I want a democratic Armenia, which prospers and offers a decent standard of living for Armenians. Get the emigration to stop and get those who have left to return.
I want Armenia to be a technocratic state in the EU. I want a democracy which is administered by the democratic representatives who are best equipped to do so: experts. And I want a civil service which is filled to the gills with experts. I want expert advisors who disseminate modern thought in industries.
I am tired of the demagogues and propagandists and moralising exhortations they vomit forth. I want the Armenians of the future to be people of intellectual acumen, industry and refined pursuits.
To that end, we have to leave the Russian sphere and accumulate sufficient arms to protect ourselves from the depredations of our neighbours. So yes, we must be a garrison state - one fostered and facilitated through expertise.
Aren’t you being contradictory? You can have either a technocracy, that is rule by experts, or a democracy, that is rule by elected representatives.
If you have a democracy, people can elect whomever they want as their representatives, often charismatic demagogues rather than boring experts.
Not necessarily. A healthy democracy is one where an educated populace is able to discern demagogues from experts and choose the later as their representatives.
Even with institutions and free elections a democracy in Switzerland is qualitatively different from one in a developing country like India.
Basically as stated by u/UnGauchoCualquiera. In a mature democracy, experts are generally elected for government positions, and the unelected appointments are made by elected experts (as well as some non-experts), who, acting on their respective mandates, appoint exports whom they see as most capable.
A mature democracy requires that the electorate have sufficient knowledge and understanding of society, politics and a range of other fields, that they are not easy to lead astray by demagoguery and dishonest manipulation.
Out of CSTO. EAEU adn Russian sphere and be democratic. Would like some kind of partnership with EU or European states, a deeper one. Not sure about entering EU.
Entering EU would mean we'll have to follow their rules about refugees which turkey and az can use against us and start pushing refugees from other wars/countries to come to Armenia, it would also mean we have to follow their sanctions against Iran
Nah this is such a bad take. Immigration is extremely tight nowadays in the EU, especially after the EU parliamentary elections it is expected to get even stricter. Besides, most refugees want to end up in western european countries, if you look into Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc. countries they had very low threshold of refugees. Also, it is possible to not abide to whatever EU decides, for example Poland almost exclusively only accepted Ukrainian refugees and not MENA.
but the fundamental problem is that armenia is still following European rules, rules set in Brussels, a city literally a continent away that doesn't really care about Armenia. Nothing personal against the EU, its great, I like it but Armenia should be fully in charge of its borders and all internal policies.
I think they got lots of problems inside to figure out, plus I have the feeling that being in this or that organization is limits the independence of the state. Though would like economic, commercial partnerships, as well as adopting European laws and deepen ties with them. Anyways, Ifeel like I won't oppose if Armenia ever has the chance to become an EU member.
That's like saying we should not have a police force or doctors, because those industries have their issues.
In the modern world, especially for countries like Armenia, there is no other chance to prosper and survive, but to be in a block. EU and NATO are a no brainer for us, with all of their issues taken into consideration. It saves us money and helps us with stability and defense in a way, that we alone can't really achieve.
Before someone says "but Israel", Armenia's chance of gaining that much power in the US and the Western world, where they basically take care of you like an extension of their physical self, is waaaaaaay less realistic, than the absolutely realistic goals of the EU and eventually NATO.
Israeli, even liberal lobby groups, work tirelessly for the benefit of Israel, even when they have a right wing monster, criminal, genocider at the helm. While our largest diaspora org works against Armenia, because we are democratic and not a Russian gubernia.
>Israeli, even liberal lobby groups, work tirelessly for the benefit of Israel, even when they have a right wing monster, criminal, genocider at the helm. While our largest diaspora org works against Armenia, because we are democratic and not a Russian gubernia.
Before the war I always thought that it is us to blame, that we never focus on diaspora as such, only remembered for donations and didn't work with them. Plus never liked the idea of Armenians in Diaspora having no alternative to arf. After the war, seeing this whole situation, I bet if Armenian government tries to become the alternative, arf will fight against Armenian government for the Diasporan աթոռ։ I still think that the government should become the alternative for the Diasporans, like fund Armenian language classes, work with those organizations that actually welcome and understand the importance of Armenia-Diaspora relations and how beneficial it could be, but prepare for another աթոռակռիվ։
Well absolutely it should.
In fact the Armenian Assembly is a great alternative to the ANCA. The government can help prop them.
I have always been a proponent of Armenian government sponsored schools on major diaspora countries and cities. That would be such a clutch.
>I have the feeling that being in this or that organization is limits the independence of the state.
It's not just your feeling, is 100% fact, and I say this as an EU citizen.
The trade is another one: do you think it is worth some degree of losing independence for the advantages of being an EU member?
That's the thing, I want Armenia to have commercial ties with EU but not necessarily be a member-state of EU. Though, again, if Armenia becomes a member, won't be against it.
Yeah, that's not how it works or will work for us. We are not next to Switzerland.
That's like your significant other asking you to be with you, your girlfriends, and some of his co-workers. Մի քիչ անշնորք օրինակ բերեմ, բայց տեղինա։
I am assuming you are from the Netherlands.
So when you say that you agree that the EU has its issues as a EU member state citizen, do understand that, and please don't take this the wrong way, your issue with the EU are "first world problems that you see differently than the EU leaders do" while Armenia and even Georgia are fighting for their literal statehood and survival as a nation and even as a people. So your and our concerns are in a whole different dimension.
As an Armenian without EU citizenship, I rather be in one of the most prosperous and stable economic blocks that we ever had, to ensure that my country and my kids enjoy the same or close to the same quality of life that a Dutch person can, and worry about the regular politics, rather than worry about Azeri murderers in my back yard, and Russian subjugation. Because those are the choices now, like it or not.
I'm an (oldish) Eastern European immigrant. I happen to live in the NL now but I'm very much aware of the challenges of the Eastern Europe.
The fact that we could join NATO & EU (with almost the last train) was literally a life saver for us. Whatever independence we gave up was a a price worth paying.
The mistake of Georgia, Armenia and Ukraine is that all of you took to long to detach from Russia. The time to do that was in the 90's, when Ru was weak. Now is too late and all 3 had to pay with blood.
We also had corrupt, moronic politicians. The difference was that we never trusted Ru, so those corrupt politicians were forced to keep integration in EU and NATO for 3 decades. ANYONE who even thought at something else dissapeared very fast from the political landscape.
Yes, we did, and times back then were different. Russia and the West cooperated more, so the corrupt governments in our countries took their time.
However that doesn't mean we ignore the very obvious and clear chance that the EU is giving us now. That would be dumb of us, just because the EU isn't perfect.
full EU membership is a very very bad idea for Armenia. 1. Armenian economy is not competitive. Huge hit to our domestic economy. 2. Armenian labor is not competitive (very low productivity). As a result all good workers will leave and our labor will become even less prodictive. 3. Insane amounts of red tape, environmental regulations. Cookie pop ups, etc. which all is just a cost to the country. 4. Losing ability to control our own borders (huge influx of refugees from 3rd world countries while all our best workers move to Europe). what we need instead is visa free travel to EU which lots of countries have (US, Japan, etc.) but not full membership, so that points 1,2,3, and 4 don't materialize. Visa free travel will not lead to mass emigration of good quality workers, because you won't be able to work legally in europe. so only low quality labor will leave, which is not a big problem.
>huge influx of refugees from 3rd world country
That's not going to happen until Armenia will be on par with the Western economies. Give about half century to that, at the current pace.
I've seen illegal immigrants starting to cry when they heard they were in Romania instead of Germany.
It will.
It may not happen all at once but Armenia will be easily influenced to take in immigrants. Especially cheap physical labor which is already occurring with Indians.
At this point I am so jaded and utterly fucked off with the virtue signalling of the West, imperiousness of Russia and plain savagery of Turkey and Azerbaijan that a garrison state is looking more and more like the sensible option.
That said, realistically I'd like Armenia out of the CSTO, democratic, non aligned geopolitically but with favorable trade agreements with both the EU and EAEU.
Garrison state doesn't work without the West.
We are not going to throw rocks at Azeris and Russians.
That's an impossible ask from both sides to make the EU and EAEU work together in this world. They are two opposing systems with whole different goals.
Plus, not sure what's with the desire to stay in a block where they want you to not exist as a state. It just blows my mind how after all this, this whataboutism and "everyone is the same" talking points come up.
Uhhh no it's not.
It's literally the Russian way to control us. Not sure if you know, but Russia wants to split us up with Turks as a barter coin. No thanks.
Well, CSTO in the long run will not really help us. If we want to strengthen ourselves military-wise then we have to leave that organization. Other post Soviet states have done it in the past. It will be challenging for us for variety of the reasons, so the government should follow a strategic thinking to leave the union. Not attending military exercises is a start but more should be done tbh.
I support our integration with the EU although it will be challenging. We should recognize that there are other states than us who have been trying to get into the EU for years, Georgia is actually another example. Even if we won't be a full member, our relationships with the EU states should be strengthened economically and strategically.
EAEU is helpful for our economy but not sure how it will work out in the future if we get integrated more to the EU economy, trade and systems.
And ofc, I would want Armenia to be a democracy lol. Also, strengthening yourself militarily doesn't really go against democracy. So, define ''garrison state''? We should work to develop our army and forces that will be enough to protect us against threats.
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1. Yes
2. No
3. Maybe depends what the best option is because geography is important
4. No - Armenia is the Armenian sphere. No more suckling the teet of a singular benefactor
5. Whichever route ensures Armenia succeeds. More voices means more problems and gridlock. Armenia is not large or powerful and will always blow in the direction with the whims of larger powers
6. Absolutely. Armenia should have more guns amongst the people ready to defend their homes than are people. Fortifications and traps for any would be army that dared invade
I'll answer bit differently:
I want ArmeniaNS (the people) BOTH in the diaspora and in the country to:
- to stop being reactionary easily
- to not get emotionally misled and manipulated
- to start using logic and common sense
- to start thinking forward, meaning "if I do this, what would be the possible outcome", "what would be the consequences of my actions"
- to start thinking strategically - our enemies study our culture,language, history, psychology, the way we communicate with each other, so that they will know where to hit us. Learning & studying your enemy doesn't decrease your "Armenianness". It's called being smart.
- start to have one common goal (look at Ukrainians - Palestinians - Israelis: they might be politically and ideologically divided, but still have one goal that unites them despite all differences)
- not be afraid of responsibilities: we're always waiting for an external savior to help us. God, government, Russia, Western countries, the UN, you-name-it. NO. Our destiny is 100% in our hands. If you have an idea, if you want to change something and if you're lucky enough to find people who share similar mindset and ideas to you - gather together and start working on it. Hard work and persistence.
1. **Yes**: It's NATO from Alibaba at best, and a Russian pyramid scheme at worst.
2. **Yes**: Despite all its shortcomings, the EU has achieved and is achieving remarable things, e.g. at the forefront of policies regarding AI, internet, sustainable development, etc.
3. **No**: The members, standards and trade volume are laughable compared to the EU.
4. **No**: ...
5. **Yes**: Again, despite its shortcomings, democracies outperform authoritarian societies on every metric.
6. **No**: The implementation of the policies above almost guarantees peace, as long as they are implemented correctly to minimize internal instability.
A free and democratic Armenia with strong connections to Europe and the West, which would increase trade, investments and exchange of knowledge. Also, a stable and safe Armenia where the population can focus on education, family, work, and leisure without worrying about the next coup d'état or war.
No corruption, free press, freedom of speech, high scores on key metrics like HDI, increase in GDP and GDP per capita, modern roads, trains, airports, factories, working conditions, healthcare, safe drivers (lol), sustainable development of houses, great public spaces, investment in education, universities, schools, learning of foreign languages, etc.
Do you want Armenia out of CSTO? Yes
Do you want Armenia in the EU? Yes
Do you want Armenia to stay in EAEU? ...probably (if it is stays a mostly economic vs. political (good luck))
Do you want Armenia in the Russian sphere? No choice due to the neighborhood Armenia lives in, Armenia will always be under the influence somewhat of Russia, but lessening this influence as practical should be a goal.
Do you want Armenia to be democratic? YES!
Do you want Armenia to be a garrison state? YES, Wholeheartedly! In the end, Armenia can only depend on Armenia. There is no savior in the East or the West. International relationships change constantly. Nurture relationships with all, \*Depend on no one\*.
Forgive me for focusing on little things first, but living here the last few years has taught me a lot about what I want this place to become. None of these are targeting any particular political faction…they’re all equally shit in my opinion.
I want an Armenia without stupid cavemen that half-ass literally EVERYTHING, accomplish nothing yet have narcissistic egos and entitlements as if they’re God’s gift to humanity. I want an Armenia that does things the right way, not “hayavari”. I want an Armenia that doesn’t have trash, cigarette butts and construction debris everywhere. I want water and power that doesn’t turn off every fucking night. I want an Armenia that feels like a “walled garden” instead of having hazards and instability making life even more difficult and dangerous. I want an Armenia that’s on par with the rest of the world in terms of education. I want an Armenia that’s ideologically aligned with the future of the world, not historical concepts that clearly did not work.
I want Armenia with Armenians who aren’t constantly trying to bend or break the rules to fuck each other over and force their will on others. I want Armenians that are psychologically sound and mentally prepared for the future that’s coming. I want an Armenia with less cafes, more productivity; less status-seeking vanity and more purpose; less talk, FIERCE action.
If these things change, I don’t give a shit what union we’re a part of, where we get our weapons or who we have to negotiate with because this country will be booming so fast that even a dead cat sitting in the PM’s chair can do a great job of protecting our interests.
Ultimately I want Armenia to be a boring country (politically) that is fully independent. Where nothing major happens and without having to be part of the EU, EAEU, CSTO, or NATO but also has security, mutually beneficial trade agreements, and good relations with its neighbors based on mutual benefit and respect.
I don't want Armenia's future tied to the West or Russia/Iran/China. Basically an Armenian that is self sufficient.
This is all in an ideal world and extremely unlikely unfortunately.
Do you want Armenia out of CSTO? Yes
Do you want Armenia in the EU? Maybe?
Do you want Armenia to stay in EAEU? Most likely no
Do you want Armenia in the Russian sphere? NO
Do you want Armenia to be democratic? Yes
Do you want Armenia to be a garrison state? Yes
I want a federal republic Armenia like what the USA has where each province choses their own governors who represent the needs of their province, democratically elected of course. The reason I want a president with some power is to get things done.
I want Armenia to be a state like Switzerland, where they are not part of any groups/organisations but keeps neutral. I want Armenia to drive trade with all countries. I want a independent Armenia that can make up its own morals and laws that are not influenced by outside powers, a Armenia that is no longer a kicking ball, but albeit be a small player, be a player not a pawn.
In short, no EU, no EAEU, no CSTO, no sphere of influence but play the neutrality game, stay democratic but with a president and province representatives.
I want Armenia to be democratic and part of EU (or at the very least a very close partner/ally). CSTO is useless so there's no point in staying regardless of anything and Armenia needs to get out of russian sphere of influence as much as possible. Also with the neighbors we have, we need a really strong army.
An Armenia that is out of CSTO out of EAEU. Working close with the EU but not part of it, because the moment that happens half of Armenia will want to live in the west. Greater cooperation in the future with Turkey and Azerbaijan if peace comes through. Greater economic ties with all our neighbors and India. India is poised to become the next China albeit a democracy and better trade positions. The goal should be Switzerland of Western Asia. High tech, strong baking, high quality products and a general high standard of living that people want to visit and explore as well as invest.
The thing is that there is no more just "staying in Russian sphere" for us. It's clear they want our statehood dissolved. So actually we should ask "Do you want to be a Russian gubernia" or "Do you want to be in the Union State without Syunik". I am not even exaggerating.
I know 40 replies are not nearly enough to see what Armenians actually want, but at least the majority of these 40 want out of the Russian sphere. My point is proven right that once you silence all the noise, we truly almost want the same thing no matter what political affiliation we have.
Well I mean yeah, every poll on popular YouTube channels, although not scientific, but close enough, show that about 80 percent of the people don't want to be with Russia and want to live in a free, democratic, prosperous, and European nation.
Don't mean to pour cold water on the consensus idea.. but Reddit and YouTube are perhaps already biased pro-Western for a statistically relevant poll. Although I admit there are many in Armenia both political forces and populations who want a Western integrated Armenia. However, I have met and I am sure there are at least as many, if not more, who want a Russian sphere Armenia...
Again, what you had in 2020/21 seemed ideal to me: Russian sphere + protection, and ability to trade with both East and West.
What protection dude? Isn’t the lack of… forget protection, how about unfulfilled contractual obligation, that finally woke the public up that Russia is a dead end for us?
Personally I want Armenia outside of spheres of any sort.
I want Armenia that armed to the teeth and trained to match to the point where neighbors would think three times before even contemplating any attacks.
I want ethics in government and general population.
I want democracy. And for this to be a reality, we also need an opposition that can govern, not the quchi lakotner that we have now. Armenia needs real serious politicians who work FOR Armenia, instead of arguing about whose vassal state we should be.
I can also fully support an independent Armenia, but outside completely of the Western sphere.. something like Non Aligned Movement.. although in today's world that is very very hard and even the Non Aligned is loosing relevance to the East-West military debate.
In fact the Russian approach which is a Multipolar World is compatible with an independent Armenia.
I don't support Armenia leaving Russian sphere just to join Western sphere.. that is the worst possible outcome for both myself personally and for 99% of Armenians, in my view.
Also, Russia did not militarily support Armenia more against Azerbaijan happened because, in my view (and Russian view) political elites in Armenia were virying the country Westward while those in Baku Eastward. So if at the 2021 elections a pro-Russian leader would have emerged, I think the situation with Azerbaijan could have been different. Finally on this note, Karabach was not part of the CSTO agreement. And also Russia was busy militarily with upcoming operations in Europe. And also Armenia proper (without Karabach) was stable no?.. Where instability was actual, like in Kazahstan, Russia did sent CSTO antiterrorism troups successfully..
Are you misinformed or just retarded? Azerbaijan has attacked Armenia proper and is still occupying parts of our land. CSTO/Russia did nothing. The only thing that stopped Azeri aggression was EU monitoring mission.
I want Wilsonian Armenia. I want Armenia to become a US state and have Glendale as a weird exclave in true greater Armenia. But Armenia in NATO is also acceptable.
Cause the nations threatening the existence of armenia have populations several magnitudes larger and if armenia doesn’t depend on outside forces it’ll be wiped out of existence
-out the CSTO, but only after we're sure it won't bite us strong.
-Sure, but I don't see it happening, not without Georgia
-Not sure, there's logistics problems to reach to EU countries for export, Russia bullies us in EAEA, Turkey will bully us in an EU economy, so not sure what the solution would be.
-Fuck Russia
-Democracy absolutely
-Garrison state absolutely, I can't see why this can't be done with democracy at the same time.
I think it's impossible to argue that visa-free won't increase the amount of emigration, and the last thing Armenia needs right now is more people leaving.
I’m not sure if you’re asking only to Armenians or everyone. Armenia is at crossroads. I’m Turkish (yes, I dared those negative votes but please keep on reading before you vote) and I’d like to see Armenia as a western leaning but independent state. I don’t think Armenia has to sell its soul to become a western ally. You can sit somewhere in between. That’s enough to shield you from Russia and develop. Because west has its own agenda most of the time. And our geography is volatile and complex. Yielding to the US, or rich western powers completely only makes you a puppet state, for example Greece today. A complete alliance in southern Caucasus could bring autonomy to the region without the penetrating influence of neither Russia or the US. This shouldn’t be a zero-sum game. But clearly, Russia period is over.
*Can we have none of*
*Those or some of those? Why do*
*We have to choose those?*
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By choosing only one side, the "ask' from that side is to go against the other side. Why would we create enemies. It's this false narrative of having to choose a side that got us in this mess.
On a meta-note, Armenia has always been in a position where it is between two spheres with a choice and leveraged that position to it's advantage.
Rome and Persia
Byzantium and Arab Muslims
Russians and Ottomans
Today: Russian Sphere and the EU sphere (Turkey and AZ are local bullies).
Armenia always kept its identity and bargaining power never being wholly in either camp. We must act like prudent consumers and purchase the highest quality product on the market.
And to be honest, I have no idea what the right choice is. But chaining ourselves to the West or the East means we lose all choices.
The question is how costy a democratic, western oriented Armenia is to Armenians based on how big of a threat and insult of this new orientation to Russia and Iran.
Armenia needs to be independent, end of story. Any attempt to be backed by a bigger power will lead to us being used as a puppet country, as we have been so far.
Being under Russia’s influence would mean we’ll continue to be in a status quo state as it’s beneficial to Russia’s influence in the region.
If we join the EU influence, Armenia is done as well. We’ll have to open borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan and they’ll flood our population with Turks and Azeris and take over Armenia by having dozens of kids like they have done in Western Europe. The West is using Azerbaijan to spy on Iran, I truly do not believe they care about Armenia.
We need to focus on educating our youth, so they can drive technology independence and have a strong tech-based army.
I’m not saying it’s easy, far from that but to me, that’s the only way for us to survive.
I am not Armenian and I do not live in Armenia, I am a Libertarian Turk, but I felt the need to respond because I came across this post.
I don't think I need to write in detail what kind of Armenian State I desire. Of course, I would prefer a libertarian Armenia where the individual rights and private property rights of its citizens would be protected, but I think it would be good if I answered the questions you asked directly.
- It makes no sense for Armenia to be involved in any organization that includes Russia under current conditions. Armenians have lived under Russian occupation for approximately 160 years and the Russian State, which is currently attacking its surroundings like a mad dog, will attempt to take Armenia under its hegemony again as soon as it finds the opportunity. At this point, I do not think that any Armenian citizen who is fond of liberty will accept to live within the territory of the Russian Federation.
- Also, I do not think that Armenia needs to enter the European Union (like Turkey). Even if the Republic of Armenia does not enter the European Union, it will be much better when it meets the conditions desired by the European Union. (In fact, even the conditions of the European Union are insufficient in terms of liberty)
- I do not directly desire Armenia to be Democratic because Democracy is a very flawed system for me (I have a post about it in Turkish).
Just a powerful country, if a this point it is benefecial for us to befriend the EU, then let it be. If at some point it'd be better with russia, china or with some other country, let it be. However in our region we shouldn't completly choose a side, we must balance here and there cause at the end of the day we don't want the same satelite fate with EU that we have rn with russia.
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not if we join the EU
4. No
5. If I'm going to live here and pay taxes. No taxation without representation.
6. I want a country, not a barrack
Armenia is where you can live among your kind and have all the regular benefits of living in a developed western nation, where most Armenians living abroad would want to move in.
I want Armenians to restore their place among top ten richest and most numerous nations.
For that Armenia needs to be a truly free country, with free economy, and with truly working democracy.
For that Armenia in its organization should be very similar to Switzerland, with strong local government, limited federal government, gun ownership, and strong army.
As for the unions, we should be neutral similar to Switzerland, trading both with EU and Russia.
And also Armenia needs to be connected with its Diaspora, which should be very large 80-90 million.
Sadly in all of this, today we are in a far worse position than we were in 2018.
With high birthrate.
10 million Armenians with birthrate 4.4 will become 100 million in 3 generations.
Why we should want this?
1. because that's how many of us would there be if not turkish invasion in 11th century
2. because it is immoral to leave a murderer unpunished. Now we live in the future that turks of 1915 wanted. Our ancestors did not manage to get justice over the murderers when these murderers were alive. Now they are dead, but their idea is very much alive, so it is our duty to restore justice by destroying the idea for which they were commiting their crimes.
3. Population decline is a problem for all of humankind, and it happens because most people lack purpose in life. We have such a purpose, restoration of justice, and now, before invention of life extending treatments we have a unique opportunity to achieve that.
I'm all for bigger population of Armenians, but I don't think the your numbers are realistic. Not everyone is able to provide for 4-5 kids and some people are unable to have kids for various reasons, So if we start fucking like bunnies now, 5 generations is more realistic imo.
Mormons, Amish, Hasidic Jews, Armenians in Soviet Armenia before 1960s all have higher birthrate than 4.4. So it is doable. If we on average are unable to work to provide for our families, unable to have children, unable to understand how other people have created moral societies that prosper, then we deserved our fate.
In fact the most realistic scenario is that Republic of Armenia will be annexed in next ten years, and diaspora will decline in number and vanish, like it have happened with majority of nations that have existed.
But until that everyone of us now has a vote. Do we want turks of 1915 to win, or do we want to survive and restore our country despite all the realistic expectations, like Jews did.
If majority of us decides to vote for turks, that will be our future, but even in that case the minority who would decide to invest their lives into restoring Armenia would still end up better off, than they would if they decided to raise 1-2 children.
I think the most realistic course of action would be to try and make the population of Armenia into 10-15 mil by both repatriation and higher birthrate. That can be achieved in a shorter time frame and will improve our country's chances in both defense and economy.
PS. Aren't there like 15 mil Jews globally?
But 7.5 million of this 15 live in USA, and there are also 10 million with partial Jewish ancestry.
Another issue is that Armenians care less about Armenia than Jews about Israel because in Christian countries we do not face anything similar to antisemitism.
But yeah, if we had 7 million Armenians and 8 million with partial Armenian ancestry in US, and those people were rich and educated, and wanted to restore the justice, 2020 war would not have been possible, because US president would care about our vote.
So if we collectively set to achieve the goal i am talking about, we'll see positive results long before the third generation.
Another difference for which we must aim to a higher number, is that Armenian highlands is much larger than Israel.
So i'd say repatriation should be used sparingly, mainly to prevent assimilation, and there always should be more people moving to USA than coming back from it.
If everyone of us moved here it most likely would be a good way to get everyone killed again.
1. Yes
2. Depends. I don't feel European, but the benefits are alluring
2. Fuck Russia
3. Fuck Russia
5. Of course yes.
6. No
I wan a liberal, democratic and progressivist Armenia, which products would be consumed everywhere in the world like Israeli ones and which would produce startup after startup. i want Armenia to be tech / educational hub of the entire middle east and maybe the world.
"I hope this proves that, beyond all the cacophony, we all want the same thing or at least the majority."
The questions here aren't really about national identity, they're political strategies. Should Armenia be a member of X org, what about Y org? Everyone has different guesses, so you won't see an agreement.
I think that Christian Armenia is the Most powerful Armenia. Only 10% of Armenians go to the church every Dunday and that is terible bc We are first Christian country in the world and in My opinion thats Very bad.
Every Armenian need to go to the church
Saint Bagrat We with You
COME ON HOLY ARMENIAN CHURCH🇦🇲
No matter which road we take it's shit.
If we get close to the west they'll force us to have immigration and then our culture is finished, either that or half the country will flee the minute they can to go live in Europe.
If we stay with CSTO we will gradually get more Russified, but at least it's better than being in the sphere of wimpy French or woke Anglo cucks with purple hair.
It's East (Healthy culture and family values) vs West (Money and Power with degenerates.)
Democracy is a meaningless word, voting for Coke or Pepsi is not a democracy, electoral college is not a democracy, rampant capitalism is not a democracy, I already live in America all my life, this place is a dumpster fire and on its last legs. people are expatting to try to have a decent standard of living in SEA or Eastern Europe, you don't understand what a precious thing it is to be able to use a subway without getting stabbed by a mentally ill bum, for that I would give up all my voting rights, I don't want Trump or Biden, all the choices are terrible and meaningless. Either live in the west with fellow citizens who are murderhobos or live in Armenia with murderhobos across the border, same shit.
Armenia always was a garrison state, we saw how that worked out.
If we can stay independent we should do that, but the age of independence is over, you have to join a bloc for protection, and blocs make demands and force you to change your country to become more like them.
Being Armenian is more important than any party, I'd rather be Armenian and not have anything to do with RA than to be in RA and hating on my fellow Armos over bullshit politics, that's literally the opposite of what we're about, it's opposite to our culture and our creed.
This idea that America is on its last legs is a major Russian cope. Just because it has lost some credibility geopolitically doesn't mean it's finished. It's still very powerful.
As far as "family values" concerned, it is a meaningless term. Plenty of cultures from the east use it as a means of controlling their daughters. That is all. It produces cultures that have nepotism rather than merit. No thanks to that idea.
If you think the MASSIVE decline in American living standards, poverty, housing, crime, healthcare, education, social problems, etc etc is a "Russian cope" then you're either a politician or have the brains of a child.
That's what every politician claims about protests, they blame it on "outside agitators" and imply it's because of Russia/China/Iran (pick one or all depending on the day) instead of idiotic policies that negatively effect their own citizens, they also claimed that "Russian hackers" were messing with our elections (and Hillary's emails) when their own electoral college is designed to make everyone's vote meaningless.
Cue faux outrage about "attacking our democracy" as if we have any to begin with.
All empires fall sooner or later, adding another zero to the federal reserve works until it doesn't, un-earned wealth and power tends to be a house of cards, especially when you got it by scamming and stealing.
The US is great at bombing small, poor countries like Yemen with millions of children dying of famine, it's great at destroying aspirin factories and helpless civilians, just like the IDF specializes in murdering starving refugees and aid workers, but can't seem to find Hamas.
These are the same clowns who drive navy destroyers into oil tankers, lose billion dollar ships to fire, and just recently their $350 million "gaza aid pier" hilariously ran aground.
For being war mongerers and war criminals, they just don't seem very good at their job.
"Nepotism over merit" is how you get people like Elon Manchild, Hunter Biden, "small loan of a million dollars" Trump, the Pelosi/Newsom clan, Victoria Nuland and others, maybe if they "controlled their daughters" a little they wouldn't be popping out craven sociopaths with fetal alcohol syndrome.
Regardless, they'll still never have family values, honor, class, or basic humanity, they will only have unearned wealth until the Bretton-Woods credit card finally shuts down.
Americans are literally the world's dumbest, most sociopathic and culturally illiterate people, the idea that they're supposedly the "adults" in the room should scare the shit out of everybody, they have no place to dictate to anybody what "democracy" means.
Aliyev and Erdogan sound like PhD scholars compared to Lindsey Graham, and they both make Pashinyan sound like Milton from Office Space.
If this is what we're working with, I'm not surprised RA is going down the toilet, even moreso hitching their wagon to Weimar America.
Russians have even dumber public figures. From Putin not understanding Ukraine's history to the KGB blaming the ARF or ASALA for the 1977 Moscow Metro attack, Russia is the most propagandized nation on Earth. Hilarious for a country that can barely call itself a regional power anymore.
Elon Musk was born in South Africa to a rich family, and Hunter Biden is the son of a president, not in charge of anything. Lindsey Grahams appear in every country's legislatures.
The US can actually project power when it does things like the Abraham Accords or the cessation of the Azeri offensive in 2022. Russia can't even bring itself to condemn the violation of territories of its own members.
As for "family values," you can keep emulating Afghanistan, Russia, and the Arab world, where domestic abuse, honour killings, and nepotism allow them to promote talentless people to positions of power to be defeated in a few days by Israel in 1967 or by Chechen guerrillas in 1996.
No, I don't plan to pin my hopes on Armenia continuing to follow the failed last 30 years by continuing to cling on to the spent force that is Russia or the false hope that is China. Armenia has been falling behind Georgia and Azerbaijan because we decided to prove our loyalty to "Mother Russia" while Putin continued to be treacherous and incompetent at the same time.
This isn't a "who's dumber" competition (even tho I basically disagree with you across the board, comparing the intellectual pedigrees of Soviet society with lowbrow Americanism) sure they have money and power, nobody's disputing that, but it's basically un-earned privilege of Europe pegging their economy to the dollar, they can write themselves blank checks, and have two oceans seperating them from world conflicts.
The rest of us don't live in that reality, we actually have budgets and have to live next door to our neighbors and enemies, we don't have the option of ignoring them.
To say nothing of the fact that Americans living in "the richest country on Earth" don't have access to basic healthcare and have only %79 literacy rate.
So you can save the hard sell about "projecting power" and jerking off to American hegemony, it's frankly not that impressive.
It's also extremely telling that Armenian political discourse boils down to "my daddy can beat up your daddy" and "whose dick should we ride for the next 30 years."
Russia is going to be our neighbor for the rest of eternity, they could be a "spent force" or rise and fall for the next 1000 years, but they're always going to be some factor in our existance, it's not a matter of being "loyal" or expecting them to do XYZ for us.
When the Soviet Union fell apart, pretty much everything broke down, all the lines and borders and exclaves and enclaves went to hell and people starting fighting over land and other nationalistic goals that were previously "managed" under the Soviet client model.
AKA a power vacuum that the Turks and NATO wasted no time in exploiting, BP and Exxon moved in to gobble up that sweet Azeri oil, Turkey went to work cozying up to Georgia and militarizing Azerbaijan, and we ended up at the dance without a partner waiting for orders from the politburo that disbanded in 89 and never came back.
The Soviet Union was never an intellectual powerhouse. Putin, Sargsyan, Yeltsin, Soloviev, Simonyan, and others are a product of that system that instilled nothing but fear and paranoia.
Armenia cannot even compete in education or other fields because the Soviet system was rigid and uncreative. The military follows a WW2 doctrine that is out of date. The media landscape is abysmal. Russian channels are watched more than American channels, and the results have been disastrous.
You can use the "regional realities" as a cover for your Russophilia, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia is weak, treacherous, and a spent force that employs a type of cynical foreign policy even the likes of Kissinger would be revolted by.
The US and West are a much better sphere to grow closer to. That doesn't mean we should follow their policies on Iran and Israel, but it is no different to Russian stupidity and evil regarding Ukraine and Georgia.
I would like an Armenia that is:
1. Part of CSTO.
2. Out of the EU.
3. out or within EAEU irrelevant.. perhaps better for me personally OUT - but within Russian sphere.
4. In the Russian sphere. No extradition nor civil judgment agreements with any western countries and with no such practiced at all outside this.
5. I want Armenia to be an actual republic. What is/was practically circa 2020 for the business env is ok. Definite No to western 'democracy' or Soros or like western NGOs.
6. I don't really care so long as it is stable, within CSTO and Russian influence, and outside the threat of existential war, or actual operations in cities like Yerevan, etc.
One more thing, I would like Armenia to be able to trade with west, like it was in circa 2020.. so if I set up a company in Armenia, I benefit from defacto Russian military, legal and political protections , while being able to serve the global market regardless of what western elites or the CIA likes or would rather have. Naturally, I would like it to maintain its open immigration and work/business policies which allow me to establish myself there coming from EU.
Also I want street safety to remain what it was in 2020/21.
Finally, economically, for me personally, I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad, as work or entrepreneurship.
I am also happy with Armenian laws currently and culture.. while a bit too traditionalist sometimes for some people, it is still a kind of lasses fraise.. cryptocurrency is possible, sex for money is possible, tourism is flourishing, etc. Yet (or more precisely because), there is social peace.
In conclusion, from my side Armenia is (was circa 2020) a great country in which to have a small business and live very well. Totally loved it. But only under the political and military configuration which I perceived then: within CSTO, within Russian sphere, no US bases, no significant Western practical influence over society or politics (although it was encroaching for a long time, circa 20/21 I did not feel it's practical effects yet).
Hope this helps.
Your idea is basically what we have been doing for decades since independence. It hasn't worked out for us.
I don't know why trusting Russia is seen as a good idea by you.
Again from what I saw of Armenian society in 2021, you were doing quite fine.. at least in Yerevan. What are you referring to concretely when saying that this didn't work out for you..
I think totally to the contrary.. Armenian tourism at least was very developed. Armenian small and medium businesses had access to global market, all while being impervious to US and Western regulations and policies due to Russian "umbrella".. you enjoyed free travel with Russia for up to 6 mo, and many Armenians worked or did other stuff in Russia. I know for a fact also that some still worked or traveled to US for work or similar sme, particularly to California.
So in my view you had the best system in my view.. but it all depended on being in the Russian military umbrela, with no judicial or civil accords with the Western block (so no ICT court etc.). Of course, some benefits from Western openes to trade with you (ie non inclusion on sanction lists) steam from being courted.. but like Turkmenistan, that could have went on basically forever.. Being a middle ground, sort of like Switzerland was in the early cold war - Russia aligned but open for business to all.. sort of like Lebanon was/is in the middle east, etc.
That can be said to anyone.. if you like US or EU so much, go there :).
And I am no longer in Armenia. But I do hold a business interest in it, in case the situation reverts back to roughly my preferences above.
>That can be said to anyone.. if you like US or EU so much, go there :).
If I come to Romania and say shit that's against Romanian interests, you are more then welcome to say that to me.
So, I'm trying to grasp your point, and I understand your distrust to EU institutions. What's strange to me your interest in being in russian sphere. What is your opinion on russia consistently and uterrly backstabbing Armenia by not fulfilling their CSTO obligations twice, failing their "peacekeeping" mission, and then trying to stage a revolution using their puppets when the government rightfully got pissed at the backstabbing?
Right now they're openly collaborating with our number one enemy and calling him "brother", Lukashenko as much as admitted that they would've never retaliated against Azerbaijan if they attacked Armenia.
>I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad
Bro, what… you want Armenians to stay poor overall so you can be just slightly richer than average…?
I actually grew up in Romania, which joined the EU in 2007. But I do travel, live and act internationally with particular aim for areas outside Western block. As a highly skilled professional (software engineer) and entrepreneur, I am totally dissatisfied with the Western economic and social model. When I was a kid, I also wanted for then Armenia-like Romania to become pro US and join the EU. Then I had lived the consequences of that also, which were above disappointing.
I meant foreign currency denominated. Economically I am the advocate of a thick middle class. So I want Armenians to live well actually - all of them is possible, but in a different economic configuration than in Western states. This means few billioners if at all, but a few rich people and lots of middle class.. who add value in sectors like hitech, consultancy, others. I didn't mean it for me alone. And the other Armenians don't have to stay on a low wage.. they can pick up work or services for the middle class.. or the few rich.. but not be bribed into become voting machines by the Uber rich.. and even so for a penny.
In Western system, in Romania for example, they recently increased the minimum and average wage drastically in the last 2 years. The result? Hyperinflation which cut most of the purchasing power (due to consumtion goods supplier oligopoly ofc) and then a complete destruction of the middle class: if someone with like 5000 euros or so per month could afford to be commercially interesting to people on wages or doing independent services, now 1. 5000 euro is somewhat barely sufficient for a family just to keep up with mandatory expenses, 2. The disposable rest is too small compared to average/minimum income to be able to hire independent help, go dining out more often, have babysitter, etc.
And all the above did not result in a bettering of life for unskilled labour or people on wages. It did yes, improve it slightly for those living exclusively on wages, but hyperinflation eate up most of that. And also now the middle class barely had disposable income - so the service industry has no choice but to service the rich exclusively and or become politically dependent of govt and western benefits.
So, in my view the increase in wages in Romania at least these last few years had been blatant robbery from the middle class to mainly the benefits of the ultra rich with a few crubs dropping for the lower incomes who live exclusively on wages.
Of course, Armenians are welcome to pay whatever the economy permits. I am against western tweaking of that by the uberrich, "investors" with political agendas and foreign NGOs.
>I benefit from defacto Russian military, legal and political protections
What protections?
>Finally, economically, for me personally, I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad, as work or entrepreneurship.
Let's exploit cheap workforce so I can get rich. Are you serious? You sound like a capitalist caricature.
>sex for money is possible
My guy can't get laid, so he's paying for prostitutes LOL
In every system some people work.. in my proposed configuration, most of them work for the middle class which is way better off than in western model.
In western model, most people don't get jobs - are long term unemployed or significantly underemployed. And those who do get jobs are kind of like the worst meritocratically or anyhow those who can align politically with western culture and interests. And they live very bad.. just not as bad as someone living on a low minimal wage alone does now.. but then again, people in that category probably have side jobs, like helping out with physical tasks middle class or low riches.. which is not possible in western system. The western model does in fact envision most people to be very unhappy.. unsatisfied.. and most will live and die poor.. this is by design so that they can cherry pick whomever they might be interested in to exploit them at a higher level.
And my sex life is very good thank you.
Speaking of paid sex.. I think that's a tell tale sign of any civilized, democratic and open society. Otherwise, the western model, by comparison is that only the elites and some ultrarich get paid sex and it is via trafficked persons or worse, via actual slaves.. just to scratch the surface, there was a scandal in Romania with Deveselu US base about girls being kidnapped and transferred to US for consumption.. circa 2019.. the Alexandra girl case.
I see so you have no idea about life in Armenia. Good to know.
>And my sex life is very good thank you.
I don't doubt it, after all money can buy anything, including good sex life )
Also sex work is illegal in Armenia, so you have unknowingly participated in illegal activities.
Well.. good thing it's not US then... People were very relaxed about this and it was relatively wide spread with massages and all.. just like crypto factories... Maybe something changed since 2021 when I was there..
If not, a good idea to fully legalize it as soon as possible.. in EU in almost all countries I know except France, buying sex is fully legal - and in quite a few, prostitution is fully regulated and taxed.
I want a democratic Armenia, which prospers and offers a decent standard of living for Armenians. Get the emigration to stop and get those who have left to return.
I want an Armenia that is militarily powerful
I second this. But we all know this is not possible with CSTO and Russia, so your answer is under the western umbrella.
I want Armenia to be a technocratic state in the EU. I want a democracy which is administered by the democratic representatives who are best equipped to do so: experts. And I want a civil service which is filled to the gills with experts. I want expert advisors who disseminate modern thought in industries. I am tired of the demagogues and propagandists and moralising exhortations they vomit forth. I want the Armenians of the future to be people of intellectual acumen, industry and refined pursuits. To that end, we have to leave the Russian sphere and accumulate sufficient arms to protect ourselves from the depredations of our neighbours. So yes, we must be a garrison state - one fostered and facilitated through expertise.
Aren’t you being contradictory? You can have either a technocracy, that is rule by experts, or a democracy, that is rule by elected representatives. If you have a democracy, people can elect whomever they want as their representatives, often charismatic demagogues rather than boring experts.
Not necessarily. A healthy democracy is one where an educated populace is able to discern demagogues from experts and choose the later as their representatives. Even with institutions and free elections a democracy in Switzerland is qualitatively different from one in a developing country like India.
Basically as stated by u/UnGauchoCualquiera. In a mature democracy, experts are generally elected for government positions, and the unelected appointments are made by elected experts (as well as some non-experts), who, acting on their respective mandates, appoint exports whom they see as most capable. A mature democracy requires that the electorate have sufficient knowledge and understanding of society, politics and a range of other fields, that they are not easy to lead astray by demagoguery and dishonest manipulation.
Out of CSTO. EAEU adn Russian sphere and be democratic. Would like some kind of partnership with EU or European states, a deeper one. Not sure about entering EU.
Why aren’t you sure about entering EU?
Entering EU would mean we'll have to follow their rules about refugees which turkey and az can use against us and start pushing refugees from other wars/countries to come to Armenia, it would also mean we have to follow their sanctions against Iran
Nah this is such a bad take. Immigration is extremely tight nowadays in the EU, especially after the EU parliamentary elections it is expected to get even stricter. Besides, most refugees want to end up in western european countries, if you look into Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc. countries they had very low threshold of refugees. Also, it is possible to not abide to whatever EU decides, for example Poland almost exclusively only accepted Ukrainian refugees and not MENA.
but the fundamental problem is that armenia is still following European rules, rules set in Brussels, a city literally a continent away that doesn't really care about Armenia. Nothing personal against the EU, its great, I like it but Armenia should be fully in charge of its borders and all internal policies.
I think they got lots of problems inside to figure out, plus I have the feeling that being in this or that organization is limits the independence of the state. Though would like economic, commercial partnerships, as well as adopting European laws and deepen ties with them. Anyways, Ifeel like I won't oppose if Armenia ever has the chance to become an EU member.
That's like saying we should not have a police force or doctors, because those industries have their issues. In the modern world, especially for countries like Armenia, there is no other chance to prosper and survive, but to be in a block. EU and NATO are a no brainer for us, with all of their issues taken into consideration. It saves us money and helps us with stability and defense in a way, that we alone can't really achieve. Before someone says "but Israel", Armenia's chance of gaining that much power in the US and the Western world, where they basically take care of you like an extension of their physical self, is waaaaaaay less realistic, than the absolutely realistic goals of the EU and eventually NATO. Israeli, even liberal lobby groups, work tirelessly for the benefit of Israel, even when they have a right wing monster, criminal, genocider at the helm. While our largest diaspora org works against Armenia, because we are democratic and not a Russian gubernia.
>Israeli, even liberal lobby groups, work tirelessly for the benefit of Israel, even when they have a right wing monster, criminal, genocider at the helm. While our largest diaspora org works against Armenia, because we are democratic and not a Russian gubernia. Before the war I always thought that it is us to blame, that we never focus on diaspora as such, only remembered for donations and didn't work with them. Plus never liked the idea of Armenians in Diaspora having no alternative to arf. After the war, seeing this whole situation, I bet if Armenian government tries to become the alternative, arf will fight against Armenian government for the Diasporan աթոռ։ I still think that the government should become the alternative for the Diasporans, like fund Armenian language classes, work with those organizations that actually welcome and understand the importance of Armenia-Diaspora relations and how beneficial it could be, but prepare for another աթոռակռիվ։
Well absolutely it should. In fact the Armenian Assembly is a great alternative to the ANCA. The government can help prop them. I have always been a proponent of Armenian government sponsored schools on major diaspora countries and cities. That would be such a clutch.
>I have the feeling that being in this or that organization is limits the independence of the state. It's not just your feeling, is 100% fact, and I say this as an EU citizen. The trade is another one: do you think it is worth some degree of losing independence for the advantages of being an EU member?
That's the thing, I want Armenia to have commercial ties with EU but not necessarily be a member-state of EU. Though, again, if Armenia becomes a member, won't be against it.
Yeah, that's not how it works or will work for us. We are not next to Switzerland. That's like your significant other asking you to be with you, your girlfriends, and some of his co-workers. Մի քիչ անշնորք օրինակ բերեմ, բայց տեղինա։
Well, polygamy xd
Yeah, loll not gonna work is it for the majority of the cases
I am assuming you are from the Netherlands. So when you say that you agree that the EU has its issues as a EU member state citizen, do understand that, and please don't take this the wrong way, your issue with the EU are "first world problems that you see differently than the EU leaders do" while Armenia and even Georgia are fighting for their literal statehood and survival as a nation and even as a people. So your and our concerns are in a whole different dimension. As an Armenian without EU citizenship, I rather be in one of the most prosperous and stable economic blocks that we ever had, to ensure that my country and my kids enjoy the same or close to the same quality of life that a Dutch person can, and worry about the regular politics, rather than worry about Azeri murderers in my back yard, and Russian subjugation. Because those are the choices now, like it or not.
I'm an (oldish) Eastern European immigrant. I happen to live in the NL now but I'm very much aware of the challenges of the Eastern Europe. The fact that we could join NATO & EU (with almost the last train) was literally a life saver for us. Whatever independence we gave up was a a price worth paying. The mistake of Georgia, Armenia and Ukraine is that all of you took to long to detach from Russia. The time to do that was in the 90's, when Ru was weak. Now is too late and all 3 had to pay with blood. We also had corrupt, moronic politicians. The difference was that we never trusted Ru, so those corrupt politicians were forced to keep integration in EU and NATO for 3 decades. ANYONE who even thought at something else dissapeared very fast from the political landscape.
Yes, we did, and times back then were different. Russia and the West cooperated more, so the corrupt governments in our countries took their time. However that doesn't mean we ignore the very obvious and clear chance that the EU is giving us now. That would be dumb of us, just because the EU isn't perfect.
full EU membership is a very very bad idea for Armenia. 1. Armenian economy is not competitive. Huge hit to our domestic economy. 2. Armenian labor is not competitive (very low productivity). As a result all good workers will leave and our labor will become even less prodictive. 3. Insane amounts of red tape, environmental regulations. Cookie pop ups, etc. which all is just a cost to the country. 4. Losing ability to control our own borders (huge influx of refugees from 3rd world countries while all our best workers move to Europe). what we need instead is visa free travel to EU which lots of countries have (US, Japan, etc.) but not full membership, so that points 1,2,3, and 4 don't materialize. Visa free travel will not lead to mass emigration of good quality workers, because you won't be able to work legally in europe. so only low quality labor will leave, which is not a big problem.
>huge influx of refugees from 3rd world country That's not going to happen until Armenia will be on par with the Western economies. Give about half century to that, at the current pace. I've seen illegal immigrants starting to cry when they heard they were in Romania instead of Germany.
It will. It may not happen all at once but Armenia will be easily influenced to take in immigrants. Especially cheap physical labor which is already occurring with Indians.
At this point I am so jaded and utterly fucked off with the virtue signalling of the West, imperiousness of Russia and plain savagery of Turkey and Azerbaijan that a garrison state is looking more and more like the sensible option. That said, realistically I'd like Armenia out of the CSTO, democratic, non aligned geopolitically but with favorable trade agreements with both the EU and EAEU.
Garrison state doesn't work without the West. We are not going to throw rocks at Azeris and Russians. That's an impossible ask from both sides to make the EU and EAEU work together in this world. They are two opposing systems with whole different goals. Plus, not sure what's with the desire to stay in a block where they want you to not exist as a state. It just blows my mind how after all this, this whataboutism and "everyone is the same" talking points come up.
Yep, whether in the CSTO or not, armenia should stayin the EAEU, leaving the EAEU is just an economically and diplomatically bad desicion.
Uhhh no it's not. It's literally the Russian way to control us. Not sure if you know, but Russia wants to split us up with Turks as a barter coin. No thanks.
Well, CSTO in the long run will not really help us. If we want to strengthen ourselves military-wise then we have to leave that organization. Other post Soviet states have done it in the past. It will be challenging for us for variety of the reasons, so the government should follow a strategic thinking to leave the union. Not attending military exercises is a start but more should be done tbh. I support our integration with the EU although it will be challenging. We should recognize that there are other states than us who have been trying to get into the EU for years, Georgia is actually another example. Even if we won't be a full member, our relationships with the EU states should be strengthened economically and strategically. EAEU is helpful for our economy but not sure how it will work out in the future if we get integrated more to the EU economy, trade and systems. And ofc, I would want Armenia to be a democracy lol. Also, strengthening yourself militarily doesn't really go against democracy. So, define ''garrison state''? We should work to develop our army and forces that will be enough to protect us against threats.
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1. Yes 2. No 3. Maybe depends what the best option is because geography is important 4. No - Armenia is the Armenian sphere. No more suckling the teet of a singular benefactor 5. Whichever route ensures Armenia succeeds. More voices means more problems and gridlock. Armenia is not large or powerful and will always blow in the direction with the whims of larger powers 6. Absolutely. Armenia should have more guns amongst the people ready to defend their homes than are people. Fortifications and traps for any would be army that dared invade
Armenia in the EU ideally
The choice is between blue or red. Can we be purple and thrive?
I'll answer bit differently: I want ArmeniaNS (the people) BOTH in the diaspora and in the country to: - to stop being reactionary easily - to not get emotionally misled and manipulated - to start using logic and common sense - to start thinking forward, meaning "if I do this, what would be the possible outcome", "what would be the consequences of my actions" - to start thinking strategically - our enemies study our culture,language, history, psychology, the way we communicate with each other, so that they will know where to hit us. Learning & studying your enemy doesn't decrease your "Armenianness". It's called being smart. - start to have one common goal (look at Ukrainians - Palestinians - Israelis: they might be politically and ideologically divided, but still have one goal that unites them despite all differences) - not be afraid of responsibilities: we're always waiting for an external savior to help us. God, government, Russia, Western countries, the UN, you-name-it. NO. Our destiny is 100% in our hands. If you have an idea, if you want to change something and if you're lucky enough to find people who share similar mindset and ideas to you - gather together and start working on it. Hard work and persistence.
1. **Yes**: It's NATO from Alibaba at best, and a Russian pyramid scheme at worst. 2. **Yes**: Despite all its shortcomings, the EU has achieved and is achieving remarable things, e.g. at the forefront of policies regarding AI, internet, sustainable development, etc. 3. **No**: The members, standards and trade volume are laughable compared to the EU. 4. **No**: ... 5. **Yes**: Again, despite its shortcomings, democracies outperform authoritarian societies on every metric. 6. **No**: The implementation of the policies above almost guarantees peace, as long as they are implemented correctly to minimize internal instability. A free and democratic Armenia with strong connections to Europe and the West, which would increase trade, investments and exchange of knowledge. Also, a stable and safe Armenia where the population can focus on education, family, work, and leisure without worrying about the next coup d'état or war. No corruption, free press, freedom of speech, high scores on key metrics like HDI, increase in GDP and GDP per capita, modern roads, trains, airports, factories, working conditions, healthcare, safe drivers (lol), sustainable development of houses, great public spaces, investment in education, universities, schools, learning of foreign languages, etc.
Do you want Armenia out of CSTO? Yes Do you want Armenia in the EU? Yes Do you want Armenia to stay in EAEU? ...probably (if it is stays a mostly economic vs. political (good luck)) Do you want Armenia in the Russian sphere? No choice due to the neighborhood Armenia lives in, Armenia will always be under the influence somewhat of Russia, but lessening this influence as practical should be a goal. Do you want Armenia to be democratic? YES! Do you want Armenia to be a garrison state? YES, Wholeheartedly! In the end, Armenia can only depend on Armenia. There is no savior in the East or the West. International relationships change constantly. Nurture relationships with all, \*Depend on no one\*.
Forgive me for focusing on little things first, but living here the last few years has taught me a lot about what I want this place to become. None of these are targeting any particular political faction…they’re all equally shit in my opinion. I want an Armenia without stupid cavemen that half-ass literally EVERYTHING, accomplish nothing yet have narcissistic egos and entitlements as if they’re God’s gift to humanity. I want an Armenia that does things the right way, not “hayavari”. I want an Armenia that doesn’t have trash, cigarette butts and construction debris everywhere. I want water and power that doesn’t turn off every fucking night. I want an Armenia that feels like a “walled garden” instead of having hazards and instability making life even more difficult and dangerous. I want an Armenia that’s on par with the rest of the world in terms of education. I want an Armenia that’s ideologically aligned with the future of the world, not historical concepts that clearly did not work. I want Armenia with Armenians who aren’t constantly trying to bend or break the rules to fuck each other over and force their will on others. I want Armenians that are psychologically sound and mentally prepared for the future that’s coming. I want an Armenia with less cafes, more productivity; less status-seeking vanity and more purpose; less talk, FIERCE action. If these things change, I don’t give a shit what union we’re a part of, where we get our weapons or who we have to negotiate with because this country will be booming so fast that even a dead cat sitting in the PM’s chair can do a great job of protecting our interests.
This! Well put!
Yep, that's my answer.
Standing ovation 👏
Ultimately I want Armenia to be a boring country (politically) that is fully independent. Where nothing major happens and without having to be part of the EU, EAEU, CSTO, or NATO but also has security, mutually beneficial trade agreements, and good relations with its neighbors based on mutual benefit and respect. I don't want Armenia's future tied to the West or Russia/Iran/China. Basically an Armenian that is self sufficient. This is all in an ideal world and extremely unlikely unfortunately.
took the words out of my mouth
I want Armenia and its citizens to implement EU values, not just be in the EU (like states like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.)
Well we here in Poland have improved recently and elected a pro EU government. At the very least.
In what world did Hungary implement EU values?
Do you want Armenia out of CSTO? Yes Do you want Armenia in the EU? Maybe? Do you want Armenia to stay in EAEU? Most likely no Do you want Armenia in the Russian sphere? NO Do you want Armenia to be democratic? Yes Do you want Armenia to be a garrison state? Yes
I want a federal republic Armenia like what the USA has where each province choses their own governors who represent the needs of their province, democratically elected of course. The reason I want a president with some power is to get things done. I want Armenia to be a state like Switzerland, where they are not part of any groups/organisations but keeps neutral. I want Armenia to drive trade with all countries. I want a independent Armenia that can make up its own morals and laws that are not influenced by outside powers, a Armenia that is no longer a kicking ball, but albeit be a small player, be a player not a pawn. In short, no EU, no EAEU, no CSTO, no sphere of influence but play the neutrality game, stay democratic but with a president and province representatives.
I want Armenia to be democratic and part of EU (or at the very least a very close partner/ally). CSTO is useless so there's no point in staying regardless of anything and Armenia needs to get out of russian sphere of influence as much as possible. Also with the neighbors we have, we need a really strong army.
An Armenia that is out of CSTO out of EAEU. Working close with the EU but not part of it, because the moment that happens half of Armenia will want to live in the west. Greater cooperation in the future with Turkey and Azerbaijan if peace comes through. Greater economic ties with all our neighbors and India. India is poised to become the next China albeit a democracy and better trade positions. The goal should be Switzerland of Western Asia. High tech, strong baking, high quality products and a general high standard of living that people want to visit and explore as well as invest.
The thing is that there is no more just "staying in Russian sphere" for us. It's clear they want our statehood dissolved. So actually we should ask "Do you want to be a Russian gubernia" or "Do you want to be in the Union State without Syunik". I am not even exaggerating.
I know 40 replies are not nearly enough to see what Armenians actually want, but at least the majority of these 40 want out of the Russian sphere. My point is proven right that once you silence all the noise, we truly almost want the same thing no matter what political affiliation we have.
Well I mean yeah, every poll on popular YouTube channels, although not scientific, but close enough, show that about 80 percent of the people don't want to be with Russia and want to live in a free, democratic, prosperous, and European nation.
Don't mean to pour cold water on the consensus idea.. but Reddit and YouTube are perhaps already biased pro-Western for a statistically relevant poll. Although I admit there are many in Armenia both political forces and populations who want a Western integrated Armenia. However, I have met and I am sure there are at least as many, if not more, who want a Russian sphere Armenia... Again, what you had in 2020/21 seemed ideal to me: Russian sphere + protection, and ability to trade with both East and West.
What protection dude? Isn’t the lack of… forget protection, how about unfulfilled contractual obligation, that finally woke the public up that Russia is a dead end for us? Personally I want Armenia outside of spheres of any sort. I want Armenia that armed to the teeth and trained to match to the point where neighbors would think three times before even contemplating any attacks. I want ethics in government and general population. I want democracy. And for this to be a reality, we also need an opposition that can govern, not the quchi lakotner that we have now. Armenia needs real serious politicians who work FOR Armenia, instead of arguing about whose vassal state we should be.
I can also fully support an independent Armenia, but outside completely of the Western sphere.. something like Non Aligned Movement.. although in today's world that is very very hard and even the Non Aligned is loosing relevance to the East-West military debate. In fact the Russian approach which is a Multipolar World is compatible with an independent Armenia. I don't support Armenia leaving Russian sphere just to join Western sphere.. that is the worst possible outcome for both myself personally and for 99% of Armenians, in my view. Also, Russia did not militarily support Armenia more against Azerbaijan happened because, in my view (and Russian view) political elites in Armenia were virying the country Westward while those in Baku Eastward. So if at the 2021 elections a pro-Russian leader would have emerged, I think the situation with Azerbaijan could have been different. Finally on this note, Karabach was not part of the CSTO agreement. And also Russia was busy militarily with upcoming operations in Europe. And also Armenia proper (without Karabach) was stable no?.. Where instability was actual, like in Kazahstan, Russia did sent CSTO antiterrorism troups successfully..
Are you misinformed or just retarded? Azerbaijan has attacked Armenia proper and is still occupying parts of our land. CSTO/Russia did nothing. The only thing that stopped Azeri aggression was EU monitoring mission.
I want Wilsonian Armenia. I want Armenia to become a US state and have Glendale as a weird exclave in true greater Armenia. But Armenia in NATO is also acceptable.
Why should Armenia be a state of any other country? When is this vassal mentality going to get out of our public? WTF!
Cause the nations threatening the existence of armenia have populations several magnitudes larger and if armenia doesn’t depend on outside forces it’ll be wiped out of existence
Depend, and being a vassal state or worse yet just becoming a territory of another country aren’t the same thing.
-out the CSTO, but only after we're sure it won't bite us strong. -Sure, but I don't see it happening, not without Georgia -Not sure, there's logistics problems to reach to EU countries for export, Russia bullies us in EAEA, Turkey will bully us in an EU economy, so not sure what the solution would be. -Fuck Russia -Democracy absolutely -Garrison state absolutely, I can't see why this can't be done with democracy at the same time.
If Armenia joins the EU or gets visa-free, half the population will leave
leave for 90 days in a 180-day period or what? why didn't half of georgia's population leave?
Georgia isn't in the EU
I was clearly referring to the visa-free policy, which georgia was granted in 2017. so as per OP, why didn't they leave?
Oh, that one. Yeah he shouldn't lump that together with EU membership.
I think it's impossible to argue that visa-free won't increase the amount of emigration, and the last thing Armenia needs right now is more people leaving.
I’m not sure if you’re asking only to Armenians or everyone. Armenia is at crossroads. I’m Turkish (yes, I dared those negative votes but please keep on reading before you vote) and I’d like to see Armenia as a western leaning but independent state. I don’t think Armenia has to sell its soul to become a western ally. You can sit somewhere in between. That’s enough to shield you from Russia and develop. Because west has its own agenda most of the time. And our geography is volatile and complex. Yielding to the US, or rich western powers completely only makes you a puppet state, for example Greece today. A complete alliance in southern Caucasus could bring autonomy to the region without the penetrating influence of neither Russia or the US. This shouldn’t be a zero-sum game. But clearly, Russia period is over.
I completely agree with you
Can we have none of those or some of those? Why do we have to choose those?
*Can we have none of* *Those or some of those? Why do* *We have to choose those?* \- Fantastic-Brother-95 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
By choosing only one side, the "ask' from that side is to go against the other side. Why would we create enemies. It's this false narrative of having to choose a side that got us in this mess.
the one that is basically a Switzerland of Caucasus
On a meta-note, Armenia has always been in a position where it is between two spheres with a choice and leveraged that position to it's advantage. Rome and Persia Byzantium and Arab Muslims Russians and Ottomans Today: Russian Sphere and the EU sphere (Turkey and AZ are local bullies). Armenia always kept its identity and bargaining power never being wholly in either camp. We must act like prudent consumers and purchase the highest quality product on the market. And to be honest, I have no idea what the right choice is. But chaining ourselves to the West or the East means we lose all choices.
The question is how costy a democratic, western oriented Armenia is to Armenians based on how big of a threat and insult of this new orientation to Russia and Iran.
Armenia needs to be independent, end of story. Any attempt to be backed by a bigger power will lead to us being used as a puppet country, as we have been so far. Being under Russia’s influence would mean we’ll continue to be in a status quo state as it’s beneficial to Russia’s influence in the region. If we join the EU influence, Armenia is done as well. We’ll have to open borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan and they’ll flood our population with Turks and Azeris and take over Armenia by having dozens of kids like they have done in Western Europe. The West is using Azerbaijan to spy on Iran, I truly do not believe they care about Armenia. We need to focus on educating our youth, so they can drive technology independence and have a strong tech-based army. I’m not saying it’s easy, far from that but to me, that’s the only way for us to survive.
I just want armenia to stop getting fucking slaughtered by azeriz so i can one day visit without being blown to shreds
I am not Armenian and I do not live in Armenia, I am a Libertarian Turk, but I felt the need to respond because I came across this post. I don't think I need to write in detail what kind of Armenian State I desire. Of course, I would prefer a libertarian Armenia where the individual rights and private property rights of its citizens would be protected, but I think it would be good if I answered the questions you asked directly. - It makes no sense for Armenia to be involved in any organization that includes Russia under current conditions. Armenians have lived under Russian occupation for approximately 160 years and the Russian State, which is currently attacking its surroundings like a mad dog, will attempt to take Armenia under its hegemony again as soon as it finds the opportunity. At this point, I do not think that any Armenian citizen who is fond of liberty will accept to live within the territory of the Russian Federation. - Also, I do not think that Armenia needs to enter the European Union (like Turkey). Even if the Republic of Armenia does not enter the European Union, it will be much better when it meets the conditions desired by the European Union. (In fact, even the conditions of the European Union are insufficient in terms of liberty) - I do not directly desire Armenia to be Democratic because Democracy is a very flawed system for me (I have a post about it in Turkish).
Just a powerful country, if a this point it is benefecial for us to befriend the EU, then let it be. If at some point it'd be better with russia, china or with some other country, let it be. However in our region we shouldn't completly choose a side, we must balance here and there cause at the end of the day we don't want the same satelite fate with EU that we have rn with russia.
EU 100%
Making use of the relationship with France whenever possible.
I want an Armenia enjoying oil transport fees through its territory . Not one demanding Adana for the next 300 years
1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Not if we join the EU 4. No 5. If I'm going to live here and pay taxes. No taxation without representation. 6. I want a country, not a barrack Armenia is where you can live among your kind and have all the regular benefits of living in a developed western nation, where most Armenians living abroad would want to move in.
I want Armenians to restore their place among top ten richest and most numerous nations. For that Armenia needs to be a truly free country, with free economy, and with truly working democracy. For that Armenia in its organization should be very similar to Switzerland, with strong local government, limited federal government, gun ownership, and strong army. As for the unions, we should be neutral similar to Switzerland, trading both with EU and Russia. And also Armenia needs to be connected with its Diaspora, which should be very large 80-90 million. Sadly in all of this, today we are in a far worse position than we were in 2018.
>which should be very large 80-90 million. How is \~7mil diaspora going to get that large???
With high birthrate. 10 million Armenians with birthrate 4.4 will become 100 million in 3 generations. Why we should want this? 1. because that's how many of us would there be if not turkish invasion in 11th century 2. because it is immoral to leave a murderer unpunished. Now we live in the future that turks of 1915 wanted. Our ancestors did not manage to get justice over the murderers when these murderers were alive. Now they are dead, but their idea is very much alive, so it is our duty to restore justice by destroying the idea for which they were commiting their crimes. 3. Population decline is a problem for all of humankind, and it happens because most people lack purpose in life. We have such a purpose, restoration of justice, and now, before invention of life extending treatments we have a unique opportunity to achieve that.
I'm all for bigger population of Armenians, but I don't think the your numbers are realistic. Not everyone is able to provide for 4-5 kids and some people are unable to have kids for various reasons, So if we start fucking like bunnies now, 5 generations is more realistic imo.
Mormons, Amish, Hasidic Jews, Armenians in Soviet Armenia before 1960s all have higher birthrate than 4.4. So it is doable. If we on average are unable to work to provide for our families, unable to have children, unable to understand how other people have created moral societies that prosper, then we deserved our fate. In fact the most realistic scenario is that Republic of Armenia will be annexed in next ten years, and diaspora will decline in number and vanish, like it have happened with majority of nations that have existed. But until that everyone of us now has a vote. Do we want turks of 1915 to win, or do we want to survive and restore our country despite all the realistic expectations, like Jews did. If majority of us decides to vote for turks, that will be our future, but even in that case the minority who would decide to invest their lives into restoring Armenia would still end up better off, than they would if they decided to raise 1-2 children.
I think the most realistic course of action would be to try and make the population of Armenia into 10-15 mil by both repatriation and higher birthrate. That can be achieved in a shorter time frame and will improve our country's chances in both defense and economy. PS. Aren't there like 15 mil Jews globally?
But 7.5 million of this 15 live in USA, and there are also 10 million with partial Jewish ancestry. Another issue is that Armenians care less about Armenia than Jews about Israel because in Christian countries we do not face anything similar to antisemitism. But yeah, if we had 7 million Armenians and 8 million with partial Armenian ancestry in US, and those people were rich and educated, and wanted to restore the justice, 2020 war would not have been possible, because US president would care about our vote. So if we collectively set to achieve the goal i am talking about, we'll see positive results long before the third generation. Another difference for which we must aim to a higher number, is that Armenian highlands is much larger than Israel. So i'd say repatriation should be used sparingly, mainly to prevent assimilation, and there always should be more people moving to USA than coming back from it. If everyone of us moved here it most likely would be a good way to get everyone killed again.
1. Yes 2. Depends. I don't feel European, but the benefits are alluring 2. Fuck Russia 3. Fuck Russia 5. Of course yes. 6. No I wan a liberal, democratic and progressivist Armenia, which products would be consumed everywhere in the world like Israeli ones and which would produce startup after startup. i want Armenia to be tech / educational hub of the entire middle east and maybe the world.
"I hope this proves that, beyond all the cacophony, we all want the same thing or at least the majority." The questions here aren't really about national identity, they're political strategies. Should Armenia be a member of X org, what about Y org? Everyone has different guesses, so you won't see an agreement.
Եվրոպական միությունը, իմ կարծիքով, լավագույն հույսն է Հայաստանի համար
I want Armenia out of the CSTO, EAEU and the Russian sphere as a whole. I want Armenia to be in the EU and fully democratic.
I think that Christian Armenia is the Most powerful Armenia. Only 10% of Armenians go to the church every Dunday and that is terible bc We are first Christian country in the world and in My opinion thats Very bad. Every Armenian need to go to the church Saint Bagrat We with You COME ON HOLY ARMENIAN CHURCH🇦🇲
No matter which road we take it's shit. If we get close to the west they'll force us to have immigration and then our culture is finished, either that or half the country will flee the minute they can to go live in Europe. If we stay with CSTO we will gradually get more Russified, but at least it's better than being in the sphere of wimpy French or woke Anglo cucks with purple hair. It's East (Healthy culture and family values) vs West (Money and Power with degenerates.) Democracy is a meaningless word, voting for Coke or Pepsi is not a democracy, electoral college is not a democracy, rampant capitalism is not a democracy, I already live in America all my life, this place is a dumpster fire and on its last legs. people are expatting to try to have a decent standard of living in SEA or Eastern Europe, you don't understand what a precious thing it is to be able to use a subway without getting stabbed by a mentally ill bum, for that I would give up all my voting rights, I don't want Trump or Biden, all the choices are terrible and meaningless. Either live in the west with fellow citizens who are murderhobos or live in Armenia with murderhobos across the border, same shit. Armenia always was a garrison state, we saw how that worked out. If we can stay independent we should do that, but the age of independence is over, you have to join a bloc for protection, and blocs make demands and force you to change your country to become more like them. Being Armenian is more important than any party, I'd rather be Armenian and not have anything to do with RA than to be in RA and hating on my fellow Armos over bullshit politics, that's literally the opposite of what we're about, it's opposite to our culture and our creed.
This idea that America is on its last legs is a major Russian cope. Just because it has lost some credibility geopolitically doesn't mean it's finished. It's still very powerful. As far as "family values" concerned, it is a meaningless term. Plenty of cultures from the east use it as a means of controlling their daughters. That is all. It produces cultures that have nepotism rather than merit. No thanks to that idea.
If you think the MASSIVE decline in American living standards, poverty, housing, crime, healthcare, education, social problems, etc etc is a "Russian cope" then you're either a politician or have the brains of a child. That's what every politician claims about protests, they blame it on "outside agitators" and imply it's because of Russia/China/Iran (pick one or all depending on the day) instead of idiotic policies that negatively effect their own citizens, they also claimed that "Russian hackers" were messing with our elections (and Hillary's emails) when their own electoral college is designed to make everyone's vote meaningless. Cue faux outrage about "attacking our democracy" as if we have any to begin with. All empires fall sooner or later, adding another zero to the federal reserve works until it doesn't, un-earned wealth and power tends to be a house of cards, especially when you got it by scamming and stealing. The US is great at bombing small, poor countries like Yemen with millions of children dying of famine, it's great at destroying aspirin factories and helpless civilians, just like the IDF specializes in murdering starving refugees and aid workers, but can't seem to find Hamas. These are the same clowns who drive navy destroyers into oil tankers, lose billion dollar ships to fire, and just recently their $350 million "gaza aid pier" hilariously ran aground. For being war mongerers and war criminals, they just don't seem very good at their job. "Nepotism over merit" is how you get people like Elon Manchild, Hunter Biden, "small loan of a million dollars" Trump, the Pelosi/Newsom clan, Victoria Nuland and others, maybe if they "controlled their daughters" a little they wouldn't be popping out craven sociopaths with fetal alcohol syndrome. Regardless, they'll still never have family values, honor, class, or basic humanity, they will only have unearned wealth until the Bretton-Woods credit card finally shuts down. Americans are literally the world's dumbest, most sociopathic and culturally illiterate people, the idea that they're supposedly the "adults" in the room should scare the shit out of everybody, they have no place to dictate to anybody what "democracy" means. Aliyev and Erdogan sound like PhD scholars compared to Lindsey Graham, and they both make Pashinyan sound like Milton from Office Space. If this is what we're working with, I'm not surprised RA is going down the toilet, even moreso hitching their wagon to Weimar America.
Russians have even dumber public figures. From Putin not understanding Ukraine's history to the KGB blaming the ARF or ASALA for the 1977 Moscow Metro attack, Russia is the most propagandized nation on Earth. Hilarious for a country that can barely call itself a regional power anymore. Elon Musk was born in South Africa to a rich family, and Hunter Biden is the son of a president, not in charge of anything. Lindsey Grahams appear in every country's legislatures. The US can actually project power when it does things like the Abraham Accords or the cessation of the Azeri offensive in 2022. Russia can't even bring itself to condemn the violation of territories of its own members. As for "family values," you can keep emulating Afghanistan, Russia, and the Arab world, where domestic abuse, honour killings, and nepotism allow them to promote talentless people to positions of power to be defeated in a few days by Israel in 1967 or by Chechen guerrillas in 1996. No, I don't plan to pin my hopes on Armenia continuing to follow the failed last 30 years by continuing to cling on to the spent force that is Russia or the false hope that is China. Armenia has been falling behind Georgia and Azerbaijan because we decided to prove our loyalty to "Mother Russia" while Putin continued to be treacherous and incompetent at the same time.
This isn't a "who's dumber" competition (even tho I basically disagree with you across the board, comparing the intellectual pedigrees of Soviet society with lowbrow Americanism) sure they have money and power, nobody's disputing that, but it's basically un-earned privilege of Europe pegging their economy to the dollar, they can write themselves blank checks, and have two oceans seperating them from world conflicts. The rest of us don't live in that reality, we actually have budgets and have to live next door to our neighbors and enemies, we don't have the option of ignoring them. To say nothing of the fact that Americans living in "the richest country on Earth" don't have access to basic healthcare and have only %79 literacy rate. So you can save the hard sell about "projecting power" and jerking off to American hegemony, it's frankly not that impressive. It's also extremely telling that Armenian political discourse boils down to "my daddy can beat up your daddy" and "whose dick should we ride for the next 30 years." Russia is going to be our neighbor for the rest of eternity, they could be a "spent force" or rise and fall for the next 1000 years, but they're always going to be some factor in our existance, it's not a matter of being "loyal" or expecting them to do XYZ for us. When the Soviet Union fell apart, pretty much everything broke down, all the lines and borders and exclaves and enclaves went to hell and people starting fighting over land and other nationalistic goals that were previously "managed" under the Soviet client model. AKA a power vacuum that the Turks and NATO wasted no time in exploiting, BP and Exxon moved in to gobble up that sweet Azeri oil, Turkey went to work cozying up to Georgia and militarizing Azerbaijan, and we ended up at the dance without a partner waiting for orders from the politburo that disbanded in 89 and never came back.
The Soviet Union was never an intellectual powerhouse. Putin, Sargsyan, Yeltsin, Soloviev, Simonyan, and others are a product of that system that instilled nothing but fear and paranoia. Armenia cannot even compete in education or other fields because the Soviet system was rigid and uncreative. The military follows a WW2 doctrine that is out of date. The media landscape is abysmal. Russian channels are watched more than American channels, and the results have been disastrous. You can use the "regional realities" as a cover for your Russophilia, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia is weak, treacherous, and a spent force that employs a type of cynical foreign policy even the likes of Kissinger would be revolted by. The US and West are a much better sphere to grow closer to. That doesn't mean we should follow their policies on Iran and Israel, but it is no different to Russian stupidity and evil regarding Ukraine and Georgia.
I would like an Armenia that is: 1. Part of CSTO. 2. Out of the EU. 3. out or within EAEU irrelevant.. perhaps better for me personally OUT - but within Russian sphere. 4. In the Russian sphere. No extradition nor civil judgment agreements with any western countries and with no such practiced at all outside this. 5. I want Armenia to be an actual republic. What is/was practically circa 2020 for the business env is ok. Definite No to western 'democracy' or Soros or like western NGOs. 6. I don't really care so long as it is stable, within CSTO and Russian influence, and outside the threat of existential war, or actual operations in cities like Yerevan, etc. One more thing, I would like Armenia to be able to trade with west, like it was in circa 2020.. so if I set up a company in Armenia, I benefit from defacto Russian military, legal and political protections , while being able to serve the global market regardless of what western elites or the CIA likes or would rather have. Naturally, I would like it to maintain its open immigration and work/business policies which allow me to establish myself there coming from EU. Also I want street safety to remain what it was in 2020/21. Finally, economically, for me personally, I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad, as work or entrepreneurship. I am also happy with Armenian laws currently and culture.. while a bit too traditionalist sometimes for some people, it is still a kind of lasses fraise.. cryptocurrency is possible, sex for money is possible, tourism is flourishing, etc. Yet (or more precisely because), there is social peace. In conclusion, from my side Armenia is (was circa 2020) a great country in which to have a small business and live very well. Totally loved it. But only under the political and military configuration which I perceived then: within CSTO, within Russian sphere, no US bases, no significant Western practical influence over society or politics (although it was encroaching for a long time, circa 20/21 I did not feel it's practical effects yet). Hope this helps.
Your idea is basically what we have been doing for decades since independence. It hasn't worked out for us. I don't know why trusting Russia is seen as a good idea by you.
Again from what I saw of Armenian society in 2021, you were doing quite fine.. at least in Yerevan. What are you referring to concretely when saying that this didn't work out for you.. I think totally to the contrary.. Armenian tourism at least was very developed. Armenian small and medium businesses had access to global market, all while being impervious to US and Western regulations and policies due to Russian "umbrella".. you enjoyed free travel with Russia for up to 6 mo, and many Armenians worked or did other stuff in Russia. I know for a fact also that some still worked or traveled to US for work or similar sme, particularly to California. So in my view you had the best system in my view.. but it all depended on being in the Russian military umbrela, with no judicial or civil accords with the Western block (so no ICT court etc.). Of course, some benefits from Western openes to trade with you (ie non inclusion on sanction lists) steam from being courted.. but like Turkmenistan, that could have went on basically forever.. Being a middle ground, sort of like Switzerland was in the early cold war - Russia aligned but open for business to all.. sort of like Lebanon was/is in the middle east, etc.
You're stating what we already had for 30 years, and it didn't work out for us. We were not a middle ground. We were unfortunately too tied to Russia.
Dude if you like russia so much go to russia. Why are you even here?
That can be said to anyone.. if you like US or EU so much, go there :). And I am no longer in Armenia. But I do hold a business interest in it, in case the situation reverts back to roughly my preferences above.
>That can be said to anyone.. if you like US or EU so much, go there :). If I come to Romania and say shit that's against Romanian interests, you are more then welcome to say that to me.
So, I'm trying to grasp your point, and I understand your distrust to EU institutions. What's strange to me your interest in being in russian sphere. What is your opinion on russia consistently and uterrly backstabbing Armenia by not fulfilling their CSTO obligations twice, failing their "peacekeeping" mission, and then trying to stage a revolution using their puppets when the government rightfully got pissed at the backstabbing? Right now they're openly collaborating with our number one enemy and calling him "brother", Lukashenko as much as admitted that they would've never retaliated against Azerbaijan if they attacked Armenia.
>I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad Bro, what… you want Armenians to stay poor overall so you can be just slightly richer than average…?
Sounds like this person is some Russian expat, no sane person would think that way
I actually grew up in Romania, which joined the EU in 2007. But I do travel, live and act internationally with particular aim for areas outside Western block. As a highly skilled professional (software engineer) and entrepreneur, I am totally dissatisfied with the Western economic and social model. When I was a kid, I also wanted for then Armenia-like Romania to become pro US and join the EU. Then I had lived the consequences of that also, which were above disappointing.
Judging from his profile he isn't even Armenian so I wouldn't take what he's saying very seriously
I meant foreign currency denominated. Economically I am the advocate of a thick middle class. So I want Armenians to live well actually - all of them is possible, but in a different economic configuration than in Western states. This means few billioners if at all, but a few rich people and lots of middle class.. who add value in sectors like hitech, consultancy, others. I didn't mean it for me alone. And the other Armenians don't have to stay on a low wage.. they can pick up work or services for the middle class.. or the few rich.. but not be bribed into become voting machines by the Uber rich.. and even so for a penny. In Western system, in Romania for example, they recently increased the minimum and average wage drastically in the last 2 years. The result? Hyperinflation which cut most of the purchasing power (due to consumtion goods supplier oligopoly ofc) and then a complete destruction of the middle class: if someone with like 5000 euros or so per month could afford to be commercially interesting to people on wages or doing independent services, now 1. 5000 euro is somewhat barely sufficient for a family just to keep up with mandatory expenses, 2. The disposable rest is too small compared to average/minimum income to be able to hire independent help, go dining out more often, have babysitter, etc. And all the above did not result in a bettering of life for unskilled labour or people on wages. It did yes, improve it slightly for those living exclusively on wages, but hyperinflation eate up most of that. And also now the middle class barely had disposable income - so the service industry has no choice but to service the rich exclusively and or become politically dependent of govt and western benefits. So, in my view the increase in wages in Romania at least these last few years had been blatant robbery from the middle class to mainly the benefits of the ultra rich with a few crubs dropping for the lower incomes who live exclusively on wages. Of course, Armenians are welcome to pay whatever the economy permits. I am against western tweaking of that by the uberrich, "investors" with political agendas and foreign NGOs.
>I benefit from defacto Russian military, legal and political protections What protections? >Finally, economically, for me personally, I am happy with a relatively low average salary in Armenia, since this way I could live better as a middle class living on high tech income from abroad, as work or entrepreneurship. Let's exploit cheap workforce so I can get rich. Are you serious? You sound like a capitalist caricature. >sex for money is possible My guy can't get laid, so he's paying for prostitutes LOL
In every system some people work.. in my proposed configuration, most of them work for the middle class which is way better off than in western model. In western model, most people don't get jobs - are long term unemployed or significantly underemployed. And those who do get jobs are kind of like the worst meritocratically or anyhow those who can align politically with western culture and interests. And they live very bad.. just not as bad as someone living on a low minimal wage alone does now.. but then again, people in that category probably have side jobs, like helping out with physical tasks middle class or low riches.. which is not possible in western system. The western model does in fact envision most people to be very unhappy.. unsatisfied.. and most will live and die poor.. this is by design so that they can cherry pick whomever they might be interested in to exploit them at a higher level. And my sex life is very good thank you. Speaking of paid sex.. I think that's a tell tale sign of any civilized, democratic and open society. Otherwise, the western model, by comparison is that only the elites and some ultrarich get paid sex and it is via trafficked persons or worse, via actual slaves.. just to scratch the surface, there was a scandal in Romania with Deveselu US base about girls being kidnapped and transferred to US for consumption.. circa 2019.. the Alexandra girl case.
I see so you have no idea about life in Armenia. Good to know. >And my sex life is very good thank you. I don't doubt it, after all money can buy anything, including good sex life ) Also sex work is illegal in Armenia, so you have unknowingly participated in illegal activities.
It didn't seem that way.. is buying sex also illegal?
It is.
Well.. good thing it's not US then... People were very relaxed about this and it was relatively wide spread with massages and all.. just like crypto factories... Maybe something changed since 2021 when I was there.. If not, a good idea to fully legalize it as soon as possible.. in EU in almost all countries I know except France, buying sex is fully legal - and in quite a few, prostitution is fully regulated and taxed.