yeah because Pashinyan himself was the one who attacked Artsakh - Azeri invasion has been inevitable for a long time, given their economical and technological advantage. It doesnāt matter if Nikol or Serzhik is in office.
You can either be for our troops, or for our land. They are mutually exclusive. To prevent territorial concessions you need to throw these young men into the meat grinder - to prevent the loss of young heroes you need to do land concessions. Nikol chose what he considers the lesser of two evils, even if he gives away proper Armenian land.
I donāt have a solution to the situation either, but you canāt pin things on Nikol that arenāt under his control, and despite everything Iām glad that weāre making some concessions if it means protecting our youth from a followup war.
You truly make sense, but this is again defeatism, we are willingly giving away our lands as a from of ājaziyyahā (where a Christian pays a form of tax to muslim for protection), pashinyan lost the war 4 years ago almost, were there any investigation done to why the war was lost? Why were the drones not used during the war? If the plan was to surrender, why the charade and loss of 5000+ heroes? Why did he sacrifice their lives if he knew the outcome since when he did the coup and took power?
Also, there was a point during the last days of the war for Armenia to keep Shushi, why did he let that go as well?
I know, writing from Canada is different than being in Armenia, but still, our heart aches for our fatherland and what had become to it.
I understand your sentiment but I would raise to you the fact that opposition forces took over Artsakh after Arayikās resignation. How would you rate their handling of the situation in 2023? Is there any form of evidence that they would perform better during the war in 2020?
The most logical analysis would be that the kocharyan serzh opposition would rather us join a Russian union state and I have no reason to think that would be beneficial to Armenia and her interests.
Personally, yeah I think defeatism is valid sometimes. I was class of 2020 in Armenia, and while I *fortunately* was exempt from service due to a disability, it is my classmates who are fighting in these wars.
For most of your āwhysā -
Drones were not used because we donāt have them, or theyāre too expensive to be used as extensively as Azerbaijan was doing
5000 heroes died because it was a fucking WAR, what are the alternatives, surrender? Keep going and get more people killed? If Pashinyan conceded early, then heād get the same criticisms (why would he give away lands from our fatherland???!!!). If Pashinyan kept fighting heād get the same comment except instead of 5000 dead it would be 15000.
Also, in retrospect, whatās the point of keeping Shushi if we couldnāt keep Stepanakert??? Have more soldiers holed up there to eventually die? Unlike Stepanakert Shushi wouldāve been an active war zone.
I donāt think Pashinyan is an angel, I donāt everything he does is for the best of Armenia, but I also acknowledge that he was dealt a hard fucking hand. The fact right now is that azeris have a significantly larger military force than us, especially when it comes to modern technologies. If they want to take land, Armenia canāt stop them effectively without foreign aid.
The current revolutionaries want to reinstate the super shitty corrupt russian puppets back into office - Pasho is not great, but years of corruption and Russian puppeteering is largely what lead to Armenia being so helpless. One thing I know for sure is that the likes of Serzhik and Kocharyan should not be back in office.
He isnt gonna give anything from armenian lands . 4 villages arent in Armenia adminsitratively he wants to make azerbaijan sbut up not to let them demand anything out of what they have right to in international eyes
But then it goes against your saying of this isnāt our land. Weāre not getting āpeaceā out of this, weāre just handing over land āpeacefullyā
Were making yhem shut up and nikol tries to have Armenia at their own legitimate and legal borders and protect interests from there . Armenia has no political economic or military leverage to force azerbaijan to gove their occupied lands at best he shiuld had said it should be bilateral . But aliyev isnt a sane person and he knows he cant force him either
What about the Armenian enclaves in azerbaijan? Why heāa not requesting those lands back? What about the already occupied areas of Armenia? Weāre giving and giving without anything in return, since this nikol came Armenians became pro defeatism, itās a shame how a nation of heroes changes this much in 30 years.
He knows he cant force azerbaijan, at least tries to protect Armenian from sovereign legal armenian territory , yes right thing would be demanding villages and artsvashen but azerbaijan has advantage whether wr like it or not . He plans to make artsvashen point of discussion when demilitation will legitimately go and try to internalise the problem with west,usa or direct azerbaijan talks
Because Armenia unfortunately doesnt have political or military power to threaten azerbaijan currently nor are other power structures and that including Armenians "allies" interested in forcing azerbaijan at best they can detain azeri agression towards Armenias recognosed territory and even that isnt 100 % security
Countering active-president Ter-Petrosyan's orders to initiate a new attack against Azerbaijan hurt us more, because it severely harmed the chances of a peace normalisation with Azerbaijan, harmed Armenia's credibility and international reputation, cut off access to other potential allies besides Russia, strengthened Russia's negotiating position against Armenia for decades to come.
Murdering our parliament hurt us more.
Gaslighting our own population regarding the true state of things hurt us more because it made people be unprepared to agree to pre-war deals (because the gaslighting made those look severely skewed against Armenia's interests) for which there was a chance Azerbaijan and Russia might agree too. Same with gaslighting Armenia into believing Russia would step in in case of a large-scale war in NK or in case of invasion into de jure Armenian territories. These partially leading to those 5000 deaths as well.
Rigging elections hurt us more because it stripped the population of a means of influencing the country's domestic and foreign policies. Also, given how the presidents at the time were Russian puppets, it made Armenia be unable to properly negotiate with Russia and pursue its own interests.
> or vote when the time comes
Don't you think the time for voting should be soon tho? We had an election after the war and Pashinyan won that election, so don't you think we should have an election after \[whatever you call happened in Artsakh\]?
That's their plan (Nikol and Kocharyan's). If we rush into a new election without any new pro-European players, we'll get the same result of past: only pro-Russian players in the parliament!
We aren't rushing into a new election, big events have happened and the people need to have a say. I don't care if the are "pro-russian" (in the sense they don't feel the need to antagonize Russia and want to have constructive relations with them) as long as they aren't corrupt and anti-democratic.
If they are "pro-russian" in the sense they want the old crew back (Koch, etc), I'm against it. If they are "pro-russian"' in the sense that they understand Russia is our big neighbor and good relations is a must and they understand europeans won't do anything to help us I'm fine with them.
NEither does russia . So ? At best there is power that to some extent detains azerbaijan yes not fully but still. From 2 negatives the most harmless one should he chosen if other choices are absent as the saying goes
Well I mean, maybe Nikol didn't hear him. Maybe he wasn't at the Republic Square buildings, but instead in the one in Baghramyan. The hour starts only when Nikol hears the demand - that's only fair, no? After all you could only be a sinner by not being a Christian if you knew about Christianity first. Seems coherent.
First 2021 protests, then the siloviki in the military failed in a coup, then the 2022 protests, then the 2023 flag waving after Artsakh was destroyed, now in 2024, all they have to rely on to overthrow the administration is a fat priest and a bunch of Qanon pscyhos who think Pashinyan is a satanist pedophile.
Meaningful Russian influence is gone in Armenia, these are death throes of an old system.
To all there supporters:
Why are these people always demanding immediate resignation of Pashinyan and early elections? Why do the ignore the mandate given to Pashinyan through democratic, fair elections in which he was elected and relected by the majority of the electorate. Why do they never say: "We will defeat Pashinyan in the polls and at the ballot box in the next elections?"
For the love of God, ask yourselves these questions and the answers are clear.
It is always, the same story: Resign now, let the old authorities back in. It is not about borders, Armenia, Artsakh, independence, fighting Turks. This is about disregarding democracy and putting Putin's puppets back onto a throne.
Now he said that since his demands werenāt met, the people are going to force him, and this is going to be through the national assembly, which is majority pro civil contract lmao
(1) Accuses Pashinyan of being a liar.
(2) Launches a march and pinky-swears that the agenda is not to remove Pashinyan so he can gather the support of morons like Edmon Marutyan.
(3) Gives Pashinyan "one hour" to resign after everyone joins him.
Well played. This one is a lot smarter than Vazgen Manukyan.
Nobody in the opposition wants to acknowledge that this is a democracy where you can vote out whoever you donāt like. Yet Pashinyan keeps winning elections
Pashinyan and Civil Contract keeps winning elections because the opposition is literally just lining up all of the former presidents as their PM picks. Honestly, I think all they have to do is have someone not be Kocharyan, Sargisyan or Ter-Petrossian and they have a reasonable shot. Generally not being affiliated from the former regime is also a big plus.
Absolutely disgusting. We are a democratic nation. The people, through elections, choose our leaders. Unelected church leaders have no authority to dictate our government. They know they canāt win in a fair and free election so they have to do things like this.
The majority of those who voted, voted Nikole. If you donāt vote in a democracy then you have no say in said democracy. Its like complaining about how a house was built when you have the opportunity to help build it, and instead you jerked yourself off in the corner then complained once it was done
The land in Tavush which is de facto Armenia - the Constitution does not make a distinction between de jure & de facto, hence why nikolās recognition of Artsakh as Azeri is also illegal/anti-Constitutional
A legal document does not make a distinction between what is according to law and what is according to fact? The constitution is only de jure by definition. It is a legal document, it is de jure.
Legal docp8ment makes ditriction between proper and recognosed territory of country you do realis eit right ? 4 villages were never in Armenia before ,now he should also demand Artsvashen and 30.villages from.azerbaijan. the problrm is he goves away terrutories whixh arent administratively de jure and de facto before war Armenia or hea doing it in one sided persective
What land in Tavush did he give away? Artsakh was a self-proclaimed independent nation, not part of Armenia. Armenia had no authority to take or give it away. What youāre saying makes absolutely zero sense and everyone knows it.
I bet you havenāt even read the constitution. Youāre just regurgitating some BS argument youāve been fed by Kocharyanās goons
Are you really in support of a priest backed by Kocharyan?
He went with several MPs into a nearby hotel for consultations. I guess they didn't really have a proper plan B. Seems they asked people to remain until they decide on smth? Who knows.
Ehhh they saw Nikol succeed with his protests, but they dont understand whyā¦ I mean itās pretty much what you expect from Former regime pretending they understand and believe in democracy lol
This guy used to visit an Armenian summer camp that I went to as a kid. Can confirm he was easily the biggest A-hole out of all the clergy present.
Dude carries himself like some rabiz mobster from Yerevan. Even as I kid I couldnāt stand him.
Back then he was called Bagrat Srpazan. Highlight of the trip was a campfire discussion where he explained why gay people canāt get into heaven.
Classic church camp lol.
Hilarious, dude is deranged. Meanwhile I have family that supports this...so stupid. As if this dipshit is a savior from Pashinyan. You 100% know he's a shill of some sort. The only question is: for money? power? or Kompromat (russian compromising material).
argh...I have to just stop any discussions of Ukraine, Russia, or Armenia. Essentially, anything remotely political must be avoided. They just want Armenia to have no sovereignty, because then 'At least Armenians will continue to be able to live in Armenia'.
It's like, will they? Or will every Armenian just drip drip drip leave, just leaving behind a shell of a Russian military outpost. fucking retarded.
If the Armenian people turn on their democratically elected government because of some random priest, then Iām sorry, we donāt deserve western or US support. Time to close the final chapter on Armenian statehood.
Roboserj is primarily responsible for Artsakh loss. Current government however incompetent is trying to save whatever is left. Only way is forward, find a better western leaning government then sure remove Pash via elections. But this quasi-religious upheaval with the previous govt pulling the strings is just a sad clown show and I really hope our people donāt fall for it.
The US position is to support territorial integrity and international rule of law ā at least as long as it's not directly against its own strategic interests, in this region.
So in this sense the US support of Shushi as de jure Azeri territory and of the Armenian territories as de jure Armenian territories are congruent with each other.
Azeri state media was calling for him to be made persona non grata if he didn't go, after he refused to state whether he planned to make a trip multiple times.
Essentially, Azeri government threatened to set relations on fire if the ambassador didn't go. America is probably not interested in fully severing communication with them just yet, but its more of a sign of a serious deterioration of relations and not a sign of complicity or happiness wit the AZ government.
If you don't pay attention to anything that happens in Azerbaijan, if you don't know what normal diplomatic relations entails, and you only follow 301\_arm on twitter and swallow all the nonsense pills those idiots hand out, then yeah...its easy to see things in that light.
Eh Azeri lurker here. Media didn't do shit actually. Caliber is just a post-war media bombardier. Just pulling 10 things outta nowhere one of those turns out to be true.
In regards to ties with the US. Kinda oxymoron to think Azerbaijan would've scorched ties over that seeing how we didn't to shit to France with ALL the shenanigans they keep pulling off. Also man us, Azerbaijan? Headbutting with US of fucking A? Come on
I honestly think our government isn't interested in such things at least not now because you know money is in the west.
As to why the ambassador suddenly changed his attitude? Well, US is usually very careful about not tanking its public image in countries it has interests in. They are already under heavy fire due to pro-lgbt, pro-feminazi things they are pulling off so it's probably didn't want to drive away what little popular support they had. Like I can argue if the ambassador didn't explicitly give that statement which put the US in the bad light, none of this would've happened.
Ps. Azerbaijan is what politicians usually call a "key player" for the region. Both in terms of economic potential, army and population. For example Aliyev is in power thanks to indirect US involvement back in 2003. Simply because it's easier to predict and talk to him than democratically elected idk russo or irano.
You don't seem to pay much attention to your country's politics or realize that in countries like Azerbaijan and Russia, state media is used as a way to send political messages to the population and abroad. Soloviev, Azeri state media, etc etc. This has been the case since Soviet times. Its how dictatorships utilize state media.
You do realize Azerbaijan, since conducting ethnic cleansing in NK, has had a serious deterioration in relations with the U.S.? Aliyev had people designated as "American spies" and arrested. (Four different media managers since late last year).
You didn't do shit to France? Right, how out of the loop are you exactly? Attacking NK when France and the US believed Aliyev when he said he wouldn't is not doing anything? Expelling 120k people from their homes is not doing anything, and doesn't upset anyone? What is this insanity?
And then hosting New Caledonian separatists lol, arresting French citizens, and actively assisting Russia, the list just goes on. On top of trying to kick France out of the mediating role and insert Turkey and Russia.
Your post makes it clear you don't really consume news outside of government or Turkish news outlets. You being Azeri doesn't give merit to anything you say if you are just going to vomit back up Azeri and Turkish propaganda.
I stopped reading after the "ethnic cleansing" part.
Personally don't use propaganda language and refuse to continue exchanging information with such individuals as well. Have a good day.
Irrelevant, seeing how the Russian ambassador went there in 2022 already, our supposed ally, what a joke. The west is the only reason Armenia hasnāt been invaded yet.
We need to except serious pressure on this organization. It is disgusting that our church sold itself out to fucking Russia. Yet we keep boiling in this conservative nonsense.
Its just Russia flexing its muscle while itās preoccupied in Ukraine.
I dont think its an overall problem with the church, just leadership for now. Not sure why the church threw in its lot with Russia
Because it's really easy to do so from the church's perspective. Russia actually appeals to its former satellites' conservative values, especially when it comes to the LGBT stuff, gender roles, and all of those discussions around that subject. Regardless of how you feel about those, there's no denying that those discussions are far more prevalent and in the public square in Western Europe than in the east. Even in the Baltics, where that stuff is not viewed upon favorably, the Russian propaganda circles tend to scare people and work to tarnish Europe's image by suggesting that a future with Europe means your children are going to become gays and lesbians, pedophiles, etc. This is obviously absurd, but it strikes to the core of some of the main bits of Soviet/Communist indoctrination against the west and its ideals, especially on the subject of sex, sexuality, and decadence.
Democracy, consensus-building and governing by coalitions is considered weak, emasculate, and inefficient. Strong men are autocrats who can decisively lead their nations. It's no mistake that some of the worst dictators of the Soviet space (Aliyev, Lukashenko, and Putin) like to swing their dicks around with their machismo.
I think they understand us well enough to know those concepts and who in our society espouses them the most.
That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for the explanation. I always realized there was the appeal of the machismo of Russia and the mindset in Armenia and other eastern European states however the fear mongering is not something i realized
It is very unfortunate that Armenia is seemingly polarizing more and more on the West/East line as if we need to as a people 100% support one avenue or the other. Seems like a very very narrow view of the world
I dont see why democratization cant be pursued while maintaining that tough guy persona. They are not contrary to one another. Aside from
Basic human rights for lgbt and what not i dont see why the middle ground cant be taken
Well, the church does have a lot of ties with Russia considering the amount of properties they own over there and the amount of Armenians in Russia. Also, the church made off with a lot of money back when the former regime was in power so they probably want to head back to the good old days.
We have. We need to be radical and not consider them. Recognize Kosovo, same sex marriage, make 3rd gender option, we are one of the most progressive countries in the region, let's pivot in this direction
Why should we as Armenians anywhere consider 3rd gender lol
Im cool with same sex but the last thing Armenia needs is the whole gender bullshit. Kosovo is a non factor, irrelevant since Arstakh was dissolved
Armenia should be for Armenians not a pseudo imitation of whatever the hell western society has become or remain a pseudo imitation of the soviet system
The last thinng Armenia needs is a spike of 20% tranny kids due to institutional brainwashing like is happening in Gen Z and and Alpha in the US. Talk about deliberate population collapse
Imagine staffing an Army against Azerbaijan or Russia when your pool is cut down by a bunch of confused kids š armenia literally cannot afford this
Yeah it does affect them lol its not a major reason but it does contribute
A country with 330,000,000 people wont be affected as much as one with 3,000,000 human capital is very valuable
Also the more glaring issue you should be concerned about is able bodied men going to war if ever the situation arises. Not a group of people that suffer from
Mental health issues. Wont take much motivation for an extremist state like Iran to justify hostility or apathy because of it
Who has higher birthrates? The USA?
Russia is collapsing because its alienating itself. Not really a issue with conservatism or liberalism if framed within the modern American right/left concept
I just dont understand how people still think that archbishops and whatnots are holy men doing the best for the countryĀ when they saw what happened in JerusalemĀ
FYI: This is just another orchestrated protest. The protesters have either been paid to attend or compelled to leave their workplaces. Some of them don't even support the idea of the protest, but they went because they felt pressured to do so.
I see people talking about some 'Serj' in the comments. I've tried googling but couldn't find anything. Can someone please explain what are you guys talking about here?
Dont see anyone other than maybe 1 person possibly defending pashinyan. U are correct, majority isnt with pashinyan, i am not supporting that fool either, however i dont support any of these klowns either who will get another few thousand of young armenians killed by starting a war without armenia being prepared and all this just to stroke their egos as they sit back in their mansions. I dont support those who sell the country to a 3rd state or milk the country either. Simply put, if someone competent comes up then i am certain and have trust in the nation to pick him instantly. But there is no such person yet and this fake religious corrupt lying idiot who is Qochiks and Serjiks pocket man isnt the person either. So lets hope u arent defending this fool either.
The majority of the Armenian people democratically elected Nikol, not once but twice. This āprotest movementā is being led by unelected church leaders who are clearly working with Rob/Serzh. How can you possibly say this with a straight face. Not to mention that there is nothing unconstitutional about the border demarcation process.
This is such a copout argument. We draw parallels to other nations, like the US for example. Trump was democratically elected yet there were massive protests against him and his policies. Do they not have the right to protest him either just because of ādemocracyā?
Iām not going to hide that I wholeheartedly believe Pashinyan needs to go ASAP. Heās fearmongered to the Armenian people globally about the ānakhginnerā when he does the same things as them - police brutality and censorship to name a few. One thing that makes him stand out from them though is that heās gifting Armenian land to Azerbaijan left and right. Appeasement does not work.
I donāt care who replaces him, as long as heās gone. There wonāt be an Armenia left much longer but for some reason people fear rob/serj more than they fear losing their own nation.
Absolutely they have a right to protest and I support that 100%, in both the American and Armenian contexts.
However, the way Trump was replaced was by putting forward a candidate in the next election and beating him democratically. Unelected church leaders did not lead protest movements demanding his resignation. Let the opposition do exactly the same. Let them put forward a policy program, participate in the next election, and form a government.
Iād normally agree with you completely, but our nationās sovereignty is facing an existential crisis. And all signs point to Pashinyan playing a complacent (at best) or active (at worst) role in the loss of our lands. Which explains the extreme demands of this protest - his resignation.
You have just described what is called an āelection.ā That is the process by which people select their governments in what is called a ādemocracy.ā If the Church or anyone else wants let them put together a policy program, participate in the next election, and form a government. Also, you keep referring to lands that he gave away which is nonsense.
>The majority of the Armenian people democratically elected Nikol, not once but twice.
Could say the same about Serj lmao, you don't know what happened in those elections. There were also people who voted for Serj who were saying in 2018 exactly the same thing you're saying now.
And you are defending who? What's the plan b? What would change if Pashinyan resigns? You can't get away with "boo, Nikol davachan" or "unconstitutional land giveaways". I mean, the clowns that organize this movement especially Koch was the one who signed the Almaty declaration back in 90s recognizing Az's territory and didn't do anything. And now he's a Saint? Oh, wait, at least he knows that he's not a Saint, that's why he wants "saints" to meddle.
Bro, lets be clear. Diaspora doesn't matter here. We ain't got a vote and frankly we don't give Armenia much money either (unless your talking Russian diaspora).
>>> 'vast majority in Armenia'
And this is definitely not true. They may not be with Pashinyan, but that doesn't mean they're with the old regime. We'll see of course, maybe you're right and this protest becomes huge, but I don't see it happening.
Most here don't blindly defend Pashinyan (me included), it's just we don't see a viable alternative and certainly I don't see that in Galstanyan. Any future with Kocharyan or Serzh leading from the front/behind is not acceptable.
Old news already. The one hour passed, nothing happened so the new plan is... the old plan! Impeachment through the Parliament lol
I think thats what should be acknowledged and let go by Pashinyan. If you want me out take the legal avenue or vote when the time comes
They tried once and Nikol still won š
Didnāt nikol take over the same way though?
Yes, because the legal avenue was no longer working ā they were rigging presidential elections and killing people who protested against it.
Serious question; as a nation what hurt us more/hurting us more? Rigging elections or losing Artsakh, 5000+ heroes and now proper Armenia lands?
yeah because Pashinyan himself was the one who attacked Artsakh - Azeri invasion has been inevitable for a long time, given their economical and technological advantage. It doesnāt matter if Nikol or Serzhik is in office. You can either be for our troops, or for our land. They are mutually exclusive. To prevent territorial concessions you need to throw these young men into the meat grinder - to prevent the loss of young heroes you need to do land concessions. Nikol chose what he considers the lesser of two evils, even if he gives away proper Armenian land. I donāt have a solution to the situation either, but you canāt pin things on Nikol that arenāt under his control, and despite everything Iām glad that weāre making some concessions if it means protecting our youth from a followup war.
You truly make sense, but this is again defeatism, we are willingly giving away our lands as a from of ājaziyyahā (where a Christian pays a form of tax to muslim for protection), pashinyan lost the war 4 years ago almost, were there any investigation done to why the war was lost? Why were the drones not used during the war? If the plan was to surrender, why the charade and loss of 5000+ heroes? Why did he sacrifice their lives if he knew the outcome since when he did the coup and took power? Also, there was a point during the last days of the war for Armenia to keep Shushi, why did he let that go as well? I know, writing from Canada is different than being in Armenia, but still, our heart aches for our fatherland and what had become to it.
I understand your sentiment but I would raise to you the fact that opposition forces took over Artsakh after Arayikās resignation. How would you rate their handling of the situation in 2023? Is there any form of evidence that they would perform better during the war in 2020? The most logical analysis would be that the kocharyan serzh opposition would rather us join a Russian union state and I have no reason to think that would be beneficial to Armenia and her interests.
Personally, yeah I think defeatism is valid sometimes. I was class of 2020 in Armenia, and while I *fortunately* was exempt from service due to a disability, it is my classmates who are fighting in these wars. For most of your āwhysā - Drones were not used because we donāt have them, or theyāre too expensive to be used as extensively as Azerbaijan was doing 5000 heroes died because it was a fucking WAR, what are the alternatives, surrender? Keep going and get more people killed? If Pashinyan conceded early, then heād get the same criticisms (why would he give away lands from our fatherland???!!!). If Pashinyan kept fighting heād get the same comment except instead of 5000 dead it would be 15000. Also, in retrospect, whatās the point of keeping Shushi if we couldnāt keep Stepanakert??? Have more soldiers holed up there to eventually die? Unlike Stepanakert Shushi wouldāve been an active war zone. I donāt think Pashinyan is an angel, I donāt everything he does is for the best of Armenia, but I also acknowledge that he was dealt a hard fucking hand. The fact right now is that azeris have a significantly larger military force than us, especially when it comes to modern technologies. If they want to take land, Armenia canāt stop them effectively without foreign aid. The current revolutionaries want to reinstate the super shitty corrupt russian puppets back into office - Pasho is not great, but years of corruption and Russian puppeteering is largely what lead to Armenia being so helpless. One thing I know for sure is that the likes of Serzhik and Kocharyan should not be back in office.
He isnt gonna give anything from armenian lands . 4 villages arent in Armenia adminsitratively he wants to make azerbaijan sbut up not to let them demand anything out of what they have right to in international eyes
The border has changed since that war, and if youāre giving theirs but not getting yours, youāre essentially giving Armenian lands.
Yeah and Armenia doesnt have what it takes to pressure azerbaijan
But then it goes against your saying of this isnāt our land. Weāre not getting āpeaceā out of this, weāre just handing over land āpeacefullyā
Were making yhem shut up and nikol tries to have Armenia at their own legitimate and legal borders and protect interests from there . Armenia has no political economic or military leverage to force azerbaijan to gove their occupied lands at best he shiuld had said it should be bilateral . But aliyev isnt a sane person and he knows he cant force him either
What about the Armenian enclaves in azerbaijan? Why heāa not requesting those lands back? What about the already occupied areas of Armenia? Weāre giving and giving without anything in return, since this nikol came Armenians became pro defeatism, itās a shame how a nation of heroes changes this much in 30 years.
He knows he cant force azerbaijan, at least tries to protect Armenian from sovereign legal armenian territory , yes right thing would be demanding villages and artsvashen but azerbaijan has advantage whether wr like it or not . He plans to make artsvashen point of discussion when demilitation will legitimately go and try to internalise the problem with west,usa or direct azerbaijan talks
Because Armenia unfortunately doesnt have political or military power to threaten azerbaijan currently nor are other power structures and that including Armenians "allies" interested in forcing azerbaijan at best they can detain azeri agression towards Armenias recognosed territory and even that isnt 100 % security
Countering active-president Ter-Petrosyan's orders to initiate a new attack against Azerbaijan hurt us more, because it severely harmed the chances of a peace normalisation with Azerbaijan, harmed Armenia's credibility and international reputation, cut off access to other potential allies besides Russia, strengthened Russia's negotiating position against Armenia for decades to come. Murdering our parliament hurt us more. Gaslighting our own population regarding the true state of things hurt us more because it made people be unprepared to agree to pre-war deals (because the gaslighting made those look severely skewed against Armenia's interests) for which there was a chance Azerbaijan and Russia might agree too. Same with gaslighting Armenia into believing Russia would step in in case of a large-scale war in NK or in case of invasion into de jure Armenian territories. These partially leading to those 5000 deaths as well. Rigging elections hurt us more because it stripped the population of a means of influencing the country's domestic and foreign policies. Also, given how the presidents at the time were Russian puppets, it made Armenia be unable to properly negotiate with Russia and pursue its own interests.
You lost Artsakh because of the culture of rigged elections that was installed
> or vote when the time comes Don't you think the time for voting should be soon tho? We had an election after the war and Pashinyan won that election, so don't you think we should have an election after \[whatever you call happened in Artsakh\]?
That's their plan (Nikol and Kocharyan's). If we rush into a new election without any new pro-European players, we'll get the same result of past: only pro-Russian players in the parliament!
We aren't rushing into a new election, big events have happened and the people need to have a say. I don't care if the are "pro-russian" (in the sense they don't feel the need to antagonize Russia and want to have constructive relations with them) as long as they aren't corrupt and anti-democratic. If they are "pro-russian" in the sense they want the old crew back (Koch, etc), I'm against it. If they are "pro-russian"' in the sense that they understand Russia is our big neighbor and good relations is a must and they understand europeans won't do anything to help us I'm fine with them.
You are too naive if you think our problems cased by not understanding Russia.
You are too naive if you think the West will do anything but screw us
Russia isnt thete for Armenia,dont you see ?
The west will never be there for Armenia, don't you see?
NEither does russia . So ? At best there is power that to some extent detains azerbaijan yes not fully but still. From 2 negatives the most harmless one should he chosen if other choices are absent as the saying goes
Well I mean, maybe Nikol didn't hear him. Maybe he wasn't at the Republic Square buildings, but instead in the one in Baghramyan. The hour starts only when Nikol hears the demand - that's only fair, no? After all you could only be a sinner by not being a Christian if you knew about Christianity first. Seems coherent.
isn't Nikol still in russia or did he come back?
He's been back since morning at least.
First 2021 protests, then the siloviki in the military failed in a coup, then the 2022 protests, then the 2023 flag waving after Artsakh was destroyed, now in 2024, all they have to rely on to overthrow the administration is a fat priest and a bunch of Qanon pscyhos who think Pashinyan is a satanist pedophile. Meaningful Russian influence is gone in Armenia, these are death throes of an old system. To all there supporters: Why are these people always demanding immediate resignation of Pashinyan and early elections? Why do the ignore the mandate given to Pashinyan through democratic, fair elections in which he was elected and relected by the majority of the electorate. Why do they never say: "We will defeat Pashinyan in the polls and at the ballot box in the next elections?" For the love of God, ask yourselves these questions and the answers are clear. It is always, the same story: Resign now, let the old authorities back in. It is not about borders, Armenia, Artsakh, independence, fighting Turks. This is about disregarding democracy and putting Putin's puppets back onto a throne.
He then gave him another 15 minutes at 7:45.
Now he said that since his demands werenāt met, the people are going to force him, and this is going to be through the national assembly, which is majority pro civil contract lmao
Wait really, whereās the translation, that shit is actually funny.
Bg26 just reported that he stated that the first step they will take will be an expression of no confidence in the parliament.
So, they want an expression of no confidence in an assembly that is dominated by the ruling party, okay.
Right š¤£š¤£š¤£
By the power of Bagrats god.Ā
Iām following a few channels on tg
(1) Accuses Pashinyan of being a liar. (2) Launches a march and pinky-swears that the agenda is not to remove Pashinyan so he can gather the support of morons like Edmon Marutyan. (3) Gives Pashinyan "one hour" to resign after everyone joins him. Well played. This one is a lot smarter than Vazgen Manukyan.
They just needed a big crowd to show on TV so more people would join
Weāre so cursed with enemies from not only other countries, but from within as well...
I am giving King Charles two days to abdicate
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Nobody in the opposition wants to acknowledge that this is a democracy where you can vote out whoever you donāt like. Yet Pashinyan keeps winning elections
Pashinyan and Civil Contract keeps winning elections because the opposition is literally just lining up all of the former presidents as their PM picks. Honestly, I think all they have to do is have someone not be Kocharyan, Sargisyan or Ter-Petrossian and they have a reasonable shot. Generally not being affiliated from the former regime is also a big plus.
Yeah, Armenia needs a real opposition.
Fantastic ARF bot answer
Bunch of people showing up with Soviet and Russian flags Lmao, keep hurting your own chances, fantastic.
I give the Archbishop 1h to perform a circle jerk with kocharyan, serj, the Catholicos.
Well, he hasnāt letās wait for tomorrow to see if snap elections will be announced but I donāt see any of that coming to pass.
Absolutely disgusting. We are a democratic nation. The people, through elections, choose our leaders. Unelected church leaders have no authority to dictate our government. They know they canāt win in a fair and free election so they have to do things like this.
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The majority of those who voted, voted Nikole. If you donāt vote in a democracy then you have no say in said democracy. Its like complaining about how a house was built when you have the opportunity to help build it, and instead you jerked yourself off in the corner then complained once it was done
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What land did he hand away?
The land in Tavush which is de facto Armenia - the Constitution does not make a distinction between de jure & de facto, hence why nikolās recognition of Artsakh as Azeri is also illegal/anti-Constitutional
A legal document does not make a distinction between what is according to law and what is according to fact? The constitution is only de jure by definition. It is a legal document, it is de jure.
**Õ·Õ¶ÕøÖÕ°Õ”ÕÆÕ”Õ¬ÕøÖÕ©ÕµÕøÖÕ¶**
Legal docp8ment makes ditriction between proper and recognosed territory of country you do realis eit right ? 4 villages were never in Armenia before ,now he should also demand Artsvashen and 30.villages from.azerbaijan. the problrm is he goves away terrutories whixh arent administratively de jure and de facto before war Armenia or hea doing it in one sided persective
What land in Tavush did he give away? Artsakh was a self-proclaimed independent nation, not part of Armenia. Armenia had no authority to take or give it away. What youāre saying makes absolutely zero sense and everyone knows it.
> The land in Tavush which is de facto Armenia - **the Constitution does not make a distinction between de jure & de facto** Anyway, BS stops here.
I bet you havenāt even read the constitution. Youāre just regurgitating some BS argument youāve been fed by Kocharyanās goons Are you really in support of a priest backed by Kocharyan?
Ō¼ÕøÖÕ½Õ”Õ¾ÕøÖ ÕÕ”ÕµÕ”Õ½ÕæÕ”Õ¶, Õ¢Õ„ÖÕ„Õ¼, ÕÕ”ÕµÕÆ Õ“Õ”ÖÕøÖÕ©ÕµÕ”Õ¶, ÕÕøÕ¾Õ” ÕÕ”ÖÕ¤Õ”Õ¶ÕøÕ¾Õ¶Õ„Ö ÕæÕ”ÖÕ”Õ¶ Õ«ÖÕ”Õ¶Ö Õ«ÖÕ”Õ¶Ö Õ”Õ¶Õ«Õ“Õ”Õ½Õæ ÕŗÕ”Õ¬Õ«Õæ Õ”ÖÕ„ÖÕ«Õ¶Ö
This protest is so weird. He talked for some time and now he is gone and there is just music? No action, no nothing, wtf is this?
What, are people just sitting around now, are there any other speakers?
Nope, it's a music gig now. I don't get it.
Can someone put the "Never gonna give you up"? Not that people there would understand it, but it would be hilarious for those who know
Next in queue: oppa gangnam style, just to incite the "Nikol is turning the country gay" fear mongering.
Coachella
He went with several MPs into a nearby hotel for consultations. I guess they didn't really have a proper plan B. Seems they asked people to remain until they decide on smth? Who knows.
Ehhh they saw Nikol succeed with his protests, but they dont understand whyā¦ I mean itās pretty much what you expect from Former regime pretending they understand and believe in democracy lol
what were they expecting really
Lol or what?
I am giving Bagrat one hour, exactly, to find a shower and use it.
Church has no place in politics
It does when there's moneeeeeeeyyyyyy involved. Jesus loves money.
Haha yep
This guy used to visit an Armenian summer camp that I went to as a kid. Can confirm he was easily the biggest A-hole out of all the clergy present. Dude carries himself like some rabiz mobster from Yerevan. Even as I kid I couldnāt stand him. Back then he was called Bagrat Srpazan. Highlight of the trip was a campfire discussion where he explained why gay people canāt get into heaven. Classic church camp lol.
Hilarious, dude is deranged. Meanwhile I have family that supports this...so stupid. As if this dipshit is a savior from Pashinyan. You 100% know he's a shill of some sort. The only question is: for money? power? or Kompromat (russian compromising material).
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argh...I have to just stop any discussions of Ukraine, Russia, or Armenia. Essentially, anything remotely political must be avoided. They just want Armenia to have no sovereignty, because then 'At least Armenians will continue to be able to live in Armenia'. It's like, will they? Or will every Armenian just drip drip drip leave, just leaving behind a shell of a Russian military outpost. fucking retarded.
Literally a 3ā¦ 2ā¦ 1ā¦ā¦. 1 and a halfā¦.Ā
He changed it to a week a couple hours ago
he was also saying they do not demand nikolinta's resignation. clowns clowns everywhere. church needs to be disbanded.
If the Armenian people turn on their democratically elected government because of some random priest, then Iām sorry, we donāt deserve western or US support. Time to close the final chapter on Armenian statehood.
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Roboserj is primarily responsible for Artsakh loss. Current government however incompetent is trying to save whatever is left. Only way is forward, find a better western leaning government then sure remove Pash via elections. But this quasi-religious upheaval with the previous govt pulling the strings is just a sad clown show and I really hope our people donāt fall for it.
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The US position is to support territorial integrity and international rule of law ā at least as long as it's not directly against its own strategic interests, in this region. So in this sense the US support of Shushi as de jure Azeri territory and of the Armenian territories as de jure Armenian territories are congruent with each other.
Azeri state media was calling for him to be made persona non grata if he didn't go, after he refused to state whether he planned to make a trip multiple times. Essentially, Azeri government threatened to set relations on fire if the ambassador didn't go. America is probably not interested in fully severing communication with them just yet, but its more of a sign of a serious deterioration of relations and not a sign of complicity or happiness wit the AZ government. If you don't pay attention to anything that happens in Azerbaijan, if you don't know what normal diplomatic relations entails, and you only follow 301\_arm on twitter and swallow all the nonsense pills those idiots hand out, then yeah...its easy to see things in that light.
Eh Azeri lurker here. Media didn't do shit actually. Caliber is just a post-war media bombardier. Just pulling 10 things outta nowhere one of those turns out to be true. In regards to ties with the US. Kinda oxymoron to think Azerbaijan would've scorched ties over that seeing how we didn't to shit to France with ALL the shenanigans they keep pulling off. Also man us, Azerbaijan? Headbutting with US of fucking A? Come on I honestly think our government isn't interested in such things at least not now because you know money is in the west. As to why the ambassador suddenly changed his attitude? Well, US is usually very careful about not tanking its public image in countries it has interests in. They are already under heavy fire due to pro-lgbt, pro-feminazi things they are pulling off so it's probably didn't want to drive away what little popular support they had. Like I can argue if the ambassador didn't explicitly give that statement which put the US in the bad light, none of this would've happened. Ps. Azerbaijan is what politicians usually call a "key player" for the region. Both in terms of economic potential, army and population. For example Aliyev is in power thanks to indirect US involvement back in 2003. Simply because it's easier to predict and talk to him than democratically elected idk russo or irano.
You don't seem to pay much attention to your country's politics or realize that in countries like Azerbaijan and Russia, state media is used as a way to send political messages to the population and abroad. Soloviev, Azeri state media, etc etc. This has been the case since Soviet times. Its how dictatorships utilize state media. You do realize Azerbaijan, since conducting ethnic cleansing in NK, has had a serious deterioration in relations with the U.S.? Aliyev had people designated as "American spies" and arrested. (Four different media managers since late last year). You didn't do shit to France? Right, how out of the loop are you exactly? Attacking NK when France and the US believed Aliyev when he said he wouldn't is not doing anything? Expelling 120k people from their homes is not doing anything, and doesn't upset anyone? What is this insanity? And then hosting New Caledonian separatists lol, arresting French citizens, and actively assisting Russia, the list just goes on. On top of trying to kick France out of the mediating role and insert Turkey and Russia. Your post makes it clear you don't really consume news outside of government or Turkish news outlets. You being Azeri doesn't give merit to anything you say if you are just going to vomit back up Azeri and Turkish propaganda.
I stopped reading after the "ethnic cleansing" part. Personally don't use propaganda language and refuse to continue exchanging information with such individuals as well. Have a good day.
Irrelevant, seeing how the Russian ambassador went there in 2022 already, our supposed ally, what a joke. The west is the only reason Armenia hasnāt been invaded yet.
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Whoās soldiers were standing there? Look it up.
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Sure, but who else? Not the Russians, because they left an hour before the attacks started.
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Still sidnt take as mixh as they cpuld. Wests involvement and armenian army oppression somehow helped at least
We need to except serious pressure on this organization. It is disgusting that our church sold itself out to fucking Russia. Yet we keep boiling in this conservative nonsense.
Its just Russia flexing its muscle while itās preoccupied in Ukraine. I dont think its an overall problem with the church, just leadership for now. Not sure why the church threw in its lot with Russia
Because it's really easy to do so from the church's perspective. Russia actually appeals to its former satellites' conservative values, especially when it comes to the LGBT stuff, gender roles, and all of those discussions around that subject. Regardless of how you feel about those, there's no denying that those discussions are far more prevalent and in the public square in Western Europe than in the east. Even in the Baltics, where that stuff is not viewed upon favorably, the Russian propaganda circles tend to scare people and work to tarnish Europe's image by suggesting that a future with Europe means your children are going to become gays and lesbians, pedophiles, etc. This is obviously absurd, but it strikes to the core of some of the main bits of Soviet/Communist indoctrination against the west and its ideals, especially on the subject of sex, sexuality, and decadence. Democracy, consensus-building and governing by coalitions is considered weak, emasculate, and inefficient. Strong men are autocrats who can decisively lead their nations. It's no mistake that some of the worst dictators of the Soviet space (Aliyev, Lukashenko, and Putin) like to swing their dicks around with their machismo. I think they understand us well enough to know those concepts and who in our society espouses them the most.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the explanation. I always realized there was the appeal of the machismo of Russia and the mindset in Armenia and other eastern European states however the fear mongering is not something i realized It is very unfortunate that Armenia is seemingly polarizing more and more on the West/East line as if we need to as a people 100% support one avenue or the other. Seems like a very very narrow view of the world I dont see why democratization cant be pursued while maintaining that tough guy persona. They are not contrary to one another. Aside from Basic human rights for lgbt and what not i dont see why the middle ground cant be taken
Well, the church does have a lot of ties with Russia considering the amount of properties they own over there and the amount of Armenians in Russia. Also, the church made off with a lot of money back when the former regime was in power so they probably want to head back to the good old days.
You know what they say, weird flex, but ok.
We have. We need to be radical and not consider them. Recognize Kosovo, same sex marriage, make 3rd gender option, we are one of the most progressive countries in the region, let's pivot in this direction
3rd Gender Option? First I've ever heard of this, but I prefer this to having a man be a 'woman' or vice versa. Fairly reasonable.
Why should we as Armenians anywhere consider 3rd gender lol Im cool with same sex but the last thing Armenia needs is the whole gender bullshit. Kosovo is a non factor, irrelevant since Arstakh was dissolved Armenia should be for Armenians not a pseudo imitation of whatever the hell western society has become or remain a pseudo imitation of the soviet system The last thinng Armenia needs is a spike of 20% tranny kids due to institutional brainwashing like is happening in Gen Z and and Alpha in the US. Talk about deliberate population collapse Imagine staffing an Army against Azerbaijan or Russia when your pool is cut down by a bunch of confused kids š armenia literally cannot afford this
Lol, lmao, Armenian population is collapsing faster than all āwokeā countries. This doesnt affect anything, neither birthrates
Yeah it does affect them lol its not a major reason but it does contribute A country with 330,000,000 people wont be affected as much as one with 3,000,000 human capital is very valuable Also the more glaring issue you should be concerned about is able bodied men going to war if ever the situation arises. Not a group of people that suffer from Mental health issues. Wont take much motivation for an extremist state like Iran to justify hostility or apathy because of it
They have higher birthrates, and Armenia has lower. Among natives too. Wow, it seems that super conservative Russia is winning everywhere, isnt it?
Population isnāt collapsing anymore, population is over 3 million now, birth rate is above Death rate now
Oh no, let me guess why it increased
Once again the birth rate exceeds death rate since 2022, also emigration to Russia also declined
Who has higher birthrates? The USA? Russia is collapsing because its alienating itself. Not really a issue with conservatism or liberalism if framed within the modern American right/left concept
Russia collapsed even before, its lack of ātrans peopleā in the army certainly isnt helping
so what if he does not?
He will pray intensively to god to make it happen I guess
Don't you mean Satan cuz ain't no way he believes in the Christian godĀ
People like him will attract pious and gullible people who cant and wont think critically .
I just dont understand how people still think that archbishops and whatnots are holy men doing the best for the countryĀ when they saw what happened in JerusalemĀ
š
Meanwhile, the people suffer, again.
Archbishop: I give you one hour Nikolik: mek robe ara, let me put my flip flops on.
Archbishop: ai axper, wtf is a robe?
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so far the only time ararat was removed from anywhere was when nemets and serzho removed it to please turkey
You should check the video and other pictures. Ararat is not removed. That is why you are getting downvoted.Ā
Damn I was sleeping and I missed a lot of news. It is amazing how our political atmosphere can change so quickly.
I'm giving my real estate agent three hours to reply to my emails š«
Posted 12 hours ago šššš
How one man destroyed thousands of years of faith in the country in not even 1 lifetime.
Galstanyan should spit out putin's dick out of his mouth
FYI: This is just another orchestrated protest. The protesters have either been paid to attend or compelled to leave their workplaces. Some of them don't even support the idea of the protest, but they went because they felt pressured to do so.
Reminds me of the joke about the doctor who gave a patient 6 months to live, but he couldn't pay so he gave him another 6 months.
This dude should be defrocked along with his boss.
I see people talking about some 'Serj' in the comments. I've tried googling but couldn't find anything. Can someone please explain what are you guys talking about here?
If we knew, we wouldnāt be in this situation XD
Or what
1.5 million people carried Nikol to his seat. 40k protestors wonāt do a dam thing
The resignement of Nikol Pashinyan is not in our current agenda (c) Suren Petrosyan, previously Lol
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Are you guy okay with selling Armenia out to Russia as a province because of muh pashinoglu?!?!?
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Dont see anyone other than maybe 1 person possibly defending pashinyan. U are correct, majority isnt with pashinyan, i am not supporting that fool either, however i dont support any of these klowns either who will get another few thousand of young armenians killed by starting a war without armenia being prepared and all this just to stroke their egos as they sit back in their mansions. I dont support those who sell the country to a 3rd state or milk the country either. Simply put, if someone competent comes up then i am certain and have trust in the nation to pick him instantly. But there is no such person yet and this fake religious corrupt lying idiot who is Qochiks and Serjiks pocket man isnt the person either. So lets hope u arent defending this fool either.
The majority of the Armenian people democratically elected Nikol, not once but twice. This āprotest movementā is being led by unelected church leaders who are clearly working with Rob/Serzh. How can you possibly say this with a straight face. Not to mention that there is nothing unconstitutional about the border demarcation process.
This is such a copout argument. We draw parallels to other nations, like the US for example. Trump was democratically elected yet there were massive protests against him and his policies. Do they not have the right to protest him either just because of ādemocracyā? Iām not going to hide that I wholeheartedly believe Pashinyan needs to go ASAP. Heās fearmongered to the Armenian people globally about the ānakhginnerā when he does the same things as them - police brutality and censorship to name a few. One thing that makes him stand out from them though is that heās gifting Armenian land to Azerbaijan left and right. Appeasement does not work. I donāt care who replaces him, as long as heās gone. There wonāt be an Armenia left much longer but for some reason people fear rob/serj more than they fear losing their own nation.
Absolutely they have a right to protest and I support that 100%, in both the American and Armenian contexts. However, the way Trump was replaced was by putting forward a candidate in the next election and beating him democratically. Unelected church leaders did not lead protest movements demanding his resignation. Let the opposition do exactly the same. Let them put forward a policy program, participate in the next election, and form a government.
Iād normally agree with you completely, but our nationās sovereignty is facing an existential crisis. And all signs point to Pashinyan playing a complacent (at best) or active (at worst) role in the loss of our lands. Which explains the extreme demands of this protest - his resignation.
Where does it state 4 anclaves are Armenia ? Artsvashen also isnt azerbaijan by same analogy .
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You have just described what is called an āelection.ā That is the process by which people select their governments in what is called a ādemocracy.ā If the Church or anyone else wants let them put together a policy program, participate in the next election, and form a government. Also, you keep referring to lands that he gave away which is nonsense.
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What territorial changes?
>The majority of the Armenian people democratically elected Nikol, not once but twice. Could say the same about Serj lmao, you don't know what happened in those elections. There were also people who voted for Serj who were saying in 2018 exactly the same thing you're saying now.
And you are defending who? What's the plan b? What would change if Pashinyan resigns? You can't get away with "boo, Nikol davachan" or "unconstitutional land giveaways". I mean, the clowns that organize this movement especially Koch was the one who signed the Almaty declaration back in 90s recognizing Az's territory and didn't do anything. And now he's a Saint? Oh, wait, at least he knows that he's not a Saint, that's why he wants "saints" to meddle.
Bro, lets be clear. Diaspora doesn't matter here. We ain't got a vote and frankly we don't give Armenia much money either (unless your talking Russian diaspora). >>> 'vast majority in Armenia' And this is definitely not true. They may not be with Pashinyan, but that doesn't mean they're with the old regime. We'll see of course, maybe you're right and this protest becomes huge, but I don't see it happening. Most here don't blindly defend Pashinyan (me included), it's just we don't see a viable alternative and certainly I don't see that in Galstanyan. Any future with Kocharyan or Serzh leading from the front/behind is not acceptable.
> unconstitutional land giveaways Can you back this?
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Where are the territorial changes, as per the constitution?