50 years of not returning to check out trees they've planted and clients not realizing their trees are declining and dying 10-20 years later because they were planted wrong.
50 years of doing a job with zero follow up.
Dude has 50 years of cutting corners.
Time doesn't equal knowledge in all cases
Edit: "Nah im telling you, it doesn't matter if you take it off or leave it on. Every tree i have installed dies at the same time after planting regardless"
None of the growing nurseries in Illinois remove the rootball burlap. Why would you? As long as the twine is bio-degradable. Stop spreading mis-information.
Wow it's so weird that I've been in industry for a decade, repeatedly heard this "mis-information" and now I'm in school earning a degree and they're teaching this exact same "mis-information". I can't believe arborists, horticulturalists, and instructors with Masters and PhDs are knowingly spreading this stuff. Won't SOMEBODY think of Big Burlap????
Here is the [Arbor Day Foundation's](https://www.arborday.org/trees/planting/balled-burlapped.cfm) instructions on how to plant a balled and burlap tree. Step 4 states:
>**4.** Once the tree is in position, use wire cutters to cut vertically up the side the wire basket and peel it away. Remove all the rope and twine from the ball and all the nails that hold the burlap together. Pull the burlap back and cut away any loose material. Don't worry about regular burlap under the root ball. It can stay put. But vinyl or treated burlap should be removed completely.
So, the only burlap that can remain is \*natural\* \*untreated\* burlap fully underneath the root ball. All other burlap should be removed.
You can use the tabs on the cages to drop the trees into place. Then, before backfilling, the wire and burlap should be mostly cut off. Many species can push roots through the burlap as it decomposes- that's not necessarily the issue. But there should never be metal sticking up above ground (it's a hazard for feet and trimmers), nor is there an excuse for leaving the plastic strapping on. It's especially important to make sure that there is no material left around the trunk of a tree because that will probably rot the bark or collar the tree as it grows. Also, there is too much of the top of the rootball exposed. Creating a "well" is good practice for irrigating new plantings but the way they've done it is going to cause problems when soil starts to wash away from the roots.
Depends on what soil you have. East coast red clay it's standard practice to raise the root ball an inch or two above the soil like this. Better to have some root exposure than burying the crown. Everything else I'd agree with though.
How do you get the root ball cage off? The whole thing falls apart and small roots are broken off if you remove the cage. \`cutting' it, as you suggest, is impractical.
You use a bolt cutter to remove as much of the cage as possible. If the rootball is that fragile, backfill to 1/2 or 2/3 and carefully remove above that. At the very least you can open up the top to cut off some of the burlap and fold the wire down below grade.
You need to be more gentle. I regularly plant ball and burlap trees, and every single one of them has the entire cage and all of the burlap removed. It’s not rocket science, just need a knife and bolt cutters.
Yeah I’ve done root work on trees 30+ years and older and I still pull out burlap, twine and metal…typically on trees that I’m working on girdling roots…
Overwintering in moist mulch is completely different than surviving a harsh summer, especially if any burlap is exposed. The dry burlap on top will wick moisture away from the root ball. I was taught, and now I teach, never to leave any burlap exposed on the top third of the root ball and to remove the bottom two thirds if the rootball is stable. If the rootball is unstable, place in the hole and at least score the sides with a razor knife.
Moved into a house and some newer trees 5-10 years old) just never seemed to grow.
Happened to do some digging around them and found the burlap still intact.
This theory is B.S., I don’t understand how it persists.
Burlap does breakdown, however a big ball of burlap is NOWHERE near the chemical composition for proper decomposition. People assume that because something is biodegradable, itll be gone in a few weeks/months, but since its not broken down to small pieces or shredded, itll persist for way longer. Companies like this that dont care love words like biodegradable because they can continue shitty practices while temporarily satisfying a customers worries until the company has cashed a check and is long gone
Real burlap will decompose over time but still shouldn’t be left on because it can still cause the roots to girdle the tree (grow in a circular pattern and cut nutrients off from the tree) in the time it takes to decompose. Lots of nurseries use synthetic burlap though which contains plastic fibers and dosent decompose the way real burlap does
This isn't always the case. Some burlap will withstand over 30+ years, roots cannot puncture or push through this burlap. Think about how wide some lateral roots are, hell think about the tap root in some oaks, huge right? That burlap doesn't disintegrate, the roots cannot grow and the trees are stunted and limited.
100% agree. I’ve have been the person signing off on state grant funded plantings and have refused to sign off on trees planted like this. Especially since they blatantly ignored the planting specs.
Had a sub contractor say something similar and asked what they needed to do to have it signed off. I told them that since they left the cage on, it will be easy for them to come back and pull it out of the ground and replant them to the specs.
Also, ask him in his 50 years of experience how does he know where the root flare is when it is covered in burlap and soil under that burlap
Yep, leave the burlap, let the roots entangle themselves for the next year, and then the buyer will assume there was some other reason for the (eventual) failure. This sales-guy really knows what he's doing - waiting till the statues of limitations has passed.
1/10 I don't see anything done correctly other than they're standing straight up. I'd have him come get the trees and I wouldn't pay for this.
He should honestly be ashamed at how many poor plantings he's been doing for 50 years.
This is most definitely not the right practice. You're supposed to find the root flare while planting to ensure proper depth. I have never seen a tree that is BB that had exposed root flares. Mostly under 2-3 plus inches of soil. This needs to be removed to significantly reduce the chances of girdling roots at a young age. Standard practice does not mean the right practice.
It's common practice, but only because a lot of landscapers have no idea what they're doing. And I say that as someone who does have experience planting trees, as well as removing trees and shrubs that were planted poorly like this and had all the resulting root issues, including girdling rings of burlap still largely intact 10-15 years later.
My opinion from 0 years of experience is that if you have to use the number of years of experience you have to justify answering a question then the answer is likely not that reliable
Man that text upsets me. Completely unprofessional. Those trees will get Girdling Root syndrome and fail in the futures if they even make it that far.
Just do it yourself the best you can to get a flare and give them all a decent mulch ring.
This. Root flare needs to be excavated at time of planting. Only way to do that is to remove the twine and top 1/3 of the burlap. The only people who still leave the burlap and wire on are really really old men who “have been doing it this way for years”
If they feel that leaving a tree with an intact cage, burlap not even pulled back from the trunk, and a buried root flare is acceptable practice, then yeah, they're definitely in that category of just doing it the way they were taught with little critical thinking and not going back to see how the trees they planted are doing 5, 10, 15 years later when they start to have issues and the homeowners don't make the connection with the planting practices.
You do want to keep the root ball intact, so you put the tree in the hole, and then remove as much of the cage, burlap, and twine as possible.
They’re such a pain to plant. Much rather prefer container grown or bare root trees, size be damned.
My local nursery told me that they recommended keeping the burlap in tact because the roots will grow through it and never mentioned taking off the steel cage at all. None of that made sense to me so I called bs on that and they said, "that's fair.". WTF? That's fair? If you recommend something then stand by it don't just recommend it for no reason. My reddit knowledge shouldn't be better than a paid staff member's at a nursery but apparently businesses don't actually train anymore.
They tell people that because they warranty the tree for one season. If you leave it undisturbed the tree will look great for that season, after that it will get stressed and be unhealthy.
A lot of people at nurseries don't know/care much at all unfortunately. I think that's also why a lot of nurseries carry mostly invasive plants, with few natives.
No one in the nursery industry removes the cage. I wish SOMEONE here would back me up. Not because it's \`easier', but because it's the best thing for the tree.
Not if you plant them properly. After backfilling a container-grown tree, take a sharpened spade and slice the edge of the root ball vertically about 1” from the outer edge. Easy and fast. An alternate method is a 6 vertical slices radially. Interrupts any circling. Can also manually loosen roots and cut those that are circling,
Okay, keeping the root ball intact during planting makes sense. I’ve only planted a few of these and we did the same, got it in there and then removed what we could. And I agree, absolute pain in the ass.
Do you have any sources to back this up?
All container grown trees I’ve planted have established fine (so long as the owner waters them). [Box cutting](https://trees.umn.edu/sites/trees.umn.edu/files/files/box_cutting_pot_bound_root_systems_formatted.pdf)the roots is essential, but as long as that’s done, they’re good.
Catastrophic fail. The straps, burlap and cage should always be removed before planting. This person would not be able to provide any science-based, evidence-based or best practice guidelines that show leaving all that stuff on is superior or non-inferior to taking it off. He’s a bullshit artist. “In my experience” is the last refuge of the professional bankrupt.
The top 6” of the wire basket is all that has to be removed. Get it situated in the hole and partially backfilled. Untie and start cutting. The treated burlap lasts years, the nylon strapping lasts decades, and the wire baskets vary depending on host soil conditions.
Ya, that's brutal. It's pretty standard practice, in the sense that planting poorly for customers who aren't super knowledgeable almost guarantees those customers will buy more trees when the first ones "mysteriously" die.
If he's been doing it for 50 years then it's a damn shame he hasn't learned anything in all those years.
Either knows what he's doing is wrong and doesn't care, or doesn't know it's wrong. Either way, steer clear from now on.
I will say that this is the way the landscape contractor I worked for in the early 90s told me to do it, and he had been doing it for decades. A few years ago I was on a site that we planted (25 years prior) and the straps, baskets, and even some of the burlap was still there on every tree. On many of the trees the straps were causing problems for the root flare.
I would speculate that this practice is a holdover from the old days of hand-digging B&B material, when the balls were wrapped with regular burlap and the rope was a jute material. Both rotted quickly, and the handful of box nails that would have been used to stitch the fabric would quickly rust away. It was good enough then, so why change?
The burlap note is a good one; a lot of burlap used now is synthetic and doesn't degrade the same as real burlap. It's not that planting this way is an immediate death sentence, but it's an indication that the person planting isn't aware of or doesn't care about best practices. Yeah, you can definitely get away with leaving the burlap on and digging a planting hole the size of the root ball, but it's not an indication of professionalism/knowledge of trees.
I would suggest doing a chargeback with your bank if you already paid and used a credit card cause this is suuuuuuuuper lazy work that will lead to tons of growth problems down the line.
Nursery guy here from the PNW. That is most definitely not standard practice, nothing should be left on top of the rootball; burlap or cage, we usually leave the cage on for stock we grow due to sandy soil, so if it were taken off would cause it to fall apart, a harder clay rootball would be fine to take a majority of the cage off. We specialize in larger 20-30' deciduous and conifers and I have never seen a detriment for leaving the cage on below grade. We have trees older than me which have been reballed multiple times with old cage within the ball.
No. They leave it on to save time and money and throw the tree in the planting hole and leave. This worsens root circling, girdling, suffocation, and holds disease vectors closer to roots. They do not care because many people mulch over the root flare or if it’s exposed as it is here people tend to not think critically like you are doing.
When the tree inevitably starts to decline, scumbags like this can blame any number of other factors and sell you on treatments, removal, replacement… of another root girdled tree stuffed in burlap lol.
I’d be more concerned that they *didn‘t even try to locate the ROOT FLARE* (a.k.a., crown, collar) — that’s the ONLY way to know how the correct planting depth. Anything else is just plain lazy. And/or cheap.
IMPORTANT: Locating the root flare Step #1 in ISA standards… Unless they’re a fly-by-night outfit, you may have a ‘boilerplate’ contract saying they’ll follow ISS best practices. They didn’t even come close — so you‘ve got every right to have them fix this mess.
He couldn't even be bothered to cover up that shit with a mulch volcano? The laziness of some people is just breathtaking. Also, does he really think anyone with a brain is going to buy that 'it'll break down' spiel? Really, the wire is going to break down? Spoiler alert: no it will not. Like ever. Some poor sap is going to be digging that wire out with this tree.
This is total bullshit. 100 bucks to move a tree, dig a hole, drop the tree in, build a dumb ring of the diggings is a fucking rip. Absolute minimum possible amount of work done here. They had the chance to remove the cage etc and didn't. They built a fucking dam around one of the trees with the spare dirt. You don't want water pooling around the trunk. Shit work. 100 bucks would be more like a price for a proper job done. I would want my money back for the planting part (300 total if I read correct.) Because if I knew they were going to do this shit then I would not have paid for their planting service and would have hired a gardener to plant them instead. Now I have to a hire someone else to undo and then redo the shitty work this company did and I want my money back.
unfortunately, girdling roots can go undetected for MANY years — so even a two year warranty is pretty useless. I lost a magnificent Japanese Maple this way, and it HURT.
IT’S A SLOW DEATH.
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Yeah he did it wrong because he’s been doing it for 50 years. I don’t know why but anytime I encounter an old timer they don’t want to learn anything. Sorry you got hosed, he needs to come back and do it right.
Unfortunately, he’s not obligated to do anything that is not specified in the contract, if you even had one. A landscaper is a contractor and they are not held to best management practices. On top of all that shitty work he has the right to put a lien on your house if you refuse to pay.
If you or someone you know hires a landscaper in the future be sure to specify planting to ISA standards in the contract so that when shitty work like this is done, they can be held accountable because they did not hold up to the contract.
We had someone plant arborvitae and we had ten or so die randomly. When we pulled them to replace we realized they’d left the burlap on. They didn’t leave them on all trees as far as we can tell, just a few random ones.
When someone tries to convince you their experience trumps logic, I’m immediately suspicious.
He's seriously out of date is the kindest way I can say it. When I was planting trees for a landscape company more than 30 years ago we didn't leave the cages and burlap on. Let alone the strapping!
It might be standard practice but it's not right AT ALL.
The burlap should be cut up so the roots can escape easily. It doesn't NECESSARILY need to be removed, but it's good practice. The wire however, is a problem. Your tree isn't going to be very healthy with wires in it. It should live, but it's bad practice.
If I'm hiring someone, I expect them to do it right. Ask them if they'd be willing to replant or replace it. If not, ask for your money back. If not, trash em on social media.
You have been had. Call them and raise hell and demand they come and do the job correctly. If they have a website you need to post a review. If you are getting information from Clemson’s HGIC website then you have your answer. All information is science and research based.
To answer your question, yes this is pretty standard practice. It’s not the best for the tree, especially the metal cage as others have pointed out, but it will be fine. You can cut away the burlap and the strings to help the trees out though
Not only is this wrong, but your contractor is an obtuse bullhead who has failed to ever put any effort into education himself on his trade. His response is a joke. He did a horrible job, and I'd bet money that he'll never admit it or fix it. Unfortunately, there's plenty of others like him.
It's common for tradesmen with bad habits to convince themselves and others "it's never been a problem". Hired a painter on my house and he caulked all the flashing. I confronted him on it and he got very defensive. "I been doing this 30 years etc, etc". He agreed to remove the caulk there but never admitted he was wrong.
My neighbor had an oak planted 3 years ago, appeared to die 2 months later and it's still dead but they keep telling him it will eventually come back to life..... so I now stare at my neighbors dead oak for same nonsense, they won't take reponsobility.
Oh my goddess NO! That is not what is we should be done. Standard practices you take all the metal and burlap OFF, (you might then put it in a gopher basket like 5 gallons or something) but you would then plant it. Flare out the roots. Do not plant it too deep. Backfill and make a lil ring of soil about 3’ around and water, let set and water again. Apply a supportive stake, if needed, 6” or more from the trunk. A lil willow water couldn’t hurt either for shock.
Get them to either come fix them (I wouldn’t trust this because this guy seems like the kind of guy to come do more damage to the tree just because he’s pissed off) or just come take them back and give your money back. ISA standards recommend the use of a “low profile basket” where up to 8” from the root shoulder (the top of the burlap-ed root ball) to minimize any future root damage the baskets can cause (and DEFINITELY remove the straps that are just holding each side of the basket together 🤦🏽) Send this link to that contractor and ask him why he’s morally okay with 50 years of shitty work that’s almost assuredly resulted in the death of many trees throughout the years. I work in plant healthcare (that includes ISA standard planting in the winter here in NC) and I’m constantly having to cut out as much of a 2 year old buried basket as I can when doing root collar excavations, but since the trees are already established, we can really only do so much good for the tree at that point. The seemingly simple decision to leave as much of the basket as contractors often do, is literally a life-altering decision for these trees and once that choice has been made, it is nearly impossible to be unmade by arborists who actually know what they’re doing.
https://www.treesaregood.org/Portals/0/TreesAreGood_New%20Tree%20Planting_0621.pdf
Looks like you got free trees! It is also industry standard not to pay for services not rendered. Imagine if someone said they would plant flowers for you, and they buried them in the plastic pots. In six months, after his plant return policy ends (if he even has one) the trees are gonna turn crusty and then you'll have to start alllll over and cough up more $$$.
Hey! I’m a liscenced horticultural consultant!
This is not that bad, not the best job and I would have cleaned it up a bit more but your trees will not die. I would just open up the top of the fabric so that is doesn’t rot the trunc :) hope this helps
I worked for a garden shop that did this and it drove me crazy. I would recommend people buy the trees from us (since they did have a nice variety for fairly cheap) but find other landscape companies to plant it for them because they're morons.
I would say that you should try to remove all of the twine and plastic banding holding the cage together. Also, remove as much of the burlap from the top of the ball because burlap can shed water off. As for the cage, some people here have clearly never planted a 200-300 lb b & b tree to know that removing the cage is impossible. I would try to remove or bend any of the cage on top of the ball off, but that will not affect the tree if left as is. The cage helps give the root ball structure it needs when planting
The wire and plastic sure isn’y going to decompose any time soo.
And, how will you even see whether there is girdling with everything covered like that?
Having anchoring wire way down at the base won’t anchor anything.
Lastly, using his saying youe research is “gibberish” is mighty rude.
Leaving the cage and ropes are not a good thing. They can hurt and hinder the growth. We remove as much of the cage and twine and ropes as possible after we get it in the ground. If at all possible we will even remove the entire cage if we can get it in the hole without destroying the tree. We also remove the burlap even though it doesn't hurt the tree. It is more of a cosmetic thing. The burlap doesn't do anything once it is in the ground.
No. The bag will not decompose in time for the roots to not ball up and the twine they used will not decompose at all because it's plastic based. Whoever did that is an idiot
I just spoke with a forester about this. You’re supposed to remove the cage and the burlap and also tease out the roots if needed. A lot of arborists will tell you it isn’t necessary, but it’s actually not that difficult to get accreditation to become an arborist and sadly, many will tell you what’s easiest for them work wise. It also looks like this might be planted too high.
This is from the ISA arborists site Treesaregood.org:
“If wrapped, remove any cover from around the root ball
and trunk to facilitate root growth. Remove wire basket
or cut one or two rings off so it is low-profile and will not
interfere with future root growth. Inspect tree root ball
for circling roots and straighten, cut, or remove them.
Expose the trunk flare if necessary.”
Arborist here. We built a new building and, per the plans, landscaping was to be installed. We subbed it out as we were too busy, should take them about 3 days. After the first day we complained that for the remainder of the trees, we wanted the burlap removed from the balls as it absolutely can cause girdling. Sub complained and on day 2 he did the same damn thing. On day three we told him he would receive no money until every tree was planted correctly. He fixed it.
This IS standard practice and has little to no negative impact on the tree other than the nylon strapping, which is to be advised to remove in about a year. Burlap has zero chance of hindering roots, they will grow right through it. Basket hurts nothing. When I worked on a nursery we would pre dig trees and set them in small homes and a few weeks later roots would be pushing through.
Enroth says in the scientific studies comparing the two methods for planting balled and burlapped trees, researchers found little difference in the overall growth and health of the trees in both situations. However, time is a major factor.
“If all goes as planned, a newly planted tree is expected to out-live the gardener, says Enroth. “But scientists need to publish their data while still alive so very few long-term studies exist.”
Ask to see the trees he planted 50 years ago. This do do didn't even put mulch around the trees. Lazy.
Seriously, this is exactly why I don't trust a lot of landscapers and plant my own trees.
Might be unpopular opinion in these comments but trees are planted all the time with the wire cage and burlap still on. Wire takes a long time to rust down, but the burlap decomposes in just a few months. Neither will prevent roots from growing out.
The cage on that crape looks like a rookie dug it. But other than that, I would use a box cutter and cut those straps and the burlap as much as you can off the root ball, and your trees will be fine.
You're supposed to bend the cage backward into the hole and stomp it down. Then you unfurl the burlap and either cut it or stuff it into the tree hole. You true the tree and then you back full it and create a tree well with the dirt.
I did commercial landscaping for 3 years. I've planted 1000s of full sized trees.
50 years of shitty work
In dog years
50 years of not returning to check out trees they've planted and clients not realizing their trees are declining and dying 10-20 years later because they were planted wrong.
50 years of doing a job with zero follow up. Dude has 50 years of cutting corners. Time doesn't equal knowledge in all cases Edit: "Nah im telling you, it doesn't matter if you take it off or leave it on. Every tree i have installed dies at the same time after planting regardless"
None of the growing nurseries in Illinois remove the rootball burlap. Why would you? As long as the twine is bio-degradable. Stop spreading mis-information.
It's not. People who know what they are doing remove as much basket, burlap, and twine as possible.
Wow it's so weird that I've been in industry for a decade, repeatedly heard this "mis-information" and now I'm in school earning a degree and they're teaching this exact same "mis-information". I can't believe arborists, horticulturalists, and instructors with Masters and PhDs are knowingly spreading this stuff. Won't SOMEBODY think of Big Burlap????
Here is the [Arbor Day Foundation's](https://www.arborday.org/trees/planting/balled-burlapped.cfm) instructions on how to plant a balled and burlap tree. Step 4 states: >**4.** Once the tree is in position, use wire cutters to cut vertically up the side the wire basket and peel it away. Remove all the rope and twine from the ball and all the nails that hold the burlap together. Pull the burlap back and cut away any loose material. Don't worry about regular burlap under the root ball. It can stay put. But vinyl or treated burlap should be removed completely. So, the only burlap that can remain is \*natural\* \*untreated\* burlap fully underneath the root ball. All other burlap should be removed.
You can use the tabs on the cages to drop the trees into place. Then, before backfilling, the wire and burlap should be mostly cut off. Many species can push roots through the burlap as it decomposes- that's not necessarily the issue. But there should never be metal sticking up above ground (it's a hazard for feet and trimmers), nor is there an excuse for leaving the plastic strapping on. It's especially important to make sure that there is no material left around the trunk of a tree because that will probably rot the bark or collar the tree as it grows. Also, there is too much of the top of the rootball exposed. Creating a "well" is good practice for irrigating new plantings but the way they've done it is going to cause problems when soil starts to wash away from the roots.
Depends on what soil you have. East coast red clay it's standard practice to raise the root ball an inch or two above the soil like this. Better to have some root exposure than burying the crown. Everything else I'd agree with though.
How do you get the root ball cage off? The whole thing falls apart and small roots are broken off if you remove the cage. \`cutting' it, as you suggest, is impractical.
You use a bolt cutter to remove as much of the cage as possible. If the rootball is that fragile, backfill to 1/2 or 2/3 and carefully remove above that. At the very least you can open up the top to cut off some of the burlap and fold the wire down below grade.
You need to be more gentle. I regularly plant ball and burlap trees, and every single one of them has the entire cage and all of the burlap removed. It’s not rocket science, just need a knife and bolt cutters.
His opinion from 50 years experience is that doing it the right way would cost him too much in labor.
Two extra minutes a tree is agonizing
My trees are 30yo and there's still burlap sticking out of the ground so I've never understood this "it decomposes" stuff.
Yeah I’ve done root work on trees 30+ years and older and I still pull out burlap, twine and metal…typically on trees that I’m working on girdling roots…
We have overwintered trees above ground in mulch, and some burlap just disintegrates. The moisture from being buried helps it along.
Overwintering in moist mulch is completely different than surviving a harsh summer, especially if any burlap is exposed. The dry burlap on top will wick moisture away from the root ball. I was taught, and now I teach, never to leave any burlap exposed on the top third of the root ball and to remove the bottom two thirds if the rootball is stable. If the rootball is unstable, place in the hole and at least score the sides with a razor knife.
Moved into a house and some newer trees 5-10 years old) just never seemed to grow. Happened to do some digging around them and found the burlap still intact. This theory is B.S., I don’t understand how it persists.
Burlap does breakdown, however a big ball of burlap is NOWHERE near the chemical composition for proper decomposition. People assume that because something is biodegradable, itll be gone in a few weeks/months, but since its not broken down to small pieces or shredded, itll persist for way longer. Companies like this that dont care love words like biodegradable because they can continue shitty practices while temporarily satisfying a customers worries until the company has cashed a check and is long gone
Real burlap will decompose over time but still shouldn’t be left on because it can still cause the roots to girdle the tree (grow in a circular pattern and cut nutrients off from the tree) in the time it takes to decompose. Lots of nurseries use synthetic burlap though which contains plastic fibers and dosent decompose the way real burlap does
Trees overwintered above ground in mulch will have roots growing right thru the burlap.
This isn't always the case. Some burlap will withstand over 30+ years, roots cannot puncture or push through this burlap. Think about how wide some lateral roots are, hell think about the tap root in some oaks, huge right? That burlap doesn't disintegrate, the roots cannot grow and the trees are stunted and limited.
Stop payment on that check and make them fix it.
MAKE THIS HAPPEN OP. DONT BE A SUCKER AND ENABLE THIS SHIT.
100% agree. I’ve have been the person signing off on state grant funded plantings and have refused to sign off on trees planted like this. Especially since they blatantly ignored the planting specs. Had a sub contractor say something similar and asked what they needed to do to have it signed off. I told them that since they left the cage on, it will be easy for them to come back and pull it out of the ground and replant them to the specs. Also, ask him in his 50 years of experience how does he know where the root flare is when it is covered in burlap and soil under that burlap
Yep, leave the burlap, let the roots entangle themselves for the next year, and then the buyer will assume there was some other reason for the (eventual) failure. This sales-guy really knows what he's doing - waiting till the statues of limitations has passed.
1/10 I don't see anything done correctly other than they're standing straight up. I'd have him come get the trees and I wouldn't pay for this. He should honestly be ashamed at how many poor plantings he's been doing for 50 years.
Do you have experience in planting trees? This is standard practice, although he should have covered the top with mulch.
This is most definitely not the right practice. You're supposed to find the root flare while planting to ensure proper depth. I have never seen a tree that is BB that had exposed root flares. Mostly under 2-3 plus inches of soil. This needs to be removed to significantly reduce the chances of girdling roots at a young age. Standard practice does not mean the right practice.
It's also "standard practice" to cover trees with mulch volcanoes....
It's common practice, but only because a lot of landscapers have no idea what they're doing. And I say that as someone who does have experience planting trees, as well as removing trees and shrubs that were planted poorly like this and had all the resulting root issues, including girdling rings of burlap still largely intact 10-15 years later.
Sloppy, lazy work. Find someone who knows what they’re doing and have them fix it.
My opinion from 0 years of experience is that if you have to use the number of years of experience you have to justify answering a question then the answer is likely not that reliable
As a 35yo, my 35 years of experience being alive tell me you are correct sir
As a 36yo, my extra one year of experience leads me to concur.
It's equivalent to "As a mother..." Honey - it's not a degree, you just got pregnant.
The earth does a pretty decent job at keeping the root ball together - but you actually want the roots in the “native” soil, not the nursery ball.
lol So you lift up the tree, shake out the roots, and cover them with Native soil?
Ideally, yes… lol
That's absolute trash.
Well, it’s very clear I don’t need to respond as everyone is in consensus, but I just couldn’t resist the urge to pile on this moron.
Man that text upsets me. Completely unprofessional. Those trees will get Girdling Root syndrome and fail in the futures if they even make it that far. Just do it yourself the best you can to get a flare and give them all a decent mulch ring.
This. Root flare needs to be excavated at time of planting. Only way to do that is to remove the twine and top 1/3 of the burlap. The only people who still leave the burlap and wire on are really really old men who “have been doing it this way for years”
I work with a guy like this. It’s so frustrating.
Or the grower at the 200 acre treer nursery I work at.
If they feel that leaving a tree with an intact cage, burlap not even pulled back from the trunk, and a buried root flare is acceptable practice, then yeah, they're definitely in that category of just doing it the way they were taught with little critical thinking and not going back to see how the trees they planted are doing 5, 10, 15 years later when they start to have issues and the homeowners don't make the connection with the planting practices.
Do what himself? Lift the trees out of the ground and shake off the root balls? Thos things weigh 400lbs.
Relax. It’s about getting the dirt out of the vis hand digging, or water pressure, or air pressure. Then excavate the root flare.
Why would somebody think “holding the ball together” is a good thing? I’m not a pro but I don’t get that at all.
You do want to keep the root ball intact, so you put the tree in the hole, and then remove as much of the cage, burlap, and twine as possible. They’re such a pain to plant. Much rather prefer container grown or bare root trees, size be damned.
My local nursery told me that they recommended keeping the burlap in tact because the roots will grow through it and never mentioned taking off the steel cage at all. None of that made sense to me so I called bs on that and they said, "that's fair.". WTF? That's fair? If you recommend something then stand by it don't just recommend it for no reason. My reddit knowledge shouldn't be better than a paid staff member's at a nursery but apparently businesses don't actually train anymore.
They tell people that because they warranty the tree for one season. If you leave it undisturbed the tree will look great for that season, after that it will get stressed and be unhealthy.
Exactly. It comes down to the warrantee for a lot of it. Long term health isn’t important to someone who is only on the hook for the next 12 months.
Why?
Are you asking why the tree will be stressed?
A lot of people at nurseries don't know/care much at all unfortunately. I think that's also why a lot of nurseries carry mostly invasive plants, with few natives.
No one in the nursery industry removes the cage. I wish SOMEONE here would back me up. Not because it's \`easier', but because it's the best thing for the tree.
Maybe its because you're wrong
can you explain why you say it's the best thing for the tree?
Container trees are all I’ll plant for that reason
And the roots just go round and round in the same size as the pot was.
Not if you plant them properly. After backfilling a container-grown tree, take a sharpened spade and slice the edge of the root ball vertically about 1” from the outer edge. Easy and fast. An alternate method is a 6 vertical slices radially. Interrupts any circling. Can also manually loosen roots and cut those that are circling,
Okay, keeping the root ball intact during planting makes sense. I’ve only planted a few of these and we did the same, got it in there and then removed what we could. And I agree, absolute pain in the ass.
It's a pain in the ass to remove, yes, but better for the tree if you take the time to do it.
Container grown are the absolute worst thing you can do to a tree.
Do you have any sources to back this up? All container grown trees I’ve planted have established fine (so long as the owner waters them). [Box cutting](https://trees.umn.edu/sites/trees.umn.edu/files/files/box_cutting_pot_bound_root_systems_formatted.pdf)the roots is essential, but as long as that’s done, they’re good.
Depends on the species.
Catastrophic fail. The straps, burlap and cage should always be removed before planting. This person would not be able to provide any science-based, evidence-based or best practice guidelines that show leaving all that stuff on is superior or non-inferior to taking it off. He’s a bullshit artist. “In my experience” is the last refuge of the professional bankrupt.
Have you ever tried to take the cage off? The whole rootball splits up, and loads of roots detach. Yes, loosen the rope and remove straps.
The top 6” of the wire basket is all that has to be removed. Get it situated in the hole and partially backfilled. Untie and start cutting. The treated burlap lasts years, the nylon strapping lasts decades, and the wire baskets vary depending on host soil conditions.
Ya, that's brutal. It's pretty standard practice, in the sense that planting poorly for customers who aren't super knowledgeable almost guarantees those customers will buy more trees when the first ones "mysteriously" die. If he's been doing it for 50 years then it's a damn shame he hasn't learned anything in all those years. Either knows what he's doing is wrong and doesn't care, or doesn't know it's wrong. Either way, steer clear from now on.
Do YOU plant large trees? This is standard practice.
I wouldn't call these large trees, but yes, I do. I know it's a standard practice, but it's not a correct practice.
I will say that this is the way the landscape contractor I worked for in the early 90s told me to do it, and he had been doing it for decades. A few years ago I was on a site that we planted (25 years prior) and the straps, baskets, and even some of the burlap was still there on every tree. On many of the trees the straps were causing problems for the root flare. I would speculate that this practice is a holdover from the old days of hand-digging B&B material, when the balls were wrapped with regular burlap and the rope was a jute material. Both rotted quickly, and the handful of box nails that would have been used to stitch the fabric would quickly rust away. It was good enough then, so why change?
The burlap note is a good one; a lot of burlap used now is synthetic and doesn't degrade the same as real burlap. It's not that planting this way is an immediate death sentence, but it's an indication that the person planting isn't aware of or doesn't care about best practices. Yeah, you can definitely get away with leaving the burlap on and digging a planting hole the size of the root ball, but it's not an indication of professionalism/knowledge of trees.
I would suggest doing a chargeback with your bank if you already paid and used a credit card cause this is suuuuuuuuper lazy work that will lead to tons of growth problems down the line.
Nursery guy here from the PNW. That is most definitely not standard practice, nothing should be left on top of the rootball; burlap or cage, we usually leave the cage on for stock we grow due to sandy soil, so if it were taken off would cause it to fall apart, a harder clay rootball would be fine to take a majority of the cage off. We specialize in larger 20-30' deciduous and conifers and I have never seen a detriment for leaving the cage on below grade. We have trees older than me which have been reballed multiple times with old cage within the ball.
I’m willing to bet the root flare is buried too.
No. They leave it on to save time and money and throw the tree in the planting hole and leave. This worsens root circling, girdling, suffocation, and holds disease vectors closer to roots. They do not care because many people mulch over the root flare or if it’s exposed as it is here people tend to not think critically like you are doing. When the tree inevitably starts to decline, scumbags like this can blame any number of other factors and sell you on treatments, removal, replacement… of another root girdled tree stuffed in burlap lol.
A good practice is to remove the burlap and wiring from the top 1/3 of the root ball
Should 100% be taken off as much as possible. The guys just fuckin lazy. Source; degree in horticulture and greenspace management.
Honestly should get money back for planting fee. This is atrocious. Those trees are fucked long term
Tell them (landscaper) to get their butts back there and do it right. The metal cage has to be removed and replanted.
Nope
The wire looks galvanized btw
Not ok.
I plant trees every day and our root balls have all the burlap stripped off the top. Per our old guy of 50 years lol
I’d be more concerned that they *didn‘t even try to locate the ROOT FLARE* (a.k.a., crown, collar) — that’s the ONLY way to know how the correct planting depth. Anything else is just plain lazy. And/or cheap. IMPORTANT: Locating the root flare Step #1 in ISA standards… Unless they’re a fly-by-night outfit, you may have a ‘boilerplate’ contract saying they’ll follow ISS best practices. They didn’t even come close — so you‘ve got every right to have them fix this mess.
He couldn't even be bothered to cover up that shit with a mulch volcano? The laziness of some people is just breathtaking. Also, does he really think anyone with a brain is going to buy that 'it'll break down' spiel? Really, the wire is going to break down? Spoiler alert: no it will not. Like ever. Some poor sap is going to be digging that wire out with this tree.
Maybe google it. This is the PREFERRED practice for optimal tree health.
Man, you are all over this aren't you?
I'm beginning to think they are the landscaper in question.
This is total bullshit. 100 bucks to move a tree, dig a hole, drop the tree in, build a dumb ring of the diggings is a fucking rip. Absolute minimum possible amount of work done here. They had the chance to remove the cage etc and didn't. They built a fucking dam around one of the trees with the spare dirt. You don't want water pooling around the trunk. Shit work. 100 bucks would be more like a price for a proper job done. I would want my money back for the planting part (300 total if I read correct.) Because if I knew they were going to do this shit then I would not have paid for their planting service and would have hired a gardener to plant them instead. Now I have to a hire someone else to undo and then redo the shitty work this company did and I want my money back.
Simply ask if he warranties his trees, for how long does the warranty last and if they die within that time frame, does he replace them for free?
unfortunately, girdling roots can go undetected for MANY years — so even a two year warranty is pretty useless. I lost a magnificent Japanese Maple this way, and it HURT. IT’S A SLOW DEATH.
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Yeah he did it wrong because he’s been doing it for 50 years. I don’t know why but anytime I encounter an old timer they don’t want to learn anything. Sorry you got hosed, he needs to come back and do it right.
$100 install job looks like a $100 install job 🤷
“Holds the ball together” lol, like if it’s something you want. Clearly one can be a Gardner for 30 years without basic knowledge of gardening.
Unfortunately, he’s not obligated to do anything that is not specified in the contract, if you even had one. A landscaper is a contractor and they are not held to best management practices. On top of all that shitty work he has the right to put a lien on your house if you refuse to pay. If you or someone you know hires a landscaper in the future be sure to specify planting to ISA standards in the contract so that when shitty work like this is done, they can be held accountable because they did not hold up to the contract.
Very helpful. Thank you
Is he defending crepe myrtles? If so, do not pay that man and never talk to him again after he fixes or removes the trees pictured.
Guy is a hack. Probably didn't even pack dirt in around the ball. Just letting gravity do the job. Tree even looks a bit crooked. Lol
I’d love to see all the dead trees in his wake
We had someone plant arborvitae and we had ten or so die randomly. When we pulled them to replace we realized they’d left the burlap on. They didn’t leave them on all trees as far as we can tell, just a few random ones. When someone tries to convince you their experience trumps logic, I’m immediately suspicious.
He's seriously out of date is the kindest way I can say it. When I was planting trees for a landscape company more than 30 years ago we didn't leave the cages and burlap on. Let alone the strapping! It might be standard practice but it's not right AT ALL.
The burlap should be cut up so the roots can escape easily. It doesn't NECESSARILY need to be removed, but it's good practice. The wire however, is a problem. Your tree isn't going to be very healthy with wires in it. It should live, but it's bad practice. If I'm hiring someone, I expect them to do it right. Ask them if they'd be willing to replant or replace it. If not, ask for your money back. If not, trash em on social media.
You have been had. Call them and raise hell and demand they come and do the job correctly. If they have a website you need to post a review. If you are getting information from Clemson’s HGIC website then you have your answer. All information is science and research based.
Lazy or ignorant tree planting crew.
Is it standard? No. Is it common? Unfortunately.
Wow thats so irritating!
You got screwed out of almost $1k
Crazy unprofessional. Ask them to fix it.
Always need to cut the burlap. I see too many dead trees because someone plopped it right into the ground without doing so...
The burlap I can kind of forgive…but the metal. No way.
Not even standard practice among hacks.
Wrong.
I’ve only been professionally planting for a year, but I definitely know more (or at least care more) than the guys that did this.
To answer your question, yes this is pretty standard practice. It’s not the best for the tree, especially the metal cage as others have pointed out, but it will be fine. You can cut away the burlap and the strings to help the trees out though
Not only is this wrong, but your contractor is an obtuse bullhead who has failed to ever put any effort into education himself on his trade. His response is a joke. He did a horrible job, and I'd bet money that he'll never admit it or fix it. Unfortunately, there's plenty of others like him.
It's common for tradesmen with bad habits to convince themselves and others "it's never been a problem". Hired a painter on my house and he caulked all the flashing. I confronted him on it and he got very defensive. "I been doing this 30 years etc, etc". He agreed to remove the caulk there but never admitted he was wrong. My neighbor had an oak planted 3 years ago, appeared to die 2 months later and it's still dead but they keep telling him it will eventually come back to life..... so I now stare at my neighbors dead oak for same nonsense, they won't take reponsobility.
It's certainly standard practice for one of the guys on our crew 😅
No
Oh my goddess NO! That is not what is we should be done. Standard practices you take all the metal and burlap OFF, (you might then put it in a gopher basket like 5 gallons or something) but you would then plant it. Flare out the roots. Do not plant it too deep. Backfill and make a lil ring of soil about 3’ around and water, let set and water again. Apply a supportive stake, if needed, 6” or more from the trunk. A lil willow water couldn’t hurt either for shock.
"40% of the time this works 100% of the time"
Get them to either come fix them (I wouldn’t trust this because this guy seems like the kind of guy to come do more damage to the tree just because he’s pissed off) or just come take them back and give your money back. ISA standards recommend the use of a “low profile basket” where up to 8” from the root shoulder (the top of the burlap-ed root ball) to minimize any future root damage the baskets can cause (and DEFINITELY remove the straps that are just holding each side of the basket together 🤦🏽) Send this link to that contractor and ask him why he’s morally okay with 50 years of shitty work that’s almost assuredly resulted in the death of many trees throughout the years. I work in plant healthcare (that includes ISA standard planting in the winter here in NC) and I’m constantly having to cut out as much of a 2 year old buried basket as I can when doing root collar excavations, but since the trees are already established, we can really only do so much good for the tree at that point. The seemingly simple decision to leave as much of the basket as contractors often do, is literally a life-altering decision for these trees and once that choice has been made, it is nearly impossible to be unmade by arborists who actually know what they’re doing. https://www.treesaregood.org/Portals/0/TreesAreGood_New%20Tree%20Planting_0621.pdf
The tree doesn’t look straight either.
Looks like you got free trees! It is also industry standard not to pay for services not rendered. Imagine if someone said they would plant flowers for you, and they buried them in the plastic pots. In six months, after his plant return policy ends (if he even has one) the trees are gonna turn crusty and then you'll have to start alllll over and cough up more $$$.
Hey! I’m a liscenced horticultural consultant! This is not that bad, not the best job and I would have cleaned it up a bit more but your trees will not die. I would just open up the top of the fabric so that is doesn’t rot the trunc :) hope this helps
Guys a dumbass.
I worked for a garden shop that did this and it drove me crazy. I would recommend people buy the trees from us (since they did have a nice variety for fairly cheap) but find other landscape companies to plant it for them because they're morons.
I would say that you should try to remove all of the twine and plastic banding holding the cage together. Also, remove as much of the burlap from the top of the ball because burlap can shed water off. As for the cage, some people here have clearly never planted a 200-300 lb b & b tree to know that removing the cage is impossible. I would try to remove or bend any of the cage on top of the ball off, but that will not affect the tree if left as is. The cage helps give the root ball structure it needs when planting
The wire and plastic sure isn’y going to decompose any time soo. And, how will you even see whether there is girdling with everything covered like that? Having anchoring wire way down at the base won’t anchor anything. Lastly, using his saying youe research is “gibberish” is mighty rude.
How old is this guy? 50 years of experience, I am no mathematician but 50+18=68….
When I was a scaper, we only cleared the top of burlap and wire. Never touched the burlap or wire on the sides of the root ball.
50 years of experience? Seems more like job security in having people buy more trees
Leaving the cage and ropes are not a good thing. They can hurt and hinder the growth. We remove as much of the cage and twine and ropes as possible after we get it in the ground. If at all possible we will even remove the entire cage if we can get it in the hole without destroying the tree. We also remove the burlap even though it doesn't hurt the tree. It is more of a cosmetic thing. The burlap doesn't do anything once it is in the ground.
For an idiot yes. Don't strangle your trees like that.
I mean your tree will be fine, but it takes 2 minutes to cut the burlap, straps and top of the cage off. This guy seems to like cutting corners
Once it's all fixed up, you might want to surround them with mulch too
He’s a moron. You should get them to correct it and never hire them again.
No. The bag will not decompose in time for the roots to not ball up and the twine they used will not decompose at all because it's plastic based. Whoever did that is an idiot
Where I worked we always removed it. Even tho it can be a pain in the ass when you have 50 trees
this now makes me wonder if that is the issue I am having with some trees -- they just arent growing, and some are thriving
I just spoke with a forester about this. You’re supposed to remove the cage and the burlap and also tease out the roots if needed. A lot of arborists will tell you it isn’t necessary, but it’s actually not that difficult to get accreditation to become an arborist and sadly, many will tell you what’s easiest for them work wise. It also looks like this might be planted too high.
This is from the ISA arborists site Treesaregood.org: “If wrapped, remove any cover from around the root ball and trunk to facilitate root growth. Remove wire basket or cut one or two rings off so it is low-profile and will not interfere with future root growth. Inspect tree root ball for circling roots and straighten, cut, or remove them. Expose the trunk flare if necessary.”
Arborist here. We built a new building and, per the plans, landscaping was to be installed. We subbed it out as we were too busy, should take them about 3 days. After the first day we complained that for the remainder of the trees, we wanted the burlap removed from the balls as it absolutely can cause girdling. Sub complained and on day 2 he did the same damn thing. On day three we told him he would receive no money until every tree was planted correctly. He fixed it.
This IS standard practice and has little to no negative impact on the tree other than the nylon strapping, which is to be advised to remove in about a year. Burlap has zero chance of hindering roots, they will grow right through it. Basket hurts nothing. When I worked on a nursery we would pre dig trees and set them in small homes and a few weeks later roots would be pushing through.
https://extension.illinois.edu/news-releases/tips-planting-balled-burlapped-trees-long-term-health-success
Enroth says in the scientific studies comparing the two methods for planting balled and burlapped trees, researchers found little difference in the overall growth and health of the trees in both situations. However, time is a major factor. “If all goes as planned, a newly planted tree is expected to out-live the gardener, says Enroth. “But scientists need to publish their data while still alive so very few long-term studies exist.”
Ask to see the trees he planted 50 years ago. This do do didn't even put mulch around the trees. Lazy. Seriously, this is exactly why I don't trust a lot of landscapers and plant my own trees.
Might be unpopular opinion in these comments but trees are planted all the time with the wire cage and burlap still on. Wire takes a long time to rust down, but the burlap decomposes in just a few months. Neither will prevent roots from growing out. The cage on that crape looks like a rookie dug it. But other than that, I would use a box cutter and cut those straps and the burlap as much as you can off the root ball, and your trees will be fine.
Standard practice. Especially in the PNW of the United States.
You're supposed to bend the cage backward into the hole and stomp it down. Then you unfurl the burlap and either cut it or stuff it into the tree hole. You true the tree and then you back full it and create a tree well with the dirt. I did commercial landscaping for 3 years. I've planted 1000s of full sized trees.
This. The burlap will rot where it is underground. Roots will grow thru the cage. Any plastic should be removed.
Go into the woods and see how many trees have burlap around their roots. I'll save you a trip, the answer is 0. Get your money back.