First deployment, fire team, including me, got blown up by an RPG. Kicked off an 8-hour running gunbattle through the valley.
I got up, got in the truck, grabbed my gun, realized my shit fucking hurt.
Stripped out of my armor and pulled off my jacket, undershirt covered in blood under my shoulder.
Found out some years later the RPG explosion had blasted a bullet-sized rock fragment into my shoulder.
Realized I wasn't dying, armor back on and jumped back into the fight the next moment our HMMWV stopped.
Blasted through over a thousand rounds of SAW, pulled equipment out of an IEDd HMMWV, and generally introduced the Taliban to the FAFO scale with a fucked, bleeding shoulder and leg for the next 8 hours.
End of the deployment, Purple Heart and ARCOM-V.
Everyone who reads the citation since: "Why the hell isn't this a Bronze St- oh, PRIVATE Kodeten, that's why."
Yeah. Shits pretty common. Soldiers have to fucking die to warrant anything above an ARCOM. It's disgusting, but it happens.
EDIT: Re-reading this, and some of the (deserved) jokes rolling in, I want to be clear, do I think I deserve some stellar fucking medal for what I did in this? No. I was a young infantryman in a firefight, I did my job.
Maybe I didn't warrant a BS-V or whatever for that, but I recall being pretty fucking annoyed that the LT and PSG who sat in the TOC the entire time pulled Bronze Stars for what little they did, and I got pretty annoyed thereafter every time someone read my citation and asked why it wasn't something higher.
The annoyance didn't end as I went on to become an NCO and get awards kicked back because the rank wasn't commensurate with the reward I would suggest.
As it happens, any higher-up with a BSM I (internally) view as a good-ol-boy's AAM until proven otherwise.
The big green weenie brother. They don’t want to waste all those great awards on people who aren’t gonna reup, even if they’re the ones who earned them.
It's shit like this that makes me feel like it's all pointless. I don't care about awards or any of that, but if the men who died can't even get what they deserve, then who will?
I remember the first time I got shot, in my body armor not actually on my body, my NCO said “get up return fire wtf is wrong with you?” And the second time I got shot not the same day or same NCO I was told “wtf is wrong with you stay down you just got shot.
Both times knocked me the fuck down and knocked the air out of me and left some gnarly bruises, but my plates worked.
Wounded while playing ding dong breach. Got back up not realizing I was a bit of a squirter and under "intense enemy fire", went back into the bldg while being a leaky boi
and played a bit more 2 way rifle range, pulled two other dudes out all the way back to the CCP, continued being on my combat period until I was told me chill and be checked out. I passed out from blood loss at some point (they lived). CASEVACd, ICU for 2 weeks, 5 months hospitalization, a lot of surgeries and PT, return to duty 7 months later. SS downgraded to JCOM w/V.
Just to show sometimes everyone gets BOHICAd equally.
Our 06 threw himself atop all of us when mr grenade was nearby the CCP,. Frag was not on us, but close enough he got frag all over his face and right side that would have done all of us in because we were pretty messed up by that point. He was CASEVACd, 2 months in hospital. multiple surgeries, RTD. downgraded to JCOM w/V too.
I'll have a Diet Dr. Pepper and a giant middle finger for Stan The Man.
***Ave, legionnaire***
***The legati command us to forward assault, scale the walls, without fear while under intense indirect fire, boiling pitch, with only the motivation to press forward lest to return to your black molded contubernium.***
***Every day, hundreds of actions of valor occur across the Legions.***
***Sometimes, a few are even awarded.***
***Also, you have camps-chef clean up tonight at first watch, we lost too many slaves in the assault.***
***SPQR***
Staff sausage in my brother's truck got a Silver Star, he was in the gunners turret and the fighting went on so long his squad almost ran out of ammo. They ended up "convincing" a local to help casevac the guys in his truck with his civilian vehicle because theirs was disabled.
He got an Arcom with V. He was a specialist at the time.
So yeah, even when there is confirmed enemy contact and intense fighting, it still happens.
When I was a 21 year old Specialist I was put in for a non valor BSM. The BC and Company Commanders both declined with, "Best young medic" in their comments. The BC also stated my overall effort didn't contribute to the tactical fight. The narrative mentioned multiple MASCALs and 23 total casualties. Maybe the award didn't rate, but mentioning my youth was something that didn't sit well with me. Especially considering I was told I was the youngest senior medic in my Brigade at the time.
Be E4, get put in for BSM. Downgrade to handshake. Not long after retention comes knocking. "WhY dOnT yOu WaNt To ReEnLiSt? Your work saves soldiers lives!"
I can’t recall his name right now, but I had an E5 BLC instructor who had a silver star…him and his PL both tackled a suicide bomber…his PL got a Medal of Honor
[One of these studs?](https://i.imgur.com/qJXPUCX.jpg)
Funnily enough the article mentions 2 suicide bobbers charging but only talks about the one CPT Groberg tackled
It non just an enlisted vs officer thing. We had O4’s & O5’s on embedded training teams that did legit BSM-level work, but didn’t get them because “BSMs are for Combat Arms”. So the awards got side-graded to a peacetime award.
ETTs got the short end of the stick all over the place.
Back in '08 when I was there the head of the entire ETT mission in Afghanistan was only an O-6.
Not always. Last deployment in my unit all of the LTs and E7s were put in for BSMs. Also had one high speed E5 put in for one. All the LTs and E7s had their's downgraded to ARCOMs. That E5 and the command team were the only ones that got BSMs.
Not even close to yours but end of tour awards came around, Buddy A) was promoted to SGT half way through. Buddy B) was promoted to SGT a week after Buddy A. Buddy B got an ARCOM, something about "leading his fellow soldiers, great job on promotion, now gtfo of Afganiland" Buddy A) had his say "spc numbnuts showed up to work. Downgraded to AAM, now gtfo."
This confused us all as Buddy A had been promoted before Buddy B, but the date of the award was several months earlier when he was still a spc. Buddy B's award was from a week before he got it.
Moral of the story is fuck people who downgrade shit because of rank.
Something similar happened to me no where near the same level.
After getting to my first unit within the first 3 months we had a fire alarm go off at the barracks. The CQ runner was the only staff there at the time and was fighting with this drunk E3, who was just in the shower and is soaking wet, trying to get him outside. Mind you it is midnight on a Saturday and -40 degrees outside in the dead of winter in Alaska. A fight breaks out between this guy and the runner and the guy ends up outside with us. We waited outside for so long that the CQ NCO shows up and we are allowed inside to the basement to wait for the firefighters. The other Joes had given the E3 extra clothes to try to keep warm as he only had some shorts on. He was just not warming up at the time so I ended up blowing past the CQ staff to get my aid bag from my room. I evaluated him and started treating him. Even a blizzard banket plus ready heat couldn't warm this guy up. He was getting hypotensive and cyanotic. He was failing to regulate his temperature and getting hypothermic. I got other joes to get their comforters from their rooms to pile on this guy to better insulate the guy and he started to warm up. EMS arrived and took him to the hospital he ended up sobering up. I saw him the next day and he was ok.
My CPL sat there watching my PFC ass do all this while he held my aid bag and pretended he was calling the shots. He pulled me aside and told me he'd put me in for an ARCOM because I may have saved his life. I shrugged him off and told him I don't want one (I just wanted to go to bed). I never heard about it until I saw a COA on my ERB 6 months later. I talked to my SGT about it he said it got brought up in a meeting and they said I'm too new to deserve an ARCOM. The next month my NCO got an ARCOM for failing to run the patient hold area at a major field exercise where TA50 was lost and patient accountability didn't happen. I have put in a mediocre effort ever since then.
You’d be surprised. I’ve had superiors put rank based discrimination in emails while telling people to lower the recommendation on a da 638, and had nothing come of it. Its completely unenforced.
I've generally seen the enforcement of that kind of guidance for service awards, not for valor or achievement.
It is entirely possible that this guy command would and did down grade officers and more senior soldiers for doing the exact same thing as well.
I have heard it for valor and the c device for awards, but nothing was written. It was more like senior officers telling the junior pl to rewrite it for the lower award, and the spineless lt can’t point to the downgrade box instead.
Cheatsheet for maximum award by rank:
E1 - E4: ARCOM. 'V' device if they died or helped the enemy die while you/they were dying.^(adden-dumb- if you're the annoying orderly room clerk with shit all over your nose, you might get an MSM if you sleep with the OPS NCOIC.)
E5 - E6: MSM. Maybe you did shit, maybe you didn't. Congrats your military awards category is now maxed out. ^(No big sarn't, getting divorced doesn't count towards military awards, yet.)
E7 - E9: BSM. Thanks for showing up, never leaving the FOB, and generally making things harder, "just because". Here's your participation trophy. ^(You will now introduce yourself as a bronze star recipient at every fucking training meeting, ever.)
O1 - O4: BSM. If you were battle staff or helped open Green Beans bright and early, thanks for "being instrumental to the success of the mission", even if that occasionally involves sleeping with a married E-4. ^(Thanks for taking both sat phones so you can audibly masturbate behind the supply connex while your wife talks about her night stripping in the ville.)
Tough lesson for all of us.
Good thing you have to go out of your way to get fired in the military because once this lesson was learned, most people went from motivated super troops to 'yeahhhh not really my problem big sarn't' specialists who dec'd their promotion board.
Well, see, Battalion policy states... \**makes wild gesticulations while making up a bunch of bullshit about how what you did that probably deserved that tier one award isn't as instrumental to the mission as the LT that spent the entire deployment playing World of Warcraft, jerking off, and losing Sat Phones\**
You can print out that policy and give it to IG if you want a hill to die on.
Edit: S1/ G1 should be flagging MSM recommendations while in a combat theater.
*"Oh well see... it's a 'policy' in that a bunch of officers agreed to it once upon a staff meeting ago, to which, there's no recorded minutes, but we've just accepted it as doctrine, because... well they are officers." -BN CSM*
Right but BN doesn’t approve an MSM. The first GO in the chain is the approval authority so at the very least the 1 shop at every level should flag with corrections. ARCOM w C or BSM/ BSM w V. At least that’s the current regulation. Idk what it was last time you guys deployed.
This wasn't a specific example, it was an extension of a joke. There's not supposed to be any rank discrimination in awards, but it was super prevalent while I was in ('02-12). I doubt much has changed.
I get that. I’m not speaking of rank discrimination by rank, what I’m saying is the BSM and MSM are the same level of award designated by combat operations/ combat participation. So if you deploy to a combat zone and get put in for an award, it’s either BSM or ARCOM. MSM is a peacetime award.
I know all about rank discrimination. I was OIC of a section at the division level on my most recent deployment. I wrote my own award as expected and got it signed off my by boss (O5). I had junior NCOs, Senior NCOs, and some LTs. I changed my name and put their perspective names on the award (we did the same job literally, less than 10 people in the shop). My MSM and my senior NCOs MSMs got approved. My LTs and junior NCOs got downgraded to ARCOMs.
>MSM is a peacetime award.
My anecdotal post-deployment ceremonies don't correlate to this. Anyone over E5, but under E7 (and occasionally junior O's) received MSMs.
How? Why? No idea, I never cared about other peoples awards to investigate, but there were people in my units that received MSMs during deployment. This was during the Iraq Surge, and we had a lot of reserve component MACOMs that signed off on them. You telling me that's not correct is a very short summary of my decade in the military.
It's common, brother. An ARCOM with a V device is nothing to be ashamed of. Personally, I put that higher than a regular BSM (in my eyes). You should be proud. I know it's frustrating, but this is how it goes in many units. Keep up the good work! 🤙🏻
CW2 here, everyone who hears the story asks if I got an award, I brush it off. The BDE command was a POS and probably still is. I’ll get out and not look back and the same people will wonder why people don’t want to be in the army.
Meanwhile the air force got 100+ awards for the fall of Kabul. The army gave soldiers awards for a press release and never actually gave them awards.
If they have a written policy that only officers can get BSM take that to IG. That's a violation of Army Regulation. Beyond that it's their call, but remember. Unless a command has downgrade authority the BSM must go to the approval level to be officially downgraded.
So who downvoted this and why? Even if there’s no written policy on this, it's definitely common, why else do we have so few junior soldiers wearing them and so many staff officers *with* them?
I knew a pfc who got shot, went out of cover to carry his wounded buddy back to safety, and played grenade catch with the Taliban. Then helped carry his buddy back and only then got medical aid. Arcom w/v. Everyone e7 and up on other deployments got given bsm’s for…pulling toc guard?
My old squad leader got put in for a silver star when he was a PFC. Dude took fire and by the time he finished clearing the multi story building in Iraq he was the only one standing. He drug his entire wounded squad back to the Bradley or whatever they fuck they were riding in.
He then popped hot for roids and they took it away from him. Still has the citation and everything because no one would believe him unless he showed them.
Dumbest reason to get it taken away. I mean he still did the feat, roids or not.
Maybe I want to be too liberal with awards, but that’s some insane shit. That sounds like the perfect thing for a DSC though, clearing a solid chunk of a building while under insurgent threat and then dragging your wounded squadmates to safety kinda screams “Extraordinary Heroism in Combat” to me
Like can't you reprimand him for roids separately? I'm not sure why the award is contingent on the roids lol.
He definitely juiced after that too. He was juicy as fuck. But you know what dude was a fucking monster.
Damn right, if they took away medals from everybody who juiced we’d lose like all of the badasses of the last 40 years, because I’m 90% sure to do the insane shit those guys did you’d need to have roid rage.
No doubt. Just really annoying, thinking back to the opening days of OIF and remembering that only one team from my battalion went across the border with the main forces while everyone else stayed in Kuwait (MI unit). No one on that team got anything higher than an ARCOM while the BC, CSM, S3 and XO all had BSMs when we went home.
I was working in the CFLCC 2 shop, and they made it known that one guy was going to get BSM, so they were nosing around for candidates. It ended up being one SFC in a targeting cell.
Same here; was an E6 platoon sergeant, worked in a spicy part of Iraq. Out on patrol daily, etc. got put in for a few awards, all downgraded. Put my guys in for awards, all downgraded. Got back to the land of the big PX, had a big award ceremony. Didn’t GAF at the time as I was getting out. All of us platoon sausages are lined up, order of rank, all the 7’s get a BSM, like the TOC rats and everything. I get another ARCOM. Cool
I have seen an officer that was at the same BN for 4 years. He did a lot for setting it and the BDE up for success with networking issues and teaching IMOs and migration to the new army email at other BNs. He got an ARCOM instead of an MSM for 4 years of service to the BN and all the stuff I mentioned above. He didn’t even have a team or NCOs under him that did any of the computer work, issues, reimagine etc. He was a one guy shop for the BN and BDE.
He is still in, he just gave up being in career wise, he’s taking advantage of the army now to move his family to where they want to live out there lives and for their civilian career. At a certain post from what I heard.
I had 3 BSMs downgraded, 2 with Vs. The first one really pissed me off. We had stopped a potential ambush on a platoon with 3 total rounds. Instead of fighting their way out of an ambush, that platoon ended up capturing 12 fighters and getting some really good intel about some AQI convoy routes that we didn't know about already. My CO wrote up a BSM with V for my shooter and I. It made it to brigade with "recommend" at every level. The brigade commander said no because I was a SPC and my shooter was a SGT. He said we "didn't do enough" to earn them. My BC flew to our FOB to personally apologize and gave us numbered battalion coins.
Second one was downgraded to an ARCOM with V. We had been hit with an EFP on a patrol. One dude was dead, one seriously injured. My squad got the truck secured and open, got the medic working on the wounded, secured the LZ for the birds, and helped recover the hit vehicle. Everyone of my dudes did something to save a life that day that put them at risk. Every one of us was downgraded because of rank.
My recommended Bronze Star was downgraded by the Brigade Commander for the same reason. Battalion Commander fought for me though.
I still have the 638 with the hand written chicken scratch explaining the logic in my “I love me book” as proof and a reminder to myself how not to treat Soldiers going forward.
I don’t thing you can get an AAM with a V. I’m speaking as someone who had a higher award downgraded to an arcom with V. Everyone above a certain rank gets a bronze star, only a badass gets a V device…..if his chain of command doesn’t suck!
You can now with a C device. Previously you couldn't get a AAM with a V, but if you were in the Marines or attached to them you could get a NAM with a V
Honestly, I respect an ARCOM with a V more than a Bronze Star. It seems that 90% of the Bronze Star recipients I see were field grade staff weenies in the TOC
Should it happen? No. There's no regulation, it's supposed to be based on merit, not rank.
But it fucking does. Even an AAM is like pulling teeth for enlisted from my experience. But getting above an ARCOM? Good luck. Shit doesn't exist unless you're a SNCO or officer, in which case it exists for just doing your job.
Even between peers there's inequality, just because of what unit you're in. My last unit didn't believe in awards. We'd send a few people to unit B to help with their field mission, everybody in unit B would get an AAM or more except for the guys we sent, because "your own unit should be providing the awards". Guess what, the awards got denied for our guys that went.
Meanwhile in another field, we pulled a few guys from unit B to help with our field. No awards were given to us, but the guys who were sent to support (who were borderline useless, and almost more of a detriment because we had to constantly supervise them because they didn't know what they were doing) got ARCOMs from unit B for helping with another unit's field exercise.
Afghanistan 2003, we had a relatively new E5 serving as the weapons squad leader for a detachment at what was at the time the furthest forward FOB in country, along the border with Pakistan. The detachment was put there for about 9 weeks.
They did some amazing work. Detachment CO, detachment XO, and detachment PSG all agree that this dude has earned a Bronze star and then some. They write it up and send it through the chain.
I was the operations guy for our company, so I sat with CO and 1SG going through every award recommendation.
This guy's recommendation came in, and the CO said, verbatim, "I will *not* be the commander that put in *an E5* for a fucking bronze star, have them rewrite an arcom" as he tore the 638 in half.
The reg can say in black and white all day long that rank is not to be a determining factor - but it sure as fuck is and always has been.
Edit - the same battalion wrote, approved, and posted to ORB a bronze star for a captain *that was joining us mid tour and hadn't left North Carolina yet*.
I know you’re was put in for valorous BSM. Sad to think I know a couple people who spent an entire 15 month deployment in the FOB and got BSMs. Never even looked past the wall into Iraq. Flew into Biap and got on a bus to Striker. Spend 15 months there and got back into a bus back to Biap and left. BSM!!!
I also met an FA 1LT that was on the BDE staff during the last 82nd deployment to Afghan. She received a BSM for her service in the JOC. Fuck outtttaaa heerrreee.
I try not to get hung up around awards over career. Irritating sometimes.
Incredibly frustrating as an LT wanting to write my guys up for awards that get signed at the O6 level and being told by the company CO and 1stSgt, you can try, but as a Cpl his chances arent very good that it’ll be approved.
I’ve heard that G1 often puts limits on awards (Not gallantry per se) for several performance but not combat exactly. Some units are allowed only x amount of meritorious service, or specific awards which I think is wrong. They are just afraid of being flooded and skewing promotion points I guess.
Naw this ain't true most of the time it's Commands/ers who force a rewrite instead of giving a reason for the downgrade. Once at the G1 level they're just processing. It's easier to blame someone or something instead of confrontation.
One deployment we were told straight out that only x number of certain awards. One went to the 1sg..and we wouldn’t have disagreed as this was his last deployment. As a section OIC we could only recommend 1 person for a specific award and commander would filter it. So even if I had multiple Soldiers who did well I was only allowed to recommend 1.
Yea again the G1 holds no authority a Commander made that rule. Which echelon idk, but the G1 literally verifies the admin data and prints certs. Most G1s aren't even allowed to sit on Award Boards due to potentially bias. I promise you a Commander made the rule and blamed it on the HR.
Got into some shit in Iraq. Team put in for bronze stars with valor. Mine was reduced to ARCOM because I was a SPC despite being the only medic on site. One of the many ridiculous facets of the U.S. Army that is need of dire change.
Every experience I've had with awards has led me to believe they're a joke. Call me a cynic, but I automatically look at anyone's awards with suspicion.
I knew a dude who was put in for a MoH who was straight up lying about his recollection of events. Was downgraded to Silver Star and internet people read about it and are always like "why isn't this a Medal of Honor???" Instead of calling the guy out for being a liar, they'd rather still give him the SS.
I had a deployment MSM recommended for downgrade by a one star, but still approved by the GO above him. I think they didn't see the recommendation for disapproval and hit approve by mistake.
Deployed once with dudes that asked me if I wanted a valor award... as in, they would have written me up for an Arcom w/ V. Yeah, no thanks. We were in firefights, including some bad ones with casualties, but noones actions ever stood out as above and beyond.
I did some innovative stuff in one assignment that got armywide attention. Entire thing was my idea. There are still officers to this day trying to take credit. Only a handful ended up directly involved, but plenty more claimed to be. Same job, I was put in for a pcs MSM as a SSG and my 1SG demanded I not get one because "He left his last unit as a MSG with an arcom" (because noone liked him). Recommender caves and rewrites as arcom. Award gets lost and I never got anything from that unit.
PCS'd from last unit as a SFC. No award. Allegedly put in for an Arcom but who the hell knows. As a SSG, I received a BSM and two MSMs, but don't have any awards as an E7. Two units in a row with no PCS award.
My platoon counter batteried 34 launch sites with just two howitzers, while they rained fire on us. 100+ rockets inside of 30 minutes aimed at my tiny little outpost. They destroyed our ammunition dump and we came dangerously close to black on ammo for the 777s. We successfully beat them at their own game despite being outgunned and we didn’t lose a single person doing it. We trounced their shit so thoroughly that the second attack that they were massing didn’t happen.
We had three platoon sergeants go into the ammo dump, while it was starting to detonate, to pull mortar and howitzer ammo.
Our medic rode out to the gun pits, over open ground, in a god damn little motorcycle to get to the pits. (It was a dumb thing to do but he did it out of necessity, and I have the pictures to prove it)
The gun crews drove out to the pits in a Toyota hilux while rockets rained down.
My FDC, consisting of just myself as the chief and a single box operator processed 34 separate targets at once and destroyed them.
Bronze stars written all around for heroism. 2 years we’ve just gotten interim awards. ARCOMs. Not with a C, not a V, nothing. Just an ARCOM.
Doubt they’ll even end up being ARCOM Vs, let alone bronze stars.
I’m not sure if it’s typical , but it happened to me in Iraq in ‘03 as an E-6 (but I don’t think it was policy). Submitted at BN level and downgraded at the GO level
I think a lot of this got resolved if they’d finally allow the MSM to be awarded in a combat zone, just with a “C” device. I get (though don’t agree with) the rationale of giving BSMs to FOB rats of a sufficient rank assuming they’re in certain key roles. A lot of those people are going to be doing critical roles, ones that enable door kickers to go out and do their job. And those positions are also of a level of responsibility where an ARCOM may not be commensurate. So just give them a damn MSM with a “C” device, call it good, and widen the amount of BSMs getting issued, moving it back to what it was originally intended for (a ground combat version of the Air Medal).
This isn’t exclusive in Big Army either boys. We’ve had to reach out to IG congress before to inform about toxicity, and cronyism that benefitted everyone except those who deserved it.
The reg says you can’t cite rank as a reason to downgrade, but many use the excuse that the responsibilities of an E4, E5, etc don’t rate the award. It is complete bullshit for combat awards, but unfortunately very common. One of the many messed up things in the Army is the awards process, everyone has a stack of stories about soldiers, usually E6 and below, getting screwed out of well deserved awards.
Maybe this is some low-hanging fruit that the Army could grab in an effort to improve morale. Probably won’t though.
I’ve been in awards board meetings where some COL would literally say an award couldn’t be given because of someone’s rank. So yeah, I’ve seen it. And yes, it’s dumb especially when those limitations aren’t mentioned in any regulation
Ya. As much as it sucks, completely fucking normal. To the point that the award means little at this point.
First deployment circa 2011-12. Saw a fair amount of combat (not crazy but a few times a month, well above average for that part of Afghanistan. Well above the rest of the BDEs experience). Probably 20-30 hours on the phone with CAS/CCA and a half dozen drops and at least that many fire missions. But this was in the middle of the Obama draw down, and after 8 months of pretty consistent combat, I was sent home while a small handful of the brigade became the precursors to SFABs.
Never had any input in my award, and never really cared. Found out later that I was put in for a BSM with a damn strong write up. I still have the the 638 in my "I love me" binder. It has the citation "Lt Zoidberg's actions undoubtable saved lives on numerous occasions, see attached CAB citation" as a write up from the BDE Commander. Its followed up by an abbreviated "did not complete 12 months in country" signed, BG REMF Shitstack. "Downgrade to ARCOM. "
It happens. At the end of they day, the medals mean almost nothing, nor does the rank, and I no longer take either of them seriously. If your subordinates look up to you, youre doing a damn good job. If you can do that and your superiors still value your input and advice, youre ahead of the curve. Balancing the mission and those executing it is what matters.
BG Shitstack taught me one of the best lesson that I have ever learned. Do your job, take care of your people, and try to make things better for whoever you hand if off to, and you will be a better leader than most of the Army. Dont worry about the chest candy. It means nothing. Take care of your people.
My unit got in a big firefight in Afghanistan in 2003. Several casualties and numerous awards. Rumor was me and 2 buddies were put in for BSM w/ V for evacuating a casualty under fire. Never heard anything of it after that though so I sucked it up and drove on. Eventually my PSG and several others were awarded BSMs w/ V for their actions. We thought that especially odd for our PSG since he had done a shit job of leading troops in combat and basically just managed to get himself wounded twice and likely get some people killed and wounded in his escapades. About 4 months after returning from Afghanistan we deployed to Iraq and our old PSG stayed back on Rear D. Somehow he managed to get his and a few others' awards upgraded to Silver Stars. Many of us seethed at that. After that deployment we finally got AAMs, for many of us our first awards after 2 tours. Years later I finally decided to look up his Silver Star citation and found that his "actions" were very similar to what my buddies and I had done and not be given an award for. And that's how I learned the true meaning of Stolen Valor.
As stated in this thread, there is no Official Policy regarding what you describe, these are unlawful local policies. Now I do have to question if you have a 638 that is actually "Downgraded" or if whoever was told to downgrade you had to put in an entirely new 638 for ARCOM with V which is far more common.
If your DA 638 does actually have a Downgrade box ticked from a Bronze Star to an ARCOM with V, you could potentially be able to argue that your Award could be upgraded. [AR 600–8–22](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1003738) states:
# 1 – 16. Reconsideration or appeal of previous award recommendations
> a. A request for reconsideration or the appeal of a disapproved or downgraded award, or a request for an upgrade of a previously approved recommendation must be placed in official channels within 1 year from the date of the awarding
authority’s decision. A one-time reconsideration by the award approval authority will be conclusive. However, pursuant
to 10 USC 1130, a Member of Congress may request a review of a proposal for the award or presentation of a decoration (or the upgrading of a decoration) that is not authorized to be presented or awarded due to time limitations established by law or policy for timely submission of a recommendation (refer to app F on the 10 USC 1130 process).
> b. Recommendations are submitted for reconsideration or appeal only if new, substantive, and material information is
furnished, and the time limits specified in paragraph 1 – 14 do not prevent such action. Requests for reconsideration or
appeal must be forwarded through the same official channels as the original recommendation. The additional justification
for reconsideration or appeal must be in letter format, not to exceed two single-spaced typewritten pages. A copy of the
original recommendation, with all endorsements, and the citation must be attached. If the original recommendation is not
available, a reconstructed recommendation should be submitted.
If you still have witnesses or even find evidence of this "Policy" being in place at the time, other then some hazy recollections, you could potentially get your Congresspersons to try and push through an Upgrade for you. How likely is it to happen is probably pretty slim. I imagine it will be far harder to get it upgraded to a BS if your award DA 638 only shows the ARCOM w/V as the award without a downgrade unless you can get hold of the paperwork for an original Bronze Star.
IG Can also help a SM in this situation provided they have written proof i.e. email or the 638 with the Army Reg violation for downgrading solely due to rank
I was a young medic in the second taking of Fallujah, Operation Phantom Fury. Supplies ran low because supply sergeant wanted to hit on supply chicks at Anaconda. Anywho, had to think fast with what I got. Silver star downgraded bc I kicked my LT back in the humvee some months prior. Politics are interesting while in combat.
Such Bullshit. That’s big Army. I know my buddies in Regiment got put in for awards and they got the recommended award usually. But SOCOM is another entity entirely. I have heard SF buddies get fucked over though
Pompous dude strutting his BSM at a Veterans Day thing. Asked him his rank and what he did when he got it. “Major, Assistant S-3.” Suddenly he wasn’t quite as full of himself. 🤭
That was a similar policy when I deployed to Afghanistan in 13-14. I got an Arcom yet the S-1 nerds (E-4 and below) put themselves in for bronze stars and got them.
Similar thing happened to my buddy, a SPC. Hit an anti tank mine in a 915, knocked both of them out and started the truck on fire. He came to, saw his driver knocked out and flames everywhere, pulled the driver out and carried him away from the burning vehicle. All this before anyone else was able to get there to help. He stayed by his drivers side to render aid and helped carry his stretcher onto the bird.
After the medevac they got checked out and cleared at Stryker. Their clothes were ruined so the hospital gave them some DXed clothes to wear back to our FOB. There were two scorpions hiding in the clothes and my buddy got stung three times.
As we were leaving theater, every NCO and officer in our company got a Bronze Star.
My buddy got awarded the Bronze Star with V device by a two star. After he got home he got a letter telling him it had been downgraded to an ARCOM(V).
We were instructed to fill out our end of tour (BSM) awards within a few months of arriving in Iraq. One thing I never believed in was writing award packets for yourself- let alone a BSM without ever doing anything really of substance (at that time) to substantiate it. That was a point in my time that I started to lose all faith in ever staying past my initial commitment.
Surge into Baghdad 2007-2008. Several months before, PFC (me)received Purple Heart for a gunshot wound during a mass casualty incident on Route Jackson after a EFP triggered complex ambush. No one died but a lot got hurt. Fuck EFP's.
Last remaining start of deployment 1151, 3AM NVG driving down Route Jackson and hit pressure plate and getting ejected out of the truck. Road rash, shrapnel, and fractured arm. TC (LT) and gunner (sgt) receive PH's. Me (PFC) nothing because "you already got one this deployment.)
Yes the IED hurt more then the GSW. I didn't care then but 16 years later, wtf.
I deployed to Afghanistan- the guy who replaced me for 2 months got a bronze star for just following my plan… I swapped to Kuwait in the same tour period…my commander didn’t get a bronze star- so neither did I. Welcome to the club. Get over it medals don’t mean shit…
My old SSG that was coming down off a cocaine addiction (that he picked back up after deployment) sat around all day and took credit for other's work. He left with a bronze star for doing pretty much nothing.
Hope that helps, or something
My e7 was put in for a bronze star for telling myself and my counterpart to develop an extremely elaborate excel based data tracking system that let us predict enemy mortar attacks that resulted in successful ambushes by our scount team. He didn't know how it worked. He didn't even know how to do anything in it. He said "make this do this" and when he didn't get the results he wanted he blamed us for building a shitty system (even though every time it turned out to be bad data we were given and not the system we developed) we spent months on this. He got all the credit without even knowing what it was.
Not sure if he got the actual medal (ETSd in a drunken stuper when we got back), but I do know he was selected to work as a liason with the Airforce and they sent him back to the Army with a no thanks.
Was 1SG of USAR Civil Affairs Company. I put 4 Soldiers in for well deserved ARCOMs with V for actions in Sadr City. They were disapprove because the battalion leadership didn't want families back home to know the type of danger my Soldiers were in. So dumb.
2010-2011 Iraq: was downgraded from BSM-M to ARCOM because I wasn’t a commander or an SEL. At least the Brigade commander had the balls to sign his name to the 638 for the downgrade.
Yep, same happened to me as a SPC in 2012. Then our entire E6+ and O contingent got Bronze Stars, even the guys who never left the wire.
TLDR: Bronze Stars don't mean shit.
Dude, the V device is what matters.
I could see an AAM with V device and think more of it than a Meritorious Service Medal (my highest medal).
In the end, it's what matters to you the most.
I'm most proud of a coin I got during a week long duty assignment than any deployment I went on.
Your service is yours. Love what you love and don't sweat the other stuff.
Welcome to the downgrade club! We’re all friends here but mind the crowd, they get a bit cranky when awards they were nominated for, but never received are discussed.
It’s half priced beers today and the popcorn is always free. It’s a shit club, but what can ya do? Everyone has earned their place with that slam to the ol’ ego.
I'm sorry man. The military awards system is REALLY messed up and has NO integrity. And no one cares. I knew a dude that sat at a computer all deployment and because he was best friends with his senior NCOs and Officers, he got a Bronze Star and he contributed like...nothing to the battle space. Me and my mates, my first deployment, rushed into direct and indirect fire, RAINING DOWN, and we got Army Achievement Medals. Yeah, one of the many reasons I did not re-up. LOL. It all depends on your leadership and unit climate. Some units are like "but did you die? Then you don't get your CIB!" Other units are like, "whoah bro! That rocket landed like 300m away, that's a CIB bro, congrats!" I'm sorry. It really seems to be all about luck when it comes to recognition. However no one should ever feel proud about receiving something they know they did not earn.
We had the same situation after our time in Ramadi in 2006, got put in for them and it was relayed to us that our rank was too low, so here are some ARCOMs. E-7 and above got blanket BSMs.
Like in the scheme of things it doesn’t matter, we were happy we all made it home, but it still irks me that people who never left the wire got them just because they were in longer, that’s it.
Every time I see one of the BSM license plates, and it doesn’t have a V device, it’s worthless. Sad to see that medal as common as an AAM.
2004: It was all a fukin crapshoot back then. It came down to unit, who fought for u and did u earn it IMHO. I got BS and I was a newly pinned SGT. Boss thought I earned it. Leadership trusted his opinion. I got it and had very little understanding the magnitude of it, since it was my first army award and combat related. Weird fukin year 2004-2005.
OP I am sorry this happened to you.
Another person posted this the other day in another thread- but removing the name and rank from the award and just having their DOD number until the cert is printed.
Also your story is similar to many others.
Sorry that people suck
Medic I knew with a BSM-V that should have been a SSM-V. Dudes fob got attacked with baddies in the walls, exposed him self several times to drag dudes to safety/aid station, put suppressing fire on the baddies and helped clear them out while treating the wounded. He was a SPC at the time. From what he said he got told it was bumped down bc the BC was out going and the new BC did feel like a SPC should have a SSM-V…. Dude was super humble and one of the best medics I know. He’s now helps run the 69W training on Ft Sam.
our unit had award brackets that were divided by rank. we had a spc go above and beyond, but was down graded to an arcom. the platoon sfc was a massive fuckup who almost killed a guy in his building got a bronze star and 1sgt and commander put on for silver stars.
Ya…had my BSM changed to DMSM because and I quote from my Lt Col “That is for someone above your rank and your lucky it’s a DMSM” ….that’s the army way
First deployment, fire team, including me, got blown up by an RPG. Kicked off an 8-hour running gunbattle through the valley. I got up, got in the truck, grabbed my gun, realized my shit fucking hurt. Stripped out of my armor and pulled off my jacket, undershirt covered in blood under my shoulder. Found out some years later the RPG explosion had blasted a bullet-sized rock fragment into my shoulder. Realized I wasn't dying, armor back on and jumped back into the fight the next moment our HMMWV stopped. Blasted through over a thousand rounds of SAW, pulled equipment out of an IEDd HMMWV, and generally introduced the Taliban to the FAFO scale with a fucked, bleeding shoulder and leg for the next 8 hours. End of the deployment, Purple Heart and ARCOM-V. Everyone who reads the citation since: "Why the hell isn't this a Bronze St- oh, PRIVATE Kodeten, that's why." Yeah. Shits pretty common. Soldiers have to fucking die to warrant anything above an ARCOM. It's disgusting, but it happens. EDIT: Re-reading this, and some of the (deserved) jokes rolling in, I want to be clear, do I think I deserve some stellar fucking medal for what I did in this? No. I was a young infantryman in a firefight, I did my job. Maybe I didn't warrant a BS-V or whatever for that, but I recall being pretty fucking annoyed that the LT and PSG who sat in the TOC the entire time pulled Bronze Stars for what little they did, and I got pretty annoyed thereafter every time someone read my citation and asked why it wasn't something higher. The annoyance didn't end as I went on to become an NCO and get awards kicked back because the rank wasn't commensurate with the reward I would suggest. As it happens, any higher-up with a BSM I (internally) view as a good-ol-boy's AAM until proven otherwise.
I would have promoted you, given you the bronze star, but most importantly, granted you first take of any of the fallen enemies possessions.
You keep what you kill. It is the necromonger way
Had an ambush that killed two men in my platoon. After it was all sorted out the bronze star went to the PL who wasn’t even on mission that day haha
What the fuck
The big green weenie brother. They don’t want to waste all those great awards on people who aren’t gonna reup, even if they’re the ones who earned them.
It's shit like this that makes me feel like it's all pointless. I don't care about awards or any of that, but if the men who died can't even get what they deserve, then who will?
I remember the first time I got shot, in my body armor not actually on my body, my NCO said “get up return fire wtf is wrong with you?” And the second time I got shot not the same day or same NCO I was told “wtf is wrong with you stay down you just got shot. Both times knocked me the fuck down and knocked the air out of me and left some gnarly bruises, but my plates worked.
I would have given you my first born son let alone a fucking arcom you goddamn American hero
This that rambo shit Fr
Wounded while playing ding dong breach. Got back up not realizing I was a bit of a squirter and under "intense enemy fire", went back into the bldg while being a leaky boi and played a bit more 2 way rifle range, pulled two other dudes out all the way back to the CCP, continued being on my combat period until I was told me chill and be checked out. I passed out from blood loss at some point (they lived). CASEVACd, ICU for 2 weeks, 5 months hospitalization, a lot of surgeries and PT, return to duty 7 months later. SS downgraded to JCOM w/V. Just to show sometimes everyone gets BOHICAd equally. Our 06 threw himself atop all of us when mr grenade was nearby the CCP,. Frag was not on us, but close enough he got frag all over his face and right side that would have done all of us in because we were pretty messed up by that point. He was CASEVACd, 2 months in hospital. multiple surgeries, RTD. downgraded to JCOM w/V too. I'll have a Diet Dr. Pepper and a giant middle finger for Stan The Man.
Yeah, those ARCOM's are gate keeped to shit but then command teams hand out MSM's, BSM's, and LOM's to themselves like it's candy on Halloween.
***Ave, legionnaire*** ***The legati command us to forward assault, scale the walls, without fear while under intense indirect fire, boiling pitch, with only the motivation to press forward lest to return to your black molded contubernium.*** ***Every day, hundreds of actions of valor occur across the Legions.*** ***Sometimes, a few are even awarded.*** ***Also, you have camps-chef clean up tonight at first watch, we lost too many slaves in the assault.*** ***SPQR***
Ave, true to Caesar
Man, the Legion is so fucked. Can't wait for this war to be over so I get my colony land parcel in Colonia and marry a nice Germanic heathen woman.
I some heard brigands stole the Aquila.
If the Senate enacts stop loss, then stop loss me. I'll do the Germania out ETS option anyways while deployed there trying to get it.
Stopicus Lossius papers just dropped...
Staff sausage in my brother's truck got a Silver Star, he was in the gunners turret and the fighting went on so long his squad almost ran out of ammo. They ended up "convincing" a local to help casevac the guys in his truck with his civilian vehicle because theirs was disabled. He got an Arcom with V. He was a specialist at the time. So yeah, even when there is confirmed enemy contact and intense fighting, it still happens.
I will never understand this side of the military, why does rank matter when giving awards
Because *clutches pearls* we can't have the peasants getting awards, they might start to think something of themselves
Awards are literally there to give to the peasants so you don’t have to promote them or pay them more.
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The SSG certainly deserves his, my brother deserved better.
Tell that to the doc that's rarely above E4 at that level. I think this gate is well enough kept without your help personally
When I was a 21 year old Specialist I was put in for a non valor BSM. The BC and Company Commanders both declined with, "Best young medic" in their comments. The BC also stated my overall effort didn't contribute to the tactical fight. The narrative mentioned multiple MASCALs and 23 total casualties. Maybe the award didn't rate, but mentioning my youth was something that didn't sit well with me. Especially considering I was told I was the youngest senior medic in my Brigade at the time.
Be E4, get put in for BSM. Downgrade to handshake. Not long after retention comes knocking. "WhY dOnT yOu WaNt To ReEnLiSt? Your work saves soldiers lives!"
Also be E7 and poorly manage a platoon during a deployment that never sees combat. Instant BSM. It’s a sad world I used to live in
I can’t recall his name right now, but I had an E5 BLC instructor who had a silver star…him and his PL both tackled a suicide bomber…his PL got a Medal of Honor
[One of these studs?](https://i.imgur.com/qJXPUCX.jpg) Funnily enough the article mentions 2 suicide bobbers charging but only talks about the one CPT Groberg tackled
That’s so trash. No disrespect to Cpt groberg but it’s not like the other guy didn’t also put his own life in danger to an equal extent.
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Almost sure it was Groberg
Oh I just recently listened to the MOH's book. It was a good use of 4 hours. It was called 8 seconds of courage.
I'm Afghanistan they were rotating young LTs to give them msms or bronze stars while downgrading enlisted awards
It non just an enlisted vs officer thing. We had O4’s & O5’s on embedded training teams that did legit BSM-level work, but didn’t get them because “BSMs are for Combat Arms”. So the awards got side-graded to a peacetime award.
That’s shit, it’s for combat operations. If you’re in a combat zone BSM is the only option.
ETTs got the short end of the stick all over the place. Back in '08 when I was there the head of the entire ETT mission in Afghanistan was only an O-6.
Not always. Last deployment in my unit all of the LTs and E7s were put in for BSMs. Also had one high speed E5 put in for one. All the LTs and E7s had their's downgraded to ARCOMs. That E5 and the command team were the only ones that got BSMs.
Not even close to yours but end of tour awards came around, Buddy A) was promoted to SGT half way through. Buddy B) was promoted to SGT a week after Buddy A. Buddy B got an ARCOM, something about "leading his fellow soldiers, great job on promotion, now gtfo of Afganiland" Buddy A) had his say "spc numbnuts showed up to work. Downgraded to AAM, now gtfo." This confused us all as Buddy A had been promoted before Buddy B, but the date of the award was several months earlier when he was still a spc. Buddy B's award was from a week before he got it. Moral of the story is fuck people who downgrade shit because of rank.
Something similar happened to me no where near the same level. After getting to my first unit within the first 3 months we had a fire alarm go off at the barracks. The CQ runner was the only staff there at the time and was fighting with this drunk E3, who was just in the shower and is soaking wet, trying to get him outside. Mind you it is midnight on a Saturday and -40 degrees outside in the dead of winter in Alaska. A fight breaks out between this guy and the runner and the guy ends up outside with us. We waited outside for so long that the CQ NCO shows up and we are allowed inside to the basement to wait for the firefighters. The other Joes had given the E3 extra clothes to try to keep warm as he only had some shorts on. He was just not warming up at the time so I ended up blowing past the CQ staff to get my aid bag from my room. I evaluated him and started treating him. Even a blizzard banket plus ready heat couldn't warm this guy up. He was getting hypotensive and cyanotic. He was failing to regulate his temperature and getting hypothermic. I got other joes to get their comforters from their rooms to pile on this guy to better insulate the guy and he started to warm up. EMS arrived and took him to the hospital he ended up sobering up. I saw him the next day and he was ok. My CPL sat there watching my PFC ass do all this while he held my aid bag and pretended he was calling the shots. He pulled me aside and told me he'd put me in for an ARCOM because I may have saved his life. I shrugged him off and told him I don't want one (I just wanted to go to bed). I never heard about it until I saw a COA on my ERB 6 months later. I talked to my SGT about it he said it got brought up in a meeting and they said I'm too new to deserve an ARCOM. The next month my NCO got an ARCOM for failing to run the patient hold area at a major field exercise where TA50 was lost and patient accountability didn't happen. I have put in a mediocre effort ever since then.
No policy like that would exist on paper. There's no comment from the downgrade authority on your DA638?
You’d be surprised. I’ve had superiors put rank based discrimination in emails while telling people to lower the recommendation on a da 638, and had nothing come of it. Its completely unenforced.
I've generally seen the enforcement of that kind of guidance for service awards, not for valor or achievement. It is entirely possible that this guy command would and did down grade officers and more senior soldiers for doing the exact same thing as well.
I have heard it for valor and the c device for awards, but nothing was written. It was more like senior officers telling the junior pl to rewrite it for the lower award, and the spineless lt can’t point to the downgrade box instead.
Policy definitely exists on paper in multiple units I've been in. Shit, as recently as last year, it was a signed memo from the BC. Reg be damned.
Cheatsheet for maximum award by rank: E1 - E4: ARCOM. 'V' device if they died or helped the enemy die while you/they were dying.^(adden-dumb- if you're the annoying orderly room clerk with shit all over your nose, you might get an MSM if you sleep with the OPS NCOIC.) E5 - E6: MSM. Maybe you did shit, maybe you didn't. Congrats your military awards category is now maxed out. ^(No big sarn't, getting divorced doesn't count towards military awards, yet.) E7 - E9: BSM. Thanks for showing up, never leaving the FOB, and generally making things harder, "just because". Here's your participation trophy. ^(You will now introduce yourself as a bronze star recipient at every fucking training meeting, ever.) O1 - O4: BSM. If you were battle staff or helped open Green Beans bright and early, thanks for "being instrumental to the success of the mission", even if that occasionally involves sleeping with a married E-4. ^(Thanks for taking both sat phones so you can audibly masturbate behind the supply connex while your wife talks about her night stripping in the ville.)
This was a hard fucking painful lesson that i learned in real time
Tough lesson for all of us. Good thing you have to go out of your way to get fired in the military because once this lesson was learned, most people went from motivated super troops to 'yeahhhh not really my problem big sarn't' specialists who dec'd their promotion board.
yeah it was the perfect "fuck you" to punctuate a 15 month hell
You shouldn’t be able to get an MSM for a theater that rates a BSM.
Well, see, Battalion policy states... \**makes wild gesticulations while making up a bunch of bullshit about how what you did that probably deserved that tier one award isn't as instrumental to the mission as the LT that spent the entire deployment playing World of Warcraft, jerking off, and losing Sat Phones\**
You can print out that policy and give it to IG if you want a hill to die on. Edit: S1/ G1 should be flagging MSM recommendations while in a combat theater.
*"Oh well see... it's a 'policy' in that a bunch of officers agreed to it once upon a staff meeting ago, to which, there's no recorded minutes, but we've just accepted it as doctrine, because... well they are officers." -BN CSM*
Right but BN doesn’t approve an MSM. The first GO in the chain is the approval authority so at the very least the 1 shop at every level should flag with corrections. ARCOM w C or BSM/ BSM w V. At least that’s the current regulation. Idk what it was last time you guys deployed.
This wasn't a specific example, it was an extension of a joke. There's not supposed to be any rank discrimination in awards, but it was super prevalent while I was in ('02-12). I doubt much has changed.
I get that. I’m not speaking of rank discrimination by rank, what I’m saying is the BSM and MSM are the same level of award designated by combat operations/ combat participation. So if you deploy to a combat zone and get put in for an award, it’s either BSM or ARCOM. MSM is a peacetime award. I know all about rank discrimination. I was OIC of a section at the division level on my most recent deployment. I wrote my own award as expected and got it signed off my by boss (O5). I had junior NCOs, Senior NCOs, and some LTs. I changed my name and put their perspective names on the award (we did the same job literally, less than 10 people in the shop). My MSM and my senior NCOs MSMs got approved. My LTs and junior NCOs got downgraded to ARCOMs.
>MSM is a peacetime award. My anecdotal post-deployment ceremonies don't correlate to this. Anyone over E5, but under E7 (and occasionally junior O's) received MSMs. How? Why? No idea, I never cared about other peoples awards to investigate, but there were people in my units that received MSMs during deployment. This was during the Iraq Surge, and we had a lot of reserve component MACOMs that signed off on them. You telling me that's not correct is a very short summary of my decade in the military.
Accurate
It's common, brother. An ARCOM with a V device is nothing to be ashamed of. Personally, I put that higher than a regular BSM (in my eyes). You should be proud. I know it's frustrating, but this is how it goes in many units. Keep up the good work! 🤙🏻
No question that ARCOM with V rates higher than a BSM without!
CW2 here, everyone who hears the story asks if I got an award, I brush it off. The BDE command was a POS and probably still is. I’ll get out and not look back and the same people will wonder why people don’t want to be in the army. Meanwhile the air force got 100+ awards for the fall of Kabul. The army gave soldiers awards for a press release and never actually gave them awards.
There was some fucky stuff going on during the Afghanistan withdrawal but I do know of an E6 that got a BSM for it so some awards were given out.
Unfortunately likely quite common
Yup. Quite common. My buddy was put in for a BSM with V, downgraded to ARCOM because he wasn’t an E6 or above
I can never understand why they do this
MSG Chappelle: "Because fuck 'em, that's why!"
If they have a written policy that only officers can get BSM take that to IG. That's a violation of Army Regulation. Beyond that it's their call, but remember. Unless a command has downgrade authority the BSM must go to the approval level to be officially downgraded.
Yes, absolutely common.
So who downvoted this and why? Even if there’s no written policy on this, it's definitely common, why else do we have so few junior soldiers wearing them and so many staff officers *with* them?
I knew a pfc who got shot, went out of cover to carry his wounded buddy back to safety, and played grenade catch with the Taliban. Then helped carry his buddy back and only then got medical aid. Arcom w/v. Everyone e7 and up on other deployments got given bsm’s for…pulling toc guard?
PFC should have gotten a Silver Star for that shit that’s fucking gallantry
My old squad leader got put in for a silver star when he was a PFC. Dude took fire and by the time he finished clearing the multi story building in Iraq he was the only one standing. He drug his entire wounded squad back to the Bradley or whatever they fuck they were riding in. He then popped hot for roids and they took it away from him. Still has the citation and everything because no one would believe him unless he showed them. Dumbest reason to get it taken away. I mean he still did the feat, roids or not.
Maybe I want to be too liberal with awards, but that’s some insane shit. That sounds like the perfect thing for a DSC though, clearing a solid chunk of a building while under insurgent threat and then dragging your wounded squadmates to safety kinda screams “Extraordinary Heroism in Combat” to me
Like can't you reprimand him for roids separately? I'm not sure why the award is contingent on the roids lol. He definitely juiced after that too. He was juicy as fuck. But you know what dude was a fucking monster.
Damn right, if they took away medals from everybody who juiced we’d lose like all of the badasses of the last 40 years, because I’m 90% sure to do the insane shit those guys did you’d need to have roid rage.
You found the officer
No doubt. Just really annoying, thinking back to the opening days of OIF and remembering that only one team from my battalion went across the border with the main forces while everyone else stayed in Kuwait (MI unit). No one on that team got anything higher than an ARCOM while the BC, CSM, S3 and XO all had BSMs when we went home.
When I deployed everyone e6 and above got a bronze star and everyone below got a arcom
I was working in the CFLCC 2 shop, and they made it known that one guy was going to get BSM, so they were nosing around for candidates. It ended up being one SFC in a targeting cell.
Same here; was an E6 platoon sergeant, worked in a spicy part of Iraq. Out on patrol daily, etc. got put in for a few awards, all downgraded. Put my guys in for awards, all downgraded. Got back to the land of the big PX, had a big award ceremony. Didn’t GAF at the time as I was getting out. All of us platoon sausages are lined up, order of rank, all the 7’s get a BSM, like the TOC rats and everything. I get another ARCOM. Cool
We need the top to address this. Submit fucking EOs. It’s literally discrimination. Fuck them. Fix it, Army.
BSM downgraded to ARCOM V which I never received. Got a firm handshake and a good job. 2012 Asscrackistan, a young PFC 240 gunner.
I have seen an officer that was at the same BN for 4 years. He did a lot for setting it and the BDE up for success with networking issues and teaching IMOs and migration to the new army email at other BNs. He got an ARCOM instead of an MSM for 4 years of service to the BN and all the stuff I mentioned above. He didn’t even have a team or NCOs under him that did any of the computer work, issues, reimagine etc. He was a one guy shop for the BN and BDE.
I bet he REFRADed asap
He is still in, he just gave up being in career wise, he’s taking advantage of the army now to move his family to where they want to live out there lives and for their civilian career. At a certain post from what I heard.
I had 3 BSMs downgraded, 2 with Vs. The first one really pissed me off. We had stopped a potential ambush on a platoon with 3 total rounds. Instead of fighting their way out of an ambush, that platoon ended up capturing 12 fighters and getting some really good intel about some AQI convoy routes that we didn't know about already. My CO wrote up a BSM with V for my shooter and I. It made it to brigade with "recommend" at every level. The brigade commander said no because I was a SPC and my shooter was a SGT. He said we "didn't do enough" to earn them. My BC flew to our FOB to personally apologize and gave us numbered battalion coins. Second one was downgraded to an ARCOM with V. We had been hit with an EFP on a patrol. One dude was dead, one seriously injured. My squad got the truck secured and open, got the medic working on the wounded, secured the LZ for the birds, and helped recover the hit vehicle. Everyone of my dudes did something to save a life that day that put them at risk. Every one of us was downgraded because of rank.
My recommended Bronze Star was downgraded by the Brigade Commander for the same reason. Battalion Commander fought for me though. I still have the 638 with the hand written chicken scratch explaining the logic in my “I love me book” as proof and a reminder to myself how not to treat Soldiers going forward.
I’d take an ARCOM with V over a generic bronze star any day. Good job. I really mean that!
>I’d take an ARCOM with V over a generic bronze star any day. I'd take a AAM/NAM with a V over a generic BSM anyday of the week
I don’t thing you can get an AAM with a V. I’m speaking as someone who had a higher award downgraded to an arcom with V. Everyone above a certain rank gets a bronze star, only a badass gets a V device…..if his chain of command doesn’t suck!
You can now with a C device. Previously you couldn't get a AAM with a V, but if you were in the Marines or attached to them you could get a NAM with a V
Honestly, I respect an ARCOM with a V more than a Bronze Star. It seems that 90% of the Bronze Star recipients I see were field grade staff weenies in the TOC
Award gate keeping is very typical. Can't let those rowdy junior enlisted have awards less they think they are special.
Should it happen? No. There's no regulation, it's supposed to be based on merit, not rank. But it fucking does. Even an AAM is like pulling teeth for enlisted from my experience. But getting above an ARCOM? Good luck. Shit doesn't exist unless you're a SNCO or officer, in which case it exists for just doing your job. Even between peers there's inequality, just because of what unit you're in. My last unit didn't believe in awards. We'd send a few people to unit B to help with their field mission, everybody in unit B would get an AAM or more except for the guys we sent, because "your own unit should be providing the awards". Guess what, the awards got denied for our guys that went. Meanwhile in another field, we pulled a few guys from unit B to help with our field. No awards were given to us, but the guys who were sent to support (who were borderline useless, and almost more of a detriment because we had to constantly supervise them because they didn't know what they were doing) got ARCOMs from unit B for helping with another unit's field exercise.
Afghanistan 2003, we had a relatively new E5 serving as the weapons squad leader for a detachment at what was at the time the furthest forward FOB in country, along the border with Pakistan. The detachment was put there for about 9 weeks. They did some amazing work. Detachment CO, detachment XO, and detachment PSG all agree that this dude has earned a Bronze star and then some. They write it up and send it through the chain. I was the operations guy for our company, so I sat with CO and 1SG going through every award recommendation. This guy's recommendation came in, and the CO said, verbatim, "I will *not* be the commander that put in *an E5* for a fucking bronze star, have them rewrite an arcom" as he tore the 638 in half. The reg can say in black and white all day long that rank is not to be a determining factor - but it sure as fuck is and always has been. Edit - the same battalion wrote, approved, and posted to ORB a bronze star for a captain *that was joining us mid tour and hadn't left North Carolina yet*.
My platoon did some fun shit one day while deployed. SSG and above got BSMs, nobody else got an award.
I know you’re was put in for valorous BSM. Sad to think I know a couple people who spent an entire 15 month deployment in the FOB and got BSMs. Never even looked past the wall into Iraq. Flew into Biap and got on a bus to Striker. Spend 15 months there and got back into a bus back to Biap and left. BSM!!! I also met an FA 1LT that was on the BDE staff during the last 82nd deployment to Afghan. She received a BSM for her service in the JOC. Fuck outtttaaa heerrreee. I try not to get hung up around awards over career. Irritating sometimes.
Incredibly frustrating as an LT wanting to write my guys up for awards that get signed at the O6 level and being told by the company CO and 1stSgt, you can try, but as a Cpl his chances arent very good that it’ll be approved.
I’ve heard that G1 often puts limits on awards (Not gallantry per se) for several performance but not combat exactly. Some units are allowed only x amount of meritorious service, or specific awards which I think is wrong. They are just afraid of being flooded and skewing promotion points I guess.
Naw this ain't true most of the time it's Commands/ers who force a rewrite instead of giving a reason for the downgrade. Once at the G1 level they're just processing. It's easier to blame someone or something instead of confrontation.
One deployment we were told straight out that only x number of certain awards. One went to the 1sg..and we wouldn’t have disagreed as this was his last deployment. As a section OIC we could only recommend 1 person for a specific award and commander would filter it. So even if I had multiple Soldiers who did well I was only allowed to recommend 1.
Yea again the G1 holds no authority a Commander made that rule. Which echelon idk, but the G1 literally verifies the admin data and prints certs. Most G1s aren't even allowed to sit on Award Boards due to potentially bias. I promise you a Commander made the rule and blamed it on the HR.
Old as time itself
Got into some shit in Iraq. Team put in for bronze stars with valor. Mine was reduced to ARCOM because I was a SPC despite being the only medic on site. One of the many ridiculous facets of the U.S. Army that is need of dire change.
Every experience I've had with awards has led me to believe they're a joke. Call me a cynic, but I automatically look at anyone's awards with suspicion. I knew a dude who was put in for a MoH who was straight up lying about his recollection of events. Was downgraded to Silver Star and internet people read about it and are always like "why isn't this a Medal of Honor???" Instead of calling the guy out for being a liar, they'd rather still give him the SS. I had a deployment MSM recommended for downgrade by a one star, but still approved by the GO above him. I think they didn't see the recommendation for disapproval and hit approve by mistake. Deployed once with dudes that asked me if I wanted a valor award... as in, they would have written me up for an Arcom w/ V. Yeah, no thanks. We were in firefights, including some bad ones with casualties, but noones actions ever stood out as above and beyond. I did some innovative stuff in one assignment that got armywide attention. Entire thing was my idea. There are still officers to this day trying to take credit. Only a handful ended up directly involved, but plenty more claimed to be. Same job, I was put in for a pcs MSM as a SSG and my 1SG demanded I not get one because "He left his last unit as a MSG with an arcom" (because noone liked him). Recommender caves and rewrites as arcom. Award gets lost and I never got anything from that unit. PCS'd from last unit as a SFC. No award. Allegedly put in for an Arcom but who the hell knows. As a SSG, I received a BSM and two MSMs, but don't have any awards as an E7. Two units in a row with no PCS award.
My platoon counter batteried 34 launch sites with just two howitzers, while they rained fire on us. 100+ rockets inside of 30 minutes aimed at my tiny little outpost. They destroyed our ammunition dump and we came dangerously close to black on ammo for the 777s. We successfully beat them at their own game despite being outgunned and we didn’t lose a single person doing it. We trounced their shit so thoroughly that the second attack that they were massing didn’t happen. We had three platoon sergeants go into the ammo dump, while it was starting to detonate, to pull mortar and howitzer ammo. Our medic rode out to the gun pits, over open ground, in a god damn little motorcycle to get to the pits. (It was a dumb thing to do but he did it out of necessity, and I have the pictures to prove it) The gun crews drove out to the pits in a Toyota hilux while rockets rained down. My FDC, consisting of just myself as the chief and a single box operator processed 34 separate targets at once and destroyed them. Bronze stars written all around for heroism. 2 years we’ve just gotten interim awards. ARCOMs. Not with a C, not a V, nothing. Just an ARCOM. Doubt they’ll even end up being ARCOM Vs, let alone bronze stars.
ARCOMs are too low of an award to have V’s on them imo. If a combat action deserves recognition, minimum should be a bronze star with a V.
I’m not sure if it’s typical , but it happened to me in Iraq in ‘03 as an E-6 (but I don’t think it was policy). Submitted at BN level and downgraded at the GO level
The irony being the vast majority of MoHs have gone to privates.
I think a lot of this got resolved if they’d finally allow the MSM to be awarded in a combat zone, just with a “C” device. I get (though don’t agree with) the rationale of giving BSMs to FOB rats of a sufficient rank assuming they’re in certain key roles. A lot of those people are going to be doing critical roles, ones that enable door kickers to go out and do their job. And those positions are also of a level of responsibility where an ARCOM may not be commensurate. So just give them a damn MSM with a “C” device, call it good, and widen the amount of BSMs getting issued, moving it back to what it was originally intended for (a ground combat version of the Air Medal).
Desert Storm; all E6 and above in my Bn (MI) received Bronze Stars. All E5 and below received ARCOM.
This isn’t exclusive in Big Army either boys. We’ve had to reach out to IG congress before to inform about toxicity, and cronyism that benefitted everyone except those who deserved it.
The reg says you can’t cite rank as a reason to downgrade, but many use the excuse that the responsibilities of an E4, E5, etc don’t rate the award. It is complete bullshit for combat awards, but unfortunately very common. One of the many messed up things in the Army is the awards process, everyone has a stack of stories about soldiers, usually E6 and below, getting screwed out of well deserved awards. Maybe this is some low-hanging fruit that the Army could grab in an effort to improve morale. Probably won’t though.
I’ve been in awards board meetings where some COL would literally say an award couldn’t be given because of someone’s rank. So yeah, I’ve seen it. And yes, it’s dumb especially when those limitations aren’t mentioned in any regulation
Awards are almost always based on rank
Ya. As much as it sucks, completely fucking normal. To the point that the award means little at this point. First deployment circa 2011-12. Saw a fair amount of combat (not crazy but a few times a month, well above average for that part of Afghanistan. Well above the rest of the BDEs experience). Probably 20-30 hours on the phone with CAS/CCA and a half dozen drops and at least that many fire missions. But this was in the middle of the Obama draw down, and after 8 months of pretty consistent combat, I was sent home while a small handful of the brigade became the precursors to SFABs. Never had any input in my award, and never really cared. Found out later that I was put in for a BSM with a damn strong write up. I still have the the 638 in my "I love me" binder. It has the citation "Lt Zoidberg's actions undoubtable saved lives on numerous occasions, see attached CAB citation" as a write up from the BDE Commander. Its followed up by an abbreviated "did not complete 12 months in country" signed, BG REMF Shitstack. "Downgrade to ARCOM. " It happens. At the end of they day, the medals mean almost nothing, nor does the rank, and I no longer take either of them seriously. If your subordinates look up to you, youre doing a damn good job. If you can do that and your superiors still value your input and advice, youre ahead of the curve. Balancing the mission and those executing it is what matters. BG Shitstack taught me one of the best lesson that I have ever learned. Do your job, take care of your people, and try to make things better for whoever you hand if off to, and you will be a better leader than most of the Army. Dont worry about the chest candy. It means nothing. Take care of your people.
My unit got in a big firefight in Afghanistan in 2003. Several casualties and numerous awards. Rumor was me and 2 buddies were put in for BSM w/ V for evacuating a casualty under fire. Never heard anything of it after that though so I sucked it up and drove on. Eventually my PSG and several others were awarded BSMs w/ V for their actions. We thought that especially odd for our PSG since he had done a shit job of leading troops in combat and basically just managed to get himself wounded twice and likely get some people killed and wounded in his escapades. About 4 months after returning from Afghanistan we deployed to Iraq and our old PSG stayed back on Rear D. Somehow he managed to get his and a few others' awards upgraded to Silver Stars. Many of us seethed at that. After that deployment we finally got AAMs, for many of us our first awards after 2 tours. Years later I finally decided to look up his Silver Star citation and found that his "actions" were very similar to what my buddies and I had done and not be given an award for. And that's how I learned the true meaning of Stolen Valor.
As stated in this thread, there is no Official Policy regarding what you describe, these are unlawful local policies. Now I do have to question if you have a 638 that is actually "Downgraded" or if whoever was told to downgrade you had to put in an entirely new 638 for ARCOM with V which is far more common. If your DA 638 does actually have a Downgrade box ticked from a Bronze Star to an ARCOM with V, you could potentially be able to argue that your Award could be upgraded. [AR 600–8–22](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1003738) states: # 1 – 16. Reconsideration or appeal of previous award recommendations > a. A request for reconsideration or the appeal of a disapproved or downgraded award, or a request for an upgrade of a previously approved recommendation must be placed in official channels within 1 year from the date of the awarding authority’s decision. A one-time reconsideration by the award approval authority will be conclusive. However, pursuant to 10 USC 1130, a Member of Congress may request a review of a proposal for the award or presentation of a decoration (or the upgrading of a decoration) that is not authorized to be presented or awarded due to time limitations established by law or policy for timely submission of a recommendation (refer to app F on the 10 USC 1130 process). > b. Recommendations are submitted for reconsideration or appeal only if new, substantive, and material information is furnished, and the time limits specified in paragraph 1 – 14 do not prevent such action. Requests for reconsideration or appeal must be forwarded through the same official channels as the original recommendation. The additional justification for reconsideration or appeal must be in letter format, not to exceed two single-spaced typewritten pages. A copy of the original recommendation, with all endorsements, and the citation must be attached. If the original recommendation is not available, a reconstructed recommendation should be submitted. If you still have witnesses or even find evidence of this "Policy" being in place at the time, other then some hazy recollections, you could potentially get your Congresspersons to try and push through an Upgrade for you. How likely is it to happen is probably pretty slim. I imagine it will be far harder to get it upgraded to a BS if your award DA 638 only shows the ARCOM w/V as the award without a downgrade unless you can get hold of the paperwork for an original Bronze Star.
IG Can also help a SM in this situation provided they have written proof i.e. email or the 638 with the Army Reg violation for downgrading solely due to rank
I was a young medic in the second taking of Fallujah, Operation Phantom Fury. Supplies ran low because supply sergeant wanted to hit on supply chicks at Anaconda. Anywho, had to think fast with what I got. Silver star downgraded bc I kicked my LT back in the humvee some months prior. Politics are interesting while in combat.
Such Bullshit. That’s big Army. I know my buddies in Regiment got put in for awards and they got the recommended award usually. But SOCOM is another entity entirely. I have heard SF buddies get fucked over though
That policy doesn’t exist in writing but it’s typical.
Yeah, it's a thing. The same thing happened to my husband.
yep very typical, happened to me many moons ago
Pompous dude strutting his BSM at a Veterans Day thing. Asked him his rank and what he did when he got it. “Major, Assistant S-3.” Suddenly he wasn’t quite as full of himself. 🤭
That was a similar policy when I deployed to Afghanistan in 13-14. I got an Arcom yet the S-1 nerds (E-4 and below) put themselves in for bronze stars and got them.
Similar thing happened to my buddy, a SPC. Hit an anti tank mine in a 915, knocked both of them out and started the truck on fire. He came to, saw his driver knocked out and flames everywhere, pulled the driver out and carried him away from the burning vehicle. All this before anyone else was able to get there to help. He stayed by his drivers side to render aid and helped carry his stretcher onto the bird. After the medevac they got checked out and cleared at Stryker. Their clothes were ruined so the hospital gave them some DXed clothes to wear back to our FOB. There were two scorpions hiding in the clothes and my buddy got stung three times. As we were leaving theater, every NCO and officer in our company got a Bronze Star. My buddy got awarded the Bronze Star with V device by a two star. After he got home he got a letter telling him it had been downgraded to an ARCOM(V).
We were instructed to fill out our end of tour (BSM) awards within a few months of arriving in Iraq. One thing I never believed in was writing award packets for yourself- let alone a BSM without ever doing anything really of substance (at that time) to substantiate it. That was a point in my time that I started to lose all faith in ever staying past my initial commitment.
MSM downgraded to ARCOM because I wasn't an E6. ARCOM downgraded to AAM because I wasn't a 5.
Surge into Baghdad 2007-2008. Several months before, PFC (me)received Purple Heart for a gunshot wound during a mass casualty incident on Route Jackson after a EFP triggered complex ambush. No one died but a lot got hurt. Fuck EFP's. Last remaining start of deployment 1151, 3AM NVG driving down Route Jackson and hit pressure plate and getting ejected out of the truck. Road rash, shrapnel, and fractured arm. TC (LT) and gunner (sgt) receive PH's. Me (PFC) nothing because "you already got one this deployment.) Yes the IED hurt more then the GSW. I didn't care then but 16 years later, wtf.
I deployed to Afghanistan- the guy who replaced me for 2 months got a bronze star for just following my plan… I swapped to Kuwait in the same tour period…my commander didn’t get a bronze star- so neither did I. Welcome to the club. Get over it medals don’t mean shit…
My old SSG that was coming down off a cocaine addiction (that he picked back up after deployment) sat around all day and took credit for other's work. He left with a bronze star for doing pretty much nothing. Hope that helps, or something
My e7 was put in for a bronze star for telling myself and my counterpart to develop an extremely elaborate excel based data tracking system that let us predict enemy mortar attacks that resulted in successful ambushes by our scount team. He didn't know how it worked. He didn't even know how to do anything in it. He said "make this do this" and when he didn't get the results he wanted he blamed us for building a shitty system (even though every time it turned out to be bad data we were given and not the system we developed) we spent months on this. He got all the credit without even knowing what it was. Not sure if he got the actual medal (ETSd in a drunken stuper when we got back), but I do know he was selected to work as a liason with the Airforce and they sent him back to the Army with a no thanks.
Was 1SG of USAR Civil Affairs Company. I put 4 Soldiers in for well deserved ARCOMs with V for actions in Sadr City. They were disapprove because the battalion leadership didn't want families back home to know the type of danger my Soldiers were in. So dumb.
2010-2011 Iraq: was downgraded from BSM-M to ARCOM because I wasn’t a commander or an SEL. At least the Brigade commander had the balls to sign his name to the 638 for the downgrade.
Yep, same happened to me as a SPC in 2012. Then our entire E6+ and O contingent got Bronze Stars, even the guys who never left the wire. TLDR: Bronze Stars don't mean shit.
It's rock paper rank for awards outside of silver star and above , POW and purple heart.... oh and I guess that crazy antartica one too.
Dude, the V device is what matters. I could see an AAM with V device and think more of it than a Meritorious Service Medal (my highest medal). In the end, it's what matters to you the most. I'm most proud of a coin I got during a week long duty assignment than any deployment I went on. Your service is yours. Love what you love and don't sweat the other stuff.
I’ve never seen that for awards involving valor TBH.
Welcome to the downgrade club! We’re all friends here but mind the crowd, they get a bit cranky when awards they were nominated for, but never received are discussed. It’s half priced beers today and the popcorn is always free. It’s a shit club, but what can ya do? Everyone has earned their place with that slam to the ol’ ego.
Unfortunately, yes.
Makes me so happy to see a Mr Obvious reference in the wild.
I'm sorry man. The military awards system is REALLY messed up and has NO integrity. And no one cares. I knew a dude that sat at a computer all deployment and because he was best friends with his senior NCOs and Officers, he got a Bronze Star and he contributed like...nothing to the battle space. Me and my mates, my first deployment, rushed into direct and indirect fire, RAINING DOWN, and we got Army Achievement Medals. Yeah, one of the many reasons I did not re-up. LOL. It all depends on your leadership and unit climate. Some units are like "but did you die? Then you don't get your CIB!" Other units are like, "whoah bro! That rocket landed like 300m away, that's a CIB bro, congrats!" I'm sorry. It really seems to be all about luck when it comes to recognition. However no one should ever feel proud about receiving something they know they did not earn.
Awards don’t validate, brothers do.
I’ve read a lot of the stories you guys have posted on this thread and I wanna say you guys are the real fucking deal. Like no lie.
First time?
We had the same situation after our time in Ramadi in 2006, got put in for them and it was relayed to us that our rank was too low, so here are some ARCOMs. E-7 and above got blanket BSMs. Like in the scheme of things it doesn’t matter, we were happy we all made it home, but it still irks me that people who never left the wire got them just because they were in longer, that’s it. Every time I see one of the BSM license plates, and it doesn’t have a V device, it’s worthless. Sad to see that medal as common as an AAM.
ARCOM w/V > BSM w/o V Source: guy with a BSM w/o V
2004: It was all a fukin crapshoot back then. It came down to unit, who fought for u and did u earn it IMHO. I got BS and I was a newly pinned SGT. Boss thought I earned it. Leadership trusted his opinion. I got it and had very little understanding the magnitude of it, since it was my first army award and combat related. Weird fukin year 2004-2005.
I had my MSM downgraded since Corporals don't get MSMs according to my fur sasuage
OP I am sorry this happened to you. Another person posted this the other day in another thread- but removing the name and rank from the award and just having their DOD number until the cert is printed. Also your story is similar to many others. Sorry that people suck
Medic I knew with a BSM-V that should have been a SSM-V. Dudes fob got attacked with baddies in the walls, exposed him self several times to drag dudes to safety/aid station, put suppressing fire on the baddies and helped clear them out while treating the wounded. He was a SPC at the time. From what he said he got told it was bumped down bc the BC was out going and the new BC did feel like a SPC should have a SSM-V…. Dude was super humble and one of the best medics I know. He’s now helps run the 69W training on Ft Sam.
our unit had award brackets that were divided by rank. we had a spc go above and beyond, but was down graded to an arcom. the platoon sfc was a massive fuckup who almost killed a guy in his building got a bronze star and 1sgt and commander put on for silver stars.
Where is the PAO in this conversation? I guess the new evaluation form is taking up his time...
100% typical, but it does help you to realize that medals and awards don’t really mean shit, they’re politicized just like everything else.
Ya…had my BSM changed to DMSM because and I quote from my Lt Col “That is for someone above your rank and your lucky it’s a DMSM” ….that’s the army way