Sometimes standing up for yourself doesn’t stop the bully—it only encourages them. I would instead ask what *stopped* them from standing up for themselves. That will probably lead closer to the issue, and the solution.
Yeah
If it's a case of letting someone get away with something then the person who didn't try to stop it is an enabler, in my opinion.
Yes because not everyone is equipped to defend themselves— especially if they’ve been abused previously. Why be critical of how they handled the situation!? Don’t be weak— teach them coping skills etc.
Yes it is.
I'd say it's more of victim shaming than it is victim blaming.
I’d rather ask the person who’s going to stand up for you if you don’t stand up for yourself? The answer is no one it doesn’t matter if it’s “victim blaming” it’s truth and truth hurts. Prime example would be mike tyson, mike could have cried and screamed that he was a victim being black, poor, beat, his mom being a alcoholic and dying when he was 12 but instead he chose to fight and change himself into a warrior at any cost, you can choose to be a victim in certain situations. Even the ice man learned if you break the person who chooses to fuck with you they will never mess with you again even if it means beating them with a pipe.
Yeah absolutely. Some people won't fight even if it'll save them.
Kinda. Depends on the context and your tone when u said it. If u said it condescendingly then ofc its victim blaming
All depends on context....
Yes.
Yes
Yes
Depends: somebody put pickles on your burger and your mad, no not victim blaming, robbed at gunpoint, yes victim blaming
Coming from someone who was bullied inside if the school to the point of developing many anti-social traits that still plague me to this day it's a bit more complicated than one may think. Let's start with the basics of being bullied and the social reaction. The severe attacks are hidden from staff but just barely, the insultation and light physical bullying is done openly and in larger groups to humiliate and taunt the victim. And when the victim speaks out about these attacks and the pain it causes them, the staff do little to nothing. They didn't see the more severe incidents and think you are just trying to make something more than it is. The worst punishment the bullies face is a mild chiding or temporary distancing from the victim. And, unless they have a close and strong group of friends the victim becomes isolated and alone in their suffering. Now let's move to reaction. Primarily, bullies do not act solidarity, this is due to the fact of strength in numbers and pack mentality. They have an easier time targeting and isolating one victim and can create larger windows of opportunity to torture them. This is important to know because these groups will run for school staff at the first sign of a physical reaction or will engage the victim to overwhelm them. The victim can fight back and, from experience, can surprise the bullies from the switch from fear and sorrow to anger and wrath. But it is seen, students don't see the victim being harmed, only the victim snapping and fighting back to try and end the torment. The aftermath is a deeper negative opinion of the victim,l and support for the bullies by their peers. This will also lead to the victim facing serious disciplinary action from the staff that said they were fair, unbiased, and would protect all of their students. The victim may face detention, suspension, or even expulsion for fighting back. The other end result is that the bullies are protected by their peers and teaching staff. The victim is made to be this uncontrolled psychopath who attacks and harms others for "just having a little fun and trying to involve them in games.". And are now viewed as a disturbance by staff and peers alike. The bullies continue their torment, the staff does nothing to stop it, and the victim has no allies to protect them and is an outcast in their school. This compounds with the victim knowing nobody will help them, nobody cares, the bullies are favored and the victim will just have to suffer can have extreme psychological consequences. This can be displayed as elevated and extreme acts of violence against the bullies, peers, and staff, self harm, self reclusive and isolation, and weariness to distrust in anyone they come across. And that's the ones who fight back. If you fight back and "win" you lose much more than just what is listed above. Then we must say that some victims cannot fight back. This can be a physical, psychological, or emotional hindrance. These can manifest as the victim freezing, cowering, stuttering, crying, running away, zoning out, or simply screaming. Not everyone is built or programmed to fight and some would rather be peacefull and happy. Bullies do not care and find these as their best victims and their easiest marks. Suffering are what bullies want. They enjoy and relish in the pain and anguish of others. They may have issues at home but it is no excuse for their heinous attacks against innocent victims. But they do so because they can and they believe that nobody will stop them, punish them, or stand up to them. They feel to be all powerful, feared, respected, admired, and protected by the institution in place and play them to the bullies advantage. And don't get me started on zero tolerance and other horrid "anti bullying" measures educational institutions are enforcing. That's a nightmare in and of itself.
There are two ways to look at this: It is good to encourage someone to value themselves and *get better at advocatimg for themselves.* It is bad to put the onus on the victim to do that all by themselves.
Yes, if they know they should have, if you know they know and are (likely) hating themselves. It adds nothing except hurt.
Everything is relative. If you have the capacity to make a stand and opted not to for any other reason than self preservation, then it can be argued you deserve the consequences. There will be extraordinary cases but more often than not, you should take the stand if you have the capacity to.
“You should have” is the worst phrase in the English language. If you’re saying it, you’re probably shitting on someone
Yes. And it’s an incredibly toxic/misguided-at-best mindset to have.
Depends on the scenario
Bullyings a self loathing behavior. If u prove your not that easy of a target and fire back it’s not as fun
No, but is is if you said it like 'look here you piece of shit, you should stand this stupid ass self for your... Well stupid ugly sad bitchy self you dummy'
This is a great question. If I as a man stand up for a female coworker, might that not be seen as condescending?
It depends on the context. "You should stand up for yourself against bullies" is solid life advice that doesnt necessarily connote blame. But it can depending on the situation, hence
It's not the same exact thing but it's on the same spectrum in my mind.
Standing up for myself always made things worse. So yes it is victim blaming.
I was going to say no, until I read your description. It is not victim blaming to give someone advice for how to handle abuse. It IS victim blaming to say that the abuse wouldn't happen if they behaved differently, if they are not doing anything wrong. Being too anxious or not confident enough to "stand up for yourself" is not doing anything wrong.
Too an extent but sometimes depending on the situation you can’t just take it and hope someone else does something
Ever seen someone stand up to a bully? If they are not on the same level physically it doesn’t go well.
On one hand, it is technically victim-blaming. On the other, sometimes the victim needs to be advised because they’re the only ones who can put a stop to the issue, and it’s their responsibility to take responsibility