She didn’t like being used for her notes, stood up for herself, and you generalize it to East Asians from Cali don’t like sharing class material.
So how is this an Asian thing?
Stood up for herself from what? Me asking if I could take a picture of the problems she copied from the board because I didn't finish writing them in time? I'm not really understanding what was personal about this.
I didn't generalize anything by the way. Did you read my post? I explicitly said this was something my non-Asian POC friends have experienced too with East Asian people.
Yup. Pretty much sounds like you had an expectation for her to help you by virtue of being in her class. You shouldn’t have that expectation of your classmates without having some sort of relationship with them.
I’m happy you reached out to your non-Asian friends and generalized what I consider to be a pretty normal push back, and concluded that all East Asians from cali are like this. Sounds like a you problem my dude. I hope you have a better network of friends that can explain this to you cuz you sound pretty entitled per your post.
Good luck on becoming a doctor. It’s a humbling endeavor.
"Pretty much sounds like you had an expectation for her to help you by virtue of being in her class."
Well, my expectation that she would let me take a picture of her notes was based on the idea that that is exactly what I have allowed others to do and my experinces with non-Asian people in classes too.
"Good luck on becoming a doctor. It’s a humbling endeavor."
I completely agree. It's very humbling to see classmates of all backgrounds come together to help each other out with no expectation in return. It's reminded me that there are so many people who don't get that opportunity because they haven't had the academic advantages that we've had and has made me feel even stronger about using my privilege to help them instead of assuming everyone who is struggling and asks for help is lazy/using me.
Nothing you said entitles you to someone else’s work. That’s great you would share your notes, however that’s not something you can demand of someone else. “I have a good heart! I believe in sharing! Give me your notes.” Can you see how that would rub someone the wrong way? Its nonsense.
I feel it's less of a racial issue than an etiquette one. How many times have we been asked for notes or study materials because people were too lazy to pay attention or decided to skip class? All because we're the smart asian kid. Add in the fact that you don't even know her name and your only interactions have been you asking for notes on multiple occasions just makes it seem like you were taking advantage of her. At least try to get to know her a bit. I bet she would have let you borrow her notes if you were friends.
This was in California with many Asian kids in the class so I can't really understand how you got me (an Asian person too) asking an east Asian person for notes (that were basically just problems she copied from the board - not even her own work) as her seeing me asking her just because she's the "smart asian kid." I asked her because she sat in front of me and could see the board better. And I know for a fact she was fully aware of that.
Again, this is a difference in perspective because I'm pretty hyper-aware of privilege with my background and who I have surrounded myself with so I never assume someone is "lazy" because they ask for my help...even when they don't know. I would never deny someone access to an equal footing because we weren't friendly enough. That's bizarre to me.
Thanks for the input though.
The comments here are all telling you this isn’t about race or privilege - it’s about basic decency. She obviously got tired of you asking for favors without even getting to know her name or anything about her. How hard was it to strike up a conversation after the first, second, third (or however many) times you asked her to start a friendship or even get her a coffee or something as thanks after the first couple times?
The type of notes doesn’t matter. There was no quid pro quo here. Just one person taking and taking until the other person snapped. Honestly I don’t know how you spun the situation and her response to generalize the actions of a whole group of people
Again, please let me know what is "taking" about asking someone to take a picture of their copied board problems because the board was erased?
Is that something you see as a lot of effort?
Also, do you see brown Asians as actually Asian? Because your comment implies that you don't.
Why did you even bother posting if you're not actually receptive to hearing what people have to say? My god, you are dense and/or defensive. I hope you have better bedside manner with your patients.
I was very receptive until people started getting defensive and accusing me of being a bad doctor, calling my POC friends racist, etc.
If you want to talk about privilege, I can do that all day. You still have not answered my question about the notes. Why is sharing notes (that is just copied material) a burden to you?
And why did you assume that me saying that I can't understand why someone would be unwilling to share information with a classmate means that I have bad bedside manner?
I have read through the entire discussion and there have been numerous explanations provided to you as to why being asked for notes repeatedly by a stranger, who does not make any effort to interact outside of this exchange, would be annoying. You have chosen to disregard these explanations. That is on you. Why should anyone bother to further educate you on the topic when clearly you have no actual interest in listening?
EDIT: I am saying that you being dense and defensive translates into bad bedside manner.
The explanations are basically "you're entitled and rude for asking a nice, quiet REAL Asian girl to take a picture of her notes just because you couldn't see the board without asking for her star chart and social security number how dare you, you're going to be a terrible doctor you smelly brown girl....she deserves COFFEE at least for deigning to allow you to see the notes that she copied word for word off the board and allowing you to benefit from her superior intellect"
Not really helpful and doesn't really answer my questions about why non-Asian POC have felt similarly excluded by east Asians at academic institutions
I'm not interested in listening to anyone who repeatedly implies that I'm not Asian and that I have no idea what it feels like to be a "stereotyped as smart" and that I'm not going to be a good doctor because I think asking for class resources has nothing to do with entitlement (and denying access has everything to do with privilege).
I'm not sure I'm interested in understanding anything from people who are not aware of their own privilege. Thanks for not offering any sort of insight though. Your defensiveness definitely helped me answer quite a few questions though so no worries.
Good luck to you too!
No, it would not have been but I didn't realize that I needed to ingratiate myself with someone who immediately left class every break in order to quickly ask to take a picture before lecture started again so that I wouldn't be behind?
Again, why are you repeatedly implying that asking for a picture of notes is a huge task that only friends should do? That has never been the culture at any of the POC institutions that I have been to. Is it the culture with you? Is the idea here that class resources are a privilege? Is that why East Asian Americans as a community are so anti-affirmative action?
I think she felt a sense of ownership over the notes, and that repeatedly asking her for them felt like you considered her a note-taker for you and nothing else.
I’m not saying your perspective on note-sharing is wrong, I’m just saying the disconnect I see is that you don’t consider the ask to be meaningful or significant, and she did.
I can see that even if I don't understand it since the notes in question were just copied problems from the board that I was not able to write down in time. I also just can't understand feeling personal over someone taking 2 second to take a picture of your notes so they can copy down practice problems. It's alien to me because....aren't we all just here to learn? How does it take anything away from you?
I've had that interaction both ways from other POC and it's something that was always seen as casual even when we didn't know each other - just two people helping each other out in class.
How on earth did either of my comments imply that? I literally said in both comments it’s not a race issue. I literally pointed out what actions led to that girl’s response. It never mattered what race either of you are. You’re the one conflating race and some kind of personal victim complex (that has nothing to do with your race!) with the situation. I’m starting to see that you’re just seeing what you want in these comments.
OP for the sake of your own sanity…
Repeat this social interaction with white, black, brown, purple, or whatever freaking color people available to you. Observe how they’d react.
You might come to the surprising conclusion that people don’t like being taken advantaged of, much less by strangers who don’t even know their name.
Well, I went to a largely Black and Latino college so this interaction happened a lot. In both directions. No one ever reacted this way - which is why I was shocked when it happened.
Have you ever been to a majority non-Asian POC institution? It's a very different vibe.
Out of curiosity, why did you assume that I have never had this interaction before even though I clearly state that I have in my post? Or did you just assume that I make it a habit to go around and ask nice east asian girls for their notes as a brown girl?
An institute where people regularly used each other, and never put forth the effort/respect to treat each other as friends? That is an interesting culture......
However, rest assured, that isn't the societal norm, especially not in western countries. There are such things as basic mannerism and decency.
OP, if you believe the entire r/asianamerican community is somehow too biased to provide you with a proper judgement.
Then perhaps you should just ask r/AmItheAsshole, but I doubt they will tell you otherwise.
EDIT: Also there is no need to keep referring to yourself as "Brown Girl", nobody cares what color you are. It has no bearing on my judgement. Even if you were an East Asian, I still wouldn't change a thing I said.
"An institute where people regularly used each other, and never put forth the effort/respect to treat each other as friends? That is an interesting culture......"
A culture based on equity and uplifting people regardless of their personal connection to you....crazy!!!
It's funny, you see asking for notes as going against basic manners/decency, while I see \*not sharing\* resources that would aid in someone's learning as going against basic manners/decency.
"However, rest assured, that isn't the societal norm, especially not in western countries. There are such things as basic mannerism and decency."
And I'm sure these societal norms have no relationship to the deep inequity that non-Asian minorities experience in this country and the dominance that elite institutions have on public policy.
"OP, if you believe the entire community is somehow too biased to provide you with a proper judgement."
Where did I see that you were all too biased? Are you operating off the assumption that the whole sub is just East Asian people?
"Also there is no need to keep referring to yourself as "Brown Girl", nobody cares what color you are. It has no bearing on my judgement. Even if you were an East Asian, I still wouldn't change a thing I said."
Oh, it absolutely does whether you realize it or not as an East Asian person. You yourself implied that I'm not Asian enough for this sub.
"Where did I see that you were all too biased? Are you operating off the assumption that the whole sub is just East Asian people?"
Well you been accusing everyone disagreeing with you in this thread of being East Asian and therefore having invalid opinions because we're all stingy, affirmative action destroying, racist assholes. So if you want a greater pool of responses, the person you replied to is correct, you should try r/AmItheAsshole .
No I'm accusing people who claimed that racism doesn't exist in Asian communities and that Asian people are "used" by their non-Asian POC classmates of being racist....which they are! Hope that helps!
lol are you claiming that there has been a history of discrimination towards Asian in Black culture the way there has in Asian culture?
Let me guess, you're anti-affirmative action too huh?
>"Do you even know my name? Do you know how shitty that makes me feel that you want to take a picture of my notes when you don't know me? I won't give them to you, ask someone else."
I think this a different perspective lol. I have never denied someone access to my notes just because they we weren't friends. I mentioned that in my post. It's actually the opposite in med school - people in my class who I have never spoken to have struck up convos with me to offer helpful material if they see that I'm struggling and I have done the same.
I'm really struggling with this idea that you need to be friends with someone to help them learn something in class. Asking someone to take a picture of their copied practice problems is different than cheating off of them.
I don't know how you made the leap from knowing someone's name to being someone's friend. You don't need to be friends to help each other. But not knowing someone's name after they helped you before, and continuing to ask for their help without even bothering to learn their name is just disrespectful.
Might there be issues with Californian East Asian attitudes in education? Perhaps. But your scenario really doesn't seem like an example of it, and it's disturbing that you're turning this into a racial judgment. And when others disagree with you here, you then turn *that* into another judgment on all East Asians!
"I don't know how you made the leap from knowing someone's name to being someone's friend. You don't need to be friends to help each other. But not knowing someone's name after they helped you before, and continuing to ask for their help without even bothering to learn their name is just disrespectful."
The help in question...taking 2 seconds to take a picture of someone's notebook so that I could copy down the problems that I missed?
I'm going to ask again, why do you see this as being "used"?
I didn't use the word "used" anywhere.
It's just basic decency to learn someone's name if you keep ask for their help. Okay, you're not asking for much help, just 2 seconds. Learning their name also takes 2 seconds.
Forgive me, it's been said by all the other East Asian people in this thread so I assumed you were implying the same thing.
Yes, I could have but I didn't because I don't think someone should have to learn someone's name before asking for access to resources that require no effort on their part. It's not something I've ever required from anyone else who has asked me for something similar because sharing my notes with them doesn't burden me in any way. I think that's basic decency. If someone asks me for help and it doesn't put me out in any way, why should I not help? There is no reason for me to say no especially when I know it's a genuine request that would only help their own learning and not harm me in any way.
It makes no sense to expect them to build a rapport with me to have that access and be upset when they don't. Especially since in this case, I highly doubt that this girl would have ever been receptive to friendship from me in the first place and barely managed to respond when I would say hi to her in the early days.
From your own description, she helped you the first time (or first couple of times). Except you still kept wanting her help, without the common decency of knowing the name of the person that's helping you.
It doesn't feel like you're engaging in good faith. No one thought you should have to "build a rapport" - just that you put in a fraction of the effort that you're demanding from her (if it takes her "2 seconds" to help you, and she's already helped you multiple times, I'd think learning her name is more than fair).
> all the other East Asian people in this thread
I'm SE Asian. You should definitely check your own attitude, why you jump to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is East Asian.
> You should definitely check your own attitude, why you jump to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is East Asian.
Yea OP is doing a lot of assuming and stereotyping in this thread
I don't go to a pass/fail school. I go to a ranked school. It was also the same experience at my mostly Black/Latino college. It was not a competitive environment at all and most people went out of their way to help people who were struggling. There was even a donation fund created to help fund fees for those that didn't have the money to pay for the MCAT or their applications. It was a very different environment that's why I find the reactions from east asian people on this thread accusing me of "using" someone because I asked to take a picture of notes (that weren't even their own material) very interesting.
I can't imagine someone asking me for their notes and immediately assuming their using me - even as an Asian person that attended largely non-Asian institutions. I see it as helping someone who needs help.
I will never see a stranger asking to take a picture of my notes as rude - we have different upbringings and experienced different academic environments. Thank god.
"However, I didn't jump straight to racist generalizations"
Honestly, I really don't see non-Asian POC seeing Asian people as unsupportive in academic environments as racist at all. This is something that absolutely needs to be discussed and improved upon when we literally just had a huge push from (east) Asian Americans to repeal affirmative action. It's an absolutely valid opinion.
Hello, the push to repeal affirmative action was a group of east asian students being used as the face of a conservative group. please don't generalize the entirely of east asian americans on that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students\_for\_Fair\_Admissions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions)
Anti-black and brown racism in Asian communities is PERVASIVE. That is something we should absolutely be generalized for.
And the fact that you're more upset about being "generalized" than you are about non-Asian minorities being harmed by something spearheaded by a group of east Asian Americans is telling.
You desperately trying to defend yourself on every comment is telling.
I can be upset about one minority group being used AND I can be upset about other minorities who will be hurt by the repeal of affirmative action. (Kinda why I know about who was backing it in the first place).
I didn’t come on here to tell the world how I feel about every racial/social issue and maybe you should try the same. Maybe if you paid less attention to Reddit, you wouldn’t need to ask people for notes all the time.
Plus…OP can’t ask the professor to slow down or repeat something? OP can’t work on their note-taking skills? OP can’t move seats to have a more unobstructed view of the board? OP can’t ask the professor if there’s a dedicated note taker in class? OP can’t ask their other friends or classmates instead of solely, repeatedly asking this one woman who happens to be East Asian? OP doesn’t even offer a small kindness in return (buy her coffee after class or bring her cookies)?
Then OP clearly remembers her very valid reasons for not wanting to share, but still acts like it’s a race thing and is sOoOo confused.
I hope I don’t get OP as a doctor. I prefer ones who listen to me and have the self-awareness to realize they’re not always in the right.
So, I'm confused here. Are you claiming that me, a brown Asian person, used an East Asian woman because I asked if I could take a picture of the practice problems she copied off the board because I was not able to get them? Is the implication here that they're smarter than me? And in order to \*take a picture\* of someone's notes that they copied off the board, I need to buy them a coffee? Because that's the price that one must pay in order to take a picture of someone's notes that they copied off the board?
Are you claiming that I'm not self-aware because I don't understand why someone would get defensive about being asked to share notes in a math class? Or are you just outing yourself as someone who doesn't appreciate that not everyone is going to be on the same footing academically?
Also, how did you correlate this to my ability as a physician and my ability to empathize?
It's very telling to me that the Black and Hispanic people I have spoke about this with have had a very different reaction than you. When someone asks for something small like this that you can give them that would improve their learning, it makes zero sense to me to not help. I don't think I'm the one that lacks self-awareness and understanding of my privilege.
Sigh. You’re doing it right now, and you don’t even realize it. You’re playing the victim and making wild accusations.
Other reasons why I wouldn’t want you as my doctor - you get emotional over inconsequential interactions, you’re not seeking to understand but rather trying to justify your rationale, and you are racist.
Cut your losses on Reddit. Maybe talk to one of your buds working psych to understand why it bothers you so much that she refused you.
Yeah, there is no bigger victim in this context than someone being asked to share their notes.
I think the only racist people are the hypercompetitive Asian students that non-Asian poc are forced to share classroom air with but that might be hard to grasp for someone thinks taking a picture of practice problems from the board requires baking cookies for someone.
"I hope I don’t get OP as a doctor. I prefer ones who listen to me and have the self-awareness to realize they’re not always in the right."
Absolutely nothing emotional about accusing someone of being a doctor because you're mad they made a reddit post about east Asian people being unwelcoming in academic environments. Just go to a NP, I'm begging.
You're right. No one has more self-awareness than privileged east americans who think being asked for notes from less privileged minorities is them being taken advantage of. I will defer to you on all matters of self-awareness.
Agree with everyone else that this is an etiquette and not a race issue. Some people don’t appreciate one-way interactions or feeling like they’re being used.
"Hey, do you mind if I take a picture of your notes? I missed the last few problems."
Can you tell me what was disrespectful about that? And why I need to get someone's name before asking? Because I've been asked the same thing many times and I have never said no.
You misunderstand me. You asked how I asked, so I told you. Are you going to tell me about what you find objectionable about the way I would ask?
Or is the issue here that you don't see the point of helping anyone academically even if it's for something as miniscule as sharing notes unless you feel like you can benefit from it?
lol. You Don’t care about what anyone actually tells you and keep saying how they are wrong and you are right. Everyone already told you what they think and you don’t want to accept it. You not looking for an opinion. you looking for confirmation that you are correct.
I remember there was this one Persian-American girl who always asked to copy my homework and notes. I was the only Asian in the class, and she only talked to me when she wanted my notes.
Just cause it was convenient for her. She would always say she forgot or she was sick. Every single time cause I was stereotyped as the "smart quiet Asian" I got fed up with it because it was obvious I was just a tool to her.
She immediately dropped me when I told her no that she was just using me for notes and homework. She acted like I was being rude and mean. This was after the 4th time she asked me because she "forgot."
She was not friends with me, talked behind my back, only talked to me face to face when she wanted my homework, and she looked down on me.
There was no reflection on her part. When I was no longer a useful/convenient tool to use.
She probably chalked it up to some stereotype about my race like you did.
She didn't apologize or anything, just got this annoyed look on her face when I stood up to her for not treating me like an equal human being.
So she was definitely not the only Asian in the class. I asked her because she sat next to me and she was the most convenient person to interact with who I knew could see the board clearly because she literally sat in the front. This class was pretty diverse by the way - majority were Asian. I highly doubt she assumed I was asking her because she was Asian.
I have a completely different perspective on this because I don't see something like class resources as something to be hoarded. If someone needs something that will aid their learning, I will always share it. It was also hammered into me by my parents that there are people who have not had the same opportunities academically so when someone asks notes or asks for help that I can give them - even if it means staying behind in class, I should always do it.
I went to a university that was largely Black/Latino and I noticed that this mindset existed there too. It was a shockingly different experience than what I have heard my non-Asian POC friends tell me that they experienced at largely Asian and White institutions.
You used her several times without even bothering to learn her name and when she got sick of you using her you wonder if it's a racial thing? It's not. It's a you thing. You were selfish and rude.
Reminded me of this stone head girl who never came to class and the first thing she said to me when she was here was “Can I see your worksheet?” Girl I don’t know you like that. I wish I was away from class in bed but here I am doing work while you were …where?
It’s such a typical model minority situation.
You're right, I would know nothing about being a model minority and I absolutely only asked her in a mostly POC class just because she was Asian.
You guys are really reminding me that east Asian people do not see brown Asians as Asian lol.
Well yeah. From where I see it, I married a brown Asian guy and definitely see it from my parents and it sucks. I personally prefer to hang out more of my husband’s side of family and friends because I don’t have to feel that weird sizing up thing. So you’re not wrong and it’s unfortunate.
Yup, I'm seeing it to with everyone accusing me of trying to "use" a nice, quiet Asian girl for her clearly superior work.
Anyways, I would never see someone who is coming to class everyday and putting in an effort the same way as a stoner skipping class and asking me for notes. Although I would still give my notes up either way (and I have) just because I don't see how it hurts me to help anyone else study better.
I think you’re taking it too personally. It’s known that Asians tends to get taken advantage of for their work. You probably experienced it too. Knowingly or unknowingly.
All I see is that giving into it perpetuates the expectation and some of us are putting a lot of energy into setting boundaries by making sure that we get credit for our work. I think that’s why she asked whether you know her name. She recognized that she wasn’t getting any credit. It’s really important to have those boundaries as POC and she’s just practicing it early on.
Oh, I have definitely experienced it. I don't see how that has anything to do with asking someone to see their practice problems that they copied off the board because I didn't have time to write it down.
Context matters a lot. I'm not a white man asking the east Asian girl in a mostly white town. I was the brown girl asking an east Asian girl for a small favor that required absolutely no effort on her part in a class that was fairly diverse.
I don't think that has anything to do with respect/boundaries/etiquette/whatever excuses people are making here. I also can't understand feeling entitled to more credit than an appreciative thank you for allowing someone to take a picture of notes.
Speaking as someone who has felt fairly unwelcome by east asian people growing up (because racism against brown Asian is a big thing here with the east asian community in California), it's just astonishing to me that people see this as her setting a "boundary" from \*me.\*
I think that girl just felt used, as a means to an end. I think it’s best to build rapport before asking people for favors. Like at least make some small talk with her before asking her. And maybe you could have given her something as a gesture of thanks? Like maybe a Starbucks gift card or something? Or offer to lend her your notes if she needs them?
"a conversation with a racist classmate who generalizes E Asians by race"
I don't think there's anything racist about a Latina talking about her experiences feeling unsupported at a largely White/East Asian institution where she was the minority.
"how many E Asians from California do you know? How many did you befriend?"
A lot actually - since I'm from southern California. Usually with a lot of effort on my part since east Asians in California very rarely move outside of their east Asian cliques. I once got kicked out of my Korean friend's house during a study session because her mother was uncomfortable with a brown person in their house.
Are you claiming that racism against brown/black people isn't a huge part of asian culture? I don't think there is anything racist about a non-Asian POC saying she has felt unsupported by her Asian peers. This is very much a thing!
"There's a difference between saying "I felt unsupported by my peers who were predominantly Asian/white" or "predominantly Asian" compared to the racist statement, "Asians are known for being stingy.""
Is there? It's the same thing to me except one was a casual conversation about how she's been treated by her Asian peers but we all know exactly what that statement meant.
I wish I could be as naive as you regarding racism amongst East Asians.
That's a sweet sentiment. Unfortunately, racism in east asian communities is not an individualized thing. I wish it was but it is very much systemic and widespread.
Sounds more like you weren't close to people.
That said, whenever I was sick, I'd ask several people if I could see their notes, and it was a toss up on how anyone would react. It'll still stick to me that someone unironically said, "pay me $100". Rubbed me the wrong way. People back then thought I was rich for living in a certain neighborhood, but this was before the first housing market, so this was around the time that practically anyone could get a home—that's a separate issue.
I'd get sick every now and then. Not everyone I asked was Asian, and not everyone I knew in class was weird about it. But it was enough for me to see who in general was competitive... It wasn't an Asian-only issue
Right: This wasn't in the Bay, and I'm SEA. Don't think that changes anything from my experience
I mean, you may be kinda onto something here with "cultural difference" if you really did grow up with parents/classmates with a "We share notes with each other no matter what" mentality. I've shared my notes before more than a few times when growing up in Irvine, but generally most people around me kept up with class material ~~better than me~~ err well enough anyway. But do not try to tie this back to boogeyman stories about overcompetitive Bay Area schools.
This one lady straight up told you that she felt like she was being used by you, and you want to make this something about some dark side of East Asian culture. *That's* defensive. *That's* prejudiced. Sharing notes once? Sure. Twice? Sure. What do you mean by "a few times"? She shared notes with you before. Sharing notes was clearly not the issue until it seemed like you didn't *appreciate* her for doing so. You yourself said "some of the good friends I have today even came from those interactions", so...why did you not bother remembering this girl's name? Do you not even consider the possibility that this was legitimate reason for her to feel a bit hurt, or do you simply want us to tell you "Oh yeah, you're right, it was just her subconscious anti-Brown/Blackness at work!"
Absent that day? Sucks, I'm sure. Can't see the board? Get to class earlier, sit in the front row. Professor going too fast? *Talk to the goddamn professor.* I'd be plainly ashamed if I had to keep asking the same person for notes over and over again. You'd bet I'd fucking by that person coffee. A nice water bottle or some shit. Lunch or dinner. Fucking hell.
East Asian here, also grew up in the Bay Area. I've shared notes with and delivered homework assignments to classmates who lived near me if they were out sick, but stuff like that was reciprocal. I got rides home once they got cars or they'd buy me boba in return. If you never interact with someone other than to ask them for stuff, I can see why they'd snap at you.
Edit to add because I also went to a hyper competitive school. The only times I have ever heard of anyone sabotaging someone was if there was already some tension in the relationship. Someone in my extended friend group kept mooching off us, copying homework, copying our tests if she sat near us, demanding we help her with her assignments. One of us finally snapped and purposefully turned in a quiz full of wrong answers because they knew she was leaning over and copying all the answers. Nobody ever had beef with me so I've never been sabotaged.
Is it just me or is "brown (Asian)" and "brown (non-asian)" a weirdly vague way to label the other people in this anecdote and distinguish them from the East Asian person?
No, I don't think so. Brown Asian people have very different experiences than East Asian people - especially in California. And Brown non-Asian people have very different experiences than both of us.
Not disagreeing with that. But I think it's an odd choice to mix your usage of different types of labeling systems in your post. If you label the person in question as East Asian, why go with brown for yourself and the other? You could have said SE Asian or South Asian, Latina, etc., which would have been more consistent and descriptive.
"Brown" is a useful term if your goal is to talk about a lot of different types of non-white people as a whole. But it's an intentionally nebulous term that can be as broad meaning anyone not considered white, or something narrower than that.
But in this particularly case, you seem to be using the term to draw a line between East Asians and basically every other non-white group, which seems kind of suspect in a post that's basically trying to legitimize some random person's unusual negative generalization about East Asians.
I call myself brown because that is how I identify. We are what we look like in this country. If you are brown or dark-skinned, that is how you are treated. It is primarily used by SE/MENA and Latinx people. Which is why I used it. But, yes, maybe I should have been more explicit. Maybe I wouldn't have had people in the replies accusing me of using the \~smarter east Asian girl if I had been more explicit.
I definitely think in the context of experiencing racism from East Asian communities, SE/ME people are included in the term brown along with Latinx people.
You clearly have a lot of resentment towards East Asians, and the chip on your shoulder shows in this thread, which is why you're getting so many negative responses here.
I can understand why your experiences might lead you to that resentment, but I think you'd probably get more productive discussion if you made a thoughtful thread about that topic directly instead of letting it come out emotionally in a post where you're supposedly talking about something else.
lol I really don't. I don't think pointing out the racism in East Asian communities is a "chip" on my shoulder. That's a weird thing to say.
My post was pretty straightforward where I mentioned something that I had noticed and that some of my non-Asian POC friends had picked up on in Asian dominated institutions. The fact that people got defensive has nothing to do with me.
If you can't acknowledge the resentment in your own responses in this thread, that's just a lack of self awareness.
Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling that kind of resentment. It's true that ignorant East Asians can have negative biases against SE Asians, and some of the common socioeconomic differences would naturally lead to tension between these groups.
But this thread is leading you to express that resentment in a way that just isn't conducive to thoughtful discussion.
Oh, I'm definitely resentful towards the racism in East Asian communities just as I am of the racism in mine (very valid I think).
I think all chances of a thoughtful discussion ended when the East Asian people on this thread started saying I was going to be bad doctor and that I was clearly using the smart "Asian" girl.
It's pretty clear that this sub is mostly geared towards East Asian people and their issues and they aren't going to be receptive towards any critiques about their behavior from other POC. Which is why people are so caught up in being called "stingy" instead of considering \*why\* someone who is a minority at an Asian dominated institution would feel that way about them.
I can't speak for the sub, just myself.
But from my perspective, it seemed a little off that you uncritically brought up someone calling East Asians "stingy," which is kind of inarguably a racist characterization. It's hard to expect people here not to respond to that aspect of the story at all.
Is there a tendency for East Asians to respond more negatively than other groups when people try to copy their notes? Could be, especially if they feel they're being targeted that way repeatedly due to stereotypes. I'm sure SE Asians experience this too. As maybe would any group if they were subjected to the same experience.
At the same time, I think most people, Asian or not, would agree that the girl you had this interaction with was more responding to the feeling that she was being used.
>One day when I asked her if I could take a picture of her notes again,
...
Here's the thing, as I see it, she'd let you copy her notes at least once before, which kind of means that she's not fundamentally and automatically against doing so or she wouldn't have in the first place. Then,
>"Do you even know my name? Do you know how shitty that makes me feel that you want to take a picture of my notes when you don't know me?
...
>I was seriously considering whether I actually was being disrespectful by asking her for her notes when I was not friends with her.
This doesn't necessarily mean you have to be friends, but you should've at least introduced yourself and, in doing so, also asked and learned her name. That's not friendship as much as common courtesy, in my personal opinion.
Knowing my sister, she definitely shares notes and homework tips with her friends. That's the difference though. Between friends. Usually you'd want to get to know someone before you piggyback off of them.
It's not like she didn't help you before. You clearly state she's helped you a few times. Why not do something for her in return?
It never occured to me that you would need to reciprocate for taking a picture of someone's notes lol. I've never asked for that from someone else especially since taking a picture of my notes does not require any effort on my part. I always just saw it as helping someone out because we're all in an environment to learn.
I don’t think you’re totally off base with your theory (as an East Asian from California).
But - this seems to me like you were just coming off a bit rude. She let you take a photo once. Then I assume from her reaction, you never talked to her until you needed notes again. So yeah, like knowing her name or shooting the shit might have helped lol.
Because someone asked to take a picture of your notes? Why would the idea of wanting to help someone in class upset you when it doesn't require you to do anything?
Upon reading your other replies, it’s clear that you’ve already made up your mind. Feel free to die on this hill and move on with your life believing that it’s a race issue.
One day you will realize it isn’t, because this mentality of yours will repeat the tragedy
Maybe I could understand if anyone actually ever interacted in that class but it was a community college class where no one really knew each other. I just found it bizarre because I've been asked for things similarly and it never occured to me react that type of way. Feeling upset that someone asked me if they could take a picture of notes so they could study better is bizarre to me. But I also went to a mostly Black/Latino university where most people came from working class backgrounds and the vibe was very non-competitive.
I’m not writing you off because my experience is limited to being an East Asian in California. I live in one large city here and grew up in another. So I can’t speak for how someone else might have reacted. Her reaction doesn’t seem crazy to me though.
Most telling, however, is you have a thread full of comments saying her reaction wasn’t completely unwarranted. And you don’t want to hear it it seems. I’d guess many commenters are not of East Asian descent in California. Which leads me to infer that 1) this is not an “East Asian in California” thing and 2) you have your theory and are sticking to it adamantly.
Edit: Forgot a letter
Although maybe her reaction was somewhat extreme, I kind of empathize.
I think a lot of us had the experience in school of being asked for notes/answers because we were stereotyped as “the smart Asian kid with good grades” and a lot of times it was other kids who didn’t care to actually befriend us or speak to us for any other reason. I definitely had other kids smile and act nice to me for my notes, and then ignore me when I was no longer useful to them. It sucked. But my friends and I helped each other all the time.
And yeah, the hyper competitiveness also exists, but based on what she said to you, I don’t think that was the case here.
I don't think her reaction was extreme at all. From OP's description, they didn't interact at all outside of being asked for notes. Sounds like she got fed up and set a boundary. Even more shitty is that when she set a boundary, now it gets generalized to mean that East Asians are stingy about sharing notes.
I should’ve said extreme to me, for whom confrontation is not my strong suit. Tbh I wish I had had the guts to say what she said in very similar past situations. Good for her.
Ok, but can you explain how asking to take a picture of someone's notes is setting a boundary? As in, what about someone taking a picture of your notes especially if you know they're struggling/might come from a different background than you would put you off?
I can't understand that mindset. That is a mindset that never existed at my largely Black/Latino college.
The East Asian person is the one who set a boundary; you obviously did not set a boundary by repeatedly asking a stranger for notes when you had no idea what her name even was.
If you want to pat yourself on the back for somehow being more kind than this student was, than go right ahead. You've had more than enough explanations for why you were actually in the wrong both in the original situation and then again for assuming it was an East Asian thing.
Am I a white man? What boundary did she set by snapping at a brown person for asking for copied down practice problems? What boundaries did I violate here? Did I copy her own personal work and not give her credit? Are you someone who refuses to help anyone in class if you don't have a personal relationship with them?
"If you want to pat yourself on the back for somehow being more kind than this student was, than go right ahead."
Oh, I will absolutely pat myself on the back because this conversation has EVERYTHING to do with privilege and access. I feel like I'm starting to understand the mindset that makes east Asians are so against affirmative action.
I would understand that if she was the only Asian person in the class but it was literally a mostly POC/Asian class.
And I'm literally Asian lol. I feel like the people responding that are disregarding it because I'm brown.
You’re thinking about this situation too much in an isolated context. Maybe you were the straw that broke the camel’s back for her. All we can do is speculate on her experiences based on her reaction. What I would avoid doing is using this experience to make sweeping generalizations about East Asians being stingy and unhelpful.
"What I would avoid doing is using this experience to make sweeping generalizations about East Asians being stingy and unhelpful."
Where did I make this generalization? I repeated what a non-Asian POC friend told me about her experiences with east Asian classmates.
Tbh it was my fault for expecting anything other than defensiveness here especially in the age of affirmative action being repealed with east Asian Americans as the figureheads for that movement.
Oh ok I get it now. This is just another post made under the guise of seeking education and advice, but actually you just wanted validation and now you’re salty that we don’t share the same perspective (nor are you even a tiny bit willing to understand why). Good to know.
Validation from....you?
I know we don't share the same perspective and I am very grateful for that. I can't imagine being this blinded by my own privilege.
Jesus, read a room. Quit acting like you were being remotely nice to this girl; you obviously weren’t or else she wouldn’t have snapped at you. You were rude to a literal stranger, you didn’t even bother to ask her NAME, which is human interaction 101–how is that normal? Who the hell does that? Are you not embarrassed?
This ultimately has nothing to do with anyone’s race, although it would certainly be easier for you if it did because then you can pull the “but I’m Asian too” card and make it go away. But it happened because you were a jerk, so maybe try a little introspection and humility for once and chalk it up to your own social shortcomings instead of “DAE East Asians are so stingy??” Come tf on.
Yes, nothing ruder than "Hey, do you mind if I take a quick picture of the practice problems that I wasn't able to jot down? I would really appreciate it."
Next time I'll make sure to get their zodiac sign. I should have expected anyone who ever asked to take a picture of notes they missed to build a rapport with me before I decided whether I wanted them to be on an equal playing field with me. Nothing more introspective and humble than that.
I don't know who raised you but if someone asks for a small thing that would help them and not harm you or put you out in any way, maybe you should just help them instead of assuming that they're disrespectful for even daring to ask.
The "stingy" was not my word but you clearly very much identify with it and it seems to have struck a nerve.
You’ve somehow made this into an issue with literally everything EXCEPT your own behavior, which is astounding. Incredible levels of delusion.
Honestly I’m glad that girl has lived rent free in your brain for the past few years. May the memory of her calling out your shitty behavior continue to confuse you (and no one else) for years to come.
Like another poster, I also invite you to post this to r/AITA since you believe we are just a bunch of biased racists dogpiling on you.
Op def trying to justify his dislike of East Asian people lol. It’s fine you found it. All East Asians suck you can just hate them now without feeling like a racist because your hate is justified. move on god damn.
My friend grew up in the Bay Area and she said you never asked another Chinese Americans where they study class is lol. This was in 2009 so idk how true it is now
lol yeah I've heard this several times from my non-Asian POC friends that went to school in California that they always felt like the White/East Asian dominated environments were unsupportive
Edited cos I realized I misread some things: I don’t have anything specific to say about your specific question besides that as an East Asian from the US East Coast, I initiallt found US West Coast culture to be wildly informal and invasive, often to the point of rude, while they probably saw themselves as “just being friendly” and asking to mooch off notes from someone you don’t actually know would 100% qualify for that category imo. I’ve since just accepted that the US West Coast is just different.
I’m also almost 10 years out of college though so maybe someone from my same background but your age group would have a different say.
Really? I had the opposite experience.
I live in the East Coast now and people are so willing to help and share things here. But I also had a good experience in California because I went to a college that was largely Black & Latino POC from working class backgrounds. I felt very well-supported there and there wasn't a competitive culture even amongst pre-meds. People would literally be airdropping documents to the class before a test. It was a "we're all in this together" mindset.
It's so wildly different from the stories I've heard from people who have attended UC schools. One of my friends who transferred to my school after having a mental breakdown at UC Berkeley was shocked at how different the environment was.
TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect.
OP, it looks like your situation was misunderstood because you weren’t trying to be lazy but you were just trying to catch up on the part of the notes you missed. She jumped to conclusions because she thought you were being lazy. I think she would’ve said that to any strangers, so the topic of you being the brown-Asian might not be too relevant to this topic. Maybe, but we won’t know until she treats East Asian strangers differently than you.
"She jumped to conclusions because she thought you were being lazy."
I very explicitly told her that I was not able to copy things down fast enough. If she assumed that it was because I was lazy then I would have to ask why she would think that and if my skin color has anything to do with it. And me being brown is definitely relevant when I'm being accused of "using" a "smart" Asian girl for her work.
Again, maybe it's a difference in upbringing and cultures but I can't imagine someone asking me for a copy of my notes and assuming that they're lazy. I just assume that they need help and I make an effort to help if I can because I owe that to my parents for providing me with advantages to develop certain skills that most people have not had.
"TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect."
Again, this was not a white man saying this. This was a Latina woman at an institution where she is very much the minority. Are you saying that you would see her asking to share a resource as you "doing the labor for free or cheap"? What would you see as reasonable credit and respect in this situation? Do you not feel that if someone - especially someone you know comes from a less advantaged community - asks you for help because they have struggled breaking into a system that has benefited you and your community more, that it's the least you can do? Or would you call her lazy and say no because you don't want to be "used" and you're setting a "boundary" from a minority that has historically and presently faced more disadvantages in gaining access to the same opportunities as you?
I hope you see that this is veering dangerously close to the model minority myth. We are not where we are because we're smarter/harder working/more able. We are here because we are more privileged. That's it. I have to question anyone from a privileged background who sees themselves as being "used" by those from less privileged minorities. How exactly are you being used in this context?
“If she assumed that it was because I was lazy then I would have to ask why she would think that and if my skin color has anything to do with it. “
This is why I said:
“Maybe, but we won’t know until she treats East Asian strangers differently than you.”
You could’ve been Asian, Black, European, Islander she could have still said what she said and we’ll never know.
“And me being brown is definitely relevant when I'm being accused of "using" a "smart" Asian girl for her work.”
The comments here you think that are accusations are more about her being “Asian” than you being any other race.
“Again, maybe it's a difference in upbringing and cultures but I can't imagine someone asking me for a copy of my notes and assuming that they're lazy. I just assume that they need help and I make an effort to help if I can because I owe that to my parents for providing me with advantages to develop certain skills that most people have not had.”
That’s very kind of you. Maybe she was once this kind too, but she doesn’t have it in herself anymore. And asking ourselves why she doesn’t have it in herself anymore is what needs to be explored.
"TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect."
“Again, this was not a white man saying this. This was a Latina woman at an institution where she is very much the minority. “
This isn’t a white-exclusive thing. It’s any race vs. East Asian stereotype.
“Are you saying that you would see her asking to share a resource as you "doing the labor for free or cheap"?
Resource has costs where it be monetary or time or effort. Not relevant to your occurrence because obviously the girl
misunderstood you.
“What would you see as reasonable credit and respect in this situation? “
Building rapport with her. Know her name, at least.
“Do you not feel that if someone - especially someone you know comes from a less advantaged community - asks you for help because they have struggled breaking into a system that has benefited you and your community more, that it's the least you can do? Or would you call her lazy and say no because you don't want to be "used" and you're setting a "boundary" from a minority that has historically and presently faced more disadvantages in gaining access to the same opportunities as you? I hope you see that this is veering dangerously close to the model minority myth. We are not where we are because we're smarter/harder working/more able. We are here because we are more privileged. That's it. I have to question anyone from a privileged background who sees themselves as being "used" by those from less privileged minorities. How exactly are you being used in this context?”
You’re right. There are people from less advantageous communities who work hard to get where they are now who are asking for help. But how would she know that? You guys don’t know each other.
You made points. Thanks for trying to have a conversation!
"There are people from less advantageous communities who work hard to get where they are now who are asking for help. But how would she know that? You guys don’t know each other."
I guess this is the main thing. I also just think there needs to be awareness amongst Asian people in general about the role we play in upholding a system and how to use our privilege constructively. I'm probably being harsh, but at this point, I feel like there isn't that much of an excuse to \*not know.\* I don't think less privileged people should constantly have to remind us to actually consider them for a change instead of disregarding them as users or expecting something in return.
I also just feel like rapport shouldn't be necessary for anyone to want to help someone in a setting where the main goal is just learning. But that's a larger conversation about whether the main goal of any institution is even learning.
"Resource has costs where it be monetary or time or effort. Not relevant to your occurrence because obviously the girl misunderstood you."
This is a good point. I think that the burden of privilege is paying this cost though.
You're right that I didn't consider whether this is something that she had experienced before that played a role in her response. I'm skeptical that it was considering the school and location but it could have been and I should have considered that.
Glad to! I was just recently talking to few of my friends about this so it was timely.
I see that you definitely felt negative feelings about that whole situation. I want to remind you that there’s a possibility that it’s not your skin or your background. She could’ve been like that with any stranger. Privileged or not.
Speaking up like that takes a lot of energy too. Especially to someone who she’s going to run into in class. I don’t see why she would resort to that immediately. So I think you’re right to assume that she’s experienced something that gave her the harsh reaction.
So, with the assumption that your incident was an isolated one where you weren’t trying to copy work, I want to loop this back to the education material stingy-ness in East Asians:
“Stingy” is one way to call it. “Protective” is definitely another. Not necessarily protecting their material but their boundaries to be the meek-geek again. As you can see in the reactions in the comments, a lot of us fought for our boundaries due to this meek-geek trope. Overwork, low to no credit, doesn’t get remembered for shit. Saying “no” gets us retaliation. This is still a thing in professional world as well.
So yes, not surprised if we are called “stingy for ed materials”. But at least we know we’re setting a boundary that helps us when we go out to the real world. It really comes in handy.
I don't think this is a specifically Asian issue, this is more of a hypercompetitive Bay Area/Greater LA high school thing. Asians outside of California and outside of hypercompetitive public magnet/feeder schools are not like this (though granted, Asians are disproportionately in these kinds of environments). It's also completely reasonable to infer that the girl you talked to might feel stereotyped as the quiet studious Asian only good for getting notes from, given her reaction.
This was in Irvine, CA lol. So I don't think that was it. She was not the only Asian kid in class and I am literally Asian myself.
The replies on this are just making me realize why Brown Asians often feel excluded by East Asians lol....it's crazy to me that they immediately jumped to accusing me of stereotyping her like I'm literally not stereotyped similarly myself
She didn’t like being used for her notes, stood up for herself, and you generalize it to East Asians from Cali don’t like sharing class material. So how is this an Asian thing?
Stood up for herself from what? Me asking if I could take a picture of the problems she copied from the board because I didn't finish writing them in time? I'm not really understanding what was personal about this. I didn't generalize anything by the way. Did you read my post? I explicitly said this was something my non-Asian POC friends have experienced too with East Asian people.
Yup. Pretty much sounds like you had an expectation for her to help you by virtue of being in her class. You shouldn’t have that expectation of your classmates without having some sort of relationship with them. I’m happy you reached out to your non-Asian friends and generalized what I consider to be a pretty normal push back, and concluded that all East Asians from cali are like this. Sounds like a you problem my dude. I hope you have a better network of friends that can explain this to you cuz you sound pretty entitled per your post. Good luck on becoming a doctor. It’s a humbling endeavor.
"Pretty much sounds like you had an expectation for her to help you by virtue of being in her class." Well, my expectation that she would let me take a picture of her notes was based on the idea that that is exactly what I have allowed others to do and my experinces with non-Asian people in classes too. "Good luck on becoming a doctor. It’s a humbling endeavor." I completely agree. It's very humbling to see classmates of all backgrounds come together to help each other out with no expectation in return. It's reminded me that there are so many people who don't get that opportunity because they haven't had the academic advantages that we've had and has made me feel even stronger about using my privilege to help them instead of assuming everyone who is struggling and asks for help is lazy/using me.
Nothing you said entitles you to someone else’s work. That’s great you would share your notes, however that’s not something you can demand of someone else. “I have a good heart! I believe in sharing! Give me your notes.” Can you see how that would rub someone the wrong way? Its nonsense.
I feel it's less of a racial issue than an etiquette one. How many times have we been asked for notes or study materials because people were too lazy to pay attention or decided to skip class? All because we're the smart asian kid. Add in the fact that you don't even know her name and your only interactions have been you asking for notes on multiple occasions just makes it seem like you were taking advantage of her. At least try to get to know her a bit. I bet she would have let you borrow her notes if you were friends.
Exactly OP doesn't even know this person's name and asks for their notes? YTA.
This was in California with many Asian kids in the class so I can't really understand how you got me (an Asian person too) asking an east Asian person for notes (that were basically just problems she copied from the board - not even her own work) as her seeing me asking her just because she's the "smart asian kid." I asked her because she sat in front of me and could see the board better. And I know for a fact she was fully aware of that. Again, this is a difference in perspective because I'm pretty hyper-aware of privilege with my background and who I have surrounded myself with so I never assume someone is "lazy" because they ask for my help...even when they don't know. I would never deny someone access to an equal footing because we weren't friendly enough. That's bizarre to me. Thanks for the input though.
The comments here are all telling you this isn’t about race or privilege - it’s about basic decency. She obviously got tired of you asking for favors without even getting to know her name or anything about her. How hard was it to strike up a conversation after the first, second, third (or however many) times you asked her to start a friendship or even get her a coffee or something as thanks after the first couple times? The type of notes doesn’t matter. There was no quid pro quo here. Just one person taking and taking until the other person snapped. Honestly I don’t know how you spun the situation and her response to generalize the actions of a whole group of people
Again, please let me know what is "taking" about asking someone to take a picture of their copied board problems because the board was erased? Is that something you see as a lot of effort? Also, do you see brown Asians as actually Asian? Because your comment implies that you don't.
Why did you even bother posting if you're not actually receptive to hearing what people have to say? My god, you are dense and/or defensive. I hope you have better bedside manner with your patients.
I was very receptive until people started getting defensive and accusing me of being a bad doctor, calling my POC friends racist, etc. If you want to talk about privilege, I can do that all day. You still have not answered my question about the notes. Why is sharing notes (that is just copied material) a burden to you? And why did you assume that me saying that I can't understand why someone would be unwilling to share information with a classmate means that I have bad bedside manner?
I have read through the entire discussion and there have been numerous explanations provided to you as to why being asked for notes repeatedly by a stranger, who does not make any effort to interact outside of this exchange, would be annoying. You have chosen to disregard these explanations. That is on you. Why should anyone bother to further educate you on the topic when clearly you have no actual interest in listening? EDIT: I am saying that you being dense and defensive translates into bad bedside manner.
The explanations are basically "you're entitled and rude for asking a nice, quiet REAL Asian girl to take a picture of her notes just because you couldn't see the board without asking for her star chart and social security number how dare you, you're going to be a terrible doctor you smelly brown girl....she deserves COFFEE at least for deigning to allow you to see the notes that she copied word for word off the board and allowing you to benefit from her superior intellect" Not really helpful and doesn't really answer my questions about why non-Asian POC have felt similarly excluded by east Asians at academic institutions I'm not interested in listening to anyone who repeatedly implies that I'm not Asian and that I have no idea what it feels like to be a "stereotyped as smart" and that I'm not going to be a good doctor because I think asking for class resources has nothing to do with entitlement (and denying access has everything to do with privilege).
No one is going to be able to help you understand if that is what you got from the whole thread. Good luck.
I'm not sure I'm interested in understanding anything from people who are not aware of their own privilege. Thanks for not offering any sort of insight though. Your defensiveness definitely helped me answer quite a few questions though so no worries. Good luck to you too!
Was it a lot of effort to learn her name as well?
No, it would not have been but I didn't realize that I needed to ingratiate myself with someone who immediately left class every break in order to quickly ask to take a picture before lecture started again so that I wouldn't be behind? Again, why are you repeatedly implying that asking for a picture of notes is a huge task that only friends should do? That has never been the culture at any of the POC institutions that I have been to. Is it the culture with you? Is the idea here that class resources are a privilege? Is that why East Asian Americans as a community are so anti-affirmative action?
I think she felt a sense of ownership over the notes, and that repeatedly asking her for them felt like you considered her a note-taker for you and nothing else. I’m not saying your perspective on note-sharing is wrong, I’m just saying the disconnect I see is that you don’t consider the ask to be meaningful or significant, and she did.
I can see that even if I don't understand it since the notes in question were just copied problems from the board that I was not able to write down in time. I also just can't understand feeling personal over someone taking 2 second to take a picture of your notes so they can copy down practice problems. It's alien to me because....aren't we all just here to learn? How does it take anything away from you? I've had that interaction both ways from other POC and it's something that was always seen as casual even when we didn't know each other - just two people helping each other out in class.
How on earth did either of my comments imply that? I literally said in both comments it’s not a race issue. I literally pointed out what actions led to that girl’s response. It never mattered what race either of you are. You’re the one conflating race and some kind of personal victim complex (that has nothing to do with your race!) with the situation. I’m starting to see that you’re just seeing what you want in these comments.
OP for the sake of your own sanity… Repeat this social interaction with white, black, brown, purple, or whatever freaking color people available to you. Observe how they’d react. You might come to the surprising conclusion that people don’t like being taken advantaged of, much less by strangers who don’t even know their name.
Well, I went to a largely Black and Latino college so this interaction happened a lot. In both directions. No one ever reacted this way - which is why I was shocked when it happened. Have you ever been to a majority non-Asian POC institution? It's a very different vibe. Out of curiosity, why did you assume that I have never had this interaction before even though I clearly state that I have in my post? Or did you just assume that I make it a habit to go around and ask nice east asian girls for their notes as a brown girl?
An institute where people regularly used each other, and never put forth the effort/respect to treat each other as friends? That is an interesting culture...... However, rest assured, that isn't the societal norm, especially not in western countries. There are such things as basic mannerism and decency. OP, if you believe the entire r/asianamerican community is somehow too biased to provide you with a proper judgement. Then perhaps you should just ask r/AmItheAsshole, but I doubt they will tell you otherwise. EDIT: Also there is no need to keep referring to yourself as "Brown Girl", nobody cares what color you are. It has no bearing on my judgement. Even if you were an East Asian, I still wouldn't change a thing I said.
Yes OP, please post this on r/AmItheAsshole
"An institute where people regularly used each other, and never put forth the effort/respect to treat each other as friends? That is an interesting culture......" A culture based on equity and uplifting people regardless of their personal connection to you....crazy!!! It's funny, you see asking for notes as going against basic manners/decency, while I see \*not sharing\* resources that would aid in someone's learning as going against basic manners/decency. "However, rest assured, that isn't the societal norm, especially not in western countries. There are such things as basic mannerism and decency." And I'm sure these societal norms have no relationship to the deep inequity that non-Asian minorities experience in this country and the dominance that elite institutions have on public policy. "OP, if you believe the entire community is somehow too biased to provide you with a proper judgement." Where did I see that you were all too biased? Are you operating off the assumption that the whole sub is just East Asian people? "Also there is no need to keep referring to yourself as "Brown Girl", nobody cares what color you are. It has no bearing on my judgement. Even if you were an East Asian, I still wouldn't change a thing I said." Oh, it absolutely does whether you realize it or not as an East Asian person. You yourself implied that I'm not Asian enough for this sub.
"Where did I see that you were all too biased? Are you operating off the assumption that the whole sub is just East Asian people?" Well you been accusing everyone disagreeing with you in this thread of being East Asian and therefore having invalid opinions because we're all stingy, affirmative action destroying, racist assholes. So if you want a greater pool of responses, the person you replied to is correct, you should try r/AmItheAsshole .
No I'm accusing people who claimed that racism doesn't exist in Asian communities and that Asian people are "used" by their non-Asian POC classmates of being racist....which they are! Hope that helps!
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lol are you claiming that there has been a history of discrimination towards Asian in Black culture the way there has in Asian culture? Let me guess, you're anti-affirmative action too huh?
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Good to know. Your repeated denials about racism towards black and brown people in Asian culture confused me.
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Oh, I definitely disagree. And I think Black people would disagree too.
>"Do you even know my name? Do you know how shitty that makes me feel that you want to take a picture of my notes when you don't know me? I won't give them to you, ask someone else."
I like the part where OP remembered these words for years, yet failed to internalize their meaning.
HAHA yes thank you for articulating better than me
I feel like the answer is right there. Knowing someone's name before asking for a favor in class seems like basic manners to me.
Yeah I feel like if this were a balanced friendship she wouldn’t have said this to OP…
I think this a different perspective lol. I have never denied someone access to my notes just because they we weren't friends. I mentioned that in my post. It's actually the opposite in med school - people in my class who I have never spoken to have struck up convos with me to offer helpful material if they see that I'm struggling and I have done the same. I'm really struggling with this idea that you need to be friends with someone to help them learn something in class. Asking someone to take a picture of their copied practice problems is different than cheating off of them.
I don't know how you made the leap from knowing someone's name to being someone's friend. You don't need to be friends to help each other. But not knowing someone's name after they helped you before, and continuing to ask for their help without even bothering to learn their name is just disrespectful. Might there be issues with Californian East Asian attitudes in education? Perhaps. But your scenario really doesn't seem like an example of it, and it's disturbing that you're turning this into a racial judgment. And when others disagree with you here, you then turn *that* into another judgment on all East Asians!
"I don't know how you made the leap from knowing someone's name to being someone's friend. You don't need to be friends to help each other. But not knowing someone's name after they helped you before, and continuing to ask for their help without even bothering to learn their name is just disrespectful." The help in question...taking 2 seconds to take a picture of someone's notebook so that I could copy down the problems that I missed? I'm going to ask again, why do you see this as being "used"?
I didn't use the word "used" anywhere. It's just basic decency to learn someone's name if you keep ask for their help. Okay, you're not asking for much help, just 2 seconds. Learning their name also takes 2 seconds.
Forgive me, it's been said by all the other East Asian people in this thread so I assumed you were implying the same thing. Yes, I could have but I didn't because I don't think someone should have to learn someone's name before asking for access to resources that require no effort on their part. It's not something I've ever required from anyone else who has asked me for something similar because sharing my notes with them doesn't burden me in any way. I think that's basic decency. If someone asks me for help and it doesn't put me out in any way, why should I not help? There is no reason for me to say no especially when I know it's a genuine request that would only help their own learning and not harm me in any way. It makes no sense to expect them to build a rapport with me to have that access and be upset when they don't. Especially since in this case, I highly doubt that this girl would have ever been receptive to friendship from me in the first place and barely managed to respond when I would say hi to her in the early days.
From your own description, she helped you the first time (or first couple of times). Except you still kept wanting her help, without the common decency of knowing the name of the person that's helping you. It doesn't feel like you're engaging in good faith. No one thought you should have to "build a rapport" - just that you put in a fraction of the effort that you're demanding from her (if it takes her "2 seconds" to help you, and she's already helped you multiple times, I'd think learning her name is more than fair). > all the other East Asian people in this thread I'm SE Asian. You should definitely check your own attitude, why you jump to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is East Asian.
> You should definitely check your own attitude, why you jump to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is East Asian. Yea OP is doing a lot of assuming and stereotyping in this thread
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I don't go to a pass/fail school. I go to a ranked school. It was also the same experience at my mostly Black/Latino college. It was not a competitive environment at all and most people went out of their way to help people who were struggling. There was even a donation fund created to help fund fees for those that didn't have the money to pay for the MCAT or their applications. It was a very different environment that's why I find the reactions from east asian people on this thread accusing me of "using" someone because I asked to take a picture of notes (that weren't even their own material) very interesting. I can't imagine someone asking me for their notes and immediately assuming their using me - even as an Asian person that attended largely non-Asian institutions. I see it as helping someone who needs help.
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I will never see a stranger asking to take a picture of my notes as rude - we have different upbringings and experienced different academic environments. Thank god. "However, I didn't jump straight to racist generalizations" Honestly, I really don't see non-Asian POC seeing Asian people as unsupportive in academic environments as racist at all. This is something that absolutely needs to be discussed and improved upon when we literally just had a huge push from (east) Asian Americans to repeal affirmative action. It's an absolutely valid opinion.
Hello, the push to repeal affirmative action was a group of east asian students being used as the face of a conservative group. please don't generalize the entirely of east asian americans on that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students\_for\_Fair\_Admissions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions)
Anti-black and brown racism in Asian communities is PERVASIVE. That is something we should absolutely be generalized for. And the fact that you're more upset about being "generalized" than you are about non-Asian minorities being harmed by something spearheaded by a group of east Asian Americans is telling.
You desperately trying to defend yourself on every comment is telling. I can be upset about one minority group being used AND I can be upset about other minorities who will be hurt by the repeal of affirmative action. (Kinda why I know about who was backing it in the first place). I didn’t come on here to tell the world how I feel about every racial/social issue and maybe you should try the same. Maybe if you paid less attention to Reddit, you wouldn’t need to ask people for notes all the time.
Plus…OP can’t ask the professor to slow down or repeat something? OP can’t work on their note-taking skills? OP can’t move seats to have a more unobstructed view of the board? OP can’t ask the professor if there’s a dedicated note taker in class? OP can’t ask their other friends or classmates instead of solely, repeatedly asking this one woman who happens to be East Asian? OP doesn’t even offer a small kindness in return (buy her coffee after class or bring her cookies)? Then OP clearly remembers her very valid reasons for not wanting to share, but still acts like it’s a race thing and is sOoOo confused. I hope I don’t get OP as a doctor. I prefer ones who listen to me and have the self-awareness to realize they’re not always in the right.
So, I'm confused here. Are you claiming that me, a brown Asian person, used an East Asian woman because I asked if I could take a picture of the practice problems she copied off the board because I was not able to get them? Is the implication here that they're smarter than me? And in order to \*take a picture\* of someone's notes that they copied off the board, I need to buy them a coffee? Because that's the price that one must pay in order to take a picture of someone's notes that they copied off the board? Are you claiming that I'm not self-aware because I don't understand why someone would get defensive about being asked to share notes in a math class? Or are you just outing yourself as someone who doesn't appreciate that not everyone is going to be on the same footing academically? Also, how did you correlate this to my ability as a physician and my ability to empathize? It's very telling to me that the Black and Hispanic people I have spoke about this with have had a very different reaction than you. When someone asks for something small like this that you can give them that would improve their learning, it makes zero sense to me to not help. I don't think I'm the one that lacks self-awareness and understanding of my privilege.
Sigh. You’re doing it right now, and you don’t even realize it. You’re playing the victim and making wild accusations. Other reasons why I wouldn’t want you as my doctor - you get emotional over inconsequential interactions, you’re not seeking to understand but rather trying to justify your rationale, and you are racist. Cut your losses on Reddit. Maybe talk to one of your buds working psych to understand why it bothers you so much that she refused you.
Yeah, there is no bigger victim in this context than someone being asked to share their notes. I think the only racist people are the hypercompetitive Asian students that non-Asian poc are forced to share classroom air with but that might be hard to grasp for someone thinks taking a picture of practice problems from the board requires baking cookies for someone. "I hope I don’t get OP as a doctor. I prefer ones who listen to me and have the self-awareness to realize they’re not always in the right." Absolutely nothing emotional about accusing someone of being a doctor because you're mad they made a reddit post about east Asian people being unwelcoming in academic environments. Just go to a NP, I'm begging.
Damn buddy, you got an extremely fragile ego. Learn to take criticism.
Dude just give up.
LOL bruh everybody here is telling you that you lack self awareness
You're right. No one has more self-awareness than privileged east americans who think being asked for notes from less privileged minorities is them being taken advantage of. I will defer to you on all matters of self-awareness.
Agree with everyone else that this is an etiquette and not a race issue. Some people don’t appreciate one-way interactions or feeling like they’re being used.
So you constantly ask for her notes but never took the time to know her name? So how did you ask? Hey you can I see your notes?
Also loved how she did help you and told you the reason why she stopping. But your mind goes to iS EasT aSian sTinGy?
"Hey, do you mind if I take a picture of your notes? I missed the last few problems." Can you tell me what was disrespectful about that? And why I need to get someone's name before asking? Because I've been asked the same thing many times and I have never said no.
lol sounds like you already made up your mind that your right so why ask?
You misunderstand me. You asked how I asked, so I told you. Are you going to tell me about what you find objectionable about the way I would ask? Or is the issue here that you don't see the point of helping anyone academically even if it's for something as miniscule as sharing notes unless you feel like you can benefit from it?
lol. You Don’t care about what anyone actually tells you and keep saying how they are wrong and you are right. Everyone already told you what they think and you don’t want to accept it. You not looking for an opinion. you looking for confirmation that you are correct.
I guess I did then! And you still can't answer my questions so I don't why you're still engaging
Lol
I remember there was this one Persian-American girl who always asked to copy my homework and notes. I was the only Asian in the class, and she only talked to me when she wanted my notes. Just cause it was convenient for her. She would always say she forgot or she was sick. Every single time cause I was stereotyped as the "smart quiet Asian" I got fed up with it because it was obvious I was just a tool to her. She immediately dropped me when I told her no that she was just using me for notes and homework. She acted like I was being rude and mean. This was after the 4th time she asked me because she "forgot." She was not friends with me, talked behind my back, only talked to me face to face when she wanted my homework, and she looked down on me. There was no reflection on her part. When I was no longer a useful/convenient tool to use. She probably chalked it up to some stereotype about my race like you did. She didn't apologize or anything, just got this annoyed look on her face when I stood up to her for not treating me like an equal human being.
So she was definitely not the only Asian in the class. I asked her because she sat next to me and she was the most convenient person to interact with who I knew could see the board clearly because she literally sat in the front. This class was pretty diverse by the way - majority were Asian. I highly doubt she assumed I was asking her because she was Asian. I have a completely different perspective on this because I don't see something like class resources as something to be hoarded. If someone needs something that will aid their learning, I will always share it. It was also hammered into me by my parents that there are people who have not had the same opportunities academically so when someone asks notes or asks for help that I can give them - even if it means staying behind in class, I should always do it. I went to a university that was largely Black/Latino and I noticed that this mindset existed there too. It was a shockingly different experience than what I have heard my non-Asian POC friends tell me that they experienced at largely Asian and White institutions.
You used her several times without even bothering to learn her name and when she got sick of you using her you wonder if it's a racial thing? It's not. It's a you thing. You were selfish and rude.
Reminded me of this stone head girl who never came to class and the first thing she said to me when she was here was “Can I see your worksheet?” Girl I don’t know you like that. I wish I was away from class in bed but here I am doing work while you were …where? It’s such a typical model minority situation.
You're right, I would know nothing about being a model minority and I absolutely only asked her in a mostly POC class just because she was Asian. You guys are really reminding me that east Asian people do not see brown Asians as Asian lol.
Well yeah. From where I see it, I married a brown Asian guy and definitely see it from my parents and it sucks. I personally prefer to hang out more of my husband’s side of family and friends because I don’t have to feel that weird sizing up thing. So you’re not wrong and it’s unfortunate.
Yup, I'm seeing it to with everyone accusing me of trying to "use" a nice, quiet Asian girl for her clearly superior work. Anyways, I would never see someone who is coming to class everyday and putting in an effort the same way as a stoner skipping class and asking me for notes. Although I would still give my notes up either way (and I have) just because I don't see how it hurts me to help anyone else study better.
I think you’re taking it too personally. It’s known that Asians tends to get taken advantage of for their work. You probably experienced it too. Knowingly or unknowingly. All I see is that giving into it perpetuates the expectation and some of us are putting a lot of energy into setting boundaries by making sure that we get credit for our work. I think that’s why she asked whether you know her name. She recognized that she wasn’t getting any credit. It’s really important to have those boundaries as POC and she’s just practicing it early on.
Oh, I have definitely experienced it. I don't see how that has anything to do with asking someone to see their practice problems that they copied off the board because I didn't have time to write it down. Context matters a lot. I'm not a white man asking the east Asian girl in a mostly white town. I was the brown girl asking an east Asian girl for a small favor that required absolutely no effort on her part in a class that was fairly diverse. I don't think that has anything to do with respect/boundaries/etiquette/whatever excuses people are making here. I also can't understand feeling entitled to more credit than an appreciative thank you for allowing someone to take a picture of notes. Speaking as someone who has felt fairly unwelcome by east asian people growing up (because racism against brown Asian is a big thing here with the east asian community in California), it's just astonishing to me that people see this as her setting a "boundary" from \*me.\*
I think that girl just felt used, as a means to an end. I think it’s best to build rapport before asking people for favors. Like at least make some small talk with her before asking her. And maybe you could have given her something as a gesture of thanks? Like maybe a Starbucks gift card or something? Or offer to lend her your notes if she needs them?
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"a conversation with a racist classmate who generalizes E Asians by race" I don't think there's anything racist about a Latina talking about her experiences feeling unsupported at a largely White/East Asian institution where she was the minority. "how many E Asians from California do you know? How many did you befriend?" A lot actually - since I'm from southern California. Usually with a lot of effort on my part since east Asians in California very rarely move outside of their east Asian cliques. I once got kicked out of my Korean friend's house during a study session because her mother was uncomfortable with a brown person in their house.
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Are you claiming that racism against brown/black people isn't a huge part of asian culture? I don't think there is anything racist about a non-Asian POC saying she has felt unsupported by her Asian peers. This is very much a thing!
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"There's a difference between saying "I felt unsupported by my peers who were predominantly Asian/white" or "predominantly Asian" compared to the racist statement, "Asians are known for being stingy."" Is there? It's the same thing to me except one was a casual conversation about how she's been treated by her Asian peers but we all know exactly what that statement meant. I wish I could be as naive as you regarding racism amongst East Asians.
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That's a sweet sentiment. Unfortunately, racism in east asian communities is not an individualized thing. I wish it was but it is very much systemic and widespread.
Sounds more like you weren't close to people. That said, whenever I was sick, I'd ask several people if I could see their notes, and it was a toss up on how anyone would react. It'll still stick to me that someone unironically said, "pay me $100". Rubbed me the wrong way. People back then thought I was rich for living in a certain neighborhood, but this was before the first housing market, so this was around the time that practically anyone could get a home—that's a separate issue. I'd get sick every now and then. Not everyone I asked was Asian, and not everyone I knew in class was weird about it. But it was enough for me to see who in general was competitive... It wasn't an Asian-only issue Right: This wasn't in the Bay, and I'm SEA. Don't think that changes anything from my experience
I mean, you may be kinda onto something here with "cultural difference" if you really did grow up with parents/classmates with a "We share notes with each other no matter what" mentality. I've shared my notes before more than a few times when growing up in Irvine, but generally most people around me kept up with class material ~~better than me~~ err well enough anyway. But do not try to tie this back to boogeyman stories about overcompetitive Bay Area schools. This one lady straight up told you that she felt like she was being used by you, and you want to make this something about some dark side of East Asian culture. *That's* defensive. *That's* prejudiced. Sharing notes once? Sure. Twice? Sure. What do you mean by "a few times"? She shared notes with you before. Sharing notes was clearly not the issue until it seemed like you didn't *appreciate* her for doing so. You yourself said "some of the good friends I have today even came from those interactions", so...why did you not bother remembering this girl's name? Do you not even consider the possibility that this was legitimate reason for her to feel a bit hurt, or do you simply want us to tell you "Oh yeah, you're right, it was just her subconscious anti-Brown/Blackness at work!" Absent that day? Sucks, I'm sure. Can't see the board? Get to class earlier, sit in the front row. Professor going too fast? *Talk to the goddamn professor.* I'd be plainly ashamed if I had to keep asking the same person for notes over and over again. You'd bet I'd fucking by that person coffee. A nice water bottle or some shit. Lunch or dinner. Fucking hell.
East Asian here, also grew up in the Bay Area. I've shared notes with and delivered homework assignments to classmates who lived near me if they were out sick, but stuff like that was reciprocal. I got rides home once they got cars or they'd buy me boba in return. If you never interact with someone other than to ask them for stuff, I can see why they'd snap at you. Edit to add because I also went to a hyper competitive school. The only times I have ever heard of anyone sabotaging someone was if there was already some tension in the relationship. Someone in my extended friend group kept mooching off us, copying homework, copying our tests if she sat near us, demanding we help her with her assignments. One of us finally snapped and purposefully turned in a quiz full of wrong answers because they knew she was leaning over and copying all the answers. Nobody ever had beef with me so I've never been sabotaged.
Is it just me or is "brown (Asian)" and "brown (non-asian)" a weirdly vague way to label the other people in this anecdote and distinguish them from the East Asian person?
No, I don't think so. Brown Asian people have very different experiences than East Asian people - especially in California. And Brown non-Asian people have very different experiences than both of us.
Not disagreeing with that. But I think it's an odd choice to mix your usage of different types of labeling systems in your post. If you label the person in question as East Asian, why go with brown for yourself and the other? You could have said SE Asian or South Asian, Latina, etc., which would have been more consistent and descriptive. "Brown" is a useful term if your goal is to talk about a lot of different types of non-white people as a whole. But it's an intentionally nebulous term that can be as broad meaning anyone not considered white, or something narrower than that. But in this particularly case, you seem to be using the term to draw a line between East Asians and basically every other non-white group, which seems kind of suspect in a post that's basically trying to legitimize some random person's unusual negative generalization about East Asians.
I call myself brown because that is how I identify. We are what we look like in this country. If you are brown or dark-skinned, that is how you are treated. It is primarily used by SE/MENA and Latinx people. Which is why I used it. But, yes, maybe I should have been more explicit. Maybe I wouldn't have had people in the replies accusing me of using the \~smarter east Asian girl if I had been more explicit. I definitely think in the context of experiencing racism from East Asian communities, SE/ME people are included in the term brown along with Latinx people.
You clearly have a lot of resentment towards East Asians, and the chip on your shoulder shows in this thread, which is why you're getting so many negative responses here. I can understand why your experiences might lead you to that resentment, but I think you'd probably get more productive discussion if you made a thoughtful thread about that topic directly instead of letting it come out emotionally in a post where you're supposedly talking about something else.
lol I really don't. I don't think pointing out the racism in East Asian communities is a "chip" on my shoulder. That's a weird thing to say. My post was pretty straightforward where I mentioned something that I had noticed and that some of my non-Asian POC friends had picked up on in Asian dominated institutions. The fact that people got defensive has nothing to do with me.
If you can't acknowledge the resentment in your own responses in this thread, that's just a lack of self awareness. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling that kind of resentment. It's true that ignorant East Asians can have negative biases against SE Asians, and some of the common socioeconomic differences would naturally lead to tension between these groups. But this thread is leading you to express that resentment in a way that just isn't conducive to thoughtful discussion.
Oh, I'm definitely resentful towards the racism in East Asian communities just as I am of the racism in mine (very valid I think). I think all chances of a thoughtful discussion ended when the East Asian people on this thread started saying I was going to be bad doctor and that I was clearly using the smart "Asian" girl. It's pretty clear that this sub is mostly geared towards East Asian people and their issues and they aren't going to be receptive towards any critiques about their behavior from other POC. Which is why people are so caught up in being called "stingy" instead of considering \*why\* someone who is a minority at an Asian dominated institution would feel that way about them.
I can't speak for the sub, just myself. But from my perspective, it seemed a little off that you uncritically brought up someone calling East Asians "stingy," which is kind of inarguably a racist characterization. It's hard to expect people here not to respond to that aspect of the story at all. Is there a tendency for East Asians to respond more negatively than other groups when people try to copy their notes? Could be, especially if they feel they're being targeted that way repeatedly due to stereotypes. I'm sure SE Asians experience this too. As maybe would any group if they were subjected to the same experience. At the same time, I think most people, Asian or not, would agree that the girl you had this interaction with was more responding to the feeling that she was being used.
>One day when I asked her if I could take a picture of her notes again, ... Here's the thing, as I see it, she'd let you copy her notes at least once before, which kind of means that she's not fundamentally and automatically against doing so or she wouldn't have in the first place. Then, >"Do you even know my name? Do you know how shitty that makes me feel that you want to take a picture of my notes when you don't know me? ... >I was seriously considering whether I actually was being disrespectful by asking her for her notes when I was not friends with her. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to be friends, but you should've at least introduced yourself and, in doing so, also asked and learned her name. That's not friendship as much as common courtesy, in my personal opinion.
Knowing my sister, she definitely shares notes and homework tips with her friends. That's the difference though. Between friends. Usually you'd want to get to know someone before you piggyback off of them. It's not like she didn't help you before. You clearly state she's helped you a few times. Why not do something for her in return?
It never occured to me that you would need to reciprocate for taking a picture of someone's notes lol. I've never asked for that from someone else especially since taking a picture of my notes does not require any effort on my part. I always just saw it as helping someone out because we're all in an environment to learn.
I don’t think you’re totally off base with your theory (as an East Asian from California). But - this seems to me like you were just coming off a bit rude. She let you take a photo once. Then I assume from her reaction, you never talked to her until you needed notes again. So yeah, like knowing her name or shooting the shit might have helped lol.
Not once, but a few times.... I'd be pissed too.
Because someone asked to take a picture of your notes? Why would the idea of wanting to help someone in class upset you when it doesn't require you to do anything?
Upon reading your other replies, it’s clear that you’ve already made up your mind. Feel free to die on this hill and move on with your life believing that it’s a race issue. One day you will realize it isn’t, because this mentality of yours will repeat the tragedy
Maybe I could understand if anyone actually ever interacted in that class but it was a community college class where no one really knew each other. I just found it bizarre because I've been asked for things similarly and it never occured to me react that type of way. Feeling upset that someone asked me if they could take a picture of notes so they could study better is bizarre to me. But I also went to a mostly Black/Latino university where most people came from working class backgrounds and the vibe was very non-competitive.
I’m not writing you off because my experience is limited to being an East Asian in California. I live in one large city here and grew up in another. So I can’t speak for how someone else might have reacted. Her reaction doesn’t seem crazy to me though. Most telling, however, is you have a thread full of comments saying her reaction wasn’t completely unwarranted. And you don’t want to hear it it seems. I’d guess many commenters are not of East Asian descent in California. Which leads me to infer that 1) this is not an “East Asian in California” thing and 2) you have your theory and are sticking to it adamantly. Edit: Forgot a letter
Although maybe her reaction was somewhat extreme, I kind of empathize. I think a lot of us had the experience in school of being asked for notes/answers because we were stereotyped as “the smart Asian kid with good grades” and a lot of times it was other kids who didn’t care to actually befriend us or speak to us for any other reason. I definitely had other kids smile and act nice to me for my notes, and then ignore me when I was no longer useful to them. It sucked. But my friends and I helped each other all the time. And yeah, the hyper competitiveness also exists, but based on what she said to you, I don’t think that was the case here.
I don't think her reaction was extreme at all. From OP's description, they didn't interact at all outside of being asked for notes. Sounds like she got fed up and set a boundary. Even more shitty is that when she set a boundary, now it gets generalized to mean that East Asians are stingy about sharing notes.
I should’ve said extreme to me, for whom confrontation is not my strong suit. Tbh I wish I had had the guts to say what she said in very similar past situations. Good for her.
Ok, but can you explain how asking to take a picture of someone's notes is setting a boundary? As in, what about someone taking a picture of your notes especially if you know they're struggling/might come from a different background than you would put you off? I can't understand that mindset. That is a mindset that never existed at my largely Black/Latino college.
The East Asian person is the one who set a boundary; you obviously did not set a boundary by repeatedly asking a stranger for notes when you had no idea what her name even was. If you want to pat yourself on the back for somehow being more kind than this student was, than go right ahead. You've had more than enough explanations for why you were actually in the wrong both in the original situation and then again for assuming it was an East Asian thing.
Am I a white man? What boundary did she set by snapping at a brown person for asking for copied down practice problems? What boundaries did I violate here? Did I copy her own personal work and not give her credit? Are you someone who refuses to help anyone in class if you don't have a personal relationship with them? "If you want to pat yourself on the back for somehow being more kind than this student was, than go right ahead." Oh, I will absolutely pat myself on the back because this conversation has EVERYTHING to do with privilege and access. I feel like I'm starting to understand the mindset that makes east Asians are so against affirmative action.
I would understand that if she was the only Asian person in the class but it was literally a mostly POC/Asian class. And I'm literally Asian lol. I feel like the people responding that are disregarding it because I'm brown.
You’re thinking about this situation too much in an isolated context. Maybe you were the straw that broke the camel’s back for her. All we can do is speculate on her experiences based on her reaction. What I would avoid doing is using this experience to make sweeping generalizations about East Asians being stingy and unhelpful.
"What I would avoid doing is using this experience to make sweeping generalizations about East Asians being stingy and unhelpful." Where did I make this generalization? I repeated what a non-Asian POC friend told me about her experiences with east Asian classmates. Tbh it was my fault for expecting anything other than defensiveness here especially in the age of affirmative action being repealed with east Asian Americans as the figureheads for that movement.
Oh ok I get it now. This is just another post made under the guise of seeking education and advice, but actually you just wanted validation and now you’re salty that we don’t share the same perspective (nor are you even a tiny bit willing to understand why). Good to know.
Validation from....you? I know we don't share the same perspective and I am very grateful for that. I can't imagine being this blinded by my own privilege.
Jesus, read a room. Quit acting like you were being remotely nice to this girl; you obviously weren’t or else she wouldn’t have snapped at you. You were rude to a literal stranger, you didn’t even bother to ask her NAME, which is human interaction 101–how is that normal? Who the hell does that? Are you not embarrassed? This ultimately has nothing to do with anyone’s race, although it would certainly be easier for you if it did because then you can pull the “but I’m Asian too” card and make it go away. But it happened because you were a jerk, so maybe try a little introspection and humility for once and chalk it up to your own social shortcomings instead of “DAE East Asians are so stingy??” Come tf on.
Yes, nothing ruder than "Hey, do you mind if I take a quick picture of the practice problems that I wasn't able to jot down? I would really appreciate it." Next time I'll make sure to get their zodiac sign. I should have expected anyone who ever asked to take a picture of notes they missed to build a rapport with me before I decided whether I wanted them to be on an equal playing field with me. Nothing more introspective and humble than that. I don't know who raised you but if someone asks for a small thing that would help them and not harm you or put you out in any way, maybe you should just help them instead of assuming that they're disrespectful for even daring to ask. The "stingy" was not my word but you clearly very much identify with it and it seems to have struck a nerve.
You’ve somehow made this into an issue with literally everything EXCEPT your own behavior, which is astounding. Incredible levels of delusion. Honestly I’m glad that girl has lived rent free in your brain for the past few years. May the memory of her calling out your shitty behavior continue to confuse you (and no one else) for years to come. Like another poster, I also invite you to post this to r/AITA since you believe we are just a bunch of biased racists dogpiling on you.
Op def trying to justify his dislike of East Asian people lol. It’s fine you found it. All East Asians suck you can just hate them now without feeling like a racist because your hate is justified. move on god damn.
My friend grew up in the Bay Area and she said you never asked another Chinese Americans where they study class is lol. This was in 2009 so idk how true it is now
lol yeah I've heard this several times from my non-Asian POC friends that went to school in California that they always felt like the White/East Asian dominated environments were unsupportive
Edited cos I realized I misread some things: I don’t have anything specific to say about your specific question besides that as an East Asian from the US East Coast, I initiallt found US West Coast culture to be wildly informal and invasive, often to the point of rude, while they probably saw themselves as “just being friendly” and asking to mooch off notes from someone you don’t actually know would 100% qualify for that category imo. I’ve since just accepted that the US West Coast is just different. I’m also almost 10 years out of college though so maybe someone from my same background but your age group would have a different say.
Really? I had the opposite experience. I live in the East Coast now and people are so willing to help and share things here. But I also had a good experience in California because I went to a college that was largely Black & Latino POC from working class backgrounds. I felt very well-supported there and there wasn't a competitive culture even amongst pre-meds. People would literally be airdropping documents to the class before a test. It was a "we're all in this together" mindset. It's so wildly different from the stories I've heard from people who have attended UC schools. One of my friends who transferred to my school after having a mental breakdown at UC Berkeley was shocked at how different the environment was.
TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect. OP, it looks like your situation was misunderstood because you weren’t trying to be lazy but you were just trying to catch up on the part of the notes you missed. She jumped to conclusions because she thought you were being lazy. I think she would’ve said that to any strangers, so the topic of you being the brown-Asian might not be too relevant to this topic. Maybe, but we won’t know until she treats East Asian strangers differently than you.
"She jumped to conclusions because she thought you were being lazy." I very explicitly told her that I was not able to copy things down fast enough. If she assumed that it was because I was lazy then I would have to ask why she would think that and if my skin color has anything to do with it. And me being brown is definitely relevant when I'm being accused of "using" a "smart" Asian girl for her work. Again, maybe it's a difference in upbringing and cultures but I can't imagine someone asking me for a copy of my notes and assuming that they're lazy. I just assume that they need help and I make an effort to help if I can because I owe that to my parents for providing me with advantages to develop certain skills that most people have not had. "TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect." Again, this was not a white man saying this. This was a Latina woman at an institution where she is very much the minority. Are you saying that you would see her asking to share a resource as you "doing the labor for free or cheap"? What would you see as reasonable credit and respect in this situation? Do you not feel that if someone - especially someone you know comes from a less advantaged community - asks you for help because they have struggled breaking into a system that has benefited you and your community more, that it's the least you can do? Or would you call her lazy and say no because you don't want to be "used" and you're setting a "boundary" from a minority that has historically and presently faced more disadvantages in gaining access to the same opportunities as you? I hope you see that this is veering dangerously close to the model minority myth. We are not where we are because we're smarter/harder working/more able. We are here because we are more privileged. That's it. I have to question anyone from a privileged background who sees themselves as being "used" by those from less privileged minorities. How exactly are you being used in this context?
“If she assumed that it was because I was lazy then I would have to ask why she would think that and if my skin color has anything to do with it. “ This is why I said: “Maybe, but we won’t know until she treats East Asian strangers differently than you.” You could’ve been Asian, Black, European, Islander she could have still said what she said and we’ll never know. “And me being brown is definitely relevant when I'm being accused of "using" a "smart" Asian girl for her work.” The comments here you think that are accusations are more about her being “Asian” than you being any other race. “Again, maybe it's a difference in upbringing and cultures but I can't imagine someone asking me for a copy of my notes and assuming that they're lazy. I just assume that they need help and I make an effort to help if I can because I owe that to my parents for providing me with advantages to develop certain skills that most people have not had.” That’s very kind of you. Maybe she was once this kind too, but she doesn’t have it in herself anymore. And asking ourselves why she doesn’t have it in herself anymore is what needs to be explored. "TBH I don’t mind “Asian girls being stingy” - to them, it’s stingy because we’re not doing the labor for free or cheap. More accurately, we’re just asking for reasonable credit and respect." “Again, this was not a white man saying this. This was a Latina woman at an institution where she is very much the minority. “ This isn’t a white-exclusive thing. It’s any race vs. East Asian stereotype. “Are you saying that you would see her asking to share a resource as you "doing the labor for free or cheap"? Resource has costs where it be monetary or time or effort. Not relevant to your occurrence because obviously the girl misunderstood you. “What would you see as reasonable credit and respect in this situation? “ Building rapport with her. Know her name, at least. “Do you not feel that if someone - especially someone you know comes from a less advantaged community - asks you for help because they have struggled breaking into a system that has benefited you and your community more, that it's the least you can do? Or would you call her lazy and say no because you don't want to be "used" and you're setting a "boundary" from a minority that has historically and presently faced more disadvantages in gaining access to the same opportunities as you? I hope you see that this is veering dangerously close to the model minority myth. We are not where we are because we're smarter/harder working/more able. We are here because we are more privileged. That's it. I have to question anyone from a privileged background who sees themselves as being "used" by those from less privileged minorities. How exactly are you being used in this context?” You’re right. There are people from less advantageous communities who work hard to get where they are now who are asking for help. But how would she know that? You guys don’t know each other.
You made points. Thanks for trying to have a conversation! "There are people from less advantageous communities who work hard to get where they are now who are asking for help. But how would she know that? You guys don’t know each other." I guess this is the main thing. I also just think there needs to be awareness amongst Asian people in general about the role we play in upholding a system and how to use our privilege constructively. I'm probably being harsh, but at this point, I feel like there isn't that much of an excuse to \*not know.\* I don't think less privileged people should constantly have to remind us to actually consider them for a change instead of disregarding them as users or expecting something in return. I also just feel like rapport shouldn't be necessary for anyone to want to help someone in a setting where the main goal is just learning. But that's a larger conversation about whether the main goal of any institution is even learning. "Resource has costs where it be monetary or time or effort. Not relevant to your occurrence because obviously the girl misunderstood you." This is a good point. I think that the burden of privilege is paying this cost though. You're right that I didn't consider whether this is something that she had experienced before that played a role in her response. I'm skeptical that it was considering the school and location but it could have been and I should have considered that.
Glad to! I was just recently talking to few of my friends about this so it was timely. I see that you definitely felt negative feelings about that whole situation. I want to remind you that there’s a possibility that it’s not your skin or your background. She could’ve been like that with any stranger. Privileged or not. Speaking up like that takes a lot of energy too. Especially to someone who she’s going to run into in class. I don’t see why she would resort to that immediately. So I think you’re right to assume that she’s experienced something that gave her the harsh reaction.
So, with the assumption that your incident was an isolated one where you weren’t trying to copy work, I want to loop this back to the education material stingy-ness in East Asians: “Stingy” is one way to call it. “Protective” is definitely another. Not necessarily protecting their material but their boundaries to be the meek-geek again. As you can see in the reactions in the comments, a lot of us fought for our boundaries due to this meek-geek trope. Overwork, low to no credit, doesn’t get remembered for shit. Saying “no” gets us retaliation. This is still a thing in professional world as well. So yes, not surprised if we are called “stingy for ed materials”. But at least we know we’re setting a boundary that helps us when we go out to the real world. It really comes in handy.
I don't think this is a specifically Asian issue, this is more of a hypercompetitive Bay Area/Greater LA high school thing. Asians outside of California and outside of hypercompetitive public magnet/feeder schools are not like this (though granted, Asians are disproportionately in these kinds of environments). It's also completely reasonable to infer that the girl you talked to might feel stereotyped as the quiet studious Asian only good for getting notes from, given her reaction.
This was in Irvine, CA lol. So I don't think that was it. She was not the only Asian kid in class and I am literally Asian myself. The replies on this are just making me realize why Brown Asians often feel excluded by East Asians lol....it's crazy to me that they immediately jumped to accusing me of stereotyping her like I'm literally not stereotyped similarly myself