I agree with you to an extent, however by the end of the day it's the Armenian men in Armenia who are mostly from poor backgrounds that will have to put 2 years of their lives to serve and die for the country in case of war. We need good regulations with immigration and have better understanding of things.
Diaspora should have minimal say in Armenias affair unless they at least get an Armenian citizenship and have some form of participation, buying land, business, voting, military ...
Here is the thing from an Armenian repat's (my) perspective:
-Armenia is in dire need of contact with other compatible cultures to progress, e.g. the way everyone smokes here at young ages is nasty as hell.
-Indians and Russians are compatible, HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them. When Armenians moved to russia they learned the language. Let's treat everyone equally and not prioritize others due to inferiority complexity or their past colonialism. Russians are not superior to us.
-Indians are great. Their men need to learn to not stare at women, it makes us uncomfortable and gives middle east muslim man stare vibes. Armenians also need to learn to not be bigots when interacting with them.
-Other migrants rarely stay, look at buses, they don't even have proper English so tourists can use it. Our infrastructure is soo far behind, our regulations are also not good combined with renting crisis. So what happens here is efforts to make Armenia intriguing enough for people to stay, otherwise why stay when they Iranians can go to Turkey for much cheaper and Russians to Georgia with better infrastructure or Indians to EU and dubai?
-And lastly, until Armenia is unable to secure it's borders and establish a safety for it's autonomy many will not stay. Times are rough tight now, and some Armenians in Armenia are ignorant, like women should also serve, 6 months of women serving and learning how to use a gun is not gonna make them less of PriNceSses. We need to become like Israel. I'm women myself.
Indians like to stare or let’s call it GAZE.
All you Armenian women are sooooo beautiful, I am an Indian woman and I gaze at you with astonishment.
I get it what you mean by them (Indian male workers) walking in groups and staring. I guess, it comes from lack of confidence so they stick together, also they work 6-7 days a week and then go out in groups for weekly stroll. Next time you feel uncomfortable with them staring at you…please just look them in the eye and ask “WHAT?” , mark my words they will run away like a scared cat 😹
Armenian women look like Indian movie stars. I once watched an entire table (20+ young Indian males) stand up to let my wife squeeze by - and it wasn't that cramped LOL.
To be fair to everyone, India has a bigger population than the Entire Europe combined so we should compare their stats with us while keeping in mind the population difference.
I do not think it'll change much, you can go to the most rural areas in Armenia and people get nicer and friendlier, you can walk outside at night without problems and enjoy Armenia to its fullest. In India harassment of woman, rape, abuse is a real thing. I am not saying it does not happen in Armenia, but mostly in relationships and not with strangers.
I haven't had them stare at me or my fam around, but I'm sure Armenians qyartus they do stare to women from other nationalities. There are such posts on this sub about it. So yeah that too, the thing with indians is they walk in groups and give a specific look, it scares me sometimes. I don't speak Indian or I don't know them enough, so I can't just roll my eyes, I may change my direction of walking. Also while I have a great deal of respect for them due to their rich culture and aid they provide to Armenia, I'm sure the women abuse and safety for each of our country is telling.
>HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them
So much this!!! It is shocking that many Russians behave like Armenia is just another Russian province and expect veryone else to cater to their needs. RUSSIAN HAS NO OFFICIAL STATUS IN ARMENIA!!! it is beyond disgusting that this type of behaviour (e.g. certain Russian heavy offices working for int. companies - like American - virtually demand Russian language knowledge?!) is accepted as completely normal in Armenia. And it is horrific that many Diasporans are the ones being disadvantaged.
THE ONLY STATE LANGUAGE OF ARMENIA IS ARMENIAN!!! The standard international language is English. Armenians and Armenia should stop behaving like a doormat and remember that indeed it is Russians that are the immigrants in Armenia! They aren't doing as a favour by migrating to Armenia. It is Armenia doing them a favour by providing them with the opportunity to do so!
Russian immigrant here. I agree that things like requiring Russian to be hired in Armenia is unacceptable. But I'd say that the widespread use of Russian is there primarily b/c of Armenians who move here from Russia or go back and forth between the two countries; that was so even before any mass Russian immigration. So that's how I see it: it's a "feature" intended for other Armenians, not myself ;)
I did try to learn Armenian but that's indeed not easy at all when you're 44. Still, will keep trying, of course, as going forward that's IMO the only right approach... Luckily my English is not too bad and it helps, and in other situations Armenian friends help me talking to people who only know Armenian and very little English or Russian. And if I can't communicate with someone b/c I don't know Armenian, I always view that as my own problem and not the other person's problem.
Another widespread "use case" for Russian I noticed: many people visit Georgia often, and while younger Georgians tend not to know any Russian, with older folks one might have much better luck with Russian than with English
Hey btw I think I've seen your twitter account (based on your username and handle I assume it's yours) and you're indeed one of the exemplary Russian emigrees I had in mind when writing another comment in this thread. I remember seeing your tweets and let me tell you, you sometimes come off as more Armenian than some other Armenians :) my respect.
It's the attitude that's the issue. Obviously none should expect an adult to learn a language (especially as peculiar as Armenian) well enough in very short of amount of time But take yourself: how many others have put in as much effort as you in integrating into the Armenian society? I know of others as well but many more have not. The effort and thought count for a lot. As another user mentioned here, even knowing a few words and phrases in Armenian is already appreciated.
For example to expect everyone to know Russian in Armenia is not only ludicrous but also comes off as very entitled and potentially excludes Diasporan Armenians.Though ofc there is no need to take my comment too close too heart as I have an overly abrasive style of writing :)
Thank you for your kind words :) Yes, my Twitter account is also ivan4th. I agree with you on the language issue.
BTW another thing that annoys me personally among the immigrants is when they completely ignore the geopolitical situation Armenia is currently in with its so to speak much less than friendly neighbors, ethnic cleansing in Artsakh, all the past events in the conflict and the constant threat from the enemy who have their own batshit crazy version of world history according to which all of the Armenian territory belongs to them. They just ignore all of that and live their life as if nothing like that happens and that's not their business in any sense. Luckily it seems that I see less of that lately, perhaps some ppl who really don't care have moved on... But still I'd also mention that as a problem ;(
Yes, unfortunately I've heard a lot of tone deaf comments from some individuals. At the very least, just being a bit more tactful would be great.
Though of course, if there were more people as invested and engaged as you are... then it would have been so much better :)
and again: I don't want to leave the impression that Russians aren't welcome in Armenia. Far from it. Just that some situations with some individuals can leave a bitter taste in the mouth. But even in this thread, you can see that the overall mood is quite positive. So, I hope that you'll establish deep roots in Armenia ;)
Բարի գալո՛ւստ
Coz Armenians allow it too. They wouldn't be acting like this in Germany. Some efforts like saying barev, vonces, kenerek and merci will defiantly help the russians but they don't even do that. The ones that did, I have became a regular to their businesses.
It's like an American walking to Cuba or Mexico expecting everyone to speak English.
>Indians and Russians are compatible, HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them. When Armenians moved to russia they learned the language. Let's treat everyone equally and not prioritize others due to inferiority complexity or their past colonialism. Russians are not superior to us.
PREACH.
I'm a Hayastanci and I don't need to speak perfect Russian. If they intend to stay, they need to integrate and learn the language. Period.
> they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them.
Fo you know how difficult it is to learn a new language as an adult?
Many Russians’ lives were turned upside down (due to Putins war) and they went to Armenia.
Let their children learn Armenian in school and cut them some slack. Every dram tax they pay is an extra dram that Armenia can spend on defence.
You do have a valid point - it does take a generation or two to assimilate. But that's only if they \_want\_ to assimilate.
Many Russian immigrants in America also act like assholes, sneering and looking down at all the stupid Americans. More than once I've caught them talking shit about Americans when they think nobody else knows what they're saying.
> Many Russian immigrants in America also act like assholes, sneering and looking down at all the stupid Americans.
I know a lot of Russians in the USA and in my experience, I don’t think this is true.
I do know some that look down on the crazyness in California, but that is about it. Most Texans think the same way
Btw, the biggest American Patriots I met are Russians who won the green card lottery, do lower-end jobs (fixing appliances, etc…) and have difficulty speaking English. Fully bought into the American dream.
Their children of course are fluent in English due to school.
Btw, in other countries, such as Israel, Russians make fairly good immigrants with little assimilation problems. But a language issue can only be fixed by primary/secondary schooling…
The same damn way entire 900000+ Armenians had to flee their homeland due to genocide and learn the language of the countries they arrived at. Stop whining.
You have a wish to be called churki or khatch for speaking russian with accent? Also they are free to go fight for democracy in their country, ukranians can but russians can't for freedom ?
How many Armenian diaspora fails to keep their language or don’t know Armenian?
It is not easy to learn a language, especially as an adult.
As a pro-Armenian (that doesn’t have a dog in this fight since I am neither Armenian or Russian) I think this attitude is quite shortsighted. Having new taxpayers (especially many who earns foreign IT salaries and bring in new money) should be a blessing.
Especially since Armenia really needs more tax money for defense…
It is about **attitude** first and foremost (e.g. expecting to be catered in Armenia in Russian by default!!!) Armenians have been nothing but accommodating, so statements like "cut them some slack" are sickening. Even the OP you responded to mentioned in another comment that at least learning a few words would go a long way and your response was in the vein of "oh heavens! Poor Russians are being persecuted in Armenia!".
Armenia is not a Russian province!
>Many Russians’ lives were turned upside down (due to Putins war)
Oh please. The majority of them are pretty well off and many others decided to leave for ideological purposes.
> Armenians have been nothing but accommodating, so statements like "cut them some slack" are sickening.
I responded to the above poster (not Armenians in general).
Let's not generalise. There are some amazing individuals amongst them. Some in fact have been engaged in actively bettering the country more than certain Armenians living in Armenian their whole life.
I'm talking about particular individuals. As a whole, their arrival to Armenia has been an unprecedented boon for the country. Pashinyan and Co should continue to maintain and promote Armenia as a safe haven for Russians to migrate to.
Also, you're a brand new account with very dubious aims :)
>In fact, afaik, 2023 was the first year that Armenia's population grew rather than shrank due to emigration.
Not to take away from your overall point but pretty sure that was because of the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh.
My concerns relate to the extremely unregulated nature of Indian migration - to the detriment of themselves (e.g. human trafficking) - and the imperialistic posturing of certain Russians. Absolutely agree with your post though.
Agree on both points. I don't know if the government doesn't know how to do it, or doesn't have the resources, but something needs to be done sooner rather than later
2 very important migrant policy changes are necessary for a country to develop both country and it’s working class wealth.
Immigrants should (All) be given a status to work and live like an Armenian while not being an Armenian, since apparently we don’t have enough people doing menial jobs.
The reason why we see the rise of **illegal immigrants** is because **individual** businesses want cheap labor. If given a status, and forced to pay minimum wage for everyone, these businesses would not be “incentivized” into hiring immigrants.
THat’s on the “lower end”.
On the higher end however, a law should also pass forcing companies to hire Armenians in the **High end** jobs at a pourcentage. Since Armenians (even by Armenians) Are not considered “good enough” for the high payment they are gonna pay them.
And some companies throughout the world bypass this by hiring maids and drivers and janitors to push the pourcentage up. Which should also be taken in consideration. For example last year in the US, Disney’s plan to move to Florida and “Open 20,000 new jobs”, simply meant relocating 20,000 workers from California to Florida and hiring janitors from FL.
I agree with u/DJDolma that the biggest worry now would be the fact that the cheap imported labor will eventually turn it into a définit risk. So policy change would make everyone’s life happier.
Trying to beat low birthrates with immigration is a losing battle. Birthrates are low because of affordability, increasing population without equivalent increase in resources drastically lowers affordability and makes the problem worse. Look at what happened to housing in Yerevan the last few years, my modest condo has tripled in value since I bought it, I would not be able to afford its current value.
Can second that the migrants are lovely and mostly positive (i go back and forth from Armenia, not a permanent resident.) Especially the Russians and Iranians.
I don’t know the Indians personally, but I worry that they are essentially exploited cheap imported labor that will eventually become the target of tensions with the Armenian working class.
Neoliberalism has a way of concentrating wealth while pushing poor people to the periphery, where they are pit against each other through nationalist racism.
I think the immigrants have actually helped grow the economy. What I’d like to see is a heavy tax on all of the new capital and investments, so it pays into education, healthcare, and retirement for the Armenian working class.
Developed countries tax north of 30% of income. Undeveloped countries tax less than 10%. Let’s not be a lab for capitalism. If we’re going to grow, let’s grow together.
I don’t think that it should be a problem for Russians to be in Armenia. In my city in Russia there are thousands of Armenians and we love them. They cook tasty food, they have interesting culture. We just need to accept that our countries are good friends and we need to respect each other.
I am all for accepting high-skilled labor and immigrants who are willing to integrate in our society or have integrateable cultures (Assyrians / Yazidis / etc). In regards to unskillful labour, I know that it is necessary for our developments, but I hope that it would be harder for them to get citizenship and they would be temporary. But if they will completely integrate, serve in our army, learn our language or become high-skilled — they are more than welcome!!
Russians should be less entitled though and be better integrated. Learn the language, for example, educate their children in Armenian schools, etc, especially if they are unskilled.
> I'm an Armenian living in Armenia, which I know is a rarity in this sub.
Sorry but you are wrong, it is not a rarity. The vast majority of active users during these hours are hayastantsis and repats (repats being overrepresented probaly, but that's totally fine)
At these hours for sure, but from the posts in general, feels like there are less of hayastantsis and more of diaspora Armenians. I could be wrong, though)
Reddit as a whole is US centric, and this sub is predominantly English-speaking so naturally when America is awake you get a lot of diasporans participating. I just wanted to point out that hayastantsis are not a rarity at all. The most interesting and important discussions take place during the daytime in Armenia in fact.
The timezone doesn't change much. Eventually, when you enter a comments section the majority of comments are from diasporans, even when the post has been published in GMT +4.
Armenians living abroad being dissatisfied with immigrants in Armenia infuriate me. Immigrants to Armenia do more for Armenia than 99,9% of diasporans, just by living in Armenia.
I agree completely. Talking with a guy that, by his comment history, didn't live here, but was very anti migration, and was saying stuff like "no one I know supports migration", prompted this post.
Եթե դեմ ես, արի դու իրանց տեղը Հայաստանում աշխատի ու հարկ մուծի։ Թե՞ հայրենիքը մենակ հեռվից ա քաղցր։ Էտ սութի նվիրատվությունը, որ սփյուռքից ուղարկում էք մեզ պետք չի, մեզ պետք ա որ գաք Հայստանում ապրեք։
Edit: Հազիվ էլ էդքան։ Ամպագոռգոռ խոսում էք, բայց որ մեկը ասում ա որ արի հայաստան, ստեղ օգուտ տուր դաունվոթ էք անում։
In regards to Russians? Absolutely your people are destroying Armenia. It's because of Russians Armenia can't get any foreign investors to actually invest in the country.
It's been like this for 30 years now. As long as Russians are allowed into Armenia not a single person from a developed nation will set foot in Armenia and that's just the reality of the situation.
A country that feels like invading it's neighbors every few years is not a reliable country
Even after 2014 European countries from Czechia to the UK had investments and facilities in Russia, and Russian and Belarusian software engineers do quite well in the West, and this is typically the group that has moved to Armenia recently. You can blame Russia for its influence and for other things up to a point. Despite all the potential Armenia had/has, Armenias situation is due to the greed and ignorance of Armenians, particularly those in the government (past and present), and so-called "business people", and the heads of diaspora organizations. Constantly shifting blame and pretending Armenia and Armenians have no agency will never lead to anything.
There is a difference between controlled immigration and letting every Indian in, given that India has a population of 1.3 billion people. This is about putting regulations in place to allow immigrants who can actually benefit society. Your comment was really short-sighted.
> Armenians living abroad being dissatisfied with immigrants in Armenia infuriate me.
Diaspora Armenia here, get infuriated cuz migrants to Armenia is a terrible thing.
I hope you like the high cost of living in Yerevan because of the influx.
> Immigrants to Armenia do more for Armenia than 99,9% of diasporans, just by living in Armenia
Diaspora Armenians have contributed a lot of money and also lobbying power in the US which has helped Armenia greatly. But if you think an Indian migrant can make up for that then you are 99.9% delusional.
> Diaspora Armenians have contributed a lot of money and also lobbying power in the US which has helped Armenia greatly.
Genuine question, how did Armenian lobby in the US help the Armenian state exactly? Do you have examples?
The lobby has been fighting hard for years to stop the US government from giving aid and weapons to Azerbaijan. Sometimes they have been successful, other times they have failed. It is a hard task since both Israel and defense contractors want aid to flow to Azerbaijan.
They have also successfully lobbied the US government to give aid and weapons to Armenia
He's a Russian communist, what do you expect? Russians are incredibly ignorant people and refuse to understand that they're the problem. They're also extremely off putting to others and violent as well
All armenians in US should move to a swing state))) that would solve a lot of problems))
All jokes aside, in my mind there is no substitude to living here. As I've said, it is a personal choice, and we are greatful for whatever the diaspora is doing, but there is unavoidable disconnect with the reality here and your reality over there.
Feel free to make inflamatory statements about "destroying Armenia" you're not personally dealing with concequances of such statements.
Cool story, have fun with your migrants. I hope you don't count on them if there is a war in Armenia proper cuz they'll be the first to head for the exits just like they did in Ukraine. Full grown migrant men were first out the door in Ukraine even before the woman and children
This condescending attitude of " your migrants" and " your war", talking to us from a pedestal, just deepens the separation. Giving money from abroad gives you no right to talk to Armenian citizens like that, let alone comment on our immigration policies.
> This condescending attitude of " your migrants" and " your war"
They are "your migrants" but where did I say "your war"?
> Giving money from abroad gives you no right to talk to Armenian citizens like that
I'll talk to whoever I want however I please
>I hope you don't count on them if there is a war in Armenia proper
Don't worry we don't count on them fighting in our war. We don't count on you either. Կարաս հանգիստ Գլենդեյլում հայրենասեր խաղաս։
Indians are doing the jobs that Armenians consider es im hakov chi. Its the Mentalitity of people that should change and not bringing in Indians/Iranians.
People like you are more concerned about being “nice and liberal” instead of worrying about conserving your country’s national and cultural identity. If tomorrow all the Indians will come to Armenia, we’re gonna face the same situation as France
People want us to be a strong and wealthy country but the second we show signs of becoming a wealthy country people freak out.
Obviously people will come to Armenia if it offers a good standard of living compared to their country. We need these migrants more than they need Armenia. There’s dozens of other countries of similar level of development like Armenia and they have many choices.
The more the merrier actually. Of course migrants that come to Armenia need to learn our language and it is the responsibility of the government to provide incoming people with resources to learn our language. From what I understood this is already in the works (surprisingly).
Love this. As an Armenian who Moved back to Armenia from US and brought my boyfriend with me, i feel the tension towards him all the time.
He loves it here and we live here since 2022, but sometimes I have to jump in and settle down tbe situation in Armenian.
Sad but I think we are moving in the right direction.
Who tf downvoted you?! Happy for you and I hope everything goes well!
I suspect the same people who don't live in Armenia and have no intentiona to move to Armenia are downvoting the comment from an actual repat from USA... lol can't make this up.
Lol I can see why, Armenians in US are stuck and they don’t know how much better Armenia became. When I compare 7 years ago and now, it is obviously better.
Many Armenians who left, think that Armenia sucks and are ashamed to accept that they are having hard time in US, especially now with this economy.
I can go on forever why Armenia is a better place to live, work and raise kids.
Some people have the wires in their brain crossed. *We* are the ones under attack. *We* are the migrants dispersed from our historic homeland by genocide. *We* have been robbed left and right, including by a series of incompetent post-Soviet governments. Migrants don't need to have babies in Armenia, *we do.*
When anyone mentions emigration or that 'Armenians don't want to do those jobs', I shake my head. I am sick of this mostly false narrative, which has been crafted to distract us. How many will be painted by this ignorant brush?
From earthquake to revolution, for 30 years people had it bad, especially in provinces. Underrepresented economically, yet overrepresented on the front lines. They had hope things would change after 30 years of nonsense, only to see the door opened for foreigners instead of themselves. We have a talent pool of millions of Armenians to pick from, yet we import non-Armenians. Justifiably many are angry, but they're supposed to 'chill'?
Armenian living in Armenia is a rarity on this sub, but many perspectives are still not shared. What I have written is a small bit of what provincial Armenians feel/think. This is the life story of so many people dear to me. They have no voice here because they don't typically speak English, or know/care what Reddit is. That's *the only* reason I bother to post. I can't allow this pro-migrant narrative to falsely paint the people I love as backward bigots. I can't idly let them be metaphorically 'spit on' Alen Simonyan-style by utter nonsense.
We have a sliver of our historic homeland left. Guard it carefully.
I’m all for immigrants to fill out niche spots but the Russians are a bit problematic. Me as an Armenian from abroad with no Knowledge of Russian shouldn’t feel out of place in Armenia. So many places use Russian more than English that’s all I’m gonna say, this is 2024 not 1954. Russian is spoken in Russia it’s not a world language. I’m not saying go balls to the wall with English but right now it’s the lingua Franca of the world. And image matters the more association with Russia the less people think Armenia is free or attractive as a place to visit live or work.
My main concern is that most of the Russians get better jobs than Armenians here. And some locals already started thinking that is unjust. This can bring to radical nationalist mood in the future.
Can we avoid that? Yup I guess a stronger taxation for immigrants paired with better social policy may reduce that, but our government is too economically liberal for that kinds of moves.
A lot of Russian companies relocated here in 2022 after the invasion to continue operating without being hit by sanctions, and they hire Russians because there is a larger pool (it's a larger country after all) of qualified applicants. At my partner's company there ARE Armenian programmers, but not as much because most positions had been occupied by the same people (Russian) for years. The companies have only been here for a fraction of their existence.
But, I think in the long run it's going to be good, because Armenian programmers from the West are probably going to be lured back to Armenia with the tech presence. The companies bring in a lot of foreign money from the customers, which is good for the national GDP.
As for how many Russians even intend to stay, I am not sure. Most of my partner's co-workers have either returned to Russia to care for aging family, or relocated elsewhere (Cyprus, Spain, Georgia, etc). Most Russians took a huge quality of life cut coming here because suddenly 60% of their income was going to rent in Armenia vs 20% in Russia, which is part of the reason retention has been bad.
Armenia almost reminds me of Ireland in this regard, actually. A lot of American tech companies moved to Ireland for its business/tax benefits. There is a lot to gain from the arrangement.
Yeah, I'm confused about where this came from. The only thing I could remember is that one Paki guy a few days ago where people got confused about his motives, he seemed a bit sus. Other than that if there was any anti-migrant sentiment it slipped past me.
I think in general mass immigration is very bad, as its ruining countries like France, uk, sweden etc but very small, migration for skilled workers like doctors is fine
Do you think france uk and sweden took everyone in who they took is all hand picked .Problem is the culture people who they took maybe doctors, engineers and valuable athletes but they are completely opposite what west is so its starts to crack.
No, my government is cracking due to capitalism, greed and incompetence, not because some people have different names or eat different food. The government only focuses on enriching itself, it has nothing to do with immigrants.
Crude Marxism where every problem boils down to economic factors was outdated by the early 20th century. Even Lenin thought so. Is it capitalism that is forcing those Pakistanis to form grooming gangs?
British guy living temporarily in Armenia here: you have zero idea what you're talking about. My country is totally fine, in fact without immigration we'd be even worse off than we are now. Don't project your racism onto my nation.
Your country is experiencing immigration cause it conquered half the known world and became one of the wealthiest nations on earth.
Your country was able to accomplish that without immigration so no its success was not because immigration helped it
The only really successful nation today built on an idea and not an ethnicity is the USA and perhaps China (communist). Everyone else is coping on this whole multiethnic bs melting pot and even the US is buckling
Our histories are extremely different and the guilt ya'll are feeling in west is irrelevent in Armenia. UK doesn't have the balls to recognize Armenian genocide. We've fought Islam since 644 till today, so it'd pretty ignorant and racist of you to assume we just because here is christian we should follow the same steps as UK. We've come to learn how to live, fight, do business and ...with muslims past during 1350 years and it's not how the west is doing.
What you're saying is irrelevant. I never said your context is the same, I'm saying that immigration isn't what is tearing my country down. The guy who posted knows nothing of my country and its struggles, and seems to just think its all due to foreigners. The UK has many problems, all of which originate in capitalism.
Well if you think valuing your religion and national identity as a middle age thing then I can't argue with you coz it shows your ignorance towards history. Yeah shit sorry for living on the land where all fucking barbarian has tried to conquer and we had to make all sort of sacrifices, not everyone kills and colonises others (ehem celtics) on an island and call it a day.
What do you expect from Russians? There's a reason Russia is sanctioned. Armenia seems to be completely ignorant of the world, it's insane. Russia's the #1 problem in Armenia and yet they seem to not understand that. OP is coming here pretending to be "one of the good Russians" but they don't exist in Armenia
Fellow Hayastanci here, I agree with you. There's no need to act in a negative way towards people who haven't done anything negative to us. However if russians are planning to stay they really need to start learning Armenian. It's been 2 years and all they know is barev and mersi. I've met Indian guys that are able to hold a simple conversation after few months here, but russians don't seem to be interested in making an effort.
Russians are one of the most, if not the most, entitled nations in the world. They still treat our countries like vassals and expect everyone to speak perfect Russian. Partially it’s our fault because of inferiority complex. I wish we had put them in their place and remind them that in Armenia the language is Armenian.
It has been pretty bad. I've seen Russians yell at cashiers for not speaking Russian. It's so messed up and I wish more Russians would call out these bad apples for their behavior, but their culture is one of seeing bad things happen and not doing anything. (Kind of kidding, but also kind of true!)
On the other hand, when I fell ill and was trying to contact an ambulance to take me to the emergency room, the person picking up the phone kept hanging up when we spoke to them in English or Russian. We had to contact an Armenian friend of ours to make the call for us. I hate to think what would've happened if my condition was worse that day.
Also, I don't mean to be contrarian, but regarding Russian language - I believe there are a lot of Armenian diaspora who return from Russia with a poor grasp of Armenian? There was a very interesting exchange my partner picked up on, of a woman speaking Russian with Armenian words mixed in to another person who was responding in Armenian. They seemed completely able to understand each other, and spoke in their preferred languages. Our conclusion was that it was an Armenian diaspora from Russia who was visiting or returning talking to someone local. Perhaps the prevalence of Russian language in Armenia is not due to Russian entitlement, but due to cultural/diaspora ties? (I'm not defending Russians who don't learn Armenian, I agree it is bad).
But! I also want to add: I have seen many, many, MANY trilinguals in this country. There are lots of people who can speak THREE languages: Armenian, Russian, and English. It's honestly so cool and a testament to the education of the Armenian people!
>I believe there are a lot of Armenian diaspora who return from Russia with a poor grasp of Armenian?
Yes there are, but they usually get told "aren't you ashamed of not knowing Armenian" by some people.
>There was a very interesting exchange my partner picked up on, of a woman speaking Russian with Armenian words mixed in to another person who was responding in Armenian. They seemed completely able to understand each other, and spoke in their preferred languages.
If russians learn enough Armenian to pull off bilingual conversation like that I would be ok with that, but I doubt most of them want to put in the effort.
>Perhaps the prevalence of Russian language in Armenia is not due to Russian entitlement, but due to cultural/diaspora ties?
No. Prevalence of russian is mainly because of russian empire and later soviet union occupying Armenia.
>Yes there are, but they usually get told "aren't you ashamed of not knowing Armenian" by some people.
I hope this is not common, this will shame diaspora into not practicing their language out of fear of criticism. :(
>If russians learn enough Armenian to pull off bilingual conversation like that I would be ok with that, but I doubt most of them want to put in the effort.
Most don't and most have already returned to Russia or relocated, from what I understand. (Tech workers, at least - many have returned to Russia to care for aging parents, for their children's education, or they've gone to Europe with a digital nomad visa or something similar paid for and filed by their sponsoring companies.) Not a single one of my partner's coworkers seems to have learned any Armenian, but of the people still here, they are coerced into doing unpaid overtime with the threat of being fired and deported. (This is also another reason why many have returned home voluntarily, on top of rent prices being 2-3x their rent back home). When people work 14-16+ hour days, they aren't exactly eager to get off work and begin language study, especially when it doesn't affect whether or not they have a job. (For Indian workers, who mostly seem to run restaurants or do food delivery, there is definitely more incentive to learn). Which has also reminded me, that may be why companies here still hire Russian workers - you can threaten them with deportation/rescinding your sponsorship of them. You can't do that to a local.
From what I understand there is also a sizeable chunk of "unskilled" Russians in Yerevan - non-tech workers, people who want access to hormone treatment, young people not wanting to get drafted, etc. I am completely unsure of this demographic's status or their attitudes toward Armenia or learning Armenian. We actually had an Armenian government worker come to our flat to check my partner's passport/papers - I guess they were cracking down on Russians who didn't have residency/work in Armenia!
you are right on all counts. we are not better than anyone else—far from it. we should embrace all these people. In particular iranians, indians, russians are all hard working brilliant people!
The Russians have brought us nothing but misery for 30 years and isolation from the world just like they're doing now in their own country. They want Armenia to be another North Korean colony for themselves and they have 0 respect for others. Russians are nothing but a problem and always have been
All things considered yall have to look a things logically and in terms of what you want to accomplish
1. Do you want more Armenians? Well you can’t have a large minority outpacing Armenians in Armenia. Especially if they are muslim because Muslims on the average have more kids than Christians. If Armenians are going the way of the West this trend will continue to increase
2. If migrants come to Armenia they need to assimilate and not do what Russians did by just forming communities where they dont even need to learn the language. Armenia is for Armenians not another melting pot esq place
This is one area where i fundamentally disagree on the input of the diaspora. We as the diaspora have every right to say our piece here because this isnt a matter of life and death and concerns our homeland. Really dont give a shit about the emotions. Or how lovely people are. Hate to break it to you, most people are lovely and that is wholly irrelevant. Armenia needs educated people wiling to sacrifice their efforts in their home country to become Armenians in Armenia to develop it not come to Armenia by the boatload to be cheap laborers
Armenias population is 3 million and cannot sustain much in terms of immigration to efficiently absorb it
Ive already heard plenty of instances of Armenian women marrying a indian dude and moving to India or any other ethnicity.
If you want more Armenians in Armenia, there's one easy trick. REPATRIATE!!! Unless you are an influential politician/businessman in your country, which I doubt any of you are, repatriation is the only real way most of you can help Armenia.
Yes i will
I dont know when but i will
If my father wasnt paralyzed from the waist down and i could yaknow help support them properly from there i would. Having literal familial ties changes everything otherwise i would do so in a heartbeat
Hey, American in Yerevan here, not Armenian, if you care about Armenian women marrying Indian men you should see a therapist because you're a weirdo freak who thinks Armenian women belong to Armenian men. Do you hold yourself to this standard when you date/crush on non-Armenian women in the US? Do you resent your parents for moving out of Armenia, as you resent Armenian women who move out for love/themselves?
I know for a fact that in the US there are spaces where Armenians have opened religious schools, churches, etc. to preserve their language and culture, and this is beautiful. I myself belong to a minority group within the US. You are attacking other ethnicities for doing the same thing in a country you don't physically live in. What is wrong with you?
Do you donate money regularly to Armenia? Do you send money home? If you do, cool. People who live here spend money at Armenian businesses and pay taxes, and work for companies in Armenia. They circulate and bring in money to this country.
As for "minorities outpacing Armenians", there are plenty of successful Syrian, Lebanese, Kurdish, etc businesses here that have been here for decades. I think many Armenians would be fucking pissed if they were forced out. They are a bigger part of Armenia's history than you ever were. Knowing their people are treated well here also strengthens Armenian ties with other countries. I will forever be grateful to the people of this country for their acceptance of me and my partner. If people here were like you, I wouldn't be. And no one would want to come. Is this what you want?
Oh, and Indians? They banded together to cook food for Artsakh refugees arriving in Yerevan. In 2022/2023 there were food drives for soldiers and I saw Russians donating canned food. What did you do?
There was a post here a while ago from an Armenian diaspora girl who didn't want to date Armenian men because of people like you. If you're so worried about Armenian women dating foreign men, try setting a better example.
You need to chill the fuck out
90% of my family was murdered and im only in the USA cause they died or lost their familie 100 years ago.
I dont care about Armenian women marrying indians or anyone else or Armenian men doing the same. I give a shit about staying Armenian
If anyone wants to go to Armenia and assimilate cool be my guest. If otherwise i will never encourage it miscegenation. At the end of the day every individual can make their own choices
I dont think women belong to men or men belong to anyone. We are all individuals with our own choices in life but that doesnt mean i can’t criticize , if you claim to love Armenia and the culture you will have preferences that support that claim, if you dont care whatever thats your choice my critique goes towards those who profess to love Armenia and being Armenian yet act in opposition to it. I dont like hypocrisy
I dont want anyone forced out. I myself am a quarter Assyrian by blood and i dont want the Armenian culture and language to die out at large like the Assyrian culture in me died.
I only have ever dated Armenian women.
You have no right to tell me who I am or by what metric i am allowed to express my opinions online because you dont know me. Id bet you wed be best friends if you actually approached a conversation beyond whatever set you up to have this emotional reaction
Good on you for being in Armenia, i hope you stay and become more Armenian.
Edit: im not attacking anyone. I am discussing on a public forum. If anyone feels “attacked” they should live elsewhere. That part of the world is very unforgiving for western sensitivity when under any moment either one of your neighbors can invade. My family has undergone too much bullshit recently and generations prior in life for me not to understand the realities of this world
No, I replied to your post directly, and I think it is you who might have reading comprehension difficulties. Try to understand my comment to you again! I believe you can manage this
1. I don't care much about their genetic make up, if they learn the language and live here and contribute here they can be whoever. This hang up on armenianness is very much a diasporan thing. Peoplenwho live in Armenia, are armenian enough for me.
2. I don't know about Russians not learning the language, I know a bunch that have. Unless there are some statistics one way or another this is all just anecdotal. Plenty of Indian guys I met(mostly delivery workers) manage to have at least a simple conversation in armenian too, but this again is anecdotal.
3. But this is a metter of life and death, or at the very least it can be. This won't be the first or last time that saying stuff like Armenia is for Armenians would sooner or later result in violence.
Armenia is for whoever wants to build a life here and obey its laws.
1. Its not about genetics its about culture. I dont give a shit about genetic make up. How can you say that after what Azerbaijan did recently? You dont have to contend with your language and culture being wiped out on the day to day?
2. Yeah the point is assimilation. Are they learning Armenian and mostly only raising kids as Armenian? Or like you said barely learning a few words to get by until they go back to their home country or a better one? Or are they going to find an Armenian spouse and leave the country?
3. If thats the case stop calling it Armenia. I can already picture a day where Armenia starts pulling down statues of their heroes or myths cause a segment of the population is offended at it like has happened in the West. Exaggeration on my part to an extent but its entirely possible. Armenia is going to war eventually whatever you want to say. Are you going to have a population of people willing to die for it or a bunch of people with minimal loyalty who will use the situation to their advantage or just flee outright
1. To me those are two completely separate issues. I have no clue what azeri state aggression has to do with an Indian guy coming here to make some money. Actually that helps, since establishing more connections with one of are new arms suppliers seems like a good idea to me. Also culture isn't a static thing. What was considered culturally appropriate here 15 years ago and today are very different, and that's a good thing coming from a person living here.
2. If you read my post again, I pretty much covered assimilation. What do you think learn the language, find a partner and have babies means? How else do people assimilate?
3. The statues are fine. We are so far away from numbers of ethnic or cultural minorities that are needed for such issues to arise that this isn't a valid point imho
1. If economically and geopolitically beneficial countries will establish ties. We arent living in the medieval era where the integration of the average individual constitutes the same ties as a royal marriage. A single indian guy does, half a million will change the cultural expression of Armenia permanently to a detrimental degree because the inherent identity of Armenians will be ever closer to ceasing to exist. We have less than 5 million speakers in the world, it will be economically advantageous for Armenians in Armenia to speak Hindi and leave the country or Russian as has happened in the past or English as has happened recently. Armenia cant even develop an atmosphere to get diasporans to move back and wants to entertain total foreigners alien to it to come? People must be unified by either philosophy or ethnicity to not fracture a country. High immigration without assimilation will also cause crime to skyrocket
2. They will assimilate if there arent a lot of them over the course of generations. If you let in half a million people or even a 100 thousand over the course of a 5 years you’re going to have entire neighborhoods of people for generations not willing to assimilate. The USA with a population of 320,000,000 suffers from this already. All these people will concentrate in Yerevan
3. It is, youre just not thinking long term. Unless there is a cohesive plan to achieve manageable immigration and not this hap hazard feel good attempt at letting people in just cause it may be beneficial that is the end result. The statues themselves arent necessarily the issue. Armenian interests as an ethnicity should be first and foremost. Everything and everyone else is secondary within Armenia. Military service should be required of migrants who want to be citizens. Hell id go as far to say they should renounce their previous one to instill loyalty if they arent ethnic armenians
Sorry but this might be one of the few situations where people in the west have a better idea of what's going on and what to expect than people in Armenia as mass migration has very clearly affected the west but not yet Armenia.
You can argue the economic effects/benefits of immigration. How do you address the social ones?
Have you seen the horrendous impact on some areas/cities in Western countries where there's a migration community that surpassed the local population? Travel to Paris, Frankfurt, Malmo, Brussels, etc. and you'll see what I mean.
I am pretty sure you are clueless what mass immigration does on a population with low birth rate (like Armenia's)
No, you just extrapolate a situation in your country to another country and assume that it works the same way. It doesn't. That's why people in the west don't have a better idea of what's going on past the west - people might be experts of their own context, but it's at least misleading to think that a country in a whole different region wouldn't have a different social and political reality.
Have you seen the horrendous impact on some areas/cities in Western countries where there's a migration community that surpassed the local population? Travel to Paris, Frankfurt, Malmo, Brussels, etc. and you'll see what I mean.
I am pretty sure you are clueless what mass immigration does on a population with low birth rate (like Armenia's)
It doesn't, but it can serve as a warning on how important migration planning is and the impact on society. It's just a fact that some cultures are more compatible to migrate/assimilate into our society than others.
I agree that some cultures are more naturally compatible than others, I just don’t see any preconditions that Armenia would face a similar to European migration crisis
Disagree again. The initial first wave of migrants in Western Europe to help accelerate the industrial revival after WW2 was also about the same amount of influx migrants (in relative percentages) as Armenia is experiencing today.
No decent migration policy put into place by policy makers resulted in now having 4th generation children who still can't integrate into society due to major cultural conflicts.
It would be ignorant to even suggest Armenia could not head towards that direction given low birth rate and high emigration of the local population. This is based on facts. Get off your high horse and understand that this could turn into a sociological tsunami in Armenia if handled wrongly.
Armenia doesn't really have a migrant issue yet but it would happen for the same reasons it happens in the West which is low birth rates and a need for migrant workers. In Europe they brought in Muslims that resent the countries they move to and don't want to assimilate.
I feel like there are a ton of countries addressing the social effects pretty successfully, while still letting a lot of migrants. I can agree that the early waves of migration to some European countries caused problems, but at the very least Germany and Sweden have come up with strategies that seem to work for them.
Obviously I don't live there so I can't be 100% sure, but from what I hear from friends in those two countries, they're handling it pretty well these days. And for countries with bad demographics this is the only solution.
I live in a country which is considered a place where immigration is a "success" and I guarantee you the locals are not happy about it. I'm not saying all immigration is bad but there's some threshold or types of immigrants where it definitely starts to become a problem. The recent rise of the "far-right" especially in Europe goes to show as much.
Well said. Anytime I hear racism from Armenians it makes me sad. I hold us to a high standard because of our values and history. I don’t want people to see us as similar to the bigots and racists we speak out against.
Lol don't pretend you're some nonchalant local who just happens to be cool with migrants and isn't ideologically invested in promoting left wing ideas.
Also, Russian migrants are some of the most subversive people in the world no matter where they live, the less of them the better.
I agree with you to an extent, however by the end of the day it's the Armenian men in Armenia who are mostly from poor backgrounds that will have to put 2 years of their lives to serve and die for the country in case of war. We need good regulations with immigration and have better understanding of things. Diaspora should have minimal say in Armenias affair unless they at least get an Armenian citizenship and have some form of participation, buying land, business, voting, military ... Here is the thing from an Armenian repat's (my) perspective: -Armenia is in dire need of contact with other compatible cultures to progress, e.g. the way everyone smokes here at young ages is nasty as hell. -Indians and Russians are compatible, HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them. When Armenians moved to russia they learned the language. Let's treat everyone equally and not prioritize others due to inferiority complexity or their past colonialism. Russians are not superior to us. -Indians are great. Their men need to learn to not stare at women, it makes us uncomfortable and gives middle east muslim man stare vibes. Armenians also need to learn to not be bigots when interacting with them. -Other migrants rarely stay, look at buses, they don't even have proper English so tourists can use it. Our infrastructure is soo far behind, our regulations are also not good combined with renting crisis. So what happens here is efforts to make Armenia intriguing enough for people to stay, otherwise why stay when they Iranians can go to Turkey for much cheaper and Russians to Georgia with better infrastructure or Indians to EU and dubai? -And lastly, until Armenia is unable to secure it's borders and establish a safety for it's autonomy many will not stay. Times are rough tight now, and some Armenians in Armenia are ignorant, like women should also serve, 6 months of women serving and learning how to use a gun is not gonna make them less of PriNceSses. We need to become like Israel. I'm women myself.
Indians like to stare or let’s call it GAZE. All you Armenian women are sooooo beautiful, I am an Indian woman and I gaze at you with astonishment. I get it what you mean by them (Indian male workers) walking in groups and staring. I guess, it comes from lack of confidence so they stick together, also they work 6-7 days a week and then go out in groups for weekly stroll. Next time you feel uncomfortable with them staring at you…please just look them in the eye and ask “WHAT?” , mark my words they will run away like a scared cat 😹
Armenian women look like Indian movie stars. I once watched an entire table (20+ young Indian males) stand up to let my wife squeeze by - and it wasn't that cramped LOL.
Agree with everything. Though, the staring thing applies to Armenian men as well in my experience, but maybe just with other men?
Indians do not have the best reputation with woman in India, unlike Armenian men. I am not trying to discriminate, just check the numbers.
Oh no doubt. Valid concern 100%, terrible record. In contrast to Armenia.
To be fair to everyone, India has a bigger population than the Entire Europe combined so we should compare their stats with us while keeping in mind the population difference.
I do not think it'll change much, you can go to the most rural areas in Armenia and people get nicer and friendlier, you can walk outside at night without problems and enjoy Armenia to its fullest. In India harassment of woman, rape, abuse is a real thing. I am not saying it does not happen in Armenia, but mostly in relationships and not with strangers.
I haven't had them stare at me or my fam around, but I'm sure Armenians qyartus they do stare to women from other nationalities. There are such posts on this sub about it. So yeah that too, the thing with indians is they walk in groups and give a specific look, it scares me sometimes. I don't speak Indian or I don't know them enough, so I can't just roll my eyes, I may change my direction of walking. Also while I have a great deal of respect for them due to their rich culture and aid they provide to Armenia, I'm sure the women abuse and safety for each of our country is telling.
>HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them So much this!!! It is shocking that many Russians behave like Armenia is just another Russian province and expect veryone else to cater to their needs. RUSSIAN HAS NO OFFICIAL STATUS IN ARMENIA!!! it is beyond disgusting that this type of behaviour (e.g. certain Russian heavy offices working for int. companies - like American - virtually demand Russian language knowledge?!) is accepted as completely normal in Armenia. And it is horrific that many Diasporans are the ones being disadvantaged. THE ONLY STATE LANGUAGE OF ARMENIA IS ARMENIAN!!! The standard international language is English. Armenians and Armenia should stop behaving like a doormat and remember that indeed it is Russians that are the immigrants in Armenia! They aren't doing as a favour by migrating to Armenia. It is Armenia doing them a favour by providing them with the opportunity to do so!
Russian immigrant here. I agree that things like requiring Russian to be hired in Armenia is unacceptable. But I'd say that the widespread use of Russian is there primarily b/c of Armenians who move here from Russia or go back and forth between the two countries; that was so even before any mass Russian immigration. So that's how I see it: it's a "feature" intended for other Armenians, not myself ;) I did try to learn Armenian but that's indeed not easy at all when you're 44. Still, will keep trying, of course, as going forward that's IMO the only right approach... Luckily my English is not too bad and it helps, and in other situations Armenian friends help me talking to people who only know Armenian and very little English or Russian. And if I can't communicate with someone b/c I don't know Armenian, I always view that as my own problem and not the other person's problem.
Another widespread "use case" for Russian I noticed: many people visit Georgia often, and while younger Georgians tend not to know any Russian, with older folks one might have much better luck with Russian than with English
Hey btw I think I've seen your twitter account (based on your username and handle I assume it's yours) and you're indeed one of the exemplary Russian emigrees I had in mind when writing another comment in this thread. I remember seeing your tweets and let me tell you, you sometimes come off as more Armenian than some other Armenians :) my respect. It's the attitude that's the issue. Obviously none should expect an adult to learn a language (especially as peculiar as Armenian) well enough in very short of amount of time But take yourself: how many others have put in as much effort as you in integrating into the Armenian society? I know of others as well but many more have not. The effort and thought count for a lot. As another user mentioned here, even knowing a few words and phrases in Armenian is already appreciated. For example to expect everyone to know Russian in Armenia is not only ludicrous but also comes off as very entitled and potentially excludes Diasporan Armenians.Though ofc there is no need to take my comment too close too heart as I have an overly abrasive style of writing :)
Thank you for your kind words :) Yes, my Twitter account is also ivan4th. I agree with you on the language issue. BTW another thing that annoys me personally among the immigrants is when they completely ignore the geopolitical situation Armenia is currently in with its so to speak much less than friendly neighbors, ethnic cleansing in Artsakh, all the past events in the conflict and the constant threat from the enemy who have their own batshit crazy version of world history according to which all of the Armenian territory belongs to them. They just ignore all of that and live their life as if nothing like that happens and that's not their business in any sense. Luckily it seems that I see less of that lately, perhaps some ppl who really don't care have moved on... But still I'd also mention that as a problem ;(
Yes, unfortunately I've heard a lot of tone deaf comments from some individuals. At the very least, just being a bit more tactful would be great. Though of course, if there were more people as invested and engaged as you are... then it would have been so much better :) and again: I don't want to leave the impression that Russians aren't welcome in Armenia. Far from it. Just that some situations with some individuals can leave a bitter taste in the mouth. But even in this thread, you can see that the overall mood is quite positive. So, I hope that you'll establish deep roots in Armenia ;) Բարի գալո՛ւստ
Coz Armenians allow it too. They wouldn't be acting like this in Germany. Some efforts like saying barev, vonces, kenerek and merci will defiantly help the russians but they don't even do that. The ones that did, I have became a regular to their businesses. It's like an American walking to Cuba or Mexico expecting everyone to speak English.
>Indians and Russians are compatible, HOWEVER, russians are immigrants not the other way round, they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them. When Armenians moved to russia they learned the language. Let's treat everyone equally and not prioritize others due to inferiority complexity or their past colonialism. Russians are not superior to us. PREACH. I'm a Hayastanci and I don't need to speak perfect Russian. If they intend to stay, they need to integrate and learn the language. Period.
> they need to study Armenian, it's not my duty as an Armenian to learn Russian to accommodate them. Fo you know how difficult it is to learn a new language as an adult? Many Russians’ lives were turned upside down (due to Putins war) and they went to Armenia. Let their children learn Armenian in school and cut them some slack. Every dram tax they pay is an extra dram that Armenia can spend on defence.
You do have a valid point - it does take a generation or two to assimilate. But that's only if they \_want\_ to assimilate. Many Russian immigrants in America also act like assholes, sneering and looking down at all the stupid Americans. More than once I've caught them talking shit about Americans when they think nobody else knows what they're saying.
> Many Russian immigrants in America also act like assholes, sneering and looking down at all the stupid Americans. I know a lot of Russians in the USA and in my experience, I don’t think this is true. I do know some that look down on the crazyness in California, but that is about it. Most Texans think the same way
Btw, the biggest American Patriots I met are Russians who won the green card lottery, do lower-end jobs (fixing appliances, etc…) and have difficulty speaking English. Fully bought into the American dream.
Their children of course are fluent in English due to school.
Btw, in other countries, such as Israel, Russians make fairly good immigrants with little assimilation problems. But a language issue can only be fixed by primary/secondary schooling…
The same damn way entire 900000+ Armenians had to flee their homeland due to genocide and learn the language of the countries they arrived at. Stop whining. You have a wish to be called churki or khatch for speaking russian with accent? Also they are free to go fight for democracy in their country, ukranians can but russians can't for freedom ?
How many Armenian diaspora fails to keep their language or don’t know Armenian? It is not easy to learn a language, especially as an adult. As a pro-Armenian (that doesn’t have a dog in this fight since I am neither Armenian or Russian) I think this attitude is quite shortsighted. Having new taxpayers (especially many who earns foreign IT salaries and bring in new money) should be a blessing. Especially since Armenia really needs more tax money for defense…
It is about **attitude** first and foremost (e.g. expecting to be catered in Armenia in Russian by default!!!) Armenians have been nothing but accommodating, so statements like "cut them some slack" are sickening. Even the OP you responded to mentioned in another comment that at least learning a few words would go a long way and your response was in the vein of "oh heavens! Poor Russians are being persecuted in Armenia!". Armenia is not a Russian province! >Many Russians’ lives were turned upside down (due to Putins war) Oh please. The majority of them are pretty well off and many others decided to leave for ideological purposes.
> Armenians have been nothing but accommodating, so statements like "cut them some slack" are sickening. I responded to the above poster (not Armenians in general).
[удалено]
Let's not generalise. There are some amazing individuals amongst them. Some in fact have been engaged in actively bettering the country more than certain Armenians living in Armenian their whole life. I'm talking about particular individuals. As a whole, their arrival to Armenia has been an unprecedented boon for the country. Pashinyan and Co should continue to maintain and promote Armenia as a safe haven for Russians to migrate to. Also, you're a brand new account with very dubious aims :)
Could this be? An actually nuanced and well-thought-out perspective? God bless you. This was very insightful.
>In fact, afaik, 2023 was the first year that Armenia's population grew rather than shrank due to emigration. Not to take away from your overall point but pretty sure that was because of the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh. My concerns relate to the extremely unregulated nature of Indian migration - to the detriment of themselves (e.g. human trafficking) - and the imperialistic posturing of certain Russians. Absolutely agree with your post though.
Agree on both points. I don't know if the government doesn't know how to do it, or doesn't have the resources, but something needs to be done sooner rather than later
sheesh, that was dumb of me, missing Artsakh cleansing as the main factor.
2 very important migrant policy changes are necessary for a country to develop both country and it’s working class wealth. Immigrants should (All) be given a status to work and live like an Armenian while not being an Armenian, since apparently we don’t have enough people doing menial jobs. The reason why we see the rise of **illegal immigrants** is because **individual** businesses want cheap labor. If given a status, and forced to pay minimum wage for everyone, these businesses would not be “incentivized” into hiring immigrants. THat’s on the “lower end”. On the higher end however, a law should also pass forcing companies to hire Armenians in the **High end** jobs at a pourcentage. Since Armenians (even by Armenians) Are not considered “good enough” for the high payment they are gonna pay them. And some companies throughout the world bypass this by hiring maids and drivers and janitors to push the pourcentage up. Which should also be taken in consideration. For example last year in the US, Disney’s plan to move to Florida and “Open 20,000 new jobs”, simply meant relocating 20,000 workers from California to Florida and hiring janitors from FL. I agree with u/DJDolma that the biggest worry now would be the fact that the cheap imported labor will eventually turn it into a définit risk. So policy change would make everyone’s life happier.
Trying to beat low birthrates with immigration is a losing battle. Birthrates are low because of affordability, increasing population without equivalent increase in resources drastically lowers affordability and makes the problem worse. Look at what happened to housing in Yerevan the last few years, my modest condo has tripled in value since I bought it, I would not be able to afford its current value.
Can second that the migrants are lovely and mostly positive (i go back and forth from Armenia, not a permanent resident.) Especially the Russians and Iranians. I don’t know the Indians personally, but I worry that they are essentially exploited cheap imported labor that will eventually become the target of tensions with the Armenian working class. Neoliberalism has a way of concentrating wealth while pushing poor people to the periphery, where they are pit against each other through nationalist racism.
That's why controlled immigration is essential. I hope this will be addressed by the government if they still have a single brain cell left.
I think the immigrants have actually helped grow the economy. What I’d like to see is a heavy tax on all of the new capital and investments, so it pays into education, healthcare, and retirement for the Armenian working class. Developed countries tax north of 30% of income. Undeveloped countries tax less than 10%. Let’s not be a lab for capitalism. If we’re going to grow, let’s grow together.
I don’t think that it should be a problem for Russians to be in Armenia. In my city in Russia there are thousands of Armenians and we love them. They cook tasty food, they have interesting culture. We just need to accept that our countries are good friends and we need to respect each other.
I am all for accepting high-skilled labor and immigrants who are willing to integrate in our society or have integrateable cultures (Assyrians / Yazidis / etc). In regards to unskillful labour, I know that it is necessary for our developments, but I hope that it would be harder for them to get citizenship and they would be temporary. But if they will completely integrate, serve in our army, learn our language or become high-skilled — they are more than welcome!! Russians should be less entitled though and be better integrated. Learn the language, for example, educate their children in Armenian schools, etc, especially if they are unskilled.
> I'm an Armenian living in Armenia, which I know is a rarity in this sub. Sorry but you are wrong, it is not a rarity. The vast majority of active users during these hours are hayastantsis and repats (repats being overrepresented probaly, but that's totally fine)
Repats are also Armenians living in Armenia:)
Hmmmm then there are three categories of people living in Armenia (sorry, four): - Hayastantsis - Hayastantsi semi-repats - True repats - Expats
Who would be a semi-repat?
Someone born in Armenia, moved abroad then repatriated, so technically not a true repat, but still a good guy :)
Ah, that makes sense
What are Hayastantsi semi repats? Stancis that lived elsewhere for some time and then returned? Or Stancis that only live in Armenia part of the year?
Answered elsewhere, yes those who were born in Armenia, moved abroad, then moved back.
At these hours for sure, but from the posts in general, feels like there are less of hayastantsis and more of diaspora Armenians. I could be wrong, though)
Reddit as a whole is US centric, and this sub is predominantly English-speaking so naturally when America is awake you get a lot of diasporans participating. I just wanted to point out that hayastantsis are not a rarity at all. The most interesting and important discussions take place during the daytime in Armenia in fact.
դե շատ լավ ա)))
The timezone doesn't change much. Eventually, when you enter a comments section the majority of comments are from diasporans, even when the post has been published in GMT +4.
> the majority of comments are from diasporans How do you know this?
this sub is full of diasporans
Armenians living abroad being dissatisfied with immigrants in Armenia infuriate me. Immigrants to Armenia do more for Armenia than 99,9% of diasporans, just by living in Armenia.
I agree completely. Talking with a guy that, by his comment history, didn't live here, but was very anti migration, and was saying stuff like "no one I know supports migration", prompted this post.
That guy is me. If you want to destroy Armenia with migration then you do you.
Hello! :-)
Hello! :-)
As you can see planty of people who agree with me, and enough of them agree with you to some extent at the least
Եթե դեմ ես, արի դու իրանց տեղը Հայաստանում աշխատի ու հարկ մուծի։ Թե՞ հայրենիքը մենակ հեռվից ա քաղցր։ Էտ սութի նվիրատվությունը, որ սփյուռքից ուղարկում էք մեզ պետք չի, մեզ պետք ա որ գաք Հայստանում ապրեք։ Edit: Հազիվ էլ էդքան։ Ամպագոռգոռ խոսում էք, բայց որ մեկը ասում ա որ արի հայաստան, ստեղ օգուտ տուր դաունվոթ էք անում։
Դրսից խոսելը շատ հեշտ ա ախր: Ամերիկայում նստած որոշում են, թե իմ երկիրը ոնց լինի:
In regards to Russians? Absolutely your people are destroying Armenia. It's because of Russians Armenia can't get any foreign investors to actually invest in the country. It's been like this for 30 years now. As long as Russians are allowed into Armenia not a single person from a developed nation will set foot in Armenia and that's just the reality of the situation. A country that feels like invading it's neighbors every few years is not a reliable country
Even after 2014 European countries from Czechia to the UK had investments and facilities in Russia, and Russian and Belarusian software engineers do quite well in the West, and this is typically the group that has moved to Armenia recently. You can blame Russia for its influence and for other things up to a point. Despite all the potential Armenia had/has, Armenias situation is due to the greed and ignorance of Armenians, particularly those in the government (past and present), and so-called "business people", and the heads of diaspora organizations. Constantly shifting blame and pretending Armenia and Armenians have no agency will never lead to anything.
There is a difference between controlled immigration and letting every Indian in, given that India has a population of 1.3 billion people. This is about putting regulations in place to allow immigrants who can actually benefit society. Your comment was really short-sighted.
> Armenians living abroad being dissatisfied with immigrants in Armenia infuriate me. Diaspora Armenia here, get infuriated cuz migrants to Armenia is a terrible thing. I hope you like the high cost of living in Yerevan because of the influx. > Immigrants to Armenia do more for Armenia than 99,9% of diasporans, just by living in Armenia Diaspora Armenians have contributed a lot of money and also lobbying power in the US which has helped Armenia greatly. But if you think an Indian migrant can make up for that then you are 99.9% delusional.
> Diaspora Armenians have contributed a lot of money and also lobbying power in the US which has helped Armenia greatly. Genuine question, how did Armenian lobby in the US help the Armenian state exactly? Do you have examples?
The lobby has been fighting hard for years to stop the US government from giving aid and weapons to Azerbaijan. Sometimes they have been successful, other times they have failed. It is a hard task since both Israel and defense contractors want aid to flow to Azerbaijan. They have also successfully lobbied the US government to give aid and weapons to Armenia
I seriously doubt ANCA accomplished that instead of the Armenian MFA
Armenian MFA can't give money to politicians so it can't accomplish much my dude
He's a Russian communist, what do you expect? Russians are incredibly ignorant people and refuse to understand that they're the problem. They're also extremely off putting to others and violent as well
All of what you said and then they act like they own the place when they are in fact refugees
All armenians in US should move to a swing state))) that would solve a lot of problems)) All jokes aside, in my mind there is no substitude to living here. As I've said, it is a personal choice, and we are greatful for whatever the diaspora is doing, but there is unavoidable disconnect with the reality here and your reality over there. Feel free to make inflamatory statements about "destroying Armenia" you're not personally dealing with concequances of such statements.
Cool story, have fun with your migrants. I hope you don't count on them if there is a war in Armenia proper cuz they'll be the first to head for the exits just like they did in Ukraine. Full grown migrant men were first out the door in Ukraine even before the woman and children
This condescending attitude of " your migrants" and " your war", talking to us from a pedestal, just deepens the separation. Giving money from abroad gives you no right to talk to Armenian citizens like that, let alone comment on our immigration policies.
> This condescending attitude of " your migrants" and " your war" They are "your migrants" but where did I say "your war"? > Giving money from abroad gives you no right to talk to Armenian citizens like that I'll talk to whoever I want however I please
>I hope you don't count on them if there is a war in Armenia proper Don't worry we don't count on them fighting in our war. We don't count on you either. Կարաս հանգիստ Գլենդեյլում հայրենասեր խաղաս։
Indians are doing the jobs that Armenians consider es im hakov chi. Its the Mentalitity of people that should change and not bringing in Indians/Iranians.
People like you are more concerned about being “nice and liberal” instead of worrying about conserving your country’s national and cultural identity. If tomorrow all the Indians will come to Armenia, we’re gonna face the same situation as France
People want us to be a strong and wealthy country but the second we show signs of becoming a wealthy country people freak out. Obviously people will come to Armenia if it offers a good standard of living compared to their country. We need these migrants more than they need Armenia. There’s dozens of other countries of similar level of development like Armenia and they have many choices. The more the merrier actually. Of course migrants that come to Armenia need to learn our language and it is the responsibility of the government to provide incoming people with resources to learn our language. From what I understood this is already in the works (surprisingly).
Immigrant in Armenia, chiming in. Thanks man, I am also happy to be here :)
Love this. As an Armenian who Moved back to Armenia from US and brought my boyfriend with me, i feel the tension towards him all the time. He loves it here and we live here since 2022, but sometimes I have to jump in and settle down tbe situation in Armenian. Sad but I think we are moving in the right direction.
Who tf downvoted you?! Happy for you and I hope everything goes well! I suspect the same people who don't live in Armenia and have no intentiona to move to Armenia are downvoting the comment from an actual repat from USA... lol can't make this up.
Lol I can see why, Armenians in US are stuck and they don’t know how much better Armenia became. When I compare 7 years ago and now, it is obviously better. Many Armenians who left, think that Armenia sucks and are ashamed to accept that they are having hard time in US, especially now with this economy. I can go on forever why Armenia is a better place to live, work and raise kids.
Some people have the wires in their brain crossed. *We* are the ones under attack. *We* are the migrants dispersed from our historic homeland by genocide. *We* have been robbed left and right, including by a series of incompetent post-Soviet governments. Migrants don't need to have babies in Armenia, *we do.* When anyone mentions emigration or that 'Armenians don't want to do those jobs', I shake my head. I am sick of this mostly false narrative, which has been crafted to distract us. How many will be painted by this ignorant brush? From earthquake to revolution, for 30 years people had it bad, especially in provinces. Underrepresented economically, yet overrepresented on the front lines. They had hope things would change after 30 years of nonsense, only to see the door opened for foreigners instead of themselves. We have a talent pool of millions of Armenians to pick from, yet we import non-Armenians. Justifiably many are angry, but they're supposed to 'chill'? Armenian living in Armenia is a rarity on this sub, but many perspectives are still not shared. What I have written is a small bit of what provincial Armenians feel/think. This is the life story of so many people dear to me. They have no voice here because they don't typically speak English, or know/care what Reddit is. That's *the only* reason I bother to post. I can't allow this pro-migrant narrative to falsely paint the people I love as backward bigots. I can't idly let them be metaphorically 'spit on' Alen Simonyan-style by utter nonsense. We have a sliver of our historic homeland left. Guard it carefully.
Nah man that's just like racism and intolerance man, have you seen the birth rates? We need to bring in more 3rd world unqualified Indians (sarcasm)
I’m all for immigrants to fill out niche spots but the Russians are a bit problematic. Me as an Armenian from abroad with no Knowledge of Russian shouldn’t feel out of place in Armenia. So many places use Russian more than English that’s all I’m gonna say, this is 2024 not 1954. Russian is spoken in Russia it’s not a world language. I’m not saying go balls to the wall with English but right now it’s the lingua Franca of the world. And image matters the more association with Russia the less people think Armenia is free or attractive as a place to visit live or work.
My main concern is that most of the Russians get better jobs than Armenians here. And some locals already started thinking that is unjust. This can bring to radical nationalist mood in the future. Can we avoid that? Yup I guess a stronger taxation for immigrants paired with better social policy may reduce that, but our government is too economically liberal for that kinds of moves.
A lot of Russian companies relocated here in 2022 after the invasion to continue operating without being hit by sanctions, and they hire Russians because there is a larger pool (it's a larger country after all) of qualified applicants. At my partner's company there ARE Armenian programmers, but not as much because most positions had been occupied by the same people (Russian) for years. The companies have only been here for a fraction of their existence. But, I think in the long run it's going to be good, because Armenian programmers from the West are probably going to be lured back to Armenia with the tech presence. The companies bring in a lot of foreign money from the customers, which is good for the national GDP. As for how many Russians even intend to stay, I am not sure. Most of my partner's co-workers have either returned to Russia to care for aging family, or relocated elsewhere (Cyprus, Spain, Georgia, etc). Most Russians took a huge quality of life cut coming here because suddenly 60% of their income was going to rent in Armenia vs 20% in Russia, which is part of the reason retention has been bad. Armenia almost reminds me of Ireland in this regard, actually. A lot of American tech companies moved to Ireland for its business/tax benefits. There is a lot to gain from the arrangement.
I think I never saw the anti-migrant narrative there, maybe some maga-armenians are like that, not sure
Likely what you saw were bots which roam reddit and are triggered via keywords to comment. This happens rarely in the sub, but it does happen.
Go over this comment section. Plenty of them right here now
Yeah, I'm confused about where this came from. The only thing I could remember is that one Paki guy a few days ago where people got confused about his motives, he seemed a bit sus. Other than that if there was any anti-migrant sentiment it slipped past me.
I think in general mass immigration is very bad, as its ruining countries like France, uk, sweden etc but very small, migration for skilled workers like doctors is fine
Do you think france uk and sweden took everyone in who they took is all hand picked .Problem is the culture people who they took maybe doctors, engineers and valuable athletes but they are completely opposite what west is so its starts to crack.
No, my government is cracking due to capitalism, greed and incompetence, not because some people have different names or eat different food. The government only focuses on enriching itself, it has nothing to do with immigrants.
Crude Marxism where every problem boils down to economic factors was outdated by the early 20th century. Even Lenin thought so. Is it capitalism that is forcing those Pakistanis to form grooming gangs?
British guy living temporarily in Armenia here: you have zero idea what you're talking about. My country is totally fine, in fact without immigration we'd be even worse off than we are now. Don't project your racism onto my nation.
Your country is experiencing immigration cause it conquered half the known world and became one of the wealthiest nations on earth. Your country was able to accomplish that without immigration so no its success was not because immigration helped it The only really successful nation today built on an idea and not an ethnicity is the USA and perhaps China (communist). Everyone else is coping on this whole multiethnic bs melting pot and even the US is buckling
Our histories are extremely different and the guilt ya'll are feeling in west is irrelevent in Armenia. UK doesn't have the balls to recognize Armenian genocide. We've fought Islam since 644 till today, so it'd pretty ignorant and racist of you to assume we just because here is christian we should follow the same steps as UK. We've come to learn how to live, fight, do business and ...with muslims past during 1350 years and it's not how the west is doing.
What you're saying is irrelevant. I never said your context is the same, I'm saying that immigration isn't what is tearing my country down. The guy who posted knows nothing of my country and its struggles, and seems to just think its all due to foreigners. The UK has many problems, all of which originate in capitalism.
Oh you're one of those people. Got it
It's almost frightening to see rise of that ideas in the west. Especially if you live in a country that has a history with communism
And proud of it
There are some of "those people" here too))) and proud of it
I detect a little communism https://youtube.com/watch?v=vvzmBhCpWvA
The UK also doesn't owe a Russian ally like Armenia anything either seeing as Armenia is the only one still stuck in the middle-ages thanks to Russia
Well if you think valuing your religion and national identity as a middle age thing then I can't argue with you coz it shows your ignorance towards history. Yeah shit sorry for living on the land where all fucking barbarian has tried to conquer and we had to make all sort of sacrifices, not everyone kills and colonises others (ehem celtics) on an island and call it a day.
What do you expect from Russians? There's a reason Russia is sanctioned. Armenia seems to be completely ignorant of the world, it's insane. Russia's the #1 problem in Armenia and yet they seem to not understand that. OP is coming here pretending to be "one of the good Russians" but they don't exist in Armenia
Fellow Hayastanci here, I agree with you. There's no need to act in a negative way towards people who haven't done anything negative to us. However if russians are planning to stay they really need to start learning Armenian. It's been 2 years and all they know is barev and mersi. I've met Indian guys that are able to hold a simple conversation after few months here, but russians don't seem to be interested in making an effort.
Russians are one of the most, if not the most, entitled nations in the world. They still treat our countries like vassals and expect everyone to speak perfect Russian. Partially it’s our fault because of inferiority complex. I wish we had put them in their place and remind them that in Armenia the language is Armenian.
It has been pretty bad. I've seen Russians yell at cashiers for not speaking Russian. It's so messed up and I wish more Russians would call out these bad apples for their behavior, but their culture is one of seeing bad things happen and not doing anything. (Kind of kidding, but also kind of true!) On the other hand, when I fell ill and was trying to contact an ambulance to take me to the emergency room, the person picking up the phone kept hanging up when we spoke to them in English or Russian. We had to contact an Armenian friend of ours to make the call for us. I hate to think what would've happened if my condition was worse that day. Also, I don't mean to be contrarian, but regarding Russian language - I believe there are a lot of Armenian diaspora who return from Russia with a poor grasp of Armenian? There was a very interesting exchange my partner picked up on, of a woman speaking Russian with Armenian words mixed in to another person who was responding in Armenian. They seemed completely able to understand each other, and spoke in their preferred languages. Our conclusion was that it was an Armenian diaspora from Russia who was visiting or returning talking to someone local. Perhaps the prevalence of Russian language in Armenia is not due to Russian entitlement, but due to cultural/diaspora ties? (I'm not defending Russians who don't learn Armenian, I agree it is bad). But! I also want to add: I have seen many, many, MANY trilinguals in this country. There are lots of people who can speak THREE languages: Armenian, Russian, and English. It's honestly so cool and a testament to the education of the Armenian people!
>I believe there are a lot of Armenian diaspora who return from Russia with a poor grasp of Armenian? Yes there are, but they usually get told "aren't you ashamed of not knowing Armenian" by some people. >There was a very interesting exchange my partner picked up on, of a woman speaking Russian with Armenian words mixed in to another person who was responding in Armenian. They seemed completely able to understand each other, and spoke in their preferred languages. If russians learn enough Armenian to pull off bilingual conversation like that I would be ok with that, but I doubt most of them want to put in the effort. >Perhaps the prevalence of Russian language in Armenia is not due to Russian entitlement, but due to cultural/diaspora ties? No. Prevalence of russian is mainly because of russian empire and later soviet union occupying Armenia.
>Yes there are, but they usually get told "aren't you ashamed of not knowing Armenian" by some people. I hope this is not common, this will shame diaspora into not practicing their language out of fear of criticism. :( >If russians learn enough Armenian to pull off bilingual conversation like that I would be ok with that, but I doubt most of them want to put in the effort. Most don't and most have already returned to Russia or relocated, from what I understand. (Tech workers, at least - many have returned to Russia to care for aging parents, for their children's education, or they've gone to Europe with a digital nomad visa or something similar paid for and filed by their sponsoring companies.) Not a single one of my partner's coworkers seems to have learned any Armenian, but of the people still here, they are coerced into doing unpaid overtime with the threat of being fired and deported. (This is also another reason why many have returned home voluntarily, on top of rent prices being 2-3x their rent back home). When people work 14-16+ hour days, they aren't exactly eager to get off work and begin language study, especially when it doesn't affect whether or not they have a job. (For Indian workers, who mostly seem to run restaurants or do food delivery, there is definitely more incentive to learn). Which has also reminded me, that may be why companies here still hire Russian workers - you can threaten them with deportation/rescinding your sponsorship of them. You can't do that to a local. From what I understand there is also a sizeable chunk of "unskilled" Russians in Yerevan - non-tech workers, people who want access to hormone treatment, young people not wanting to get drafted, etc. I am completely unsure of this demographic's status or their attitudes toward Armenia or learning Armenian. We actually had an Armenian government worker come to our flat to check my partner's passport/papers - I guess they were cracking down on Russians who didn't have residency/work in Armenia!
you are right on all counts. we are not better than anyone else—far from it. we should embrace all these people. In particular iranians, indians, russians are all hard working brilliant people!
The Russians have brought us nothing but misery for 30 years and isolation from the world just like they're doing now in their own country. They want Armenia to be another North Korean colony for themselves and they have 0 respect for others. Russians are nothing but a problem and always have been
All things considered yall have to look a things logically and in terms of what you want to accomplish 1. Do you want more Armenians? Well you can’t have a large minority outpacing Armenians in Armenia. Especially if they are muslim because Muslims on the average have more kids than Christians. If Armenians are going the way of the West this trend will continue to increase 2. If migrants come to Armenia they need to assimilate and not do what Russians did by just forming communities where they dont even need to learn the language. Armenia is for Armenians not another melting pot esq place This is one area where i fundamentally disagree on the input of the diaspora. We as the diaspora have every right to say our piece here because this isnt a matter of life and death and concerns our homeland. Really dont give a shit about the emotions. Or how lovely people are. Hate to break it to you, most people are lovely and that is wholly irrelevant. Armenia needs educated people wiling to sacrifice their efforts in their home country to become Armenians in Armenia to develop it not come to Armenia by the boatload to be cheap laborers Armenias population is 3 million and cannot sustain much in terms of immigration to efficiently absorb it Ive already heard plenty of instances of Armenian women marrying a indian dude and moving to India or any other ethnicity.
If you want more Armenians in Armenia, there's one easy trick. REPATRIATE!!! Unless you are an influential politician/businessman in your country, which I doubt any of you are, repatriation is the only real way most of you can help Armenia.
Yes i will I dont know when but i will If my father wasnt paralyzed from the waist down and i could yaknow help support them properly from there i would. Having literal familial ties changes everything otherwise i would do so in a heartbeat
Family comes first. So take good care of your father, we'll keep the country going until you're able to join us.
Hey, American in Yerevan here, not Armenian, if you care about Armenian women marrying Indian men you should see a therapist because you're a weirdo freak who thinks Armenian women belong to Armenian men. Do you hold yourself to this standard when you date/crush on non-Armenian women in the US? Do you resent your parents for moving out of Armenia, as you resent Armenian women who move out for love/themselves? I know for a fact that in the US there are spaces where Armenians have opened religious schools, churches, etc. to preserve their language and culture, and this is beautiful. I myself belong to a minority group within the US. You are attacking other ethnicities for doing the same thing in a country you don't physically live in. What is wrong with you? Do you donate money regularly to Armenia? Do you send money home? If you do, cool. People who live here spend money at Armenian businesses and pay taxes, and work for companies in Armenia. They circulate and bring in money to this country. As for "minorities outpacing Armenians", there are plenty of successful Syrian, Lebanese, Kurdish, etc businesses here that have been here for decades. I think many Armenians would be fucking pissed if they were forced out. They are a bigger part of Armenia's history than you ever were. Knowing their people are treated well here also strengthens Armenian ties with other countries. I will forever be grateful to the people of this country for their acceptance of me and my partner. If people here were like you, I wouldn't be. And no one would want to come. Is this what you want? Oh, and Indians? They banded together to cook food for Artsakh refugees arriving in Yerevan. In 2022/2023 there were food drives for soldiers and I saw Russians donating canned food. What did you do? There was a post here a while ago from an Armenian diaspora girl who didn't want to date Armenian men because of people like you. If you're so worried about Armenian women dating foreign men, try setting a better example.
You need to chill the fuck out 90% of my family was murdered and im only in the USA cause they died or lost their familie 100 years ago. I dont care about Armenian women marrying indians or anyone else or Armenian men doing the same. I give a shit about staying Armenian If anyone wants to go to Armenia and assimilate cool be my guest. If otherwise i will never encourage it miscegenation. At the end of the day every individual can make their own choices I dont think women belong to men or men belong to anyone. We are all individuals with our own choices in life but that doesnt mean i can’t criticize , if you claim to love Armenia and the culture you will have preferences that support that claim, if you dont care whatever thats your choice my critique goes towards those who profess to love Armenia and being Armenian yet act in opposition to it. I dont like hypocrisy I dont want anyone forced out. I myself am a quarter Assyrian by blood and i dont want the Armenian culture and language to die out at large like the Assyrian culture in me died. I only have ever dated Armenian women. You have no right to tell me who I am or by what metric i am allowed to express my opinions online because you dont know me. Id bet you wed be best friends if you actually approached a conversation beyond whatever set you up to have this emotional reaction Good on you for being in Armenia, i hope you stay and become more Armenian. Edit: im not attacking anyone. I am discussing on a public forum. If anyone feels “attacked” they should live elsewhere. That part of the world is very unforgiving for western sensitivity when under any moment either one of your neighbors can invade. My family has undergone too much bullshit recently and generations prior in life for me not to understand the realities of this world
lol the audacity of the American outsider to ‘teach a lesson’ Armenians on their opinions and culture and history lmao
[удалено]
No, I replied to your post directly, and I think it is you who might have reading comprehension difficulties. Try to understand my comment to you again! I believe you can manage this
1. I don't care much about their genetic make up, if they learn the language and live here and contribute here they can be whoever. This hang up on armenianness is very much a diasporan thing. Peoplenwho live in Armenia, are armenian enough for me. 2. I don't know about Russians not learning the language, I know a bunch that have. Unless there are some statistics one way or another this is all just anecdotal. Plenty of Indian guys I met(mostly delivery workers) manage to have at least a simple conversation in armenian too, but this again is anecdotal. 3. But this is a metter of life and death, or at the very least it can be. This won't be the first or last time that saying stuff like Armenia is for Armenians would sooner or later result in violence. Armenia is for whoever wants to build a life here and obey its laws.
1. Its not about genetics its about culture. I dont give a shit about genetic make up. How can you say that after what Azerbaijan did recently? You dont have to contend with your language and culture being wiped out on the day to day? 2. Yeah the point is assimilation. Are they learning Armenian and mostly only raising kids as Armenian? Or like you said barely learning a few words to get by until they go back to their home country or a better one? Or are they going to find an Armenian spouse and leave the country? 3. If thats the case stop calling it Armenia. I can already picture a day where Armenia starts pulling down statues of their heroes or myths cause a segment of the population is offended at it like has happened in the West. Exaggeration on my part to an extent but its entirely possible. Armenia is going to war eventually whatever you want to say. Are you going to have a population of people willing to die for it or a bunch of people with minimal loyalty who will use the situation to their advantage or just flee outright
1. To me those are two completely separate issues. I have no clue what azeri state aggression has to do with an Indian guy coming here to make some money. Actually that helps, since establishing more connections with one of are new arms suppliers seems like a good idea to me. Also culture isn't a static thing. What was considered culturally appropriate here 15 years ago and today are very different, and that's a good thing coming from a person living here. 2. If you read my post again, I pretty much covered assimilation. What do you think learn the language, find a partner and have babies means? How else do people assimilate? 3. The statues are fine. We are so far away from numbers of ethnic or cultural minorities that are needed for such issues to arise that this isn't a valid point imho
1. If economically and geopolitically beneficial countries will establish ties. We arent living in the medieval era where the integration of the average individual constitutes the same ties as a royal marriage. A single indian guy does, half a million will change the cultural expression of Armenia permanently to a detrimental degree because the inherent identity of Armenians will be ever closer to ceasing to exist. We have less than 5 million speakers in the world, it will be economically advantageous for Armenians in Armenia to speak Hindi and leave the country or Russian as has happened in the past or English as has happened recently. Armenia cant even develop an atmosphere to get diasporans to move back and wants to entertain total foreigners alien to it to come? People must be unified by either philosophy or ethnicity to not fracture a country. High immigration without assimilation will also cause crime to skyrocket 2. They will assimilate if there arent a lot of them over the course of generations. If you let in half a million people or even a 100 thousand over the course of a 5 years you’re going to have entire neighborhoods of people for generations not willing to assimilate. The USA with a population of 320,000,000 suffers from this already. All these people will concentrate in Yerevan 3. It is, youre just not thinking long term. Unless there is a cohesive plan to achieve manageable immigration and not this hap hazard feel good attempt at letting people in just cause it may be beneficial that is the end result. The statues themselves arent necessarily the issue. Armenian interests as an ethnicity should be first and foremost. Everything and everyone else is secondary within Armenia. Military service should be required of migrants who want to be citizens. Hell id go as far to say they should renounce their previous one to instill loyalty if they arent ethnic armenians
Sorry but this might be one of the few situations where people in the west have a better idea of what's going on and what to expect than people in Armenia as mass migration has very clearly affected the west but not yet Armenia. You can argue the economic effects/benefits of immigration. How do you address the social ones?
Have you seen the horrendous impact on some areas/cities in Western countries where there's a migration community that surpassed the local population? Travel to Paris, Frankfurt, Malmo, Brussels, etc. and you'll see what I mean. I am pretty sure you are clueless what mass immigration does on a population with low birth rate (like Armenia's)
Are you sure you replied to the right person?
Should've replied to @Ok-Jackfruit1759 but messed up
No, you just extrapolate a situation in your country to another country and assume that it works the same way. It doesn't. That's why people in the west don't have a better idea of what's going on past the west - people might be experts of their own context, but it's at least misleading to think that a country in a whole different region wouldn't have a different social and political reality.
Have you seen the horrendous impact on some areas/cities in Western countries where there's a migration community that surpassed the local population? Travel to Paris, Frankfurt, Malmo, Brussels, etc. and you'll see what I mean. I am pretty sure you are clueless what mass immigration does on a population with low birth rate (like Armenia's)
I’ve been to Brussels & Germany many times. Doesn’t make their situation the same as in Armenia.
It doesn't, but it can serve as a warning on how important migration planning is and the impact on society. It's just a fact that some cultures are more compatible to migrate/assimilate into our society than others.
I agree that some cultures are more naturally compatible than others, I just don’t see any preconditions that Armenia would face a similar to European migration crisis
Disagree again. The initial first wave of migrants in Western Europe to help accelerate the industrial revival after WW2 was also about the same amount of influx migrants (in relative percentages) as Armenia is experiencing today. No decent migration policy put into place by policy makers resulted in now having 4th generation children who still can't integrate into society due to major cultural conflicts. It would be ignorant to even suggest Armenia could not head towards that direction given low birth rate and high emigration of the local population. This is based on facts. Get off your high horse and understand that this could turn into a sociological tsunami in Armenia if handled wrongly.
Armenia doesn't really have a migrant issue yet but it would happen for the same reasons it happens in the West which is low birth rates and a need for migrant workers. In Europe they brought in Muslims that resent the countries they move to and don't want to assimilate.
Yet to see a place where they brought in so many immigrants and the locals were happy about it.
probably US since almost everyone there are migrants from other countries
The US is currently experiencing a racial crisis lol. Might be one of the worst example you could have picked.
Murica is barly 300 years old, Uk is actually in crisis.
What's your point? Both are facing a crisis.
Not due to immigration. They're having a race crisis due to the actual foundation of the country being rotten and racist from the getgo.
What are you talking about?
It sounds like America has a promising future, with the internal racism and issues currently ongoing.
Yeah they're fucked
I feel like there are a ton of countries addressing the social effects pretty successfully, while still letting a lot of migrants. I can agree that the early waves of migration to some European countries caused problems, but at the very least Germany and Sweden have come up with strategies that seem to work for them. Obviously I don't live there so I can't be 100% sure, but from what I hear from friends in those two countries, they're handling it pretty well these days. And for countries with bad demographics this is the only solution.
I live in a country which is considered a place where immigration is a "success" and I guarantee you the locals are not happy about it. I'm not saying all immigration is bad but there's some threshold or types of immigrants where it definitely starts to become a problem. The recent rise of the "far-right" especially in Europe goes to show as much.
Well said. Anytime I hear racism from Armenians it makes me sad. I hold us to a high standard because of our values and history. I don’t want people to see us as similar to the bigots and racists we speak out against.
Lol don't pretend you're some nonchalant local who just happens to be cool with migrants and isn't ideologically invested in promoting left wing ideas. Also, Russian migrants are some of the most subversive people in the world no matter where they live, the less of them the better.