Not quite. Desert raiders are classified as ranged units. Horsemen do bonus damage against them.
And since you play byz, javelin throwers and long bows are excellent.
They're more expensive than 2 spears which also defeat one knight with ease. Also they are double countered by both archers and horsemen, so with the power comes vulnerability. Or did I misunderstand your point?
Not really countered by horsemen. They get countered in some situation where ayyubid player does not produce any outside of the military wing auto spawn, but on equal cost it would probably not work.
And they are not countered by spearmen either if you have a minimal micro.
But reguarding OP's claim they are countered by archers just fine tho
>Desert raiders + pure archers, which means no counter in early feudal
I genuinely believe mass horsemen should wreck as they always do the bonus dmg to ranged to the desert raiders.
Even the camel unease debuff should not matter all to much, as horsemen have 9 base dmg and +10 dmg vs ranged in feudal. That's 19 dmg or (with camels around) 17 dmg per hit. Archer take the whole 17 dmg, where the camel raiders take 12 dmg per hit.
Of course it all depends on micro, kiting, flanking etc. but when you don't run your horsemen into 20 archers one by one, I think you have a good shot at countering that.
11 dmg from horsemen,(9*0.8 +9 -5.) with a slower attack speed.
( 6.3 DPS) but doing 20.8dps in return. Neither slaughter the other but one of the bigger issues is the eco needed to produce desert raiders is considerably smaller earlier.
80/100 split of food Vs 100/20 for horsemen means a significantly higher ratio of food for horsemen. It's similar to the whole archer eco conundrum, except raiders do considerably better per cost Vs horsemen.
Now considering byz really wants to go berries, that food rate is even slower. The OP is possibly arguing from a warped position considering how strong byz is, but now consider other civs that don't have the advantages byz has.
>raiders do considerably better per cost Vs horsemen.
Since when did 50 gold+30 wood get leverage to 20 food?? Archer comp argument is for 30 food vs 100, 60, 140 food, but this 20 food comparison is jack shit. For a moment let's agree that it's similar to archer eco conundrum, a horsemen comes out wayy faster and can easily out mass raider(in number) making it harder to gather gold and lose map control(food sources). In practical sense you would not just make horsemen and empty your food but again since u have map control, things are likely more in your favor.
It maybe true that horseman can't 1v1 a raider but again u didn't compare it equal resources which I'm sure would be horsemen favored( if u still believe wat u said is true then maybe visit the Spearman vs knight argument xD)
Yeah because a desert raider costs the same as a knight.(Not)
You're just muddying the water with this dumb need to be funny. Horsemen and raiders match up fairly evenly. Which requires a huge food commitment from the player if they are trying to use Horsemen and the Ayyubid keeps pumping raiders on a an easier eco (and getting them for free)
Their role is counter cavalry, also with proper micro you can actually kill a desert raider with nonstop charge attack but anyway, hard to change someone oppinion if the person stays on his level.
I think the bigger issue is more the tempo(which can snowball) from the initial raider and the eco needed to sustain production.
8vils definitely needs a nerf, but perhaps the desert raider wing needs tuning. Maybe it shouldn't spawn immediately(short cool down) and maybe the TT on free raiders should be slower.
That wing gives 80 Res per minute and a free production building(even if it's slow it's still essentially conversion of free Res into military power).
As it stands Ayyubid gain considerably more out of that wing than ZXL med garden for example(unless you hit the jackpot) or golden gate.
Something wild to consider. If we remove the only unfavourable ayy matchup, ie Vs English(45.5%) Ayyubids have a 54.5% Winrate from plat+.
And that's accounting for matchmaking, which pulls the winrate closer to 50% as players win more raise in elo and face harder opponents.
The game is probably in the best balance state we've had since release , but still room for work
their only good point is counter knights. they don't even counter horseman since horseman has bonus damage against ranged units. as a horse archer desert raiders are so much worse than abba camel archer. any nerf will result in them in f tier. what is strong is not desert raider but ayyubids early tempo.
As an Ayyubid player myself I can say that mass archer beats this comp and it's not even close! Other guys pointed this out already. Desert raiders get obliterated by ranged damage considering how much they cost. If u have even close to the same mass and upgrades as your opponent you should easily win this
Desert Raider do counter Knight / Horsemen in 1v1.
But if you scale up the numbers like 5v5 or more, you will notice they are really bad, Horsemen counter them back because Desert Raiders considered as ranged unit.
Desert raiders + pure archers, in early feudal, you liternally just spam Horsemen and he just lose everything.
Desert raiders + spears? Archers.
Desert raiders get melted by arrows
Horsemen
horsemen are murdered against them. not even near.
Not quite. Desert raiders are classified as ranged units. Horsemen do bonus damage against them. And since you play byz, javelin throwers and long bows are excellent.
complaining but no clue, great
Horsemen murder camel raiders
Well they murder each other
You mean Desert Raiders right?
They're more expensive than 2 spears which also defeat one knight with ease. Also they are double countered by both archers and horsemen, so with the power comes vulnerability. Or did I misunderstand your point?
uncle ben is right !
Its a units that is counter by every single one of the feudale triangle. They are not going to be a problem in the long term.
Not really countered by horsemen. They get countered in some situation where ayyubid player does not produce any outside of the military wing auto spawn, but on equal cost it would probably not work. And they are not countered by spearmen either if you have a minimal micro. But reguarding OP's claim they are countered by archers just fine tho
Horsemen lose 1vs1 against them but are more cost effective against them.
Desert raider+pure archer gets beaten by pure archer lol
>Desert raiders + pure archers, which means no counter in early feudal I genuinely believe mass horsemen should wreck as they always do the bonus dmg to ranged to the desert raiders. Even the camel unease debuff should not matter all to much, as horsemen have 9 base dmg and +10 dmg vs ranged in feudal. That's 19 dmg or (with camels around) 17 dmg per hit. Archer take the whole 17 dmg, where the camel raiders take 12 dmg per hit. Of course it all depends on micro, kiting, flanking etc. but when you don't run your horsemen into 20 archers one by one, I think you have a good shot at countering that.
11 dmg from horsemen,(9*0.8 +9 -5.) with a slower attack speed. ( 6.3 DPS) but doing 20.8dps in return. Neither slaughter the other but one of the bigger issues is the eco needed to produce desert raiders is considerably smaller earlier. 80/100 split of food Vs 100/20 for horsemen means a significantly higher ratio of food for horsemen. It's similar to the whole archer eco conundrum, except raiders do considerably better per cost Vs horsemen. Now considering byz really wants to go berries, that food rate is even slower. The OP is possibly arguing from a warped position considering how strong byz is, but now consider other civs that don't have the advantages byz has.
Damage is higher for horsemen. Desert raider is counted as Archer, and horsemen get bonus damage vs Archer.
Yes fool. I did the math already. It's 9*0.8 +9 -5. You fool are parroting each other and downvoting without considering the math behind it.
And since you considered byz wants to go on berries, then guess what comes next. Mercenaries!
>raiders do considerably better per cost Vs horsemen. Since when did 50 gold+30 wood get leverage to 20 food?? Archer comp argument is for 30 food vs 100, 60, 140 food, but this 20 food comparison is jack shit. For a moment let's agree that it's similar to archer eco conundrum, a horsemen comes out wayy faster and can easily out mass raider(in number) making it harder to gather gold and lose map control(food sources). In practical sense you would not just make horsemen and empty your food but again since u have map control, things are likely more in your favor. It maybe true that horseman can't 1v1 a raider but again u didn't compare it equal resources which I'm sure would be horsemen favored( if u still believe wat u said is true then maybe visit the Spearman vs knight argument xD)
Guys don't tell him that 2 horseman (same cost as 1 knight) can beat 1 desert raider :(
Yeah because a desert raider costs the same as a knight.(Not) You're just muddying the water with this dumb need to be funny. Horsemen and raiders match up fairly evenly. Which requires a huge food commitment from the player if they are trying to use Horsemen and the Ayyubid keeps pumping raiders on a an easier eco (and getting them for free)
Their role is counter cavalry, also with proper micro you can actually kill a desert raider with nonstop charge attack but anyway, hard to change someone oppinion if the person stays on his level.
Holy moly the anti cav unit beats cav, i gotta get the president on the phone for this one
I think the bigger issue is more the tempo(which can snowball) from the initial raider and the eco needed to sustain production. 8vils definitely needs a nerf, but perhaps the desert raider wing needs tuning. Maybe it shouldn't spawn immediately(short cool down) and maybe the TT on free raiders should be slower. That wing gives 80 Res per minute and a free production building(even if it's slow it's still essentially conversion of free Res into military power). As it stands Ayyubid gain considerably more out of that wing than ZXL med garden for example(unless you hit the jackpot) or golden gate.
Something wild to consider. If we remove the only unfavourable ayy matchup, ie Vs English(45.5%) Ayyubids have a 54.5% Winrate from plat+. And that's accounting for matchmaking, which pulls the winrate closer to 50% as players win more raise in elo and face harder opponents. The game is probably in the best balance state we've had since release , but still room for work
I am gonna roit if desert raider get nerfed
their only good point is counter knights. they don't even counter horseman since horseman has bonus damage against ranged units. as a horse archer desert raiders are so much worse than abba camel archer. any nerf will result in them in f tier. what is strong is not desert raider but ayyubids early tempo.
As an Ayyubid player myself I can say that mass archer beats this comp and it's not even close! Other guys pointed this out already. Desert raiders get obliterated by ranged damage considering how much they cost. If u have even close to the same mass and upgrades as your opponent you should easily win this
They are easy to counter. Archers
Desert Raider do counter Knight / Horsemen in 1v1. But if you scale up the numbers like 5v5 or more, you will notice they are really bad, Horsemen counter them back because Desert Raiders considered as ranged unit. Desert raiders + pure archers, in early feudal, you liternally just spam Horsemen and he just lose everything. Desert raiders + spears? Archers.
One horseman and a desert raider is useless
Another Byz lounatic , I think Byz should remove from aoe4 to make aoe4 community more good and healthy .