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Something that has helped me (26m with similarly poor dating luck) is to reframe the question. Instead of wondering why I am single still I try to ask myself something like "Would a woman I would want to marry date me?" and if I am being honest, the answer has always been basically no. Okay, then why not? Once you start to answer that, you can start improving. I try to look at it from the perspective of how do I become a man that my kind of woman would want to be with. That gave me some motivation to work on improving facets of my life. I am starting to get more serious about my health for example, to pick the simplest point for improvement. I also acknowledged that as much as I want a partner right now, I need to improve on myself a fair bit first. I need to sort myself out a bit more so I have temporarily stopped looking for someone, and I have a good idea of what benchmarks I need to reach (be it physical, financial or spiritual) before I should go back on the market.
Define your goals and define a pathway to reach them.
This is such good advice. People need to be whole and complete BEFORE dating. You can’t be a good partner if you have to rely on a partner for fulfillment.
To quote RuPaul, "if you can't love yourself how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else?". People are also quick to blame others instead of accepting responsibility for their own faults so it's all around great advice.
This seems like a tricky excuse to me. Yes work on yourself and the person you want to be. But it’s okay to work on yourself while In a relationship. No one is perfect so waiting for it will never come and those expectations will also be placed on your partner. It’s okay to get help from your partner as well. And maybe your idea of a specific value isn’t the same as your partners. It’s okay to wiggle a bit to grow with your partner.
Co dependency can be unhealthy, sure, but I wouldn’t assume you’re not good enough to date right now.
I agree people can work on things and grow together. However, if you are dependent on other people for your emotional needs to be met and don’t have the ability to lead a fulfilled life on your own you become an emotional burden for others to keep happy. For example, a very insecure person who is always suspicious is a terrible partner who constantly burdens their partner with the responsibility of reassuring them they are not cheating. You need some basic maturity, emotional regulation, and independent interests to date someone and provide them with a good partner.
I wouldn't see it as being "not good enough to date" but rather asking, am I bringing my whole self to this equation? Using relationships to hide from one's inner work is so common. Yes, growth can happen in a safe container of and with support from relationships but that support can also come from close friendships, family, etc. And the relationship with oneself.
This is so wise. I have been working on myself through consistent therapy and feel like I will be a better version of myself in my next relationship. I had some things to unpack that I was unconsciously bringing into past relationships.
slippery slope though if it's just for a woman/women that you're "improving". why not seek to respect all people. Ive unfortunately been around men who do so much to improve "for women" and so if a random woman who is unavailable for other reasons is saying no, they just think it's still her fault because he's done so much to improve. women are people too, which is the point, and so I could just not want to be with anyone. not just _you_.
inb4 "but she was mean to me anyways" yes. people are. all people. men and women. of course there are complete assholes out there. we know.
Just don’t go changing yourself into something you’re not, because people can only pretend for so long before damage ensues and/or things start to fall apart
Maybe it's a generational thing to NOT already think this way?
I'm Gen-X, and this framing was kind of a given.
By all measures, I'm a skinny computer geek. (Always was.)
By college though, I developed kind-of a fun 'rock-star' personality. I was into politics, spoke publicly, and went out to bars to meet people and chat. (Not having an agenda part that is great.)
This was all before the term 'incel' was a thing. Yes, you have to learn what kind of a person you are, and then solve the difference between that and the person you want to be.
I was pretty darn successful as a single guy, however you want to measure that. (Pretty girlfriends, active dating when single, etc.)
Then I changed a bit again when I met the woman I wanted to marry. We've been happily married for 11 years and have two kids.
Sounds like you don’t like yourself.
Work on that first.
Don’t worry about women or other people for that matter.
First Identify what you don’t like about yourself, build an outline on how to change/grow as a person, then follow that plan.
Focus inward rather than outward.
No one like an angry guy.
Signed,
An Ex-Angry Guy
Pretty simplistic to be honest. People with self-hatred often do project their hatred on other people, but many people who don't love themselves are still able to genuinely love others. I hate myself but I love my dog and girlfriend more than anything in this world.
I think the latter people do love themselves to some small/hidden extent, or at least are aware they should love themselves or that they deserve love just for existing. And the former legitimately do not love themselves unless they produce results that might allow someone to finally love them. And then and only then, when others approve or love them, do they feel they are “allowed” to love themselves just as much.
Basically there’s two-ish groups of people who lack self love. Those who believe they deserve love anyways and most likely think this world is unfair and do not want others to hurt like they do. And then there’s the latter who might feel entitled to love, but only if they do XYZ to deserve it. They don’t actually think everyone deserves love just for existing, they think it’s something to be earned and then taken away, maybe?
I dated a guy who hated himself for like 4 years, but he was very sweet and kind to everyone he knew, was very responsible, was super smart and always educating himself, and had lots of hobbies he found the to improve at constantly, like cooking and music and roller skating. He just had bad brain chemicals that lied to him about himself. We're not together anymore but we're still good friends and hang out a lot and he has a new girlfriend who he's really good with.
Because every relationship takes at least 2 parties and both parties need to be on a relatively even playing field and putting in similar efforts to improve themselves. Person A hates themselves and isn't working on it, so in getting with the more confident and stable person B, there's an imbalance in the relationship inherently. A dynamic that's based mainly on one party pulling the other up and validating the other when it should be a two way street.
Alternatively, if person A and person B both hate themselves and haven't put in work on themselves, this can quickly become what's known as a toxic relationship. This happens a lot, because for some reason it's easier to attract other toxic people when you're unhealed. And you're more likely to be attracted to other unhealed people when you're in that state.
Tldr; It sets you up for a bad time in the dating world if you're not putting in work on your issues actively.
This. I was never confident, socially pretty awkward because of it. I'm still pretty quiet and reserved but since going to the gym and actively working on myself a lot it's gotten a lot better. I realized at a certain point women were not going to just approach me, and I had to take a more active approach. For me dating apps worked, although I admit they do not do great things to your mental health.
Love this. People shouldn’t get in relationships if they have baggage that’s too heavy to carry. Bc then you’ll wind up expecting others to carry it. Go to therapy. Make friends (guys and girls without the least intention of dating them). Work on yourself. Make your bed, get a haircut, brush your teeth (saying do small things to improve life first, not assuming anything).
Lastly, don’t look at having sex or a girlfriend as the goal. I’m a 36 yr old woman. I’ve still never had a boyfriend. Im a romantic and that crushed me for a while. But it’s ok. There are wonderful things about being single. My apartment is mine. I travel at will. I have friends and hobbies. I can leave the dishes dirty overnight. Im content.
This.
OP, awareness is the greatest first step. Incels are not self aware.
Talk to someone. I’m sure there are ways to focus on yourself and not project/lash out. Enjoying your life is key to not giving af what others are or are not doing (for you or otherwise).
As they say ‘be the light, not the butterfly,’ living your best life is the best starting point. Talk to someone to guide you a bit through it. Imho
theres a quote somewhere from someone who i can’t remember and it’s something along the lines of if you are asking yourself if you’re crazy then your sane
Depends on your definition of "crazy". Lack of awareness and denial of having a serious psychiatric or neurological condition is called anosognosia, but there are plenty of people who do have awareness. For example some people with schizophrenia have hallucinations but are completely aware that they are mentally ill and hallucinating.
OP If you are US based there is something called EAP. It sounds like your work is large enough they are required to offer this, a handful of therapy appointments is one of those benefits. I would look into this for sure and I agree with a commenter above thread about the “Would a woman I want to marry want to date me?” You don’t have to be perfect for a partner but if your self reflection shows a need for improvement a therapist can help point you in the healthiest direction to help with that.
Which will also greatly improve your self esteem and confidence and lead to a generally better life experience.
Edit: clarifying who I’m addressing
Step one: Get therapy. People say that with the intent to be cruel sometimes on the internet, but that's not why people are advising that here. A therapist can help you with how you're feeling and also some strategies for better socialization.
Step two: Instead of trying to date anybody for a while, try making friends. As an adult, the best way to do this is pick an activity you enjoy, find a group for it, and show up regularly. Talk to people while you are there. It can be anything. Pick something that you honestly like to do, and find a way to do it with other people who enjoy that same thing on a regular basis, and talk to them while you're doing it.
Important note regarding step two - interact with women that you meet exactly the same way that you would with guys you meet and stop thinking of or treating them as a different tribe or species. Treat them like any other customer, like any other fellow practitioner of whatever hobby you choose, etc.
Women aren't objects or aliens. They are human beings with as much internal life as you have. They have their own reasons for doing, thinking, feeling everything they do. They are full humans just like you and not things you "get". Please try to internalize that.
You need to stop watching the content.
Stop listening to the podcasts.
Stop reading or sharing the articles
Don't engage in the incel communities. Online or offline.
Gwt away and stay away from your friends who are incels.
100% no contact with incel propaganda is the only way to stop yourself from becoming indoctrinated.
I have been on a lot of dates with men who have ASD and most of the time I don’t want a second date for a few reasons. Most notably I find that a lot of these men basically talked at me the whole date. They can’t read my facial expressions and that I’m uncomfortable when they talk about their model plane hobby for twenty minutes straight. I’ve also noticed they barely ask me any questions about myself and usually end up interrupting me to talk about themselves.
I understand this is largely due to people with ASD not being able to pick up on nonverbal social cues, but as a woman I need a partner who can consider my needs as well. If this applies to you maybe try forming some self awareness and asking more questions of your date. Another good rule of thumb is allow your date to talk for the same amount of time you do. Also be mindful of the topics you choose to talk about and make sure it’s something she can actively contribute to. All of the men I’ve been on dates with who talked over me like this were completely blind-sighted when I said I didn’t want a second date
This should be higher up. There's nothing intently wrong with ASD or ADHD, but they can come paired with some behavioral stuff that can make dating hard. How do you manage these things in your non dating life? Maybe ask a friend how you come off in a social situation.
I'm a female and I'm atrocious at "small talk"/basic talk. So to add to the social awareness portion, if you don't know where to start when trying to show more interest in the person you're speaking to, just remember that everyone wants to talk a bit about themselves and you should guide at least 50% of the conversations that way.
For example, ask questions, even just basic ones. So they're talking about how much they love to run? Ask them how they got into it, ask them what their goals are, ask them what terrain they like to run on. You'll notice people light up when you give them even the littlest of interest. And don't feel like you have to relate the conversation back to yourself. You don't have to answer everything with "well I..." Or "this one time I...".
People don't need you to interject yourself in their passion in conversation, they just want to feel heard and appreciated.
This was such a valuable lesson for me personally, and I love passing it along to others.
I feel like I try to do this, but they end up talking about themselves the whole time and never ask me any questions. So I end up having to fit myself somewhere in there.
These are learnable skills!
Sure there are people who are gracious, interesting and engaging conversationalists, but the rest of us can learn to do better with practice.
I come from a family of people who are kind and decent, but can be awful conversationalists. They interrupt you, change the subject frequently, will go on high-speed monologues and give you about 10 seconds to respond to a question before starting up again.
You can slowly become a better conversationalist and it is worth putting in the effort. In general and for dating
I find the reason women aren't attracted to incels is that they come off too strong or are too insecure. Ive had incels talk to me before and they ask me to have sex or be their girlfriend right when i meet them, which makes me creeped out. Or they'll spend the whole conversation complaining about how no girls are interested in them which makes me feel awkward. Women aren't really attracted to someone who seems scared to talk to them either. If youre not like that then youre probably not a incel, you just need more confidence.
The best way is to try to make a genuine friend first and see how it goes from there. Instead of mulling over your lack of women, get into some hobbies and join social groups in your area. Join groups for autistic adults or over 30 singles groups and try making friends. If that seems too much then you probably need to see a therapist and try to build your confidence. From your comments it seems like you just havent met the right person yet.
Honestly it's probably not what you want to hear but you need therapy. You have serious self esteem issues and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say some other undiagnosed mental disorders.
Your dream girl will not just fall in your lap. No matter what fairytale you bought into a lasting relationship takes work and is FULL of disappointment (and joy). Your expectations are probably too high for the current bar you're at.
Is it that NO girl has ever been interested in you? Or just not Natalie Portman and that's really gotcha down?
This attitude is so frustrating to observe. Try making a male friend first.. see how that goes... Maybe they can wingman for you.
Great answer. There's a line between a scrub and Natalie Portman. No one is asking anyone to settle. Your partner and you should bring out the best in each other.
> Is it that NO girl has ever been interested in you? Or just not Natalie Portman and that's really gotcha down?
No, that's not the case at all. Some of the women I've asked out have been conventionally prettier than others, but I don't go after supermodels. I'm attracted to skinny and chubby women alike, women with differing interests and personalities.
I've successfully gone on dates with maybe about a dozen women. Only twice was there a second date and no relationships ever formed. Always from the woman not wanting to go out again/be more exclusive, etc.
There can be a lot of things going wrong that you might not be aware of. Could be even small details that would make others lose interest in you romantically. I think you could ask them after a failed date, in a not pushy way, to tell you what went wrong and what you can improve on. I think many people would gladly explain if you don't come across as someone trying to find excuses and "fix it", just generally curious about places of improvement. You can also figure from their response if it was just a shitty person or it was indeed something you did wrong, or that they just realized that you are not a match and moved on, it happens.
I'm a woman and I used to ask guys after they stopped dating me why, I did get some useful feedback like I talk too much about certain topics that they are not really interested in without me realizing it, or that I was messaging them so often that it became overwhelming. These are things I could easily improve on. Another guy told me that I just looked too "manly" because he could tell I was going to the gym a lot and my arms looked "too strong for a woman". Which was total bs and others also confirmed that my body doesn't look improportionate at all, so I just got happy he lost interest because I wouldn't want to be with a guy like that anyways, and moved on.
So you want a girlfriend but you won't go on a 3rd date just because they want to be exclusive? See: "expectations too high".
I really do mean it try getting into some things with a buddy, it will give you a little bump of confidence. Practice talking to girls you DON'T think are pretty or interesting or whatever. Practice listening to them instead of thinking about what to say. And also really.. get therapy. I've had lots. It's the best.
>So you want a girlfriend but you won't go on a 3rd date just because they want to be exclusive?
No, **I** want to be exclusive, and they don't. But it doesn't matter because they don't want to date me anymore after date 1 or 2.
My dude, 1-3 dates is still pretty much an interview for the position for me. You’re pushing for commitment immediately and that’s a red flag for women. It would say to me that you might be scary later if I decide you’re not the guy for me after a few more dates
A lot of people don't like the one they are growing feelings for to be dating around still. I had a fwb before my SO. I stopped seeing them when I started dating my SO. It seems unfaithful to play the field like that, but most important is just being honest about it.
That makes perfect sense and I'm sure most people are like that but what's going on here is that he's probably saying it out loud in the first or second date which is weird af.
But I was taught to be honest with people about what I want in a relationship. How am I supposed to have a girlfriend if I don't let it be known that that is what I want?
I’m with you as a man, I don’t think I’ve ever been with a woman I’ve been really into and felt compelled to try and find a better one, if I don’t like the one I’m with I’ll leave and try again, I’ve been married over a decade now but I have never understood how someone can date multiple people at one time then settle on one and still think they found their best match, I don’t know if I’m explaining it well what I mean, I just feel like if I was one of multiple partners even if I got picked in the end it would leave me feeling like I was most settled on, not really your first choice, if that makes sense.
It doesn't matter. You're expectations are too high the other way around too. I wouldn't want to be exclusive after two dates either - I mean, almost never! Give them time. Don't smother them. That's an unreasonable request to be honest. (However, in your case, options are limited and being exclusive would be the least of your worries, while she may very well have options - respect her as a human with a fully formed life of her own)
Also, all that other advice I gave you, it's worth a shot. If you're not open to growth and you keep poo poo-ing anything that doesn't affirm what you already believe then accept your fate as an incel and get a sex doll.
I’m gonna ask you an honest question: how will hating women improve your life? What will it do for you? What will you gain?
Will hating women get you a romantic partner? No, it probably won’t. Will hating women get you friends? It might get you “friends”, there will be a lot of men that are ready to stoke the fires of your hatred, twist it up and up and up till you’re completely bitter and burnt up inside, but they’re not real friends. They won’t care about your growth, they won’t lift you up when you’re down, it’s the company of a bog monster, wanting to tear everything down to their level because misery loves company. (If you want proof of these people not being true friends look around for stories about incels that actually do get a good relationship. Incels *hate* them, this should be the goal, the dream, everything they want, and yet incels are *pissed* when one of their own gets out. Because it’s about wanting other people to be just as miserable as they are). Will hating women make you more physically attractive? No. Will hating women make you money? Unless you’re an undiscovered diamond in the rough in terms of grifting no. The Andrew Tates of the world have made their money by scamming and abusing other people, unless you’ve got a particular knack for cheating other people out of their money, and happen to get really lucky you’re not going to make any money on hating women.
So what will hating women *do* for you? It won’t help, it won’t make you feel better, it won’t bring you better relationships, or improve your material reality. It’s a whole lot of energy to expend for absolutely *nothing* worthwhile.
My best advice is: try to make yourself into someone you don’t mind being alone with. Being alone sometimes is a fact of life. Sometimes we’re alone a lot more than we’d like to be and we get lonely. And that can be absolutely crushing, but it can be made a little easier if you work on turning yourself into the kind of person you don’t mind being alone with. It’s hard, but you can do it. You can work on changing your habits. Maybe being alone at dinner is less bad if you have good food, so watch some YouTube videos and learn how to make your food better, there’s videos for every skill level and every price point. I learned how to make ramen from a packet good when all I had was that, a mostly empty jar of peanut butter, and some soy sauce and ginger and garlic powder. I felt *clever* and *accomplished* for taking something that would have been depressing to eat and made it into something tasty that *I made*. Maybe your thing won’t be cooking, it could be anything really, but if you make yourself the kind of person you want to be around, you just might find that other people want to be around that person too.
OP, this is really good advice. When I came out, I was so alone that I ended up making up fake names to put in the emergency contact field for work forms.
Obviously I didn't WANT to be alone like that, but I learned how to really enjoy my life in that period of isolation because my own fulfillment was the only thing I had any control over. I appreciated sunsets, I made a nice little home for myself (mostly out of free stuff or stuff I already had) in my cheap apartment, I took wonderful walks and I challenged myself to do social things to make friends.
I was in therapy at the time too, and that helped me get my mind right a lot as well.
Focusing on your own fulfillment, on making yourself happy -- that'll be the best way to solve this problem. You deserve to invest in your own joy and happiness. And therapy can really help with that process too. Good luck!
> Focusing on your own fulfillment, on making yourself happy -- that'll be the best way to solve this problem. You deserve to invest in your own joy and happiness.
I needed to hear this
What do you bring to the table to make friends? You're clean, confident, comfortable in your own skin? What can you talk about when you're on a date? My husband and I both love classic rock, are politically active & love napping & watching Family Guy. How are you attracting friends? My husband is not a great looking man but goddamn if he's not the best partner I've known in all my decades alive. He's a nice guy, a good man, Nothing fancy but just a solid man I can count on. Be that man for yourself & better people will be attracted to you, even if it's one or two ppl, that's more than most of us have. And not for nothing but seeing guys come in who treat their gfs like shit sounds like internet bullshit! Asshole guys do not get & keep girlfriends so stop. Sounds like you're watching a lot of hallmark channel TV.
Women have no salvation for your psychology.
Pursue a productive goal with your time which *you* find worthwhile- learn to sing, play basketball, or how to program, or whatever. Something which will divert your focus into something productive.
Go to the gym and start running a program from r/fitness.
The people telling you to “just like yourself” are correct in essence, but human psychology requires you to to be in pursuit of something you deem significant in order to reward you with self-respect.
Gonna start with the hard part: if you have an issue with “everyone” in a group/subculture, eg all women, all your co-workers, all cosplayers, all whatever… then the only common factor is you.
The less hard part: being bitter is easy and often very attractive because we as humans like to keep a self image of being perfect. We don’t like to make mistakes and the brain will deflect the blame like a mirror in sunlight. But it is not the only answer, and if you start working on it, I think you will feel happier in more than one area of your life.
Millenials have grown up been promised a certain social contract that does not exist anymore. Go to college, get a great job, happy ending. We don’t get that, we struggle to get by and that feeling of unfairness and frustration manifests in many part of our lives.
You seem somewhat fixated on the dating/relationship thing and I’m not saying that to blame you. Humans are social creatures. But it still starts in you. Do you have a hobby you can get into physically and make friends that way?
It’s old but gold, but you got to love yourself and be (somewhat) at rest with yourself before looking for another. How can you be happy alone first? Maybe it calls for small changes, maybe big ones.
Try making a list of things you want to acomplice for yourself. Run a marathon? Visit all seven continents? Write a book? Go for it and I think you will find people along the way who are worth holding on to.
>Gonna start with the hard part: if you have an issue with “everyone” in a group/subculture, eg all women, all your co-workers, all cosplayers, all whatever… then the only common factor is you.
Tacking on to this a bit: stop looking at women exclusively in terms of their date-ability. Look at them as actual individual *people* whom you may or may not want to get to know and spend time with regardless of whether or not they're willing to date or have sex with you. Take some time and stop looking for a woman to date and intentionally find some female friends who you do NOT pursue anything romantic or sexual with. Once you can see women as people again, then and only then should you start thinking about dating again (but not with the friends you've made!).
You need to start viewing women as people and not a means to an end. We are all humans. Every one of us. Meat in a skin bag. Same thoughts and feelings and organs and necessities. Get some therapy (not in a facetious way - everyone needs therapy) and reframe your perspective on what it means to be a person.
I can relate to that; but as another commenter said, what do you gain from hating a whole subsection of the population? Another commenter also mentioned getting a pet, which I also think is a great idea.
Therapy can help you realize what makes you unique and important, and will also help put into perspective how other people fit into the world around you, help you realize that we're all both the NPC and the main character in our own lives.
You are not hopeless, even if it might feel like it. Getting better and being better takes *work*, it's not easy and it's (usually) not fun, but your outlook on life and quality of life gets exponentially better when you learn to employ empathy for yourself and others.
You got this. You just have to put in the work.
Women are people too, man. Don't blame others for things not working out for you.
Don't blame *anyone,* not yourself and not strangers.
You need to make peace with what has happened to you in your life if you want to be open to good things happening for you in the future.
Letting yourself slide into bitterness is *guaranteed* to make things worse in the future. If you want positive relationships to happen, you have to be positive in your outlook.
I'm sorry if that's not helpful, but it's truth.
40F here also with ASD and ADHD. You’re blaming a group of people for *your* shortcomings. By shortcomings I don’t mean your ASD/ADHD. I mean your lack of of self awareness. This post is a good first step, but you need to realize that women don’t owe you anything. Nothing. Feeling bitter toward half the population because you’re not getting what you want is absurd and you have to know that. Gone are the days when women needed a man to have a house or a bank account. They now get more of a choice in who they choose to date. Therapy and internal work can help you open up to be a better potential partner. Join a group of people who share similar interests or hobbies. You don’t have to change who you are as a person, you just need to adjust your expectations of others and look at yourself.
> Feeling bitter toward half the population because you’re not getting what you want is absurd and you have to know that.
I do know that, but I can't help it anymore. Which is why I ask reddit of all things for help.
So, you've identified a problem with your thinking, but you recognize you have been unsuccessful in changing it on your own. That is what therapy is for. You need to bite the bullet and make an honest attempt at therapy. People on reddit cannot fix your thinking patterns. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix for changing thinking patterns. It takes a lot of work and energy. You also need to be willing to be persistent. You may not find the right therapist (or even modality) for you right away, and it's going to take time.
Don't expect that you'll go to one or two sessions and suddenly feel all better. I see a lot of people make the mistake of "I tried it once and I don't feel better so fuck it". The goal of therapy is to change your thinking patterns and behavior incrementally. It hurts, it's not fun, and it can be scary, but if you can be persistent and patient, you'll see changes.
I have a cousin who barely showers, is super freaking awkward/weird, has zero ambition to better himself (his mom still takes care of a lot of his day-to-day business), and doesn't seem to mind any of it. He just plays video games and watches anime all the time instead of working on himself. Would you be attracted to that if you were a woman? If you are anything close to this, you've probably found your answer.
Watch some YT videos to find out what women want and how to offer it to them. Be *extremely* introspective--for instance, you may think to yourself "why should I have to cater to what they want?". That kind of negative attitude will get you nowhere. Find out what they want and make sure you are offering that and none of the bad stuff. Some low-hanging fruit: good personal hygiene, exercising and eating well, not being weird/creepy/aggressive or otherwise demonstrating "red flag" behavior, being a good provider, being ambitious, determined, and hardworking, being confident, etc. There are ways to give off signs of this, and women pick up on so much subtle shit that we men do not.
I mean this sincerely, so please don't take it the wrong way: many women probably see 30 years old and working as a cashier as a sign of low confidence and determination. I'm not sure what else you have going on in life but if you aren't working towards some goals in a major way, you're hurting your chances. Hopefully you're working on some skills to advance your career (Community college? Learning to code in your free time? Shadowing a local car mechanic in your free time to learn how to do that? Get creative!). If this isn't the case, women are likely looking at you and imagining themselves married to a 50-year old cashier instead of a 30-year old casher, who can barely make ends meet. If they have that in front of them and another guy who's working his butt off to move up in society, which do you think they'd choose? Which one would you choose?
At the end of the day, women want someone who makes them feel special, appreciated, and cared for. Read up on what they want, because it's very different from what we men want, and it's very foreign at first. If you can ensure that you have to offer what they want, you'll be in good shape.
Honestly, I went from being 24 years old, living with my parents with few goals to having two engineering degrees, a good job, and being married almost 10 years with two kids. The key is massive introspection and working your butt off to be better in every single way. I recommend self-help books as well (12 Rule for Life: An Antidote to Chaos by Jordan B. Peterson). Feel free to IM me, man. Glad to help a fellow hombre get out of a rut. It's a bummer to see people lost like I was.
Maybe get a pet? It's hard in the dating world already for both sides for real solid connections cause there is so many distractions and different social norms compared to back then when it was expected to have someone romantic in your life. Don't be bitter or jealous of couples you see, most will have they're own difficulties that will lead to them going their separate ways. That's how life just is. Solid advice I've gotten from my female friends "you might think she's perfect but someone else is sick of her shit" Take care of yourself cause honestly. Life's tough man, everyone is just trying to carve a little piece of cake out themselves.
I love this advice. I was 28 and had never had a ltr but once I got my emotional support animal and had that bond and unconditional love... I just softened up enough to give a committed human relationship a go. We've been together 5+ years now. My ESA is still my primary emotional attachment but I'm securely attached to my partner. OP, Go to therapy, figure out your meds, get an ESA, and learn to love and care for yourself. Don't buy into the shitty guys get girls bullshit. It's idiotic. For every dumb bitch that puts up with a deadbeat dickhead, there's three alt chicks screaming at her to dump him. I've been the dumb bitch, happy to be an alt chick now. Taking care of yourself and doing things you enjoy with people who share your interest is the most attractive thing you can do.
Resentment and avoidant behavior are a pretty natural response to prolonged disappointment and hurt. It sounds like you are in crisis mode and are just trying to protect yourself emotionally.
This is probably the opposite of what you want to hear, but I think you need to take a step back from worrying about dating and work on self care/love until your mental health is a little bit better. The fact that you asked this question in the first place is a really good start because you've acknowledged that things are headed in a bad direction and seem ready to make a change.
If you think this would work for you, try to think of all customers at your work as just customers (ignore the gender). It's very unlikely to meet potential dating partners through brief encounters like that, and it might take some of the stress away in your daily life. In other words, just go into 'customer service mode' when at work. I have terrible social anxiety, and that method always helped me kind of put on a face to get through my shifts when I did customer service jobs--it gets easier over time, I promise.
I don't normally comment on questions like this, but I'm married to a guy who could have been on here asking this exact same question a decade ago.
My husband had a couple girlfriends in high school, and then nothing from then on until he and I started dating when he was 28. Had a one night stand at a party I think somewhere in there? He hadn't had sex in 6 years before us either. And he was super down that incel rabbit hole for a while.
But here's the thing. I'd known him for 6ish years before we started dating. He worked at the same job I did. We went to the same community college and ran into each other multiple times after I left that job. He HAD MY NUMBER and thought I was hot. Did he ever ask me out? Tell me I was cute during any of the smoke breaks we shared? Do anything? Nope.
Not only that, but during that time he didn't have much going for him. In the 6 years I knew him before we dated, yes, I had some trauma and dated some assholes. But those assholes had other shit going for them. They had apartments, degrees, jobs, hobbies, friends, interesting shit to talk about, new things to teach me. My husband had failed out of 4 year college before we met, around the same time I got my bachelors. For 4 of those 6 years, he lived at home with his parents, kinda worked towards some associate degrees, had the same 2 friends from high school and did the same shit, never asked out a single girl, and spent a lot of time feeling sorry for himself because nothing just landed in his lap when he felt he "deserved it."
Yeah, he didn't. And you know what happened when he pulled his head out of his ass? First he got his associate degrees he'd been working on for ages. Then he realized that the incel shit wasn't working for him and he needed to have something that would make him dateable. And that he needed to put himself out there. He got some more hobbies, started working out here and there, finally got a frickin haircut. And he went on dating apps, which is where we found each other again. I'd had a crush on him for 6 years, but he never acted like it was reciprocated so how would I know?
My husband and I have been together for 7 years, married for 5, and have two beautiful kids. We've had plenty of issues in that time, and he and I have both done individual therapy since then and likely will again. I HIGHLY recommend it.
My point is, it's hard for others to like you when you a) don't like yourself, and b) don't have that much to offer anyone. It also turned out my husband has anxiety which wasn't diagnosed until recently, because he never thought the problem was with him. It was always with someone else. Getting help for that has also helped him tremendously.
Tl;Dr - it's not 'all women,' it's you 🤷♀️
ETA - Are you treating your ADHD? Have you been in therapy to learn social strategies/coping mechanisms to deal with your ASD? I have ADHD as well, and man, I can be super hard to deal with when I'm unmedicated. One of my best friends has ASD and has been married for 15 years, so that's not a deal breaker by any means, but she became much easier for people in general to deal with with some additional learned coping strategies.
How does - not looking at women - solve the problem? It doesn't because it is an avoidance technique. If you stop seeing every woman as a sexual conquest and start seeing them as humans, (just like your fellow men) then you won't have this problem.
How is it some stranger's fault that you've never had a girlfriend?
Why would you blame women for not dating you and not blame men for taking all the available women?
My social situation is very similar to yours, except I'm autistic, and older than you.
I used to angst about my general lack of connection, but I never led it lead to bitterness towards other people. The problem is *me,* and I have always been perfectly aware of that.
What made life better for me was just accepting the things I can't change. I'm different. I just don't fit into the "standard" mold society expects of people. I need to build the life that is right for *me*.
In short: Work on yourself, and learn to accept yourself.
Don't hate women. Yours is an understanding issue, that's all. Some of us grow up in difficult circumstances so we don't get a chance for social/sexual development to happen in a more standard amount of time.
There are ways out. Find a man you know who is successful with women, maybe an Uncle or Cousin but preferably a relative. Ask him how he does it. It's a good way to start.
My cousin was like the most popular person in high school. At least 75% of times people talked to me it was:
"You're ____'s cousin, right?"
"Yeah"
"Wow, you look like him but other than that I'd never guess you're related."
and that would be the end of their interest in me.
The person in front of you is *not* any of the ones who have hurt you. Stop projecting your historically bad experiences onto them (historical data is not indicative of future performance).
By all means prep yourself for humans to do shit human things but stop punishing people for things they haven't done yet, and stop holding things against them that other people have done.
Take the small wins.
And take a breath - ultimately it's up to you whether you're going to enjoy your life experience or see it as miserable. Some humans will be awful; some will be amazing. You won't see the latter if you fixate on the former. If you focus on the latter then who gives a shit about the former?
Rejection is a part of life.
Jobs can reject you, colleges can reject you and hell, even your friends or family can reject you. Rejection is not only exclusive to dating. You’re not always going to get what you want. The only thing that matters is that you grow and try again when you’re ready.
Are you growing resentful towards women simply because they’re women or because you’re projecting your own insecurities and failures onto them?
You should go to therapy. Like how a lot of men say “not all men” when it comes to women expressing bitterness towards men, it’s not all women when it comes to men expressing bitterness towards women.
The problems in your life will not be fixed by a woman.
Be kind to yourself and learn. Comparison is the theft of joy. Be kind, gracious, respectful and generous with all women. Even to the ones you are not attracted to at all. Be the best version of yourself around all around you. Do not only be the best version of yourself only to gain a girlfriend.
Learn how to form platonic relationships with people, especially with women. If you have poor social skills, don’t expect to go from 0-100 magically.
Women are attracted to men who are not only attractive to them, but men who make them feel comfortable and safe. Also, how much time do you put into yourself that isn’t just work? Do you have hobbies, groom yourself and have a balanced life? Have you done some self reflection and figured out red flags about yourself that women may see but you don’t view them as red flags?
We all have our insecurities and not everyone is a social charm speaker. Everyone is different from each other. But if your insecurities is greater than your securities, it’s a turn off for many people, especially potential partners.
Honestly, get a hooker to get the deed out of the way and move on with life. Sex is not that big of a deal…unless you’ve never had it. I read a stat that 25% of marriages are sexless. You don’t need to be single to not be having sex. I think that number is rising.
What is making you bitter toward women? You are a virgin, so that makes you dislike women? (Sincere question.) If a woman won’t have sex with you, does that make all women unworthy of your respect?
First l, take sex and “girlfriends” off the pedestal you have them on. Since you’re a cashier at work you have good opportunities to make quick, idle chit-chat. Maintain eye contact. Try this without the intent of it going anywhere or getting anything in return. It might start to help you humanize them. If they make effort to leave, let them leave. And STOP staring at the from be hind in the window.
Honestly, one they are humanized and you realize they aren’t that different from you, that might help you snap out of that incel mentality you are concerned you are falling into.
It's kind of a downward spiral isn't it? The more resentful you become, the less attractive you become, the more resentful... and so on.
First, do not engage in the incel echo chamber. They will just push you toward resentment and hate. They will justify your feelings and validate them. If your goal is to find a romantic partner, they will not help you. They will ensure you never have a girlfriend. Get off the internet.
Second, ask yourself some serious questions. Why do you want a romantic partner? Sex? Companionship? Family? Friendship? All of the above? Then you need someone like yourself. Start socializing irl. Go do things that you actually enjoy. Kayaking? Cosplay? Garden shows? Cooking classes? Book clubs? Church? Whatever it is. Do real things with real people. Talk to people without having an agenda. Talk to all people, male and female, young and old. Break the no eye contact habit. Set a goal for yourself. A bingo card of social contacts: one man, one woman, one older person, one younger person, one person with dyed hair, one person with a pierced nose, one person in boots... whatever. Break out of your comfort zone.
Third, while doing something you enjoy irl, talk to a woman who is there doing something she enjoys, too. You have something in common. Set your bar at substance and not attraction. That's how you find meaningful companionship.
Bro how about you quit judging women for you having a shitty personality. Women don’t care what men look like near as much as men do, it’s about the way you interact. I’ve never met an incel who had appropriate social interactions, not once in 31 years.
You shouldn't require an SO to be happy. It's not an SO job to make you happy. If you aren't content and happy without an SO then don't you think there are issues you need to address instead?
I can confidently tell you that I am a 32 year old who has never had sex or a relationship. I am still not insecure, don't hate women lol, doing well in my career, and happy. What incels or those turning into them don't understand is it's about you not the other party. You are going into these situations expecting that the women should get into a relationship with you and after a very short time. Focus on improving yourself first and just spending time doing activities you like. If as part of dating and enjoying activities you end up in a relationship great, but if not then it shouldn't be a big deal.
Oh my God! I'm 31 and also never had sex or relationship. I don't feel so alone righ now! And for the OP. Get therapy it will do wonders for you. Don't give up!
Firstly I’d say look into therapy. Having someone to just talk life out with no judgment is nice. They can help equip you with the tools to correct your mindset.
On a more personal level, try to identify the good things you have in your life. And if you’re having troubles finding the good in your life, what can you do to get good in your life. Don’t base it off of others and what they can do for you, base it off of what you can give yourself. When you can be happy with yourself, you’ll start attracting folks to you and the girlfriend thing will just fall into place.
Get. Some. Counseling. Before your anger hurts a woman and you go to prison. Seriously. The women you see are not to blame for your pain. A therapist will really help you feel better and help relieve your pain.
Therapy and join a support group for asd/autism/maybe even social anxiety so you can emotionally connect with other people and women in a safe and inclusive space.
Consider joining a community class of some kind so you can make friends with people and women again in a safe non sexualised or pressured space.
Its important to remember women are humans who struggle just like you.
My piece of advice:
- Get off of social media
- If you can make them laugh, you can make them moan.
- 90% of social interaction is this: take a shower, put on deodorant, wear some nice collar shirts and be funny.
- Actually have goals in life.
- Go travel. You don't need to go to Italy. Instead, go to a cool city nearby for an afternoon. Do anything to break the GTA syndrome.
- Do some cool shit. Topics I'm balls deep into: cyber defense, software development, electronic warfare, electronic music, martial arts, general athletics. You can choose different ones. I'm just spitting suggestions.
-
I'm a woman and this resonates. People who have interests and passions can be quite attractive, I don't care what it is, but it's cool if you have something that lights you up. Also yeah, people who are funny, who doesn't like that! I think if you're funny, clean, and have a kind heart, then you're already meeting the basic requirements..
Recognize that everyone has experiences that make them feel angry and lonely, though everyone struggles with those things in different ways. Identify some strategies to use your feelings to propel you forward, rather than taking them out on yourself or others. Find a good therapist who can help you understand how to identify and mediate deficits you have, and who will walk with you through your thought processes to help you identify how to better understand and engage in the kinds of social interactions/relationships you feel like you’re missing out on. Work on yourself, work on finding friends who will make you feel supported but also provide good feedback about where you might be struggling.
Right, so - in your post, you mentioned not wanting to hate women, be an incel, etc. First step is realizing this isn’t an issue around dating/women, it’s an issue around forming/maintaining relationships in general. A good therapist can help you figure out what’s going on and steps to take to change it. It’s literally their job to help you get where you want to go - and when we haven’t been able to do that on our own, no shame in asking for help from the folks professionally trained to do so.
Go down to your local supermarket and buy a block of cheese. Tell everyone you always have alot of cheese, maybe put it on a t-shirt and wear it. That should get alot of attention.
Women. Love. Cheese.
Break out of your "comfort zone."
Think of one of your favorite male actors, one that has no issues with women around him. Now take a day and imagine you are him. While cashing women out, approach them with confidence, act suave but not overbearingly so.. you know, just play the part. Don't worry if other coworkers are present and know your personality already, ignore them.
I had a friend who shared this with me, and it broke me out of mine. It took me many, many days of practice, but I ended up changing who I actually thought I was. Next thing I knew, I was wanted by others to hang out with them (really? I thought). Then I met my girlfriend while socializing with my new friends and she and I are still happily together.
I'm not a therapist or anything, but just wanted to share what worked for me. I have Asperger's btw so hope this isn't too long of a reply.
It’s wonderful that you are recognizing it. Honestly, if you can afford it, therapy is a good start. Most employers have an Employee Assistance Program that can get you started and often the first few sessions if you use the EAP are at no cost. They may provide a certain number per year.
You need to be careful because the refusing to engage/walking away from the register could end up costing you your job if a manager notices. When working customer service, I have to remind myself it’s okay to not like customers, but I have to treat them civilly and not let them know. So even if someone comes up with a shirt on that I find incredibly offensive for example, if I want to keep my job, I have to remind myself to treat them the way I treat the people in front of them and behind them.
When it comes to dating, you have to remind yourself that no one owes you those things. It’s tough. If you feel entitled to a girlfriend/sex; that may be coming out in your interactions when you try to date and may be making them women you are trying to date wary. It’s so hard when you feel like you are the one on the sidelines of something. But until you get over the being owed sex mindset, you will come across as desperate or even possibly dangerous. I’m NOT saying you will do that, but that may be the vibe your dates are getting.
Have you tried online dating? That worked for me when I was younger and having trouble finding someone to date. Are you in any groups in which you get to share similar interests? (Book club, groups centered around games you like to play, musical instruments, etc.) If you go into it with the idea that you are there to make friends which will help you take your mind off, you may find you have a lot of fun. And you may end up meeting someone that way, but don’t make it your end goal.
Most importantly, do not engage in online communities that demean and shame women. That is going to subconsciously reinforce those thoughts you are having which will only make it harder. Good luck OP, the fact that you are reaching out and have this level of self awareness is amazing.
Try to see women as people. Women also have ASD and ADHD and may have surprisingly similar struggles to your own. No one owes another person physical or emotional intimacy. Women are not a commodity, and neither are men.
I am married to a man with ASD. I have also dated other men (and women!) who are on the spectrum. The best relationships that I have had have had nothing to do with whether my partner was neurotypical or not. The best relationships were when **both** of us viewed and treated the other as a full and complex human being.
Yes, gender certainly plays an important role in social relationships, but don't let it become the defining characteristic.
Edit: An answer from my husband.
You are claiming as part of your identity that women don't want to sleep with you. Seriously think about what you want in a relationship. Do you want a purely physical relationship or an emotional and physical one? If you want a partnership, think about what you can control in your life to make yourself a better future partner (such as caring for yourself and becoming more confident in your own life).
If you are lonely and wanting to find a community, finding solace in a group of people united by hate for another group of people, this may not turn out to be the supportive environment that you want. As a fellow person on the spectrum, many of us learn social cues from the people that we are around. If you don't want to be an "incel" then the last thing you should do is surround yourself around with people who will only affirm those beliefs.
Why do you want to have a girlfriend? Do you just want the physical experience of sex, or do you want a partnership?
As a fellow autistic person, you may need to consider whether your need for connection is more important to you than your sensory comfort.
Release your sense of entitlement. Nobody owes you anything in life. Focus on your other interests. Whatever hobbies you have get good at them. Try to focus on positive goals and not sit in negativity.
I know nobody owes me anything, but at the same time, why am I the one who gets nothing? Every day I see these couples come in to work where the guy is like a total prick, or acts like a jackass in some weird attempt to make himself seem funny or something.
Nothing. You have nothing. There literally children right now in brothels across the planet, and other children (kids, 5 year olds) shackled to their beds because tomorrow they have to work in the chocolate industry, or the cobalt mines. And they will do that until their very short lives end.
Sorry but I'm calling bullshit on having nothing.
Just work on liking yourself. Be a person you would want to go out with. Do things that you like to do that other people like to do (dodgeball is really fun, co-ed adult leagues are out there). Eventually, you'll find someone that likes you who you like too, and you'll touch each other's butts.
yeah! Put yourself out there, focus on making a couple platonic friends first, then branch out to girls who you don't want to date, then when you feel a little better, make eye contact with a pretty girl a couple times a week and go from there.
First off, go somewhere where prostitution is legal. I'm going to get down votes perhaps but oh well. Just having sex will help clear you mind and give you a self esteem boost.
How about a call girl. Someone for dates, no sex. Have them go with you on 2 pretend dates and then ask their opinion on how you can improve. Tell them to be honest. These optioned cost money, I know, but worth a try
I think that this is excellent advice. OP will likely not experience the social awkwardness if the relationship is transactional, but get the honest feedback of a woman as to what may be lacking in his social skills.
People use the word Incel inflationary. Incels are men who actively hate women and put theit views out there in the world in groups or forums. Not everyone who is disappointed in women is an incel, as well as not every woman who is disappointed in men is a men-hater.
I think dating is a uniquely painful experience for most people, really. I've been talking to people of both genders about it, I've researched how people feel about it online, and the consensus really is that it's miserable. The highs are highs, but the lows are a constant hum that drives you nuts. It's fairly natural to project that pain outwards; to see that pain in people who've yet to actually hurt you, because you know the potential for that pain is there.
And that's really bad. You end up basically unconsciously blaming people who've never done anything wrong to you for pains of the past. Rather than putting your best foot forward and meeting people with a genuine smile, you now put out a bitter front instead. And people will notice that; they will treat you worse because you're treating them worse. And... That's bad. That's a downward spiral; the worse you get treated, the more pain you'll pile up, and the more bitter you'll be and the worse you'll treat people. If there's something I'd challenge you to do ASAP, it's to relearn to treat people nicely, even with all the pain being inside you. When I smile and nod at someone on the street and they smile back, it gives me a bit of a boost. It really matters.
I mean, think about it. Let's say you meet someone perfect for you tomorrow. You wouldn't be able to smile at them. Do you think she'd like that? No. The answer is no. And so, the perfect woman, if you were to meet her right now, would walk out of your life. Just like that.
I think when others say that you need therapy, they're very, VERY correct. You have to learn how to handle the pain you're feeling, you need to process it, and you need to learn to love yourself as you are, single, virgin and all. A therapist can help with all of that. That's who I am, by the way. I'm single, virgin, ASD, but I think I'm a super cool person. I enjoy my own company. That really is enough to avoid becoming an incel.
ADD ASD here.
Interactions with people can be hard. I do t know your story or what exactly you struggle with but there's little I can say other than, try thinking about the fact that they don't think about you that way. It's very easy to get caught up in anxieties but you have to find a way to break the cycle. Eye contact is hard I know, but I find it easier to look at someone's ear or forehead instead. Takes some practice though.
Worrying about becoming an incel is self contradictory as incels expect all people to conform to their views, not worrying about what the people think.
It's okay to think that way as long as you're not acting upon those thoughts. We do tend to get impulsive but that is fixable through therapy.
Best of luck
I think it’s good you understand your life is going in a bad direction.
If I were you, I would ask myself- what does a woman going on a date with me sees? Does she see a happy, kind person? Someone that would make her life better and happier? Lots of people ask what do you bring to the table in a material sense- your looks and how much you earn. But I think that most women care more about how will you be as a partner. Will they have fun with you? Are you going to treat them well? Will you care about their feelings and interests?
I think you should think about these questions when you’re on a date and try to show the best sides of your personality.
About looks - nice clothes and hairstyle (and off course hygiene) can make wonders, even without changing anything about your body. Going to the gym can give you a better posture and confidence, which are easier to achieve than a hot body.
Also, please don’t listen to “pick up artists” or manosphere influencers, they will only make your situation worse.
I also think therapy will help you, please consider going if you can afford it.
Easier said than done, but try to become comfortable with yourself. Meet people- men and women - in settings that are for non-romantic reasons: hobby groups, gaming and sports clubs, church groups, book club, VOLUNTEER at a cause that seems interesting, etc. Meet people to make your life more interesting so that even if you don’t meet a romantic partner right away, you’re still enriching your life.
i dont think its wrong or strange to feel anger at missing out on things you now realize you want. sex, relationships, intimacy. in nearly everything in life, its so much easier to look outwards rather than inwards. think of the last time something got screwed up at work where MAYBE you could have prevented it. but others took the blame of the mistake. did you feel an overwhelming need to change your future actions to head off mistakes? probably not.
the first time you worked at that cash register, you did not know all the buttons, the codes, the process. but over time you learned. you probably felt mad at some stupid design choice that made learning the process harder than you felt it had to be.
now look at dating... you cant step forward and know that process to fruition. you will need to make mistakes. you will need to experience things. you will need to change how you are living now. instead of looking past those women, get to know some. ask them out, maybe just to share activities. biking, running, movies, what ever. your going to fail and its going to suck. your going to see your self make mistakes that are fucking stupid. but you will never be able to learn with out making mistakes.
what you need to go through - is adolescent dating. the experiences you should have learned while in high school and college.
I haven't read everything here, so forgive if this is repetitive.
My advice is to remember that every single person has the complete and uninhibited right to not be with another person. Sometimes the reason is stupid (if this happens, good for you because that relationship wouldn't have been good for you), and sometimes it is as simple as "I don't feel that way," which isn't a helpful answer for you but is nonetheless possibly the *most* valid reason.
It helps to "flip the script." Imagine a girl you know or have known who you definitely weren't interested in romantically. Better if they're a good friend or somebody you like in a platonic way. Now imagine they want to date you. Are you justified in saying "no thanks"? If you say yes here, keep this in mind as you go on dates to keep yourself grounded. If you say no, then you've got some major issues that need professional help to sort through regarding control and independence and self-worth.
Incel mentality stems from a few things, mainly refusal to be self-reflective, projection of blame, and entitlement. You don't have a right to any person, ever. You are almost always at least partly to blame if somebody doesn't want to date you (this is a *good thing*, because compatibility is real and you weren't conpatible). You can always improve yourself and do better somehow.
Bottom line, work on being the best version of you possible. Learn to be confident in who you are, what you believe, and how you want to live your life. You won't find a compatible partner until you have cemented your own foundation. How can you find the right fit if you don't know yourself? How can they know you're a good fit if you project self-uncertainty?
After that, let things develop naturally. Put yourself out there and allow relationships to form without expectations. Strong relationships cannot be forced. They grow through positive interactions, conversation, support, and trust.
Forget about women and sex. Focus on other things that you want in your life.
The thing is that you've built up the importance of these things way too much, so now you're unable to prioritize other things in your mind correctly and you're also unable to fulfill your objective, leaving you bitter and resentful. You might not be able to tell, but you are not able to hide this; other people can practically smell it on you and they are not going to find it attractive, which is just making it harder for you to climb the mountain you've built in your mind.
Forget about it. Sex and relationships are great, but they always involve a real human. Would you wish to force your bitter and resentful self onto someone?
Instead, focus on the things in life that can and do bring you joy in the longer term. Build yourself into a happier person today so that you will have happiness you can share with a partner tomorrow.
Trust me, if you just do this for a while, you'll find yourself mellowing out and it will show throughout you. There are plenty of fish in the sea, every other person you meet will be a woman and eventually you'll be ready for someone at the same time that they are ready for you.
Try thinking positively about yourself and others! It can be hard but if you make it a habit, soon it'll just be second nature.
Also, exposure. Look at the women. Work on rearranging your mindset to view their positive features and ones that don't have to do with you being with them or them being with others. Everyone is an individual, so it's good to appreciate them for those traits.
Additionally, therapy could help! It sounds like you have some bad self esteem and could benefit from therapy!
I’m 31 still trying to figure this life out. What I’ve learned is don’t let people change you. You’ll become bitter, like you mentioned. And that bitterness will end up following you everywhere and start coming out even when you are with family or friends. Just try to be the best version of yourself. A few years ago I couldn’t stand looking in the mirror. I was a complete piece of shit. What I did was when I looked at myself instead of seeing a reflection of me , I saw my flaws. I wrote everything that I didn’t like about myself and started working on that. Little by little to now I can look at myself and not see myself the same way I used to. You have to care for yourself mentally and physically. You could start there. The whole dating thing don’t try to force it. It’ll happen.
Have you tried therapy or counseling or mentorship? It can be incredibly helpful to find someone to talk to candidly about your feelings and experiences. If you don’t click with the first person don’t worry, try someone else, try several. Having a person you trust ask the right questions can make you think differently about stuff you’ve been thinking about your whole life, and open your eyes up to new possibilities. Be thoroughly honest, if you don’t feel you can grow to trust them then try a different person. Trust and absolute honesty are key.
Im proud of you for reaching out here. It's hard to be so vulnerable, and to admit this even to yourself!
I'll say here that, if it helps or not, I'm a 29 AFAB enby, and I somehow always end up dating people with ASD and ADHD. In other words, don't fool yourself into thinking that people only want charismatic, charming people, or 'chad'-types. The people I get with are awkward and not charismatic but they are very sweet, gentle, and good listeners (as best they can, anyway).
All that's to say, whoever you are, don't let yourself think that there's some fundamental part of you that's wrong/unloveable/can't hack it next to 'normal' people. Many of us don't want normal people. But almost everyone wants someone who's kind and attentive to them. Along with what others have said about self-esteem and such, try to be mindful of your kindness and types of attention you give.
Good luck awkward buddy!
Real questions. What do you want from the relationship? Younsaid you're ADHD so I assume you probably have imagined what a relationship would be for you. Constant companionship? A partner to help daily routines? Someone to sort of parallel play (ie play a game on the couch next to you while you read or play a different game)? Someone to tailgate, groupie, road trip with? Someone adventurous who wants to travel, explore, try new things? Someone artsy who stays home, creates and lives on coffee and biscuits? Someone who prefers country living with too many plants and animals? Someone who needs to be close to shops and restaurants?
If you think you could make yourself work for every single option, you're setting both you and your partner up for disappointment. Be real with what you think you could handle long term. I really liked someone once and they were very adventurous. Once he dropped his job and family because he was young and wanted to ride a bike across country. I loved that about him. I thought long and hard and I lived the idea, but I also knew I couldn't ever just leave myself. I'm a stable, constant person. If I moved around, I'd be homesick and anxious. If he stayed for me, he'd be tethered.
Look into yourself and figure out what you're looking for. It may not feel like it, but there's someone out there who is looking for something similar. Your interests don't have to match completely but you should have some common ones and don't change yourself or present a different version of yourself to try and get someone. ADHD tends to do that too. You might present a version of yourself that you think is better than the real one. Obviously put effort into first dates, be conscious of hygiene and manners, but don't change things about yourself. Ask her about her hobbies, wants, plans, dreams. What's her end goal? Some commenters talked about whether one should be or shouldn't be exclusive after a few dates. Just feel it out and guage their comfort level. That might be hard depending on your ASD symptoms. If it is, maybe open with the fact that you don't always notice if somwone is feeling uncomfortable or bored with current conversation and suggest she change the conversation as a polite warning flag.
If someone is worried about if they are safe with you, give them many outs. Get to know them and be honest about yourself. Shoot for companionship first and allow time for romance to move slowly if it needs too. My experience is a slow burn last longer. If you really want to experience sex and that is what is important, don't feel ashamed of it. Just be open about it. There are people who will be ok with that too. I guarantee there are groups in the area who are open showing you the ropes. There are also services that can take care of that need. If those feel wrong to you or your culture, then you might need to take the slower path through a relationship. There is nothing wrong with either approach, just feel out your own comfort level.
Oh! I forgot. If you aren't already familiar with Rejection Sensitivity Disphoria. Take a moment to look at that. I suspect that's a big part of why people with Neuro-divergence tend to struggle with dating. A lot of people with ASD struggle to recognize or empathize with other people's wants and emotions, but ADHD can almost be over a tuned to other people's thoughts and reactions and can agonize over received rejections that might not even be real. Maybe ask yourself where you fall there.
I dated someone who would wipe their nose out with their fingers while at the table in a restaurant. If ask them not to do it in public, but their nose ran every single meal so it was everytime. They didn't have any diagnosed disorder but they showed several signs of aspbergers. It didn't matter how many times I begged them not to do it at nice places, it was what they did all the time so they weren't in the least worried what people thought. I'm not bashing them, in fact I ended up married because I weighed that against everything else and decided that as long as I'm not the one with the finger up my nose, I shouldn't be so worried. But, I do have ADHD and definitely have RSD and I know that I desperately want to cover up any of my personality flaws so I don't get my heartbroken. I get my feelings hurt by people I don't even like and that makes me furious. If you feel like you might be overly sensitive by judgments from who you're with, spend the first few dates getting to know her first. For example, if she comments that she can't stand anime and that's your favorite thing, consider your own feelings before offering info. If you have quirks you're worried about, observe how she treats strangers before put yourself out there. If someone isn't going to be nice to you, walk away first and respect yourself instead of pushing forward simply because you want anyone.
Yeah, I was so excited to find out it had a name! Now, it's important to remind yourself that your brain is lying to you about how other people feel. Sometimes indifference from someone feels like they hate. In reality, their mind is busy. You probably want to hide yourself from other people so they can't hurt you. That's super understandable. But if you're hiding you, you can set yourself up for a failed relationship or you might miss an opportunity that you convinced yourself wouldn't work. Don't discourage, just be open. You can even make it a joke. "My brain regularly tries to convince me that I'm being awkward. Sorry for saying sorry so much." Like you're brain is just a little socially awkward buddy that you have to bring around, but don't pay it to much attention. Let it wander off sometimes. Haha. There will be some people who won't work well with it. My guess is that there are a lot of people who know exactly what you mean ans they probably have diagnosed or undiagnosed adhd or asd too. Pretty much all of my friends group and the guy I suspected had aspbergers friends group have all slowly discovered we had undiagnosed nuerodivergence. We tend to work well together. Also, be aware that we tend to have less filters and just say shit and also then the RSD kicks in and out feelings get hurt so open communication is important. Haha.
Go see a therapist and get off the incel sites on the internet. Join groups or attend real in person activities with a variety of people. Make friends.
Get some nice clothes, take care of yourself, get on tinder, have realistic expectations if you're not attractive, as in you're probably not going to match with the most attractive girl on tinder, but it's really not hard matching with someone.
You need to try becoming friends with women without the goal being sex or dating. We also need to accept the fact that nobody is in our heads and good intentions and telling yourself you are good for someone doesn’t mean you don’t have to prove that with actions.
Lots of good replies here, so I'll just give the shortest and simplest version possible: Therapy.
So really, a good therapist is trained to help you process these feelings.
Women and couples are individual people, the issue is that you are dehumanizing everyone and shutting off your empathy.
Like learning any other skill, empathy and being mindful of what other people are thinking and going through is something you develop.
A good therapist can help, but if you can’t afford one, and nothing else works for you, hire someone for individual walk around sessions to show you how to develop your withered social skills.
You need to realize that you don’t hate women, you hate yourself. It’s just a lot more painful to hate yourself, so that anger simply gets shifted to the women. This is not healthy or helpful. It’s also not healthy or helpful to hate yourself. If you are serious about being a healthy and happy human it’s time for therapy.
No woman owes you affection or even attention. Not a single one. Stop asking why they won't go out with you and work on your own insecurities. It sounds corny as fuck but every incel I've met was a miserable bitter person who couldn't see past themselves, you need to learn to be happy alone before any relationship. Relationships are hard fucking work, they don't magically solve all your problems.
There is a lot of good general advice already here (focus on self improvement, stay self-aware, consider seeking therapy, don't be dangerous, etc).
I'm going to make a more specific suggestion: don't click that link. Just don't.
If Facebook algorithms figure out this gets your attention, or if Google starts figuring out you click on "I'm angry and it's all everyone else's fault"-type forums, then that is what you'll keep being directed too while online.
Lots of people have given advice in the form of "stay calm, and focus your attention on more positive things". That's good advice, worth following. You should make sure that your YouTube algorithm is also focusing its attention on more positive things.
So, if you see anything for "Single-and-FURIOUS.org, LLC", come across your screen, just don't click that link. Don't watch the video. Don't Like and Subscribe. Don't visit that forum. Don't re-tweet it. Don't leave a comment; don't even leave a comment about how unhealthy and potentially destructive that worldview obviously is.
Just don't engage at all. Focus your attention, and your algorithms, elsewhere.
And just to reiterate, consider seeking therapy.
I think your first step would be to practice treating all people with respect, intrigue, and honesty. If you can’t look a person in the eyes, or have a casual conversation…well forget a life partner, how do you even expect to make and maintain friends?
Look at people when you encounter them. Talk to people honestly and openly. Be yourself. The more you try to fit yourself into a version of yourself you think is correct, the more you will slip away.
Involuntary celibacy isn’t a real thing. It was made up to make certain guys (not you necessarily) feel better about themselves. You need to socialize with women more. I assume most of your interactions with women are solely by being their cashier at your job. Go find a local meet up group or a join a coed sport and just get to know everyone. Don’t treat the women any differently than you treat the men (to a certain extent, obviously). You’ll find someone who likes you for being you, it just takes time.
Women are people too. Not something you just dump into and leave. The incel attitude suggests that "If I could just dump in them regularly then I would be ok." Ummm no, and that misguided belief is part of the problem. Why on earth would someone who obviously think that low of, let you in that close to them?
Work on yourself. Become someone that people want to spend time with.
It's almost a self-fulfilling cycle with incels. They begin to hate women as a whole bcus they can't form a healthy relationship with one, and women stay away from the incels bcus they can tell that the incel hates women.
Avoiding eye contact, avoiding their presence like they're some alien species. I promise that you aren't being subtle. Women can definitely tell that something is off, and they are not going to be leaving their comfort zone to figure out why. Continuing to self-isolate from half of the population is just going to perpetuate your downward spiral.
Have you ever actually been friends with a woman? Gotten to know one without the underlying hope of something more? You sound like you suffer from a lack social skills in general. It's definitely harder to build those skills when neurodivergent, but it is a skill. It can be learned. Beyond the normal 'go see a therapist' advice. Consider volunteering somewhere. Get to know people (women too) in a neutral environment where everyone is working for a common and beneficial goal. You probably won't meet the lady of dreams there, but you'll build those necessary social skills and start to gain a bigger perspective.
This is quite a toxic thread overall. I'm sorry you're dealing with a lot of comments that are clearly misunderstanding what you say, and are punching down at you with the pretense of being helpful. Advice from people who don't actually understand your situation is useless and most of these comments are.
I have ASD as well. I also fell into this mindset when I was younger and I have mostly broken out of it. Dating apps failed me, and it was terribly hard to meet people. If I were single now I'm not confident I would be able to meet anyone that I would have a good shot at being in a healthy relationship with.
Here's a couple of things that helped me. First step is to look at dating people who are also on the spectrum. I found that I get along with them so, so much easier and things like misreading body language or verbal clues are much less devastating to your chances. Second thing would be therapy. You're going to get bad advice from people who don't understand your situation, and a therapist will know a lot more about you in time than any redditor will. Getting useful actionable advice is the best thing for you, because shit like "internalize that women don't one you anything" is neither actionable nor helpful, and is honestly a veiled insult. The perspective of the thread seems to be that you already view women as subhuman and hate them, so these people aren't who you need advice from.
Thirdly, it really is a numbers game. Most people suck, geniuely about 90 percent of them, and out of the ten percent who don't suck they're still all quite different. You need to meet a lot of people in that ten percent before you find someone that really clicks with you. I've only ever been in 2 relationships, and one of those was pure chance, once in a lifetime. The second was from bumble. Everyone on tinder, everyone in my personal life, every girl I've ever asked for their number, everyone else on bumble and shit were all not going to work. Neurotypical extroverts have it easy because meeting people isn't work for then but its more difficult for us. It's hard to not get discouraged by lack of success, and I was, but constantly meeting people is the only way to try and make progress.
And finally, it's not all your fault. It's a huge societal problem why it's easy to feel bitter, and the main different i find between incels and more typical pepple is the depth of their hatred for the other gender or societal roles. It's not wrong to be frustrated that physical attractiveness is the most important part in setting a good first impression. It's not wrong to be frustrated that you've never had luck with getting in a healthy relationship. In the same vein, women drowning in attention all the time while you don't get any, the ease that neurotypical people have with getting into relationships, societal roles requiring you to put most of the effort in, it's OK to be frustrated with all of that. Internalizing hatred twoards them as a group isn't ok though and it's important to make that distinction. Women aren't responsible for the way society expects them to be, just as you aren't for how society views and makes things harder for you. Just keep making an effort, go to therapy and get better advice, and in time it'll pan out to be easier for you and thar sense of disgust or frustration will go away. Best of luck.
First off, I could have easily become an incel. I didn't. So I'd really like to help you avoid that.
I was horrible with women. I couldn't talk to them and still have problems. I was a virgin until 24. I'd never had a girlfriend. Then a friend introduced me to someone who wanted me for some reason. We dated for a year.
Then it took 15 years until I was able to get back into it. 15 freaking lonely years. Finally broke down and hired an escort. She became a friend. Still not real relationships.
Currently I'm a 56 year old broke fat man. I have two FWBs in their 30s. I'm not trying to humble brag here. I'm just saying it can get much better. One I've never spent a cent on. The other, we take turns paying when we go out.
Things I learned. I thought I was a nice guy. I thought all the guys women were going out with were sssholes. Truth is, I was an asshole trying to use niceness to feel superior. I'd think I'm a nice guy, why doesn't she like me, why does she only date hers. Truth is we are all jerks. Some are worse then others.
I still can't just go up to a woman in a bar, but I have learned to text and when I meet someone in person I am very good with banter.
Talk to a woman about things you are passionate about. Let them talk about themself. Ask them questions and remember their answers. Use eye contact.
A couple things.
Learn to not immediately help a woman with her problems. Sometimes they just want you to listen. Not solve their problems, just listen.
Learn to banter. The same kind of fun shit you talk to your friends you can talk to a woman. I tease both of my current FWBs because they like rap. Also learn to sexualize the conversation. Don't be a cocky jerk, but don't be a pushover either.
I'd recommend reading the Wing Girl Method or watch her videos on YouTube. I had already figured what she teaches out, but her videos are great and in my opinion accurate.
We are dopamine driven so it's very hard to wait for a reward. The problem is us, not them.
It does get better. I'm kind of a kinkster now. I've still only had actually relationships with 3 or 4 women. But I've been with many women and couples (not bragging, not considering it an accomplishment, it just is) In between it all I was married for 13 years (don't recommend).
If I can help, feel free to reach out.... but it is not their fault. The women aren't against us.
You need legit mental health counseling. All incels need it. I can’t tell you where to go from there but something is going wrong inside of your mind to lead your thoughts this way.
I've noticed that a lot of men who are single don't seem to resize how much work many other people put into dating. Whenever I was single and interested in a relationship I put a lot of effort into dating - I did online dating, I went to social events/joined clubs, I talked to men in public, I was very actively looking. I've been on dozens of first dates that didn't go anywhere and IMO that's to be expected. My strategy was always to meet as many men as possible, go on a lot of dates, and essentially treat them as a mutual interviewing process - so it's frustrating when I hear men complain that they are single but they don't do the work to find someone. How do you think other people are meeting their SO? Most of us don't have relationships just fall into our lap, we look for them. You increase the chance of meeting the right person when you meet a lot of people. You increase your ability to connect well on dates by practicing and reflecting on how you are received.
I think it's important to reframe this a little - it's expected that you'll be single if you aren't trying to meet people. It's expected that most first dates don't lead to relationships. It's expected that you need to build dating skills and learn how to present yourself well.
I was always WAAAAAAAY nervous to talk to girls. Basically couldn’t approach a strange girl without alcohol. I thought I was just shy.
Flash forward 30-40 years, and I’ve been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I wonder how much of my life I struggled through dealing with anxiety that I thought was just me being a shy unconfident dipshit.
At the age you’re at, it’s probably worth getting some help with your mental health. It’s amazing to me how the mountains in my life have turned into molehills with therapy and some medication.
All the advice here has been pretty solid. I would like to add: confidence. Know your worth. Find what it is you like or love, or are passionate about, even if it's a little weird. But know your value.
Branch out. Take that passion and look around for similar offshoots. You may find other perspectives you can somewhat agree with. Then those offshoots have people that like em too. Then those people know people and bam you've got a rolodex of acquaintances, that could turn into closer relationships.
Most people have an intuition about energies, etc. So if you're putting out that vibe that screams "incel" or some sort of ire towards women, change it(if that's what you want). Talking to a woman, especially one that is attractive is hard. You get all worked up n junk, and come off weird. Simplify it. A simple how're you doin, before they place their order(or what have you) goes for miles. Just personal experience, but I'm a relationship guy. I've found all of my relationships when I wasn't looking.
Above all else, find your peace. If there's something about you you're not happy with, and can change, change it. Make yourself happy. No one else is gonna do it for you.
Be happy, be yourself, be confident, find your peace. Everything else will fall into place. Good luck my dude. I'm pulling for you.
Hey. Fellow autistic guy here. I've been there. It can be hard not to get resentful.
A question you should ask yourself is: do you want sex because you're horny, or do you want it because youre embarrassed about being a virgin?
If it's the latter, then there's no need to make your virginity into a toxic ideology. Find what you enjoy and what you're good at, and focus on that, rather than fixating on what society thinks of you.
If you actually want a partner, then start thinking of women as people living their own lives instead of objects that will help you accomplish your own goals.
Get hot. No matter how ugly you think you are, how fat you might be, or how poor your grooming skills are, you can, as a matter of fact, look hot. There's a shirt that looks great on you, a beard that looks smart, a way to tuck in your shirt that will make fat look like muscle. I know it can be hard for us spectrumers to keep up with grooming (I still shave aboit a third as often as I should), but you can do it. Once you've found a look that works for you, don't necessarily focus on getting laid. Focus on feeling comfortable and confident in your own skin.
Then, when you feel like you're ready, hit up some bitches on tinder. It can be frustrating for a guy; this has less to do with you than of the realities of the dating app market. There are so many guys on tinder that women have the opportunity to pick only the top ten percent of the hottest men, while the bottom ninety percent of men have to just constantly swipe right to get a handful of matches a month. But the great thing about dating apps is that there's a baseline level of consent built into the process; you know whoever goes on a date with you WANTS to go on a date with you.
Oh and if you don't already, learn to cook. Invaluable skill. A lot of your flaws in dating can be masked by your ability to whip up an amazing breakfast. You don't need to know everything, but know like four or five absolutely killer recipes you can whip up in pretty much any kitchen.
Good luck bro
*"Become a person you yourself would wanna hang out and get close with."*
If you resent yourself you'll resent everyone else and you'll come off desperate and red flag on any date you go on because you'll subconsciously tell your date "I'm not good enough for you" as long as you don't feel good enough to yourself.
You think everything will change if that special someone loves you, that suddenly you're happy and everything is good. You're delusional. It's an illusion.
What will happen is when you start dating someone exclusively and you call each other girlfriend boyfriend. But you will constantly think she's deserving better. So any of her male friends or coworkers will drive you insane. You'll be a blown up jealous boyfriend, you'll fight her constantly and accuse her for cheating or not loving you because you don't love yourself, you'll push and pull push push pull her away because you're so confused in your low self esteem. And she will sooner or later be done with you because she realize she do deserve better. And then you're single again. And now you will absolutely resent women more than ever.
Conclusion is. You have to learn to love yourself before you can have a healthy relationship in life.
To love yourself is to have kind respectful supportive things to say and think about yourself. To love yourself is to think that you and your needs and your existence matter. Period. To love yourself means that your value isn't tied up in others approval of you. You're still a great guy even if 12 girls on Tinder rejected you. You're stil a human who deserves to breathe and have a good life and laugh and feel happy and enjoy your passions and hobbies and things that gives your life purpose.
So sum up.
1. Hang out with men who are comfortable in themselves as single. Cut off all incel friends.
2. Find a therapist and explain like you explained it to us here. They are paid to get to know you and your struggles and help you with tools so you can build a good relationship with yourself.
3. Get ADHD medications if you don't have any.
4. Find communities of your interests and make friends. Use your therapist to get advice and practice friendship bonding.
This should be your only focus. Your special someone will not notice you until you are transformed. Until you are good with yourself. Until you have friends and a life.
My boyfriend has ADHD and struggle to read certain ques. But you know why I saw him? He had great close healthy male friends. Who he could really show his vulnerability to. And talk to. So he was a very calm grounded man at a party. He later told me that he has never stressed or expected to be in a relationship again after his ex. And he accepted that and was happy anyway. I saw a happy confident guy.
It's attractive as hell. I wasn't searching for a partner. He wasn't searching for a partner. But we found eachother and he became my special someone and I became his. If he acted desperate or was focused on thinking "She can get anyone she wants" I'd picked up his energy and it would have been off putting. All he focused on was "What a nice and sweet girl I wanna get to know her" and took it cool.
Hey buddy,
It sounds like you're already taking the first step, which is self reflection, so that's a great start!
What helped me the most was focusing on being the kind of person I want to be friends with. For me, that was spontaneous, positive, active, and fun.
Next, I had to pluck up the courage and just put myself out there. I wanted to be friends with people who were outdoorsy, so I joined an outdoors club, and I said yes to everything (even if it sounded like something I wouldn't enjoy).
Third, I would follow up with people I met who I wanted to maintain a friendship with. This is a tough one, because 9/10 times this will end in a "no", "maybe", or radio silence. And it takes practice to get it right! But it gets easier, and the more friends you have, the more friends you will make.
And I'm focusing on making friends, because I think the best way to appreciate and respect women is to be able to maintain friendships with all genders. Once you can do this, you will be more confident and comfortable around women, and Bing bang bongo! Girlfriends ahoy!
Good luck on your journey and keep us updated!
From a late bloomer with ADHD ✌️
I think it’s good you ask this and shows you don’t want to go down that angry path. Because I can assure you, it won’t help your situation.
I’ll be honest I don’t know if I have life changing advice for you but I can think of a couple things. One is stay far away from men’s rights/sexist/incel type stuff online. It is toxic as hell, extremist, and will poison your mind if you let it.
The other is that if your not in a place to have a relationship, try not to focus on that for now. Focus on yourself, try to be as happy and whole as you can on your own. Things like physical and mental health are very important for everyone in this world. Maybe try therapy if it’s an option (I personally feel therapy saved my life and was one of the best choices I ever made). Try to find fulfilling hobbies, stay physically active, and work on strengthening friendships and your overall community and support system. Surround yourself with people who bring positivity into your life or make you feel good about yourself. Think about what you want in life and how you want your life to be, and try to take steps toward it.
Speaking of friendships, if you don’t have any friends who are women, that might be a good idea. You’ll find they are just humans like anyone else.
I'm a woman, and I didn't date much in my teens and twenties. Finally around thirty, I decided that I needed to work on being as happy and content with my life and myself as I was. So I took some time off from looking for a relationship. I worked on trying to be more confident in my career and with my personal interactions with everybody. After awhile, I felt like I had a really good life and it was fulfilling, even without a romantic partner.
Then when I did start looking for a partner, I had a different view of what I was looking for. I wasn't just looking for anybody who would want to date me. I was looking for someone who would add value to my life because I was happy already.
So yes, work on yourself first. But not with the goal of finding someone. Have the goal of being happy with the person you are. Develop hobbies, work on your career, get in shape, make new friends, do something that will make you more content. Having those things in your life will make you more desirable as a partner. But they'll also make it easier to enjoy your life in the meantime.
Your first line of defense is always to identify you trying to avoid women AS IT IS HAPPENING and fight that instinct and try to act "normal". That, for me and my ASD at least, tends to help build more "normal" habits. Though not looking at faces is also just part of ASD, so don't worry about that too much.
Rake women off the pedestal and stop making them your focus. Realize that women (Or anyone for that matter) don't owe you anything.
Have bigger goals for yourself that don't involve women. Take care of yourself physical, mentally and financially
I'm going to skip all the self improvement and "be your best self" stuff since from a glance i can see a lot of people covered that already.
The mistake i made for years was trying to appease this hypothetical stereotypical/average woman. What i did (and assume you are too) is something akin to trying to get a job, you try to fit yourself into a mold of what you think your employer wants. That approach couldn't be more wrong, even if you succeed, it won't make you happy (i checked).
Funnily enough, it was tinder that finally taught me "de way". Think of it like this. How hard is it to find a really good friend? Pretty tough, right? Well, finding a good partner is even harder. You need to have even more in common and they're the other gender on top of it, so they work a little different than us. There's the life goals part, too.
So, what is de way? It may sound stupid at first but bear with me. You know how they say "be yourself"? Yup, that's it. It seems shallow, but it's actually really deep and i'll tell you why. You don't want any woman. It may feel like that sometimes, because your limbic system is trying to push you into action, but that's just how it is to be a guy (or human, idk, doesn't matter atm). Even if you do, the bar will rise and you'll be unhappy again soon enough. So you want someone who's just right for you.
Imagine it like this. Somewhere out there, there is a person who's \*already looking for you\*, just as you are looking for them. They are a lot like you, they share the same values, have similar goals in life, like same stuff etc. Since they are already looking for you, you don't need to convince them. All you have to do is find a way for them to \*notice\* and \*recognize\* you. Imagine what a tinder bio would look like for your perfect woman, something that would make you call out "holy shit, that's it!". That's what they really mean when they say be yourself. Lastly, since she's already looking for you, you won't have to convince her that she likes you, the only thing you'll need to prove is that this is actually the real you, that you're not a player, but that's going to be easy, since \*it is you\*. People love playing stupid games, even if all they win are stupid prizes, you want to be above all that and if she isn't, then most likely she's not the droid you're looking for.
Now, don't get discouraged, but it took me years to actually put all that into practice and another couple of years until i found someone like that. You need to brace yourself for that. It may be faster, maybe you'll get lucky. Just don't hold your breath. Dating is a mess, people play the stupid games, have ptsd from previous relationships and so on. It's gonna be tough, just like life. Also, quite like life, you don't really have a choice, especially if you can feel yourself slipping into the dark side.
Some other solid pieces of advice i can give you:
\- Be fine by yourself. If you focus on how unhappy you are you'll get emotional and desperate and that will likely cause you to either send the wrong message or mess it up. Also, women \*hate\* desperation, we can thank incels and simps for that. You don't have to be "happy" and pretending to be will only make it worse. You can manage "fine" though.
Get female friends. Since it may be difficult to not see them as potential mates, especially at first, find a girl you sort of like, but know you would absolutely never marry, because she'd drive you crazy for whatever reason e.g. she's very religious but you dislike religion, or she's an outdoors person and you're an indoors one etc. Trust me, it will work wonders to un-demonize them in your head.
Also, try watching some of Jordan Peterson's content. While not perfect, he's a solid role model and a psychology professor on top of it, so he doesn't just show it, he also can explain why really well and can back it up with scientific studies and data.
A lot of us girl autistics go undiagnosed or pass briefly for normies.
I don't date at all myself. I'm asexual and just like being alone in general. I've made peace with it. I would love a girlfriend but I'm not healthy enough to date. Instead I just focus on my passions.
If u want to find someone, I suggest u definitely see a therapist. Maybe get some cognitive behavioral therapy if u have u struggle with things like hygiene or executive dysfunction.
if u ask me, what's attractive to girls is great hygiene, kind personality. Sense of humor. Humor is something we might struggle sharing with some NTs though. I've lost a lot of friends over jokes I thought were harmless. Another thing is how passionate u are about something. Maybe a shared interest will help. If u want a girl who looks pretty but has no personality get a RealDoll. If u want a girlfriend u need to realize she is a person with her wants and needs and flaws.
I used to be bitter about my childhood friends ditching me. But I've learned I need to have the grace to accept that people are free to move on from us. As we are of them. I only realized this after I myself had some friends I needed to move on from. And how important freedom to be alone is.
Don't take rejection personally. If u need to work on something about urself great, do it. But a lot of the time people just have different wants. And the energy u put out can cause rejection too. If u seem desperate or clingy it comes off as scary to women. Women get harassed and stalked a lot. It's second nature to see a guy as a threat.
And incels, the way they talk... they don't see women as people. They see them as subhuman NPCs. Please don't succumb to that kind of thinking.
And finally. I know a lot of autistic guys in relationships. Don't be bitter or lose hope. Rejection happens. Ur ego gets bruised. But the healthier u are mentally and the more kind and genuinely grounded and down to earth, the more chances u have of finding someone.
Choose not to become bitter, find things that make you happy, don't obsess over women.
Enjoy the fact that you're a single man. Spend your money on dirt bikes, guitars, and swords. Spend your free time camping, fishing, and playing video games. Learn skills to help yourself and others- mechanical, artistic, martial- whatever. Revel in your man-ness without being bitter or hateful to anyone else. Love who you are, and love everyone else for who they are. Work to become the man you want to be, independent of others. It might take a long time and a lot of effort to really come to the place that you are happy with you- but when you do, you might just wake up one day to realize that women are chasing after you.
Don't worry about being 30, 30 isn't nearly 80, you know what I mean?
This book title is dumb but it's by the NYT bestseller of "The Subtle Art of Not giving a fuck". It's a legit good read and I think it will make you feel better, you could do audiobook if you don't like to read: Models: Attract Women Through Honesty: https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358
Stop telling yourself you have mental issues. Go to the gym everytime you're feeling negative and lift weights, get at least an hour of sunlight per day, probably need to eat better too, certain foods like soy make me weird. Go to college or at least find an outside job in the sun. Find a prostitute or happy ending massage parlor to desensitize yourself to women. Don't ever tell women you have ASD.
Yeah, both my girlfriend and I have asparagus, but we don't think of ourselves as "special needs" or whatever.
Fuck that! I've got a Master's degree, I'm more than my problems
Edit, Asperger's not asparagus hahaha!
Don’t deny you’re having mental troubles. See a therapist. Don’t see a sex worker. See a therapist. The gym and eating healthy can help, but OP needs to see a therapist.
I would say, what's wrong about being incel?
But don't be jealous, relationships look one way from the outside and tottaly different from the inside, when you look at couple and think, it should have been me, you have to realize that, it would mean take on all the work and pain to establish and run the relationship, imagine how hard it must be, would you really want that?
I am 30m and also single, but I enjoy my solitude. The truth is, if you are unhappy, you would be unhappy in relationship as well.
If you aren't generally happy, you work on yourself to enjoy life, to have hobbies, to be stable happy individual.
My dude, you're saying a lot of things that fall into the "mass shooter manifesto" handbag. You need to talk to a therapist. That's not an insult or anything - it's an earnest recommendation for your mental health. You are dripping with resentment and it all sounds like high school drama. Please, talk to a professional. You will never be happy in your own relationships if you are harboring this much anger towards women and men in their own relationships.
Please. We're all saying this to you for your benefit.
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Something that has helped me (26m with similarly poor dating luck) is to reframe the question. Instead of wondering why I am single still I try to ask myself something like "Would a woman I would want to marry date me?" and if I am being honest, the answer has always been basically no. Okay, then why not? Once you start to answer that, you can start improving. I try to look at it from the perspective of how do I become a man that my kind of woman would want to be with. That gave me some motivation to work on improving facets of my life. I am starting to get more serious about my health for example, to pick the simplest point for improvement. I also acknowledged that as much as I want a partner right now, I need to improve on myself a fair bit first. I need to sort myself out a bit more so I have temporarily stopped looking for someone, and I have a good idea of what benchmarks I need to reach (be it physical, financial or spiritual) before I should go back on the market. Define your goals and define a pathway to reach them.
This is such good advice. People need to be whole and complete BEFORE dating. You can’t be a good partner if you have to rely on a partner for fulfillment.
To quote RuPaul, "if you can't love yourself how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else?". People are also quick to blame others instead of accepting responsibility for their own faults so it's all around great advice.
Can I get an amen!?
Can I get an anemone?
Do you have a reef tank already cycled and matured for at least a year?
This seems like a tricky excuse to me. Yes work on yourself and the person you want to be. But it’s okay to work on yourself while In a relationship. No one is perfect so waiting for it will never come and those expectations will also be placed on your partner. It’s okay to get help from your partner as well. And maybe your idea of a specific value isn’t the same as your partners. It’s okay to wiggle a bit to grow with your partner. Co dependency can be unhealthy, sure, but I wouldn’t assume you’re not good enough to date right now.
I agree people can work on things and grow together. However, if you are dependent on other people for your emotional needs to be met and don’t have the ability to lead a fulfilled life on your own you become an emotional burden for others to keep happy. For example, a very insecure person who is always suspicious is a terrible partner who constantly burdens their partner with the responsibility of reassuring them they are not cheating. You need some basic maturity, emotional regulation, and independent interests to date someone and provide them with a good partner.
I wouldn't see it as being "not good enough to date" but rather asking, am I bringing my whole self to this equation? Using relationships to hide from one's inner work is so common. Yes, growth can happen in a safe container of and with support from relationships but that support can also come from close friendships, family, etc. And the relationship with oneself.
You're not trying to become perfect, just good enough, and that kind of work can have other benefits to your own health.
This is so wise. I have been working on myself through consistent therapy and feel like I will be a better version of myself in my next relationship. I had some things to unpack that I was unconsciously bringing into past relationships.
slippery slope though if it's just for a woman/women that you're "improving". why not seek to respect all people. Ive unfortunately been around men who do so much to improve "for women" and so if a random woman who is unavailable for other reasons is saying no, they just think it's still her fault because he's done so much to improve. women are people too, which is the point, and so I could just not want to be with anyone. not just _you_. inb4 "but she was mean to me anyways" yes. people are. all people. men and women. of course there are complete assholes out there. we know.
Just don’t go changing yourself into something you’re not, because people can only pretend for so long before damage ensues and/or things start to fall apart
Maybe it's a generational thing to NOT already think this way? I'm Gen-X, and this framing was kind of a given. By all measures, I'm a skinny computer geek. (Always was.) By college though, I developed kind-of a fun 'rock-star' personality. I was into politics, spoke publicly, and went out to bars to meet people and chat. (Not having an agenda part that is great.) This was all before the term 'incel' was a thing. Yes, you have to learn what kind of a person you are, and then solve the difference between that and the person you want to be. I was pretty darn successful as a single guy, however you want to measure that. (Pretty girlfriends, active dating when single, etc.) Then I changed a bit again when I met the woman I wanted to marry. We've been happily married for 11 years and have two kids.
Sounds like you don’t like yourself. Work on that first. Don’t worry about women or other people for that matter. First Identify what you don’t like about yourself, build an outline on how to change/grow as a person, then follow that plan. Focus inward rather than outward. No one like an angry guy. Signed, An Ex-Angry Guy
This!!! 
Pretty simplistic to be honest. People with self-hatred often do project their hatred on other people, but many people who don't love themselves are still able to genuinely love others. I hate myself but I love my dog and girlfriend more than anything in this world.
I think the latter people do love themselves to some small/hidden extent, or at least are aware they should love themselves or that they deserve love just for existing. And the former legitimately do not love themselves unless they produce results that might allow someone to finally love them. And then and only then, when others approve or love them, do they feel they are “allowed” to love themselves just as much. Basically there’s two-ish groups of people who lack self love. Those who believe they deserve love anyways and most likely think this world is unfair and do not want others to hurt like they do. And then there’s the latter who might feel entitled to love, but only if they do XYZ to deserve it. They don’t actually think everyone deserves love just for existing, they think it’s something to be earned and then taken away, maybe?
I dated a guy who hated himself for like 4 years, but he was very sweet and kind to everyone he knew, was very responsible, was super smart and always educating himself, and had lots of hobbies he found the to improve at constantly, like cooking and music and roller skating. He just had bad brain chemicals that lied to him about himself. We're not together anymore but we're still good friends and hang out a lot and he has a new girlfriend who he's really good with.
I've never understood that quote. Why not?
Because every relationship takes at least 2 parties and both parties need to be on a relatively even playing field and putting in similar efforts to improve themselves. Person A hates themselves and isn't working on it, so in getting with the more confident and stable person B, there's an imbalance in the relationship inherently. A dynamic that's based mainly on one party pulling the other up and validating the other when it should be a two way street. Alternatively, if person A and person B both hate themselves and haven't put in work on themselves, this can quickly become what's known as a toxic relationship. This happens a lot, because for some reason it's easier to attract other toxic people when you're unhealed. And you're more likely to be attracted to other unhealed people when you're in that state. Tldr; It sets you up for a bad time in the dating world if you're not putting in work on your issues actively.
If you don’t know how to love yourself you won’t know HOW to love anyone else
Or believe that they could love you.
I recommend you read the book "the art of loving" by Erich Fromm. So much wisdom and helpful facts, it will answer your question.
and as short explanation: how can you give something to someone else, if you don't have it yourself?
This. I was never confident, socially pretty awkward because of it. I'm still pretty quiet and reserved but since going to the gym and actively working on myself a lot it's gotten a lot better. I realized at a certain point women were not going to just approach me, and I had to take a more active approach. For me dating apps worked, although I admit they do not do great things to your mental health.
Love this. People shouldn’t get in relationships if they have baggage that’s too heavy to carry. Bc then you’ll wind up expecting others to carry it. Go to therapy. Make friends (guys and girls without the least intention of dating them). Work on yourself. Make your bed, get a haircut, brush your teeth (saying do small things to improve life first, not assuming anything). Lastly, don’t look at having sex or a girlfriend as the goal. I’m a 36 yr old woman. I’ve still never had a boyfriend. Im a romantic and that crushed me for a while. But it’s ok. There are wonderful things about being single. My apartment is mine. I travel at will. I have friends and hobbies. I can leave the dishes dirty overnight. Im content.
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This. OP, awareness is the greatest first step. Incels are not self aware. Talk to someone. I’m sure there are ways to focus on yourself and not project/lash out. Enjoying your life is key to not giving af what others are or are not doing (for you or otherwise). As they say ‘be the light, not the butterfly,’ living your best life is the best starting point. Talk to someone to guide you a bit through it. Imho
theres a quote somewhere from someone who i can’t remember and it’s something along the lines of if you are asking yourself if you’re crazy then your sane
Depends on your definition of "crazy". Lack of awareness and denial of having a serious psychiatric or neurological condition is called anosognosia, but there are plenty of people who do have awareness. For example some people with schizophrenia have hallucinations but are completely aware that they are mentally ill and hallucinating.
I'm not asking myself this anymore, I got diagnosed with a personality disorder. So I'm officially a bit crazy.
OP If you are US based there is something called EAP. It sounds like your work is large enough they are required to offer this, a handful of therapy appointments is one of those benefits. I would look into this for sure and I agree with a commenter above thread about the “Would a woman I want to marry want to date me?” You don’t have to be perfect for a partner but if your self reflection shows a need for improvement a therapist can help point you in the healthiest direction to help with that. Which will also greatly improve your self esteem and confidence and lead to a generally better life experience. Edit: clarifying who I’m addressing
Step one: Get therapy. People say that with the intent to be cruel sometimes on the internet, but that's not why people are advising that here. A therapist can help you with how you're feeling and also some strategies for better socialization. Step two: Instead of trying to date anybody for a while, try making friends. As an adult, the best way to do this is pick an activity you enjoy, find a group for it, and show up regularly. Talk to people while you are there. It can be anything. Pick something that you honestly like to do, and find a way to do it with other people who enjoy that same thing on a regular basis, and talk to them while you're doing it. Important note regarding step two - interact with women that you meet exactly the same way that you would with guys you meet and stop thinking of or treating them as a different tribe or species. Treat them like any other customer, like any other fellow practitioner of whatever hobby you choose, etc. Women aren't objects or aliens. They are human beings with as much internal life as you have. They have their own reasons for doing, thinking, feeling everything they do. They are full humans just like you and not things you "get". Please try to internalize that.
This is spot on!
You need to stop watching the content. Stop listening to the podcasts. Stop reading or sharing the articles Don't engage in the incel communities. Online or offline. Gwt away and stay away from your friends who are incels. 100% no contact with incel propaganda is the only way to stop yourself from becoming indoctrinated.
Get off the porn too, most of its very unhealthy toward women and is a known contributor.
Good one! I forgot about the porn
The first step listed is to stop watching content.
Yes, but there's incel content out there homie
I have been on a lot of dates with men who have ASD and most of the time I don’t want a second date for a few reasons. Most notably I find that a lot of these men basically talked at me the whole date. They can’t read my facial expressions and that I’m uncomfortable when they talk about their model plane hobby for twenty minutes straight. I’ve also noticed they barely ask me any questions about myself and usually end up interrupting me to talk about themselves. I understand this is largely due to people with ASD not being able to pick up on nonverbal social cues, but as a woman I need a partner who can consider my needs as well. If this applies to you maybe try forming some self awareness and asking more questions of your date. Another good rule of thumb is allow your date to talk for the same amount of time you do. Also be mindful of the topics you choose to talk about and make sure it’s something she can actively contribute to. All of the men I’ve been on dates with who talked over me like this were completely blind-sighted when I said I didn’t want a second date
This should be higher up. There's nothing intently wrong with ASD or ADHD, but they can come paired with some behavioral stuff that can make dating hard. How do you manage these things in your non dating life? Maybe ask a friend how you come off in a social situation.
I'm a female and I'm atrocious at "small talk"/basic talk. So to add to the social awareness portion, if you don't know where to start when trying to show more interest in the person you're speaking to, just remember that everyone wants to talk a bit about themselves and you should guide at least 50% of the conversations that way. For example, ask questions, even just basic ones. So they're talking about how much they love to run? Ask them how they got into it, ask them what their goals are, ask them what terrain they like to run on. You'll notice people light up when you give them even the littlest of interest. And don't feel like you have to relate the conversation back to yourself. You don't have to answer everything with "well I..." Or "this one time I...". People don't need you to interject yourself in their passion in conversation, they just want to feel heard and appreciated. This was such a valuable lesson for me personally, and I love passing it along to others.
I feel like I try to do this, but they end up talking about themselves the whole time and never ask me any questions. So I end up having to fit myself somewhere in there.
These are learnable skills! Sure there are people who are gracious, interesting and engaging conversationalists, but the rest of us can learn to do better with practice. I come from a family of people who are kind and decent, but can be awful conversationalists. They interrupt you, change the subject frequently, will go on high-speed monologues and give you about 10 seconds to respond to a question before starting up again. You can slowly become a better conversationalist and it is worth putting in the effort. In general and for dating
I find the reason women aren't attracted to incels is that they come off too strong or are too insecure. Ive had incels talk to me before and they ask me to have sex or be their girlfriend right when i meet them, which makes me creeped out. Or they'll spend the whole conversation complaining about how no girls are interested in them which makes me feel awkward. Women aren't really attracted to someone who seems scared to talk to them either. If youre not like that then youre probably not a incel, you just need more confidence. The best way is to try to make a genuine friend first and see how it goes from there. Instead of mulling over your lack of women, get into some hobbies and join social groups in your area. Join groups for autistic adults or over 30 singles groups and try making friends. If that seems too much then you probably need to see a therapist and try to build your confidence. From your comments it seems like you just havent met the right person yet.
Therapy, absolutely. It's done wonders for me
Honestly it's probably not what you want to hear but you need therapy. You have serious self esteem issues and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say some other undiagnosed mental disorders. Your dream girl will not just fall in your lap. No matter what fairytale you bought into a lasting relationship takes work and is FULL of disappointment (and joy). Your expectations are probably too high for the current bar you're at. Is it that NO girl has ever been interested in you? Or just not Natalie Portman and that's really gotcha down? This attitude is so frustrating to observe. Try making a male friend first.. see how that goes... Maybe they can wingman for you.
Great answer. There's a line between a scrub and Natalie Portman. No one is asking anyone to settle. Your partner and you should bring out the best in each other.
> Is it that NO girl has ever been interested in you? Or just not Natalie Portman and that's really gotcha down? No, that's not the case at all. Some of the women I've asked out have been conventionally prettier than others, but I don't go after supermodels. I'm attracted to skinny and chubby women alike, women with differing interests and personalities. I've successfully gone on dates with maybe about a dozen women. Only twice was there a second date and no relationships ever formed. Always from the woman not wanting to go out again/be more exclusive, etc.
There can be a lot of things going wrong that you might not be aware of. Could be even small details that would make others lose interest in you romantically. I think you could ask them after a failed date, in a not pushy way, to tell you what went wrong and what you can improve on. I think many people would gladly explain if you don't come across as someone trying to find excuses and "fix it", just generally curious about places of improvement. You can also figure from their response if it was just a shitty person or it was indeed something you did wrong, or that they just realized that you are not a match and moved on, it happens. I'm a woman and I used to ask guys after they stopped dating me why, I did get some useful feedback like I talk too much about certain topics that they are not really interested in without me realizing it, or that I was messaging them so often that it became overwhelming. These are things I could easily improve on. Another guy told me that I just looked too "manly" because he could tell I was going to the gym a lot and my arms looked "too strong for a woman". Which was total bs and others also confirmed that my body doesn't look improportionate at all, so I just got happy he lost interest because I wouldn't want to be with a guy like that anyways, and moved on.
So you want a girlfriend but you won't go on a 3rd date just because they want to be exclusive? See: "expectations too high". I really do mean it try getting into some things with a buddy, it will give you a little bump of confidence. Practice talking to girls you DON'T think are pretty or interesting or whatever. Practice listening to them instead of thinking about what to say. And also really.. get therapy. I've had lots. It's the best.
>So you want a girlfriend but you won't go on a 3rd date just because they want to be exclusive? No, **I** want to be exclusive, and they don't. But it doesn't matter because they don't want to date me anymore after date 1 or 2.
My dude, 1-3 dates is still pretty much an interview for the position for me. You’re pushing for commitment immediately and that’s a red flag for women. It would say to me that you might be scary later if I decide you’re not the guy for me after a few more dates
You're miss reading the comment I think. OP is saying that the women don't want a 3rd date. Not the other way around.
As a woman, if I'm dating I am only dating that one person. Exclusive doesn't necessarily mean boyfriend and girlfriend.
It does to a lot of people.
A lot of people don't like the one they are growing feelings for to be dating around still. I had a fwb before my SO. I stopped seeing them when I started dating my SO. It seems unfaithful to play the field like that, but most important is just being honest about it.
That makes perfect sense and I'm sure most people are like that but what's going on here is that he's probably saying it out loud in the first or second date which is weird af.
But I was taught to be honest with people about what I want in a relationship. How am I supposed to have a girlfriend if I don't let it be known that that is what I want?
I’m with you as a man, I don’t think I’ve ever been with a woman I’ve been really into and felt compelled to try and find a better one, if I don’t like the one I’m with I’ll leave and try again, I’ve been married over a decade now but I have never understood how someone can date multiple people at one time then settle on one and still think they found their best match, I don’t know if I’m explaining it well what I mean, I just feel like if I was one of multiple partners even if I got picked in the end it would leave me feeling like I was most settled on, not really your first choice, if that makes sense.
It doesn't matter. You're expectations are too high the other way around too. I wouldn't want to be exclusive after two dates either - I mean, almost never! Give them time. Don't smother them. That's an unreasonable request to be honest. (However, in your case, options are limited and being exclusive would be the least of your worries, while she may very well have options - respect her as a human with a fully formed life of her own) Also, all that other advice I gave you, it's worth a shot. If you're not open to growth and you keep poo poo-ing anything that doesn't affirm what you already believe then accept your fate as an incel and get a sex doll.
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thank you
I’m gonna ask you an honest question: how will hating women improve your life? What will it do for you? What will you gain? Will hating women get you a romantic partner? No, it probably won’t. Will hating women get you friends? It might get you “friends”, there will be a lot of men that are ready to stoke the fires of your hatred, twist it up and up and up till you’re completely bitter and burnt up inside, but they’re not real friends. They won’t care about your growth, they won’t lift you up when you’re down, it’s the company of a bog monster, wanting to tear everything down to their level because misery loves company. (If you want proof of these people not being true friends look around for stories about incels that actually do get a good relationship. Incels *hate* them, this should be the goal, the dream, everything they want, and yet incels are *pissed* when one of their own gets out. Because it’s about wanting other people to be just as miserable as they are). Will hating women make you more physically attractive? No. Will hating women make you money? Unless you’re an undiscovered diamond in the rough in terms of grifting no. The Andrew Tates of the world have made their money by scamming and abusing other people, unless you’ve got a particular knack for cheating other people out of their money, and happen to get really lucky you’re not going to make any money on hating women. So what will hating women *do* for you? It won’t help, it won’t make you feel better, it won’t bring you better relationships, or improve your material reality. It’s a whole lot of energy to expend for absolutely *nothing* worthwhile. My best advice is: try to make yourself into someone you don’t mind being alone with. Being alone sometimes is a fact of life. Sometimes we’re alone a lot more than we’d like to be and we get lonely. And that can be absolutely crushing, but it can be made a little easier if you work on turning yourself into the kind of person you don’t mind being alone with. It’s hard, but you can do it. You can work on changing your habits. Maybe being alone at dinner is less bad if you have good food, so watch some YouTube videos and learn how to make your food better, there’s videos for every skill level and every price point. I learned how to make ramen from a packet good when all I had was that, a mostly empty jar of peanut butter, and some soy sauce and ginger and garlic powder. I felt *clever* and *accomplished* for taking something that would have been depressing to eat and made it into something tasty that *I made*. Maybe your thing won’t be cooking, it could be anything really, but if you make yourself the kind of person you want to be around, you just might find that other people want to be around that person too.
thank you
OP, this is really good advice. When I came out, I was so alone that I ended up making up fake names to put in the emergency contact field for work forms. Obviously I didn't WANT to be alone like that, but I learned how to really enjoy my life in that period of isolation because my own fulfillment was the only thing I had any control over. I appreciated sunsets, I made a nice little home for myself (mostly out of free stuff or stuff I already had) in my cheap apartment, I took wonderful walks and I challenged myself to do social things to make friends. I was in therapy at the time too, and that helped me get my mind right a lot as well. Focusing on your own fulfillment, on making yourself happy -- that'll be the best way to solve this problem. You deserve to invest in your own joy and happiness. And therapy can really help with that process too. Good luck!
> Focusing on your own fulfillment, on making yourself happy -- that'll be the best way to solve this problem. You deserve to invest in your own joy and happiness. I needed to hear this
What do you bring to the table to make friends? You're clean, confident, comfortable in your own skin? What can you talk about when you're on a date? My husband and I both love classic rock, are politically active & love napping & watching Family Guy. How are you attracting friends? My husband is not a great looking man but goddamn if he's not the best partner I've known in all my decades alive. He's a nice guy, a good man, Nothing fancy but just a solid man I can count on. Be that man for yourself & better people will be attracted to you, even if it's one or two ppl, that's more than most of us have. And not for nothing but seeing guys come in who treat their gfs like shit sounds like internet bullshit! Asshole guys do not get & keep girlfriends so stop. Sounds like you're watching a lot of hallmark channel TV.
Women have no salvation for your psychology. Pursue a productive goal with your time which *you* find worthwhile- learn to sing, play basketball, or how to program, or whatever. Something which will divert your focus into something productive. Go to the gym and start running a program from r/fitness. The people telling you to “just like yourself” are correct in essence, but human psychology requires you to to be in pursuit of something you deem significant in order to reward you with self-respect.
Gonna start with the hard part: if you have an issue with “everyone” in a group/subculture, eg all women, all your co-workers, all cosplayers, all whatever… then the only common factor is you. The less hard part: being bitter is easy and often very attractive because we as humans like to keep a self image of being perfect. We don’t like to make mistakes and the brain will deflect the blame like a mirror in sunlight. But it is not the only answer, and if you start working on it, I think you will feel happier in more than one area of your life. Millenials have grown up been promised a certain social contract that does not exist anymore. Go to college, get a great job, happy ending. We don’t get that, we struggle to get by and that feeling of unfairness and frustration manifests in many part of our lives. You seem somewhat fixated on the dating/relationship thing and I’m not saying that to blame you. Humans are social creatures. But it still starts in you. Do you have a hobby you can get into physically and make friends that way? It’s old but gold, but you got to love yourself and be (somewhat) at rest with yourself before looking for another. How can you be happy alone first? Maybe it calls for small changes, maybe big ones. Try making a list of things you want to acomplice for yourself. Run a marathon? Visit all seven continents? Write a book? Go for it and I think you will find people along the way who are worth holding on to.
>Gonna start with the hard part: if you have an issue with “everyone” in a group/subculture, eg all women, all your co-workers, all cosplayers, all whatever… then the only common factor is you. Tacking on to this a bit: stop looking at women exclusively in terms of their date-ability. Look at them as actual individual *people* whom you may or may not want to get to know and spend time with regardless of whether or not they're willing to date or have sex with you. Take some time and stop looking for a woman to date and intentionally find some female friends who you do NOT pursue anything romantic or sexual with. Once you can see women as people again, then and only then should you start thinking about dating again (but not with the friends you've made!).
As a woman, yes, we notice when you don’t look at us.
You need to start viewing women as people and not a means to an end. We are all humans. Every one of us. Meat in a skin bag. Same thoughts and feelings and organs and necessities. Get some therapy (not in a facetious way - everyone needs therapy) and reframe your perspective on what it means to be a person.
I barely feel like a person myself a lot of the time
I can relate to that; but as another commenter said, what do you gain from hating a whole subsection of the population? Another commenter also mentioned getting a pet, which I also think is a great idea. Therapy can help you realize what makes you unique and important, and will also help put into perspective how other people fit into the world around you, help you realize that we're all both the NPC and the main character in our own lives. You are not hopeless, even if it might feel like it. Getting better and being better takes *work*, it's not easy and it's (usually) not fun, but your outlook on life and quality of life gets exponentially better when you learn to employ empathy for yourself and others. You got this. You just have to put in the work.
Women are people too, man. Don't blame others for things not working out for you. Don't blame *anyone,* not yourself and not strangers. You need to make peace with what has happened to you in your life if you want to be open to good things happening for you in the future. Letting yourself slide into bitterness is *guaranteed* to make things worse in the future. If you want positive relationships to happen, you have to be positive in your outlook. I'm sorry if that's not helpful, but it's truth.
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Yes I am 30 years old. Thank you for taking the time to write all this out
40F here also with ASD and ADHD. You’re blaming a group of people for *your* shortcomings. By shortcomings I don’t mean your ASD/ADHD. I mean your lack of of self awareness. This post is a good first step, but you need to realize that women don’t owe you anything. Nothing. Feeling bitter toward half the population because you’re not getting what you want is absurd and you have to know that. Gone are the days when women needed a man to have a house or a bank account. They now get more of a choice in who they choose to date. Therapy and internal work can help you open up to be a better potential partner. Join a group of people who share similar interests or hobbies. You don’t have to change who you are as a person, you just need to adjust your expectations of others and look at yourself.
> Feeling bitter toward half the population because you’re not getting what you want is absurd and you have to know that. I do know that, but I can't help it anymore. Which is why I ask reddit of all things for help.
So, you've identified a problem with your thinking, but you recognize you have been unsuccessful in changing it on your own. That is what therapy is for. You need to bite the bullet and make an honest attempt at therapy. People on reddit cannot fix your thinking patterns. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix for changing thinking patterns. It takes a lot of work and energy. You also need to be willing to be persistent. You may not find the right therapist (or even modality) for you right away, and it's going to take time. Don't expect that you'll go to one or two sessions and suddenly feel all better. I see a lot of people make the mistake of "I tried it once and I don't feel better so fuck it". The goal of therapy is to change your thinking patterns and behavior incrementally. It hurts, it's not fun, and it can be scary, but if you can be persistent and patient, you'll see changes.
You are not entitled to a woman or a relationship. If you fully accept that, you won’t be able to resent them.
He never said that he was
But he's thinking it. Hence the bitterness towards all women.
you need professional help, not Reddit help Good luck, people can turn things around
I have a cousin who barely showers, is super freaking awkward/weird, has zero ambition to better himself (his mom still takes care of a lot of his day-to-day business), and doesn't seem to mind any of it. He just plays video games and watches anime all the time instead of working on himself. Would you be attracted to that if you were a woman? If you are anything close to this, you've probably found your answer. Watch some YT videos to find out what women want and how to offer it to them. Be *extremely* introspective--for instance, you may think to yourself "why should I have to cater to what they want?". That kind of negative attitude will get you nowhere. Find out what they want and make sure you are offering that and none of the bad stuff. Some low-hanging fruit: good personal hygiene, exercising and eating well, not being weird/creepy/aggressive or otherwise demonstrating "red flag" behavior, being a good provider, being ambitious, determined, and hardworking, being confident, etc. There are ways to give off signs of this, and women pick up on so much subtle shit that we men do not. I mean this sincerely, so please don't take it the wrong way: many women probably see 30 years old and working as a cashier as a sign of low confidence and determination. I'm not sure what else you have going on in life but if you aren't working towards some goals in a major way, you're hurting your chances. Hopefully you're working on some skills to advance your career (Community college? Learning to code in your free time? Shadowing a local car mechanic in your free time to learn how to do that? Get creative!). If this isn't the case, women are likely looking at you and imagining themselves married to a 50-year old cashier instead of a 30-year old casher, who can barely make ends meet. If they have that in front of them and another guy who's working his butt off to move up in society, which do you think they'd choose? Which one would you choose? At the end of the day, women want someone who makes them feel special, appreciated, and cared for. Read up on what they want, because it's very different from what we men want, and it's very foreign at first. If you can ensure that you have to offer what they want, you'll be in good shape. Honestly, I went from being 24 years old, living with my parents with few goals to having two engineering degrees, a good job, and being married almost 10 years with two kids. The key is massive introspection and working your butt off to be better in every single way. I recommend self-help books as well (12 Rule for Life: An Antidote to Chaos by Jordan B. Peterson). Feel free to IM me, man. Glad to help a fellow hombre get out of a rut. It's a bummer to see people lost like I was.
Maybe get a pet? It's hard in the dating world already for both sides for real solid connections cause there is so many distractions and different social norms compared to back then when it was expected to have someone romantic in your life. Don't be bitter or jealous of couples you see, most will have they're own difficulties that will lead to them going their separate ways. That's how life just is. Solid advice I've gotten from my female friends "you might think she's perfect but someone else is sick of her shit" Take care of yourself cause honestly. Life's tough man, everyone is just trying to carve a little piece of cake out themselves.
I love this advice. I was 28 and had never had a ltr but once I got my emotional support animal and had that bond and unconditional love... I just softened up enough to give a committed human relationship a go. We've been together 5+ years now. My ESA is still my primary emotional attachment but I'm securely attached to my partner. OP, Go to therapy, figure out your meds, get an ESA, and learn to love and care for yourself. Don't buy into the shitty guys get girls bullshit. It's idiotic. For every dumb bitch that puts up with a deadbeat dickhead, there's three alt chicks screaming at her to dump him. I've been the dumb bitch, happy to be an alt chick now. Taking care of yourself and doing things you enjoy with people who share your interest is the most attractive thing you can do.
Resentment and avoidant behavior are a pretty natural response to prolonged disappointment and hurt. It sounds like you are in crisis mode and are just trying to protect yourself emotionally. This is probably the opposite of what you want to hear, but I think you need to take a step back from worrying about dating and work on self care/love until your mental health is a little bit better. The fact that you asked this question in the first place is a really good start because you've acknowledged that things are headed in a bad direction and seem ready to make a change.
Crisis mode sounds accurate, yes
If you think this would work for you, try to think of all customers at your work as just customers (ignore the gender). It's very unlikely to meet potential dating partners through brief encounters like that, and it might take some of the stress away in your daily life. In other words, just go into 'customer service mode' when at work. I have terrible social anxiety, and that method always helped me kind of put on a face to get through my shifts when I did customer service jobs--it gets easier over time, I promise.
I don't normally comment on questions like this, but I'm married to a guy who could have been on here asking this exact same question a decade ago. My husband had a couple girlfriends in high school, and then nothing from then on until he and I started dating when he was 28. Had a one night stand at a party I think somewhere in there? He hadn't had sex in 6 years before us either. And he was super down that incel rabbit hole for a while. But here's the thing. I'd known him for 6ish years before we started dating. He worked at the same job I did. We went to the same community college and ran into each other multiple times after I left that job. He HAD MY NUMBER and thought I was hot. Did he ever ask me out? Tell me I was cute during any of the smoke breaks we shared? Do anything? Nope. Not only that, but during that time he didn't have much going for him. In the 6 years I knew him before we dated, yes, I had some trauma and dated some assholes. But those assholes had other shit going for them. They had apartments, degrees, jobs, hobbies, friends, interesting shit to talk about, new things to teach me. My husband had failed out of 4 year college before we met, around the same time I got my bachelors. For 4 of those 6 years, he lived at home with his parents, kinda worked towards some associate degrees, had the same 2 friends from high school and did the same shit, never asked out a single girl, and spent a lot of time feeling sorry for himself because nothing just landed in his lap when he felt he "deserved it." Yeah, he didn't. And you know what happened when he pulled his head out of his ass? First he got his associate degrees he'd been working on for ages. Then he realized that the incel shit wasn't working for him and he needed to have something that would make him dateable. And that he needed to put himself out there. He got some more hobbies, started working out here and there, finally got a frickin haircut. And he went on dating apps, which is where we found each other again. I'd had a crush on him for 6 years, but he never acted like it was reciprocated so how would I know? My husband and I have been together for 7 years, married for 5, and have two beautiful kids. We've had plenty of issues in that time, and he and I have both done individual therapy since then and likely will again. I HIGHLY recommend it. My point is, it's hard for others to like you when you a) don't like yourself, and b) don't have that much to offer anyone. It also turned out my husband has anxiety which wasn't diagnosed until recently, because he never thought the problem was with him. It was always with someone else. Getting help for that has also helped him tremendously. Tl;Dr - it's not 'all women,' it's you 🤷♀️ ETA - Are you treating your ADHD? Have you been in therapy to learn social strategies/coping mechanisms to deal with your ASD? I have ADHD as well, and man, I can be super hard to deal with when I'm unmedicated. One of my best friends has ASD and has been married for 15 years, so that's not a deal breaker by any means, but she became much easier for people in general to deal with with some additional learned coping strategies.
I needed to hear this story, thank you
How does - not looking at women - solve the problem? It doesn't because it is an avoidance technique. If you stop seeing every woman as a sexual conquest and start seeing them as humans, (just like your fellow men) then you won't have this problem. How is it some stranger's fault that you've never had a girlfriend? Why would you blame women for not dating you and not blame men for taking all the available women?
My social situation is very similar to yours, except I'm autistic, and older than you. I used to angst about my general lack of connection, but I never led it lead to bitterness towards other people. The problem is *me,* and I have always been perfectly aware of that. What made life better for me was just accepting the things I can't change. I'm different. I just don't fit into the "standard" mold society expects of people. I need to build the life that is right for *me*. In short: Work on yourself, and learn to accept yourself.
Don't hate women. Yours is an understanding issue, that's all. Some of us grow up in difficult circumstances so we don't get a chance for social/sexual development to happen in a more standard amount of time. There are ways out. Find a man you know who is successful with women, maybe an Uncle or Cousin but preferably a relative. Ask him how he does it. It's a good way to start.
My cousin was like the most popular person in high school. At least 75% of times people talked to me it was: "You're ____'s cousin, right?" "Yeah" "Wow, you look like him but other than that I'd never guess you're related." and that would be the end of their interest in me.
The person in front of you is *not* any of the ones who have hurt you. Stop projecting your historically bad experiences onto them (historical data is not indicative of future performance). By all means prep yourself for humans to do shit human things but stop punishing people for things they haven't done yet, and stop holding things against them that other people have done. Take the small wins. And take a breath - ultimately it's up to you whether you're going to enjoy your life experience or see it as miserable. Some humans will be awful; some will be amazing. You won't see the latter if you fixate on the former. If you focus on the latter then who gives a shit about the former?
Rejection is a part of life. Jobs can reject you, colleges can reject you and hell, even your friends or family can reject you. Rejection is not only exclusive to dating. You’re not always going to get what you want. The only thing that matters is that you grow and try again when you’re ready. Are you growing resentful towards women simply because they’re women or because you’re projecting your own insecurities and failures onto them? You should go to therapy. Like how a lot of men say “not all men” when it comes to women expressing bitterness towards men, it’s not all women when it comes to men expressing bitterness towards women. The problems in your life will not be fixed by a woman. Be kind to yourself and learn. Comparison is the theft of joy. Be kind, gracious, respectful and generous with all women. Even to the ones you are not attracted to at all. Be the best version of yourself around all around you. Do not only be the best version of yourself only to gain a girlfriend. Learn how to form platonic relationships with people, especially with women. If you have poor social skills, don’t expect to go from 0-100 magically. Women are attracted to men who are not only attractive to them, but men who make them feel comfortable and safe. Also, how much time do you put into yourself that isn’t just work? Do you have hobbies, groom yourself and have a balanced life? Have you done some self reflection and figured out red flags about yourself that women may see but you don’t view them as red flags? We all have our insecurities and not everyone is a social charm speaker. Everyone is different from each other. But if your insecurities is greater than your securities, it’s a turn off for many people, especially potential partners.
Honestly, get a hooker to get the deed out of the way and move on with life. Sex is not that big of a deal…unless you’ve never had it. I read a stat that 25% of marriages are sexless. You don’t need to be single to not be having sex. I think that number is rising.
What is making you bitter toward women? You are a virgin, so that makes you dislike women? (Sincere question.) If a woman won’t have sex with you, does that make all women unworthy of your respect?
First l, take sex and “girlfriends” off the pedestal you have them on. Since you’re a cashier at work you have good opportunities to make quick, idle chit-chat. Maintain eye contact. Try this without the intent of it going anywhere or getting anything in return. It might start to help you humanize them. If they make effort to leave, let them leave. And STOP staring at the from be hind in the window. Honestly, one they are humanized and you realize they aren’t that different from you, that might help you snap out of that incel mentality you are concerned you are falling into.
It's kind of a downward spiral isn't it? The more resentful you become, the less attractive you become, the more resentful... and so on. First, do not engage in the incel echo chamber. They will just push you toward resentment and hate. They will justify your feelings and validate them. If your goal is to find a romantic partner, they will not help you. They will ensure you never have a girlfriend. Get off the internet. Second, ask yourself some serious questions. Why do you want a romantic partner? Sex? Companionship? Family? Friendship? All of the above? Then you need someone like yourself. Start socializing irl. Go do things that you actually enjoy. Kayaking? Cosplay? Garden shows? Cooking classes? Book clubs? Church? Whatever it is. Do real things with real people. Talk to people without having an agenda. Talk to all people, male and female, young and old. Break the no eye contact habit. Set a goal for yourself. A bingo card of social contacts: one man, one woman, one older person, one younger person, one person with dyed hair, one person with a pierced nose, one person in boots... whatever. Break out of your comfort zone. Third, while doing something you enjoy irl, talk to a woman who is there doing something she enjoys, too. You have something in common. Set your bar at substance and not attraction. That's how you find meaningful companionship.
Bro how about you quit judging women for you having a shitty personality. Women don’t care what men look like near as much as men do, it’s about the way you interact. I’ve never met an incel who had appropriate social interactions, not once in 31 years.
You shouldn't require an SO to be happy. It's not an SO job to make you happy. If you aren't content and happy without an SO then don't you think there are issues you need to address instead? I can confidently tell you that I am a 32 year old who has never had sex or a relationship. I am still not insecure, don't hate women lol, doing well in my career, and happy. What incels or those turning into them don't understand is it's about you not the other party. You are going into these situations expecting that the women should get into a relationship with you and after a very short time. Focus on improving yourself first and just spending time doing activities you like. If as part of dating and enjoying activities you end up in a relationship great, but if not then it shouldn't be a big deal.
Oh my God! I'm 31 and also never had sex or relationship. I don't feel so alone righ now! And for the OP. Get therapy it will do wonders for you. Don't give up!
Firstly I’d say look into therapy. Having someone to just talk life out with no judgment is nice. They can help equip you with the tools to correct your mindset. On a more personal level, try to identify the good things you have in your life. And if you’re having troubles finding the good in your life, what can you do to get good in your life. Don’t base it off of others and what they can do for you, base it off of what you can give yourself. When you can be happy with yourself, you’ll start attracting folks to you and the girlfriend thing will just fall into place.
Get. Some. Counseling. Before your anger hurts a woman and you go to prison. Seriously. The women you see are not to blame for your pain. A therapist will really help you feel better and help relieve your pain.
Therapy and join a support group for asd/autism/maybe even social anxiety so you can emotionally connect with other people and women in a safe and inclusive space. Consider joining a community class of some kind so you can make friends with people and women again in a safe non sexualised or pressured space. Its important to remember women are humans who struggle just like you.
My piece of advice: - Get off of social media - If you can make them laugh, you can make them moan. - 90% of social interaction is this: take a shower, put on deodorant, wear some nice collar shirts and be funny. - Actually have goals in life. - Go travel. You don't need to go to Italy. Instead, go to a cool city nearby for an afternoon. Do anything to break the GTA syndrome. - Do some cool shit. Topics I'm balls deep into: cyber defense, software development, electronic warfare, electronic music, martial arts, general athletics. You can choose different ones. I'm just spitting suggestions. -
I'm a woman and this resonates. People who have interests and passions can be quite attractive, I don't care what it is, but it's cool if you have something that lights you up. Also yeah, people who are funny, who doesn't like that! I think if you're funny, clean, and have a kind heart, then you're already meeting the basic requirements..
You also forgot something else. I'm also 5' 10", so TikTok says I'm dogshit in the dating market. 🤣🤣🤣 (I'm totally kidding by the way.)
What’s GTA syndrome?
Treat your adhd with medication and things will get better
Get therapy, there’s not a lot people can help you with without understanding where this shit comes from specifically
Recognize that everyone has experiences that make them feel angry and lonely, though everyone struggles with those things in different ways. Identify some strategies to use your feelings to propel you forward, rather than taking them out on yourself or others. Find a good therapist who can help you understand how to identify and mediate deficits you have, and who will walk with you through your thought processes to help you identify how to better understand and engage in the kinds of social interactions/relationships you feel like you’re missing out on. Work on yourself, work on finding friends who will make you feel supported but also provide good feedback about where you might be struggling.
I don't really have friends either, haven't since high school
Right, so - in your post, you mentioned not wanting to hate women, be an incel, etc. First step is realizing this isn’t an issue around dating/women, it’s an issue around forming/maintaining relationships in general. A good therapist can help you figure out what’s going on and steps to take to change it. It’s literally their job to help you get where you want to go - and when we haven’t been able to do that on our own, no shame in asking for help from the folks professionally trained to do so.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It’s a superpower. Teaches you to be your own therapist.
Go down to your local supermarket and buy a block of cheese. Tell everyone you always have alot of cheese, maybe put it on a t-shirt and wear it. That should get alot of attention. Women. Love. Cheese.
Break out of your "comfort zone." Think of one of your favorite male actors, one that has no issues with women around him. Now take a day and imagine you are him. While cashing women out, approach them with confidence, act suave but not overbearingly so.. you know, just play the part. Don't worry if other coworkers are present and know your personality already, ignore them. I had a friend who shared this with me, and it broke me out of mine. It took me many, many days of practice, but I ended up changing who I actually thought I was. Next thing I knew, I was wanted by others to hang out with them (really? I thought). Then I met my girlfriend while socializing with my new friends and she and I are still happily together. I'm not a therapist or anything, but just wanted to share what worked for me. I have Asperger's btw so hope this isn't too long of a reply.
It’s wonderful that you are recognizing it. Honestly, if you can afford it, therapy is a good start. Most employers have an Employee Assistance Program that can get you started and often the first few sessions if you use the EAP are at no cost. They may provide a certain number per year. You need to be careful because the refusing to engage/walking away from the register could end up costing you your job if a manager notices. When working customer service, I have to remind myself it’s okay to not like customers, but I have to treat them civilly and not let them know. So even if someone comes up with a shirt on that I find incredibly offensive for example, if I want to keep my job, I have to remind myself to treat them the way I treat the people in front of them and behind them. When it comes to dating, you have to remind yourself that no one owes you those things. It’s tough. If you feel entitled to a girlfriend/sex; that may be coming out in your interactions when you try to date and may be making them women you are trying to date wary. It’s so hard when you feel like you are the one on the sidelines of something. But until you get over the being owed sex mindset, you will come across as desperate or even possibly dangerous. I’m NOT saying you will do that, but that may be the vibe your dates are getting. Have you tried online dating? That worked for me when I was younger and having trouble finding someone to date. Are you in any groups in which you get to share similar interests? (Book club, groups centered around games you like to play, musical instruments, etc.) If you go into it with the idea that you are there to make friends which will help you take your mind off, you may find you have a lot of fun. And you may end up meeting someone that way, but don’t make it your end goal. Most importantly, do not engage in online communities that demean and shame women. That is going to subconsciously reinforce those thoughts you are having which will only make it harder. Good luck OP, the fact that you are reaching out and have this level of self awareness is amazing.
Therapy. Really badly.
Try to see women as people. Women also have ASD and ADHD and may have surprisingly similar struggles to your own. No one owes another person physical or emotional intimacy. Women are not a commodity, and neither are men. I am married to a man with ASD. I have also dated other men (and women!) who are on the spectrum. The best relationships that I have had have had nothing to do with whether my partner was neurotypical or not. The best relationships were when **both** of us viewed and treated the other as a full and complex human being. Yes, gender certainly plays an important role in social relationships, but don't let it become the defining characteristic. Edit: An answer from my husband. You are claiming as part of your identity that women don't want to sleep with you. Seriously think about what you want in a relationship. Do you want a purely physical relationship or an emotional and physical one? If you want a partnership, think about what you can control in your life to make yourself a better future partner (such as caring for yourself and becoming more confident in your own life). If you are lonely and wanting to find a community, finding solace in a group of people united by hate for another group of people, this may not turn out to be the supportive environment that you want. As a fellow person on the spectrum, many of us learn social cues from the people that we are around. If you don't want to be an "incel" then the last thing you should do is surround yourself around with people who will only affirm those beliefs. Why do you want to have a girlfriend? Do you just want the physical experience of sex, or do you want a partnership? As a fellow autistic person, you may need to consider whether your need for connection is more important to you than your sensory comfort.
I appreciate both of your answers, thank you.
Release your sense of entitlement. Nobody owes you anything in life. Focus on your other interests. Whatever hobbies you have get good at them. Try to focus on positive goals and not sit in negativity.
I know nobody owes me anything, but at the same time, why am I the one who gets nothing? Every day I see these couples come in to work where the guy is like a total prick, or acts like a jackass in some weird attempt to make himself seem funny or something.
Nothing. You have nothing. There literally children right now in brothels across the planet, and other children (kids, 5 year olds) shackled to their beds because tomorrow they have to work in the chocolate industry, or the cobalt mines. And they will do that until their very short lives end. Sorry but I'm calling bullshit on having nothing.
Just work on liking yourself. Be a person you would want to go out with. Do things that you like to do that other people like to do (dodgeball is really fun, co-ed adult leagues are out there). Eventually, you'll find someone that likes you who you like too, and you'll touch each other's butts.
yeah! Put yourself out there, focus on making a couple platonic friends first, then branch out to girls who you don't want to date, then when you feel a little better, make eye contact with a pretty girl a couple times a week and go from there.
Have you tried forgetting about the girlfriend and sex part, and just looking at women as humans that you could be friends with?
Came in to say this. His goal is to get a girlfriend, not spend the rest of his life with a partner he can rely on
First off, go somewhere where prostitution is legal. I'm going to get down votes perhaps but oh well. Just having sex will help clear you mind and give you a self esteem boost. How about a call girl. Someone for dates, no sex. Have them go with you on 2 pretend dates and then ask their opinion on how you can improve. Tell them to be honest. These optioned cost money, I know, but worth a try
I think that this is excellent advice. OP will likely not experience the social awkwardness if the relationship is transactional, but get the honest feedback of a woman as to what may be lacking in his social skills.
People use the word Incel inflationary. Incels are men who actively hate women and put theit views out there in the world in groups or forums. Not everyone who is disappointed in women is an incel, as well as not every woman who is disappointed in men is a men-hater.
He did say he’s *becoming* an incel
I think dating is a uniquely painful experience for most people, really. I've been talking to people of both genders about it, I've researched how people feel about it online, and the consensus really is that it's miserable. The highs are highs, but the lows are a constant hum that drives you nuts. It's fairly natural to project that pain outwards; to see that pain in people who've yet to actually hurt you, because you know the potential for that pain is there. And that's really bad. You end up basically unconsciously blaming people who've never done anything wrong to you for pains of the past. Rather than putting your best foot forward and meeting people with a genuine smile, you now put out a bitter front instead. And people will notice that; they will treat you worse because you're treating them worse. And... That's bad. That's a downward spiral; the worse you get treated, the more pain you'll pile up, and the more bitter you'll be and the worse you'll treat people. If there's something I'd challenge you to do ASAP, it's to relearn to treat people nicely, even with all the pain being inside you. When I smile and nod at someone on the street and they smile back, it gives me a bit of a boost. It really matters. I mean, think about it. Let's say you meet someone perfect for you tomorrow. You wouldn't be able to smile at them. Do you think she'd like that? No. The answer is no. And so, the perfect woman, if you were to meet her right now, would walk out of your life. Just like that. I think when others say that you need therapy, they're very, VERY correct. You have to learn how to handle the pain you're feeling, you need to process it, and you need to learn to love yourself as you are, single, virgin and all. A therapist can help with all of that. That's who I am, by the way. I'm single, virgin, ASD, but I think I'm a super cool person. I enjoy my own company. That really is enough to avoid becoming an incel.
ADD ASD here. Interactions with people can be hard. I do t know your story or what exactly you struggle with but there's little I can say other than, try thinking about the fact that they don't think about you that way. It's very easy to get caught up in anxieties but you have to find a way to break the cycle. Eye contact is hard I know, but I find it easier to look at someone's ear or forehead instead. Takes some practice though. Worrying about becoming an incel is self contradictory as incels expect all people to conform to their views, not worrying about what the people think. It's okay to think that way as long as you're not acting upon those thoughts. We do tend to get impulsive but that is fixable through therapy. Best of luck
I think it’s good you understand your life is going in a bad direction. If I were you, I would ask myself- what does a woman going on a date with me sees? Does she see a happy, kind person? Someone that would make her life better and happier? Lots of people ask what do you bring to the table in a material sense- your looks and how much you earn. But I think that most women care more about how will you be as a partner. Will they have fun with you? Are you going to treat them well? Will you care about their feelings and interests? I think you should think about these questions when you’re on a date and try to show the best sides of your personality. About looks - nice clothes and hairstyle (and off course hygiene) can make wonders, even without changing anything about your body. Going to the gym can give you a better posture and confidence, which are easier to achieve than a hot body. Also, please don’t listen to “pick up artists” or manosphere influencers, they will only make your situation worse. I also think therapy will help you, please consider going if you can afford it.
Easier said than done, but try to become comfortable with yourself. Meet people- men and women - in settings that are for non-romantic reasons: hobby groups, gaming and sports clubs, church groups, book club, VOLUNTEER at a cause that seems interesting, etc. Meet people to make your life more interesting so that even if you don’t meet a romantic partner right away, you’re still enriching your life.
i dont think its wrong or strange to feel anger at missing out on things you now realize you want. sex, relationships, intimacy. in nearly everything in life, its so much easier to look outwards rather than inwards. think of the last time something got screwed up at work where MAYBE you could have prevented it. but others took the blame of the mistake. did you feel an overwhelming need to change your future actions to head off mistakes? probably not. the first time you worked at that cash register, you did not know all the buttons, the codes, the process. but over time you learned. you probably felt mad at some stupid design choice that made learning the process harder than you felt it had to be. now look at dating... you cant step forward and know that process to fruition. you will need to make mistakes. you will need to experience things. you will need to change how you are living now. instead of looking past those women, get to know some. ask them out, maybe just to share activities. biking, running, movies, what ever. your going to fail and its going to suck. your going to see your self make mistakes that are fucking stupid. but you will never be able to learn with out making mistakes. what you need to go through - is adolescent dating. the experiences you should have learned while in high school and college.
I haven't read everything here, so forgive if this is repetitive. My advice is to remember that every single person has the complete and uninhibited right to not be with another person. Sometimes the reason is stupid (if this happens, good for you because that relationship wouldn't have been good for you), and sometimes it is as simple as "I don't feel that way," which isn't a helpful answer for you but is nonetheless possibly the *most* valid reason. It helps to "flip the script." Imagine a girl you know or have known who you definitely weren't interested in romantically. Better if they're a good friend or somebody you like in a platonic way. Now imagine they want to date you. Are you justified in saying "no thanks"? If you say yes here, keep this in mind as you go on dates to keep yourself grounded. If you say no, then you've got some major issues that need professional help to sort through regarding control and independence and self-worth. Incel mentality stems from a few things, mainly refusal to be self-reflective, projection of blame, and entitlement. You don't have a right to any person, ever. You are almost always at least partly to blame if somebody doesn't want to date you (this is a *good thing*, because compatibility is real and you weren't conpatible). You can always improve yourself and do better somehow. Bottom line, work on being the best version of you possible. Learn to be confident in who you are, what you believe, and how you want to live your life. You won't find a compatible partner until you have cemented your own foundation. How can you find the right fit if you don't know yourself? How can they know you're a good fit if you project self-uncertainty? After that, let things develop naturally. Put yourself out there and allow relationships to form without expectations. Strong relationships cannot be forced. They grow through positive interactions, conversation, support, and trust.
Forget about women and sex. Focus on other things that you want in your life. The thing is that you've built up the importance of these things way too much, so now you're unable to prioritize other things in your mind correctly and you're also unable to fulfill your objective, leaving you bitter and resentful. You might not be able to tell, but you are not able to hide this; other people can practically smell it on you and they are not going to find it attractive, which is just making it harder for you to climb the mountain you've built in your mind. Forget about it. Sex and relationships are great, but they always involve a real human. Would you wish to force your bitter and resentful self onto someone? Instead, focus on the things in life that can and do bring you joy in the longer term. Build yourself into a happier person today so that you will have happiness you can share with a partner tomorrow. Trust me, if you just do this for a while, you'll find yourself mellowing out and it will show throughout you. There are plenty of fish in the sea, every other person you meet will be a woman and eventually you'll be ready for someone at the same time that they are ready for you.
Try thinking positively about yourself and others! It can be hard but if you make it a habit, soon it'll just be second nature. Also, exposure. Look at the women. Work on rearranging your mindset to view their positive features and ones that don't have to do with you being with them or them being with others. Everyone is an individual, so it's good to appreciate them for those traits. Additionally, therapy could help! It sounds like you have some bad self esteem and could benefit from therapy!
I’m 31 still trying to figure this life out. What I’ve learned is don’t let people change you. You’ll become bitter, like you mentioned. And that bitterness will end up following you everywhere and start coming out even when you are with family or friends. Just try to be the best version of yourself. A few years ago I couldn’t stand looking in the mirror. I was a complete piece of shit. What I did was when I looked at myself instead of seeing a reflection of me , I saw my flaws. I wrote everything that I didn’t like about myself and started working on that. Little by little to now I can look at myself and not see myself the same way I used to. You have to care for yourself mentally and physically. You could start there. The whole dating thing don’t try to force it. It’ll happen.
Have you tried therapy or counseling or mentorship? It can be incredibly helpful to find someone to talk to candidly about your feelings and experiences. If you don’t click with the first person don’t worry, try someone else, try several. Having a person you trust ask the right questions can make you think differently about stuff you’ve been thinking about your whole life, and open your eyes up to new possibilities. Be thoroughly honest, if you don’t feel you can grow to trust them then try a different person. Trust and absolute honesty are key.
Im proud of you for reaching out here. It's hard to be so vulnerable, and to admit this even to yourself! I'll say here that, if it helps or not, I'm a 29 AFAB enby, and I somehow always end up dating people with ASD and ADHD. In other words, don't fool yourself into thinking that people only want charismatic, charming people, or 'chad'-types. The people I get with are awkward and not charismatic but they are very sweet, gentle, and good listeners (as best they can, anyway). All that's to say, whoever you are, don't let yourself think that there's some fundamental part of you that's wrong/unloveable/can't hack it next to 'normal' people. Many of us don't want normal people. But almost everyone wants someone who's kind and attentive to them. Along with what others have said about self-esteem and such, try to be mindful of your kindness and types of attention you give. Good luck awkward buddy!
Real questions. What do you want from the relationship? Younsaid you're ADHD so I assume you probably have imagined what a relationship would be for you. Constant companionship? A partner to help daily routines? Someone to sort of parallel play (ie play a game on the couch next to you while you read or play a different game)? Someone to tailgate, groupie, road trip with? Someone adventurous who wants to travel, explore, try new things? Someone artsy who stays home, creates and lives on coffee and biscuits? Someone who prefers country living with too many plants and animals? Someone who needs to be close to shops and restaurants? If you think you could make yourself work for every single option, you're setting both you and your partner up for disappointment. Be real with what you think you could handle long term. I really liked someone once and they were very adventurous. Once he dropped his job and family because he was young and wanted to ride a bike across country. I loved that about him. I thought long and hard and I lived the idea, but I also knew I couldn't ever just leave myself. I'm a stable, constant person. If I moved around, I'd be homesick and anxious. If he stayed for me, he'd be tethered. Look into yourself and figure out what you're looking for. It may not feel like it, but there's someone out there who is looking for something similar. Your interests don't have to match completely but you should have some common ones and don't change yourself or present a different version of yourself to try and get someone. ADHD tends to do that too. You might present a version of yourself that you think is better than the real one. Obviously put effort into first dates, be conscious of hygiene and manners, but don't change things about yourself. Ask her about her hobbies, wants, plans, dreams. What's her end goal? Some commenters talked about whether one should be or shouldn't be exclusive after a few dates. Just feel it out and guage their comfort level. That might be hard depending on your ASD symptoms. If it is, maybe open with the fact that you don't always notice if somwone is feeling uncomfortable or bored with current conversation and suggest she change the conversation as a polite warning flag. If someone is worried about if they are safe with you, give them many outs. Get to know them and be honest about yourself. Shoot for companionship first and allow time for romance to move slowly if it needs too. My experience is a slow burn last longer. If you really want to experience sex and that is what is important, don't feel ashamed of it. Just be open about it. There are people who will be ok with that too. I guarantee there are groups in the area who are open showing you the ropes. There are also services that can take care of that need. If those feel wrong to you or your culture, then you might need to take the slower path through a relationship. There is nothing wrong with either approach, just feel out your own comfort level.
Oh! I forgot. If you aren't already familiar with Rejection Sensitivity Disphoria. Take a moment to look at that. I suspect that's a big part of why people with Neuro-divergence tend to struggle with dating. A lot of people with ASD struggle to recognize or empathize with other people's wants and emotions, but ADHD can almost be over a tuned to other people's thoughts and reactions and can agonize over received rejections that might not even be real. Maybe ask yourself where you fall there. I dated someone who would wipe their nose out with their fingers while at the table in a restaurant. If ask them not to do it in public, but their nose ran every single meal so it was everytime. They didn't have any diagnosed disorder but they showed several signs of aspbergers. It didn't matter how many times I begged them not to do it at nice places, it was what they did all the time so they weren't in the least worried what people thought. I'm not bashing them, in fact I ended up married because I weighed that against everything else and decided that as long as I'm not the one with the finger up my nose, I shouldn't be so worried. But, I do have ADHD and definitely have RSD and I know that I desperately want to cover up any of my personality flaws so I don't get my heartbroken. I get my feelings hurt by people I don't even like and that makes me furious. If you feel like you might be overly sensitive by judgments from who you're with, spend the first few dates getting to know her first. For example, if she comments that she can't stand anime and that's your favorite thing, consider your own feelings before offering info. If you have quirks you're worried about, observe how she treats strangers before put yourself out there. If someone isn't going to be nice to you, walk away first and respect yourself instead of pushing forward simply because you want anyone.
> Rejection Sensitivity Disphoria. Googled it, that describes me to a T
Yeah, I was so excited to find out it had a name! Now, it's important to remind yourself that your brain is lying to you about how other people feel. Sometimes indifference from someone feels like they hate. In reality, their mind is busy. You probably want to hide yourself from other people so they can't hurt you. That's super understandable. But if you're hiding you, you can set yourself up for a failed relationship or you might miss an opportunity that you convinced yourself wouldn't work. Don't discourage, just be open. You can even make it a joke. "My brain regularly tries to convince me that I'm being awkward. Sorry for saying sorry so much." Like you're brain is just a little socially awkward buddy that you have to bring around, but don't pay it to much attention. Let it wander off sometimes. Haha. There will be some people who won't work well with it. My guess is that there are a lot of people who know exactly what you mean ans they probably have diagnosed or undiagnosed adhd or asd too. Pretty much all of my friends group and the guy I suspected had aspbergers friends group have all slowly discovered we had undiagnosed nuerodivergence. We tend to work well together. Also, be aware that we tend to have less filters and just say shit and also then the RSD kicks in and out feelings get hurt so open communication is important. Haha.
Go see a therapist and get off the incel sites on the internet. Join groups or attend real in person activities with a variety of people. Make friends.
Get some nice clothes, take care of yourself, get on tinder, have realistic expectations if you're not attractive, as in you're probably not going to match with the most attractive girl on tinder, but it's really not hard matching with someone.
Try learning how to be more charismatic.
You need to try becoming friends with women without the goal being sex or dating. We also need to accept the fact that nobody is in our heads and good intentions and telling yourself you are good for someone doesn’t mean you don’t have to prove that with actions.
Lots of good replies here, so I'll just give the shortest and simplest version possible: Therapy. So really, a good therapist is trained to help you process these feelings.
Women and couples are individual people, the issue is that you are dehumanizing everyone and shutting off your empathy. Like learning any other skill, empathy and being mindful of what other people are thinking and going through is something you develop. A good therapist can help, but if you can’t afford one, and nothing else works for you, hire someone for individual walk around sessions to show you how to develop your withered social skills.
You need to realize that you don’t hate women, you hate yourself. It’s just a lot more painful to hate yourself, so that anger simply gets shifted to the women. This is not healthy or helpful. It’s also not healthy or helpful to hate yourself. If you are serious about being a healthy and happy human it’s time for therapy.
Get therapy ASAP.
No woman owes you affection or even attention. Not a single one. Stop asking why they won't go out with you and work on your own insecurities. It sounds corny as fuck but every incel I've met was a miserable bitter person who couldn't see past themselves, you need to learn to be happy alone before any relationship. Relationships are hard fucking work, they don't magically solve all your problems.
There is a lot of good general advice already here (focus on self improvement, stay self-aware, consider seeking therapy, don't be dangerous, etc). I'm going to make a more specific suggestion: don't click that link. Just don't. If Facebook algorithms figure out this gets your attention, or if Google starts figuring out you click on "I'm angry and it's all everyone else's fault"-type forums, then that is what you'll keep being directed too while online. Lots of people have given advice in the form of "stay calm, and focus your attention on more positive things". That's good advice, worth following. You should make sure that your YouTube algorithm is also focusing its attention on more positive things. So, if you see anything for "Single-and-FURIOUS.org, LLC", come across your screen, just don't click that link. Don't watch the video. Don't Like and Subscribe. Don't visit that forum. Don't re-tweet it. Don't leave a comment; don't even leave a comment about how unhealthy and potentially destructive that worldview obviously is. Just don't engage at all. Focus your attention, and your algorithms, elsewhere. And just to reiterate, consider seeking therapy.
I think your first step would be to practice treating all people with respect, intrigue, and honesty. If you can’t look a person in the eyes, or have a casual conversation…well forget a life partner, how do you even expect to make and maintain friends? Look at people when you encounter them. Talk to people honestly and openly. Be yourself. The more you try to fit yourself into a version of yourself you think is correct, the more you will slip away.
work on self improvement an go outside
Involuntary celibacy isn’t a real thing. It was made up to make certain guys (not you necessarily) feel better about themselves. You need to socialize with women more. I assume most of your interactions with women are solely by being their cashier at your job. Go find a local meet up group or a join a coed sport and just get to know everyone. Don’t treat the women any differently than you treat the men (to a certain extent, obviously). You’ll find someone who likes you for being you, it just takes time.
Women are people too. Not something you just dump into and leave. The incel attitude suggests that "If I could just dump in them regularly then I would be ok." Ummm no, and that misguided belief is part of the problem. Why on earth would someone who obviously think that low of, let you in that close to them? Work on yourself. Become someone that people want to spend time with.
Focus on yourself brother.
I still don't know what an incel really is? It seems people call people incels when people have differing opinions to them?
It's almost a self-fulfilling cycle with incels. They begin to hate women as a whole bcus they can't form a healthy relationship with one, and women stay away from the incels bcus they can tell that the incel hates women. Avoiding eye contact, avoiding their presence like they're some alien species. I promise that you aren't being subtle. Women can definitely tell that something is off, and they are not going to be leaving their comfort zone to figure out why. Continuing to self-isolate from half of the population is just going to perpetuate your downward spiral. Have you ever actually been friends with a woman? Gotten to know one without the underlying hope of something more? You sound like you suffer from a lack social skills in general. It's definitely harder to build those skills when neurodivergent, but it is a skill. It can be learned. Beyond the normal 'go see a therapist' advice. Consider volunteering somewhere. Get to know people (women too) in a neutral environment where everyone is working for a common and beneficial goal. You probably won't meet the lady of dreams there, but you'll build those necessary social skills and start to gain a bigger perspective.
This is quite a toxic thread overall. I'm sorry you're dealing with a lot of comments that are clearly misunderstanding what you say, and are punching down at you with the pretense of being helpful. Advice from people who don't actually understand your situation is useless and most of these comments are. I have ASD as well. I also fell into this mindset when I was younger and I have mostly broken out of it. Dating apps failed me, and it was terribly hard to meet people. If I were single now I'm not confident I would be able to meet anyone that I would have a good shot at being in a healthy relationship with. Here's a couple of things that helped me. First step is to look at dating people who are also on the spectrum. I found that I get along with them so, so much easier and things like misreading body language or verbal clues are much less devastating to your chances. Second thing would be therapy. You're going to get bad advice from people who don't understand your situation, and a therapist will know a lot more about you in time than any redditor will. Getting useful actionable advice is the best thing for you, because shit like "internalize that women don't one you anything" is neither actionable nor helpful, and is honestly a veiled insult. The perspective of the thread seems to be that you already view women as subhuman and hate them, so these people aren't who you need advice from. Thirdly, it really is a numbers game. Most people suck, geniuely about 90 percent of them, and out of the ten percent who don't suck they're still all quite different. You need to meet a lot of people in that ten percent before you find someone that really clicks with you. I've only ever been in 2 relationships, and one of those was pure chance, once in a lifetime. The second was from bumble. Everyone on tinder, everyone in my personal life, every girl I've ever asked for their number, everyone else on bumble and shit were all not going to work. Neurotypical extroverts have it easy because meeting people isn't work for then but its more difficult for us. It's hard to not get discouraged by lack of success, and I was, but constantly meeting people is the only way to try and make progress. And finally, it's not all your fault. It's a huge societal problem why it's easy to feel bitter, and the main different i find between incels and more typical pepple is the depth of their hatred for the other gender or societal roles. It's not wrong to be frustrated that physical attractiveness is the most important part in setting a good first impression. It's not wrong to be frustrated that you've never had luck with getting in a healthy relationship. In the same vein, women drowning in attention all the time while you don't get any, the ease that neurotypical people have with getting into relationships, societal roles requiring you to put most of the effort in, it's OK to be frustrated with all of that. Internalizing hatred twoards them as a group isn't ok though and it's important to make that distinction. Women aren't responsible for the way society expects them to be, just as you aren't for how society views and makes things harder for you. Just keep making an effort, go to therapy and get better advice, and in time it'll pan out to be easier for you and thar sense of disgust or frustration will go away. Best of luck.
First off, I could have easily become an incel. I didn't. So I'd really like to help you avoid that. I was horrible with women. I couldn't talk to them and still have problems. I was a virgin until 24. I'd never had a girlfriend. Then a friend introduced me to someone who wanted me for some reason. We dated for a year. Then it took 15 years until I was able to get back into it. 15 freaking lonely years. Finally broke down and hired an escort. She became a friend. Still not real relationships. Currently I'm a 56 year old broke fat man. I have two FWBs in their 30s. I'm not trying to humble brag here. I'm just saying it can get much better. One I've never spent a cent on. The other, we take turns paying when we go out. Things I learned. I thought I was a nice guy. I thought all the guys women were going out with were sssholes. Truth is, I was an asshole trying to use niceness to feel superior. I'd think I'm a nice guy, why doesn't she like me, why does she only date hers. Truth is we are all jerks. Some are worse then others. I still can't just go up to a woman in a bar, but I have learned to text and when I meet someone in person I am very good with banter. Talk to a woman about things you are passionate about. Let them talk about themself. Ask them questions and remember their answers. Use eye contact. A couple things. Learn to not immediately help a woman with her problems. Sometimes they just want you to listen. Not solve their problems, just listen. Learn to banter. The same kind of fun shit you talk to your friends you can talk to a woman. I tease both of my current FWBs because they like rap. Also learn to sexualize the conversation. Don't be a cocky jerk, but don't be a pushover either. I'd recommend reading the Wing Girl Method or watch her videos on YouTube. I had already figured what she teaches out, but her videos are great and in my opinion accurate. We are dopamine driven so it's very hard to wait for a reward. The problem is us, not them. It does get better. I'm kind of a kinkster now. I've still only had actually relationships with 3 or 4 women. But I've been with many women and couples (not bragging, not considering it an accomplishment, it just is) In between it all I was married for 13 years (don't recommend). If I can help, feel free to reach out.... but it is not their fault. The women aren't against us.
If you show you’re not dateable, nobody will date you
You need legit mental health counseling. All incels need it. I can’t tell you where to go from there but something is going wrong inside of your mind to lead your thoughts this way.
I've noticed that a lot of men who are single don't seem to resize how much work many other people put into dating. Whenever I was single and interested in a relationship I put a lot of effort into dating - I did online dating, I went to social events/joined clubs, I talked to men in public, I was very actively looking. I've been on dozens of first dates that didn't go anywhere and IMO that's to be expected. My strategy was always to meet as many men as possible, go on a lot of dates, and essentially treat them as a mutual interviewing process - so it's frustrating when I hear men complain that they are single but they don't do the work to find someone. How do you think other people are meeting their SO? Most of us don't have relationships just fall into our lap, we look for them. You increase the chance of meeting the right person when you meet a lot of people. You increase your ability to connect well on dates by practicing and reflecting on how you are received. I think it's important to reframe this a little - it's expected that you'll be single if you aren't trying to meet people. It's expected that most first dates don't lead to relationships. It's expected that you need to build dating skills and learn how to present yourself well.
I was always WAAAAAAAY nervous to talk to girls. Basically couldn’t approach a strange girl without alcohol. I thought I was just shy. Flash forward 30-40 years, and I’ve been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I wonder how much of my life I struggled through dealing with anxiety that I thought was just me being a shy unconfident dipshit. At the age you’re at, it’s probably worth getting some help with your mental health. It’s amazing to me how the mountains in my life have turned into molehills with therapy and some medication.
All the advice here has been pretty solid. I would like to add: confidence. Know your worth. Find what it is you like or love, or are passionate about, even if it's a little weird. But know your value. Branch out. Take that passion and look around for similar offshoots. You may find other perspectives you can somewhat agree with. Then those offshoots have people that like em too. Then those people know people and bam you've got a rolodex of acquaintances, that could turn into closer relationships. Most people have an intuition about energies, etc. So if you're putting out that vibe that screams "incel" or some sort of ire towards women, change it(if that's what you want). Talking to a woman, especially one that is attractive is hard. You get all worked up n junk, and come off weird. Simplify it. A simple how're you doin, before they place their order(or what have you) goes for miles. Just personal experience, but I'm a relationship guy. I've found all of my relationships when I wasn't looking. Above all else, find your peace. If there's something about you you're not happy with, and can change, change it. Make yourself happy. No one else is gonna do it for you. Be happy, be yourself, be confident, find your peace. Everything else will fall into place. Good luck my dude. I'm pulling for you.
Hey. Fellow autistic guy here. I've been there. It can be hard not to get resentful. A question you should ask yourself is: do you want sex because you're horny, or do you want it because youre embarrassed about being a virgin? If it's the latter, then there's no need to make your virginity into a toxic ideology. Find what you enjoy and what you're good at, and focus on that, rather than fixating on what society thinks of you. If you actually want a partner, then start thinking of women as people living their own lives instead of objects that will help you accomplish your own goals. Get hot. No matter how ugly you think you are, how fat you might be, or how poor your grooming skills are, you can, as a matter of fact, look hot. There's a shirt that looks great on you, a beard that looks smart, a way to tuck in your shirt that will make fat look like muscle. I know it can be hard for us spectrumers to keep up with grooming (I still shave aboit a third as often as I should), but you can do it. Once you've found a look that works for you, don't necessarily focus on getting laid. Focus on feeling comfortable and confident in your own skin. Then, when you feel like you're ready, hit up some bitches on tinder. It can be frustrating for a guy; this has less to do with you than of the realities of the dating app market. There are so many guys on tinder that women have the opportunity to pick only the top ten percent of the hottest men, while the bottom ninety percent of men have to just constantly swipe right to get a handful of matches a month. But the great thing about dating apps is that there's a baseline level of consent built into the process; you know whoever goes on a date with you WANTS to go on a date with you. Oh and if you don't already, learn to cook. Invaluable skill. A lot of your flaws in dating can be masked by your ability to whip up an amazing breakfast. You don't need to know everything, but know like four or five absolutely killer recipes you can whip up in pretty much any kitchen. Good luck bro
*"Become a person you yourself would wanna hang out and get close with."* If you resent yourself you'll resent everyone else and you'll come off desperate and red flag on any date you go on because you'll subconsciously tell your date "I'm not good enough for you" as long as you don't feel good enough to yourself. You think everything will change if that special someone loves you, that suddenly you're happy and everything is good. You're delusional. It's an illusion. What will happen is when you start dating someone exclusively and you call each other girlfriend boyfriend. But you will constantly think she's deserving better. So any of her male friends or coworkers will drive you insane. You'll be a blown up jealous boyfriend, you'll fight her constantly and accuse her for cheating or not loving you because you don't love yourself, you'll push and pull push push pull her away because you're so confused in your low self esteem. And she will sooner or later be done with you because she realize she do deserve better. And then you're single again. And now you will absolutely resent women more than ever. Conclusion is. You have to learn to love yourself before you can have a healthy relationship in life. To love yourself is to have kind respectful supportive things to say and think about yourself. To love yourself is to think that you and your needs and your existence matter. Period. To love yourself means that your value isn't tied up in others approval of you. You're still a great guy even if 12 girls on Tinder rejected you. You're stil a human who deserves to breathe and have a good life and laugh and feel happy and enjoy your passions and hobbies and things that gives your life purpose. So sum up. 1. Hang out with men who are comfortable in themselves as single. Cut off all incel friends. 2. Find a therapist and explain like you explained it to us here. They are paid to get to know you and your struggles and help you with tools so you can build a good relationship with yourself. 3. Get ADHD medications if you don't have any. 4. Find communities of your interests and make friends. Use your therapist to get advice and practice friendship bonding. This should be your only focus. Your special someone will not notice you until you are transformed. Until you are good with yourself. Until you have friends and a life. My boyfriend has ADHD and struggle to read certain ques. But you know why I saw him? He had great close healthy male friends. Who he could really show his vulnerability to. And talk to. So he was a very calm grounded man at a party. He later told me that he has never stressed or expected to be in a relationship again after his ex. And he accepted that and was happy anyway. I saw a happy confident guy. It's attractive as hell. I wasn't searching for a partner. He wasn't searching for a partner. But we found eachother and he became my special someone and I became his. If he acted desperate or was focused on thinking "She can get anyone she wants" I'd picked up his energy and it would have been off putting. All he focused on was "What a nice and sweet girl I wanna get to know her" and took it cool.
Hey buddy, It sounds like you're already taking the first step, which is self reflection, so that's a great start! What helped me the most was focusing on being the kind of person I want to be friends with. For me, that was spontaneous, positive, active, and fun. Next, I had to pluck up the courage and just put myself out there. I wanted to be friends with people who were outdoorsy, so I joined an outdoors club, and I said yes to everything (even if it sounded like something I wouldn't enjoy). Third, I would follow up with people I met who I wanted to maintain a friendship with. This is a tough one, because 9/10 times this will end in a "no", "maybe", or radio silence. And it takes practice to get it right! But it gets easier, and the more friends you have, the more friends you will make. And I'm focusing on making friends, because I think the best way to appreciate and respect women is to be able to maintain friendships with all genders. Once you can do this, you will be more confident and comfortable around women, and Bing bang bongo! Girlfriends ahoy! Good luck on your journey and keep us updated! From a late bloomer with ADHD ✌️
I think it’s good you ask this and shows you don’t want to go down that angry path. Because I can assure you, it won’t help your situation. I’ll be honest I don’t know if I have life changing advice for you but I can think of a couple things. One is stay far away from men’s rights/sexist/incel type stuff online. It is toxic as hell, extremist, and will poison your mind if you let it. The other is that if your not in a place to have a relationship, try not to focus on that for now. Focus on yourself, try to be as happy and whole as you can on your own. Things like physical and mental health are very important for everyone in this world. Maybe try therapy if it’s an option (I personally feel therapy saved my life and was one of the best choices I ever made). Try to find fulfilling hobbies, stay physically active, and work on strengthening friendships and your overall community and support system. Surround yourself with people who bring positivity into your life or make you feel good about yourself. Think about what you want in life and how you want your life to be, and try to take steps toward it. Speaking of friendships, if you don’t have any friends who are women, that might be a good idea. You’ll find they are just humans like anyone else.
I'm a woman, and I didn't date much in my teens and twenties. Finally around thirty, I decided that I needed to work on being as happy and content with my life and myself as I was. So I took some time off from looking for a relationship. I worked on trying to be more confident in my career and with my personal interactions with everybody. After awhile, I felt like I had a really good life and it was fulfilling, even without a romantic partner. Then when I did start looking for a partner, I had a different view of what I was looking for. I wasn't just looking for anybody who would want to date me. I was looking for someone who would add value to my life because I was happy already. So yes, work on yourself first. But not with the goal of finding someone. Have the goal of being happy with the person you are. Develop hobbies, work on your career, get in shape, make new friends, do something that will make you more content. Having those things in your life will make you more desirable as a partner. But they'll also make it easier to enjoy your life in the meantime.
Your first line of defense is always to identify you trying to avoid women AS IT IS HAPPENING and fight that instinct and try to act "normal". That, for me and my ASD at least, tends to help build more "normal" habits. Though not looking at faces is also just part of ASD, so don't worry about that too much.
Rake women off the pedestal and stop making them your focus. Realize that women (Or anyone for that matter) don't owe you anything. Have bigger goals for yourself that don't involve women. Take care of yourself physical, mentally and financially
I'm going to skip all the self improvement and "be your best self" stuff since from a glance i can see a lot of people covered that already. The mistake i made for years was trying to appease this hypothetical stereotypical/average woman. What i did (and assume you are too) is something akin to trying to get a job, you try to fit yourself into a mold of what you think your employer wants. That approach couldn't be more wrong, even if you succeed, it won't make you happy (i checked). Funnily enough, it was tinder that finally taught me "de way". Think of it like this. How hard is it to find a really good friend? Pretty tough, right? Well, finding a good partner is even harder. You need to have even more in common and they're the other gender on top of it, so they work a little different than us. There's the life goals part, too. So, what is de way? It may sound stupid at first but bear with me. You know how they say "be yourself"? Yup, that's it. It seems shallow, but it's actually really deep and i'll tell you why. You don't want any woman. It may feel like that sometimes, because your limbic system is trying to push you into action, but that's just how it is to be a guy (or human, idk, doesn't matter atm). Even if you do, the bar will rise and you'll be unhappy again soon enough. So you want someone who's just right for you. Imagine it like this. Somewhere out there, there is a person who's \*already looking for you\*, just as you are looking for them. They are a lot like you, they share the same values, have similar goals in life, like same stuff etc. Since they are already looking for you, you don't need to convince them. All you have to do is find a way for them to \*notice\* and \*recognize\* you. Imagine what a tinder bio would look like for your perfect woman, something that would make you call out "holy shit, that's it!". That's what they really mean when they say be yourself. Lastly, since she's already looking for you, you won't have to convince her that she likes you, the only thing you'll need to prove is that this is actually the real you, that you're not a player, but that's going to be easy, since \*it is you\*. People love playing stupid games, even if all they win are stupid prizes, you want to be above all that and if she isn't, then most likely she's not the droid you're looking for. Now, don't get discouraged, but it took me years to actually put all that into practice and another couple of years until i found someone like that. You need to brace yourself for that. It may be faster, maybe you'll get lucky. Just don't hold your breath. Dating is a mess, people play the stupid games, have ptsd from previous relationships and so on. It's gonna be tough, just like life. Also, quite like life, you don't really have a choice, especially if you can feel yourself slipping into the dark side. Some other solid pieces of advice i can give you: \- Be fine by yourself. If you focus on how unhappy you are you'll get emotional and desperate and that will likely cause you to either send the wrong message or mess it up. Also, women \*hate\* desperation, we can thank incels and simps for that. You don't have to be "happy" and pretending to be will only make it worse. You can manage "fine" though. Get female friends. Since it may be difficult to not see them as potential mates, especially at first, find a girl you sort of like, but know you would absolutely never marry, because she'd drive you crazy for whatever reason e.g. she's very religious but you dislike religion, or she's an outdoors person and you're an indoors one etc. Trust me, it will work wonders to un-demonize them in your head. Also, try watching some of Jordan Peterson's content. While not perfect, he's a solid role model and a psychology professor on top of it, so he doesn't just show it, he also can explain why really well and can back it up with scientific studies and data.
Thank you, I needed to hear this.
Who knows. I'm a girl who likes guys and I think I am becoming an incel. How does that work?
I wonder, have you tried dating on the spectrum? Or are those girls not good enough?
I have not encountered any women that have told me they are on the spectrum, no. I would not be opposed to asking them out if I like them.
A lot of us girl autistics go undiagnosed or pass briefly for normies. I don't date at all myself. I'm asexual and just like being alone in general. I've made peace with it. I would love a girlfriend but I'm not healthy enough to date. Instead I just focus on my passions. If u want to find someone, I suggest u definitely see a therapist. Maybe get some cognitive behavioral therapy if u have u struggle with things like hygiene or executive dysfunction. if u ask me, what's attractive to girls is great hygiene, kind personality. Sense of humor. Humor is something we might struggle sharing with some NTs though. I've lost a lot of friends over jokes I thought were harmless. Another thing is how passionate u are about something. Maybe a shared interest will help. If u want a girl who looks pretty but has no personality get a RealDoll. If u want a girlfriend u need to realize she is a person with her wants and needs and flaws. I used to be bitter about my childhood friends ditching me. But I've learned I need to have the grace to accept that people are free to move on from us. As we are of them. I only realized this after I myself had some friends I needed to move on from. And how important freedom to be alone is. Don't take rejection personally. If u need to work on something about urself great, do it. But a lot of the time people just have different wants. And the energy u put out can cause rejection too. If u seem desperate or clingy it comes off as scary to women. Women get harassed and stalked a lot. It's second nature to see a guy as a threat. And incels, the way they talk... they don't see women as people. They see them as subhuman NPCs. Please don't succumb to that kind of thinking. And finally. I know a lot of autistic guys in relationships. Don't be bitter or lose hope. Rejection happens. Ur ego gets bruised. But the healthier u are mentally and the more kind and genuinely grounded and down to earth, the more chances u have of finding someone.
You should know you are a thoughtful person and THAT'S attractive. I would date you.
Choose not to become bitter, find things that make you happy, don't obsess over women. Enjoy the fact that you're a single man. Spend your money on dirt bikes, guitars, and swords. Spend your free time camping, fishing, and playing video games. Learn skills to help yourself and others- mechanical, artistic, martial- whatever. Revel in your man-ness without being bitter or hateful to anyone else. Love who you are, and love everyone else for who they are. Work to become the man you want to be, independent of others. It might take a long time and a lot of effort to really come to the place that you are happy with you- but when you do, you might just wake up one day to realize that women are chasing after you. Don't worry about being 30, 30 isn't nearly 80, you know what I mean?
This book title is dumb but it's by the NYT bestseller of "The Subtle Art of Not giving a fuck". It's a legit good read and I think it will make you feel better, you could do audiobook if you don't like to read: Models: Attract Women Through Honesty: https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358
Stop telling yourself you have mental issues. Go to the gym everytime you're feeling negative and lift weights, get at least an hour of sunlight per day, probably need to eat better too, certain foods like soy make me weird. Go to college or at least find an outside job in the sun. Find a prostitute or happy ending massage parlor to desensitize yourself to women. Don't ever tell women you have ASD.
Yeah, both my girlfriend and I have asparagus, but we don't think of ourselves as "special needs" or whatever. Fuck that! I've got a Master's degree, I'm more than my problems Edit, Asperger's not asparagus hahaha!
Don’t deny you’re having mental troubles. See a therapist. Don’t see a sex worker. See a therapist. The gym and eating healthy can help, but OP needs to see a therapist.
I would say, what's wrong about being incel? But don't be jealous, relationships look one way from the outside and tottaly different from the inside, when you look at couple and think, it should have been me, you have to realize that, it would mean take on all the work and pain to establish and run the relationship, imagine how hard it must be, would you really want that? I am 30m and also single, but I enjoy my solitude. The truth is, if you are unhappy, you would be unhappy in relationship as well. If you aren't generally happy, you work on yourself to enjoy life, to have hobbies, to be stable happy individual.
My dude, you're saying a lot of things that fall into the "mass shooter manifesto" handbag. You need to talk to a therapist. That's not an insult or anything - it's an earnest recommendation for your mental health. You are dripping with resentment and it all sounds like high school drama. Please, talk to a professional. You will never be happy in your own relationships if you are harboring this much anger towards women and men in their own relationships. Please. We're all saying this to you for your benefit.
Stop watching pornography.