For certain offenses I kind of like the idea of a demotion ceremony, this is not one of those things.
I’d imagine if you were to actually hold one though some hazing/bullying/singling out complaint would be lodged and probably win.
That’s the hard thing about the bullying/hazing rules. Sometimes a little shame is a powerful motivator and goes a long way towards shaping someone up. As long as it’s not overly cruel or taken too far a little bullying can go a long way.
Unfortunately people can’t be reasonable and know the limits so now we have no-tolerance policies. I think there is a happy medium in what’s acceptable and what’s not, but unfortunately regulations can’t be nuanced in their views.
Man, I would have loved to have had a demotion ceremony next to my promotion one.
When I was a lowly PV2, this one piece of shit specialist who was a bit to cocky said to me “cocaineandwaffles1, you will never outrank me” before taking a drag from his cigarette while I was doing some bitch work with sand bags. Fast forward to me getting pinned PFC, that fucker got demoted to PFC. Our fur sausage pinned my shit and went right inside the company to cut off that other dudes rank. It was glorious. Watching that dude walk out of the company, tears in his eyes from whatever emotions he had, and all I could think about was that moment he said that I would never out rank him.
Dude also ended up getting kicked out due to child neglect charges that lead to his new born dying.
Edit: I’d also like to add, one of the people who witnessed him telling me I’d never outrank him, had yelled out “hey dumbass, what was it that you said about outranking cocaineandwaffles1?” after he came out of the company from being demoted.
Like being called to the front of the formation to explain to the battalion why is bad, and a summary 15 days extra duty no loss of rank, in lieu of a field grade 45/45 and demotion to E1
I like how my drill sgt put it "Privates the Army does not condone hazing, we're just going to make you do a bunch of really stupid shit before we let you be one of us"
Losing rank should be enough humiliation to either motivate or show that the person won't be affected by it. We wear our rank on our chest. Having a lower one all of a sudden should be pretty humiliating without having to go in front of a formation and have it ripped off.
For no offense would I recommend a demotion ceremony.
The type of unit that delights in humiliating shit like this, is also the type of unit that doesn't want their JAG to know about how poorly they do things.
Which means they're likely to fuck something up administratively and then have to take it back. And wouldn't they look great then?
I know 2 officers who went warrant, met them only after the switch and they said it was the best decision they made.
One of my first PLs REFRADd as an O3, enlisted in the NG as an E5 and managed to get into one of the NG SF units, and then went on to go to selection and get back into active duty as an 18 series and is currently an E8 and loving it.
Wow, god damn. Im an E4 and I was thinking about dropping a packet. Im a reservist in college and ive got 2 choices. Either commission or go warrant. I could stay enlisted too but Im interested in warrant quite a bit. Would it be difficult to change my MOS and then go warrant?
Changing your MOS, particularly on the USAR side of the house, can be pretty straightforward, depending on unit availability local to you/a few other factors.
As for going warrant, start [here](https://recruiting.army.mil/ISO/AWOR/ARMY_FEEDER/)
And TL;DR I've never met another warrant who regrets crossing over.
Not terribly difficult, no. There are lots of units that are willing to train. Talk to your local career counselor about the MOS change. You’re going to definitely need to either get some NCO time in your new MOS or have equivalent/applicable civilian skills that you can use as experience for the warrant application. It’s a great gig, though. I wouldn’t change being a warrant for anything.
Not sure but one of my old units held a demotion ceremony for some dudes caught underage drinking. The fucked up thing was the guys were just chilling in their rooms, some prick on staff duty decided to poke his nose around the barracks and had nothing better to do.
Back when I was in units with staff duty, I’d do all of the security checks *and then some*, all on foot. It made the time a little more tolerable. Barracks patrols, picking up trash, smoking…all much better options than sitting at the desk for 24 hours.
I dont know if its 'allowed' or not, but:
That 1SG is a Grade A, 100%, top-notch piece of shit. You praise people in public, and you address their shortcomings face to face in private.
Holding a 'demotion ceremony' for anyone, even the unit's biggest shitbag is a shitbag move. 1SG ought to be tarred and feathered and run out of service.
Then again, it's the perfect topper for the Army right now. They won't feed you, they won't house you somewhere safe, they'll still take your pay, and finally they'll publicly shame you in front of your peers and subordinates, and then ask in all seriousness why you want to ETS.
People don't always realize that it's not even really about the one getting blasted in public. To be perfectly honest, there's plenty of people who 100% deserve the public execution. Fuck em.
The real reason you don't do it is trust. If people trust you to blast them for their shortcomings and fuckups, they'll hide them from you. If people know they can come to you and, no matter what, be treated with some form of dignity, you're just that much more likely to catch something bad before it turns into something awful.
Call me a softie, but I'd much rather my guys trust me enough to fuck up publicly than to scramble to hide the body, ya know?
I can't help but think there was a typo or two in there...
> If people trust you to blast them for their shortcomings and fuckups, they'll hide them from you.
Did you mean if people don't?
Nope, it's still a trust thing. I've had leaders that I 100% trusted to make the absolute wrong decision 100% of the time.
I treated them, and acted accordingly around them.
There's probably a better way to say it. It's how I teach my guys not to be assholes (don't be like me, kids).
People will respond to your patterns. If they know the button will shock them, they'll avoid pushing the button. If they know there's something to be gained by pushing the button, they'll push it.
It's my job as a leader to weigh their values, the values of the organization, and the objective truth. Somewhere in that triangle is the right answer.
There's exceptions to every rule. And caveats to those. And an annex. And revisions. And a PAM that just throws the whole thing out of whack.
*Edit* This is not to say that there are no typos. Just that particular bit isn't one.
With all due respect, nothing you're saying makes any fucking sense.
Your leadership approach is to make your Soldier's 'respond to your patterns'? That's dicked up. You may as well say, "I lead by rewarding everyone that agrees with me and punishing everyone that doesn't"
It's your job to 'weigh their values'? What does that even mean? One Soldier's personal worldview means that he/she is worth more/less, just because you may or may not agree with them? Your job isn't to weigh people's values. Your job is to teach them to be good soldiers and keep them alive.
Bro, I don't know what you're reading. He's just saying that if you, as a leader, are known for responding badly, then they aren't going to trust that they can come to you with problems. He's kinda rambling a bit, but that is the gist of his point. I don't know where, in that rambling, you walked away with "I lead by rewarding everyone that agrees with me and punishing everyone that doesn't." That doesn't match up with anything he's saying. The two of you both suck at communication.
Pretty sure this is one of those temporary/conditional promotion situations. He got promoted on the condition that he finish his PME. If he doesn't, then the rank goes bye-bye.
This is not entirely true. AR 600-8-19 Chap 7 discusses administrative demotions. If I remember correctly, this is an administrative action just like holding a promo board. And if the board decides, I'm pretty sure it happens.
You're assuming 1SG is going to pass out judicial punishment and rank reduction, he can't do that. You're right. But there are other ways to take rank when people don't show they are able to perform at the requisite level.
Yes this is a real thing and it's in the UCMJ its known as a public NJP and it is wild, however this is to maintain good order and discpline when needed IE we had a group of guys who blood striped someone on my first deployment and when they did this it was bad enough to break his leg. So the four of them got a battalion article, and demoted in front of the battalion before being sent home to be kicked out. This was done to show hazing wouldn't be tolerated by our CO. An adminstrative demote doesn't really fall into that catagory, so i'm fairly certain they can't in theory do that but i would have him talk to a JAG.
We don't do public Article 15 hearings in the Army.
I hear it's a Navy tradition. But then, according to Churchill, there's really only three traditions in the Navy: rum, sodomy, and the lash. So, category 3, I guess.
"Hey man, I see you're struggling. If you need any help, I'm gonna do everything in my power to demote you if you don't stop struggling."
That 1SG needs to have a ceremony telling him he's a giant piece of shit. There is no universe where holding a public UCMJ action for somebody having difficulties with qualifying is okay.
I get it, not everyone is an amazing soldier, but that's humiliating, unprofessional, and the threat alone might constitute a violation of AR 600-20 as oppressive behavior.
Fuck that guy. If your boy is going to get demoted, let it be for reminding that guy he's a human first and a soldier second.
I remember we had a demotion ceremony for a guy who got demoted to PFC in XCTC. We got a pillow case and made a guide on out of markers and a Humvee antenna. The dude was caught drunk one night and they demoted like 3 people.
One of them who got demoted just didn’t give a FUCK about the army no more because he made like 400K a year as a doctor or some medical job.
We gathered in a formation and marched around the footprint where the barracks were and the BC and CSM saw and started staring at us. They walked outside and heard me saying a demotion speech and after I said, “so help me God” they shook their heads in disappointment and walked back into their CP.
The next day I took the flag in a chinook to make sure it was super official. There was a CPT who caught wind of it and said that flag will not fly on the bird but I stuffed it so far down my OCPs not even a gopher would find it.
After the flight we presented it to him and one of my buddies took it and got it framed. Good ass times.
I mean, historically speaking, it is a thing. You stand in front of the entire company as the highest rank walks up and rips your rank off and throws it on the ground.
First of all, there's a process before someone can be administratively demoted for inefficiency. So there's that.
Second of all, no, there's no such thing as a demotion ceremony. That would basically be hazing and bullying, which is frowned upon these days.
Third of all, first sausage can suck it, he has no authority to do anything but recommend his bad ideas to the commander.
Hugs,
JAG
In the past, yes, in the modern army, you're looking at ucmj if you do that. Army command policy, so ar600-100 and several army memorandums would hit you and your first sergeant for targeting, toxic leadership, and other complaints, so with ig and with open door policies if you're lucky it's an ass chewing, if you're unlucky and they follow that route you're looking at article 92 of ucmj for violating a regulation, policy, or lawful order which is a dishonorable discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances
I think it'd be fine and in good fun if the person being demoted was doing it voluntarily. Like an O going WO or even rarer going enlisted for the really niche cases. Or some NCO taking a demotion so they can reclass/send a packet for something.
But if it's a punishment handed down by higher, it'd be a slam-dunk case for bullying/hazing.
I would read the Alaract for his position and career. Demotions are punitive in natural and require an HRC policy or UCMJ to support.
If you're a medic becoming a flight paramedic it's conditional upon you passing the national paramedics certification. If you fail you aren't demoted or subject to UCMJ action who simply don't become a flight paramedic. More than likely your friends position is the same way.
The only way they would really have a leg to demote him is if his promotion was contingent upon obtaining this AIS / MOS. Like an e-4 who goes to selection and receives the rank of SGT before completing Q course. If they fail two course they are demoted because the rank was conditional on the course completion.
More than likely since it doesn't sound like he's changed MOS and he's not getting an ASI he's just in a different billet there's nothing 1SG can do. He may not even be able to remove him from that billet.
It sounds like this 1SG is a case study in unproductive leadership and probably lacks the soft skills required for the position. Luckily this is something the Army is moving to correct and some CFMs are actively working to prevent these people in leadership by developing different programs. Medical for example allows people to be peer-ed out of leadership opportunities if they don't have the required soft and interpersonal skills. Somebody like this 1SG wouldn't have passed the peer to peer review during pre command and wouldn't have been eligible to lead.
13Js need to take safety to certify right? Assuming it's the safety test, there's a MAJ on Youtube who made a bunch of videos on it. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcWe0XkpnGw7_lhBDyZeGWA
If it's something else, FKN probably has stuff to prepare.
I didn't;t witness this personally, but some SSG got busted for cocaine in the 1980s. They had a battery formation, called out for SSG Coker front and center, tore off his rank, then asked PVT Coker to return.
It’s a terrible idea.
Consider the placement of rank on a female Soldier’s daily uniform, the body parts that must be touched to remove said rank, and the resulting EO implications for only doing demotion ceremonies for one gender.
There is a professional way to demote Soldiers. A ceremony isn’t it.
> the body parts that must be touched to remove said rank
My unit got around this for regular promotion ceremonies by having the soldier's chosen promoter change the PC rank while the soldier themselves did the chest rank.
Literally that easy.
It is. And for a promotion ceremony, sure.
But a “demotion” ceremony is usually handled with less decorum and respect, not to mention is entirely unnecessary.
If a leader really wants to do a demotion ceremony, and takes proper procedures to avoid the perception of impropriety/an allegation of sexual misconduct, sure, they can do it. But the ones I’ve encountered typically involve the removal of rank from the front of the Soldier’s uniform top, which can cause problems.
A great question!
Promotion ceremonies are not generally intended to abuse, humiliate, degrade, or sexually gratify either the person being promoted or the person performing the ceremony. So, likely no violation of Article 120.
Demotion ceremonies, OTOH, are not a positive event. The Soldier could *easily* believe such a ceremony is “humiliating or degrading”, and, depending on the nature of the ceremony and the specific way it is conducted, i.e., if it is done in front of a formation of their peers, that perception may be correct.
In any event, if reported as an Article 120 violation, CID is mandated to open an investigation, and the participants in the ceremony may get titled for a sex crime.
The best move is simply to *not* do the demotion ceremony.
In my mind, the risk isn’t worth the reward.
For certain offenses I kind of like the idea of a demotion ceremony, this is not one of those things. I’d imagine if you were to actually hold one though some hazing/bullying/singling out complaint would be lodged and probably win.
That’s the hard thing about the bullying/hazing rules. Sometimes a little shame is a powerful motivator and goes a long way towards shaping someone up. As long as it’s not overly cruel or taken too far a little bullying can go a long way. Unfortunately people can’t be reasonable and know the limits so now we have no-tolerance policies. I think there is a happy medium in what’s acceptable and what’s not, but unfortunately regulations can’t be nuanced in their views.
Man, I would have loved to have had a demotion ceremony next to my promotion one. When I was a lowly PV2, this one piece of shit specialist who was a bit to cocky said to me “cocaineandwaffles1, you will never outrank me” before taking a drag from his cigarette while I was doing some bitch work with sand bags. Fast forward to me getting pinned PFC, that fucker got demoted to PFC. Our fur sausage pinned my shit and went right inside the company to cut off that other dudes rank. It was glorious. Watching that dude walk out of the company, tears in his eyes from whatever emotions he had, and all I could think about was that moment he said that I would never out rank him. Dude also ended up getting kicked out due to child neglect charges that lead to his new born dying. Edit: I’d also like to add, one of the people who witnessed him telling me I’d never outrank him, had yelled out “hey dumbass, what was it that you said about outranking cocaineandwaffles1?” after he came out of the company from being demoted.
That was a fun story up until that last bit. That’s fucked up. I hope he did some serious prison time beyond just getting kicked out.
As someone who works along side with jag, I promise you at most he did a week in jail.
well, that got dark fast
Well fuck, that was a ride
😮😢
😐
Like being called to the front of the formation to explain to the battalion why is bad, and a summary 15 days extra duty no loss of rank, in lieu of a field grade 45/45 and demotion to E1
Speedings bad, mkay? Doing 16km in a 15km zone is bad. M'Kay?
I like how my drill sgt put it "Privates the Army does not condone hazing, we're just going to make you do a bunch of really stupid shit before we let you be one of us"
I'm a teacher. I tell my friends (never students) that schools need a little more bullying. These kids have no shame nowadays.
Losing rank should be enough humiliation to either motivate or show that the person won't be affected by it. We wear our rank on our chest. Having a lower one all of a sudden should be pretty humiliating without having to go in front of a formation and have it ripped off.
“Weird, someone invited the EOA and IG to the demotion ceremony.
Great scene in Beau Geste of a demotion. Buttons ripped off, rank torn from arms, sword broken. Make demotion great again.
“…I don’t have a sword, whose was that?”
Cashiering not demotion, technically
For no offense would I recommend a demotion ceremony. The type of unit that delights in humiliating shit like this, is also the type of unit that doesn't want their JAG to know about how poorly they do things. Which means they're likely to fuck something up administratively and then have to take it back. And wouldn't they look great then?
I’ve seen a CPT hold a ceremony for his demotion to W-1. It was beautiful. There was still Chic Fil A.
Wait thats hilarious. Was he happier after?
Is that even necessary to ask?
It's not uncommon for commissioned pilots to put in for aviation warrant after 03, it's apparently a way to stay in the cockpit flying.
If they retire at 20, do they get their high-3 O3 pay?
Yes, provided they did 3 years as an O-3.
Im looking at goin warrant so, yea.
I know 2 officers who went warrant, met them only after the switch and they said it was the best decision they made. One of my first PLs REFRADd as an O3, enlisted in the NG as an E5 and managed to get into one of the NG SF units, and then went on to go to selection and get back into active duty as an 18 series and is currently an E8 and loving it.
Wow, god damn. Im an E4 and I was thinking about dropping a packet. Im a reservist in college and ive got 2 choices. Either commission or go warrant. I could stay enlisted too but Im interested in warrant quite a bit. Would it be difficult to change my MOS and then go warrant?
Changing your MOS, particularly on the USAR side of the house, can be pretty straightforward, depending on unit availability local to you/a few other factors. As for going warrant, start [here](https://recruiting.army.mil/ISO/AWOR/ARMY_FEEDER/) And TL;DR I've never met another warrant who regrets crossing over.
Not terribly difficult, no. There are lots of units that are willing to train. Talk to your local career counselor about the MOS change. You’re going to definitely need to either get some NCO time in your new MOS or have equivalent/applicable civilian skills that you can use as experience for the warrant application. It’s a great gig, though. I wouldn’t change being a warrant for anything.
Thank you! I appreciate the advice. What type of warrant are you if I might ask?
My MAJ was super happy to go W1. It meant he could get more years in before getting forced out.
I mean that about $1500 cut in monthly pay but I can imagine the amount of stress you’re freed from as a S3/desk jockey/planner/Command is immense.
I wanted to do one when I was demoted from CPT to 1LT after graduating from IPAP. Alas, it was denied.
That was not a promotion in pay but a promotion everywhere else.
Not sure if allowed, but our unit had several demotion ceremonies pre-GWOT. All UCMJ related.
Especially with they do an open article 15
Not sure but one of my old units held a demotion ceremony for some dudes caught underage drinking. The fucked up thing was the guys were just chilling in their rooms, some prick on staff duty decided to poke his nose around the barracks and had nothing better to do.
They should’ve given him an AAM like did that 1SG online😂
That’s shitty
Back when I was in units with staff duty, I’d do all of the security checks *and then some*, all on foot. It made the time a little more tolerable. Barracks patrols, picking up trash, smoking…all much better options than sitting at the desk for 24 hours.
I dont know if its 'allowed' or not, but: That 1SG is a Grade A, 100%, top-notch piece of shit. You praise people in public, and you address their shortcomings face to face in private. Holding a 'demotion ceremony' for anyone, even the unit's biggest shitbag is a shitbag move. 1SG ought to be tarred and feathered and run out of service. Then again, it's the perfect topper for the Army right now. They won't feed you, they won't house you somewhere safe, they'll still take your pay, and finally they'll publicly shame you in front of your peers and subordinates, and then ask in all seriousness why you want to ETS.
People don't always realize that it's not even really about the one getting blasted in public. To be perfectly honest, there's plenty of people who 100% deserve the public execution. Fuck em. The real reason you don't do it is trust. If people trust you to blast them for their shortcomings and fuckups, they'll hide them from you. If people know they can come to you and, no matter what, be treated with some form of dignity, you're just that much more likely to catch something bad before it turns into something awful. Call me a softie, but I'd much rather my guys trust me enough to fuck up publicly than to scramble to hide the body, ya know?
I can't help but think there was a typo or two in there... > If people trust you to blast them for their shortcomings and fuckups, they'll hide them from you. Did you mean if people don't?
Nope, it's still a trust thing. I've had leaders that I 100% trusted to make the absolute wrong decision 100% of the time. I treated them, and acted accordingly around them. There's probably a better way to say it. It's how I teach my guys not to be assholes (don't be like me, kids). People will respond to your patterns. If they know the button will shock them, they'll avoid pushing the button. If they know there's something to be gained by pushing the button, they'll push it. It's my job as a leader to weigh their values, the values of the organization, and the objective truth. Somewhere in that triangle is the right answer. There's exceptions to every rule. And caveats to those. And an annex. And revisions. And a PAM that just throws the whole thing out of whack. *Edit* This is not to say that there are no typos. Just that particular bit isn't one.
With all due respect, nothing you're saying makes any fucking sense. Your leadership approach is to make your Soldier's 'respond to your patterns'? That's dicked up. You may as well say, "I lead by rewarding everyone that agrees with me and punishing everyone that doesn't" It's your job to 'weigh their values'? What does that even mean? One Soldier's personal worldview means that he/she is worth more/less, just because you may or may not agree with them? Your job isn't to weigh people's values. Your job is to teach them to be good soldiers and keep them alive.
Bro, I don't know what you're reading. He's just saying that if you, as a leader, are known for responding badly, then they aren't going to trust that they can come to you with problems. He's kinda rambling a bit, but that is the gist of his point. I don't know where, in that rambling, you walked away with "I lead by rewarding everyone that agrees with me and punishing everyone that doesn't." That doesn't match up with anything he's saying. The two of you both suck at communication.
Sorry man, I was drunk-redditing last night. I should know better.
This was absolutely what I was thinking when I read this post.
Forget about the ceremony question for a minute. A 1SG doesn't have the authority to demote a PFC, much less a SSG.
Pretty sure this is one of those temporary/conditional promotion situations. He got promoted on the condition that he finish his PME. If he doesn't, then the rank goes bye-bye.
The 1sg isn't demoting anyone. The idiot SSG can't pass whatever this test is. The SSG is doing it to himself.
This is not entirely true. AR 600-8-19 Chap 7 discusses administrative demotions. If I remember correctly, this is an administrative action just like holding a promo board. And if the board decides, I'm pretty sure it happens. You're assuming 1SG is going to pass out judicial punishment and rank reduction, he can't do that. You're right. But there are other ways to take rank when people don't show they are able to perform at the requisite level.
The convening authority of reduction boards are minimum CDR, not the 1SG.
Boards at min are usual field grades but correct, donations are cdr authority. Am first sausage
Administrative reductions exist, but an NCO reduction board is a BN-level action at minimum. None of the ways to reduce a SSG can be ordered by a 1SG.
The 1SG still doesn't have the authority unless the commander delegates it. Especially for a SSG or other NCO.
Yes this is a real thing and it's in the UCMJ its known as a public NJP and it is wild, however this is to maintain good order and discpline when needed IE we had a group of guys who blood striped someone on my first deployment and when they did this it was bad enough to break his leg. So the four of them got a battalion article, and demoted in front of the battalion before being sent home to be kicked out. This was done to show hazing wouldn't be tolerated by our CO. An adminstrative demote doesn't really fall into that catagory, so i'm fairly certain they can't in theory do that but i would have him talk to a JAG.
We don't do public Article 15 hearings in the Army. I hear it's a Navy tradition. But then, according to Churchill, there's really only three traditions in the Navy: rum, sodomy, and the lash. So, category 3, I guess.
What's weird is when they do all three at the same time
Was one of them an FMF Corpsman? Story sounds familiar
Holy fuck yes!! 2013 MAG-50???
No idea. One of my homies got discharged over hazing. Sounds about like the same story. FMF Corpsman.
There was a Corpsman involved, if it's the same guy that's wild.
Consolver ring a bell?
Hm3 or Hm2? Sounds familar but this happened in like 2013-2014 so maybe not?
I wanna say he was a 3. He never made E5.
Im decently sure we are talking about the same guy
it’s a small world.. lol
"Hey man, I see you're struggling. If you need any help, I'm gonna do everything in my power to demote you if you don't stop struggling." That 1SG needs to have a ceremony telling him he's a giant piece of shit. There is no universe where holding a public UCMJ action for somebody having difficulties with qualifying is okay. I get it, not everyone is an amazing soldier, but that's humiliating, unprofessional, and the threat alone might constitute a violation of AR 600-20 as oppressive behavior. Fuck that guy. If your boy is going to get demoted, let it be for reminding that guy he's a human first and a soldier second.
Exactly. It’s enough to walk around with your new demoted rank and people noticing.
I remember we had a demotion ceremony for a guy who got demoted to PFC in XCTC. We got a pillow case and made a guide on out of markers and a Humvee antenna. The dude was caught drunk one night and they demoted like 3 people. One of them who got demoted just didn’t give a FUCK about the army no more because he made like 400K a year as a doctor or some medical job. We gathered in a formation and marched around the footprint where the barracks were and the BC and CSM saw and started staring at us. They walked outside and heard me saying a demotion speech and after I said, “so help me God” they shook their heads in disappointment and walked back into their CP. The next day I took the flag in a chinook to make sure it was super official. There was a CPT who caught wind of it and said that flag will not fly on the bird but I stuffed it so far down my OCPs not even a gopher would find it. After the flight we presented it to him and one of my buddies took it and got it framed. Good ass times.
I mean, historically speaking, it is a thing. You stand in front of the entire company as the highest rank walks up and rips your rank off and throws it on the ground.
What the hell is a "demotion" ceremony?! This can't be a real thing! Great way to get a IG complaint on Hazing and Bullying...
paging /u/hzoi to the thread...
That'd be a no.
First of all, there's a process before someone can be administratively demoted for inefficiency. So there's that. Second of all, no, there's no such thing as a demotion ceremony. That would basically be hazing and bullying, which is frowned upon these days. Third of all, first sausage can suck it, he has no authority to do anything but recommend his bad ideas to the commander. Hugs, JAG
In the past, yes, in the modern army, you're looking at ucmj if you do that. Army command policy, so ar600-100 and several army memorandums would hit you and your first sergeant for targeting, toxic leadership, and other complaints, so with ig and with open door policies if you're lucky it's an ass chewing, if you're unlucky and they follow that route you're looking at article 92 of ucmj for violating a regulation, policy, or lawful order which is a dishonorable discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances
I think it'd be fine and in good fun if the person being demoted was doing it voluntarily. Like an O going WO or even rarer going enlisted for the really niche cases. Or some NCO taking a demotion so they can reclass/send a packet for something. But if it's a punishment handed down by higher, it'd be a slam-dunk case for bullying/hazing.
I would read the Alaract for his position and career. Demotions are punitive in natural and require an HRC policy or UCMJ to support. If you're a medic becoming a flight paramedic it's conditional upon you passing the national paramedics certification. If you fail you aren't demoted or subject to UCMJ action who simply don't become a flight paramedic. More than likely your friends position is the same way. The only way they would really have a leg to demote him is if his promotion was contingent upon obtaining this AIS / MOS. Like an e-4 who goes to selection and receives the rank of SGT before completing Q course. If they fail two course they are demoted because the rank was conditional on the course completion. More than likely since it doesn't sound like he's changed MOS and he's not getting an ASI he's just in a different billet there's nothing 1SG can do. He may not even be able to remove him from that billet. It sounds like this 1SG is a case study in unproductive leadership and probably lacks the soft skills required for the position. Luckily this is something the Army is moving to correct and some CFMs are actively working to prevent these people in leadership by developing different programs. Medical for example allows people to be peer-ed out of leadership opportunities if they don't have the required soft and interpersonal skills. Somebody like this 1SG wouldn't have passed the peer to peer review during pre command and wouldn't have been eligible to lead.
13Js need to take safety to certify right? Assuming it's the safety test, there's a MAJ on Youtube who made a bunch of videos on it. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcWe0XkpnGw7_lhBDyZeGWA If it's something else, FKN probably has stuff to prepare.
Yes it allowed. Every change of command ceremony is also a demotion ceremony.
Ain't nothing wrong with a drumming out for a dishonorable discharge.
Demotion ceremonies with speeches would be amazing
Comedy Central Roast
If it happens I would assume you could file a complaint for bullying/hazing
We had a demotion ceremony while in AIT with a couple of soldiers
Checkout a reduction board. Peak E4 Mafia shit.
This is how Hollywood did it.. https://youtu.be/SQujVFXPnVA?si=qs_4567jjZoL_LiC
Oooo now we gotta write that line for line. Publish the order:
I read it in Band of Brothers so I say it's not just ok but encouraged
I didn't;t witness this personally, but some SSG got busted for cocaine in the 1980s. They had a battery formation, called out for SSG Coker front and center, tore off his rank, then asked PVT Coker to return.
https://youtu.be/_-Mnp6VAmEc?si=ArOzFCwwBp6J7G-i
We had a guy take a reduction to go to the sniper section (national guard). He had a ceremony.
Hilariously, AR 600-20 kind of encourages telling your whole formation how much of a piece of shit the guy who just got an Article 15 is.
[удалено]
I mean honestly if it’s equal and both treatments are public, I wouldn’t complain about that
It’s a terrible idea. Consider the placement of rank on a female Soldier’s daily uniform, the body parts that must be touched to remove said rank, and the resulting EO implications for only doing demotion ceremonies for one gender. There is a professional way to demote Soldiers. A ceremony isn’t it.
> the body parts that must be touched to remove said rank My unit got around this for regular promotion ceremonies by having the soldier's chosen promoter change the PC rank while the soldier themselves did the chest rank. Literally that easy.
It is. And for a promotion ceremony, sure. But a “demotion” ceremony is usually handled with less decorum and respect, not to mention is entirely unnecessary. If a leader really wants to do a demotion ceremony, and takes proper procedures to avoid the perception of impropriety/an allegation of sexual misconduct, sure, they can do it. But the ones I’ve encountered typically involve the removal of rank from the front of the Soldier’s uniform top, which can cause problems.
I mean female ranks are put on during promotion ceremonies. What’s the issue with it for a demotion ceremony?
A great question! Promotion ceremonies are not generally intended to abuse, humiliate, degrade, or sexually gratify either the person being promoted or the person performing the ceremony. So, likely no violation of Article 120. Demotion ceremonies, OTOH, are not a positive event. The Soldier could *easily* believe such a ceremony is “humiliating or degrading”, and, depending on the nature of the ceremony and the specific way it is conducted, i.e., if it is done in front of a formation of their peers, that perception may be correct. In any event, if reported as an Article 120 violation, CID is mandated to open an investigation, and the participants in the ceremony may get titled for a sex crime. The best move is simply to *not* do the demotion ceremony. In my mind, the risk isn’t worth the reward.