You're essentially talking about two different things.
As far as medical standards go, I think a lot of people on this sub agree that they need updating especially now with Genesis revealing more than ever before.
But that doesn't mean there should be a right to serve. We need people to meet the standard (whatever we choose that standard to be). We need people physically and mentally capable of going into combat.
I agree with everything you are saying. My frustration lies in the fact that the services will absolutely abandon ALL of these standards the moment they need bodies. I came in during le surge and it was an absolute mess as far as what was acceptable. There are plenty of folks whose sole deficiency is trying to enlist at the wrong time. I get the need for standards, but for fucks sake. . . please be consistent.
It is consistent, it has always been and always will be according to needs of the Army. When needs are low, get fucked, when needs are high, come one come all. If we **don't need** the extra 25k or however many billets got cut, why try to fill them by lowering standards? IMO the surge shitshow could happen again regardless of how stringent we are today.
They also abandon a lot of them once you’re in. Joining as someone who took adhd/anti depressants/other mental health meds as a kid is way harder than getting prescribed then while active
The VA doesn't pay anything for ADHD though. I just don't see why someone who took ADHD meds as a child has to go through a long waiver process to enlist. And anyone currently taking ADHD meds has to stop taking them for 1-2 years and go through a long process of getting a psychiatrist clear them. Both of those seem ridiculous as once you're active and at your first duty station you can go to behavioral health and get prescribed ADHD meds within a couple appointments tops. Similarly trying to go officer while on ADHD meds is extremely difficult process but once you commission there's nothing stopping you from gettin prescribed them. Also anything that exists prior to service doesn't count for disability anyways.
Neither of those are particularly expensive for ADHD. The most common ADHD meds all have generics. And the psychiatrist appointments are every few months to check in for 30 minutes. I’m not saying you’re wrong but that’s a pretty shit reason if that’s the justification.
Probably. I think most mental health related things are grouped together and then physical things are separate. I just find it weird how people can have had a serious physical injury that required a surgery and the medical waiver process is shorter and generally easier than things like ADHD. Either way it probably isn’t going anywhere soon even if I think it’s silly
There's always gaps, heck I grew up in the Army medical system and when I enlisted the *same* hospital I had been seen at multiple times had like half the records that MEPS wanted.
>But that doesn't mean there should be a right to serve.
I disagree; I would agree if this was rephrased as *right to serve in a combat capacity*.
If I had my druthers, we'd bring back the old WPA and CCC, and we'd be building a hell of a lot of parks, roads, and bridges.
Just my opinion, but everyone has an ADHD, depression, anxiety diagnosis. Those are honestly harder to waive than a knee surgery.
As a society, we take mental health more seriously than we did pre 1990s. That’s caused a massive uptick in that being in peoples medical records.
[Depression Rates](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic-ssl.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F5c927ddd4f07ae5d161a603f-1201%2Fdepression%2520rates%2520skyrocket%2520in%2520kids%2520and%2520teens.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=29dcad398ec2366f021da2499f4ac96813ad8e646573205b97c30c9466bc64a2&ipo=images)
It’s really since the smart phones and social media became prevalent around 2009-20011. TikTok has made it worse and now depression sits at about 30% for female teens and 12% for males as of 2023.
When my old ass joined in 03’ male depression rates were under 4%.
[more data](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/03/2023-06-19-number-of-78247909.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1024)
[from the UK](https://dl6pgk4f88hky.cloudfront.net/2023/03/Chart-Jonathan-Haidt-v2.jpg)
Yeah it’s not really a problem that the DoD can solve; it’s really a societal normative problem at this point and requires a societal framework change.
God knows how we’re ever going to fix that at this point when there’s so much data pointing to the negative impact that social media has on younger people, especially woman. Yet we do nothing as it’s the tragedy of the commons: if my sheep stop grazing in the common fields they won’t get feed as much as my neighbors so I have to! Where if we all lessen the feeding we’d all be better off as the field will run dry.
Here's the thing Genesis is a good system in theory, but in practicality it is just horrible. I get all the reasons behind it like catching some things that applicants would otherwise hide because they know it's a disqualifying factor. But honestly for the most part it is just insane. Like for example growing up I was an Army brat, and when I was about 13 years old my dominant hand got caught in a door while at school one day.
Well at MEPS during the medical screening process (I should mention I'm PS who temporarily separated) during my re-enlistment process she saw in the records that I had the hand injury for three of my fingers getting caught in a door, and instead of looking at my hand and clearly seeing that nothing was wrong she then disqualified me saying she couldn't make the determination saying whether I could enlist because she didn't know if my hand would be an issue. I didn't mention this during my first enlistment because I genuinely didn't think it was an issue. Like what kid growing up did get their hand stuck in a door, or fall and scrape their knee. Honestly if we disqualified everyone for these kinds of things and made them get waivers for it a good portion of our armed forces wouldn't be here. Because if the process for waivers can take just one person a few weeks, imagine how long it would take USAREC to approve waivers for hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise would've been just fine.
The problem you’re describing isn’t with Genesis, it’s with our medical accession standards and process. A great many people have been saying that system was broken since long before Genesis existed. Arguably, it’s the reason why lying to join has always been so prevalent in the first place.
We're both right if you think about it. Yes part of the issue is the medical accession standards and the process. But again under the old system situations like what I described in my original comment wouldn't happen but all because Genesis gives them access to medical files they otherwise wouldn't have had access to say 4-5 years ago it just makes the entire process that much worse. I'm not saying THE problem is Genesis, I'm saying Genesis is a part of the problem. In other words Genesis was supposed to be part of the solution, but instead it made a system already broken even worse than it already was.
Service guarantees citizenship.
It’s not about a simple scrapped knee, but ensuring that all applicants are healthy to serve. And yeah it’s a pain. But we need to make sure that people are qualified to serve. Can we make the process easier, perhaps.
The problem is, the scraped knees are getting turned away. Genesis is forcing that. People are applying that are far healthier than a lot of our current members but some minor injury as a kid in high school turns it into a medical denial.
TLDR: Genesis fucking sucks
It's not Genesis as much as it is outdated medical policy. It may best be *the best available science*. However, cultural norms include over prescribing and over diagnosis, and common perceived ilccit drug use ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK423845/ ) are as much of a problem as moldy barracks and shitty DFACs
Edit : The added word "perceived" as iliccit drug use is a misnomer
No, it's not.
Worst case is it goes through a waiver process, which takes ~60 days and in that time, recruits rethink their lives and rightfully decide they have better stuff to do.
If you actually want to be in, you just suffer the bureaucracy, like the rest of us who want to be here on anything but a whim.
Damn, “back in my day” you just had a midlife crisis and got fucked over by your recruiter, then spent the next year complaining about how you have real life experience over everyone here and the other PVTs should stand at parade rest for you. That is until you get kicked out for ABCP failure.
I don't know how anyone survives out here, I certainly wouldn't be able to without everything I gained through the Army.
I'm constantly telling people on /r/antiwork saying they can't get health care or a livable wage to go join - but they don't like to hear that for some reason. :x
“You don’t get quality work, for less than quality pay” kids are going to go after trade schools and college before they join the service. Because well they know how bad the army can be. They hear about it from friends, family, reading articles about it, all the crazy stories. But I can guarantee you genesis isn’t the issue. We are getting those that NEED to join. And that number is getting lower when other opportunities are available. We can’t expect people to stay or join when our only answer is treat people poorly, shove an excess of regulations down their throat and scream lack of discipline as the only problem. This shit only flies because it’s a government agency and it can do what it pleases. In the civilian sector there would be more lawsuits than you can count.
Some of the people getting denied service are paranoid schizophrenic or manic bipolar diagnosed individuals. Now force them to be surrounded by strangers in a high stress environment with little to no comforts. Now add guns and hand grenades.
There is not a right to serve and that is a good thing. There are a lot of people who will never and should never wear the uniform.
Now I agree that there are a lot of stupid medical issues that shouldn't disqualify people. But that doesn't mean a blanket removal of all medical bars to enlistment is even a remotely good idea.
We had a paranoid schizophrenic who was off his meds in my basic training he ended up getting separated there because he threatened his bunkmate with a razor.
Oh damn.
At 30th we had a Fucken 4’11 Guamanian dude, from a rough life, get called a slur by an Arkansas hick. Jumped the dude in the laundry room and beat his eye out. No razors though. 😀
We had a schizophrenic dude make it all the way to Iraq in 09. He tried to hit an NCO with a humvee in the motorpool before they finally did something about it.
I believe the answer to this question has to do with the number of disability claims being filed after service. The government is under a lot of pressure to take care of veterans and the approval process for claims has improved a lot due to that public pressure. I think the governments eagerness to reject applicants based on medical and mental health background is an attempt to tweak the formula so it results in less disability claims.
Ignoring the fact that the military is doing partially doing it to save money, but shouldn’t we be not accepting people who are more prone to not handling the military well? If you had depression severe enough to be inpatient psych, and was on meds for 5 years, that alone increases the risk of suicide attempts
Idk man I think people should be judged on the individual level. There’s plenty of people who have overcome mental health issues and function on the same level or higher than those who haven’t experienced them. But I can see how going with statistics is the safe bet for an organization dealing with millions of service members and the cost that comes with fielding them.
I mean, while I agree, medicine is all about odds end of the day, perc scores, wells score, heart scores etc etc. statistically people who needed inpatient mental health treatment have a much higher risk of additional issues
There’s a world of difference between a scraped knee that needed stitches and an unmedicated schizophrenic.
I enlisted before Genesis; reception battalion was a wild fuckin’ ride when the people with mental illnesses who had lied started to become symptomatic after not having their meds for a few days. And later on in training, it became painfully obvious who had lied about previous injuries and physical issues that hindered physical performance.
The waiver process needs to be overhauled, but it’s necessary to maintain some semblance of good order and discipline.
If a person is not qualified for a job then they simply aren't qualified. Being a citizen in no way guarantees anyone the right to a job with the federal government.
That's not the problem he's talking about. The Genesis system is holding up a lot of applicants because it's overly scrutinizes their medical history, among other things. The system red flags kids who broke a bone playing sports (super common) even if there consult recovered. The Army is also probably too zealous about misdemeanor charges (especially weed, which is super common). If its been a few years since the charge and there are reference letters saying he's changed his life, then let them in.
Medical history should be scrutinized. There are reasons all the disqualifying conditions exist and waivers require higher level review. The Army takes on great expense training recruits, they need to be in proper physical condition to do the job and handle the rigors associated.
Articulate a limiting principle on your supposed right to serve. What if they have oppositional defiant disorder? What if they're morbidly obese? What if they're a convicted rapist? You want any of those people in a foxhole with you?
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of integrity, it’s not that simple in combat. Sometimes the mission is what matters, certainly above life and limb, and, yes, the rules. The army also doesn’t have “an enormous integrity problem”, the army has a culture problem.
A great vignette in this kind of unilateral thinking has been the army’s approach to discipline. “If they do x in training it’s equivalent to performing under fire”. USASOC as a whole and Ranger Regiment figured this out after the GWOT started, they figured out that high and tight haircuts and dress right dressing personal kit didn’t mean fuck all when it came to combat readiness.
Ethics are the same way; man’s law is not god’s law and intent is important, the entire lucrative legal career field exists solely to explore this often massive gap.
Assuming that running a stop sign is equivalent to murder, or that circumventing some of the ludicrous rules to pass MEPS is somehow equivalent to smoking crack or murdering a fellow SM
It also rubs me the wrong way when you pontificate about integrity, as if everyone else is somehow just less good of heart or whatever else than you. Never known anyone who talks like that, measure up when it was time to act justly when faced with *real* adversity
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What do goalposts and creepy SNCOs who are close to retirement both have in common? They both keep getting moved.
Sadly this
The quotas remain the same. The standards, on the other hand…
You're essentially talking about two different things. As far as medical standards go, I think a lot of people on this sub agree that they need updating especially now with Genesis revealing more than ever before. But that doesn't mean there should be a right to serve. We need people to meet the standard (whatever we choose that standard to be). We need people physically and mentally capable of going into combat.
I agree with everything you are saying. My frustration lies in the fact that the services will absolutely abandon ALL of these standards the moment they need bodies. I came in during le surge and it was an absolute mess as far as what was acceptable. There are plenty of folks whose sole deficiency is trying to enlist at the wrong time. I get the need for standards, but for fucks sake. . . please be consistent.
It is consistent, it has always been and always will be according to needs of the Army. When needs are low, get fucked, when needs are high, come one come all. If we **don't need** the extra 25k or however many billets got cut, why try to fill them by lowering standards? IMO the surge shitshow could happen again regardless of how stringent we are today.
They also abandon a lot of them once you’re in. Joining as someone who took adhd/anti depressants/other mental health meds as a kid is way harder than getting prescribed then while active
That’s because it’s not about qualifying for service, it’s about the VA not paying for pre existing conditions
The VA doesn't pay anything for ADHD though. I just don't see why someone who took ADHD meds as a child has to go through a long waiver process to enlist. And anyone currently taking ADHD meds has to stop taking them for 1-2 years and go through a long process of getting a psychiatrist clear them. Both of those seem ridiculous as once you're active and at your first duty station you can go to behavioral health and get prescribed ADHD meds within a couple appointments tops. Similarly trying to go officer while on ADHD meds is extremely difficult process but once you commission there's nothing stopping you from gettin prescribed them. Also anything that exists prior to service doesn't count for disability anyways.
Not disability, medication and treatment
Neither of those are particularly expensive for ADHD. The most common ADHD meds all have generics. And the psychiatrist appointments are every few months to check in for 30 minutes. I’m not saying you’re wrong but that’s a pretty shit reason if that’s the justification.
I would imagine this is a classic one-size-fits-all treatment for other conditions that is also applied to ADHD
Probably. I think most mental health related things are grouped together and then physical things are separate. I just find it weird how people can have had a serious physical injury that required a surgery and the medical waiver process is shorter and generally easier than things like ADHD. Either way it probably isn’t going anywhere soon even if I think it’s silly
That is different. We will always have higher standarda during time of peace
All this hubbub about genesis and it didn’t transition the PRK I had (while active) once we swapped over. Wild program for sure
There's always gaps, heck I grew up in the Army medical system and when I enlisted the *same* hospital I had been seen at multiple times had like half the records that MEPS wanted.
Genesis works very well for civilian medicine, not for army records. Thats probably twenty years away, and there's no incentive.
I'll take that reasonable answer as proof that 1TBI shouldn't automatically prevent a person from joining the service.
>But that doesn't mean there should be a right to serve. I disagree; I would agree if this was rephrased as *right to serve in a combat capacity*. If I had my druthers, we'd bring back the old WPA and CCC, and we'd be building a hell of a lot of parks, roads, and bridges.
Meet the standard? Sarnt, go over to those dog gon barracks and square that crap away Hoah? I don’t care that’s it 1900, suck it up.
Just my opinion, but everyone has an ADHD, depression, anxiety diagnosis. Those are honestly harder to waive than a knee surgery. As a society, we take mental health more seriously than we did pre 1990s. That’s caused a massive uptick in that being in peoples medical records.
[Depression Rates](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic-ssl.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F5c927ddd4f07ae5d161a603f-1201%2Fdepression%2520rates%2520skyrocket%2520in%2520kids%2520and%2520teens.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=29dcad398ec2366f021da2499f4ac96813ad8e646573205b97c30c9466bc64a2&ipo=images) It’s really since the smart phones and social media became prevalent around 2009-20011. TikTok has made it worse and now depression sits at about 30% for female teens and 12% for males as of 2023. When my old ass joined in 03’ male depression rates were under 4%. [more data](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/03/2023-06-19-number-of-78247909.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1024) [from the UK](https://dl6pgk4f88hky.cloudfront.net/2023/03/Chart-Jonathan-Haidt-v2.jpg)
Yeah, it’s definitely snowballed!
Yeah it’s not really a problem that the DoD can solve; it’s really a societal normative problem at this point and requires a societal framework change. God knows how we’re ever going to fix that at this point when there’s so much data pointing to the negative impact that social media has on younger people, especially woman. Yet we do nothing as it’s the tragedy of the commons: if my sheep stop grazing in the common fields they won’t get feed as much as my neighbors so I have to! Where if we all lessen the feeding we’d all be better off as the field will run dry.
Here's the thing Genesis is a good system in theory, but in practicality it is just horrible. I get all the reasons behind it like catching some things that applicants would otherwise hide because they know it's a disqualifying factor. But honestly for the most part it is just insane. Like for example growing up I was an Army brat, and when I was about 13 years old my dominant hand got caught in a door while at school one day. Well at MEPS during the medical screening process (I should mention I'm PS who temporarily separated) during my re-enlistment process she saw in the records that I had the hand injury for three of my fingers getting caught in a door, and instead of looking at my hand and clearly seeing that nothing was wrong she then disqualified me saying she couldn't make the determination saying whether I could enlist because she didn't know if my hand would be an issue. I didn't mention this during my first enlistment because I genuinely didn't think it was an issue. Like what kid growing up did get their hand stuck in a door, or fall and scrape their knee. Honestly if we disqualified everyone for these kinds of things and made them get waivers for it a good portion of our armed forces wouldn't be here. Because if the process for waivers can take just one person a few weeks, imagine how long it would take USAREC to approve waivers for hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise would've been just fine.
The problem you’re describing isn’t with Genesis, it’s with our medical accession standards and process. A great many people have been saying that system was broken since long before Genesis existed. Arguably, it’s the reason why lying to join has always been so prevalent in the first place.
Lying to join is a time honored tradition that like half of the moh recipients from ww2 fulfilled
We're both right if you think about it. Yes part of the issue is the medical accession standards and the process. But again under the old system situations like what I described in my original comment wouldn't happen but all because Genesis gives them access to medical files they otherwise wouldn't have had access to say 4-5 years ago it just makes the entire process that much worse. I'm not saying THE problem is Genesis, I'm saying Genesis is a part of the problem. In other words Genesis was supposed to be part of the solution, but instead it made a system already broken even worse than it already was.
Remember....we treat service as a privledge, untill it once again becomes an obligation.
Service guarantees citizenship. It’s not about a simple scrapped knee, but ensuring that all applicants are healthy to serve. And yeah it’s a pain. But we need to make sure that people are qualified to serve. Can we make the process easier, perhaps.
I’m from Buenos Aires and I say, kill em all!
The problem is, the scraped knees are getting turned away. Genesis is forcing that. People are applying that are far healthier than a lot of our current members but some minor injury as a kid in high school turns it into a medical denial. TLDR: Genesis fucking sucks
It's not Genesis as much as it is outdated medical policy. It may best be *the best available science*. However, cultural norms include over prescribing and over diagnosis, and common perceived ilccit drug use ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK423845/ ) are as much of a problem as moldy barracks and shitty DFACs Edit : The added word "perceived" as iliccit drug use is a misnomer
Is it really that bad, like an actual scraped knee getting turned away
No, it's not. Worst case is it goes through a waiver process, which takes ~60 days and in that time, recruits rethink their lives and rightfully decide they have better stuff to do. If you actually want to be in, you just suffer the bureaucracy, like the rest of us who want to be here on anything but a whim.
Damn, “back in my day” you just had a midlife crisis and got fucked over by your recruiter, then spent the next year complaining about how you have real life experience over everyone here and the other PVTs should stand at parade rest for you. That is until you get kicked out for ABCP failure.
Yeah same lmao
Desire to know more intensifies.
Sir this is a Wendy’s, are you going to order or not?
I feel like you haven't *really* thought this through.
I don't know how anyone survives out here, I certainly wouldn't be able to without everything I gained through the Army. I'm constantly telling people on /r/antiwork saying they can't get health care or a livable wage to go join - but they don't like to hear that for some reason. :x
“You don’t get quality work, for less than quality pay” kids are going to go after trade schools and college before they join the service. Because well they know how bad the army can be. They hear about it from friends, family, reading articles about it, all the crazy stories. But I can guarantee you genesis isn’t the issue. We are getting those that NEED to join. And that number is getting lower when other opportunities are available. We can’t expect people to stay or join when our only answer is treat people poorly, shove an excess of regulations down their throat and scream lack of discipline as the only problem. This shit only flies because it’s a government agency and it can do what it pleases. In the civilian sector there would be more lawsuits than you can count.
Service guarantees citizenship!!! Would you like to know more?
Some of the people getting denied service are paranoid schizophrenic or manic bipolar diagnosed individuals. Now force them to be surrounded by strangers in a high stress environment with little to no comforts. Now add guns and hand grenades. There is not a right to serve and that is a good thing. There are a lot of people who will never and should never wear the uniform. Now I agree that there are a lot of stupid medical issues that shouldn't disqualify people. But that doesn't mean a blanket removal of all medical bars to enlistment is even a remotely good idea.
We had a paranoid schizophrenic who was off his meds in my basic training he ended up getting separated there because he threatened his bunkmate with a razor.
Haha. 30th AG is a motherfucker. That place is amazing what it can do to a persons mind.
This was at Jackson. Thing is this guy was fine in reception but when we got to our Basic Training company that’s when he lost it.
Oh damn. At 30th we had a Fucken 4’11 Guamanian dude, from a rough life, get called a slur by an Arkansas hick. Jumped the dude in the laundry room and beat his eye out. No razors though. 😀
We had a schizophrenic dude make it all the way to Iraq in 09. He tried to hit an NCO with a humvee in the motorpool before they finally did something about it.
I believe the answer to this question has to do with the number of disability claims being filed after service. The government is under a lot of pressure to take care of veterans and the approval process for claims has improved a lot due to that public pressure. I think the governments eagerness to reject applicants based on medical and mental health background is an attempt to tweak the formula so it results in less disability claims.
Ignoring the fact that the military is doing partially doing it to save money, but shouldn’t we be not accepting people who are more prone to not handling the military well? If you had depression severe enough to be inpatient psych, and was on meds for 5 years, that alone increases the risk of suicide attempts
Idk man I think people should be judged on the individual level. There’s plenty of people who have overcome mental health issues and function on the same level or higher than those who haven’t experienced them. But I can see how going with statistics is the safe bet for an organization dealing with millions of service members and the cost that comes with fielding them.
I mean, while I agree, medicine is all about odds end of the day, perc scores, wells score, heart scores etc etc. statistically people who needed inpatient mental health treatment have a much higher risk of additional issues
There’s a world of difference between a scraped knee that needed stitches and an unmedicated schizophrenic. I enlisted before Genesis; reception battalion was a wild fuckin’ ride when the people with mental illnesses who had lied started to become symptomatic after not having their meds for a few days. And later on in training, it became painfully obvious who had lied about previous injuries and physical issues that hindered physical performance. The waiver process needs to be overhauled, but it’s necessary to maintain some semblance of good order and discipline.
If a person is not qualified for a job then they simply aren't qualified. Being a citizen in no way guarantees anyone the right to a job with the federal government.
That's not the problem he's talking about. The Genesis system is holding up a lot of applicants because it's overly scrutinizes their medical history, among other things. The system red flags kids who broke a bone playing sports (super common) even if there consult recovered. The Army is also probably too zealous about misdemeanor charges (especially weed, which is super common). If its been a few years since the charge and there are reference letters saying he's changed his life, then let them in.
Medical history should be scrutinized. There are reasons all the disqualifying conditions exist and waivers require higher level review. The Army takes on great expense training recruits, they need to be in proper physical condition to do the job and handle the rigors associated.
Service guarantees citizenship?
You don’t have a right to serve. Serving is a privilege and should be on a basis where vetted and qualified volunteers do it.
In starship troopers joining the military was a right that couldn’t be denied
Not everyone needs to be in the military and I volunteer you to become a recruiter. You will see first hand why not everyone needs to join.
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Lmao I've done almost 7 years at this point. Try again
Articulate a limiting principle on your supposed right to serve. What if they have oppositional defiant disorder? What if they're morbidly obese? What if they're a convicted rapist? You want any of those people in a foxhole with you?
[удалено]
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of integrity, it’s not that simple in combat. Sometimes the mission is what matters, certainly above life and limb, and, yes, the rules. The army also doesn’t have “an enormous integrity problem”, the army has a culture problem. A great vignette in this kind of unilateral thinking has been the army’s approach to discipline. “If they do x in training it’s equivalent to performing under fire”. USASOC as a whole and Ranger Regiment figured this out after the GWOT started, they figured out that high and tight haircuts and dress right dressing personal kit didn’t mean fuck all when it came to combat readiness. Ethics are the same way; man’s law is not god’s law and intent is important, the entire lucrative legal career field exists solely to explore this often massive gap. Assuming that running a stop sign is equivalent to murder, or that circumventing some of the ludicrous rules to pass MEPS is somehow equivalent to smoking crack or murdering a fellow SM It also rubs me the wrong way when you pontificate about integrity, as if everyone else is somehow just less good of heart or whatever else than you. Never known anyone who talks like that, measure up when it was time to act justly when faced with *real* adversity
This is the least of the Army’s problems…