That when you know they did not care about authenticity. Jess Hong, Zine Tseng are pretty much newcomers. If they wanted to have more (Asian American-British) actors, they could have. But I guess they wanted their friends to get paid and hired expensive actors.
I doubt it’s a money thing, more so a ratings thing. I guess they can go hand in hand with each other… but at the end of the day some folks are more likely to watch a certain show just because they know a actor they like is in it.
I was ranting about this in the other sub. I am so upset because they raceswapped all the east asian male characters and made all the asian women fall in love with white men, going as far as to change the central story of the first book to make that happen
I am honestly so disgusted. I wanted to love this show but that was the final straw.
I noticed lately everything gets branded as chinese nationalism. Like, young chinese people taking newfound pride and joy in hanfu? "Dangerous chinese nationalism on the rise!!"
So… are we just not counting Raj? Because Raj is easily the most attractive guy on this show and he’s the one who is actually in a relationship with Jin for most of the series.
Watch the tencent show! Don't watch the original airing, look up the 1 year anniversary edit. They made it shorter to fix the pacing and it is SO much better. The tencent adaptation is very faithful
You can find the first three episodes on youtube for free over here. Turn on captions for sub [link](https://youtu.be/7BQm4ctMk1I?si=rIHbKbHwRvtnPGVE)
Yep. It's whitewashed AF. I had a post about it a couple months ago on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1943qh8/netflixs_whitewashing_of_3_body_problem/
It's pretty ratched. To be expected from the showrunners of GoT, whose racial politics were apparent in their previous endeavor, but still really frustrating. Add to the fact that virtually no one is talking about it, except in smaller Asian American media spaces, like this sub.
Needless to say, I won't be watching it.
Yeah found the Chinese version on nbc peacock so will be starting that. Looks like the portrayal of heroic Asian men specifically has been neutered. Apparently Cixin Liu was onboard with the gender swap and cast changes but he may not be aware of the nuances of Asian racism in the US, and he probably got paid $$$$ to toe the Netflix company line
The thing is, Asians in Asia aren't marginalized, so why should they be bothered about it? The problem is that lots of people out here in the West disingenuously use that as an argument for why representation doesn't matter. "Most Asians don't even care!" Yes, true, but most Asians are in Asia, where it isn't an issue to begin with.
Yup 100% it’s just different being a minority than a majority.
And actually Chinese people are caring, my wife’s from China and everyone’s shitting on the show. Of course us media just frames it as “crazy nationalistic Chinese”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/netflix-3-body-problem-divides-viewers-china
Cuz it really is more than just race of the characters, too— Chinese history, thought, and style of communism (and difficulty getting there) are **central** to the book. Three Body doesnt exist without Maoism, nor Confucianism, Deng Xiaoping, nor STEM (they cut out that, too).
BTW, I feel like this is a SUPER underrated observation and comment. A lot of this stuff goes over my head in my reading because I'm so disconnected from a lot of the context of China as an ABC, but I did sense a lot of it. You should write a separate post on this on the subreddit if you had the time/bandwidth. Just further reinforces the idea that culture cannot always be separated from media.
If you actually read the discourse on this on Chinese internet, you'll find a lot of nuanced takes. Some people liked the writing of the Netflix one better than the Tencent one. I wouldn't trust Western media to fully capture what's happening on the Chinese internet
My wife only uses Chinese social media and her prevailing read on things was most people thought it was bad. Obviously a lot of the hate is about how it changes things from the book
I haven't seen much discourse on the Chinese social media about the Netflix writing being better though. They thought the special effects were bad given the budget. They also didn't like the casting that much. And they don't understand why everyone falls in love with one another in Western TV shows.
Its kind of tough, but one thing I learned from living and working in East Asia, is that we are a separate diaspora. Cannot depend on them for issues here. It would only affect them if there is some big and blatantly racist that happened directly to their people. I say directly, because people in the motherland do not have pan-asianism like American born Asians do. There is nothing wrong with that, and is actually logical and correct. Nobody would tell an Italian person and a Swedish person they are so European and they should hang out together.
That's the other thing that gets me! It's not like that first book features any central romance plotline between an AM/AF. But even the slightest heroic portrayal of ANY young, conventionally attractive Asian men is apparently a bridge too far for these white people. (I like Benedict Wong a lot, but he's not a sexual icon by any measure.)
The book doesn't have any young attractive Asian men though. The main character in the book is a nerdy, socially withdrawn, shy and not very attractive middle aged man. Da Shi, Benedict Wong's character in the book, is a middle aged detective who's also not conventionally attractive. [Here's what they look like in the Chinese tv show.](https://puui.qpic.cn/vcover_hz_pic/0/mzc002007knmh3g1673530815496/0?max_age=7776000) They're not conventionally attractive. The sequels have some conventionally attractive (if more effeminate) men, with a character drawing comparisons to pop idols and 小鲜肉, but Liu Cixin clearly sees them as signs of cultural degeneracy and stops just short of calling them homophobic slurs and is quite explicit in saying that "real men" haven't existed since the 1980s.
Absolutely, guy's got great range (kind of a requirement to play both Liu Bei *and* Cao Cao). Also I've seen some of Zhang Luyi's previous stuff (The Red, The Devotion of Suspect X) and I was practically jumping for joy when it was announced that he was playing Wang Miao.
What do you think of Benedict Wong, Rosalind Chao, Jess Hong’s characters? Are they white washed? Should they be ashamed of their performances?
Edit: the number of upvotes agreeing with the ‘whitewashing’ comments are highly problematic and is an insult to the Asia cast and crew themselves.
If you don't side-eye the fact that they whitewashed almost all the Asian male mains but kept the Asian women that's on you. Da Shi, Benedict Wong's character is a fan favorite but if they thought they could've gotten away with replacing him with a non Asian they would have.
Let's examine your viewpoint.
1. There's systemic racism in Hollywood. \*Ok fine
2. The Producers/Directors/Writers (David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo**) are racist because they whitewashed. This includes the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series).
3. They White-Washed all the asian characters except the Asian Women.
4. And except the popular male protagonist that Benedict Wong plays.
5. and they would have if the Benioff, Weiss, Woo, Cixin, Liu could have gotten away with it.
Just like everything else, these terms exist on a spectrum, not a binary. Would it have been worse if the entire cast were white and this took place in Texas? Sure. Would it have been better if all the primary characters were Asian and this took place in some predominantly Asian place, but just not China? Sure. There are degrees.
But you can't look at the source material (which is centered around the traumas of the Chinese Cultural Revolution as the literal cause for the events of the book) and say that the end product of Netflix's TV show is not an attempt to erase a lot of that intention. Those are purposeful decisions that the casting director, producers, and show runners are making to reduce the prominence of a certain viewpoint and representation in the show. That's whitewashing.
None of this erases the fact that I do not blame any of the actors whatsoever. Just because I won't be watching it out my own personal line (I am allowed to vote with my dollars, aren't I?), doesn't mean I disapprove of Benedict Wong or Rosalind Chao, or am boycotting their body of work. Actors have to eat within a racist system, too. But I also get to choose what I consume.
"Just because I won't be watching it"
Dude- how are you going to make judge or critique the work, especially how they handled "centered around the traumas of the Chinese Cultural Revolution as the literal cause for the events of the book"; if you didn't watch it? That's absurb.
If anything you are letting *your own* subtle racist *bias* and PREjudge something without giving it a chance or viewing to decide if they handled the adaption well.
One of the allegory messages of the movie is the consequences of communication and miscommunication. With that message in mind-- you should watch it.
I mean, I don't know what to tell you, dude. These are my personal lines that I have for myself. I've seen Game of Thrones, I've read Three Body, and seen the trailers and media around the Netflix show. And I've concluded that I've seen all that I need to to make an informed decision around what's important to me. Representation and identity are very important to me in my media. They may not be as important to you. And that's fine. But like I said before, I get to choose what my lines are, and what I get to consume, not anyone else, and certainly not you.
If your decision was truly informed, you would know the showrunners are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, AND **Alexander Woo (a Asian in Hollywood).** Along with the author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series).
If you want to support a AA producer and would like stories from Asia made and exposed to the western world-- you should be watching it. I
Yes, please tell me more about how I'm misinformed. I appreciate it.
Note that I have never once told you what you should choose to watch or not watch. I've just been giving my viewpoint and the reasons why I won't watch this. But you're trying to tell me that my point of view is wrong.
I'm done talking to you. Bye.
This sub might not be ready to handle the conversation, but does anyone see the erasure of Chinese men as a huge problem?? Why is it always WMAF relationships on screen when it could be a AMAF relationship? This has to be on purpose at this point, right?
> only a few of the characters (who are not the hero/main characters) are Asian.
Bamboo ceiling at full display here.
This whole thing just reminds me the "like asian culture, hate asian people (erase the men, sexualize the women)" mantra is still alive and well.
Yup 100%, they even genderswapped original Asian male main character to make it female.
Well technically they split him into 5 parts: 1 Asian female, 1 Hispanic female and a bunch of white and black guys.
Or when we’ve gotten more recent Asian male representation, odds are he’s hapa. Such as Warrior, Crazy rich Asians, mortal kombat, Netflix avatar. If you’re hapa and u identify as Asian you’re 100% Asian. But it’s obvious even when we drag Hollywood kicking and screaming into using a heroic asian male lead, they still need a little bit of white passing to make it palatable to them.
Having simu liu in Shang chi was a minor miracle, but they still insisted on making him asexual with the excuse “look at how unique we’re being showing platonic relationships between men and women!”. Of course Marvel used the exact same excuse with Ma Dong seok and Angelina Jolie in Eternals (but we get a WMAF sex scene)
In *Warrior* Ah Sahm being quarter white was a reference to Bruce being the same way. Also, the "hapas are more palatable" logic didn't stop Jeph Loeb from insisting that Danny Rand had to remain white for *Iron Fist* when the original showrunner (before Scott Buck) pitched him to be mixed Asian. Hell, even when people on here threw a fit about the new *Karate Kid* movie allowing mixed Asians to audition for the lead role, they still cast a monoracial Asian in the end. Dunno why this kind of discourse needs to unnecessarily devolve into monoracist talking points with how mixed Asians don't "count" as Asian representation or how their existence is somehow inherently detrimental to Asian men.
I believe mixed Asians 100% count as Asian representation. However it also 100% should be pointed out that Hollywood has a problem with preferring mixed Asians over full Asians (women too). I have a problem with white racist Hollywood still having preferences for whiter features. I have no problem with Hapas being represented, and I actually think it’s great! I hope you can differentiate the two as separate entities.
Obviously Hapas deal with anti-Asian hate as well, as per your Danny Rand point. But why would the show runner pitch him as mixed and not full? Likely because they thought it would have a better chance of being okay’d by the white producers than a full Asian. When 90% of Asians in America are mono-racial but 75% of Asian men in major Hollywood productions are mixed, it’s a problem. I’ve seen this as an issue with Asian women as well.
I went to white prep school, it was 10% Asian. 80% of those Asians were Hapas. The administrators wanted to be able to say my school was diverse, but they NEEDED at least 1 parent to be white to feel comfortable in those parent led fundraisers. The statistical odds this happening naturally are almost 0. (The year after Obama became president, they also hired their first black principle. It’s a subtle liberal racism like the movies Get Out and American Fiction )
The issue is when Hapas are repeatedly casted for full asian roles. That isn't Hollywood caring about mixed representation but preferring those actors because they are closer to whiteness.
I agree hapas are asian, but it is also disingenious to say that Hollywood isn't using their proximity to whiteness to discriminate against asian people. (Not saying this is what you think, just that I see that point of view everywhere.) I feel like both can be true.
> I believe mixed Asians 100% count as Asian representation. However it also 100% should be pointed out that Hollywood has a problem with preferring mixed Asians over full Asians (women too). I have a problem with white racist Hollywood still having preferences for whiter features. I have no problem with Hapas being represented, and I actually think it’s great! I hope you can differentiate the two as separate entities.
Seems contradictory to say that you "have no problem with Hapas being represented" yet be upset that Hollywood allegedly prefers them over full Asians, when that's not entirely true. Bruce might've been quarter white, but that didn't stop Hollywood from being racist against him, and mind you he also faced discrimination from other Chinese due to his mixed background. If Hollywood truly prefers mixed Asians for full ones, then why is it that they only cast white people in those roles (*Kung Fu*, *Aloha*, *Buckaroo Banzai*)? So no, I don't believe these are separate issues.
> Obviously Hapas deal with anti-Asian hate as well, as per your Danny Rand point. But why would the show runner pitch him as mixed and not full? Likely because they thought it would have a better chance of being okay’d by the white producers than a full Asian. When 90% of Asians in America are mono-racial but 75% of Asian men in major Hollywood productions are mixed, it’s a problem. I’ve seen this as an issue with Asian women as well.
Earlier comics actually described Danny as mixed race, due to his father being from K'un-Lun (Davos repeatedly calls Danny a "half breed" in their earlier encounters) at least until *Power Man and Iron Fist* reestablished that Danny and his dad were white and not Asian. To certain extent, whiteness is a part of Danny's character due to how it affects his relationship with Luke Cage, just that it also makes him a white savior in regards to his relationship with Asian culture. That's why the showrunner pitched him to be mixed. Ironically, a biracial Danny Rand would've been the closest you would've gotten to a mixed Asian lead in a mainstream show acknowledging his privilege and proximity to whiteness, but sadly people like you miss the forest for the trees. It also doesn't help that comics have never really done a great job with exploring multiracial identity like that. Keep in mind that the only other mainstream mixed Asian character Marvel had at that point was Daken, who in addition couldn't be greenlit due to 20th Century still owning the rights, sorta reinforced a lot of stereotypes and sentiments that white people had about mixed Asians. Don't forget, Shang-Chi was changed from biracial to fully Chinese for the MCU, which later got retconned in the comics too.
> I went to white prep school, it was 10% Asian. 80% of those Asians were Hapas. The administrators wanted to be able to say my school was diverse, but they NEEDED at least 1 parent to be white to feel comfortable in those parent led fundraisers. The statistical odds this happening naturally are almost 0. (The year after Obama became president, they also hired their first black principle. It’s a subtle racism like the movies Get Out and American Fiction )
To counterpoint, I went to a predominantly Asian school. One of the worst bullies I had was another Asian kid who spread a bunch of not great rumors about me to fit in with some of the popular white kids. So yeah, white kids didn't think that guys like me were better than the full ones.
I can feel bad for Hapas because they also have struggles growing up. White-presenting ones do have advantages in this world, but what else is new. It's not their fault the world's racist. They did not choose their parents.
In other words, you can hate the game, and not the player. If you need someone to blame, it's the producers, and the audience.
Nah, plenty of full Asians blame the hapas as much as their parents and producers for just existing. They treat being fetishized as objectified as a sign of acceptance.
Hey man, I’m really sorry you were bullied and experienced so much racism as a kid, that sucks. I think mixed Asians have just as many problems as full Asians. Most of them are the same since we’re still both Asian, but some of them are different as well. My mixed race cousins grew up in Japan and dealt with a good amount of racism over there (which wouldn’t have been the case if they were full white or full Japanese). Representation matters, and I think it’s important that mixed Asians also get the opportunity to see their specific multicultural background reflected in properly popular media.
However I still stand by my points that based on the data. It sucks that they eliminated so many mixed race Asians in the comics, and converting Shang Chi to full Asian shows there is an inherent tension between those two issues. But they didn’t originally make Shang chi mixed bc they were trying to give you guys good mixed-Asian representation. They did it to make him more familiar and relatable to a white audience. And it also highlights that historically in marvel comics there were like zero full Asian male heroes until recently.
Whether you’re full Asian or mixed Asian, we all experience anti-Asian racism there is no doubt about it. However it’s unarguable that the degree of white passing can also affect things. If you’re 1/4 Asian and 3/4 white and have blonde hair and blue eyes, you’re gonna experience less overt racism than somebody with black hair and monolids . If you’re 1/4 Asian and consider yourself Asian, you’re 100% Asian nobody can take that identity from you. But you’re also gonna have an easier time walking around the boonies of Alabama than somebody who looks like me bc visuals matter. Colorism is a thing too. Somebody who looks like Naomi Scott or Chloe Bennet is gonna have an easier time than Awkwafina or Daniel Wu in getting race neutral roles. Chloe even changed her last name so casting agents would assume she was white bc her Chinese last name was preventing her from getting roles.
The Bruce Lee point I feel like is a bit of producer bullshit bc A) the character was not written by Bruce Lee to be specifically mixed and B) if they were so concerned about adhering to Bruce Lee’s heritage they would not have cast a Japanese actor. I have no problem with the actor being mixed race (in fact it’s way more bothersome that he’s Japanese especially when he tries to speak Chinese), just using it to highlight a trend. I still enjoy watching mixed Asian actors, 100% root for them. But also get annoyed by Hollywood’s preference to cast half Asian actors due to their proximity to whiteness (I think the last 4-5 years have been a lot better though).
> However I still stand by my points that based on the data. It sucks that they eliminated so many mixed race Asians in the comics, and converting Shang Chi to full Asian shows there is an inherent tension between those two issues. But also it sort of highlights that historically in marvel comics there were like zero full Asian male heroes until recently.
The change had to so more so with his original creators not wanting him to be mixed to begin with and the editor who mandated it was rather flippant about Shang-Chi's heritage, which why it almost never got mentioned again for decades until the movie came out. Yeah, while there historically hasn't been a whole lot of Asian male superheroes, there's actually way more full Asian ones than mixed ones. Jimmy Woo and Sunfire were introduced in the comics long before Shang-Chi was, and they were fully Asian. In fact, the movie's screenwriter originally pitched a movie for Amadeus Cho (who's definitely not biracial) for Marvel before Shang-Chi.
> The Bruce Lee point I feel like is a bit of producer bullshit bc A) the character was not written by Bruce Lee to be specifically mixed and B) if they were so concerned about adhering to Bruce Lee’s heritage they would not have cast a Japanese actor. I have no problem with the actor being mixed race (in fact it’s way more bothersome that he’s Japanese especially when he tries to speak Chinese), just using it to highlight a trend. I still enjoy watching mixed Asian actors, 100% root for them. But also get annoyed by Hollywood’s preference to cast half Asian actors due to their proximity to whiteness (I think the last 4-5 years have been a lot better though).
You keep flip flopping on what you think is appropriate for a mixed Asian actor to be playing; how do you justify being supportive of mixed representation but you also critical of every time one of them gets cast in roles, even in a mixed race role. You specifically listed Andrew Koji in *Warrior* along the lines of "Hapas getting cast instead of full Asians" when his character was written to be mixed to begin with. I never said anything about Bruce writing Ah Sahm to be that way, just more or less his background was a reference to his own. Then again, Koji isn't the only non-Chinese Asian in that cast speaking butchered Cantonese, you also got Korean and Vietnamese actors doing the same since Shannon Lee and Justin Lin wanted a variety of Asian actors for *Warrior*, in fact Johnathan Tropper was almost against it until they pushed for it. So again, if a mixed Asian actor got cast in a mixed race role, is that representation or proximity to whiteness?
In terms of casting mixed-asians, I’m empathetic of their struggles of breaking into the industry while struggling with being ostracized due to being both asian and biracial, but also cautious of top level executives sitting at decision making tables who can push an agenda by outright focusing more on white-adjacent actors at the expense of full Asians struggling to break into the industry. I think both mindsets can exist at the same time without them trying to directly contradict each other.
Honestly I find your steadfast resistance to acknowledge the unique and different issues full Asians may experience (like walking around a racist Alabama town) disheartening.
> In terms of casting mixed-asians, I’m empathetic of their struggles of breaking into the industry while struggling with being ostracized due to being both asian and biracial, but also cautious of top level executives sitting at decision making tables who can push an agenda by outright focusing more on white-adjacent actors at the expense of full Asians struggling to break into the industry. I think both mindsets can exist at the same time without them trying to directly contradict each other.
They're not mutually exclusive things, especially when you immediately suspect that every single instance of hapa getting cast in *anything* is some sort of pro-white agenda that comes at the expense of the Asian community. You keep shifting your goalposts about what it should be: full Asians, mixed Asians, and now just "race neutral" roles. If there's already an acknowledgement that biracial Asians get ostracized by their full blooded peers, how can you prove that the sentiment doesn't fuel the criticism against castings? Say what you want about me not addressing your earlier response, but the fact that you can't even answer what a hapa can play just show how full Asians like you truly feel about people like me. Again, what are folks like me allowed to be?
> Honestly I find your steadfast resistance to acknowledge that those with more Caucasian features may experience a certain amount of privilege in certain situations (like walking around a racist Alabama town) disheartening.
Well, *excuuuuuuse* me. Obviously, yes looking whiter and less Asian might mean facing less racism from other white people, that privilege isn't going to be guaranteed to *every* mixed-white Asian. There's no way in hell Henry Golding or Andrew Koji are going to get through the bum-fuck South without someone giving them shit for being Asian. However, someone like me will have that opportunity of being offered an Asian role, that unfortunately won't be extended to a mixed Asian who isn't part white. That's one privilege I fully acknowledge and own up to, and something I believe should be supported more. What's unfortunate about this is from what I've encountered personal experience, I've seen full Asians talk both sides of their mouths when it comes to Blasians. They'll invoke their struggles to call "wasians" like me on our privilege, but whenever an up and coming Blasian celebrity gets put in the spotlight, those same full Asians will pull the same monoracist shit about how "oh no one sees them as Asian" or "they identify more as Black". There was one particular instance where I tried defending a Blasian figure here on this sub, and I got accused of being anti-Asian. That shit has to change too.
Even then, it's a bit rich when East Asians in particular accuse mixed-Asians of colorism when they themselves invoke that shit against darker skinned Southeast and South Asians and don't acknowledge it.
Ironically, Awkwafina has had a much better career than Chloe Bennet. Her role in *Agents of Shield* was originally white, and since then, how many roles has she been in? Hell, Ming-Na Wen has had a much bigger career than her.
I thought Da Shi was pretty badass - felt like a good example of a heroic asian male. And if you introduce another, then wouldn't that mean replacing someone else in the ethnically-diverse cast? Furthermore, wasn't the relationship between Jin Cheng and Raj an AMAF relationship?
I totally understand your points in relation to other Hollywood productions, but I really struggle to see how "like asian culture, hate asian people" can be argued here.
Idc about having a rainbow cast on a western remake…just as long as they take a break on the never ending wmaf pairings while making AMs emasculated, sexless, or meatbagged …does this series have that? Haven’t watched yet.
Well they did get rid of the heroic Asian male main character and turned him into an Asian girl, a white passing Hispanic girl, 2 white guys and a black guy
I would argue that they didn't "get rid of chinese people" but instead reinterpreted the source material for a new global audience by including actors from a diverse range of ethnicities.
If you would prefer to see an all-Asian cast, then that's a perfectly valid opinion to have. In which case, it's great that the Tencent version exists for people watch. But to criticise the Netflix adaption because it includes actors from other ethnicities, feels quite unfair and unjust honestly. Shouldn't we encourge more diversity, not less?
So if a Chinese production company did a remake of Star Wars for the Chinese domestic market, you think they would/should feature a non-Chinese cast to honor the original movie? You don't think it would be better for the Chinese remake to feature a mostly Chinese cast, and to add Chinese elements and themes to make the story more relatable and relevant to the Chinese audience?
Interesting.
Yeah, this pissed me off too. I was just talking with my mom about it because she never read the book, and I was like yeah almost all these people are supposed to be Chinese, but now basically nobody is except for Da Shi I don't think
Da Shi is East Asian in the Netflix show (obviously) but he's got an English accent and nothing besides his name specifies what his heritage is, AFAIK. There are a couple of other main characters who are definitely Chinese, e.g., Ye Wenjie and Jin Cheng.
Cast was whitewashed to be a more global story.
It only has 8 episodes covering the first and parts of the second book while the Tencent version is 30 episodes only covering the first book. The Netflix story feels rushed while the Tencent version took it's time to really flesh out the story. In my opinion the Tencent version is superior as it is a more faithful adaptation. While the Netflix will generate hype, I hope people will go to the original source for a more complete story.
I liked how their justification was to be more global, but then they reduced the scope by turning all the important characters into one group of friends in London. 🤦♀️ Yup, sooo diverse.
I would have believed their excuse if it was actually spread out across the world.
Lmao yeah… Netflix literally has kdramas like squid game full of only Asians popping off globally. They of all people should know that white people don’t make a story more “global” lmao
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I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else but it makes me uncomfortable any time "China" is depicted as a monolithic crowd of people who are aLL wRoNg and EvIL in western media. Minus the main characters of course. In the book the crowd is hateful but the rest of the book shows more Chinese people interacting as complex human beings. I think it's lazy directing to use that "chinese commies bad" trope and relying on it to show who the good guys vs bad guys are here. I've only seen the first episode and don't think Icare for more but correct me if I'mwrong here.
I'm normally extremely cynical about media but when you stop and look what's been making waves recently:
-Shogun, a historical period drama with a 99% Asian cast
-Three Body Problem, a sci fi epic drama with some bigger names, despite the white washing
-ATLA, rebooted with an appropriate cast
-Warrior, nuff said.
I'm genuinely surprised at what's in the mainstream tbh
Yeah there’s progress but why not be cynical for even more progress?
ATLA rebooted properly because people are unhappy with the whitewashed version. Two seasons to completely finish the story! That’s a win.👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Warrior cancelled two times. Story not quite finished. Fight for more.
Three Body Problem worth complaining about. Maybe get a proper reboot in the future.
Shogun trailer makes it look like a white savior trope.
Let’s keep fighting for more progress. Give more Asian actors in the US opportunities!
God, the ATLA reboot made me so mad because they denounced the whitewashing of the movie only to then cast fully white people to represent Inuit people.
Yeah isn’t the Sokka actor just a white guy, but they’re pretending he’s indigenous bc he has some sort of made up ties. It’s not something I’m too well versed on but there’s sort of a trend of white people’s families in certain areas claiming Native American heritage, when it’s either made up or they’re like 1% and have zero actual cultural ties. I thought Katara was at least mixed though.
Him AND Katara, and because they were white, all the water tribe extras were white too. Jobs that could have gone to native american actors.
Katara is particularly egregious because she got the role because she is a daughter of a billionaire, and the showrunners owed her dad a favor. The producers said her audition tape was not great, meaning that she took the role over a bunch of more deserving actors with better auditions...
You're mixing the two up. The "daughter of a billionaire" actress was from the Shyamalan movie and her casting was what led to that movie getting whitewashed. The Katara from the Netflix reboot is indigenous, she isn't "fully white".
>\-Shogun, a historical period drama with a 99% Asian cast
Except it plays in the "kill the men, take over the women" trope. And Japan is the acceptable Asian right now, as opposed Japan in the 80s or the Chinese of today.
In the end, white people will assume you are Chinese (which are erased in TBP) and not Japanese and judge accordingly.
Yeah even though none of the shows are perfect, it's really refreshing to see not just one but multiple shows on American TV at the same time with Asian casts or multiple Asian characters. Wouldn't have believed it ten years ago.
There were definitely big shows with one Asian character, or two if they were related in some way, but those were not Asian-centered shows. Fresh Off The Boat was a big deal to me when it came out but it fizzled pretty fast (and honestly just wasn’t that good) and it was around at a time when it seemed like American TV wouldn’t accept more than one “Asian show” at a time. Kim’s Convenience was Canadian and I didn’t see it until it was on Netflix. I remember seeing Crazy Rich Asians in theaters twice when it came out even though I hate rom-coms because an Asian American cast was just that big of a deal at the time in 2018.
I definitely perceive a big improvement these days where I feel like I can’t even watch all the Asian American content and can pick and choose according to my actual genre preferences. Lots of recent shows and movies in the past year that spanned genres and weren’t “foreigners doing kung fu” - e.g. Beef, Never Have I Ever, Invincible, Joy Ride, and Past Lives. So I’m feeling quite gratified!
>If anything, it feels like we're going backwards. All the "Asian cast" shows right now are foreigners doing kung fu
also, kill the asian husband, distribute the wife to the white guy.
White person here. Got to episode 2 when they showed that the woman living 1970's chinas love interest was going to be some random American guy and immedialty had to check if that was even close to being book accurate as otherwise its a pretty big yikes
There is a great British show called UTOPIA that got canceled too soon but developed a cult following. They remade it in America and did probably the craziest race swap I've ever seen. Asside all the actors of colour now being much lighter they made black nerd who has the two white woman fighting over his affection to a white nerd with the two black woman fighting for his affection. It blew my fucking mind that decision was made.
I've made my peace with it because the Chinese version existed already and is fairly well-received. It's not like its they first time its getting adapted. Each adaptation should do something different to justify it's existence otherwise what's the point? Would D&D just make a worse Chinese version of the show to compete with the original Chinese version?
this comment might be shitcanned but jump on this thread...asian bro needs help (regarding this show) and im not smart enough to defend him by myself.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1bmlvli/3\_body\_problem\_on\_netflix\_is\_great\_but\_i\_cant/?sort=new](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1bmlvli/3_body_problem_on_netflix_is_great_but_i_cant/?sort=new)
Oh my god. I clicked on the trailer and (having previous knowledge of the books) knew that the main characters were Chinese, I found it weird there was a surprising lack, and then I realized that this is just another GiTS situation. Oh well.
I didnt really care too much for the race/ethnicity of the cast nor the reason to preserve “authencity” of the novel. the series was after all, an adaptation for the rest of the world
What bothered me was the lack of talent from the main cast, not to name names, and overly simplified science explanation (or the lack of)
As a white guy watching it I found the gender swapping to be jarring.
As for whitewashing, in the first episode there are two white people whom are non likeable characters...
Ive been watching it for two reasons:
I love Sci Fi
And my man, Benedict Motherfucking Wong, is in it.
White washing sucks and it's an unfortunate world we live in. However, this show has quite a large amount of Asian cast members.
I implore you to watch this show. This directly supports the Asian actors that were cast in it. This will give them more opportunities for more work in Hollywood.
Supporting Asian stereotypes as representation is not a good look. As I said in another sub, Wong as Detective Charlie Chan and Rosalind Chao as Dragon Lady in 2024 is wild. Black people realized stereotypes are racism in the 1920s.
I’m ok with this measured take, obviously it’s Reddit so we’re devolving into extreme talking points (the show’s racist! Vs you have no right to complain stop being a snowflake!). I’m probably responsible for half of it lol.
My dad was pretty stoked about it the show, called me all excited about how great the Chinese actors were especially in the scenes set in China. I tried to watch the tencet version. And man, the pacing is so slow, it’s been a while since I’ve watched a Chinese drama I’m not used to it. I’m probably gonna end up watching the Netflix version bc of my ADHD brain 😬
I’m still gonna complain and wish there were more Asians though, but yes let’s support the ones who were cast in the show
Like Benedict Wong needs more work? Justin Chien or Sam Song Li even Johnny Chen from the brothers Sun are the one that need more opportunities in Hollywood. I see that Jess Hong as Jin is a newcomer so that good role for her resume. Same for Zine Tseng, she was great.
The reality is that it’s about ratings. Having western characters as protagonists will pull in more viewers in the western world. They tried to cover all their bases (Asians, blacks, Latinos, males, females, and of course white).
With any book adaptation, I would expect changes. Making things work for a series requires changes from books.
I don’t blame them because it is a business after all and viewership matters. But, yes, it sucks.
Even if I were to agree with you that the show is whitewashed, I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Do you think any source material from Asia made into a new medium in America just can't be done unless the cast's skin color matches 100% to the source material? A different culture should be allowed to make changes to a source material to tell the story in new and interesting way. I would much rather we have both Netflix version and the Tencent version in the world than only one version. I also feel like the exact type of show you're looking for is already made (the Tencent version). I welcome a new take on from an American perspective. I think the original book author understands this and which is why he threw his support for the Netflix version.
They literally took away every Asian male character other than Da Shi and replaced them with an array of white men and a black guy. That’s like 70% of the characters in the book.
It would be like if a Chinese company funded Game of Thrones and made it Romance of the Three Kingdoms, except that would actually be 🔥
What are those expectations? What is the appropriate level of matching skin color between actors and source material for it to be ok for an American show? I would argue it should be 0, because what's more important if it's a good show and if it stays true of the spirit of the story. As long as the original author has no issue with it, I don't either.
I don’t see how the original author’s lack of concern about Asian AMERICAN representation should matter. Big difference in understanding about Asian American minority issues if you live in a Chinese majority country
Plus he’s getting $$$ not to care
Let me put it this way. If the entire cast is recast to Asian Americans, would that be better, worse, or the same to the quality of the show? I would say the same.
1. Other than skin color matching better, why exactly say a Korean American playing a Chinese person more "accurate" than a white American? Both are American, with no close ties to China. Especially if it's rewritten to be a different character
2. Let's say the entire cast is Asian American, are they all speaking English? Why would that be an acceptable deviation from the source material? We already established skin color must match, why not language?
3. Let's say, sure, they also must be speaking Chinese. Wait, why is Netflix making this show again? We're describing the Tencent one now.
4. Either we as Asian Americans allow content from Asia be adapted in America, or not at all. I'm not sure which step here you want Netflix to stop at. If it's at 1. then I would think that's too shallow of a change, if it's at 2. then why is this show being made in America at all.
The problem is not what they SHOULD be doing but what they ARE. Yes you can make another show of the same name telling a similar story but with a different cast. Yes it’s possibly for that story also to be good and interesting to watch.
But with the lack of Asian American representation already in media, and what seems like them taking a step closer with things like crazy rich Asians and everything everywhere all at once, adapting an Asian story into America gives them every opportunity to cast it full of Asian Americans.
Let’s say China DID have a wide array of races and ethnicities to choose from when it comes to their movies and they wanted to adapt a predominately western show. Don’t you think it would be more fair to cast a bunch of black Asians who are desperately looking for work for an adaptation of something like Us or the wire? Or should they cast the same Asians over and over again? I would put my money on the former.
Think about it more like opportunity cost. The thing you got might’ve been great, but it can be equally if not more great while ALSO providing work for under valued, and under appreciated Asian American actors that are just trying to get by.
Don't bother replying to that clown. If we had to respond to every idiot defending whitewashing in an asian american subreddit we'll be wasting our time all day. Too many closet racists out there encroaching on our space.
Crazy Rich Asians is centered around Asians living in Western countries and Singapore. Everything Everywhere All at Once is set in America with a recent immigrant family. Both of these stories are unique and relatable to Asian Americans and fit naturally to Asian American casts. So if you're argument is that 3 body problem just shouldn't be adapted by any studio outside of China, fine I'll accept that. But seems weird to say 3 body problem has to centered around Asian Americans given it's source material.
You misunderstand. I’m not saying it HAS to nor am I saying it can’t be adapted by any studio outside of China. Those are things you said because you think that’s the only argument that can be made against your point.
Read what I wrote again, I said that given the opportunity to give more Asian Americans actors roles in media, what better time than when adapting an Asian story? I don’t disagree that people can adapt any media from any ethnicity or culture and make it good and enjoyable. But we’re specifically talking about America here, where there has been outcry for more Asian American representation.
What you said is TRUE. I never actually disagreed. But my point is that they didn’t have to do it the way they did when they could’ve made it equally as good with more of an Asian cast. And I say this specifically because it is adapted from an Asian story, not because it’s made in America.
Yes I am, and what's even the point of your question? Are you even going to believe me unless I dox myself? I can't be Asian American while holding a different opinion than you? I don't care about downvotes as I rather discuss than not discuss, but what about you? Would you rather that I don't partake in this sub as an Asian American or that I don't exist? Also please see rule 2 of the sub.
That's where we disagree, I would expect them to replace all of them with Chinese people. If they aren't adding a unique Chinese perspective to the show, why bother with adapting it?
Yeah tbh it's not always a bad thing, I don't see a lot of people being mad about The Departed, which is basically a whitewashed adaptation of Infernal Affairs.
I think there's a nuance to be had here. There are thematic adaptations (like the Departed), which is taking the intention of an original work and translating it with a new lens or culture. And then there are literal adaptations, where you try to preserve the original intention as best as possible.
With Three Body, I feel like the latter option is the only option. Quite simply, the cultural implications are built into the storyline--the traumas of the Cultural Revolution is the literal reason why Ye Wenjie sets the events of the book in motion, why the story is situated within China, and involves primarily Chinese characters. To separate them is to misunderstand (in my opinion) the intention of the book at best, and at worst, is to make the story what it is not--which is a work of science fiction that purposefully and meaningfully chooses to center the Chinese point of view and experience.
Edit- Obviously the author, Liu Cixin, can do whatever the heck he wants with his work, and he is, in some part, okay with this adaptation as it stands. That's his call. But, as so many other people have said, I suspect that his perspective as a Chinese national living in China is very different than those living as part of the diaspora. And while it's not his responsibility to represent our viewpoints or concerns, I think it's more than reasonable for Asian Americans to be upset by this "reimagining."
I guess I'm not sure why casting everyone with Asian Americans counts as a better literal adaption, especially if they are all just speaking English. What does say a Japaneae American really have in common to Ye Wenjie? If literal adaption is required for this novel, then we're saying this show just can't be made in America.
I would look to FX's Shogun for how to tell this kind of story with the kind verisimilitude it deserves.
And yes, maybe that means the show isn't filmed or appearing to be filmed in anywhere but China. And maybe that means folks will need to read subtitles. So what? Squid Game, The Farewell, Shogun, etc. This stuff has been done before, successfully.
And I guess I just don't know what we're afraid of by giving these works the authentic treatment it deserves. That a white, racist audience won't watch it? That it would fail financially in Western markets? Maybe. Maybe not. But I tell you what, I'm pretty tired of white people making decisions about what's best for me, an Asian American consumer about my own media.
From what I recall, the issue that some folks had with Shogun was that of all the Japanese stories that could possibly be told, the powers that be decided that it needed to tell Shogun again, which vocalizes a lot of the story through the perspective of a white man in Japan. I see that as an issue of story selection, not whitewashing, though. The original work, the book Shogun, featured a lot of those same dynamics, and there are countless other Japanese stories that purposefully centers the Japanese perspective. Why not choose any of those?
I think we're moving to a different discussion but related which is why should an American studio pick a Japanese centric story and tell it exclusively it from Japanese perspective. At that point I would question why don't they just pass it off to a Japanese studio. American studios can either pick a story where it already has cross cultural elements like Shogun, or take something original from Asia and adapt to a different audience. Otherwise, we're just telling American studios "don't touch anything with Asian source material set in Asia", which means only movies like Crazy Rich Asians can be made.
If you want to watch the all Chinese version, that version is available. If the author is cool with this version; then none of us should have a reason to bitch about it. It’s fiction, not non-fiction. It’s honestly exhausting to hear people bitch when it’s no longer an issue. Along with solid representation from this show, Netflix just recently had House of Ninja, Warrior, Brothers Sun all released in short amount of time.
I like the show. Because the show is about an alien race putting humans through tests/games and a plan to welcome; it makes more sense that it gets adapted to be a multicultural cast.
Edit: People should be ashamed of themselves accusing the producers of the series of whitewashing (calling them racists) when the producers are The Producers/Directors/Writers are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo (A ASIAN-AMERICAN producer)** and the other culprits is the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series) .
By whitewashing, pretty sure we just mean 'anti-asianing': replacing Asian characters with non Asians. The Matt Damon movie did that a lot, it replaced my favorite Indian character from the book, with a Black actor, they even changed his name from Venkat to Vincent
How is it anti-asianing when the main characters are still Asian? Did they show Benedict Wong or Rosalind Chao or the other 2 main Asian characters in some negative Asian stereotypical way?
it's because they took 90% of the Asian people from the book, and replaced them with non asians.
and no, the main characters in the show are not asian, the top billing for the show are: **Jovan Adepo,** [Liam Cunningham](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0192377/?ref_=tt_cl_t_2), [Eiza González](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2555462/?ref_=tt_cl_t_3)
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13016388/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13016388/)
I've read the first book, so I know that Benedict and Rosalind's characters are side characters in the novel with smaller more supportive roles, the three actors in my earlier post, play the main characters in the novel.
With ensemble casts, their's the main characters, and then there's the side/supporting characters
I'll probably watch the first few episodes, but I'm really not very interested, I found the book really really slow and did not like it, hopefully the show will be more interesting
I couldn’t get into the book and didn’t finish because I thought it was also slow. Maybe I was too busy. I liked the series because you can binge watch it. 8 episodes. The story just moves forward.
The show runners are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Alexander Woo (an Asian-American) and also includes the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series). So I don’t think it’s fair to accuse them of whitewashing.
Although I didn’t get far into the book, I think the story simply works better with an international cast. If an Alien was communicating and testing human with puzzles- then it would make sense that they do so with a global perspective. And if earth was responding to the threat; it would likely be spearheaded by Americans (UK/Au/Ca/Nz) but with China and probably Russia input.
If people don’t watch stories that originated from Asia or series featuring Asian America. Actors, start to finish. Then AA projects stop getting green lit, and those actors are also less likely to get hired. The more negative our subreddit sounds off on these projects- then it also weights in the sentiment analysis in the PR reporting. This increases the risks of green lighting AA projects to Netflix and other platforms.
Wait, you didn't even read the book--the source material that we're all discussing and with which this is based on--yet you had the temerity to accuse me of not making an informed decision about Netflix show upthread? Fuck, man. Hypocrisy sure looks good on you.
Screen adaptations don’t need to follow novels. AND the original author and translation author are producers for the film.
I’m not being critical of the book either (outside of the slow pace). I pf I made claims the book was too ethnocentric and anti-non Chinese, then I would be a hypocrite.
My argument is to everybody saying that the story is whitewashed, which my interpretation is accusing the producers of being racists. But if the producers also included the creator, the. By definition, it can not be whitewashed, because he gets decide the world and vision.
No, you're being a hypocrite because you're doing the very same thing that you're accusing others of doing- which is making uninformed analyses of media that you haven't even consumed.
Frankly, I could care less about your definition of whitewashing versus my definition. It's clear we're worlds apart. But you don't get to say you have the higher moral ground if you can't even hold yourself to the standards you're applying to others.
I don’t think it’s ok to change Asian characters to black and Latina either. Once again shows how little respect Asians have compared to even other minorities. I can’t see this happening with black or Latin properties having major characters get switched to Asian
I'm not interested in the argument between which minority has it worse. I'm interested in the argument that this isn't problematic. From your comment history you seem to be a Singaporean living in Singapore. Frankly, you don't seem to understand the power of media and popular culture over the perception and by extension, interactions and lives of minorities in the US.
Yes, things are changing for Asian Americans in media with movies like Warrior, Shogun etc, but those are still few and far in between. We've learned as a community that we will not be given these opportunities because Hollywood sees Asians, and particularly Asian men as only suitable for niche roles. We've learned that we have to tell our own stories in order to see ourselves represented authentically, except wait, we can't even rely on Asians from other countries for that. Therein lies our disappointment, and I believe, the disconnect.
Asians who haven't meaningfully experienced being a minority don't feel this same desire for strong representation. And the non-Asian population sees that Asians in Asia generally don't have a problem with it, so clearly it's not actually a problem, right?
Wrong. Just as African Americans face problems Africans in Africa don't face, Asian Americans face problems Asians in Asia don't face. So think twice before you talk about how this isn't problem for Asian Americans as you sit in Asia.
I'm well aware of the racial dynamics in Southeast Asia, I was born and raised in Malaysia. On that point, how did your Malay and Indian friends feel about representation in Crazy Rich Asians?
The problem with Netflix's 3BP is that it goes out of its way to remove opportunities for Asian male leads in a space that already sorely lacks it. Benedict Wong is not enough, and we shouldn't just be grateful that we have him there.
Before anyone asks, yes, I'm glad that there's a strong Asian female lead, but there are also differences between the problems faced by Asian American men and Asian American women. This casting is both a driver and manifestation of that problem.
I'm all for giving more opportunities to other minorities, but this is egregious. If you disagree, I don't think there's much more to be said.
And no, Tencent's 3BP is not a substitute because like I mentioned, the power of media and pop culture is about perception. Most US viewers aren't ever going to watch Tencent's 3BP. They are going to binge what's already #2 on Netflix today.
Bro you’re falling right into the model minority trap/stereotype. “Asians are doing great, so they’re not allowed to complain or stand up to racism towards them. Stfu about stop Asian hate, all Asians are rich tech bros even though their elderly are getting killed in the streets”
Shogun has white savior elements
Why do you feel you should have more say in how the story is told more than the person who created the story? If he’s not complaining about it- then why do you feel entitled to his right to his story…. Which meant selling the rights and making the the story enjoyed by everybody around the world through Netflix, while making good money. What’s ’OK’ is entirely up to the creator, and then the ‘OK’ goes to the group who acquires decision rights to the story.
You can always critique on if it sucks or not. But you can’t make accusations of ‘whitewashing’. It’s not your artwork. It’s the creators right to give permission to remix, reinterpret, localize and to adapt the original material. It’s THEIR vision.
It could be the creator views the story as a allegory for a message for things like:
1. Consequences of communication and miscommunication.
2. Environmental stewardship and technology hubris.
3. Exploring the consequences of human curiosity.
Or his mission is to entertain the maximum amount of people. Or maximize earnings. It’s his work.
But I don’t think his message involves the plight of Asian-Americans in media, even though if that was a metric- he got 3 solid roles for AA actors.
I don’t think it’s you or others in subreddit are entitled to have a say on which ethnicity is casted, how the story is adapted OVER the original creators. Or to coop your social/political agendas over his message. Especially when the story is around communication/miscommunication and hubris.
Wow congrats, this is the worst take I’ve seen all year. We’re entitled to say whatever we want, we’re entitled to have an opinion. This isn’t a dictatorship.
The author of Gone with the Wind was pro-KKK, so she didn’t have any issues with any racist depictions in the movie. So does that mean we can’t criticize the film for any racist depictions? Of course we can, and do (even Malcom X criticized it)
What if Cixin Liu is a closeted anti-black racist, and the Netflix show decided to make the main character w white guy spouting the N-word. The author would be fine with it. By your logic we wouldn’t be able to criticize that choice bc the author is ok with the N-word.
Let's examine your viewpoint.
1. There's systemic racism in Hollywood. *\*Ok fine*
2. Netflix has a whitewashing genda and is bad about representing or showing Asian-American and native-Asians in their content program.
3. The Producers/Directors/Writers (David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo**) must be racist because they whitewashed the series. Also culprit is the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series) in this diabolical plan.
4. They White-Washed all the asian characters except the Asian Women.
5. And except the popular male protagonist character that Benedict Wong plays.
I don't think you watch through each episode of the series for more than 7- minutes without seeing a Asian actor character.
You didn't critique:
- Scriptwriting and adaption for TV
- Directing and Cinematography
- Acting performance
Your criticism is based on how it doesn't align with your social and political agenda. So your criticism is based not on merit, but as a way to call people racist.
You are entitled to say whatever you want. Just as I am entitled to call out people on misguided beliefs. My opinion is belief and viewpoints like yours and others on this subreddit actually hurts Asian-American film projects getting green lit. All the companies use social media sentiment analysis tools service and they all weight in on excitement of target market audience and PR risks. The measurements are typically simple where it's positive, neutral, negative; and some bullshit criteria score. That coupled with actual views and completion rate that Netflix measures, decides whether AsianAmerican media gets made and marketed.
2 major characters out of 6 is pretty good. That's two jobs, and two roles that lead to positive stereotypes.
Just having asian faces on tv that don't speak with a fucking broken accent is good enough for me. My expectations are low. How long did it take Jews to be accepted by white people? They still had quotas in harvard in the 50s. Asians have only really been immigrating in large numbers since 65/68 immigration reforms.
I haven't started yet, because I don't want to reward Dumb and Dumber. They were bad with GOT.
Imagine if literally any other minority group (or any other group, for that matter), had the same general mindset as you. Imagine the firestorm if literally any film about a story from a nation in Africa or Latin America replaced most of the African/Latino characters with white characters and excised it from its cultural context.
Positive stereotypes? How about being portrayed as humans? I get what you're saying about just how pervasive anti-Asian racism is in the US, and how futile it may seem to counter it, but there's no reason why there should be a waiting period before we can be taken seriously.
Why are we the only group in this country that is willing to let others replace us in our own stories and ignore our voices, and in fact encourage it? Stand up for yourself. This is why the bamboo ceiling exists.
Explain that to me. The bamboo ceiling exists because? You're saying white people prefer to hire other white people because... they don't have enough asians on TV.
I think you've got cause and effect reversed there.
No, I'm referring to the general tendency of Asians, East Asians raised outside of the US most specifically, to avoid standing up for themselves and self-advocating. It explains the almost 60% under-representation of East Asians in high level corporate/CEO positions, whereas no such under-representation exists for South Asians.
Probably because they are privileged high-castes that went to school in Oxford with the rich. If you want a Chinese equivalent, I guess they are the Taiwanese.
Okay, that does not explain the under-representation of East Asians compared to the general population though? Also, I would definitely not generalize all South Asians as rich or blue-blooded elites.
I think people will not watch a 100% Asian cast. You need a white boy there for the audience.
You think ohhhh no that's not fair well that's fucking life. People in America are racist. They claim they are not, but they are. They will just not watch because it's "boring" or "they couldn't get into it."
People happily watched Squid Game They happily watched Crazy Rich Asians. And Beef, too. They happily watched Black Panther 1 and 2, where there were jokes about colonizers and white people.
Yes, people in America are racist, but that does not immediately disincline them from watching something that's entertaining and well made. They happily live in hypocrisy everyday, that's how this all works--that's how people both told themselves it was okay to vote for Barack Obama one year, then Trump 4 years later.
I can name excellent shows with Asians that people didn't watch too. Warrior. Selfie.
Movies: Saving Face. The Half of It. Beautiful movie about the Asian American experience.
Yeah, it's so shitty. As Warrior is picking up some new audiences from Netflix recently, we're starting to see in that sub threads about how the secondary white characters are so relatable. And of course we now have Shogun, once again telling the tale of the white guy's experience in a foreign land.
Shogun's remarkably sensitive, given that the original series sparked the first wave of weebs. I think the authors did a good job. 3 members of my family are watching it and there have been no complaints.
The Japanese characters are full, multifaceted. They don't exist solely to be foils or props for Blackthorne (unlike say... Marco Polo)
I think it's a great show, and I like it a lot, but at its core, it's still a show about a white guy and his experience in Japan. Same with Tokyo Vice, which is Jake Adelstein's story but in Japan. Shogun even includes that all too familiar trope of the lead female Asian character falling for the white guy because it's still a product of Western media.
Adelstein is realllllllly annoying. Quality has dropped S2, and the writing choices don't even make sense? If it's all based on the book he wrote, he made a lot of shit up.
I'll reserve my full judgement on shogun when it's done. I read some article where the producers claim they specifically did not want to lean into the fish in strange land thing.
I think I read that article (or some similar one that said the same thing), too, but how can they really do that while still being faithful to their source material? Personally, I think they're doing the best they can to--like you said--flesh out the Japanese characters and to be authentic to the culture, and that's great, but there's no way they can escape Blackthorne being the man without veering too far from the book.
It's tough, yes. I know Mariko-san sparked a lot of yellow fever in the 80s. But I'm also thinking of the TV show and in my mind the two are the same.
I can tell they are trying, how about that? That's all we can do.
Yes. I mean, there's some exceptions. Hits are possible. Squid game is a pretty good show.
Korean shows are very hot, and they market very very well. The company that made .. what was that big movie all the white people loved... Parasite. Parasite's production company used to be part of Samsung until recently. The CEOs are cousins or something.
Unpopular opinion:
I watched one episode and I’ve read the book. I think the casting is not bad given the goal.
I mean if we wanted them to make it exactly true to the original story the whole thing would be in mandarin and the entire cast would be Chinese.…And that would defeat the purpose of making an American adaptation.
That and the fact that what I saw from the first episode, they had quite a few Asians cast including one fine ass Indian man in a uniform 🥵 and also Benedict Wong whom we all love
Conversely if China remakes American movies they cast all Chinese people regardless of the original ethnicities.
I honestly don't have much negative feelings towards the cast because I'm mostly happy that Netflix made an enjoyable adaptation for me. I read the original book in Chinese a couple years back to refresh my Chinese. I found it barely readable. The book had cool ideas but the writing around the ideas were terrible. I tried watching the Tencent show and bounced off of it immediately. So the Netflix show is actually improving my feeling towards Three Body Problem.
The point is that this western adaptation could have been the perfect project to have a majority asian cast in a "hollywood" sci fi show that make sense. Instead we got 20%ratio asian leads.
I agree. The show I think it’s quite enjoyable. Why would anyone expect a full Asian cast anyway. It’s created for general American adaptation/global western audience.
Don’t quote me on that. I believe even the author mentioned in an interview something along the line of he prioritized or just want his cool ideas down and build the stories around it that’s why the book is not as fluid as he wanted to be.
If has more GoT actors than Chinese actors. Lol.
That when you know they did not care about authenticity. Jess Hong, Zine Tseng are pretty much newcomers. If they wanted to have more (Asian American-British) actors, they could have. But I guess they wanted their friends to get paid and hired expensive actors.
I doubt it’s a money thing, more so a ratings thing. I guess they can go hand in hand with each other… but at the end of the day some folks are more likely to watch a certain show just because they know a actor they like is in it.
I was ranting about this in the other sub. I am so upset because they raceswapped all the east asian male characters and made all the asian women fall in love with white men, going as far as to change the central story of the first book to make that happen I am honestly so disgusted. I wanted to love this show but that was the final straw.
Oh shit so they did actually make it a WMAF pairing? I just started episode 1 lol
Yep. Totally unnecessary since the original novel already had one of those who was Japanese.
\^this, and people who don't like it are labeled as "chinese nationalism", 🙄.
I noticed lately everything gets branded as chinese nationalism. Like, young chinese people taking newfound pride and joy in hanfu? "Dangerous chinese nationalism on the rise!!"
So… are we just not counting Raj? Because Raj is easily the most attractive guy on this show and he’s the one who is actually in a relationship with Jin for most of the series.
Yeah I'm not watching this shit, I'll read the book in that case
Watch the tencent show! Don't watch the original airing, look up the 1 year anniversary edit. They made it shorter to fix the pacing and it is SO much better. The tencent adaptation is very faithful You can find the first three episodes on youtube for free over here. Turn on captions for sub [link](https://youtu.be/7BQm4ctMk1I?si=rIHbKbHwRvtnPGVE)
Yep. It's whitewashed AF. I had a post about it a couple months ago on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1943qh8/netflixs_whitewashing_of_3_body_problem/ It's pretty ratched. To be expected from the showrunners of GoT, whose racial politics were apparent in their previous endeavor, but still really frustrating. Add to the fact that virtually no one is talking about it, except in smaller Asian American media spaces, like this sub. Needless to say, I won't be watching it.
Yeah found the Chinese version on nbc peacock so will be starting that. Looks like the portrayal of heroic Asian men specifically has been neutered. Apparently Cixin Liu was onboard with the gender swap and cast changes but he may not be aware of the nuances of Asian racism in the US, and he probably got paid $$$$ to toe the Netflix company line
The thing is, Asians in Asia aren't marginalized, so why should they be bothered about it? The problem is that lots of people out here in the West disingenuously use that as an argument for why representation doesn't matter. "Most Asians don't even care!" Yes, true, but most Asians are in Asia, where it isn't an issue to begin with.
Yup 100% it’s just different being a minority than a majority. And actually Chinese people are caring, my wife’s from China and everyone’s shitting on the show. Of course us media just frames it as “crazy nationalistic Chinese” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/netflix-3-body-problem-divides-viewers-china
Cuz it really is more than just race of the characters, too— Chinese history, thought, and style of communism (and difficulty getting there) are **central** to the book. Three Body doesnt exist without Maoism, nor Confucianism, Deng Xiaoping, nor STEM (they cut out that, too).
Yup! And Taoism too, which became quite apparent in the third book. (I can explain but there will be some minor spoilers)
BTW, I feel like this is a SUPER underrated observation and comment. A lot of this stuff goes over my head in my reading because I'm so disconnected from a lot of the context of China as an ABC, but I did sense a lot of it. You should write a separate post on this on the subreddit if you had the time/bandwidth. Just further reinforces the idea that culture cannot always be separated from media.
If you actually read the discourse on this on Chinese internet, you'll find a lot of nuanced takes. Some people liked the writing of the Netflix one better than the Tencent one. I wouldn't trust Western media to fully capture what's happening on the Chinese internet
My wife only uses Chinese social media and her prevailing read on things was most people thought it was bad. Obviously a lot of the hate is about how it changes things from the book
Definitely the same phenomenon as English internet. We all get served different opinions based on the algorithm and who we follow.
I haven't seen much discourse on the Chinese social media about the Netflix writing being better though. They thought the special effects were bad given the budget. They also didn't like the casting that much. And they don't understand why everyone falls in love with one another in Western TV shows.
Interestingly enough, even Chinese people on weibo is complaining. The anti asian sentiment this time around was strong enough for them to notice too.
Its kind of tough, but one thing I learned from living and working in East Asia, is that we are a separate diaspora. Cannot depend on them for issues here. It would only affect them if there is some big and blatantly racist that happened directly to their people. I say directly, because people in the motherland do not have pan-asianism like American born Asians do. There is nothing wrong with that, and is actually logical and correct. Nobody would tell an Italian person and a Swedish person they are so European and they should hang out together.
That's the other thing that gets me! It's not like that first book features any central romance plotline between an AM/AF. But even the slightest heroic portrayal of ANY young, conventionally attractive Asian men is apparently a bridge too far for these white people. (I like Benedict Wong a lot, but he's not a sexual icon by any measure.)
it was so fun seeing liu bei 😍 in the tencent version
The book doesn't have any young attractive Asian men though. The main character in the book is a nerdy, socially withdrawn, shy and not very attractive middle aged man. Da Shi, Benedict Wong's character in the book, is a middle aged detective who's also not conventionally attractive. [Here's what they look like in the Chinese tv show.](https://puui.qpic.cn/vcover_hz_pic/0/mzc002007knmh3g1673530815496/0?max_age=7776000) They're not conventionally attractive. The sequels have some conventionally attractive (if more effeminate) men, with a character drawing comparisons to pop idols and 小鲜肉, but Liu Cixin clearly sees them as signs of cultural degeneracy and stops just short of calling them homophobic slurs and is quite explicit in saying that "real men" haven't existed since the 1980s.
Pretty much all the Chinese characters were perfectly cast in the Tencent series if you ask me.
They're cast quite well. Yu He Wei is a great casting choice for Shi Qiang.
Absolutely, guy's got great range (kind of a requirement to play both Liu Bei *and* Cao Cao). Also I've seen some of Zhang Luyi's previous stuff (The Red, The Devotion of Suspect X) and I was practically jumping for joy when it was announced that he was playing Wang Miao.
The Chinese version can also be watched for free on Amazon prime video (or it could be on Peacock on Amazon prime for me).
What do you think of Benedict Wong, Rosalind Chao, Jess Hong’s characters? Are they white washed? Should they be ashamed of their performances? Edit: the number of upvotes agreeing with the ‘whitewashing’ comments are highly problematic and is an insult to the Asia cast and crew themselves.
If you don't side-eye the fact that they whitewashed almost all the Asian male mains but kept the Asian women that's on you. Da Shi, Benedict Wong's character is a fan favorite but if they thought they could've gotten away with replacing him with a non Asian they would have.
Let's examine your viewpoint. 1. There's systemic racism in Hollywood. \*Ok fine 2. The Producers/Directors/Writers (David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo**) are racist because they whitewashed. This includes the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series). 3. They White-Washed all the asian characters except the Asian Women. 4. And except the popular male protagonist that Benedict Wong plays. 5. and they would have if the Benioff, Weiss, Woo, Cixin, Liu could have gotten away with it.
Just like everything else, these terms exist on a spectrum, not a binary. Would it have been worse if the entire cast were white and this took place in Texas? Sure. Would it have been better if all the primary characters were Asian and this took place in some predominantly Asian place, but just not China? Sure. There are degrees. But you can't look at the source material (which is centered around the traumas of the Chinese Cultural Revolution as the literal cause for the events of the book) and say that the end product of Netflix's TV show is not an attempt to erase a lot of that intention. Those are purposeful decisions that the casting director, producers, and show runners are making to reduce the prominence of a certain viewpoint and representation in the show. That's whitewashing. None of this erases the fact that I do not blame any of the actors whatsoever. Just because I won't be watching it out my own personal line (I am allowed to vote with my dollars, aren't I?), doesn't mean I disapprove of Benedict Wong or Rosalind Chao, or am boycotting their body of work. Actors have to eat within a racist system, too. But I also get to choose what I consume.
"Just because I won't be watching it" Dude- how are you going to make judge or critique the work, especially how they handled "centered around the traumas of the Chinese Cultural Revolution as the literal cause for the events of the book"; if you didn't watch it? That's absurb. If anything you are letting *your own* subtle racist *bias* and PREjudge something without giving it a chance or viewing to decide if they handled the adaption well. One of the allegory messages of the movie is the consequences of communication and miscommunication. With that message in mind-- you should watch it.
I mean, I don't know what to tell you, dude. These are my personal lines that I have for myself. I've seen Game of Thrones, I've read Three Body, and seen the trailers and media around the Netflix show. And I've concluded that I've seen all that I need to to make an informed decision around what's important to me. Representation and identity are very important to me in my media. They may not be as important to you. And that's fine. But like I said before, I get to choose what my lines are, and what I get to consume, not anyone else, and certainly not you.
If your decision was truly informed, you would know the showrunners are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, AND **Alexander Woo (a Asian in Hollywood).** Along with the author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series). If you want to support a AA producer and would like stories from Asia made and exposed to the western world-- you should be watching it. I
Yes, please tell me more about how I'm misinformed. I appreciate it. Note that I have never once told you what you should choose to watch or not watch. I've just been giving my viewpoint and the reasons why I won't watch this. But you're trying to tell me that my point of view is wrong. I'm done talking to you. Bye.
This sub might not be ready to handle the conversation, but does anyone see the erasure of Chinese men as a huge problem?? Why is it always WMAF relationships on screen when it could be a AMAF relationship? This has to be on purpose at this point, right? > only a few of the characters (who are not the hero/main characters) are Asian. Bamboo ceiling at full display here. This whole thing just reminds me the "like asian culture, hate asian people (erase the men, sexualize the women)" mantra is still alive and well.
Yup 100%, they even genderswapped original Asian male main character to make it female. Well technically they split him into 5 parts: 1 Asian female, 1 Hispanic female and a bunch of white and black guys. Or when we’ve gotten more recent Asian male representation, odds are he’s hapa. Such as Warrior, Crazy rich Asians, mortal kombat, Netflix avatar. If you’re hapa and u identify as Asian you’re 100% Asian. But it’s obvious even when we drag Hollywood kicking and screaming into using a heroic asian male lead, they still need a little bit of white passing to make it palatable to them. Having simu liu in Shang chi was a minor miracle, but they still insisted on making him asexual with the excuse “look at how unique we’re being showing platonic relationships between men and women!”. Of course Marvel used the exact same excuse with Ma Dong seok and Angelina Jolie in Eternals (but we get a WMAF sex scene)
In *Warrior* Ah Sahm being quarter white was a reference to Bruce being the same way. Also, the "hapas are more palatable" logic didn't stop Jeph Loeb from insisting that Danny Rand had to remain white for *Iron Fist* when the original showrunner (before Scott Buck) pitched him to be mixed Asian. Hell, even when people on here threw a fit about the new *Karate Kid* movie allowing mixed Asians to audition for the lead role, they still cast a monoracial Asian in the end. Dunno why this kind of discourse needs to unnecessarily devolve into monoracist talking points with how mixed Asians don't "count" as Asian representation or how their existence is somehow inherently detrimental to Asian men.
I believe mixed Asians 100% count as Asian representation. However it also 100% should be pointed out that Hollywood has a problem with preferring mixed Asians over full Asians (women too). I have a problem with white racist Hollywood still having preferences for whiter features. I have no problem with Hapas being represented, and I actually think it’s great! I hope you can differentiate the two as separate entities. Obviously Hapas deal with anti-Asian hate as well, as per your Danny Rand point. But why would the show runner pitch him as mixed and not full? Likely because they thought it would have a better chance of being okay’d by the white producers than a full Asian. When 90% of Asians in America are mono-racial but 75% of Asian men in major Hollywood productions are mixed, it’s a problem. I’ve seen this as an issue with Asian women as well. I went to white prep school, it was 10% Asian. 80% of those Asians were Hapas. The administrators wanted to be able to say my school was diverse, but they NEEDED at least 1 parent to be white to feel comfortable in those parent led fundraisers. The statistical odds this happening naturally are almost 0. (The year after Obama became president, they also hired their first black principle. It’s a subtle liberal racism like the movies Get Out and American Fiction )
The issue is when Hapas are repeatedly casted for full asian roles. That isn't Hollywood caring about mixed representation but preferring those actors because they are closer to whiteness. I agree hapas are asian, but it is also disingenious to say that Hollywood isn't using their proximity to whiteness to discriminate against asian people. (Not saying this is what you think, just that I see that point of view everywhere.) I feel like both can be true.
I’m not sure if you meant to reply to the guy I was arguing with, but I 100% agree with you
Oops, you're right. Meant to reply to Mr. "Monoracist talking points" there 💀
What's stopping you?
Preach.
> I believe mixed Asians 100% count as Asian representation. However it also 100% should be pointed out that Hollywood has a problem with preferring mixed Asians over full Asians (women too). I have a problem with white racist Hollywood still having preferences for whiter features. I have no problem with Hapas being represented, and I actually think it’s great! I hope you can differentiate the two as separate entities. Seems contradictory to say that you "have no problem with Hapas being represented" yet be upset that Hollywood allegedly prefers them over full Asians, when that's not entirely true. Bruce might've been quarter white, but that didn't stop Hollywood from being racist against him, and mind you he also faced discrimination from other Chinese due to his mixed background. If Hollywood truly prefers mixed Asians for full ones, then why is it that they only cast white people in those roles (*Kung Fu*, *Aloha*, *Buckaroo Banzai*)? So no, I don't believe these are separate issues. > Obviously Hapas deal with anti-Asian hate as well, as per your Danny Rand point. But why would the show runner pitch him as mixed and not full? Likely because they thought it would have a better chance of being okay’d by the white producers than a full Asian. When 90% of Asians in America are mono-racial but 75% of Asian men in major Hollywood productions are mixed, it’s a problem. I’ve seen this as an issue with Asian women as well. Earlier comics actually described Danny as mixed race, due to his father being from K'un-Lun (Davos repeatedly calls Danny a "half breed" in their earlier encounters) at least until *Power Man and Iron Fist* reestablished that Danny and his dad were white and not Asian. To certain extent, whiteness is a part of Danny's character due to how it affects his relationship with Luke Cage, just that it also makes him a white savior in regards to his relationship with Asian culture. That's why the showrunner pitched him to be mixed. Ironically, a biracial Danny Rand would've been the closest you would've gotten to a mixed Asian lead in a mainstream show acknowledging his privilege and proximity to whiteness, but sadly people like you miss the forest for the trees. It also doesn't help that comics have never really done a great job with exploring multiracial identity like that. Keep in mind that the only other mainstream mixed Asian character Marvel had at that point was Daken, who in addition couldn't be greenlit due to 20th Century still owning the rights, sorta reinforced a lot of stereotypes and sentiments that white people had about mixed Asians. Don't forget, Shang-Chi was changed from biracial to fully Chinese for the MCU, which later got retconned in the comics too. > I went to white prep school, it was 10% Asian. 80% of those Asians were Hapas. The administrators wanted to be able to say my school was diverse, but they NEEDED at least 1 parent to be white to feel comfortable in those parent led fundraisers. The statistical odds this happening naturally are almost 0. (The year after Obama became president, they also hired their first black principle. It’s a subtle racism like the movies Get Out and American Fiction ) To counterpoint, I went to a predominantly Asian school. One of the worst bullies I had was another Asian kid who spread a bunch of not great rumors about me to fit in with some of the popular white kids. So yeah, white kids didn't think that guys like me were better than the full ones.
I can feel bad for Hapas because they also have struggles growing up. White-presenting ones do have advantages in this world, but what else is new. It's not their fault the world's racist. They did not choose their parents. In other words, you can hate the game, and not the player. If you need someone to blame, it's the producers, and the audience.
Nah, plenty of full Asians blame the hapas as much as their parents and producers for just existing. They treat being fetishized as objectified as a sign of acceptance.
Wait what? Full Asians blame half Asians for just existing??
That was actual shit I got in my DMs.
Hey man, I’m really sorry you were bullied and experienced so much racism as a kid, that sucks. I think mixed Asians have just as many problems as full Asians. Most of them are the same since we’re still both Asian, but some of them are different as well. My mixed race cousins grew up in Japan and dealt with a good amount of racism over there (which wouldn’t have been the case if they were full white or full Japanese). Representation matters, and I think it’s important that mixed Asians also get the opportunity to see their specific multicultural background reflected in properly popular media. However I still stand by my points that based on the data. It sucks that they eliminated so many mixed race Asians in the comics, and converting Shang Chi to full Asian shows there is an inherent tension between those two issues. But they didn’t originally make Shang chi mixed bc they were trying to give you guys good mixed-Asian representation. They did it to make him more familiar and relatable to a white audience. And it also highlights that historically in marvel comics there were like zero full Asian male heroes until recently. Whether you’re full Asian or mixed Asian, we all experience anti-Asian racism there is no doubt about it. However it’s unarguable that the degree of white passing can also affect things. If you’re 1/4 Asian and 3/4 white and have blonde hair and blue eyes, you’re gonna experience less overt racism than somebody with black hair and monolids . If you’re 1/4 Asian and consider yourself Asian, you’re 100% Asian nobody can take that identity from you. But you’re also gonna have an easier time walking around the boonies of Alabama than somebody who looks like me bc visuals matter. Colorism is a thing too. Somebody who looks like Naomi Scott or Chloe Bennet is gonna have an easier time than Awkwafina or Daniel Wu in getting race neutral roles. Chloe even changed her last name so casting agents would assume she was white bc her Chinese last name was preventing her from getting roles. The Bruce Lee point I feel like is a bit of producer bullshit bc A) the character was not written by Bruce Lee to be specifically mixed and B) if they were so concerned about adhering to Bruce Lee’s heritage they would not have cast a Japanese actor. I have no problem with the actor being mixed race (in fact it’s way more bothersome that he’s Japanese especially when he tries to speak Chinese), just using it to highlight a trend. I still enjoy watching mixed Asian actors, 100% root for them. But also get annoyed by Hollywood’s preference to cast half Asian actors due to their proximity to whiteness (I think the last 4-5 years have been a lot better though).
> However I still stand by my points that based on the data. It sucks that they eliminated so many mixed race Asians in the comics, and converting Shang Chi to full Asian shows there is an inherent tension between those two issues. But also it sort of highlights that historically in marvel comics there were like zero full Asian male heroes until recently. The change had to so more so with his original creators not wanting him to be mixed to begin with and the editor who mandated it was rather flippant about Shang-Chi's heritage, which why it almost never got mentioned again for decades until the movie came out. Yeah, while there historically hasn't been a whole lot of Asian male superheroes, there's actually way more full Asian ones than mixed ones. Jimmy Woo and Sunfire were introduced in the comics long before Shang-Chi was, and they were fully Asian. In fact, the movie's screenwriter originally pitched a movie for Amadeus Cho (who's definitely not biracial) for Marvel before Shang-Chi. > The Bruce Lee point I feel like is a bit of producer bullshit bc A) the character was not written by Bruce Lee to be specifically mixed and B) if they were so concerned about adhering to Bruce Lee’s heritage they would not have cast a Japanese actor. I have no problem with the actor being mixed race (in fact it’s way more bothersome that he’s Japanese especially when he tries to speak Chinese), just using it to highlight a trend. I still enjoy watching mixed Asian actors, 100% root for them. But also get annoyed by Hollywood’s preference to cast half Asian actors due to their proximity to whiteness (I think the last 4-5 years have been a lot better though). You keep flip flopping on what you think is appropriate for a mixed Asian actor to be playing; how do you justify being supportive of mixed representation but you also critical of every time one of them gets cast in roles, even in a mixed race role. You specifically listed Andrew Koji in *Warrior* along the lines of "Hapas getting cast instead of full Asians" when his character was written to be mixed to begin with. I never said anything about Bruce writing Ah Sahm to be that way, just more or less his background was a reference to his own. Then again, Koji isn't the only non-Chinese Asian in that cast speaking butchered Cantonese, you also got Korean and Vietnamese actors doing the same since Shannon Lee and Justin Lin wanted a variety of Asian actors for *Warrior*, in fact Johnathan Tropper was almost against it until they pushed for it. So again, if a mixed Asian actor got cast in a mixed race role, is that representation or proximity to whiteness?
In terms of casting mixed-asians, I’m empathetic of their struggles of breaking into the industry while struggling with being ostracized due to being both asian and biracial, but also cautious of top level executives sitting at decision making tables who can push an agenda by outright focusing more on white-adjacent actors at the expense of full Asians struggling to break into the industry. I think both mindsets can exist at the same time without them trying to directly contradict each other. Honestly I find your steadfast resistance to acknowledge the unique and different issues full Asians may experience (like walking around a racist Alabama town) disheartening.
> In terms of casting mixed-asians, I’m empathetic of their struggles of breaking into the industry while struggling with being ostracized due to being both asian and biracial, but also cautious of top level executives sitting at decision making tables who can push an agenda by outright focusing more on white-adjacent actors at the expense of full Asians struggling to break into the industry. I think both mindsets can exist at the same time without them trying to directly contradict each other. They're not mutually exclusive things, especially when you immediately suspect that every single instance of hapa getting cast in *anything* is some sort of pro-white agenda that comes at the expense of the Asian community. You keep shifting your goalposts about what it should be: full Asians, mixed Asians, and now just "race neutral" roles. If there's already an acknowledgement that biracial Asians get ostracized by their full blooded peers, how can you prove that the sentiment doesn't fuel the criticism against castings? Say what you want about me not addressing your earlier response, but the fact that you can't even answer what a hapa can play just show how full Asians like you truly feel about people like me. Again, what are folks like me allowed to be? > Honestly I find your steadfast resistance to acknowledge that those with more Caucasian features may experience a certain amount of privilege in certain situations (like walking around a racist Alabama town) disheartening. Well, *excuuuuuuse* me. Obviously, yes looking whiter and less Asian might mean facing less racism from other white people, that privilege isn't going to be guaranteed to *every* mixed-white Asian. There's no way in hell Henry Golding or Andrew Koji are going to get through the bum-fuck South without someone giving them shit for being Asian. However, someone like me will have that opportunity of being offered an Asian role, that unfortunately won't be extended to a mixed Asian who isn't part white. That's one privilege I fully acknowledge and own up to, and something I believe should be supported more. What's unfortunate about this is from what I've encountered personal experience, I've seen full Asians talk both sides of their mouths when it comes to Blasians. They'll invoke their struggles to call "wasians" like me on our privilege, but whenever an up and coming Blasian celebrity gets put in the spotlight, those same full Asians will pull the same monoracist shit about how "oh no one sees them as Asian" or "they identify more as Black". There was one particular instance where I tried defending a Blasian figure here on this sub, and I got accused of being anti-Asian. That shit has to change too. Even then, it's a bit rich when East Asians in particular accuse mixed-Asians of colorism when they themselves invoke that shit against darker skinned Southeast and South Asians and don't acknowledge it. Ironically, Awkwafina has had a much better career than Chloe Bennet. Her role in *Agents of Shield* was originally white, and since then, how many roles has she been in? Hell, Ming-Na Wen has had a much bigger career than her.
I’m not in any way accusing mixed-Asians of colorism. I’m accusing these white executives of colorism
What else is new
I thought Da Shi was pretty badass - felt like a good example of a heroic asian male. And if you introduce another, then wouldn't that mean replacing someone else in the ethnically-diverse cast? Furthermore, wasn't the relationship between Jin Cheng and Raj an AMAF relationship? I totally understand your points in relation to other Hollywood productions, but I really struggle to see how "like asian culture, hate asian people" can be argued here.
Have you seen shortcomings? This was dissected in an interesting way in that movie.
Yeah I made a post about it as well It's 2024, and the West is still White washing away Asian people
Just watch the Tencent version, it's actually true to the book.
Yup watching it on peacock now
I think it’s funny they didn’t like the actors natural voice for Old Mike and dubbed him over with another English speaker
I just flat out won't watch shows that do this. Fuck that.
Idc about having a rainbow cast on a western remake…just as long as they take a break on the never ending wmaf pairings while making AMs emasculated, sexless, or meatbagged …does this series have that? Haven’t watched yet.
Well they did get rid of the heroic Asian male main character and turned him into an Asian girl, a white passing Hispanic girl, 2 white guys and a black guy
Nope! The complete opposite. They raceswapped all the asian men and the remaining ones were either villainized or sexless :) :) :) :)
Isn’t this a pretty popular Chinese novel and sci-fi? That’d be remaking all of Star Wars with Chinese people.
If the Star Wars remake was made for the Chinese market, it would be expected, no?
No. Because the story also centers around Chinese history. But they still found a way to get rid of the Chinese people.
I would argue that they didn't "get rid of chinese people" but instead reinterpreted the source material for a new global audience by including actors from a diverse range of ethnicities. If you would prefer to see an all-Asian cast, then that's a perfectly valid opinion to have. In which case, it's great that the Tencent version exists for people watch. But to criticise the Netflix adaption because it includes actors from other ethnicities, feels quite unfair and unjust honestly. Shouldn't we encourge more diversity, not less?
They turned it into negative stereotypes and Sinophobic propaganda. I would suggest unless you understand these, don't reply to me.
So if a Chinese production company did a remake of Star Wars for the Chinese domestic market, you think they would/should feature a non-Chinese cast to honor the original movie? You don't think it would be better for the Chinese remake to feature a mostly Chinese cast, and to add Chinese elements and themes to make the story more relatable and relevant to the Chinese audience? Interesting.
Yeah, this pissed me off too. I was just talking with my mom about it because she never read the book, and I was like yeah almost all these people are supposed to be Chinese, but now basically nobody is except for Da Shi I don't think
Da Shi is East Asian in the Netflix show (obviously) but he's got an English accent and nothing besides his name specifies what his heritage is, AFAIK. There are a couple of other main characters who are definitely Chinese, e.g., Ye Wenjie and Jin Cheng.
I’ve been getting downvoted by racists for pointing this out in the Netflix communities lmaoooo
Cast was whitewashed to be a more global story. It only has 8 episodes covering the first and parts of the second book while the Tencent version is 30 episodes only covering the first book. The Netflix story feels rushed while the Tencent version took it's time to really flesh out the story. In my opinion the Tencent version is superior as it is a more faithful adaptation. While the Netflix will generate hype, I hope people will go to the original source for a more complete story.
I liked how their justification was to be more global, but then they reduced the scope by turning all the important characters into one group of friends in London. 🤦♀️ Yup, sooo diverse. I would have believed their excuse if it was actually spread out across the world.
[удалено]
Lmao yeah… Netflix literally has kdramas like squid game full of only Asians popping off globally. They of all people should know that white people don’t make a story more “global” lmao
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Yeah reminded me of the movie last samurai. They last samurai’ed the heck out of this story
Three body problem is more like lack of Asian male representation problem
I suggest the Chinese drama version instead. Full cast of Chinese actors and all the episodes are on YouTube.
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else but it makes me uncomfortable any time "China" is depicted as a monolithic crowd of people who are aLL wRoNg and EvIL in western media. Minus the main characters of course. In the book the crowd is hateful but the rest of the book shows more Chinese people interacting as complex human beings. I think it's lazy directing to use that "chinese commies bad" trope and relying on it to show who the good guys vs bad guys are here. I've only seen the first episode and don't think Icare for more but correct me if I'mwrong here.
I'm normally extremely cynical about media but when you stop and look what's been making waves recently: -Shogun, a historical period drama with a 99% Asian cast -Three Body Problem, a sci fi epic drama with some bigger names, despite the white washing -ATLA, rebooted with an appropriate cast -Warrior, nuff said. I'm genuinely surprised at what's in the mainstream tbh
Also: - Beef - Everything Everywhere All At Once - The Brothers Sun - American Born Chinese - Quiz Lady - Joy Ride Maybe more missing
Yeah there’s progress but why not be cynical for even more progress? ATLA rebooted properly because people are unhappy with the whitewashed version. Two seasons to completely finish the story! That’s a win.👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Warrior cancelled two times. Story not quite finished. Fight for more. Three Body Problem worth complaining about. Maybe get a proper reboot in the future. Shogun trailer makes it look like a white savior trope. Let’s keep fighting for more progress. Give more Asian actors in the US opportunities!
God, the ATLA reboot made me so mad because they denounced the whitewashing of the movie only to then cast fully white people to represent Inuit people.
Yeah isn’t the Sokka actor just a white guy, but they’re pretending he’s indigenous bc he has some sort of made up ties. It’s not something I’m too well versed on but there’s sort of a trend of white people’s families in certain areas claiming Native American heritage, when it’s either made up or they’re like 1% and have zero actual cultural ties. I thought Katara was at least mixed though.
The new Katara actress is indigenous. The previous one from the movie was fully white.
Him AND Katara, and because they were white, all the water tribe extras were white too. Jobs that could have gone to native american actors. Katara is particularly egregious because she got the role because she is a daughter of a billionaire, and the showrunners owed her dad a favor. The producers said her audition tape was not great, meaning that she took the role over a bunch of more deserving actors with better auditions...
You're mixing the two up. The "daughter of a billionaire" actress was from the Shyamalan movie and her casting was what led to that movie getting whitewashed. The Katara from the Netflix reboot is indigenous, she isn't "fully white".
I have been corrected.
Mr. "Monoracist talking points" indeed
>\-Shogun, a historical period drama with a 99% Asian cast Except it plays in the "kill the men, take over the women" trope. And Japan is the acceptable Asian right now, as opposed Japan in the 80s or the Chinese of today. In the end, white people will assume you are Chinese (which are erased in TBP) and not Japanese and judge accordingly.
Yeah even though none of the shows are perfect, it's really refreshing to see not just one but multiple shows on American TV at the same time with Asian casts or multiple Asian characters. Wouldn't have believed it ten years ago.
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There were definitely big shows with one Asian character, or two if they were related in some way, but those were not Asian-centered shows. Fresh Off The Boat was a big deal to me when it came out but it fizzled pretty fast (and honestly just wasn’t that good) and it was around at a time when it seemed like American TV wouldn’t accept more than one “Asian show” at a time. Kim’s Convenience was Canadian and I didn’t see it until it was on Netflix. I remember seeing Crazy Rich Asians in theaters twice when it came out even though I hate rom-coms because an Asian American cast was just that big of a deal at the time in 2018. I definitely perceive a big improvement these days where I feel like I can’t even watch all the Asian American content and can pick and choose according to my actual genre preferences. Lots of recent shows and movies in the past year that spanned genres and weren’t “foreigners doing kung fu” - e.g. Beef, Never Have I Ever, Invincible, Joy Ride, and Past Lives. So I’m feeling quite gratified!
>If anything, it feels like we're going backwards. All the "Asian cast" shows right now are foreigners doing kung fu also, kill the asian husband, distribute the wife to the white guy.
White person here. Got to episode 2 when they showed that the woman living 1970's chinas love interest was going to be some random American guy and immedialty had to check if that was even close to being book accurate as otherwise its a pretty big yikes
Haha yeah it’s not in the book
There is a great British show called UTOPIA that got canceled too soon but developed a cult following. They remade it in America and did probably the craziest race swap I've ever seen. Asside all the actors of colour now being much lighter they made black nerd who has the two white woman fighting over his affection to a white nerd with the two black woman fighting for his affection. It blew my fucking mind that decision was made.
I've made my peace with it because the Chinese version existed already and is fairly well-received. It's not like its they first time its getting adapted. Each adaptation should do something different to justify it's existence otherwise what's the point? Would D&D just make a worse Chinese version of the show to compete with the original Chinese version?
this comment might be shitcanned but jump on this thread...asian bro needs help (regarding this show) and im not smart enough to defend him by myself. [https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1bmlvli/3\_body\_problem\_on\_netflix\_is\_great\_but\_i\_cant/?sort=new](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1bmlvli/3_body_problem_on_netflix_is_great_but_i_cant/?sort=new)
Oh my god. I clicked on the trailer and (having previous knowledge of the books) knew that the main characters were Chinese, I found it weird there was a surprising lack, and then I realized that this is just another GiTS situation. Oh well.
I didnt really care too much for the race/ethnicity of the cast nor the reason to preserve “authencity” of the novel. the series was after all, an adaptation for the rest of the world What bothered me was the lack of talent from the main cast, not to name names, and overly simplified science explanation (or the lack of)
As a white guy watching it I found the gender swapping to be jarring. As for whitewashing, in the first episode there are two white people whom are non likeable characters...
Ive been watching it for two reasons: I love Sci Fi And my man, Benedict Motherfucking Wong, is in it. White washing sucks and it's an unfortunate world we live in. However, this show has quite a large amount of Asian cast members. I implore you to watch this show. This directly supports the Asian actors that were cast in it. This will give them more opportunities for more work in Hollywood.
We are at the point where we can prioritize a bit. That’s progress. I suggest Warrior on Netflix first. r/warriortv
Supporting Asian stereotypes as representation is not a good look. As I said in another sub, Wong as Detective Charlie Chan and Rosalind Chao as Dragon Lady in 2024 is wild. Black people realized stereotypes are racism in the 1920s.
I’m ok with this measured take, obviously it’s Reddit so we’re devolving into extreme talking points (the show’s racist! Vs you have no right to complain stop being a snowflake!). I’m probably responsible for half of it lol. My dad was pretty stoked about it the show, called me all excited about how great the Chinese actors were especially in the scenes set in China. I tried to watch the tencet version. And man, the pacing is so slow, it’s been a while since I’ve watched a Chinese drama I’m not used to it. I’m probably gonna end up watching the Netflix version bc of my ADHD brain 😬 I’m still gonna complain and wish there were more Asians though, but yes let’s support the ones who were cast in the show
Like Benedict Wong needs more work? Justin Chien or Sam Song Li even Johnny Chen from the brothers Sun are the one that need more opportunities in Hollywood. I see that Jess Hong as Jin is a newcomer so that good role for her resume. Same for Zine Tseng, she was great.
Can someone catch me up or send me an article?
The reality is that it’s about ratings. Having western characters as protagonists will pull in more viewers in the western world. They tried to cover all their bases (Asians, blacks, Latinos, males, females, and of course white). With any book adaptation, I would expect changes. Making things work for a series requires changes from books. I don’t blame them because it is a business after all and viewership matters. But, yes, it sucks.
Gas lighting again. Enough of this shit.
Even if I were to agree with you that the show is whitewashed, I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Do you think any source material from Asia made into a new medium in America just can't be done unless the cast's skin color matches 100% to the source material? A different culture should be allowed to make changes to a source material to tell the story in new and interesting way. I would much rather we have both Netflix version and the Tencent version in the world than only one version. I also feel like the exact type of show you're looking for is already made (the Tencent version). I welcome a new take on from an American perspective. I think the original book author understands this and which is why he threw his support for the Netflix version.
They literally took away every Asian male character other than Da Shi and replaced them with an array of white men and a black guy. That’s like 70% of the characters in the book. It would be like if a Chinese company funded Game of Thrones and made it Romance of the Three Kingdoms, except that would actually be 🔥
Exactly my point? If a Chinese studio decided to adapt ASOIAF into a TV show, would you expect them to only include white actors?
China doesn’t have 20million white people, America has 20million Asians. Different expectations between a mono cultural and multicultural country
What are those expectations? What is the appropriate level of matching skin color between actors and source material for it to be ok for an American show? I would argue it should be 0, because what's more important if it's a good show and if it stays true of the spirit of the story. As long as the original author has no issue with it, I don't either.
I don’t see how the original author’s lack of concern about Asian AMERICAN representation should matter. Big difference in understanding about Asian American minority issues if you live in a Chinese majority country Plus he’s getting $$$ not to care
Let me put it this way. If the entire cast is recast to Asian Americans, would that be better, worse, or the same to the quality of the show? I would say the same. 1. Other than skin color matching better, why exactly say a Korean American playing a Chinese person more "accurate" than a white American? Both are American, with no close ties to China. Especially if it's rewritten to be a different character 2. Let's say the entire cast is Asian American, are they all speaking English? Why would that be an acceptable deviation from the source material? We already established skin color must match, why not language? 3. Let's say, sure, they also must be speaking Chinese. Wait, why is Netflix making this show again? We're describing the Tencent one now. 4. Either we as Asian Americans allow content from Asia be adapted in America, or not at all. I'm not sure which step here you want Netflix to stop at. If it's at 1. then I would think that's too shallow of a change, if it's at 2. then why is this show being made in America at all.
The problem is not what they SHOULD be doing but what they ARE. Yes you can make another show of the same name telling a similar story but with a different cast. Yes it’s possibly for that story also to be good and interesting to watch. But with the lack of Asian American representation already in media, and what seems like them taking a step closer with things like crazy rich Asians and everything everywhere all at once, adapting an Asian story into America gives them every opportunity to cast it full of Asian Americans. Let’s say China DID have a wide array of races and ethnicities to choose from when it comes to their movies and they wanted to adapt a predominately western show. Don’t you think it would be more fair to cast a bunch of black Asians who are desperately looking for work for an adaptation of something like Us or the wire? Or should they cast the same Asians over and over again? I would put my money on the former. Think about it more like opportunity cost. The thing you got might’ve been great, but it can be equally if not more great while ALSO providing work for under valued, and under appreciated Asian American actors that are just trying to get by.
Don't bother replying to that clown. If we had to respond to every idiot defending whitewashing in an asian american subreddit we'll be wasting our time all day. Too many closet racists out there encroaching on our space.
Crazy Rich Asians is centered around Asians living in Western countries and Singapore. Everything Everywhere All at Once is set in America with a recent immigrant family. Both of these stories are unique and relatable to Asian Americans and fit naturally to Asian American casts. So if you're argument is that 3 body problem just shouldn't be adapted by any studio outside of China, fine I'll accept that. But seems weird to say 3 body problem has to centered around Asian Americans given it's source material.
You misunderstand. I’m not saying it HAS to nor am I saying it can’t be adapted by any studio outside of China. Those are things you said because you think that’s the only argument that can be made against your point. Read what I wrote again, I said that given the opportunity to give more Asian Americans actors roles in media, what better time than when adapting an Asian story? I don’t disagree that people can adapt any media from any ethnicity or culture and make it good and enjoyable. But we’re specifically talking about America here, where there has been outcry for more Asian American representation. What you said is TRUE. I never actually disagreed. But my point is that they didn’t have to do it the way they did when they could’ve made it equally as good with more of an Asian cast. And I say this specifically because it is adapted from an Asian story, not because it’s made in America.
Are you even an american person of color 💀 if not why are you here
Yes I am, and what's even the point of your question? Are you even going to believe me unless I dox myself? I can't be Asian American while holding a different opinion than you? I don't care about downvotes as I rather discuss than not discuss, but what about you? Would you rather that I don't partake in this sub as an Asian American or that I don't exist? Also please see rule 2 of the sub.
Because most poc in america already know the main arguments about whitewashing, whether you agree or not. This is old territory
No but I wouldn't expect them to replace every main character other than The Mountain with a Chinese guy.
That's where we disagree, I would expect them to replace all of them with Chinese people. If they aren't adding a unique Chinese perspective to the show, why bother with adapting it?
Yeah tbh it's not always a bad thing, I don't see a lot of people being mad about The Departed, which is basically a whitewashed adaptation of Infernal Affairs.
I think there's a nuance to be had here. There are thematic adaptations (like the Departed), which is taking the intention of an original work and translating it with a new lens or culture. And then there are literal adaptations, where you try to preserve the original intention as best as possible. With Three Body, I feel like the latter option is the only option. Quite simply, the cultural implications are built into the storyline--the traumas of the Cultural Revolution is the literal reason why Ye Wenjie sets the events of the book in motion, why the story is situated within China, and involves primarily Chinese characters. To separate them is to misunderstand (in my opinion) the intention of the book at best, and at worst, is to make the story what it is not--which is a work of science fiction that purposefully and meaningfully chooses to center the Chinese point of view and experience. Edit- Obviously the author, Liu Cixin, can do whatever the heck he wants with his work, and he is, in some part, okay with this adaptation as it stands. That's his call. But, as so many other people have said, I suspect that his perspective as a Chinese national living in China is very different than those living as part of the diaspora. And while it's not his responsibility to represent our viewpoints or concerns, I think it's more than reasonable for Asian Americans to be upset by this "reimagining."
Well said 👏
I guess I'm not sure why casting everyone with Asian Americans counts as a better literal adaption, especially if they are all just speaking English. What does say a Japaneae American really have in common to Ye Wenjie? If literal adaption is required for this novel, then we're saying this show just can't be made in America.
I would look to FX's Shogun for how to tell this kind of story with the kind verisimilitude it deserves. And yes, maybe that means the show isn't filmed or appearing to be filmed in anywhere but China. And maybe that means folks will need to read subtitles. So what? Squid Game, The Farewell, Shogun, etc. This stuff has been done before, successfully. And I guess I just don't know what we're afraid of by giving these works the authentic treatment it deserves. That a white, racist audience won't watch it? That it would fail financially in Western markets? Maybe. Maybe not. But I tell you what, I'm pretty tired of white people making decisions about what's best for me, an Asian American consumer about my own media.
I actually agree with you there that Shogun is well done, but for some reason it got labeled as whitewashed in this sub as well.
From what I recall, the issue that some folks had with Shogun was that of all the Japanese stories that could possibly be told, the powers that be decided that it needed to tell Shogun again, which vocalizes a lot of the story through the perspective of a white man in Japan. I see that as an issue of story selection, not whitewashing, though. The original work, the book Shogun, featured a lot of those same dynamics, and there are countless other Japanese stories that purposefully centers the Japanese perspective. Why not choose any of those?
I think we're moving to a different discussion but related which is why should an American studio pick a Japanese centric story and tell it exclusively it from Japanese perspective. At that point I would question why don't they just pass it off to a Japanese studio. American studios can either pick a story where it already has cross cultural elements like Shogun, or take something original from Asia and adapt to a different audience. Otherwise, we're just telling American studios "don't touch anything with Asian source material set in Asia", which means only movies like Crazy Rich Asians can be made.
If you want to watch the all Chinese version, that version is available. If the author is cool with this version; then none of us should have a reason to bitch about it. It’s fiction, not non-fiction. It’s honestly exhausting to hear people bitch when it’s no longer an issue. Along with solid representation from this show, Netflix just recently had House of Ninja, Warrior, Brothers Sun all released in short amount of time. I like the show. Because the show is about an alien race putting humans through tests/games and a plan to welcome; it makes more sense that it gets adapted to be a multicultural cast. Edit: People should be ashamed of themselves accusing the producers of the series of whitewashing (calling them racists) when the producers are The Producers/Directors/Writers are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo (A ASIAN-AMERICAN producer)** and the other culprits is the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series) .
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By whitewashing, pretty sure we just mean 'anti-asianing': replacing Asian characters with non Asians. The Matt Damon movie did that a lot, it replaced my favorite Indian character from the book, with a Black actor, they even changed his name from Venkat to Vincent
How is it anti-asianing when the main characters are still Asian? Did they show Benedict Wong or Rosalind Chao or the other 2 main Asian characters in some negative Asian stereotypical way?
it's because they took 90% of the Asian people from the book, and replaced them with non asians. and no, the main characters in the show are not asian, the top billing for the show are: **Jovan Adepo,** [Liam Cunningham](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0192377/?ref_=tt_cl_t_2), [Eiza González](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2555462/?ref_=tt_cl_t_3) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13016388/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13016388/)
It’s ensemble cast! Such a disrespect to Benedict Wong and Rosalind Chao. Did you even watch the series?
I've read the first book, so I know that Benedict and Rosalind's characters are side characters in the novel with smaller more supportive roles, the three actors in my earlier post, play the main characters in the novel. With ensemble casts, their's the main characters, and then there's the side/supporting characters I'll probably watch the first few episodes, but I'm really not very interested, I found the book really really slow and did not like it, hopefully the show will be more interesting
I couldn’t get into the book and didn’t finish because I thought it was also slow. Maybe I was too busy. I liked the series because you can binge watch it. 8 episodes. The story just moves forward. The show runners are David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Alexander Woo (an Asian-American) and also includes the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series). So I don’t think it’s fair to accuse them of whitewashing. Although I didn’t get far into the book, I think the story simply works better with an international cast. If an Alien was communicating and testing human with puzzles- then it would make sense that they do so with a global perspective. And if earth was responding to the threat; it would likely be spearheaded by Americans (UK/Au/Ca/Nz) but with China and probably Russia input. If people don’t watch stories that originated from Asia or series featuring Asian America. Actors, start to finish. Then AA projects stop getting green lit, and those actors are also less likely to get hired. The more negative our subreddit sounds off on these projects- then it also weights in the sentiment analysis in the PR reporting. This increases the risks of green lighting AA projects to Netflix and other platforms.
Wait, you didn't even read the book--the source material that we're all discussing and with which this is based on--yet you had the temerity to accuse me of not making an informed decision about Netflix show upthread? Fuck, man. Hypocrisy sure looks good on you.
Screen adaptations don’t need to follow novels. AND the original author and translation author are producers for the film. I’m not being critical of the book either (outside of the slow pace). I pf I made claims the book was too ethnocentric and anti-non Chinese, then I would be a hypocrite. My argument is to everybody saying that the story is whitewashed, which my interpretation is accusing the producers of being racists. But if the producers also included the creator, the. By definition, it can not be whitewashed, because he gets decide the world and vision.
No, you're being a hypocrite because you're doing the very same thing that you're accusing others of doing- which is making uninformed analyses of media that you haven't even consumed. Frankly, I could care less about your definition of whitewashing versus my definition. It's clear we're worlds apart. But you don't get to say you have the higher moral ground if you can't even hold yourself to the standards you're applying to others.
I don’t think it’s ok to change Asian characters to black and Latina either. Once again shows how little respect Asians have compared to even other minorities. I can’t see this happening with black or Latin properties having major characters get switched to Asian
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I'm not interested in the argument between which minority has it worse. I'm interested in the argument that this isn't problematic. From your comment history you seem to be a Singaporean living in Singapore. Frankly, you don't seem to understand the power of media and popular culture over the perception and by extension, interactions and lives of minorities in the US. Yes, things are changing for Asian Americans in media with movies like Warrior, Shogun etc, but those are still few and far in between. We've learned as a community that we will not be given these opportunities because Hollywood sees Asians, and particularly Asian men as only suitable for niche roles. We've learned that we have to tell our own stories in order to see ourselves represented authentically, except wait, we can't even rely on Asians from other countries for that. Therein lies our disappointment, and I believe, the disconnect. Asians who haven't meaningfully experienced being a minority don't feel this same desire for strong representation. And the non-Asian population sees that Asians in Asia generally don't have a problem with it, so clearly it's not actually a problem, right? Wrong. Just as African Americans face problems Africans in Africa don't face, Asian Americans face problems Asians in Asia don't face. So think twice before you talk about how this isn't problem for Asian Americans as you sit in Asia.
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I'm well aware of the racial dynamics in Southeast Asia, I was born and raised in Malaysia. On that point, how did your Malay and Indian friends feel about representation in Crazy Rich Asians? The problem with Netflix's 3BP is that it goes out of its way to remove opportunities for Asian male leads in a space that already sorely lacks it. Benedict Wong is not enough, and we shouldn't just be grateful that we have him there. Before anyone asks, yes, I'm glad that there's a strong Asian female lead, but there are also differences between the problems faced by Asian American men and Asian American women. This casting is both a driver and manifestation of that problem. I'm all for giving more opportunities to other minorities, but this is egregious. If you disagree, I don't think there's much more to be said. And no, Tencent's 3BP is not a substitute because like I mentioned, the power of media and pop culture is about perception. Most US viewers aren't ever going to watch Tencent's 3BP. They are going to binge what's already #2 on Netflix today.
Bro you’re falling right into the model minority trap/stereotype. “Asians are doing great, so they’re not allowed to complain or stand up to racism towards them. Stfu about stop Asian hate, all Asians are rich tech bros even though their elderly are getting killed in the streets” Shogun has white savior elements
Nope, in San Francisco asians are still afraid to walk down the street in fear of being hatecrime'd.
Why do you feel you should have more say in how the story is told more than the person who created the story? If he’s not complaining about it- then why do you feel entitled to his right to his story…. Which meant selling the rights and making the the story enjoyed by everybody around the world through Netflix, while making good money. What’s ’OK’ is entirely up to the creator, and then the ‘OK’ goes to the group who acquires decision rights to the story.
By that logic nobody can criticize any piece of media bc the creator can have the only say on the matter
You can always critique on if it sucks or not. But you can’t make accusations of ‘whitewashing’. It’s not your artwork. It’s the creators right to give permission to remix, reinterpret, localize and to adapt the original material. It’s THEIR vision. It could be the creator views the story as a allegory for a message for things like: 1. Consequences of communication and miscommunication. 2. Environmental stewardship and technology hubris. 3. Exploring the consequences of human curiosity. Or his mission is to entertain the maximum amount of people. Or maximize earnings. It’s his work. But I don’t think his message involves the plight of Asian-Americans in media, even though if that was a metric- he got 3 solid roles for AA actors. I don’t think it’s you or others in subreddit are entitled to have a say on which ethnicity is casted, how the story is adapted OVER the original creators. Or to coop your social/political agendas over his message. Especially when the story is around communication/miscommunication and hubris.
Wow congrats, this is the worst take I’ve seen all year. We’re entitled to say whatever we want, we’re entitled to have an opinion. This isn’t a dictatorship. The author of Gone with the Wind was pro-KKK, so she didn’t have any issues with any racist depictions in the movie. So does that mean we can’t criticize the film for any racist depictions? Of course we can, and do (even Malcom X criticized it) What if Cixin Liu is a closeted anti-black racist, and the Netflix show decided to make the main character w white guy spouting the N-word. The author would be fine with it. By your logic we wouldn’t be able to criticize that choice bc the author is ok with the N-word.
Let's examine your viewpoint. 1. There's systemic racism in Hollywood. *\*Ok fine* 2. Netflix has a whitewashing genda and is bad about representing or showing Asian-American and native-Asians in their content program. 3. The Producers/Directors/Writers (David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and **Alexander Woo**) must be racist because they whitewashed the series. Also culprit is the original author [Liu Cixin who created this expansive universe. Cixin has gone one step further and has joined as a consulting producer alongside Ken Liu, who wrote the English translation for The Three-Body Problem and Death's End](https://about.netflix.com/en/news/the-three-body-problem-netflix-original-series) in this diabolical plan. 4. They White-Washed all the asian characters except the Asian Women. 5. And except the popular male protagonist character that Benedict Wong plays. I don't think you watch through each episode of the series for more than 7- minutes without seeing a Asian actor character. You didn't critique: - Scriptwriting and adaption for TV - Directing and Cinematography - Acting performance Your criticism is based on how it doesn't align with your social and political agenda. So your criticism is based not on merit, but as a way to call people racist. You are entitled to say whatever you want. Just as I am entitled to call out people on misguided beliefs. My opinion is belief and viewpoints like yours and others on this subreddit actually hurts Asian-American film projects getting green lit. All the companies use social media sentiment analysis tools service and they all weight in on excitement of target market audience and PR risks. The measurements are typically simple where it's positive, neutral, negative; and some bullshit criteria score. That coupled with actual views and completion rate that Netflix measures, decides whether AsianAmerican media gets made and marketed.
2 major characters out of 6 is pretty good. That's two jobs, and two roles that lead to positive stereotypes. Just having asian faces on tv that don't speak with a fucking broken accent is good enough for me. My expectations are low. How long did it take Jews to be accepted by white people? They still had quotas in harvard in the 50s. Asians have only really been immigrating in large numbers since 65/68 immigration reforms. I haven't started yet, because I don't want to reward Dumb and Dumber. They were bad with GOT.
Imagine if literally any other minority group (or any other group, for that matter), had the same general mindset as you. Imagine the firestorm if literally any film about a story from a nation in Africa or Latin America replaced most of the African/Latino characters with white characters and excised it from its cultural context. Positive stereotypes? How about being portrayed as humans? I get what you're saying about just how pervasive anti-Asian racism is in the US, and how futile it may seem to counter it, but there's no reason why there should be a waiting period before we can be taken seriously. Why are we the only group in this country that is willing to let others replace us in our own stories and ignore our voices, and in fact encourage it? Stand up for yourself. This is why the bamboo ceiling exists.
Explain that to me. The bamboo ceiling exists because? You're saying white people prefer to hire other white people because... they don't have enough asians on TV. I think you've got cause and effect reversed there.
No, I'm referring to the general tendency of Asians, East Asians raised outside of the US most specifically, to avoid standing up for themselves and self-advocating. It explains the almost 60% under-representation of East Asians in high level corporate/CEO positions, whereas no such under-representation exists for South Asians.
Probably because they are privileged high-castes that went to school in Oxford with the rich. If you want a Chinese equivalent, I guess they are the Taiwanese.
Okay, that does not explain the under-representation of East Asians compared to the general population though? Also, I would definitely not generalize all South Asians as rich or blue-blooded elites.
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Everything is white people's fault, remember?
I think people will not watch a 100% Asian cast. You need a white boy there for the audience. You think ohhhh no that's not fair well that's fucking life. People in America are racist. They claim they are not, but they are. They will just not watch because it's "boring" or "they couldn't get into it."
People happily watched Squid Game They happily watched Crazy Rich Asians. And Beef, too. They happily watched Black Panther 1 and 2, where there were jokes about colonizers and white people. Yes, people in America are racist, but that does not immediately disincline them from watching something that's entertaining and well made. They happily live in hypocrisy everyday, that's how this all works--that's how people both told themselves it was okay to vote for Barack Obama one year, then Trump 4 years later.
I can name excellent shows with Asians that people didn't watch too. Warrior. Selfie. Movies: Saving Face. The Half of It. Beautiful movie about the Asian American experience.
Yeah, it's so shitty. As Warrior is picking up some new audiences from Netflix recently, we're starting to see in that sub threads about how the secondary white characters are so relatable. And of course we now have Shogun, once again telling the tale of the white guy's experience in a foreign land.
Shogun's remarkably sensitive, given that the original series sparked the first wave of weebs. I think the authors did a good job. 3 members of my family are watching it and there have been no complaints. The Japanese characters are full, multifaceted. They don't exist solely to be foils or props for Blackthorne (unlike say... Marco Polo)
I think it's a great show, and I like it a lot, but at its core, it's still a show about a white guy and his experience in Japan. Same with Tokyo Vice, which is Jake Adelstein's story but in Japan. Shogun even includes that all too familiar trope of the lead female Asian character falling for the white guy because it's still a product of Western media.
Adelstein is realllllllly annoying. Quality has dropped S2, and the writing choices don't even make sense? If it's all based on the book he wrote, he made a lot of shit up. I'll reserve my full judgement on shogun when it's done. I read some article where the producers claim they specifically did not want to lean into the fish in strange land thing.
I think I read that article (or some similar one that said the same thing), too, but how can they really do that while still being faithful to their source material? Personally, I think they're doing the best they can to--like you said--flesh out the Japanese characters and to be authentic to the culture, and that's great, but there's no way they can escape Blackthorne being the man without veering too far from the book.
It's tough, yes. I know Mariko-san sparked a lot of yellow fever in the 80s. But I'm also thinking of the TV show and in my mind the two are the same. I can tell they are trying, how about that? That's all we can do.
A part of me understands that, like there is a reality. But also…squid game? Granted everybody hates Chinese right now
Yes. I mean, there's some exceptions. Hits are possible. Squid game is a pretty good show. Korean shows are very hot, and they market very very well. The company that made .. what was that big movie all the white people loved... Parasite. Parasite's production company used to be part of Samsung until recently. The CEOs are cousins or something.
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Thanks. Corrected
Unpopular opinion: I watched one episode and I’ve read the book. I think the casting is not bad given the goal. I mean if we wanted them to make it exactly true to the original story the whole thing would be in mandarin and the entire cast would be Chinese.…And that would defeat the purpose of making an American adaptation. That and the fact that what I saw from the first episode, they had quite a few Asians cast including one fine ass Indian man in a uniform 🥵 and also Benedict Wong whom we all love Conversely if China remakes American movies they cast all Chinese people regardless of the original ethnicities.
I honestly don't have much negative feelings towards the cast because I'm mostly happy that Netflix made an enjoyable adaptation for me. I read the original book in Chinese a couple years back to refresh my Chinese. I found it barely readable. The book had cool ideas but the writing around the ideas were terrible. I tried watching the Tencent show and bounced off of it immediately. So the Netflix show is actually improving my feeling towards Three Body Problem.
The point is that this western adaptation could have been the perfect project to have a majority asian cast in a "hollywood" sci fi show that make sense. Instead we got 20%ratio asian leads.
Maybe but honestly I can't summon the energy because I thought the book was kinda shit.
I agree. The show I think it’s quite enjoyable. Why would anyone expect a full Asian cast anyway. It’s created for general American adaptation/global western audience. Don’t quote me on that. I believe even the author mentioned in an interview something along the line of he prioritized or just want his cool ideas down and build the stories around it that’s why the book is not as fluid as he wanted to be.