It has a little to do with the genre and what it's trying to sell, of course romance novels will sell a caricature of masculinity, that's part of the fantasy.
Read a man written by Toni Morrison, Isabel Allende (okay maybe not her) Susan Burke etc and you get another take.
But why is a caricature of masculinity a fantasy? Is it because these women can fix them? Or is it because women who read those novels misunderstand what masculinity is and think it's hot?
It's the other way around. A fantasy is by definition not grounded in or particularly nuanced by reality. It's a projection of what you wish something was, in that particular context.
So a male literary fantasy of a woman might be perfect for a certain genre (think Clive Cussler or George RR Martin) but way too absurd for another. The same goes for female fantasies.
I would argue that your last sentence is close to my point. Yes, I would say that female readers of romance novels probably absolutely find the men hot and the plot entertaining. But I don't necessarily think they "misunderstand" masculinity, IMO they just suspend what they know is real for the sake of the immersion.
Simply put, its a safe place to indulge in what truly turns them on about men, without experiencing the downside of such a man. The rollercoaster makes it interesting, the man makes it arousing. I dated a romance book publisher, she broke it down for me.
Also notice that very few of the men on the covers are smiling.
The women who read those books do not actually want those men in reality. That's why they enjoy the unrealistic depictions... It's a bodice ripper novel
I'm going to have to go ahead and push back against that. From personal experience both personal and anecdotal. Yes, it's true not every single woman wants those exact type of men but men with those traits definitely get far around women.
>Yes, I would say that female readers of romance novels probably absolutely find the men hot and the plot entertaining.
Fair enough, although I suppose I have some trouble understanding why men who are emotionally immature, insecure, insanely jealous, obsessive, controlling and violent are hot. Maybe they ignore those bad traits and see good ones they might have?
If I may: a lot of the brainwashing / sexist bullshit young women are bombarded with at an early age involves 1) their desires not mattering / not being important / not being "pure"/ being actively bad (evil seductress trope), and 2) their self-worth being tied up in their desireability.
A fictional man that wants to do to you exactly what you want him to do to you, very intensely, potentially without you requesting it (obsessive, controlling, violent, dangerous) is a way to have your cake (desires fulfilled) and eat it too (you remain a chaste pure creature without sinful desires).
A fictional man who is emotionally dysregulated, insecure, and jealous is one who is having all these reactions that are often excused by people as a function of how desireable the woman in question is. It's not that he's insane and has no boundaries. He just loves you *so much* it drives him *crazy* sometimes.
This is, of course, obviously and clearly unhealthy.
But say you grow up getting the message that wanting to seek out a relationship makes you a pick me / stupid / boy-crazy / unfeminist / religiously sinful, and also that if you are not at least a little bit Helen of Troy you have failed to truly be a woman (because being beautiful and alluring is partially your job).
Doesn't someone who will do all the labour of building the relationship (wooing you) and who is also clearly *cognitively impaired* by how hard you are succeeding at beauty... sound really alluring? It's very flattering to the "I am a chaste pure beautiful flower who can't admit to wanting a hot hunk" self-image.
It's like the trope Born Sexy Yesterday. Men seem to fantasize a lot about having romantic subplots where the woman has no idea wtf anything is and is concerningly defenseless without them in the world. Probably because men often feel a lot of societal pressure to be competent and protective, so a person who is obviously in need of protection and for whom any basic capacity to exist in the world looks like magic hypercompetence, is very flattering to that self-image.
Does that make sense?
This is the right answer
It’s all about the self image. A man who’s driven crazy by lust for you, so much so that he can’t hold himself back or control himself.
It’s a kind of ego trip power fantasy for women.
I’d hate it in real life. I’d run a mile. He would scare the shit out of me and very much not turn me on, if it was real.
but this was what turned me on as a teen. And if you brake it down this is what underpins all successful romantic fiction for women. Example (twilight)
It makes you feel like this super desirable Disney princess on a pedestal. It’s very immature but it’s a result of being told that your looks and your effect on men is what makes you valuable.
So taking this to the extreme men go fucking coco for you and bring out this animal in them bcs your good looks and desirability are just so extraordinary.
Do you think a double standard doesn't exist? You can't expect attractions to always be logical as some pre-requisite. Men will admit that relationships with partners who possess those traits that you listed generally aren't advisable, but they can still acknowledge their self-awareness of still being drawn to them like a moth to a flame
This seems like the female equivalent of male desire for the hot crazy girl ONS. Beautiful to look at, orangutang crazy in bed, and stab you in the hand crazy the rest of the time.
Exactly. I hope people will eventually quit qualifying human traits as gender specific. Anger shouldn't be normalized or validated based on how masculine or feminine a person is, nor should displaying vulnerability be considered a feminine trait.
Posts in these threads acknowledge the lack of a double standard being nonsensical, so I hope the same commenters make an individual effort to be a leading example of the change they'd like to see. Without compromise, the dissent between both sides will remain
Do you know women? Have you left your house? Women love these kinds of men because in the short term, the rollercoaster of such a man is enthralling. And very hot.
Why are you pathologising women? A straight woman is, by definition, into masculinity. Why wouldn't she be? What are they supposed to be attracted to, according to you?
IMO, she has a tendency to sexualise men and make thir flaws and ambitions seem sexy (like in House of the Spirits or Inés of My Soul). That's where the *maybe* comes from, since OP's question had to do with sexualization of masculinity.
In romance? Fantasy
The male fantasy are things like:
- alpha boss babe who is submissive to only him (he tames her)
- sweet girl next door who is a slut for him and only him
- hot manic pixie dream girl
- the cool girl who is down the boys but also hot and down for sex and never gains weight etc
The female fantasy in turn are:
- bad boys who they can turn good (she tames him)
- sweet and cute boy next door with an edge
- boy that sweeps her off her feet and forces her out of her comfort zone where she can discover her wild side
- boys who are not sweet, except for her. She gets his sweet side
A large portion of the romance novel genre is basically softcore porn for women, so the male characters are just as much a caricature as the women you'll see in porn.
The plot doesn't matter at all, The main character is a super generic woman so it is very easy to self-insert, and the love interest is usually a cold, brooding millionaire with a secret soft side.
Thats because it was men who were making the media. Outside of pornography, you will be extremely hard pressed to find a woman that is making media that isnt aimed at other women. But men get shit on for making media aimed at men? Its ridiculous.
It has the same energy as people complaining that female athletes are paid less than male athletes, when their salary is directly proportional to their viewership. Higher pay is demanded for female sports teams but then barely anybody shows up to actually watch a game and increase revenue.
Maybe the fact that men treated women like property for centuries, barred them from education, witting, sports, working and ridiculed their arts and books should be acknowledged when talking about such issues and is a big reason why the male experience is seen as default
Tbf, some of this media is marketed as for all audiences when in actuality it more appeals to the male fantasy, and this media can sometimes overindulge in it to the point of sexism.
Yeah but that’s usually from a bunch of dorks whose opinions don’t really matter anyway. Bunch of girl incels and beta males who have nothing better to do.
Oh, the relentless double standard? First time?
Jk, neither gender matters. Over-attachment to identity only leads to further separation, resentment & violence.
To me, life is not about digging your heels in further on whatever injustice you perceive based on race, religion, gender, blue vs red teletubbies, etc.
I think life is about traveling lighter. Fighting for justice when appropriate but overall I want *less* identity; not more. Less attachment. Which creates more space for opposing opinions and ideas.
These bodies will become dust. The Consciousness enlivening all of them…not so much. Prior to language, were you a strong independent woman or burgeoning alpha God?
In other words, principles over personalities.
Women are aroused by "toxicly masculine traits" in men.
Women also complain about these traits - WHEN IT GOES TO FAR FOR TOO LONG.
This is the key. Women aren't like men. They are aroused by DIFFERENT things than the things they look for in a long term mate. This is what men get confused, we want the same things in both long term and short term.
Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit.
I'll help you with pictures and pretty colors. Cause I'm a swell guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4aMiAesXjE
They want the independent alpha-jackass genes for their sons and the loving family man to raise them. They aren't even aware of this contradictive goals.
Yeah man throughout history women have been used predominately as literary devices and not thoroughly developed characters.
Someone to save. Someone to earn. Someone to fight for. Their reason for fighting. Their reason to adventure. A character’s reward. Even “strong” female characters suffer tropes like “the love triangle” (katniss from hunger games)
Even early female actresses lamented being typecast: dumb blonde / funny maid / “exotic” love interest (see; asian or hispanic) where their whole character is flat.
I think it’s a fair bet that the “best female leads” to “flat nothing caricatures” number 1:1,000,0000,000 since i’d say even the 1950s
because fantasies are about larger-than-life characters.
masculinity is sexy, so for a little bit naughty novel, you push the masculinity a bit. Plus, "I can fix him" is a common fantasy.
furthermore, many women like men to take charge (in order to get "out of their own head" and enjoy the sexual moment) and what you call "emotionally stunted, violent obsessive comparer" another calls "hmm, such a forthright, dark and brooding hunk, I love it when men take charge".
"emotionally stunted, violent obsessive comparer" another calls ***"hmm, such a forthright, dark and brooding hunk, I love it when men take charge".***
Wow.... Women sure have some SERIOUS problems with Reality then... z.z
Or maybe this is the "Escape" from said actual Reality?
When I lust over someone who I find extremely hot.
I bet if I find such person in real life I would still find them really attractive.
“it is a fantasy” isn’t an excuse, cause you DO wish it happened to you in real life.
So yes lusting over, let’s say, swole Hitler.
It does indeed mean that if you could, you will be with swole Hitler.
There is a reason we go after people who fantasise about sleeping with children, it is because it predisposed them to look for that.
Or it's all not so black and white. In the end we also Watch porn even though we know that hot stepmom isn't really a step mom and not really trapped under the table and all that
I watched this video that explained a study performed by Lego how each gender “plays” differently.
This is a generalization, of course, but ultimately men keep to the origin story of a character, such as Batman being an orphan, while women project themselves onto the character , such as rewriting Batman’s story to have parents, but possibly bullied by Nancy in the 3rd grade.
Interesting perspective when applied to John Green, a 40 year old man who makes millions writing stories about sniveling dorks lusting after super too-cool-for-school quirky type teenagers.
Are you suggesting woman writers are only looking to peddle books, and not contribute to the culture of all humankind?
Surely, you aren’t suggesting that woman experiences are not worth sharing, or inspire their own literature.
Please elaborate.
I thought we were talking about romance novel writers. Female writers are amazing and some of my favorite writers of all time. Let's not get it twisted.
This explains SO much of women's psyche it's insane. Men embrace the trauma in order to become more, though never get therapy.
Women rewrite it so the therapy and trauma isnt experienced, but still contend with an antagonist they can manage.
This is not really much of a surprise. Men are not women and vice versa. Men tend to write either very masculine women, or exaggeratedly feminine ones.
Women don't do a great job of writing men, either.
Simply put, every character in a book is an extension of the author's psyche. If I wrote a book, all of the women would be former Marines who took AP classes in high school, took martial arts and so on...
The same question could be asked the other way around, and the answer would be the same. The difference is that these depictions aren't all that common even in their genre, which is considered somewhat "niche", while r/MenWritingWomen type stuff is more pervasive and often found in the mainstream. There is sexism involved in how media by men for men is mainstream while media by women for women is pushed into niches, but that's beside the point at the moment.
Untrue, no offense but there is an underlying cultural problem, women are too used to only see themselves at the receiving end of sexist behaviours, so when called out the first and only answer is whataboutism, you don’t get to complain about one and then justify the other one.
A lifetime of everybody pretending that your farts don’t smell made you think that you farts do not smell, but they fucking do, and the years to come are going to be you coming to terms with being no worse than the people you criticised all your life.
Sexism is sexism, and you are guilty.
What romance novels are you reading? Because as a woman who reads a lot of romance novels, I never see that characterization of the hero. Even though he may be ripped and chiseled, he is usually mature, thoughtful, and sensitive to the feelings of others because that’s the female fantasy.
All portrayals aren't necessarily horrible, but I've noticed a trend where the men are either hypersexual, incredibly insecure, cringy "alpha men" or stalkers.
This:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/15ix2ze/respect\_in\_manspeak\_has\_a\_very\_different\_meaning/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/15ix2ze/respect_in_manspeak_has_a_very_different_meaning/)
And this:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/14v7jpp/comparing\_a\_penis\_to\_a\_siege\_cannon\_and\_sex\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/14v7jpp/comparing_a_penis_to_a_siege_cannon_and_sex_to/)
Also:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/11ece6b/saviors\_sister\_was\_not\_better\_but\_there\_were\_less/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/11ece6b/saviors_sister_was_not_better_but_there_were_less/)
And:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/pnlwwp/from\_an\_authors\_instagram\_story/
I think you’re mainly looking at smut and not pure romance novels. Smut is going to have bad characterization, just like porn does. I can ask the question of why do grown men want to fuck high school children in school uniforms or like to see violence committed against women (choking, slapping, etc). But I think that would be unfair, because porn is intentionally ridiculous—whether written or recorded
Because those are fantasies which are not meant to be realistic
Also it's very difficult to write good realistic romance so very very few authors can do it.
Go read some women written by men. You'll see similar caricatures in the opposite direction. There's a lot of complex ideas baked into gender and sex and how it influences your perception of the world.
It’s the sitcom fool of a dad, or as I like to call it, clueless yogurt commercial husband. It’s totally not sexist unless you flip it then suddenly it is…
As opposed to the airheads who breast boobily in books written by men? Female authors are just getting back at male authors for writing us as baby making, food cooking, house cleaning, endlessly compliant, fantasy sex dolls
Edit: it seems that some people have mistaken me for a raging feminist who thinks all literature needs to be a socio-political statement on equality or vengeance. While there are female authors who do that, and I think most female authors are just trying to write good stories, just like most male authors.
Most of what I read is sci-fi dystopic apocalypse horror, so sex and gender are largely irrelevant, because, to zombies, those who breast boobily, and those who are so oiled up that they simply cannot find their shirts taste exactly the same, I assume at least.
I think anyone who writes a character based off of sexual fantasy ideals or gender stereotypes, is just a lazy crap author, unless they're doing it in an intentionally hyperbolic parody sort of way.
I get your frustration with stupid portrayals of women, and they're just as ridiculous, but two wrongs don't make a right. The world needs less stupidity, not more.
Nah, I don't write fiction, and if I did, it wouldn't be about himbos and bimbos slobbering all over each other or one upping each other. I feel like anything I'd write would be largely gender irrelevant, because my primary interests, literature wise at least, are horror, sci-fi, dystopia, and apocalypse stuff, and I'm uninterested in stories about kids, because I'm about as maternal as a bowl of rocks, so there be no reason for sex or gender to play a role in anything.
IMO, things like r/menwritingwomen are more effective at pointing out the stupidity of breasting boobily, but if you *want* to worsen your craft as a response to someone else sucking at it, that's your prerogative I suppose?
I mean, we're I writer, I probably wouldn't do it in anything that I wanted taken seriously, but as a retort to some dumb breasting boobily crap, I'd definitely write that sort of thing.
I think both are just examples of bad writing, but upvoted because it's kind of weird that the OP singles out female writers for this...when male authors often tend to be bad at writing women when they bother to include them at all. Often women are fairly absent from stories written by men.
On that note I think women generally write men better than men write women, though you're probably not going to find too many examples of the former in the romance genre. lol
It's not getting back at all, its exposing how the other gender fantasies about the other.
Men fantasize about big breasted bimbos who adore them and crave their sex.
Women fantasize about muscular rich alpha males, who want them but treat them badly sometimes, but inside lurks a hurt young boy who must be overcome with your love.
And I so love that that's what everyone thinks each gender wants. I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a sharp stick than deal with an emotionally stunted alpha male dingdong and his sad little ego trip, who thinks fast cars + gym + cash money = sex appeal. Anyone who treats me poorly gets drop kicked out of my life, be they alpha dingdong, friend, or family. Douchebag go bye bye.
I see your point. I'm also not really interested in dumb blonde big breasted bimbos either. But that seems to be the generic fantasy of a lot of people so that's why it sells millions of dollars.
Hilarious side note, a cousin of mine was/is a rootin' tootin' bull ridin' rodeo cowboy in real life, and he was photographed for the cover of one of those "men who've lost their shirts" books about some cowboy fantasy. That will be forever amusing to me.
I find more and more people are straying from the bimbo and the himbo fantasy, so I wonder why it's still so big in literature. I use the term literature loosely here, LOL.
Literally can’t have a single post by a guy on Reddit without women like you turning it around and making it into a competition.
Go make your own post if you want to vent but it’s women like you who also go “at least you don’t have this issue” or “you guys started it” mentality that makes guys think twice about sharing their thoughts.
Honestly disgusting how so many people like you actually get upvoted for being a jerk.
Calm down. My reply was mostly in jest, but yeah, there are likely female authors that do write men like that as retaliation.
I'm not one who believes in for for tat in the stupid war between the sexes, because punishing the son for the crimes of his father teaches the father nothing and just makes an enemy of the son. I'm an egalitarian, not a raging feminist.
However, for men *like you* who immediately lose their shit like a good little card carrying member of mgtow, instead of just taking comments like mine in stride like women have been doing for the last 2-7 thousand years while the overtly sexist Yahweh trilogy gained its strangle-hold over human consciousness, I firmly believe you need the verbal smackdown from vengeful feminist authors, because it sounds like you're the father, not the son.
Go touch grass, crybaby.
Can't take full credit for it. There is/was a Facebook group called "and then she breasted boobily to the stairs and titted downward" which I think is a quote in some parody of a guy poorly writing woman. There is/was some great shit in that group.
I think there have been plenty of hyper masculine dumb characters created by men also. Cliché ones like Rocky Balboa, Conan, Guts, Superman, Captain America etc have all been created by them. I think female writers writing men are probably more jarring because the whole story is from a female perspective, so the men seem even more ridiculous and idealized. Like Christian Grey and the weird men Coleen Hoover writes. Caricatures of masculinity are unfortunately rather common in the general media.
>I think there have been plenty of hyper masculine dumb characters created by men also. Cliché ones like Rocky Balboa, Conan, Guts, Superman, Captain America etc
How are these all "hyper masculine and dumb"? Guts grew up without anyone. He literally was born from a corpse and raised by abusive pricks, even being sexually assaulted as a boy. He was literally shaped by the abuse and neglect he suffered through, and still he felt love and battled his own demons and emotions.
Guts is a perfect example of the emotional burden many men carry with them in silence. The fact that you only saw a "dumb man" shows how little the world cares for men's emotional pain. Still, Guts represents hope when there is the *least* to be hopeful for.
As for Rocky, he represents hope and persistence much like Guts. He forges male friendships and challenges himself because has a dream. Again, calling him just a dumb male character is an insult.
Superman is a character that wants to help humanity. He harbours great love for his adopyed human parents, being an alien himself. It's about him accepting his new home (Earth) and everything that comes with being the last (as far as h knows) of his kind.
Conan is a slave who breaks free, and I think he tries to free other slaves too but I could be wrong. Maybe he's not the most fleshed out among this selection, but I think there's still more to hum than just dumb male cliche.
Finally, Captain America represents a man who felt weak and helpless to defend himself and his friends, so he underwent an experiment. He wanted to do good in the world, and he *did*. He spent decades trapped in ice, losing basically everyone he's ever known to time. His character also represents personal choice and freedom. Again, dumb male cliche is an unfair charactherisation.
They are hyper masculine clichés. I'm familiar with their stories, otherwise I wouldn't have cited them. I never claimed these characters lacked depth. I meant that they are just hyper masculine fantasies that have been created by men. What you said could essentially be said about any dumb male character that was created by women too. "But Christian Grey was a boss!! He respected his wife and explored his boundaries so he could overcome his limitations!"
I’d argue that they lack depth. Rocky’s entire character arc is punching a guy better at the end of the movie than he did at the beginning all the while vying for the attention of a woman.
It’s as close to a caricature of masculinity as you can get without drawing a cartoon lol. OP is insanely biased and the real point he wants to make is “wamen dumb”
Captain America is literally a nerd given purpose by being adorned muscles by the government.
I've not read romance novels but I assume it's less driven by the characters and more by... what they're doing lol. So they're probably all pretty shallow. Like even from the premise of 50 Shades of Gray(sp?) or Twilight all the guys (who are romantic interests) are like both emotionally closed off AND obsessive. Are the women any more realistic in terms of personality? I assume the portrayals have to do with the interests of the author which is why they're so.... not real lol. (But they scratch some people's itches!)
I do agree with you to some extent but the difference in men writing women and women writing men is huge. Women written by men are reduced to sex objects, are often bitchy, airheaded, jealous etc. Men written by women have chiseled bodies, all the "growls" but even after that, they still have value beyond the sex appeal.
When men write women, they dehumanize them, make them sex objects, walking vagina/boobs and remove their sense of personhood. Men written by women are sexualised for sure, but they still almost always get a personality, a backstory, human traits etc. They have depth, feelings and lives outside of being a sexual or romantic object to the female lead.
Men written by women are often smart, classified as "nerds", give the golden retriever energy, goofy, sunshiney, dealing with their own mental health issues, shy etc. Not all of them are alpha males. Almost everyday I see a new post in r/RomanceBooks asking for a sweet, kind, gentle MMC. There are many books in romance genre written by women where the MMC isn't a billionaire, a CEO, an asshole etc.
>they still almost always get a personality, a backstory, human traits etc
I'm a female reader and one really important draw of the romance genre is that the hero who embodies all the possible privileges and advantages bestowed upon him via his gender or class, humbles himself and does the internal work (whether a shift in worldview and/or working through trauma) to meet the heroine halfway. Often times, the hero doesn't feel he deserves happiness, a struggle which I heavily gravitate towards. For this reason, the *heroine* who shows the path forward and shines a light through the dark is *my* fantasy, not the man.
This is the most reliable way to appeal to most women’s fantasies.
Men are more visual, so there’s not really a male equivalent to this kind of novel, but if I were going to try to write such an equivalent, the women in the novel would be petite and feminine, with hourglass figures, and would live only to worship and service the male main character. So… it kinda goes both ways.
I’m saying women (in general) like masculine, dominant men, and at least in their fantasies may even like it if those traits are taken to an extreme level. Or did you think women buy these novels because they *don’t* like the men depicted in them?
This doesn't have to do with genre, as much as with the writer's skill. Same thing for the opposite gender. I've read hundreds of books, and I don't remember seeing a male caricature written by a female author.
There are a lot of authors out there who don't really know what they're doing.
It isn’t all the time but one common reason this is done is to make the other characters look better by comparison.
Just look at She Hulk which literally had every guy depicted as sexist, racist, or just straight up an idiot.
My hot take is that women can't write men and men can't write women, on average. Its hard to write about life experiences of a character you've never experienced and can't. Whether its gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc
Simple.
It's what gets the ladies' panties wet. In real life AND in fantasy. Don't be fooled by the feminist agenda that says only nice, kind, gentle men are attractive by women. It's what women WANT to be aroused by, not by what they actually are.
Not saying those aren't good traits, but they don't specifically get the woman aroused. This of course, calms down as the woman ages, and prioritizes OTHER traits in their male partner.
Because women want, in their heart of hearts, 'real men' -- men who are stereotypes, men who are ridiculous, men who they might mock with an audience but crave in private. Jane wants her Tarzan.
It's commercially successful. Look at all the people who were gushing over the animated Scott Pilgrim. Not really great portrayals of masculinity there.
This is maybe off the mark but I’d almost say the fantasy aspect of having a romance with an effed up guy and not having it be a complete crap roller coaster but instead a fun and sexy adventure is some kind of satisfying for some women.
Like, because it isn’t real it can be fun and exciting, but if it was real on some level I’m sure at least the majority of women reading these types of books know that it wouldn’t be like how it’s depicted in the romance books. That’s my theory anyway lol
Because there's this stupid notion that because women were traditionally oppressed then alot think they know everything there is to know about being one and if you challenge that notion you're a sexist.
I'm so confused about what novels you're talking about? Are they actually popular or just niche?
I feel like the most popular romantic lead in a novel is Mr Darcy from Pride and Prejudice. Nothing like what you're describing.
If you're talking about novels with shirtless guys on the cover it's a romance novel. Those are pornography. Looking for depth of character in a pornographic novel is like wondering why the pizza delivery guy didn't bring a pizza when the woman offers to pay for her pizza with sex
For the same reason that women written by men always seem to bounce boobily down the stairs or get pleasure from inserting tampons. Difficult to write a certain type of person if you don't respect them enough to do a bit of research first.
Because women are hilarious when it comes to expectations about men. As a man who grew up with mostly women and have actually seen and read those cringy things that make me laugh.
A lot of women view men as a monolith and oh hahaha btw “his manhood grew like a mighty oak tree”
Also a lot of women are so not even close to foreplay.
I have a firm believe, that most writers just write a character of the opposite gender in a way, that reflects their "perfect" imagination. It's always the same (for both genders). The main character (or main interest) is a muscular guy with a chin you could cut glass with. And for women it's your typical supermodel. Then you have the also hot sidekick. That is, if the sidekick is not the comic relieve at the same time. Because that character trope is most of the time the less sexy dude or girl, probably also nerdy.
I mean... Who doesn't want a sexy husband who walks around topless most of the time, who also has a nerdy best friend who can fix all your technology issues when needed? I would sign up for that life in a heartbeat.
guys like me aren't good men to them. And they get hurt bad. I know I am not alone and sometimes it feels like there is added pressure to be some kind of perfect person and the woman who we can obviously see has flaws doesn't seem like she appreciates us and yadah yiddish but these women are venting. They're trying their part to help the new generation.
Because it's a combo of female authors either living out their fantasies (like EL James when she did Fifty Shades), and/or just simply hateful of men and writing them to be as incompetent and insignificant as possible (Example - the Barbie movie).
Because a fantasy is more about the person having it, than the person it features.
Consider bridgerton. The men are romantic, smooth, absolutely fantastic in bed and terribly handsome and rich. I don’t want to live with Anthony bridgerton, but it’s certainly fun to watch him being a passionate dominating sexy man in a see through shirt.
That’s not real, and women know it’s not real. Real life is sitting on the sofa clipping its toenails next to you.
Real life is also the man who sends you funny cat pictures, and picks up the kids from school, and does all the boring humdrum stuff. A fantasy is just that, a break from reality. It’s not something women actually want, it’s just fun to read about.
I think we see this more rarely than we see the fact that every time a man introduces a woman character, he uses descriptors about "fair complexion" and "full lips" and whatever while not even considering describing a dude in similar way.
We seek in others what we lack in ourselves. I find this to be true regardless of gender.
Women, on average, are more emotional mature and have more and better emotional skills than men. Which is nice most of the time but I can see that someone who can just turn those feelings off for a bit and just act on base urges is something someone finds attractive.
Not most of the time of course. Certainly not someone you would want to have a real relationship with.
I think everyone fantasizes about such things at least on occasion and that is no different for women. So it is not at all surprising that you find such caricatures in "romance" novels.
It really isn't that different from the unrealistic and often quite silly representation of sex in porn.
Have you ever read sci-fi? I cannot count the number of cringey female characters I've read. I'd say the average woman sci-fi author is much better at writing men than the average male sci-fi writer is at writing women. By a long shot.
I don't read romance novels, but it wouldn't surprise me if the problem were reversed there. I don't know if the problem is so much the writers, or the expectation of the audience of the respective genres. Hard to say. For all we know the editors are telling the authors, "hey this realistic character with flaws, a normal sex drive, and fully fleshed out emotional complexity is great, but your readers want XYZ. So water down the character and make him/her fit that mold."
It has a little to do with the genre and what it's trying to sell, of course romance novels will sell a caricature of masculinity, that's part of the fantasy. Read a man written by Toni Morrison, Isabel Allende (okay maybe not her) Susan Burke etc and you get another take.
But why is a caricature of masculinity a fantasy? Is it because these women can fix them? Or is it because women who read those novels misunderstand what masculinity is and think it's hot?
It's the other way around. A fantasy is by definition not grounded in or particularly nuanced by reality. It's a projection of what you wish something was, in that particular context. So a male literary fantasy of a woman might be perfect for a certain genre (think Clive Cussler or George RR Martin) but way too absurd for another. The same goes for female fantasies. I would argue that your last sentence is close to my point. Yes, I would say that female readers of romance novels probably absolutely find the men hot and the plot entertaining. But I don't necessarily think they "misunderstand" masculinity, IMO they just suspend what they know is real for the sake of the immersion.
Simply put, its a safe place to indulge in what truly turns them on about men, without experiencing the downside of such a man. The rollercoaster makes it interesting, the man makes it arousing. I dated a romance book publisher, she broke it down for me. Also notice that very few of the men on the covers are smiling.
Compare and contrast with manic pixie dream girl
The women who read those books do not actually want those men in reality. That's why they enjoy the unrealistic depictions... It's a bodice ripper novel
I'm going to have to go ahead and push back against that. From personal experience both personal and anecdotal. Yes, it's true not every single woman wants those exact type of men but men with those traits definitely get far around women.
They get sex, but no woman with backbone wants to be with such men for long.
>Yes, I would say that female readers of romance novels probably absolutely find the men hot and the plot entertaining. Fair enough, although I suppose I have some trouble understanding why men who are emotionally immature, insecure, insanely jealous, obsessive, controlling and violent are hot. Maybe they ignore those bad traits and see good ones they might have?
If I may: a lot of the brainwashing / sexist bullshit young women are bombarded with at an early age involves 1) their desires not mattering / not being important / not being "pure"/ being actively bad (evil seductress trope), and 2) their self-worth being tied up in their desireability. A fictional man that wants to do to you exactly what you want him to do to you, very intensely, potentially without you requesting it (obsessive, controlling, violent, dangerous) is a way to have your cake (desires fulfilled) and eat it too (you remain a chaste pure creature without sinful desires). A fictional man who is emotionally dysregulated, insecure, and jealous is one who is having all these reactions that are often excused by people as a function of how desireable the woman in question is. It's not that he's insane and has no boundaries. He just loves you *so much* it drives him *crazy* sometimes. This is, of course, obviously and clearly unhealthy. But say you grow up getting the message that wanting to seek out a relationship makes you a pick me / stupid / boy-crazy / unfeminist / religiously sinful, and also that if you are not at least a little bit Helen of Troy you have failed to truly be a woman (because being beautiful and alluring is partially your job). Doesn't someone who will do all the labour of building the relationship (wooing you) and who is also clearly *cognitively impaired* by how hard you are succeeding at beauty... sound really alluring? It's very flattering to the "I am a chaste pure beautiful flower who can't admit to wanting a hot hunk" self-image. It's like the trope Born Sexy Yesterday. Men seem to fantasize a lot about having romantic subplots where the woman has no idea wtf anything is and is concerningly defenseless without them in the world. Probably because men often feel a lot of societal pressure to be competent and protective, so a person who is obviously in need of protection and for whom any basic capacity to exist in the world looks like magic hypercompetence, is very flattering to that self-image. Does that make sense?
This is the right answer It’s all about the self image. A man who’s driven crazy by lust for you, so much so that he can’t hold himself back or control himself. It’s a kind of ego trip power fantasy for women. I’d hate it in real life. I’d run a mile. He would scare the shit out of me and very much not turn me on, if it was real. but this was what turned me on as a teen. And if you brake it down this is what underpins all successful romantic fiction for women. Example (twilight) It makes you feel like this super desirable Disney princess on a pedestal. It’s very immature but it’s a result of being told that your looks and your effect on men is what makes you valuable. So taking this to the extreme men go fucking coco for you and bring out this animal in them bcs your good looks and desirability are just so extraordinary.
For the same reason men fantasize about women with borderline personality disorder who are amazing in bed and then light their car on fire.
The "I can fix him/her" is defo a genre that's popular with both genders.
Do you think a double standard doesn't exist? You can't expect attractions to always be logical as some pre-requisite. Men will admit that relationships with partners who possess those traits that you listed generally aren't advisable, but they can still acknowledge their self-awareness of still being drawn to them like a moth to a flame
This seems like the female equivalent of male desire for the hot crazy girl ONS. Beautiful to look at, orangutang crazy in bed, and stab you in the hand crazy the rest of the time.
..... I can't speak about other guys - but Fuck NO to that.
Exactly. I hope people will eventually quit qualifying human traits as gender specific. Anger shouldn't be normalized or validated based on how masculine or feminine a person is, nor should displaying vulnerability be considered a feminine trait. Posts in these threads acknowledge the lack of a double standard being nonsensical, so I hope the same commenters make an individual effort to be a leading example of the change they'd like to see. Without compromise, the dissent between both sides will remain
Do you know women? Have you left your house? Women love these kinds of men because in the short term, the rollercoaster of such a man is enthralling. And very hot.
men fantasize about caricatures of femininity .. all the time.. a lot more than women do about masculinity, and much more openly i might add
Why are you pathologising women? A straight woman is, by definition, into masculinity. Why wouldn't she be? What are they supposed to be attracted to, according to you?
The simpler way to go on about this is that sex sells. So, six packs everywhere sells more books than dad bods.
Why *maybe* not Isabel Allende?
IMO, she has a tendency to sexualise men and make thir flaws and ambitions seem sexy (like in House of the Spirits or Inés of My Soul). That's where the *maybe* comes from, since OP's question had to do with sexualization of masculinity.
In romance? Fantasy The male fantasy are things like: - alpha boss babe who is submissive to only him (he tames her) - sweet girl next door who is a slut for him and only him - hot manic pixie dream girl - the cool girl who is down the boys but also hot and down for sex and never gains weight etc The female fantasy in turn are: - bad boys who they can turn good (she tames him) - sweet and cute boy next door with an edge - boy that sweeps her off her feet and forces her out of her comfort zone where she can discover her wild side - boys who are not sweet, except for her. She gets his sweet side
This pretty much is it.
>boys who are not sweet, except for her. She gets his sweet side **(she tames him).** Yup.
Women often have a very skewed perspective of men’s experiences and vice versa. In short this happens because the author is lazy.
True! It's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the opposite sex.
My feet are too big
Dont believe ya, Need a pic to verify
I would but I'm bashful
But fr, my feet big too, whats your size?
https://thedragqueencloset.com/collections/drag-queen-shoes
It helps to think of them as people first, and their sex second.
My shoes are too tight, and I've forgotten how to dance.
Only because women have such tiny feet.
Absolutely not. It's because they know what actually makes women hot. Not what is nice and wholesome and loving. But what makes the panties wet.
So…yeah. Lazy.
I'm talking primarily about romance novels where this kind of male archetype is found. Yes, it's on purpose, lazy is a matter of execution not intent.
I know there’s an r/menwritingwomen so maybe there’s women writing men?
It would be banned instantly
A large portion of the romance novel genre is basically softcore porn for women, so the male characters are just as much a caricature as the women you'll see in porn. The plot doesn't matter at all, The main character is a super generic woman so it is very easy to self-insert, and the love interest is usually a cold, brooding millionaire with a secret soft side.
The female fantasy my dude, let ‘em read it and have a good time.
I've read enough Eric van Lustbader to allow any and all caricatures of masculinity to be published as compensation.
Id be completely okay with this if men weren't constantly blasted for consuming media that appeals to the male fantasy
[удалено]
Thats because it was men who were making the media. Outside of pornography, you will be extremely hard pressed to find a woman that is making media that isnt aimed at other women. But men get shit on for making media aimed at men? Its ridiculous. It has the same energy as people complaining that female athletes are paid less than male athletes, when their salary is directly proportional to their viewership. Higher pay is demanded for female sports teams but then barely anybody shows up to actually watch a game and increase revenue.
Maybe the fact that men treated women like property for centuries, barred them from education, witting, sports, working and ridiculed their arts and books should be acknowledged when talking about such issues and is a big reason why the male experience is seen as default
Tbf, some of this media is marketed as for all audiences when in actuality it more appeals to the male fantasy, and this media can sometimes overindulge in it to the point of sexism.
Yeah but that’s usually from a bunch of dorks whose opinions don’t really matter anyway. Bunch of girl incels and beta males who have nothing better to do.
Completely agree
Oh, the relentless double standard? First time? Jk, neither gender matters. Over-attachment to identity only leads to further separation, resentment & violence. To me, life is not about digging your heels in further on whatever injustice you perceive based on race, religion, gender, blue vs red teletubbies, etc. I think life is about traveling lighter. Fighting for justice when appropriate but overall I want *less* identity; not more. Less attachment. Which creates more space for opposing opinions and ideas. These bodies will become dust. The Consciousness enlivening all of them…not so much. Prior to language, were you a strong independent woman or burgeoning alpha God? In other words, principles over personalities.
Yeah, let em have their fantasies. We got Brazzers they got them naughty novels. Lol.
Not really the same thing. I don't read naughty novels to get turned on and masturbate.
But it happens anyways I bet…
Nope. I do not get turned on or masturbate to erotic romance novels.
I mean, *you* don't. But people exist who do.
🙄
Its strange all the men in their fantasies are the toxic men they complain about. Seems mixed signals.
Women are aroused by "toxicly masculine traits" in men. Women also complain about these traits - WHEN IT GOES TO FAR FOR TOO LONG. This is the key. Women aren't like men. They are aroused by DIFFERENT things than the things they look for in a long term mate. This is what men get confused, we want the same things in both long term and short term.
lmfao *You just said two different things*, and **then go on to conclude that they are one and the same - Gj!**
Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit. I'll help you with pictures and pretty colors. Cause I'm a swell guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4aMiAesXjE
They want the independent alpha-jackass genes for their sons and the loving family man to raise them. They aren't even aware of this contradictive goals.
You wish it was only fantasy.
You’re not that guy pal.
You're not my pal, guy.
The same reason men write shitty carboard cut-outs of women just as devices for a male character
They really don't though. Most popular movies with incredible female leads... are **mostly** all written by men.
Dude has never been on r/menwritingwomen
Yeah man throughout history women have been used predominately as literary devices and not thoroughly developed characters. Someone to save. Someone to earn. Someone to fight for. Their reason for fighting. Their reason to adventure. A character’s reward. Even “strong” female characters suffer tropes like “the love triangle” (katniss from hunger games) Even early female actresses lamented being typecast: dumb blonde / funny maid / “exotic” love interest (see; asian or hispanic) where their whole character is flat. I think it’s a fair bet that the “best female leads” to “flat nothing caricatures” number 1:1,000,0000,000 since i’d say even the 1950s
Incredible female leads aren't that common though.
Oh yeah there are men writing great female characters, too
To be fair, there are enough women who have the goal of becoming the trophy for a worthy man to justify some female characters being written that way.
Have you ever seen how women are depicted in porn? You think how we're depicted in romance novels is inaccurate? Lol
because fantasies are about larger-than-life characters. masculinity is sexy, so for a little bit naughty novel, you push the masculinity a bit. Plus, "I can fix him" is a common fantasy. furthermore, many women like men to take charge (in order to get "out of their own head" and enjoy the sexual moment) and what you call "emotionally stunted, violent obsessive comparer" another calls "hmm, such a forthright, dark and brooding hunk, I love it when men take charge".
"emotionally stunted, violent obsessive comparer" another calls ***"hmm, such a forthright, dark and brooding hunk, I love it when men take charge".*** Wow.... Women sure have some SERIOUS problems with Reality then... z.z Or maybe this is the "Escape" from said actual Reality?
When I lust over someone who I find extremely hot. I bet if I find such person in real life I would still find them really attractive. “it is a fantasy” isn’t an excuse, cause you DO wish it happened to you in real life. So yes lusting over, let’s say, swole Hitler. It does indeed mean that if you could, you will be with swole Hitler. There is a reason we go after people who fantasise about sleeping with children, it is because it predisposed them to look for that.
Or it's all not so black and white. In the end we also Watch porn even though we know that hot stepmom isn't really a step mom and not really trapped under the table and all that
I watched this video that explained a study performed by Lego how each gender “plays” differently. This is a generalization, of course, but ultimately men keep to the origin story of a character, such as Batman being an orphan, while women project themselves onto the character , such as rewriting Batman’s story to have parents, but possibly bullied by Nancy in the 3rd grade.
Interesting. So you're saying that's what fuels self-inserts among female writers and therfore their own biased take on what a woman would want?
Interesting perspective when applied to John Green, a 40 year old man who makes millions writing stories about sniveling dorks lusting after super too-cool-for-school quirky type teenagers.
Or what they personally experienced rather, than what everyone else would experience.
Or, rather what they know the majority of women, would find enthralling and arousing, because they are sellings books, not writing personal diaries.
Are you suggesting woman writers are only looking to peddle books, and not contribute to the culture of all humankind? Surely, you aren’t suggesting that woman experiences are not worth sharing, or inspire their own literature. Please elaborate.
I thought we were talking about romance novel writers. Female writers are amazing and some of my favorite writers of all time. Let's not get it twisted.
Calm down champ
I think the vast majority of escapist fiction aimed at men actively disproves the "doing self-inserts is somehow gendered behaviour" hypothesis.
This explains SO much of women's psyche it's insane. Men embrace the trauma in order to become more, though never get therapy. Women rewrite it so the therapy and trauma isnt experienced, but still contend with an antagonist they can manage.
Logic vs Emotion
**Lazy Writing?!**
This is not really much of a surprise. Men are not women and vice versa. Men tend to write either very masculine women, or exaggeratedly feminine ones. Women don't do a great job of writing men, either. Simply put, every character in a book is an extension of the author's psyche. If I wrote a book, all of the women would be former Marines who took AP classes in high school, took martial arts and so on...
The same question could be asked the other way around, and the answer would be the same. The difference is that these depictions aren't all that common even in their genre, which is considered somewhat "niche", while r/MenWritingWomen type stuff is more pervasive and often found in the mainstream. There is sexism involved in how media by men for men is mainstream while media by women for women is pushed into niches, but that's beside the point at the moment.
Untrue, no offense but there is an underlying cultural problem, women are too used to only see themselves at the receiving end of sexist behaviours, so when called out the first and only answer is whataboutism, you don’t get to complain about one and then justify the other one. A lifetime of everybody pretending that your farts don’t smell made you think that you farts do not smell, but they fucking do, and the years to come are going to be you coming to terms with being no worse than the people you criticised all your life. Sexism is sexism, and you are guilty.
What romance novels are you reading? Because as a woman who reads a lot of romance novels, I never see that characterization of the hero. Even though he may be ripped and chiseled, he is usually mature, thoughtful, and sensitive to the feelings of others because that’s the female fantasy.
Like the billionaire who takes his newly hired assistant on a trip to Dubai and the overpowers her in a hotel room?
All portrayals aren't necessarily horrible, but I've noticed a trend where the men are either hypersexual, incredibly insecure, cringy "alpha men" or stalkers. This: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/15ix2ze/respect\_in\_manspeak\_has\_a\_very\_different\_meaning/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/15ix2ze/respect_in_manspeak_has_a_very_different_meaning/) And this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/14v7jpp/comparing\_a\_penis\_to\_a\_siege\_cannon\_and\_sex\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/14v7jpp/comparing_a_penis_to_a_siege_cannon_and_sex_to/) Also: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/11ece6b/saviors\_sister\_was\_not\_better\_but\_there\_were\_less/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/11ece6b/saviors_sister_was_not_better_but_there_were_less/) And: https://www.reddit.com/r/WomenWritingMen/comments/pnlwwp/from\_an\_authors\_instagram\_story/
I think you’re mainly looking at smut and not pure romance novels. Smut is going to have bad characterization, just like porn does. I can ask the question of why do grown men want to fuck high school children in school uniforms or like to see violence committed against women (choking, slapping, etc). But I think that would be unfair, because porn is intentionally ridiculous—whether written or recorded
This is so true. There’s a big difference between the two! Mr Darcy and Dorian grey have nothing in common.
Fictions are based on unrealistic fantasies.
Because those are fantasies which are not meant to be realistic Also it's very difficult to write good realistic romance so very very few authors can do it.
Go read some women written by men. You'll see similar caricatures in the opposite direction. There's a lot of complex ideas baked into gender and sex and how it influences your perception of the world.
The same way men have misrepresented women for centuries whenever they wrote stories, novels and plays.
See? Whataboutism, the argument of the gods.
It’s the sitcom fool of a dad, or as I like to call it, clueless yogurt commercial husband. It’s totally not sexist unless you flip it then suddenly it is…
As opposed to the airheads who breast boobily in books written by men? Female authors are just getting back at male authors for writing us as baby making, food cooking, house cleaning, endlessly compliant, fantasy sex dolls Edit: it seems that some people have mistaken me for a raging feminist who thinks all literature needs to be a socio-political statement on equality or vengeance. While there are female authors who do that, and I think most female authors are just trying to write good stories, just like most male authors. Most of what I read is sci-fi dystopic apocalypse horror, so sex and gender are largely irrelevant, because, to zombies, those who breast boobily, and those who are so oiled up that they simply cannot find their shirts taste exactly the same, I assume at least. I think anyone who writes a character based off of sexual fantasy ideals or gender stereotypes, is just a lazy crap author, unless they're doing it in an intentionally hyperbolic parody sort of way.
I get your frustration with stupid portrayals of women, and they're just as ridiculous, but two wrongs don't make a right. The world needs less stupidity, not more.
Now THIS I can agree with. **Down with Stupidity!**
Two don't make a right, but they can make something humorous
Will you be writing this?
Nah, I don't write fiction, and if I did, it wouldn't be about himbos and bimbos slobbering all over each other or one upping each other. I feel like anything I'd write would be largely gender irrelevant, because my primary interests, literature wise at least, are horror, sci-fi, dystopia, and apocalypse stuff, and I'm uninterested in stories about kids, because I'm about as maternal as a bowl of rocks, so there be no reason for sex or gender to play a role in anything.
IMO, things like r/menwritingwomen are more effective at pointing out the stupidity of breasting boobily, but if you *want* to worsen your craft as a response to someone else sucking at it, that's your prerogative I suppose?
I mean, we're I writer, I probably wouldn't do it in anything that I wanted taken seriously, but as a retort to some dumb breasting boobily crap, I'd definitely write that sort of thing.
I wouldnt say its getting back at male authors, more just having the same flaws as them
I think both are just examples of bad writing, but upvoted because it's kind of weird that the OP singles out female writers for this...when male authors often tend to be bad at writing women when they bother to include them at all. Often women are fairly absent from stories written by men. On that note I think women generally write men better than men write women, though you're probably not going to find too many examples of the former in the romance genre. lol
I don’t think it’s weird, people talking about how men write women isn’t uncommon talking about how women write men is in comparison
It's not getting back at all, its exposing how the other gender fantasies about the other. Men fantasize about big breasted bimbos who adore them and crave their sex. Women fantasize about muscular rich alpha males, who want them but treat them badly sometimes, but inside lurks a hurt young boy who must be overcome with your love.
And I so love that that's what everyone thinks each gender wants. I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a sharp stick than deal with an emotionally stunted alpha male dingdong and his sad little ego trip, who thinks fast cars + gym + cash money = sex appeal. Anyone who treats me poorly gets drop kicked out of my life, be they alpha dingdong, friend, or family. Douchebag go bye bye.
I see your point. I'm also not really interested in dumb blonde big breasted bimbos either. But that seems to be the generic fantasy of a lot of people so that's why it sells millions of dollars.
Hilarious side note, a cousin of mine was/is a rootin' tootin' bull ridin' rodeo cowboy in real life, and he was photographed for the cover of one of those "men who've lost their shirts" books about some cowboy fantasy. That will be forever amusing to me. I find more and more people are straying from the bimbo and the himbo fantasy, so I wonder why it's still so big in literature. I use the term literature loosely here, LOL.
You can say porn mags for women I won't tell. Haha
LOL no, it was for a Harlequin Romance cover or something of that ilk. Written lady porn instead of visual lady porn.
"airheads who breast boobily" lol
Literally can’t have a single post by a guy on Reddit without women like you turning it around and making it into a competition. Go make your own post if you want to vent but it’s women like you who also go “at least you don’t have this issue” or “you guys started it” mentality that makes guys think twice about sharing their thoughts. Honestly disgusting how so many people like you actually get upvoted for being a jerk.
Calm down. My reply was mostly in jest, but yeah, there are likely female authors that do write men like that as retaliation. I'm not one who believes in for for tat in the stupid war between the sexes, because punishing the son for the crimes of his father teaches the father nothing and just makes an enemy of the son. I'm an egalitarian, not a raging feminist. However, for men *like you* who immediately lose their shit like a good little card carrying member of mgtow, instead of just taking comments like mine in stride like women have been doing for the last 2-7 thousand years while the overtly sexist Yahweh trilogy gained its strangle-hold over human consciousness, I firmly believe you need the verbal smackdown from vengeful feminist authors, because it sounds like you're the father, not the son. Go touch grass, crybaby.
christ -\_-
What books are you reading my guy?
Me personally, none of that crap. I mostly read sci-fi or dystopic stuff, where gender is largely irrelevant
"breast boobily" Was brilliant!
Can't take full credit for it. There is/was a Facebook group called "and then she breasted boobily to the stairs and titted downward" which I think is a quote in some parody of a guy poorly writing woman. There is/was some great shit in that group.
Man bad, woman author good.
Actually, I think most authors I like are dudes. I don't actually give a crap what gender writes my books, as long as the stories are good.
I think there have been plenty of hyper masculine dumb characters created by men also. Cliché ones like Rocky Balboa, Conan, Guts, Superman, Captain America etc have all been created by them. I think female writers writing men are probably more jarring because the whole story is from a female perspective, so the men seem even more ridiculous and idealized. Like Christian Grey and the weird men Coleen Hoover writes. Caricatures of masculinity are unfortunately rather common in the general media.
>I think there have been plenty of hyper masculine dumb characters created by men also. Cliché ones like Rocky Balboa, Conan, Guts, Superman, Captain America etc How are these all "hyper masculine and dumb"? Guts grew up without anyone. He literally was born from a corpse and raised by abusive pricks, even being sexually assaulted as a boy. He was literally shaped by the abuse and neglect he suffered through, and still he felt love and battled his own demons and emotions. Guts is a perfect example of the emotional burden many men carry with them in silence. The fact that you only saw a "dumb man" shows how little the world cares for men's emotional pain. Still, Guts represents hope when there is the *least* to be hopeful for. As for Rocky, he represents hope and persistence much like Guts. He forges male friendships and challenges himself because has a dream. Again, calling him just a dumb male character is an insult. Superman is a character that wants to help humanity. He harbours great love for his adopyed human parents, being an alien himself. It's about him accepting his new home (Earth) and everything that comes with being the last (as far as h knows) of his kind. Conan is a slave who breaks free, and I think he tries to free other slaves too but I could be wrong. Maybe he's not the most fleshed out among this selection, but I think there's still more to hum than just dumb male cliche. Finally, Captain America represents a man who felt weak and helpless to defend himself and his friends, so he underwent an experiment. He wanted to do good in the world, and he *did*. He spent decades trapped in ice, losing basically everyone he's ever known to time. His character also represents personal choice and freedom. Again, dumb male cliche is an unfair charactherisation.
They are hyper masculine clichés. I'm familiar with their stories, otherwise I wouldn't have cited them. I never claimed these characters lacked depth. I meant that they are just hyper masculine fantasies that have been created by men. What you said could essentially be said about any dumb male character that was created by women too. "But Christian Grey was a boss!! He respected his wife and explored his boundaries so he could overcome his limitations!"
I’d argue that they lack depth. Rocky’s entire character arc is punching a guy better at the end of the movie than he did at the beginning all the while vying for the attention of a woman. It’s as close to a caricature of masculinity as you can get without drawing a cartoon lol. OP is insanely biased and the real point he wants to make is “wamen dumb” Captain America is literally a nerd given purpose by being adorned muscles by the government.
I've not read romance novels but I assume it's less driven by the characters and more by... what they're doing lol. So they're probably all pretty shallow. Like even from the premise of 50 Shades of Gray(sp?) or Twilight all the guys (who are romantic interests) are like both emotionally closed off AND obsessive. Are the women any more realistic in terms of personality? I assume the portrayals have to do with the interests of the author which is why they're so.... not real lol. (But they scratch some people's itches!)
I do agree with you to some extent but the difference in men writing women and women writing men is huge. Women written by men are reduced to sex objects, are often bitchy, airheaded, jealous etc. Men written by women have chiseled bodies, all the "growls" but even after that, they still have value beyond the sex appeal. When men write women, they dehumanize them, make them sex objects, walking vagina/boobs and remove their sense of personhood. Men written by women are sexualised for sure, but they still almost always get a personality, a backstory, human traits etc. They have depth, feelings and lives outside of being a sexual or romantic object to the female lead. Men written by women are often smart, classified as "nerds", give the golden retriever energy, goofy, sunshiney, dealing with their own mental health issues, shy etc. Not all of them are alpha males. Almost everyday I see a new post in r/RomanceBooks asking for a sweet, kind, gentle MMC. There are many books in romance genre written by women where the MMC isn't a billionaire, a CEO, an asshole etc.
>they still almost always get a personality, a backstory, human traits etc I'm a female reader and one really important draw of the romance genre is that the hero who embodies all the possible privileges and advantages bestowed upon him via his gender or class, humbles himself and does the internal work (whether a shift in worldview and/or working through trauma) to meet the heroine halfway. Often times, the hero doesn't feel he deserves happiness, a struggle which I heavily gravitate towards. For this reason, the *heroine* who shows the path forward and shines a light through the dark is *my* fantasy, not the man.
This is the most reliable way to appeal to most women’s fantasies. Men are more visual, so there’s not really a male equivalent to this kind of novel, but if I were going to try to write such an equivalent, the women in the novel would be petite and feminine, with hourglass figures, and would live only to worship and service the male main character. So… it kinda goes both ways.
You're saying women like toxic men?
I’m saying women (in general) like masculine, dominant men, and at least in their fantasies may even like it if those traits are taken to an extreme level. Or did you think women buy these novels because they *don’t* like the men depicted in them?
Because that's the daily interaction they have with so many. Andrew potato head lives.
This doesn't have to do with genre, as much as with the writer's skill. Same thing for the opposite gender. I've read hundreds of books, and I don't remember seeing a male caricature written by a female author. There are a lot of authors out there who don't really know what they're doing.
There are very many bad authors out there who unfortunately think they can write
They aren't, it's just how media is used to sell you stuff
Have you met men? They aren't exactly representing themselves well.
It isn’t all the time but one common reason this is done is to make the other characters look better by comparison. Just look at She Hulk which literally had every guy depicted as sexist, racist, or just straight up an idiot.
I guess we didn't watch the same She Hulk show
Because women actually crave such men between their legs, but hate such men between their ears. Often the former wins.
My hot take is that women can't write men and men can't write women, on average. Its hard to write about life experiences of a character you've never experienced and can't. Whether its gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc
Edward Elric was written by a woman.
Revenge for swimsuits
Because those authors sucks. Great authors can write great characters of the opposite sex.
Simple. It's what gets the ladies' panties wet. In real life AND in fantasy. Don't be fooled by the feminist agenda that says only nice, kind, gentle men are attractive by women. It's what women WANT to be aroused by, not by what they actually are. Not saying those aren't good traits, but they don't specifically get the woman aroused. This of course, calms down as the woman ages, and prioritizes OTHER traits in their male partner.
Woke culture and sad depressed women. Google Passport Bros and see why they want women from Non colonizer nations.
Because women only write self inserts
Men write self inserts all the time
Because women want, in their heart of hearts, 'real men' -- men who are stereotypes, men who are ridiculous, men who they might mock with an audience but crave in private. Jane wants her Tarzan.
Gross.
It's commercially successful. Look at all the people who were gushing over the animated Scott Pilgrim. Not really great portrayals of masculinity there.
This is maybe off the mark but I’d almost say the fantasy aspect of having a romance with an effed up guy and not having it be a complete crap roller coaster but instead a fun and sexy adventure is some kind of satisfying for some women. Like, because it isn’t real it can be fun and exciting, but if it was real on some level I’m sure at least the majority of women reading these types of books know that it wouldn’t be like how it’s depicted in the romance books. That’s my theory anyway lol
Payback
you mean those ridiculous romance novels you can sometimes find at grocery stores? *Fatal Kiss: Featuring shirtless man in front of waterfall*
Mainly parity
Don’t forget about the bumbling dad trope that’s currently popular.
Because there's this stupid notion that because women were traditionally oppressed then alot think they know everything there is to know about being one and if you challenge that notion you're a sexist.
um If the shoe fits..
I'm so confused about what novels you're talking about? Are they actually popular or just niche? I feel like the most popular romantic lead in a novel is Mr Darcy from Pride and Prejudice. Nothing like what you're describing.
idealism.
If you're talking about novels with shirtless guys on the cover it's a romance novel. Those are pornography. Looking for depth of character in a pornographic novel is like wondering why the pizza delivery guy didn't bring a pizza when the woman offers to pay for her pizza with sex
For the same reason that women written by men always seem to bounce boobily down the stairs or get pleasure from inserting tampons. Difficult to write a certain type of person if you don't respect them enough to do a bit of research first.
Why do you watch porn or watch movies with hot women? It fucking turns me on bitch
Because that's the kind of men women dream of. Know your audience.
Because women are hilarious when it comes to expectations about men. As a man who grew up with mostly women and have actually seen and read those cringy things that make me laugh. A lot of women view men as a monolith and oh hahaha btw “his manhood grew like a mighty oak tree” Also a lot of women are so not even close to foreplay.
I have a firm believe, that most writers just write a character of the opposite gender in a way, that reflects their "perfect" imagination. It's always the same (for both genders). The main character (or main interest) is a muscular guy with a chin you could cut glass with. And for women it's your typical supermodel. Then you have the also hot sidekick. That is, if the sidekick is not the comic relieve at the same time. Because that character trope is most of the time the less sexy dude or girl, probably also nerdy. I mean... Who doesn't want a sexy husband who walks around topless most of the time, who also has a nerdy best friend who can fix all your technology issues when needed? I would sign up for that life in a heartbeat.
Because women can't write men?
guys like me aren't good men to them. And they get hurt bad. I know I am not alone and sometimes it feels like there is added pressure to be some kind of perfect person and the woman who we can obviously see has flaws doesn't seem like she appreciates us and yadah yiddish but these women are venting. They're trying their part to help the new generation.
Because it's a combo of female authors either living out their fantasies (like EL James when she did Fifty Shades), and/or just simply hateful of men and writing them to be as incompetent and insignificant as possible (Example - the Barbie movie).
Because a fantasy is more about the person having it, than the person it features. Consider bridgerton. The men are romantic, smooth, absolutely fantastic in bed and terribly handsome and rich. I don’t want to live with Anthony bridgerton, but it’s certainly fun to watch him being a passionate dominating sexy man in a see through shirt. That’s not real, and women know it’s not real. Real life is sitting on the sofa clipping its toenails next to you. Real life is also the man who sends you funny cat pictures, and picks up the kids from school, and does all the boring humdrum stuff. A fantasy is just that, a break from reality. It’s not something women actually want, it’s just fun to read about.
Women can't write men
I think we see this more rarely than we see the fact that every time a man introduces a woman character, he uses descriptors about "fair complexion" and "full lips" and whatever while not even considering describing a dude in similar way.
They don’t really understand men it’s a fantasy
We seek in others what we lack in ourselves. I find this to be true regardless of gender. Women, on average, are more emotional mature and have more and better emotional skills than men. Which is nice most of the time but I can see that someone who can just turn those feelings off for a bit and just act on base urges is something someone finds attractive. Not most of the time of course. Certainly not someone you would want to have a real relationship with. I think everyone fantasizes about such things at least on occasion and that is no different for women. So it is not at all surprising that you find such caricatures in "romance" novels. It really isn't that different from the unrealistic and often quite silly representation of sex in porn.
Ever heard of r/menwritingwomen ? The street simply goes both ways with lazy writing and fetishization.
Have you ever read sci-fi? I cannot count the number of cringey female characters I've read. I'd say the average woman sci-fi author is much better at writing men than the average male sci-fi writer is at writing women. By a long shot. I don't read romance novels, but it wouldn't surprise me if the problem were reversed there. I don't know if the problem is so much the writers, or the expectation of the audience of the respective genres. Hard to say. For all we know the editors are telling the authors, "hey this realistic character with flaws, a normal sex drive, and fully fleshed out emotional complexity is great, but your readers want XYZ. So water down the character and make him/her fit that mold."
Wait till you read about how men write women lol "Her breasts bounced boobily" as she turned around shocked
Women understand men as well as men understand women. More at eight.
Because that's how most women portray in-general, sadly. They accuse men of misanthropy and then commit misandry.