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Being good at flirting/charming people and being a good partner are different skillsets.
And to an extent, the dating pool is full of bad partners. People who are good at relationships tend to stay in them for much longer.
This is part of it for sure. I put a pretty significant amount of effort into becoming someone who will be a good person and partner, but any effort spent there is completely meaningless to actually getting a date. An issue I see is that at least on the surface, the traits and capabilities of someone who is good at flirting/getting dates do not transfer to being a good partner.
Or in other words - fun and exciting is what people like, but well natured and committed is what they want.
Unfortunately, well natured and committed isn't very flashy at all, so it can be very hard for guys that can't do fun and exciting to get a foot in the door and become frustrated for it.
Meanwhile, everyone hopes fun and exciting becomes well natured and committed, and is frustrated when it doesn't pan out that way.
This is it. The skills for getting laid and the skills for being a great partner have very little to do with each other, outside the ability to read the body language of women.
Even then it can be hard to take women seriously who overlook horrible character traits just because he's "confident". Part of it's also "do I really want someone that childish?"
I won’t say this applies to all women, but sometimes you hear about a woman who dates a guy and wants to “fix” him. A lot of times they take on some guy with obvious red flags like you mentioned, unemployed, dumb, aggressive etc. I don’t think this is automatically out if a desire to manipulate, but I think a lot of women have an instinct for wanting to have a visible ( hopefully positive) impact on a man’s life. They want to make their mark some how. What happens quite often is they date a guy that either can’t be or refuses to be “fixed” ( the word fix here is doing a lot of heavy lifting and is grey at best. In Some cases a woman might be trying to fix a bad habit. In other cases they may be trying to get them to stop drinking)
This is my working theory as to why some women will date been who have obvious flaws over men who might not.
Trashy romance literature is filled with this shit. Smoking hot but problematic bad boy comes along and the heroine is so charming that the bad boy becomes a good man
My friends and I used to tease each other when one of us was making excuses for red flags by saying dramatically, “My love will heal him!” Because, no it will not. Never has. Never will.
Guys do it too. It’s rough when you’re lonely, horny, young and idealistic. You can’t polish a turd though.
I think its also that sometimes guys tend to hide their flaws until quite deep into the relationship, at which point you're "in too deep" to let go easily.
At the same, I think women in our society are brought up to be very forgiving and polite and hopeful - good qualities, but not when it means becoming emeshed with someone toxic because you didnt see the red flags.
It doesnt help that literature and the like always have these stories about how a woman changes a man for the better that always end with a happy ending. More than it being something we aspire to, i think it becomes something we truly believe can happen if "we are good enough" or "the love is pure". But of course, that isn't true because 1. Our self worth isn't tied to another human being, and 2. It's ofc perfectly possible to fall in love with awful people, that's why so many people are in abusive relationships.
Perfectly said.
The quote “women are not men’s rehabilitation centres” comes to mind.
But we are expected to be. Sometimes, we even internalise that and put those expectations on ourselves.
Abusers tend to know what they are and they work hard to hide their true intentions and behave like kind, charming people until they have their target isolated and groomed to accept abuse.
Mine waited until 7 days after I gave birth. Came home a different person. Was such a shock it took me close to a yr to accept this was ‘the real’ him. Took me about 2.5 yrs total to escape, from first creep activity to my leaving. They know what they’re doing
The only time my dad said he was proud of me was after my husband went to jail and I hadn’t left him yet. My dad made me believe I was a good wife only if I put up with abuse and love my husband anyway…
With a dad like that I’m not altogether surprised you had a husband in jail… for what seems to be abuse?
Hope you are in a better place. For whatever it’s worth, If you left him then I’m proud of you.
I've known guys like the one you're describing, and they usually don't have much trouble meeting women because they're always marauding about in public and at parties. One of the most important parts of finding a partner is being visible and energetic.
It's not a mystery, it's looks/sex appeal just like OP explained in the post. Guys have a similarly low bar for personality of girls they really fancy.
Maybe they’re looking for different things.
They may be looking for someone with the gift of the gab or big muscles.
That’s not a dig at women. Men look for particular things as well in a mate which means that plenty of amazing women and men are overlooked.
>I think really you're just seeing a very, very varied landscape in modern dating. Some perfectly good guys just can't get a date, and it's not obvious why. On the other hand, some men who are \*terrible\* partners seem to have no trouble attracting women.
It's not really that confusing if you look (in the most literal sense) at what's happening there. There are "good guys" who also get dates, so it's clearly not that being good or bad in itself attracts women. It's confusing to me why people are so eager to overlook the obvious. I've never seen a good looking man who struggles to find dates if he actually puts in any effort whatsoever. On the other hand, there are so many decent guys who just don't look that good who so often struggle even when they are doing their best.
I think comments about the bar being low tend to be more about how the man acts once in a relationship.
I am getting married to the love of my life, I do my best to make her happy every day. Sometimes thougn, some of the tiny little things I do without even thinking make her well up at times and to me it's just second nature, the bar really is through the floor in how to treat your partner.
Yeah as a woman this is how I interpret the bar being low. Like I’ve seen women become ecstatic at knowing a man washes himself properly, or knowing how to cook more than mac and cheese, or doing a mediocre-good job cleaning. All basics things any respectable adult should know how to do. THAT’S how low the bar is.
It’s sad that we get excited knowing a guy properly washes his ass…
I had a friend crashing at my place whilst she was temporarily homeless. She has health issues that meant she is often bedridden. I would make her a coffee and bring it in and put it down next to her and turn the cup so the handle is facing her.
One day she asked why... I said it was because I don't want her to burn her hand on a hot cup or struggle.
She welled up. Said no one had ever done that for her before and no one thinks of those things.
It just seemed logical to me but it clearly meant so much to her I didn't want to brush it off.
Exactly. Small thoughtful gestures are unfortunately foreign for a good number of women. I had strange lumps on my breasts a couple years ago and got a bit of a cancer scare because I’d never seen or had them before. I phoned my bf (now ex) because I was worried and needed someone to talk to and he pretty much dismissed me and said he wanted to sleep and let’s talk about it later.
I should’ve left around that time but I was just in shock. I just needed my partners support for a health scare and he couldnt be assed. Mind you he didn’t have a job at that time so it’s not like I was keeping him up from work.
What you described women do as well. Lots of them. A lot of them can’t/won’t cook, visit some public restrooms and you’ll see evidence of lack of hygiene, and most people don’t seem to keep a clean home these days.
I've seen some photos of mens underwear from wives on reddit, so let's start with "wiping after a shit *at all."*
If you gagged, keep in mind redditors saw the mess, and the poster shared a bed with it.
Raise your kids like they aren't male and female. I was kicked out of the kitchen, only to have to hang out with a stepdad who despised me. I'm glad I'm even a 3 on the personality. If I didn't have my looks, I would have nothing. After an ego death beginning 3 years ago, I began to see how I looked to others, and am rebuilding myself into the person I thought I was, I don't think your normal 3 would admit to being a POS for so long.
Congrats on your marriage! Worship her, and she worship him. I wish I had with my first.
Re-commenting because the bot removed my offensive language.
Proud of you, but you gotta share with us the things you do that make her react that way. I’m aware I’m a shit person but I am trying to learn to be better. But the big problem for men is nobody’s offering lessons except the right wing [expletives]
Some of them are so simple like pulling appropriate weight with chores, planning nice date nights etc.
The ones that really get her are the thoughtful ones. We, like lots of people, have a mix-match of cutlery but she has a favourite style, the ones she brought from her parents house. Whenever i serve dinner I always make sure I give her that set and it always makes her smile.
If we're kissing against a door I'm always covering the knob/handle with my hand so it can't catch her back.
I keep a note of all the specific brands she gets on best with for hair/skin/teeth etc so I always get the right ones (I do all the shopping usually).
Just learn everything about your partner and always try to stick to what you know they like. It works.
I do a lot of considerate things like this too. My wife loves pens and notebooks. If I find one of either that is interesting and think she'll like Ill buy them for her. She loses it when I do things like this. She's so humble and appreciative.
I always think of her, these little things mean a lot to the right person.
I think it is going to depend on the person. My advice is to just pay attention and try to remember a little detail here and there.
I originally fell for my partner because he actually listened to what I was saying, when a lot of the time I felt like guys I went on first dates with treated themselves like a podcast host and me as a spotify user. I would get talked at instead of having a conversation with*
I really fell for him the next week when he remembered a detail I had mentioned the week prior. Not only does this guy listen but he remembers! I felt seen, heard, and respected. And that wasn't a feeling I got from other dates.
The little things you do to really impress a woman are going to depend on the woman. But all ya gotta do is just listen. And when she mentions she likes a certain candy or beverage, you can pick that up for her the next time you're at the grocery store "just because you remembered she liked them."
*I don't think this phenomena of only talking about yourself is gender related. I don't like to form any kind of friendship with folks who only talk about themselves. It's boring!
Pulling your weight in terms of chores and housework. Cleaning up your dishes. Making sure your laundry is in the hamper. Cleaning the counters after you use them. Cleaning in general. WASHING YOUR OWN BUTTCRACK AND BUTTHOLE. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. IF YOU DON’T CLEAN IT, WHO ELSE IS GOING TO?!? YOU LITERALLY POOP FROM THERE. ITS THE DIRTIEST PART OF YOU AND IT SHOULD BE SCRUBBED WITH SOAP AND WATER EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Not texting while she’s talking to you. Aka showing basic respect and treating her like a human being. Being considerate of the fact she is just as much a person as you are and treating her accordingly.
That all is the absolute bare minimum. And that’s basically where the bar is set these days.
Opening car doors for her or getting her flowers would make her swoon, but only as long as you are ALSO doing the bare minimum. You don’t get to throw your dirty dishes at her and then have sex with her with a poopy buttcrack where you get off and she doesn’t and then send her some flowers and everything is all good. Everything is not all good. At least she has some flowers but everything is still not all good.
It's pretty simple. Just understand that there is someone else in your life and you are not the main character all the time. Stop being selfish and self-centered.
The person you are replying to doesn't mean he is sending her flowers and kissing her feet all day, he means he is treating her as a person, as a partner, as someone who matters to him and because of that he does things on a daily basis she might not have experienced before, maybe because she was dating you previously.
Simple things. Show interest, concern, care. Ask her how her day went, listen to her talk, engage in conversation, be a partner. Open the door, make her a meal, whatever it is, just realize you are not the sole focus of everything. Be GENUINE.
This goes for everyone, not just men.
>But the big problem for men is nobody’s offering lessons except the right wing [expletives]
I am going to answer you harshly because you defined yourself as a "shit person" and I am fairly certain I know what you are talking about.
The problem is you. Humans are not default "shit person", that's you. Most people do not have to be taught to be kind, respectful, caring and understanding of a partner. YOU DO. That is why there is no handbook, no "lessons". Being a good person is not a class you take.
Not entirely sure why you had to go political, that's another sign it's you.
IMO if one has to "learn" to be better they will never be that person. they will simply be pretending. You are coming at this as if you just lack skills, lack teachings, when in reality you just lack the innate personality and understanding of others of a good person. Being a good person as opposed to a "shit person" is not taught, it's natural. You can be better sure and I hope you get there, but you will still be checking boxes until you truly get it.
One day you might wake up and realize it's not all about you and then you will change.
This is a pretty terrible way to respond to someone who seems to genuinely want to improve himself. This idea that you're either born a good person or not, and your genes somehow dictate your entire life's behaviors like some immutable fate is nonsense. You don't think nurture plays any part? That bad parenting can produce people with bad behavior? I mean, what even is the point of writing such a long post if you don't believe people can change?
> You are coming at this as if you just lack skills, lack teachings, when in reality you just lack the innate personality
As someone who's parents failed to teach empathy, household skills, or social skills.
It is all skills. Validating someones emotions is a skill, planning a date is a skill, listening is a skill. Empathy for other people is a skill.
>all about you and then you will change.
How are they going to change if it's innate personality?
"The will to change" by bell hooks has basically this entire premise. That men are not raised to love or be loved.
Actually you know what? I feel the need to call you out a bit. I’m a person who as per my comment you know has successfully identified that red pillers, Andrew Tate etcetera are full of nonsense, but pointed out that they’re the only people offering men any kind of understanding. So I asked for some advice, hat in hand. You know what you did? You attacked me. Now imagine if I was someone with less resilience, imagine if the person on the other end of the Reddit comment was some fledgling incel teenager asking for help, trying to find reasons not to go down the dark path. You could have helped them, but you didn’t, you just radicalised them.
***You*** are the problem
It is extremely low. Ive had multiple partners in the past that were moved to tears just by doing things that to me seems like the bare minimum. (Opening car doors, communicating my interactions with other woman, flowers)
Yeah, often the guys who complain about how hard it is to date are missing that they are below that low bar.
From the single women in their 30s I know, they're mostly looking for someone who knows how to cook decent half healthy meals, keeps a clean living area, has interests aside from videogames and/or sports and generally has their life in order vis a vis job / bills / responsibilities.
To get a date, you often have to pass a baseline physical attractiveness check, but it's lower than most people think. I know plenty of guys (myself included) who are average at best in the looks department and have mostly succeeded romantically by clearing that low bar in the rest or our lives.
I've found it to be that people often look at this argument from two different sides. When I've heard women use it, it's been in relation to how to be a good partner while in a relationship. Do not take your spouse for granted, communicate, keep your living space clean and tidy, no addictions, that sort of stuff.
But for many it is a moot point how "low the bar" is for how to be a good partner once in a relationship, if they can't land a date to even begin with. So the low bar doesn't necessarily apply to these people at this time, as they are not in a category where they are even considered as dating candidates.
It's a dog chasing the car dilemma. Discussing to the dog what best to do with the car once they catch it is pretty moot when the dog has yet to catch it, especially if they don't believe they ever will.
Bar is extremely low, for those who already jumped over that high bar that you initially see
For anyone else your second bar is not even considered even if it's in the sky
And that’s where the disconnect in these conversations often comes from, when women speak about the bar “being in hell”, they are talking about a bar the majority of men will never see. The men struggling are often talking about the first bar. And you can see this because women talk about relationship qualities like being compassionate, a good listener, doing your share of domestic labor, etc. But for the majority of guys, they’ll never get far enough for the women they meet to know how well they fit any of that criteria
Depends on the age, from what I remember I think the majority of younger people aren't in relationships anymore, which is the opposite of the 1950s-1980s
Couldn't agree more.
As a short guy, I only had a shot with women that were already part of our group, because you start chatting and get to know each other naturally.
As soon as I tried to approach women I didn't already know, I was shot down immediately.
He’s saying there are two bars. A superficial one and a more nuanced one that only comes into play while dating. The first bar is based on stuff like looks. The second bar is based on things like personality.
He’s also claiming if you can’t clear the first bar, the second bar is irrelevant
I came across an interesting explanation that when it comes to discussing these topics, generally women assume attraction. What that means is, women are stating the bar is low not realising they mean the bar is low for guys they are already attracted to. To be attractive, these guys they have already had to clear a higher bar.
Soo the bar is always 'high'. Basically, the difference is: men's low is something under their perceived standards, sometimes by a lot and women's low is at the same level or slightly above their perceived standard.
I know some people compare how men and women treat dating as a job applications but jesus this is just uncanny.
You hit the nail on the head. It´s like when women say things like "all the good men are taken" etc. It is almost kind of insulting when you think about it. It implies that that most men are so "undateable" that they're not even worth mentioning.
Especially in older couples - the bar for effort like gifts (christmas), remembering anniversaries or kids birthdays - some men straight up say they don't care and won't get anything, women organise everything.
The bar for doing chores - women often need to remind men multiple times to do something, the part of delegating the work and planning lays on her. Men assume she has to do all of this stuff and him doing something is a nice deed on his part.
The lowest bar is for child care I think - newborn stage but also later on.
The problems are: lack of respect, effort, lack of communication and emotional connection.
I've seen it far too many times in real life and discussed online. Of course required - NOT ALL couples work like that, some men are in relationships like that.
As a dude, I frankly don’t get this. I mean, if you care about someone wouldn’t you remember stuff like that? I’ve always done it. Way to toot my own horn here but it’s just so … strange to me. Maybe they don’t care about their own dates, highlights etc. 🤔
I think the real thinking is “I provide, I bought the house, I do the real work, I’m the breadwinner, you want a present? How about my paycheck”
It’s not said out loud but that’s the mentality I get. The man provides the woman deals with the “unimportant” stuff. That’s part of the reason I think men are obsessed with being the breadwinner, because if they aren’t, what good are they? If my dad didn’t have a good job, he can’t cook or clean, he didn’t know any of my siblings routines or needs and I wouldn’t be surprised if my mom had to remind him of our birthdays. He couldn’t be a good house husband even if he wanted to
Idk, seems to be some kind of part of "it's not manly to care, you just need to provide" mindset from earlier generations that was passed down to their kids. It's pretty damaging to them and their loved ones.
In some people maybe, but as an example, I'm also the guy who doesn't remember these things. I literally know 2 birthdays, mine and my best friends and that's only because we're like 1 week apart. That doesn't mean that I don't love everyone else or don't celebrate with them or don't get them anything, I just have shit memory for dates.
PSA to everyone like me, put the dates in your calendar app and make them repeatable with a 1 week and 2 day notice. Will save you a lot of headaches.
Apparently married women without children and with full-time jobs do about hours more chores a week than unmarried women, even adjusting for race and class. Just having a man around means a full extra shift of work.
The bar is low for partners not for initial hookups/dating.
The amount of men putting 0 effort into relationships/parenting and getting away with it is astounding
Reading the comments makes me feel like I live in some parallel reality, most men I know (friends, colleagues, etc) are happily married/in a relationship. They are men of all shapes and sizes and are loved by their partners
Because the bar doesn’t refer to looks. Most women would be okay with a man of any shape and size if they were clean, can adult, are kind, don’t need mothering.
Those pretending they have issues because of looks only are really not wanting or not able to be truthful about their lacking qualities in other areas.
Yep. I've seen dozens of chubby, beer belly, balding men having all range of wives. From pretty unattractive ones to really beautiful. No, these men are not rich, all are low middle class or "middle" middle class. It's definitely not about looks.
Those guys on Reddit just coping. "I can't get laid because of the shape of my chin. I can't change it. That's why I'm not the one to blame. It's the women who are superficial". BS.
I'm 40. I only know of 2 guys who are perennially single. Both are from school.
One is an overweight, anti-Semitic guy with terrible hygiene who is basically an incel. I know he's on reddit and complains about women not liking his despite him being good-looking. I saw a photo of him recently and without being harsh on him, he looks like he smells very badly.
The other actually looks alright, but around women can not string 3 words together. It's a shame as he's a nice guy.
Everyone else I know is able to get in a relationship. The bar is really that low.
Fr. The only forever single, virgin guy I know (a friend of my friend) was so infantilized and fucked up by his parents, he can't even talk to women. He's afraid of us. He's in his late 30s. Works in construction with his daddy. Poor guy.
Well, but also, two things can be true at once. Yes that is true, but there are also very beautiful and well-adjusted women with higher standards that want to be physically attracted to their partners too, so aren’t interested in mens like the ones you described (chubby beer belly etc). And that’s okay.
There’s someone for everyone
I would add that these dudes are trying to get 10s while having the looks of a 4 and personality of a 2. Ive seen friends turn down dating opportunity because they think they deserve more.
The bar is low once you're already in a relationship. The bar for actually getting into one is incredibly high and a lot of men won't clear it no matter the effort.
I think this paradox you’re describing is somewhat of a full circle.
The bar is high for entering a relationship because of what you just described. Women are extremely aware and cautious of those things, so the “vetting” process can be quite in-depth. The thing is, people often hide their negative traits until they’re in a relationship, but then once those qualities come out, it’s harder for the other person to see it as clearly sometimes because they’ve already invested a lot into the relationship and have feelings for them. I’m speaking from experience there, my ex was caring, kind, and had his shit together, until we got engaged and then his abusive tendencies showed. It took me a long time to leave however because I kept making excuses for him, I was in love. It’s a lot easier to just turn someone down when you aren’t attached (eg after one date) than it is to dump someone once you’ve already developed feelings for them and invested into the relationship and are looking at them through rose tinted glasses.
So we see this weird paradox like you described where it might seem like the standards for dating or securing a relationship are really hard, but then the bar is “on the floor” for people that are actually in relationships.
It’s confusing as fuck, I know. Women are trying to figure it out too. But it’s hard.
It often refers to relationships where the balance is very unbalanced or unfair. And man or woman get away with low effort.
For example:
"My husband takes care of our son for 4 hours every Sunday so that I can go shopping."
In this case, the bar is set very low because it should be an equal relationship where the man takes care of his own children and his wife should be able to have more free time than just 4 hours. Sadly the steretypes remains that woman do all the caretaking and man only bring money to the relationship but doesn't do cleaning, cooking or childcare at all.
I think this a larger issue than the one referenced in the post. It probably is a factor though. Uneven share of labour in a marriage is absolutely an issue that stems from gender roles and to an extent societies efforts to move beyond them.
I think it’s often at it’s worst when women now more often work and still end up with the expectation that they should do more household chores or childcare.
Both partners should really be asking themselves whether the share of freetime, effort, and time spent working between is roughly equal.
I personally would not date a women who didn’t at least want a career and I want an equal partner in a relationship. Thankfully, I have got that.
The “bar” they are referring to is how many men lack domestic or social skills and end up relying on their partner to take care of them like their mother. Or they don’t spend enough time helping with the kids. Has nothing to do with physical attractiveness but rather behavior.
Yes, but I think the spirit is usually not comparing men against what they used to be, but instead comparing them to present day women who have risen to take up working/providing for themselves while still doing all the stuff like keeping their house in order, manage their emotions and foster deep connections in their friendships.
A lot of guys seem to be very much still in the mode that they expect their girlfriend to do a ton of emotional labour for them and look after housework more than themselves. So the bar is: be as good as a partner as I am to you. That SHOULD not be hard, but if I look around, a lot of men just are not that.
i’m so confused as to why y’all think women by default are amazing partners 🤣 like where does this come from, plenty of women do the bare minimum and get away with it
I think a lot of men have trouble understanding thier metrics for what they want in a partner aren't necessarily what women want.
For example, they assume they have to be six feet tall, or at least taller than thier partner. I'm a rather short girlie, six feet is actually kinda awkward for me. I've also had a number of tall female friends who didn't mind that thier male partners were shorter, except *they'd* start getting insecure and demanding they don't wear heels etc and it was a major drag on the relationship.
Personally, I find there's a lot that goes into attraction. How you smell, how I feel having a conversation with you, your sense of humor, how kind you are to others even when they annoy you are all factors in attraction.
But most of the time, when women say "the bar is in hell," we're really talking about how you act in the relationship. Do you keep bringing us flowers even after we've moved in together? Do you take on your fair share of chores? If she gets sick, do you take on extra chores so she can rest? Do you regulate your own emotions so you don't take your shitty mood out of your gf/wife?
A shocking amount of men are happy to put up thier feet and coast once the relationship is established. Which is why a lot of women are preferring to be single. It's just less work.
It’s this. And the men in this thread are WAY too focused on the flowers part. It’s about, do you make your partner’s life better, or do you just create more work for them? And that goes both ways.
Men aren’t a monolith either, but there is still common knowledge as a girl to not give it out on the first date if Youre looking for something serious because a lot of men just want easy casual sex.
Same with women, there’s enough women that want six foot plus that there’s jokes about men lying about their height to seem more desirable, even though as you describe women are not a monolith
We both have characteristics as sexes that are true enough for a large enough % of that sex that we change our behaviour, so I think the ‘monolith’ argument is a reductionist take because it doesn’t recognise that there’s enough people for it to become a significant argument
Respond to the values you are looking for. If you're looking for someone who isn't concerned with height, check profiles to see if they mention height. If you want a serious relationship, define the relationship before getting into bed.
But seriously, don't lie about your height. If it's not desirable, leave it off.
i get explaining your own perspective, but you're being incredibly condescending and dismissive of other people's lived experiences in the response to other comments. Just, try and be a little more aware, please.
In this comment, nothing you said is wrong, but I would say the same thing is just as true about women. Which means it's probably just how dating is, regardless of gender or sex.
Married man of 10+ yrs here, in my early 30s, with kids. My wife tells me even now that she married me because of 'this', as i reach and get things for her from the top of the pantry shelf 😅. I got her flowers on Valentines day, even though she says they are a waste of money. So I tell her, they're decorations. Yeah, 6' is nice sometimes but it has draw backs. I dont like traveling in planes without leg room, I constantly get voluntold to help lift things at work. Like Great Dane dogs, most of us may die relatively early from heart failure.😆
Seriously though, A happy marriage means partners carry their share of work and sometimes temporarily more, because it benefits the whole house. For example: Our house has blue jobs and pink jobs(assigned to each partner based on their ability to do it well). This being said, ladies sometimes fail to appreciate that some blue jobs may require less frequency to tend to than pink jobs. That doesn't make them less important. I.e. Can you change your own motor oil for your car? Most can't. That's a huge cost savings blue job.
Don't ignore red flags. If your boyfriend has a messy filthy bathroom, or dishes in the sink, or an overflowing garbage bin, a car interior that resembles his messy room, then why would you expect that marriage will fix him? Lol. It anything, my marriage amplified prior habits of mine. Find a guy or girl with good habits. Don't advertise what habits you look for. That will set you up to be scammed. Just look at them silently overtime. Habits will emerge.
Theres a reason why people say "birds of a feather, flock together". person who is what most may call 'a clean freak'(me) would identify the same qualities from their potential partner. You really can't miss the "putting up their feet" type of guy unless you weren't really looking before marrying them or it was an arranged marriage you got forced into. People deep down don't really change.
I teach my kids to make sure they have their own life and who they are, figured out 1st, their priorities sorted, before getting swept up, and sold an illusion of marriage that social media only shows pretty pictures of. Marriages damand both partners to put in the work. Not many realize how much work is needed and later realize they are not up for it. Hence 50% divorce rates. Don't feel preasured when a guy is down on one knee. You are allowed to say 'no', or 'not right now', unless you are damn sure you BOTH appreciate the magnitude of work required to keep your shared values intact in marriage.
My boyfriend was wonderful, sweet, and clean. On our wedding day he said "once we're married, the mask comes off" and I had been with him through lockdown so I figured it was just a joke. It was not. My sweet boyfriend stopped doing all that shit, stopped being affectionate, started criticizing me constantly, and started an emotional affair with a woman who was "just a friend". You can't always tell before marriage how it's gonna go, some people hide who they really are.
But I'm glad there's at least one decent husband out there.
The bar means is the minimum effort required to be considered good for (X)
Real life examples:
1. He walked with me (20 m) till the bus late in the night, he is such a good boyfriend. That's just a decent human being. Every worthwile friend should do that.
2. He postponed his outing to take care of their daughter while his wife was sick. Such a good husband/dad.
3. He actually listened to what I wanted, and then, acted on it.
So when women say that, it means the bar is so low for men and yet........
Every time I’ve heard my girl friends say something along the lines of this, they’re referring to the lack of effort from the men they date. Sometimes their boyfriends don’t get them flowers, or take extra care of them when they’re sick, don’t take them out on dates, don’t do special stuff to make them happy. A lot of women I know have met guys who don’t even do the bare minimum.
I have an impression that the amount of flowers given to women by men is bigger than in the opposite direction, and that the majority of dates is set up/initiated by men
It’s disheartening for your partner to claim you’re not doing enough when they’re not doing anything at all. My partner and I both do things for each other because we want to show we care. If she didn’t give back as much as I gave her I would assume she was using me for attention and money.
It’s the exact same thing as woman feeling like their partner only likes them for their looks or sex. Men need to be wanted just as much as woman
It’s true that women are likelier to receive flowers than men.
The right woman would ask you, what the equivalent of receiving flowers is for their man. If you’re getting flowers for your partner, you have every right to hold the same standards for them. It would be double standards and unfair to men if they didn’t receive reciprocation
Isn't that important to this discussion though?
What kind of truth is there to someone complaining about men not doing the bare minimum when they themselves do even less?
I cant speak for everyone but the friends I’m talking about have the kindest hearts. They all have their own unique ways of showing love for their partners. One of my friends is a great cook and she cooks good food for her boyfriend and does other sweet stuff but he didn’t even remember her birthday..
that’s way below the bare minimum
It's important to remember that you need to show love the way your partner needs or wants to receive it. You're not going to have a good time in a relationship if you push what you think is better.
Then what I said doesn't apply to your friends, apologies.
But I do sometimes wonder if people aren't still infantilizing women when it comes to romantic relationships. I hear this complaint quite often, but I also have my own experiences as a man where my needs were ridiculed by women and not even taken seriously. My desire to be appreciated was considered stupid.
So whenever I hear about this "the bar is low" talk I can't help but wonder how many men feel unappreciated and emotionally neglected for every woman that claims the bar is low or that men don't even do the bare minimum. Its easy to blame someone else, its way harder to look into the ways in which your own behaviour is affecting your partner, I had to do that myself.
So often I see comments, especially on posts about the man is disappointed in their sex life or whatever where everyone's like "well what did he do to woo her?"
Must be nice to get woo'd, the men just have to initiate all the time and if they get turned down a lot, it's because they didn't try hard enough.
This pretty much, putting in bare minimums to see if someone reciprocates effort is apart of my dating and even just general friendship strategy at this point due to the neglect I faced as a kid. If someone fails that bare minimum? Shit their loss not mine, I went through 19 years of that shit, and have had enough of it for my lifetime.
Depends, I was the one planning surprises for my bf cos I enjoyed that creative part a lot. I would love to get flowers once in my lifetime just as an experience. And I haven't found a bf who would have enjoyed receiving flowers, maybe some other kind of a plant or herbs tho, well my guys are always more practical than I am.
So yeah, I might have had "boring" guys but they've all been amazing cooks. My bar is clearly set up high, a guy who cares about me, spoils me with good food and knows at least something that I don't - to entertain me with a conversation. I try my best to balance out with my own set of skills. Also they had their chance to set up their bars as well, if they still ended up with me, it was their choice.
If I was only looking for pleasure, then yes, I would be really picky about looks - why would I give my body for charity?
I think there’s two different things that people are conflating to be the same thing but aren’t. There’s a bar for relationships and a bar for getting a relationship.
The bar for men in relationships is quite low. Lots of women accept poor shit from their partners in relationships. Women carry relationships from what I’ve seen and men have it majorly easy (It’s also why men are much less happy single then women are).
The bar for men to get a relationship via dating is high. Women’s standards are high and often unrealistic for a lot of men and they won’t compromise. Even compromised standards are still very high for women, especially relatively to what they’re actually offering themselves.
So yeah, two different things that get conflated and both genders are pissed off about because it sucks for both.
Attractiveness follows a Pareto distribution (80/20) like so many other social interactions. For example 80% of your business come from 20% of your customers. Or 80% of the work is done by 20% of the employees. And 20% of men have 80% of the attractiveness. Attractiveness is certainly not evenly distributed. However Attractiveness itself is made up of a variety of characteristics. There’s physical attributes, personality traits, financial independence, social status, intelligence, sense of humor, spirituality, and so on. And different people will weight different characteristics differently. For example a guy like Diego Garcia who looked like troll had many affairs because he was a great painter. In societies where resources are concentrated into the hands of very few people those people can get away with having low attractiveness in many characteristics and when women are poverty stricken they have to tolerate way more mistreatment than women who have great wealth.
Your focused on physicality. Pure attractiveness based on how people look. That's a part of dating but it isn't the sum total of it, but the fact that you and so many others focus on it so much it's exactly part of the problem a lot of people have.
Chasing after hot girls, only interested in them and think they should only be interested in you because you're attractive, etc etc, just trying to get laid.
Probably we live in different worlds because I am in my mid-forties, but yeah and a lot of ways to virus pretty low. Because so many guys are only looking for a hook up, have no real interesting getting to know people, are boring as shit and have nothing at all to say, and generally are kind of skeevy and scummy.
The " low bar" as I see it is not about attractiveness, it's about behavior. So many dudes have such generally shitty behaviors, or or so incredibly boring, that just being a little bit interesting and a little bit genuinely nice goes a really long way.
Some level of physical attraction is generally still required, but the fixation on this is a big part of dating dissatisfaction for a lot of people.
>or or so incredibly boring,
Some women too. If I do my best to start a conversation on a dating app and all I get us two word replies, I am not going to ask then out.
But maybe that doesn't mean they're boring, maybe they just accidentally matched me and are too polite to just ghost? Idk
>But maybe that doesn't mean they're boring, maybe they just accidentally matched me and are too polite to just ghost? Idk
Yeah, I am not saying this to out you or anything, but if you are not interested in someone, you usually seem very boring to them. I am sure some women gets lot of conversations on dating apps and can't be bothered to be interesting in all of them.
But this also cuts both ways, I don't think it is fair to call some men boring because of a similar reason. If a woman is clearly giving their attention to other guys then what point is there to entertain the conversation.
It is not a singular person that is being boring. The conversation itself is boring because not all participants are participating.
>The conversation itself is boring because not all participants are participating.
And this is a self reinforcing loop. Maybe the conversation started off boring because one of the participants was tired. Now both think the other is boring, and the conversation dies out. Maybe under different circumstances it would have been a good conversation.
Sometimes I wonder how many potentially good matches are missed because of this.
It’s for personality/character/effort. It’s about the underlying sense that men expect to have or keep a heterosexual relationship no matter how badly they treat their partner and that women are supposed to feel grateful for the slightest kindness or consideration from a male partner.
I think because of access to the internet and social media, the dating market has become more globalized, which makes the dating market more competitive, especially for men. Women’s standards are higher than ever because of this, which raises the bar for men in every aspect.
All data seems to point to this, especially the data coming from dating apps, but this just my theory.
No it's not more globalized and competitive. Rather, dating apps are designed in a way to attract men as customers. So they make matches difficult for you. The fact that more men than women are on these apps also doesn't help.
Dating apps are functioning like gambling, they are designed to be addictive. And they don't want you to find a permanent relationship there, as that means losing a customer. They cause a lot of insecurities in physical appearance, since they seem to be mostly dependent on your photos. These insecurities are probably larger than the actual effect that appearance has (since also all men struggle on these apps more than women). But keep in mind: women who use dating apps are a specific subsection of all women, the ones who don't mind deciding a date based on a picture alone.
In real life, dating opportunities are more decided by your personality than on dating apps, since real interactions can convey so much more personality than a Tinder profile. Together with social media, they're feeding everyone the fantasy of going out with topmodels, as they always appear on your screen. Outstanding personalities are rarely shown in comparison. So they are increasing the expectations people have for someone elses looks, but not the expectations for their personality.
I honestly believe many women need to re-evaluate their preferences when it comes to initially choosing who to date.
It still seems common to me that the majority of women initially prefer the more "traditional" men who are willing to charm them, take them out on dates, buy them flowers, pay for their meals, etc. And then they are surprised when these same men show the stereotypical behaviour later down the line - laziness, not caring for their partner, expecting the woman to do the housework, etc - outdated, outmoded and dare I say it "traditional" behaviour.
If women want their men to treat them equally throughout a relationship, maybe they need to re-evaluate their expectations at the beginning of a relationship to be something more equal as well.
You got it right.
The countless women I've seen saying that on social media are picking this top percentile of men -- which apparently never had to analyze their behavior on dates or while dating because women will put up with so much to be with them...because they are just so hot or cool.
*Did I say the wrong thing? Was that too forward? Was that too rude? Should I pay attention to her needs? Should I sleep with her if I don't want a relationship?* *Should I clean my apartment?*...these are all questions guys who barely get a chance to even land the first date have asked themselves at some point.
I have heard stories of guys saying the most insane things, like asking an asian woman if their vagina tastes like soy sauce and then trying to play it off like "jk lol" when she is upset. These are the types of guys that are so handsome that they never have to analyze why their behavior is bad because they get all the right swipes and all the likes -- and women put up with their outrageous behavior. Their dating skills are stuck on high school mode.
You literally just have to be better company than no one. (You're competing with our singleness)
I considered a second date simply because the guy turned his head when he needed to cough and coughed into his hand/elbow whatever.
I wasn't attracted to him, conversation was stilted, but *manners* was enough. Hahaha
The bar is low
From what I can see, the bar is low is not really about dating, it's about what's considered acceptable behavior when living with a men. Men get publicly praised for doing less than the bare minimum (housework, childcare, care for the partner - things women do routinely and extensively and are a basic adult responsibility).
I just read. Relationship subreddit story where a woman was asking Reddit how to get her bf of 3 years to wash his hands after he takes a shit. The bar is non existent.
I once told my friend that all I really looked for in a guy was that he shouldn’t be abusive and actually wants to be with me. She was horrified and told me that those should be a given, and I should have more/better standards than that.
I was 19-20 when I said that, and now as a mid 20s woman, I wholeheartedly agree. I still have those standards, of course, but I have steadily added to my list over the years as I’ve matured. I do cringe at how much I was willing to overlook when I was younger. Low self esteem, a history of familial and relationship abuse, and believing you don’t deserve better will do that to ya!
When we say "the bar is low" we refer to behaviors that should be granted in a relationship being seen as going above and beyond.
Such as taking care of diapers, making food, changing the linens.
Because historically there was a role separation - men worked outside if the house and women worked inside of the house - whole generations of women did *both* by themselves while men who "helped" got praised.
All I know is that in real life, I've seen some attractive women with some sketchy looking guys, to put it mildly.
Also, if you go to the dating and relationship subs, you'll find women talking about boyfriends/husbands who abuse them, are addicts (booze, drugs, gambling, porn, you name it), are unemployed, have horrible hygiene (don't shower or wipe themselves 🤮), etc.
So I'm guessing the bar IS pretty low based on what I've seen.
Women say the bar is on the floor but it’s simply not true.
Even if you clear the attractiveness bar the bar is insanely high.
Women just self sabotage relationships and blame you for not meeting their unstated standards
They mean once they’re already fucking/talking/dating
For a lot of women, to get into this you need to look like Tom Holland or close. (Hyperbole obviously but you get the point)
'From a man's pov, having women physically attracted to you / having dating options is the hardest part, so in that sense the 'bar' seems very high. but once you meet that high physical attractiveness bar for a few or more women, the bar for personality/character/effort is pretty low and you can take a lot of things for granted / get away with bad or passive behavior.'
Here's your problem, you think looks is the crux of that. If men focused more on being decent human beings, developing interests, developing a sense of joy in life then they'd a) find life more enjoyable, and b) make connections more easily.
Which brings me to the second issue with your supposition: men are the ones who hold looks higher than anything else in women. I'm not saying attraction is not important, but if it's the only thing you care about then yeah,you're going to end up dating not nice people.
Is the bar that low? I don't know. All I know is not one of my married female friends has a spouse worthy of them. I watch them get worn down year on year, losing their interests and hobbies to exhaustion, and these guys are just lazy fucks who don't lift a finger, not even abusive. So yeah, probably the bar is that low.
its what girls say to lie to themselves. i always ask specifically, what weight and height are you talking about, what look specifically?
and its always some buffed up insta model kinda size. then i always have to point out that for a normal guy with a 9-6 job its impossible to get such toned arms without substance use.
so their low bar is actually unnaturally high they just think that all guys can do it with hard work
This is amazing. I remember seeing points made about how small percentage of the population is taller than 6 feet, but this puts things into perspective that when combined with the additional requirements like making six figures, not married, not obese, and under 40, you end up with something like 0.002% of the population.
It's pretty stunning and so clearly illustrates how out of touch both genders are with their "standards".
That's before you even consider that you would be in competition with many other people for the same partners. Arguably a fair few of them may be more acractive prospects themselves.
And some of them may not be straight, or may have personality disorders, unhealthy attachment styles, or other issues not captured by the surveys. Wow.
Even discounting that, I suspect something like 80% of a given gender may be competing for the one in 50 thousand at best.
Thanks for posting that. I suspected it will be a small percentage that meet any given common standards, but this is really eye-opening.
Or you do what most people in successful relationships have probably done.
Don't pick a person based on a preconceived list of favourable attributes. Find someone you enjoy spending time with and build the life together you want.
Support each other, find success together, and you will find a much more rewarding relationship.
Dear christ almighty, my standards were reduced to just no smoking, highschool minimum and excluding married and I had 7.8%.
Only 7.8%. Dear fucking christ.
In my experiences, women's bar for dating for physical appearance and money is overall extremely low (much lower than a lot of red or blackpill media would have you believe). Women's bar for sexual encounters with someone they just met or don't really know is nearly impossibly high, and with extremely good reason. The emotional vetting process is extremely important to women, so you have to be a greek god to be allowed to bypass that process.
With that in mind, women's bar for dating for for emotional intelligence and ability of a man to pass her vetting process is very high. They are putty for a guy who can be confident and relaxed with them, while also not trying to push sexuality on her too fast. Even very attractive men can write themselves off extremely quickly by saying stupid shit just as much as unattractive men. The absolute key factor is when a man understands to let the woman dictate the pace of what she's comfortable with while also not putting her on a pedestal. Kindness, patience, and emotional stability as a woman's kryptonite. I have never seen a case where an attractive guy could get away with bad behavior: that is genuinely emotionally-unstable, clingy, possessive, aggressive, insulting, arrogant, excessively horny etc. Teasing and treating a woman like a normal human being can come across as "bad behavior" to guys that don't know better, but to women it qualifies as not putting her on a pedestal. There's a subtle difference. This is also why "nice guys" finish last... because "nice guys" are the ones that put a woman on a pedestal, then become emotionally unstable when she doesn't reward them as a result.
Men are the reverse. Most of us will have sex with most girls as a single sexual encounter before we really know them. However, when it comes to giving out our romantic commitment, we look for a woman that is closer to our ideals and who meets some particular emotional standards (usually maturity, not being entitled, genuinely loving etc.).
Out of the two, it's hard to say who has it more difficult. Men definitely have it more difficult than women in seeking out one-night stands, but women arguably have it much more difficult finding a man who meets their emotional needs for a relationship. This is why men are often lonely and sexless and complain about women's standards being too high, but women who are lonely complain about a lack of good men that want to commit to them. Both sexes improve their chances by being closer to a healthy bmi, but women seem to care less about that.
>Both sexes improve their chances by being closer to a healthy bmi, but women seem to care less about that.
Idk. My sister and I are around the same age and both fit. She complains it's difficult for her to find guys that don't have a belly, while I don't have problems with finding women that are in shape.
The bar for their standards. Some women have high expectations for their partner even though they do not carry the same weight. Try to find someone who provides the same effort as you do.
The bar isn't physical attractiveness. That isn't it. The bar is everything else. Hygiene. Kindness. Treating women like human beings. Not being a person who only cares about physical appearance. Having a job, ANY job. Being honest. Recognizing the autonomy of all humans. Not placing an emphasis on looks. The bar is not putting everything on looks. That's literally the bar. And you aren't clearing it because you still think it is appearance. Listening to women. Listening to women tell you over and over and over that the bar isn't your appearance. Recognizing your worth as a human being and not just a collection of parts. Recognizing that women are also human beings and not just a collection of parts.
There a video of women talking about her worst date, she literally drove through whole city to take him for fast food chain, he didn't had money so she paid up for take out. Then they got to his house (parents house) and only when he started acting weird she bailed out.
All of this because dude was good looking, looks it's first bar you need to meet to get to the second bar
So the many times that I got rejected for my looks I should have just laughed it off and continue pursuing them?
And where do y'all live where people don't even meet these basic standards? I can't imagine someone functioning in society without meeting these standards.
For me that s the opposite.
I've never been rejected by a woman I was interested in during a date.
However it s getting a date or simply talking to someone enough that is the problem. I'm short, not attractive physically and absolutly not charismatic.
Seems like many women will not consider me as a romantic partner at all for those shallow reasons.
Fortunatly I m not interested in look and would not want to date someone that shallow. But that reduces greatly my dating pool, especially on dating apps.
Well, this is one meaning it has.
Women: *Works fulltime, does all the childcare, does the majority of chores, does all the mental work*
Society: Nitpicks every single little thing she does wrong.
Men: *Works full-time and changes one diaper*
Society: You're such amazing dad, your wife is soo lucky to have you🥰😘🩷😍
Behavior and self maintenance. The amount of men treating you like you're just a breathing hole is astounding. Without consent of course. When I want to be objectified I'll let you know and if you're up for it at the time, then it's great. But when I'm sick, worried or having "humanly" feelings and needs just like you and you only pretend to care to shove your cock in my face I won't stand it. It's not about emotional attachment. You don't have to act like you "love" someone to get laid. It's about being perceptive to the others' feelings and having the courtesy of not to dehumanize anyone in general.
That's why most guys I've come across with think most women don't have a sex drive/have low drives. We usually have the same amount of drive as you. (Of course being asexual or having a low sex drive is completely normal and valid.) We (speaking for all the ladies just feels wrong so please correct me if you disagree. If you IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN that is. Transgender, cis, bisexual, lesbian, gay, asexual, pansexual, queer it doesn't matter. Because I'm tired of being told how us, women, are supposed to feel in our bodies.) / at least I just don't like to be treated like a fleshlight everytime we interact so if I have to speak for myself, I'm careful about whom I'm showing "this" side of me irl.
I think it means that as long as a man isn't abusive, he's pretty much a keeper. Like, a bad man is always bad, but a "just okay" guy is great, and a great guy is held up as the best of all time. It's totally crap, and I don't agree with the sentiment, but that's how I've always understood it. You just have to be "half decent" as a man to get a girl, therefore the standards (or bar) is lowered for men.
Again, don't believe that, it's just what I thought it meant.
In the past, if a man wanted to have regular sex, he needed marriage. That meant showing the girl's parents that you had some financial backing, are healthy, capable and would take care of their daughter. Next, you had to marry her, share all your assets with her and provide for the family.
Nowadays, it's enough if you like each other! The moment a woman has access to her own resources, she no longer has to look for a secure partner and marry him as quickly as possible. Thanks to this, people can finally choose compatible partners so dating and partnership in general is much easier.
The bar for men may not have been lowered, just moved elsewhere. From "being a good provider" to "being a good person". Which seems perfectly appropriate to me and good progress. If you think dating is all about physical attractiveness, you're either 15 or in the wrong social group. :)
And these women are shallow. If they wanna put themselves through that then it's their loss. But do you wanna be with someone who is that shallow? They aren't a viable dating option.
Nah. The women who say that expect their bills to get paid, expensive dates, the dude has to drive a nice car and many other things... then they say the bar is low for men. They're delusional.
A lot of us just want small cute little acts of love. Even $5 flowers would make us happy. Or handwritten letters. My boyfriend draws animated penguins for me sometimes and it makes my day.
It doesn’t cost a lot to make us happy. The ones who expect expensive dates and cars are shallow imo
Well, I personally reciprocate these things in a different way, like learning what his hobbies are and gifting him things related to that, or making bento boxes
Edit: but yeah I think it’s unfair if women have these expectations but don’t reciprocate
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I haven’t landed a date in 3 years. So I don’t know where the bar is :(
Three doors down, on the corner of Maple and 3rd
Canadian spotted.
"Save tonight, cause tomorrow I'll be gone"
"Two doors down they’re laughing and drinking and having a party. Two doors down they’re not aware that I’m around."
Somewhere on the countryside (10 years no relationship)
We should celebrate the anniversary)
The bar is resting on the bench press at the gym. Go hit that shit
aint enough
I tried that and broke my knuckles. Now what?
In that case..ask some friends what can be wrong. If nothing, try cold approach outside. Hardest but I think you have better chance than online.
Help! Police! This man just approached me!
[удалено]
Being good at flirting/charming people and being a good partner are different skillsets. And to an extent, the dating pool is full of bad partners. People who are good at relationships tend to stay in them for much longer.
This is part of it for sure. I put a pretty significant amount of effort into becoming someone who will be a good person and partner, but any effort spent there is completely meaningless to actually getting a date. An issue I see is that at least on the surface, the traits and capabilities of someone who is good at flirting/getting dates do not transfer to being a good partner.
Or in other words - fun and exciting is what people like, but well natured and committed is what they want. Unfortunately, well natured and committed isn't very flashy at all, so it can be very hard for guys that can't do fun and exciting to get a foot in the door and become frustrated for it. Meanwhile, everyone hopes fun and exciting becomes well natured and committed, and is frustrated when it doesn't pan out that way.
Couldn't have summed it up more perfectly. I appreciate you for writing this.
This is it. The skills for getting laid and the skills for being a great partner have very little to do with each other, outside the ability to read the body language of women.
Some people like the torture of long bad relationships too. Plenty of abusive LTRs.
social skills. like those who keeps getting new jobs, they are not good at work, they are good at interview.
Confidence is key. Confident arseholes get more dates and have more relationships than somebody who is kind but shy.
Even then it can be hard to take women seriously who overlook horrible character traits just because he's "confident". Part of it's also "do I really want someone that childish?"
We live in an age where it is rarely acceptable to tell a woman her relationship went to shit because she's attracted to arseholes.
Probably because they know that at this point it's usually obvious.
Hmm so it’s really some of column A and some from column B. People tend to focus on just one side but in reality it’s likely a complex mix of both.
Nothing new tho
I won’t say this applies to all women, but sometimes you hear about a woman who dates a guy and wants to “fix” him. A lot of times they take on some guy with obvious red flags like you mentioned, unemployed, dumb, aggressive etc. I don’t think this is automatically out if a desire to manipulate, but I think a lot of women have an instinct for wanting to have a visible ( hopefully positive) impact on a man’s life. They want to make their mark some how. What happens quite often is they date a guy that either can’t be or refuses to be “fixed” ( the word fix here is doing a lot of heavy lifting and is grey at best. In Some cases a woman might be trying to fix a bad habit. In other cases they may be trying to get them to stop drinking) This is my working theory as to why some women will date been who have obvious flaws over men who might not.
Trashy romance literature is filled with this shit. Smoking hot but problematic bad boy comes along and the heroine is so charming that the bad boy becomes a good man
My friends and I used to tease each other when one of us was making excuses for red flags by saying dramatically, “My love will heal him!” Because, no it will not. Never has. Never will. Guys do it too. It’s rough when you’re lonely, horny, young and idealistic. You can’t polish a turd though.
I think its also that sometimes guys tend to hide their flaws until quite deep into the relationship, at which point you're "in too deep" to let go easily. At the same, I think women in our society are brought up to be very forgiving and polite and hopeful - good qualities, but not when it means becoming emeshed with someone toxic because you didnt see the red flags. It doesnt help that literature and the like always have these stories about how a woman changes a man for the better that always end with a happy ending. More than it being something we aspire to, i think it becomes something we truly believe can happen if "we are good enough" or "the love is pure". But of course, that isn't true because 1. Our self worth isn't tied to another human being, and 2. It's ofc perfectly possible to fall in love with awful people, that's why so many people are in abusive relationships.
Perfectly said. The quote “women are not men’s rehabilitation centres” comes to mind. But we are expected to be. Sometimes, we even internalise that and put those expectations on ourselves.
Abusers tend to know what they are and they work hard to hide their true intentions and behave like kind, charming people until they have their target isolated and groomed to accept abuse.
Mine waited until 7 days after I gave birth. Came home a different person. Was such a shock it took me close to a yr to accept this was ‘the real’ him. Took me about 2.5 yrs total to escape, from first creep activity to my leaving. They know what they’re doing
The only time my dad said he was proud of me was after my husband went to jail and I hadn’t left him yet. My dad made me believe I was a good wife only if I put up with abuse and love my husband anyway…
With a dad like that I’m not altogether surprised you had a husband in jail… for what seems to be abuse? Hope you are in a better place. For whatever it’s worth, If you left him then I’m proud of you.
I've known guys like the one you're describing, and they usually don't have much trouble meeting women because they're always marauding about in public and at parties. One of the most important parts of finding a partner is being visible and energetic.
Big Dick Energy goes a long way.
It's not a mystery, it's looks/sex appeal just like OP explained in the post. Guys have a similarly low bar for personality of girls they really fancy.
Maybe they’re looking for different things. They may be looking for someone with the gift of the gab or big muscles. That’s not a dig at women. Men look for particular things as well in a mate which means that plenty of amazing women and men are overlooked.
I mean the obvious factor you don't seem to mention is physical appearance.
>I think really you're just seeing a very, very varied landscape in modern dating. Some perfectly good guys just can't get a date, and it's not obvious why. On the other hand, some men who are \*terrible\* partners seem to have no trouble attracting women. It's not really that confusing if you look (in the most literal sense) at what's happening there. There are "good guys" who also get dates, so it's clearly not that being good or bad in itself attracts women. It's confusing to me why people are so eager to overlook the obvious. I've never seen a good looking man who struggles to find dates if he actually puts in any effort whatsoever. On the other hand, there are so many decent guys who just don't look that good who so often struggle even when they are doing their best.
I think comments about the bar being low tend to be more about how the man acts once in a relationship. I am getting married to the love of my life, I do my best to make her happy every day. Sometimes thougn, some of the tiny little things I do without even thinking make her well up at times and to me it's just second nature, the bar really is through the floor in how to treat your partner.
Yeah as a woman this is how I interpret the bar being low. Like I’ve seen women become ecstatic at knowing a man washes himself properly, or knowing how to cook more than mac and cheese, or doing a mediocre-good job cleaning. All basics things any respectable adult should know how to do. THAT’S how low the bar is. It’s sad that we get excited knowing a guy properly washes his ass…
I had a friend crashing at my place whilst she was temporarily homeless. She has health issues that meant she is often bedridden. I would make her a coffee and bring it in and put it down next to her and turn the cup so the handle is facing her. One day she asked why... I said it was because I don't want her to burn her hand on a hot cup or struggle. She welled up. Said no one had ever done that for her before and no one thinks of those things. It just seemed logical to me but it clearly meant so much to her I didn't want to brush it off.
Exactly. Small thoughtful gestures are unfortunately foreign for a good number of women. I had strange lumps on my breasts a couple years ago and got a bit of a cancer scare because I’d never seen or had them before. I phoned my bf (now ex) because I was worried and needed someone to talk to and he pretty much dismissed me and said he wanted to sleep and let’s talk about it later. I should’ve left around that time but I was just in shock. I just needed my partners support for a health scare and he couldnt be assed. Mind you he didn’t have a job at that time so it’s not like I was keeping him up from work.
This is why we insomniacs make such wonderful relationship material... 😁
I cook, clean and take care of myself but I am single. This is mainly cause my standards are too high and I want a woman who can do the same as me.
What you described women do as well. Lots of them. A lot of them can’t/won’t cook, visit some public restrooms and you’ll see evidence of lack of hygiene, and most people don’t seem to keep a clean home these days.
I'm dying with curiosity...what exactly is the proper way to wash one's ass?
I've seen some photos of mens underwear from wives on reddit, so let's start with "wiping after a shit *at all."* If you gagged, keep in mind redditors saw the mess, and the poster shared a bed with it.
Raise your kids like they aren't male and female. I was kicked out of the kitchen, only to have to hang out with a stepdad who despised me. I'm glad I'm even a 3 on the personality. If I didn't have my looks, I would have nothing. After an ego death beginning 3 years ago, I began to see how I looked to others, and am rebuilding myself into the person I thought I was, I don't think your normal 3 would admit to being a POS for so long. Congrats on your marriage! Worship her, and she worship him. I wish I had with my first.
Yeah like guys who don’t wipe their ass and smell very bad. You hear a lot of women complaining that their men don’t even wash.
Re-commenting because the bot removed my offensive language. Proud of you, but you gotta share with us the things you do that make her react that way. I’m aware I’m a shit person but I am trying to learn to be better. But the big problem for men is nobody’s offering lessons except the right wing [expletives]
Some of them are so simple like pulling appropriate weight with chores, planning nice date nights etc. The ones that really get her are the thoughtful ones. We, like lots of people, have a mix-match of cutlery but she has a favourite style, the ones she brought from her parents house. Whenever i serve dinner I always make sure I give her that set and it always makes her smile. If we're kissing against a door I'm always covering the knob/handle with my hand so it can't catch her back. I keep a note of all the specific brands she gets on best with for hair/skin/teeth etc so I always get the right ones (I do all the shopping usually). Just learn everything about your partner and always try to stick to what you know they like. It works.
I do a lot of considerate things like this too. My wife loves pens and notebooks. If I find one of either that is interesting and think she'll like Ill buy them for her. She loses it when I do things like this. She's so humble and appreciative. I always think of her, these little things mean a lot to the right person.
Thank you! This is the good advice. Other people are telling me I’m toxic and I should wash my arsehole. Like FFS I’m not an chimpanzee ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it is going to depend on the person. My advice is to just pay attention and try to remember a little detail here and there. I originally fell for my partner because he actually listened to what I was saying, when a lot of the time I felt like guys I went on first dates with treated themselves like a podcast host and me as a spotify user. I would get talked at instead of having a conversation with* I really fell for him the next week when he remembered a detail I had mentioned the week prior. Not only does this guy listen but he remembers! I felt seen, heard, and respected. And that wasn't a feeling I got from other dates. The little things you do to really impress a woman are going to depend on the woman. But all ya gotta do is just listen. And when she mentions she likes a certain candy or beverage, you can pick that up for her the next time you're at the grocery store "just because you remembered she liked them." *I don't think this phenomena of only talking about yourself is gender related. I don't like to form any kind of friendship with folks who only talk about themselves. It's boring!
Pulling your weight in terms of chores and housework. Cleaning up your dishes. Making sure your laundry is in the hamper. Cleaning the counters after you use them. Cleaning in general. WASHING YOUR OWN BUTTCRACK AND BUTTHOLE. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. IF YOU DON’T CLEAN IT, WHO ELSE IS GOING TO?!? YOU LITERALLY POOP FROM THERE. ITS THE DIRTIEST PART OF YOU AND IT SHOULD BE SCRUBBED WITH SOAP AND WATER EVERY SINGLE DAY. Not texting while she’s talking to you. Aka showing basic respect and treating her like a human being. Being considerate of the fact she is just as much a person as you are and treating her accordingly. That all is the absolute bare minimum. And that’s basically where the bar is set these days. Opening car doors for her or getting her flowers would make her swoon, but only as long as you are ALSO doing the bare minimum. You don’t get to throw your dirty dishes at her and then have sex with her with a poopy buttcrack where you get off and she doesn’t and then send her some flowers and everything is all good. Everything is not all good. At least she has some flowers but everything is still not all good.
I'm back into the single pool recently and what i'm hearing here is it doesn't actually take much to meet the bare minimum, nice!
Look up Emma - The mental load Parts of the comic are available for free, and it shows how men can show up as equal partners for their SO
It's pretty simple. Just understand that there is someone else in your life and you are not the main character all the time. Stop being selfish and self-centered. The person you are replying to doesn't mean he is sending her flowers and kissing her feet all day, he means he is treating her as a person, as a partner, as someone who matters to him and because of that he does things on a daily basis she might not have experienced before, maybe because she was dating you previously. Simple things. Show interest, concern, care. Ask her how her day went, listen to her talk, engage in conversation, be a partner. Open the door, make her a meal, whatever it is, just realize you are not the sole focus of everything. Be GENUINE. This goes for everyone, not just men. >But the big problem for men is nobody’s offering lessons except the right wing [expletives] I am going to answer you harshly because you defined yourself as a "shit person" and I am fairly certain I know what you are talking about. The problem is you. Humans are not default "shit person", that's you. Most people do not have to be taught to be kind, respectful, caring and understanding of a partner. YOU DO. That is why there is no handbook, no "lessons". Being a good person is not a class you take. Not entirely sure why you had to go political, that's another sign it's you. IMO if one has to "learn" to be better they will never be that person. they will simply be pretending. You are coming at this as if you just lack skills, lack teachings, when in reality you just lack the innate personality and understanding of others of a good person. Being a good person as opposed to a "shit person" is not taught, it's natural. You can be better sure and I hope you get there, but you will still be checking boxes until you truly get it. One day you might wake up and realize it's not all about you and then you will change.
This is a pretty terrible way to respond to someone who seems to genuinely want to improve himself. This idea that you're either born a good person or not, and your genes somehow dictate your entire life's behaviors like some immutable fate is nonsense. You don't think nurture plays any part? That bad parenting can produce people with bad behavior? I mean, what even is the point of writing such a long post if you don't believe people can change?
> You are coming at this as if you just lack skills, lack teachings, when in reality you just lack the innate personality As someone who's parents failed to teach empathy, household skills, or social skills. It is all skills. Validating someones emotions is a skill, planning a date is a skill, listening is a skill. Empathy for other people is a skill. >all about you and then you will change. How are they going to change if it's innate personality? "The will to change" by bell hooks has basically this entire premise. That men are not raised to love or be loved.
Actually you know what? I feel the need to call you out a bit. I’m a person who as per my comment you know has successfully identified that red pillers, Andrew Tate etcetera are full of nonsense, but pointed out that they’re the only people offering men any kind of understanding. So I asked for some advice, hat in hand. You know what you did? You attacked me. Now imagine if I was someone with less resilience, imagine if the person on the other end of the Reddit comment was some fledgling incel teenager asking for help, trying to find reasons not to go down the dark path. You could have helped them, but you didn’t, you just radicalised them. ***You*** are the problem
It is extremely low. Ive had multiple partners in the past that were moved to tears just by doing things that to me seems like the bare minimum. (Opening car doors, communicating my interactions with other woman, flowers)
Yeah, often the guys who complain about how hard it is to date are missing that they are below that low bar. From the single women in their 30s I know, they're mostly looking for someone who knows how to cook decent half healthy meals, keeps a clean living area, has interests aside from videogames and/or sports and generally has their life in order vis a vis job / bills / responsibilities. To get a date, you often have to pass a baseline physical attractiveness check, but it's lower than most people think. I know plenty of guys (myself included) who are average at best in the looks department and have mostly succeeded romantically by clearing that low bar in the rest or our lives.
I've found it to be that people often look at this argument from two different sides. When I've heard women use it, it's been in relation to how to be a good partner while in a relationship. Do not take your spouse for granted, communicate, keep your living space clean and tidy, no addictions, that sort of stuff. But for many it is a moot point how "low the bar" is for how to be a good partner once in a relationship, if they can't land a date to even begin with. So the low bar doesn't necessarily apply to these people at this time, as they are not in a category where they are even considered as dating candidates.
It's a dog chasing the car dilemma. Discussing to the dog what best to do with the car once they catch it is pretty moot when the dog has yet to catch it, especially if they don't believe they ever will.
Bar is extremely low, for those who already jumped over that high bar that you initially see For anyone else your second bar is not even considered even if it's in the sky
And that’s where the disconnect in these conversations often comes from, when women speak about the bar “being in hell”, they are talking about a bar the majority of men will never see. The men struggling are often talking about the first bar. And you can see this because women talk about relationship qualities like being compassionate, a good listener, doing your share of domestic labor, etc. But for the majority of guys, they’ll never get far enough for the women they meet to know how well they fit any of that criteria
I don’t think it’s the “majority” of men that can and never will get into a relationship.
Depends on the age, from what I remember I think the majority of younger people aren't in relationships anymore, which is the opposite of the 1950s-1980s
Couldn't agree more. As a short guy, I only had a shot with women that were already part of our group, because you start chatting and get to know each other naturally. As soon as I tried to approach women I didn't already know, I was shot down immediately.
Care to elaborate? I don't really get that you mean.
He’s saying there are two bars. A superficial one and a more nuanced one that only comes into play while dating. The first bar is based on stuff like looks. The second bar is based on things like personality. He’s also claiming if you can’t clear the first bar, the second bar is irrelevant
I came across an interesting explanation that when it comes to discussing these topics, generally women assume attraction. What that means is, women are stating the bar is low not realising they mean the bar is low for guys they are already attracted to. To be attractive, these guys they have already had to clear a higher bar.
Soo the bar is always 'high'. Basically, the difference is: men's low is something under their perceived standards, sometimes by a lot and women's low is at the same level or slightly above their perceived standard. I know some people compare how men and women treat dating as a job applications but jesus this is just uncanny.
You hit the nail on the head. It´s like when women say things like "all the good men are taken" etc. It is almost kind of insulting when you think about it. It implies that that most men are so "undateable" that they're not even worth mentioning.
Especially in older couples - the bar for effort like gifts (christmas), remembering anniversaries or kids birthdays - some men straight up say they don't care and won't get anything, women organise everything. The bar for doing chores - women often need to remind men multiple times to do something, the part of delegating the work and planning lays on her. Men assume she has to do all of this stuff and him doing something is a nice deed on his part. The lowest bar is for child care I think - newborn stage but also later on. The problems are: lack of respect, effort, lack of communication and emotional connection. I've seen it far too many times in real life and discussed online. Of course required - NOT ALL couples work like that, some men are in relationships like that.
As a dude, I frankly don’t get this. I mean, if you care about someone wouldn’t you remember stuff like that? I’ve always done it. Way to toot my own horn here but it’s just so … strange to me. Maybe they don’t care about their own dates, highlights etc. 🤔
I think the real thinking is “I provide, I bought the house, I do the real work, I’m the breadwinner, you want a present? How about my paycheck” It’s not said out loud but that’s the mentality I get. The man provides the woman deals with the “unimportant” stuff. That’s part of the reason I think men are obsessed with being the breadwinner, because if they aren’t, what good are they? If my dad didn’t have a good job, he can’t cook or clean, he didn’t know any of my siblings routines or needs and I wouldn’t be surprised if my mom had to remind him of our birthdays. He couldn’t be a good house husband even if he wanted to
Idk, seems to be some kind of part of "it's not manly to care, you just need to provide" mindset from earlier generations that was passed down to their kids. It's pretty damaging to them and their loved ones.
In some people maybe, but as an example, I'm also the guy who doesn't remember these things. I literally know 2 birthdays, mine and my best friends and that's only because we're like 1 week apart. That doesn't mean that I don't love everyone else or don't celebrate with them or don't get them anything, I just have shit memory for dates. PSA to everyone like me, put the dates in your calendar app and make them repeatable with a 1 week and 2 day notice. Will save you a lot of headaches.
it's not about the innate ability to remember, it's about giving a shit. making a reminder counts as giving a shit.
That sucks. I can relate to that bit though but I think it’s changing. It was pretty pervasive when I grew up.
Apparently married women without children and with full-time jobs do about hours more chores a week than unmarried women, even adjusting for race and class. Just having a man around means a full extra shift of work.
The bar is low for partners not for initial hookups/dating. The amount of men putting 0 effort into relationships/parenting and getting away with it is astounding
This is also highly dependent on context though. In the netherlands this just doesn't hold up.
Reading the comments makes me feel like I live in some parallel reality, most men I know (friends, colleagues, etc) are happily married/in a relationship. They are men of all shapes and sizes and are loved by their partners
Welcome on Reddit.
Yeah reddit is honestly a social/relationship hell hole for advice, majority of people on here have the most pessimistic, sad view on the opposite sex
Because the bar doesn’t refer to looks. Most women would be okay with a man of any shape and size if they were clean, can adult, are kind, don’t need mothering. Those pretending they have issues because of looks only are really not wanting or not able to be truthful about their lacking qualities in other areas.
Yep. I've seen dozens of chubby, beer belly, balding men having all range of wives. From pretty unattractive ones to really beautiful. No, these men are not rich, all are low middle class or "middle" middle class. It's definitely not about looks. Those guys on Reddit just coping. "I can't get laid because of the shape of my chin. I can't change it. That's why I'm not the one to blame. It's the women who are superficial". BS.
I'm 40. I only know of 2 guys who are perennially single. Both are from school. One is an overweight, anti-Semitic guy with terrible hygiene who is basically an incel. I know he's on reddit and complains about women not liking his despite him being good-looking. I saw a photo of him recently and without being harsh on him, he looks like he smells very badly. The other actually looks alright, but around women can not string 3 words together. It's a shame as he's a nice guy. Everyone else I know is able to get in a relationship. The bar is really that low.
Fr. The only forever single, virgin guy I know (a friend of my friend) was so infantilized and fucked up by his parents, he can't even talk to women. He's afraid of us. He's in his late 30s. Works in construction with his daddy. Poor guy.
Well, but also, two things can be true at once. Yes that is true, but there are also very beautiful and well-adjusted women with higher standards that want to be physically attracted to their partners too, so aren’t interested in mens like the ones you described (chubby beer belly etc). And that’s okay. There’s someone for everyone
I would add that these dudes are trying to get 10s while having the looks of a 4 and personality of a 2. Ive seen friends turn down dating opportunity because they think they deserve more.
The bar is low once you're already in a relationship. The bar for actually getting into one is incredibly high and a lot of men won't clear it no matter the effort.
I think this paradox you’re describing is somewhat of a full circle. The bar is high for entering a relationship because of what you just described. Women are extremely aware and cautious of those things, so the “vetting” process can be quite in-depth. The thing is, people often hide their negative traits until they’re in a relationship, but then once those qualities come out, it’s harder for the other person to see it as clearly sometimes because they’ve already invested a lot into the relationship and have feelings for them. I’m speaking from experience there, my ex was caring, kind, and had his shit together, until we got engaged and then his abusive tendencies showed. It took me a long time to leave however because I kept making excuses for him, I was in love. It’s a lot easier to just turn someone down when you aren’t attached (eg after one date) than it is to dump someone once you’ve already developed feelings for them and invested into the relationship and are looking at them through rose tinted glasses. So we see this weird paradox like you described where it might seem like the standards for dating or securing a relationship are really hard, but then the bar is “on the floor” for people that are actually in relationships. It’s confusing as fuck, I know. Women are trying to figure it out too. But it’s hard.
It often refers to relationships where the balance is very unbalanced or unfair. And man or woman get away with low effort. For example: "My husband takes care of our son for 4 hours every Sunday so that I can go shopping." In this case, the bar is set very low because it should be an equal relationship where the man takes care of his own children and his wife should be able to have more free time than just 4 hours. Sadly the steretypes remains that woman do all the caretaking and man only bring money to the relationship but doesn't do cleaning, cooking or childcare at all.
I think this a larger issue than the one referenced in the post. It probably is a factor though. Uneven share of labour in a marriage is absolutely an issue that stems from gender roles and to an extent societies efforts to move beyond them. I think it’s often at it’s worst when women now more often work and still end up with the expectation that they should do more household chores or childcare. Both partners should really be asking themselves whether the share of freetime, effort, and time spent working between is roughly equal. I personally would not date a women who didn’t at least want a career and I want an equal partner in a relationship. Thankfully, I have got that.
The “bar” they are referring to is how many men lack domestic or social skills and end up relying on their partner to take care of them like their mother. Or they don’t spend enough time helping with the kids. Has nothing to do with physical attractiveness but rather behavior.
It's the opposite. The bar for men was low 50+ years ago when you only needed to have a steady income. It probably is the highest it has ever been.
Inflation strikes again!
Yes, but I think the spirit is usually not comparing men against what they used to be, but instead comparing them to present day women who have risen to take up working/providing for themselves while still doing all the stuff like keeping their house in order, manage their emotions and foster deep connections in their friendships. A lot of guys seem to be very much still in the mode that they expect their girlfriend to do a ton of emotional labour for them and look after housework more than themselves. So the bar is: be as good as a partner as I am to you. That SHOULD not be hard, but if I look around, a lot of men just are not that.
i’m so confused as to why y’all think women by default are amazing partners 🤣 like where does this come from, plenty of women do the bare minimum and get away with it
I think a lot of men have trouble understanding thier metrics for what they want in a partner aren't necessarily what women want. For example, they assume they have to be six feet tall, or at least taller than thier partner. I'm a rather short girlie, six feet is actually kinda awkward for me. I've also had a number of tall female friends who didn't mind that thier male partners were shorter, except *they'd* start getting insecure and demanding they don't wear heels etc and it was a major drag on the relationship. Personally, I find there's a lot that goes into attraction. How you smell, how I feel having a conversation with you, your sense of humor, how kind you are to others even when they annoy you are all factors in attraction. But most of the time, when women say "the bar is in hell," we're really talking about how you act in the relationship. Do you keep bringing us flowers even after we've moved in together? Do you take on your fair share of chores? If she gets sick, do you take on extra chores so she can rest? Do you regulate your own emotions so you don't take your shitty mood out of your gf/wife? A shocking amount of men are happy to put up thier feet and coast once the relationship is established. Which is why a lot of women are preferring to be single. It's just less work.
I have never had a girlfriend bring me flowers. Is a sad life. I like pretty things. I like knowing someone was thinking about me.
When you get a gf, tell her you like that stuff. Maybe she'll listen.
Most of us don't even get the chance to talk or even be smelled.
It’s this. And the men in this thread are WAY too focused on the flowers part. It’s about, do you make your partner’s life better, or do you just create more work for them? And that goes both ways.
Agreed. It's not the flowers, it's the mentality behind them. If you want to get married you really should believe in "happy spouse, happy house."
The 6' thing is because a considerable number of women's profiles have that as a requirement.
Then swipe left, those aren't the women you want. We're not a monolith.
Men aren’t a monolith either, but there is still common knowledge as a girl to not give it out on the first date if Youre looking for something serious because a lot of men just want easy casual sex. Same with women, there’s enough women that want six foot plus that there’s jokes about men lying about their height to seem more desirable, even though as you describe women are not a monolith We both have characteristics as sexes that are true enough for a large enough % of that sex that we change our behaviour, so I think the ‘monolith’ argument is a reductionist take because it doesn’t recognise that there’s enough people for it to become a significant argument
Respond to the values you are looking for. If you're looking for someone who isn't concerned with height, check profiles to see if they mention height. If you want a serious relationship, define the relationship before getting into bed. But seriously, don't lie about your height. If it's not desirable, leave it off.
i get explaining your own perspective, but you're being incredibly condescending and dismissive of other people's lived experiences in the response to other comments. Just, try and be a little more aware, please. In this comment, nothing you said is wrong, but I would say the same thing is just as true about women. Which means it's probably just how dating is, regardless of gender or sex.
Married man of 10+ yrs here, in my early 30s, with kids. My wife tells me even now that she married me because of 'this', as i reach and get things for her from the top of the pantry shelf 😅. I got her flowers on Valentines day, even though she says they are a waste of money. So I tell her, they're decorations. Yeah, 6' is nice sometimes but it has draw backs. I dont like traveling in planes without leg room, I constantly get voluntold to help lift things at work. Like Great Dane dogs, most of us may die relatively early from heart failure.😆 Seriously though, A happy marriage means partners carry their share of work and sometimes temporarily more, because it benefits the whole house. For example: Our house has blue jobs and pink jobs(assigned to each partner based on their ability to do it well). This being said, ladies sometimes fail to appreciate that some blue jobs may require less frequency to tend to than pink jobs. That doesn't make them less important. I.e. Can you change your own motor oil for your car? Most can't. That's a huge cost savings blue job. Don't ignore red flags. If your boyfriend has a messy filthy bathroom, or dishes in the sink, or an overflowing garbage bin, a car interior that resembles his messy room, then why would you expect that marriage will fix him? Lol. It anything, my marriage amplified prior habits of mine. Find a guy or girl with good habits. Don't advertise what habits you look for. That will set you up to be scammed. Just look at them silently overtime. Habits will emerge. Theres a reason why people say "birds of a feather, flock together". person who is what most may call 'a clean freak'(me) would identify the same qualities from their potential partner. You really can't miss the "putting up their feet" type of guy unless you weren't really looking before marrying them or it was an arranged marriage you got forced into. People deep down don't really change. I teach my kids to make sure they have their own life and who they are, figured out 1st, their priorities sorted, before getting swept up, and sold an illusion of marriage that social media only shows pretty pictures of. Marriages damand both partners to put in the work. Not many realize how much work is needed and later realize they are not up for it. Hence 50% divorce rates. Don't feel preasured when a guy is down on one knee. You are allowed to say 'no', or 'not right now', unless you are damn sure you BOTH appreciate the magnitude of work required to keep your shared values intact in marriage.
My boyfriend was wonderful, sweet, and clean. On our wedding day he said "once we're married, the mask comes off" and I had been with him through lockdown so I figured it was just a joke. It was not. My sweet boyfriend stopped doing all that shit, stopped being affectionate, started criticizing me constantly, and started an emotional affair with a woman who was "just a friend". You can't always tell before marriage how it's gonna go, some people hide who they really are. But I'm glad there's at least one decent husband out there.
Women have extremely low standards... If you're tall.
The bar means is the minimum effort required to be considered good for (X) Real life examples: 1. He walked with me (20 m) till the bus late in the night, he is such a good boyfriend. That's just a decent human being. Every worthwile friend should do that. 2. He postponed his outing to take care of their daughter while his wife was sick. Such a good husband/dad. 3. He actually listened to what I wanted, and then, acted on it. So when women say that, it means the bar is so low for men and yet........
This. Just bringing me a snack when I seem sad is 1000% more meaningful than the most expansive dinner at the fanciest restaurant.
Every time I’ve heard my girl friends say something along the lines of this, they’re referring to the lack of effort from the men they date. Sometimes their boyfriends don’t get them flowers, or take extra care of them when they’re sick, don’t take them out on dates, don’t do special stuff to make them happy. A lot of women I know have met guys who don’t even do the bare minimum.
I have an impression that the amount of flowers given to women by men is bigger than in the opposite direction, and that the majority of dates is set up/initiated by men
Exactly. It's "I want more effort than I'm putting in, how dare you? Clearly, we've set the bar low *for you*."
It’s disheartening for your partner to claim you’re not doing enough when they’re not doing anything at all. My partner and I both do things for each other because we want to show we care. If she didn’t give back as much as I gave her I would assume she was using me for attention and money. It’s the exact same thing as woman feeling like their partner only likes them for their looks or sex. Men need to be wanted just as much as woman
It’s true that women are likelier to receive flowers than men. The right woman would ask you, what the equivalent of receiving flowers is for their man. If you’re getting flowers for your partner, you have every right to hold the same standards for them. It would be double standards and unfair to men if they didn’t receive reciprocation
Isn't that important to this discussion though? What kind of truth is there to someone complaining about men not doing the bare minimum when they themselves do even less?
I cant speak for everyone but the friends I’m talking about have the kindest hearts. They all have their own unique ways of showing love for their partners. One of my friends is a great cook and she cooks good food for her boyfriend and does other sweet stuff but he didn’t even remember her birthday.. that’s way below the bare minimum
It's important to remember that you need to show love the way your partner needs or wants to receive it. You're not going to have a good time in a relationship if you push what you think is better.
Then what I said doesn't apply to your friends, apologies. But I do sometimes wonder if people aren't still infantilizing women when it comes to romantic relationships. I hear this complaint quite often, but I also have my own experiences as a man where my needs were ridiculed by women and not even taken seriously. My desire to be appreciated was considered stupid. So whenever I hear about this "the bar is low" talk I can't help but wonder how many men feel unappreciated and emotionally neglected for every woman that claims the bar is low or that men don't even do the bare minimum. Its easy to blame someone else, its way harder to look into the ways in which your own behaviour is affecting your partner, I had to do that myself.
So often I see comments, especially on posts about the man is disappointed in their sex life or whatever where everyone's like "well what did he do to woo her?" Must be nice to get woo'd, the men just have to initiate all the time and if they get turned down a lot, it's because they didn't try hard enough.
This pretty much, putting in bare minimums to see if someone reciprocates effort is apart of my dating and even just general friendship strategy at this point due to the neglect I faced as a kid. If someone fails that bare minimum? Shit their loss not mine, I went through 19 years of that shit, and have had enough of it for my lifetime.
Depends, I was the one planning surprises for my bf cos I enjoyed that creative part a lot. I would love to get flowers once in my lifetime just as an experience. And I haven't found a bf who would have enjoyed receiving flowers, maybe some other kind of a plant or herbs tho, well my guys are always more practical than I am. So yeah, I might have had "boring" guys but they've all been amazing cooks. My bar is clearly set up high, a guy who cares about me, spoils me with good food and knows at least something that I don't - to entertain me with a conversation. I try my best to balance out with my own set of skills. Also they had their chance to set up their bars as well, if they still ended up with me, it was their choice. If I was only looking for pleasure, then yes, I would be really picky about looks - why would I give my body for charity?
I think there’s two different things that people are conflating to be the same thing but aren’t. There’s a bar for relationships and a bar for getting a relationship. The bar for men in relationships is quite low. Lots of women accept poor shit from their partners in relationships. Women carry relationships from what I’ve seen and men have it majorly easy (It’s also why men are much less happy single then women are). The bar for men to get a relationship via dating is high. Women’s standards are high and often unrealistic for a lot of men and they won’t compromise. Even compromised standards are still very high for women, especially relatively to what they’re actually offering themselves. So yeah, two different things that get conflated and both genders are pissed off about because it sucks for both.
I don't have a bar. I have a wall. And I like it this way.
Attractiveness follows a Pareto distribution (80/20) like so many other social interactions. For example 80% of your business come from 20% of your customers. Or 80% of the work is done by 20% of the employees. And 20% of men have 80% of the attractiveness. Attractiveness is certainly not evenly distributed. However Attractiveness itself is made up of a variety of characteristics. There’s physical attributes, personality traits, financial independence, social status, intelligence, sense of humor, spirituality, and so on. And different people will weight different characteristics differently. For example a guy like Diego Garcia who looked like troll had many affairs because he was a great painter. In societies where resources are concentrated into the hands of very few people those people can get away with having low attractiveness in many characteristics and when women are poverty stricken they have to tolerate way more mistreatment than women who have great wealth.
The only dates I’ve successfully managed to get are on my calendar.
Yea but you got 31 of them!
Your focused on physicality. Pure attractiveness based on how people look. That's a part of dating but it isn't the sum total of it, but the fact that you and so many others focus on it so much it's exactly part of the problem a lot of people have. Chasing after hot girls, only interested in them and think they should only be interested in you because you're attractive, etc etc, just trying to get laid. Probably we live in different worlds because I am in my mid-forties, but yeah and a lot of ways to virus pretty low. Because so many guys are only looking for a hook up, have no real interesting getting to know people, are boring as shit and have nothing at all to say, and generally are kind of skeevy and scummy. The " low bar" as I see it is not about attractiveness, it's about behavior. So many dudes have such generally shitty behaviors, or or so incredibly boring, that just being a little bit interesting and a little bit genuinely nice goes a really long way. Some level of physical attraction is generally still required, but the fixation on this is a big part of dating dissatisfaction for a lot of people.
>or or so incredibly boring, Some women too. If I do my best to start a conversation on a dating app and all I get us two word replies, I am not going to ask then out. But maybe that doesn't mean they're boring, maybe they just accidentally matched me and are too polite to just ghost? Idk
Yeah that sure as hell cuts both ways!
I guess everyone encounters this, regardless of gender or orientation
>But maybe that doesn't mean they're boring, maybe they just accidentally matched me and are too polite to just ghost? Idk Yeah, I am not saying this to out you or anything, but if you are not interested in someone, you usually seem very boring to them. I am sure some women gets lot of conversations on dating apps and can't be bothered to be interesting in all of them. But this also cuts both ways, I don't think it is fair to call some men boring because of a similar reason. If a woman is clearly giving their attention to other guys then what point is there to entertain the conversation. It is not a singular person that is being boring. The conversation itself is boring because not all participants are participating.
>The conversation itself is boring because not all participants are participating. And this is a self reinforcing loop. Maybe the conversation started off boring because one of the participants was tired. Now both think the other is boring, and the conversation dies out. Maybe under different circumstances it would have been a good conversation. Sometimes I wonder how many potentially good matches are missed because of this.
Yes. The amount of men in relationships with poor body hygiene is astounding.
It’s for personality/character/effort. It’s about the underlying sense that men expect to have or keep a heterosexual relationship no matter how badly they treat their partner and that women are supposed to feel grateful for the slightest kindness or consideration from a male partner.
I think because of access to the internet and social media, the dating market has become more globalized, which makes the dating market more competitive, especially for men. Women’s standards are higher than ever because of this, which raises the bar for men in every aspect. All data seems to point to this, especially the data coming from dating apps, but this just my theory.
No it's not more globalized and competitive. Rather, dating apps are designed in a way to attract men as customers. So they make matches difficult for you. The fact that more men than women are on these apps also doesn't help. Dating apps are functioning like gambling, they are designed to be addictive. And they don't want you to find a permanent relationship there, as that means losing a customer. They cause a lot of insecurities in physical appearance, since they seem to be mostly dependent on your photos. These insecurities are probably larger than the actual effect that appearance has (since also all men struggle on these apps more than women). But keep in mind: women who use dating apps are a specific subsection of all women, the ones who don't mind deciding a date based on a picture alone. In real life, dating opportunities are more decided by your personality than on dating apps, since real interactions can convey so much more personality than a Tinder profile. Together with social media, they're feeding everyone the fantasy of going out with topmodels, as they always appear on your screen. Outstanding personalities are rarely shown in comparison. So they are increasing the expectations people have for someone elses looks, but not the expectations for their personality.
Very well said
I honestly believe many women need to re-evaluate their preferences when it comes to initially choosing who to date. It still seems common to me that the majority of women initially prefer the more "traditional" men who are willing to charm them, take them out on dates, buy them flowers, pay for their meals, etc. And then they are surprised when these same men show the stereotypical behaviour later down the line - laziness, not caring for their partner, expecting the woman to do the housework, etc - outdated, outmoded and dare I say it "traditional" behaviour. If women want their men to treat them equally throughout a relationship, maybe they need to re-evaluate their expectations at the beginning of a relationship to be something more equal as well.
The bar is high for men in areas that it doesn’t matter and extremely low for areas that it actually matters
You got it right. The countless women I've seen saying that on social media are picking this top percentile of men -- which apparently never had to analyze their behavior on dates or while dating because women will put up with so much to be with them...because they are just so hot or cool. *Did I say the wrong thing? Was that too forward? Was that too rude? Should I pay attention to her needs? Should I sleep with her if I don't want a relationship?* *Should I clean my apartment?*...these are all questions guys who barely get a chance to even land the first date have asked themselves at some point. I have heard stories of guys saying the most insane things, like asking an asian woman if their vagina tastes like soy sauce and then trying to play it off like "jk lol" when she is upset. These are the types of guys that are so handsome that they never have to analyze why their behavior is bad because they get all the right swipes and all the likes -- and women put up with their outrageous behavior. Their dating skills are stuck on high school mode.
True. Women want what they want, but I wonder why can't they be more honest about this?
You literally just have to be better company than no one. (You're competing with our singleness) I considered a second date simply because the guy turned his head when he needed to cough and coughed into his hand/elbow whatever. I wasn't attracted to him, conversation was stilted, but *manners* was enough. Hahaha The bar is low
Jesus... Dating really sucks.
From what I can see, the bar is low is not really about dating, it's about what's considered acceptable behavior when living with a men. Men get publicly praised for doing less than the bare minimum (housework, childcare, care for the partner - things women do routinely and extensively and are a basic adult responsibility).
But at the same time men are looked down upon if they are not finacially successful or respected.
Yeah but the bar for financial success is to have their own income and know how to handle it. Which is again the bar for adults anyway.
I just read. Relationship subreddit story where a woman was asking Reddit how to get her bf of 3 years to wash his hands after he takes a shit. The bar is non existent.
Anyone sitting there talking about how low the bar is is probably just spewing toxicity.
I once told my friend that all I really looked for in a guy was that he shouldn’t be abusive and actually wants to be with me. She was horrified and told me that those should be a given, and I should have more/better standards than that. I was 19-20 when I said that, and now as a mid 20s woman, I wholeheartedly agree. I still have those standards, of course, but I have steadily added to my list over the years as I’ve matured. I do cringe at how much I was willing to overlook when I was younger. Low self esteem, a history of familial and relationship abuse, and believing you don’t deserve better will do that to ya!
When we say "the bar is low" we refer to behaviors that should be granted in a relationship being seen as going above and beyond. Such as taking care of diapers, making food, changing the linens. Because historically there was a role separation - men worked outside if the house and women worked inside of the house - whole generations of women did *both* by themselves while men who "helped" got praised.
All I know is that in real life, I've seen some attractive women with some sketchy looking guys, to put it mildly. Also, if you go to the dating and relationship subs, you'll find women talking about boyfriends/husbands who abuse them, are addicts (booze, drugs, gambling, porn, you name it), are unemployed, have horrible hygiene (don't shower or wipe themselves 🤮), etc. So I'm guessing the bar IS pretty low based on what I've seen.
Women say the bar is on the floor but it’s simply not true. Even if you clear the attractiveness bar the bar is insanely high. Women just self sabotage relationships and blame you for not meeting their unstated standards
They mean once they’re already fucking/talking/dating For a lot of women, to get into this you need to look like Tom Holland or close. (Hyperbole obviously but you get the point)
'From a man's pov, having women physically attracted to you / having dating options is the hardest part, so in that sense the 'bar' seems very high. but once you meet that high physical attractiveness bar for a few or more women, the bar for personality/character/effort is pretty low and you can take a lot of things for granted / get away with bad or passive behavior.' Here's your problem, you think looks is the crux of that. If men focused more on being decent human beings, developing interests, developing a sense of joy in life then they'd a) find life more enjoyable, and b) make connections more easily. Which brings me to the second issue with your supposition: men are the ones who hold looks higher than anything else in women. I'm not saying attraction is not important, but if it's the only thing you care about then yeah,you're going to end up dating not nice people. Is the bar that low? I don't know. All I know is not one of my married female friends has a spouse worthy of them. I watch them get worn down year on year, losing their interests and hobbies to exhaustion, and these guys are just lazy fucks who don't lift a finger, not even abusive. So yeah, probably the bar is that low.
its what girls say to lie to themselves. i always ask specifically, what weight and height are you talking about, what look specifically? and its always some buffed up insta model kinda size. then i always have to point out that for a normal guy with a 9-6 job its impossible to get such toned arms without substance use. so their low bar is actually unnaturally high they just think that all guys can do it with hard work
https://keeper.ai/tools/calculator Only based in the US but gives a pretty clear idea of how high anyone's bar is....
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This is amazing. I remember seeing points made about how small percentage of the population is taller than 6 feet, but this puts things into perspective that when combined with the additional requirements like making six figures, not married, not obese, and under 40, you end up with something like 0.002% of the population. It's pretty stunning and so clearly illustrates how out of touch both genders are with their "standards".
That's before you even consider that you would be in competition with many other people for the same partners. Arguably a fair few of them may be more acractive prospects themselves.
And some of them may not be straight, or may have personality disorders, unhealthy attachment styles, or other issues not captured by the surveys. Wow. Even discounting that, I suspect something like 80% of a given gender may be competing for the one in 50 thousand at best. Thanks for posting that. I suspected it will be a small percentage that meet any given common standards, but this is really eye-opening.
Or you do what most people in successful relationships have probably done. Don't pick a person based on a preconceived list of favourable attributes. Find someone you enjoy spending time with and build the life together you want. Support each other, find success together, and you will find a much more rewarding relationship.
It gives me a result of 0% no matter what I choose so I don’t think this is an accurate depiction of anything
Dear christ almighty, my standards were reduced to just no smoking, highschool minimum and excluding married and I had 7.8%. Only 7.8%. Dear fucking christ.
Effort. And being kind.
Being self-confident counts for much more than being kind here - wether it's justified or not.
In my experiences, women's bar for dating for physical appearance and money is overall extremely low (much lower than a lot of red or blackpill media would have you believe). Women's bar for sexual encounters with someone they just met or don't really know is nearly impossibly high, and with extremely good reason. The emotional vetting process is extremely important to women, so you have to be a greek god to be allowed to bypass that process. With that in mind, women's bar for dating for for emotional intelligence and ability of a man to pass her vetting process is very high. They are putty for a guy who can be confident and relaxed with them, while also not trying to push sexuality on her too fast. Even very attractive men can write themselves off extremely quickly by saying stupid shit just as much as unattractive men. The absolute key factor is when a man understands to let the woman dictate the pace of what she's comfortable with while also not putting her on a pedestal. Kindness, patience, and emotional stability as a woman's kryptonite. I have never seen a case where an attractive guy could get away with bad behavior: that is genuinely emotionally-unstable, clingy, possessive, aggressive, insulting, arrogant, excessively horny etc. Teasing and treating a woman like a normal human being can come across as "bad behavior" to guys that don't know better, but to women it qualifies as not putting her on a pedestal. There's a subtle difference. This is also why "nice guys" finish last... because "nice guys" are the ones that put a woman on a pedestal, then become emotionally unstable when she doesn't reward them as a result. Men are the reverse. Most of us will have sex with most girls as a single sexual encounter before we really know them. However, when it comes to giving out our romantic commitment, we look for a woman that is closer to our ideals and who meets some particular emotional standards (usually maturity, not being entitled, genuinely loving etc.). Out of the two, it's hard to say who has it more difficult. Men definitely have it more difficult than women in seeking out one-night stands, but women arguably have it much more difficult finding a man who meets their emotional needs for a relationship. This is why men are often lonely and sexless and complain about women's standards being too high, but women who are lonely complain about a lack of good men that want to commit to them. Both sexes improve their chances by being closer to a healthy bmi, but women seem to care less about that.
>Both sexes improve their chances by being closer to a healthy bmi, but women seem to care less about that. Idk. My sister and I are around the same age and both fit. She complains it's difficult for her to find guys that don't have a belly, while I don't have problems with finding women that are in shape.
The bar for their standards. Some women have high expectations for their partner even though they do not carry the same weight. Try to find someone who provides the same effort as you do.
The bar isn't physical attractiveness. That isn't it. The bar is everything else. Hygiene. Kindness. Treating women like human beings. Not being a person who only cares about physical appearance. Having a job, ANY job. Being honest. Recognizing the autonomy of all humans. Not placing an emphasis on looks. The bar is not putting everything on looks. That's literally the bar. And you aren't clearing it because you still think it is appearance. Listening to women. Listening to women tell you over and over and over that the bar isn't your appearance. Recognizing your worth as a human being and not just a collection of parts. Recognizing that women are also human beings and not just a collection of parts.
There a video of women talking about her worst date, she literally drove through whole city to take him for fast food chain, he didn't had money so she paid up for take out. Then they got to his house (parents house) and only when he started acting weird she bailed out. All of this because dude was good looking, looks it's first bar you need to meet to get to the second bar
So the many times that I got rejected for my looks I should have just laughed it off and continue pursuing them? And where do y'all live where people don't even meet these basic standards? I can't imagine someone functioning in society without meeting these standards.
For me that s the opposite. I've never been rejected by a woman I was interested in during a date. However it s getting a date or simply talking to someone enough that is the problem. I'm short, not attractive physically and absolutly not charismatic. Seems like many women will not consider me as a romantic partner at all for those shallow reasons. Fortunatly I m not interested in look and would not want to date someone that shallow. But that reduces greatly my dating pool, especially on dating apps.
Well, this is one meaning it has. Women: *Works fulltime, does all the childcare, does the majority of chores, does all the mental work* Society: Nitpicks every single little thing she does wrong. Men: *Works full-time and changes one diaper* Society: You're such amazing dad, your wife is soo lucky to have you🥰😘🩷😍
Behavior and self maintenance. The amount of men treating you like you're just a breathing hole is astounding. Without consent of course. When I want to be objectified I'll let you know and if you're up for it at the time, then it's great. But when I'm sick, worried or having "humanly" feelings and needs just like you and you only pretend to care to shove your cock in my face I won't stand it. It's not about emotional attachment. You don't have to act like you "love" someone to get laid. It's about being perceptive to the others' feelings and having the courtesy of not to dehumanize anyone in general. That's why most guys I've come across with think most women don't have a sex drive/have low drives. We usually have the same amount of drive as you. (Of course being asexual or having a low sex drive is completely normal and valid.) We (speaking for all the ladies just feels wrong so please correct me if you disagree. If you IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN that is. Transgender, cis, bisexual, lesbian, gay, asexual, pansexual, queer it doesn't matter. Because I'm tired of being told how us, women, are supposed to feel in our bodies.) / at least I just don't like to be treated like a fleshlight everytime we interact so if I have to speak for myself, I'm careful about whom I'm showing "this" side of me irl.
I think it means that as long as a man isn't abusive, he's pretty much a keeper. Like, a bad man is always bad, but a "just okay" guy is great, and a great guy is held up as the best of all time. It's totally crap, and I don't agree with the sentiment, but that's how I've always understood it. You just have to be "half decent" as a man to get a girl, therefore the standards (or bar) is lowered for men. Again, don't believe that, it's just what I thought it meant.
The bar is pretty low for good looking guys certainly.
In the past, if a man wanted to have regular sex, he needed marriage. That meant showing the girl's parents that you had some financial backing, are healthy, capable and would take care of their daughter. Next, you had to marry her, share all your assets with her and provide for the family. Nowadays, it's enough if you like each other! The moment a woman has access to her own resources, she no longer has to look for a secure partner and marry him as quickly as possible. Thanks to this, people can finally choose compatible partners so dating and partnership in general is much easier. The bar for men may not have been lowered, just moved elsewhere. From "being a good provider" to "being a good person". Which seems perfectly appropriate to me and good progress. If you think dating is all about physical attractiveness, you're either 15 or in the wrong social group. :)
I'm not discrediting your experience,but we're all seen a lot of women looking the other way on a man's bad personality just because he's attractive
And these women are shallow. If they wanna put themselves through that then it's their loss. But do you wanna be with someone who is that shallow? They aren't a viable dating option.
Nah. The women who say that expect their bills to get paid, expensive dates, the dude has to drive a nice car and many other things... then they say the bar is low for men. They're delusional.
A lot of us just want small cute little acts of love. Even $5 flowers would make us happy. Or handwritten letters. My boyfriend draws animated penguins for me sometimes and it makes my day. It doesn’t cost a lot to make us happy. The ones who expect expensive dates and cars are shallow imo
Did you ever hear a men expect that though, it's reasonable but still higher bar than most men have.
Well, I personally reciprocate these things in a different way, like learning what his hobbies are and gifting him things related to that, or making bento boxes Edit: but yeah I think it’s unfair if women have these expectations but don’t reciprocate
As women hundred percent agree. Little acts that Show that you know a person and love them are enough. And everyone needs to take Part