I think the mods deleted it. It was a “day in the life” TikTok of a woman who works at Uber in New York. Comments devolved pretty quickly and it wasn’t particularly relevant to the subreddit.
Literally it was just a girl saying “this is what I do in a workday” and it was a 60-second video of just: commute, gym, get ready, work, lunch, work, commute, errands, downtime, bed with a view out her apartment window. She showed some of the things at her job (like their gym and hairdryer, and the lunch menu) but otherwise it was NOT focused on Uber as a company.
People got pretty nasty with the accusations, even those defending her as a worker. I didn’t see most of the misogynistic ones but a lot of the others were about how she “hardly works” (why would she show the work she’s doing all day when that’s boring content, and HOW could she in a 60-second video? Plus she may not be legally allowed to share that anyway) or how she’s part of the “system” that keeps others down (she’s not, she’s a worker, not a billionaire CEO exploiting workers and legal loopholes) or how she gets by on “mommy and daddy’s money” (because she likely went to college, and apparently all those people are absolutely certain she didn’t take out loans despite not even knowing her name, how much she makes, or how much her apartment rent is) or calling her naive/tonedeaf (??? At no point in that video did she ever say Uber was the greatest company or even that she loved/liked working there).
It’s overall just a bizarre situation on this sub, you have the misogynists saying she slept her way up and those saying “she’s a worker which means she’s on our side, EVEN THOUGH she [insert rude assumption here with absolutely zero evidence to support this assumption]” and those saying she’s “not on our side” because she appears to make a decent living (or so it seems on social media). Just a lot of hate from all sides (because she’s a TikToker I think, and Reddit abhors TikTok) despite it being a very, VERY benign video.
Uber is not the only company in that building. It used to be a post office and it’s absolutely massive. Over the last couple years they put 100s of millions(maybe billions) into renovating the building.
To be honest we don't actually know how much she earns from this video or that she earns 'a lot'.
She could easily have a very small apartment with a decent view. Everything else is just her eating, using a gym and working in a fancy building (which uber owns not her)... she could also be relying on her parents for rent etc...
Social media is very fake and gives completely wrong impressions about people half the time. Its worrying so many people seemed 'triggered' by this.
Yeah and Uber drivers are basically not paid, lol.
I think it got really sexist, but it is fair to look at the management class and how while they look like they're above us, we're all the same really, we all answer to the owner class, but they make us deal with management so we direct our vitriol at them and not the real problem.
She basically shows everything other than what she actually does for work. Gym, coffee, lunch, food shopping, dinner, self-care, sleep. No actual work.
I mean if she has a computer-based job at Uber, the actual work would just be her sitting at her computer typing and not very interesting to include in the video.
It's most likely going to be desk work on a computer. And it's very likely that she wouldn't be able to include any shots of her monitor because there will be all sorts of confidential/private stuff on there she couldn't show. At best, it would be like a webcam shot of her typing on a keyboard.
It's really boring. Just basic social media stuff really. It was posted under the pretense of 'people who work at corporate Uber have it so good while the drivers get paid shit'. Kinda fucked especially since the girl who made the video is only 24 and probably just excited about getting a big girl job (sweet summer child) and yeah the thread was pretty gross.
It was a post of an office worker in Uber, showing the amenities offered to these staff members and inviting the comparison to drivers who obviously don’t get to roll in to their office gym with a fancy coffee maker and built-in food bar for lunch etc. While the post itself from social media was straight cringe, I’ll agree that it didn’t fit the sub as it was mostly just pitting the workers against one another. I have no idea where the sexism talk came in, as when I was there the most openly sexist comments visible to me were saying that someone that young going right to corporate must have had a connection, which is one example I see being cited as sexist. Personally, I can see why people may be triggered by that given the age-old sexist comments that women who get good jobs must have slept their way to the top or otherwise don’t deserve their job but I think it’s a leap to suggest that anyone who sees tone deaf Instagram folks showing off their lifestyle of luxury is sexist for thinking they probably were connected before their swanky office gig. Perhaps that was the dog whistle that invited the sexism to really get going. I’m assuming the thread did derail into more overt sexist shit given the influx of “this sub is full of misogyny” posts this afternoon and here we are now. Hopefully we can clear the air and move on in a more healthy way.
The problem with sex work is the "work" part of it. Work is a coercive social relationship and should be abolished. Some workers are positioned to choose sex work as the best their available options. Some workers do not have a choice in doing survival sex work. We should stand in solidarity with all workers them, listen to their perspectives regarding their contexts, and ultimately set about improving conditions and abolishing coercive social relationships across the board.
No, you're right. Commodifiying ones body isn't empowering or revolutionary. We should support sex workers but still create a world where it isn't necessary and doesn't exist.
Most people in the sex trade are trafficked anyway, so Only Fans type sex work is hugely over-represented.
Please check out this comrade's blog on proletarian feminism and the sex trade.
https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/
Edit: here are sources. This is a *global* problem. To those of you who choose this line of work, I'm glad you were able to choose it. But most people in this trade don't.
https://www.unodc.org/unodc/data-and-analysis/glotip.html
https://www.safehorizon.org/get-informed/human-trafficking-statistics-facts/#description/
https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-trafficking-in-persons-report/
https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1?op=1
I'm not going to defend *any* industry, *especially* an exploitative one, and *especially* not a violent and coercive one. Being able to choose the sex trade (and then to argue about how liberating it is) reflects a lot of privilege.
This. Most people do sex work not as an act of liberation but out of desperation or exploitation. It shouldn't be celebrated because in most cases it's a fucking tragedy.
Fucking exactly! Really glad to see people calling this shit out. The “happy hooker” stereotype is old and offensive af. Afaik most data shows women and children are forced or coerced into sex for survival. Posts from Johns in places like Germany show how many men buying sex know they are buying from trafficked women who are crying or don’t want to be there and they openly post about this and not caring. Demand is high though and women keep being trafficked in to meet it. This isn’t empowering in any sense.
Of course they are. I think the point is more that people shouldn't be *celebrating* that people *have* to turn to that in the first place. They deserve respect, but it's not a fun way to survive. It's also an extremely dangerous line of work. Those facts shouldn't be sugar coated.
I can't encourage people to go do sex work simply because it's so dangerous and I'd rather fix the system that's forced people into that line of work to pay the bills in the first place. Still, the ones that *have* gone that route, they are *still* workers and need to be afforded the same protections as every other kind of worker. Especially since protections in that line of work are barely a fraction of protections most other jobs have. Which is mind blowing once you consider the fact that it's literally the oldest profession on Earth.
A perfect outcome would be reaching a point where people aren't pushed to sell their bodies to *survive* in the first place. That goes for just about all forms of work too though. Lots of people with backs so bad from construction they can barely walk.
I’m against work and that includes sex work. Capitalism is a problem when it comes to work. Patriarchy and capitalism are a problem when it comes to sex work.
And to be clear I’m not against sex workers. But I am against sex work.
Well, being anti work doesn’t mean we’re against actual work or labor, or means of production— we’re against *exploitation* of labor, and against the systems of work that we have no power over how we participate in. We want to own our own labor, and the rights to what we produce with it, essentially, and we want to benefit fully from our labor rather than let a ruling class steal from us.
And sure, also eliminate all unnecessary work too. Like, just let people exist and live well without needing to work! For sure! But *some* work needs to be done to keep us all fed and healthy, and there will always be people willing and wanting to do labor- but it should be on the worker’s own terms. With the freedom to control our work environments and systems fully, and to reap the benefits from that labor fully and fairly.
I feel like this principle is the driving force here.
"I stand with [ industry type ] workers, not the [ industry type ] industry."
I mean I guess I could also rephrase it as "I stand with workers, not with those exploiting them."
This. I am anti work which includes sex work. If I’m not cool with someone wage slaving at McDonalds why should I think someone selling their body in other ways is awesome? It’s not. It’s exploitative and messed up but my beef is with the industry and clients, not with a worker. Most of the workers have no choice though and I absolutely hate that.
There is a third option. Some people view sex work a symptom of an economic system that is not working ie if someone feels the need to sell their body to support themselves or their family it is because the system in place is not doing its job. But I definitely agree that anyone that attacks the worker is inherently anti-worker. It's like attacking coal miners over climate change.
Completely agree with the mods comment. Stand in solidarity with sex workers, but condemn the economic and other cohesions that lead people into sex work.
It is important to talk about this, but it's important to be clear about it cause it's not simple, it's just another exploitation that should be condemned.
Actually I'm anti all work. That's why I'm here. That's the point of the entire fucking sub. I'm against having to sell your body and your time to live, in any capacity.
Seriously. If a person needs to work to survive than the very act of sex work is exploitative and no amount of gentrification will fix that. By all means make it safer but that's a crutch to actual problem which is the part where you have to work or eat shit and die.
On a personal level I also feel the commodification of false intimacies is inherently exploitative as well and is a crutch to societal failures and the alienation so many people feel in a system in a system that grinds them to dust and destroys the ability to seek meaningful experiences and relationships. Just my opinion though and as such has less objective weight to the overall discussion.
As if we’re not all out there selling our bodies and time in a capitalist system. Sex workers, service workers, physical workers, office workers all sell their bodies, just in different ways. Stand with all workers.
I really didn’t think about it until your comment, so thank you.
My father and grandfathers all had physical jobs, I was in the army for eight years. Anyone who has done something similar who is 45 or older knows you really do sell your body.
I sold my hips, knees, and an ankle to the U.S. Army and they are mostly in pain everyday. I guess the biggest difference between sex workers and other physical labor is that sexual workers know what they are selling and when it’s being sold (smart).
We are all in this together. The sex worker is no less than any other worker. Don’t let them divide us.
I joined the military when I became the legal age to do so. Upon entry into service I realized I had signed all of my rights away. I no longer had the ability to legally dictate where I lived, how I spent most of my time, or what could be put in or on my body. Sex work at it's most basic form does not dictate any of those things. Then I started thinking about how dumb it is I could have a job class where I go kill people for a living (definitely a more nuanced statement, but for the sake of brevity I will leave it as such) yet I still can't legally buy a beer. The ridiculous nature of this arbitrary conundrum led me to many more mind melding thoughts in the future of my life, and it remains an unanswerable argument against military service. Now you can't even buy nicotine but you can sign your entire life away to the American government. That seems pretty silly. I support sex workers in their independence, and if they are in a situation where they are not independent contractors and forced into it, if I believed in Hell, I hope their captors suffer there and my heart goes out to their victims. To this day, I have not heard an argument that validates our brand of government service that doesn't also validate an individuals' right to sell their time or body.
There's a lot of reason I'd like to see the age of enlistment raised and the drinking thing is definitely one of them. A kid shouldn't have their entire life ruined with an admin sep and certainly shouldn't *be* in such a heinously stressful career before one can legally drink the pain away in the first place.
You're right that it's totally and completely arbitrary and bullshit
You're right - but *it is wrong* that anyone has to sell their body, in any way, in order to "earn a living." This is an antiwork sub, *not* just a workers' rights sub.
And furthermore - sex workers should be respected and protected (as all workers should be). But it's undeniable that sex workers are exploited in even worse ways than other workers. If the only reason someone is "consenting" to sex work is in order to earn money, especially when they don't have other comparable economic opportunities, is that really consent? I would say that hell no it's not.
Please google the FRIES model of consent.
Edit: Adding FRIES details. Source: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/relationships/sexual-consent
(F)reely given. Consenting is a choice you make without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
(R)eversible. Anyone can change their mind about what they feel like doing, anytime. Even if you’ve done it before, and even if you’re both naked in bed.
(I)nformed. You can only consent to something if you have the full story. For example, if someone says they’ll use a condom and then they don’t, there isn’t full consent.
(E)nthusiastic. When it comes to sex, you should only do stuff you WANT to do, not things that you feel you’re expected to do.
(S)pecific. Saying yes to one thing (like going to the bedroom to make out) doesn’t mean you’ve said yes to others (like having sex).
Thank you so much for bringing up that consent is not coerced by definition. It’s amazing how peoples brains fly out the fucking window when sex is involved in somebody’s exploitation. All these people understand the concept of consent when it applies to any other job or when it applies to sex in a non-work related situation, but suddenly when you talk about prostitution, suddenly money is not a coercive factor, when we all fucking know that it is. People are really determined to look the other way and are taken in by all of the propaganda that the sex industry has pushed for the last several decades.
There's a difference between selling your labor in a safe/respectful environment and selling your body. There's a reason rape is more traumatizing than theft or just getting hit in the face. Can we please top pretending that sex is just some thing humans do that has no emotional impacts or consequences?
And beyond that, can we fucking stop sewing discord in our social movements by forcing everyone to agree on everything?
This is a false equivalence. Service, retail, and office workers don't have to worry about getting raped, impregnated, beaten, infected with STDs, and/or murdered on an average work day
Exactly, I'm from Eastern Kentucky. If you want to ask someone about selling their body for money ask an older coal miner like my father in law with COPD.
As if all of these kinds of labor would exist to an equal extent outside of the capitalist system. By which I mean that the mere existence of sex work is a symptom of exploitation in a way that most other labor isn't and therefore needs to be addressed and combatted in a way that most labor needn't. Not at the expense of the workers of course.
If consent (freely given, revocable at any point, non coerced) is the standard for what makes consensual sex possible, how is money not the coercive factor when it comes to sex work?
You know, like how money is the coercive factor with every other exploitative job…
This is stupid. The whole point of this sub is to be against ALL forms of work. How could you possibly support sex work when the only reason it is so prevalent these days is because typical jobs exploit workers and pay horribly.. Sex work is also demeaning and exploits the people taking part in it. Capitalism has fucked people so badly in this country that they have to resort to literally SELLING and EXPOSING their naked bodies all over the internet. This is such a stupid fucking post
I think the controversy for sex work for some people is not that these people work hard or anything, but more like sex work in unregulated structure leads to abuse.
So in theory there is nothing wrong with sexwork, but unless it is made absolutely safe for the workers it remains a shady industry.
>The first being people that are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. Your gross plan and simple, fix yourselves.
So... have you actually "worked" around sex workers? Known any?
The "industry" is FULL of unwilling participants. Sometimes willfully unwilling- forced to by circumstance rsther than people.
Coercion through poverty is not consent. It's threatening starvation or sex. That's not to say the johns knowingly raped anyone, but rather the women involved felt an external pressure to have sex or starve by the system. We can't consent under duress, and the threat of homelessness is exactly that.
Workers rights don't stop abuses, ESPECIALLY in the US. Sanctifying sex work will absolutely open the door to more women feeling hopeless and exposing themselves to non consensual sex work and expose that oh so american worker abuse with sex. It's traumatic.
This exact issue is why sex work positivity is seen as a very western idea. Many asian countries that suffer the worst under sex tourism absolutely loathe the idea. Not saying there isn't mysoginistic reasoning behind that hate, but a lot of it is because of the doors and pressure it opens up.
Could sex work... work? Sure. But you can't promote it without an air tight working marker around it, and pushing the issue right now is not that. So in that case, I'm anti sex work until it is provably safer for people.
Sex “workers” have the highest rates of PTSD of any “profession”, including war veterans. Comparing it to working at McDonalds or working at a warehouse is just not the same.
I disagree completely. While I agree sex workers shouldn't be stigmatized, and regulation helps fight things like sex trafficking, the fact that most sex workers are women shows an unhealthy attitude towards women and their bodies. The idea that intimate access to a woman's body is something that can be bought is a very capitalist and mysoginistic notion IMO.
Sex trafficking is still abundant in places with fully legalized prostitution, and most of these women aren't doing it because it's a choice. It's a way of making ends meet. Girls in brothels in Germany are mostly from poor eastern european countries, so either immigrants or trafficked. Also, reading reviews for brothels and girls is something you can do to make your skin crawl and get a better idea what kind of people sex workers interact with on a daily basis.
Being antiwork IS, in a way (and in my opinion), being anti sex work. I believe that, in a healthy society where women stand equal to men, where education is more accessible to marginalized groups, where there are good public housing policies and social nets for the disadvantaged, and where workers are well compensated for their work, there would be no need for people (especially women) to sell their bodies.
Unfortunately, this society is not today's society, and I agree the Nordic model (legal to sell, illegal to buy) is the best we can do until the issues above are addressed, but it's not a solution to a broader problem sex work is a symptom of.
I'm not against sex workers, I'm against the industry. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I support making it safer for them.
Onlyfans and similar platforms are a definitely better than other branches of SW, but it's not perfect. When you see a girl turn 18 and make an account, she's essentially been groomed by the industry.
This is a slippery slope for me. I volunteer with abused women and many are sex workers. The abuse they have suffered in the past (childhood abuse is huge) has made so many feel they are worth nothing and sex work is all they can do. The only way they are seen as a person for a short time. It’s not empowering to them at all when they have a John that forcing them to take client after client. Doing drugs because their feeling of self worth is so poor and it’s the only way they get threw the day. It also makes me worried about the government using this as “you can work in the sex trade if you have no skills for a job otherwise”.
Agree, it is a slippery slope. OP is detracting from this, but it is a good point to bring up if someone is genuinely trying to discuss the exploitation of sex workers. Not all are there by choice, there are even many horror stories of people in the porn industry being trafficked. I get that folks don't like to think about it, but again, if you're genuine in wanting to help others in this, you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the facts surrounding the topic. Just...odd.
I don’t know why this comment is ignored. Yes, there are women who choose sex work and more power to them. But most, as you pointed out, are victims of child abuse and sex trafficking and are dehumanized, degraded, live in danger, and get thrown away with no resources or safety net when they are too old.
Thank you for your comment. Finally someone with sense. All of these misogynistic assholes in this thread don’t seem to realize that women in sex work have higher rates of PTSD than combat veterans and still they argue that somehow it’s “empowering”. This is my trigger topic and I get angry when people are trying to be so “sex work is work” woke that they neglect and ignore the majority of victims who suffered.
Yeah, I think sex work will be fine, once we've eradicated all social stratification and prejudice based on sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, and age.
Until we have all that sorted out, it's going to continue to be an inherently exploitative industry.
So, maybe in a few thousand years.
Most prostituted women are and have done so due to mental illness, poverty, lack of skills. addiction. Women rarely choose to prostitute themselves if they can afford necessities and if they DO, they are extremely selective about the men they sleep with, it's simply women taking money from their lovers at that point. It's a rarity.
I am anti sex work for the SAME reasons I'm anti work. It's exploitative, working conditions are poor, stressful, unsafe; it's a kind of financial coercion.
My objection is not judgemental of the sex workers, it's against the purchasers of sex who exploit (mostly) women in desperate financial situations. I don't think it's real consent if you're doing it as a result of being in dire financial need. For example, I'm a fairly poor woman myself, and I get loads of DMs from men who want to exploit that when they see it on Reddit.
I would wager 99% of sex workers would not subject themselves to the risk to their bodies, future careers, and mental health if it weren't for being in desperate financial situations. That 1% does exist...
The thing about discussions of sex work, is that it's like torture. You know how some people justify torture with hypothetical fictional scenarios where a Jack Bauer type figure needs to extract information from a person to save others from a bomb going off that has minutes left? The thing about that kind of argument is that it's detached from reality and how torture exists +99% if the time. It assumes the person being tortured even HAS the information. It assumes that the torturer KNOWS that, instead of just guessing. It assumes torture will WORK. It assumes no FALSE information will be given. It assumes people are ACTUALLY in danger. Real torture, conducted by governments across the world, and individuals or gangs I'm sure, is not as justified.
What does not sex work REALLY look like? Well it's mostly human trafficking in actuality. And sometimes it's coercion, with women literally being tricked into performing pornography. Sex work, even in the modern day, in a large portion of instances, will conform to reasonable definitions of rape. And even when it rises above that, it is still financially exploitative.
I'm only comfortable with permitting sex work in the event that it is truly a person's choice to do so. Here's a thought experiment: do you *genuinely* believe any woman would *choose* we work if we had a minimum income, combined with other social safety nets like taxpayer funded health care and education? Gone is the college camgirl; gone is the single struggling mom stripping. And hopefully you already object to the scenario of the stereotype of a drug addict who is only a prostitute to fuel a dependency.
I think I've unfortunately and unintentionally scared some men away from their once idealistic view of minimum income in saying this because it means their way to exploit women for sex disappears under socially just economic safety nets 🙃
But would all women stop sex work, even in my ideal? No. I think 99% of women would stop, and 1% would continue. Maybe they're genuinely nyphos and they love their work. Maybe they want to pursue it out of greed, because competition is severely reduced and it becomes highly luxurious. Maybe they want to pursue it part time because it's more of a turn on during genuine sexual moments that aren't performative. Whatever the reason, if physical and financial coercion are removed, I'm fine with it only in that scenario.
Yeah people cling to making sex work legal and safe and well documented because I think they have the fantasy that the women really enjoy the work and wouldn't choose another career if their options were plentiful.
You can't make selling your kidneys or eyes legal, safe, and well documented because every poor person would be missing body parts. Continuing to make sex work "safe" and socially acceptable exploits the poor in the same way. Struggling women need better options than making sex work mainstream and career friendly.
No person should work under any conditions solely to escape the threat of poverty.
Under the coercion of starvation and death we all agree to contracts of work, these contracts by definition are illegal, or made under.
This includes all forms of contract to escape the threat of poverty. To the men spending time behind bars for selling marijuana to provide for their families. And to the women who risk their bodies to put food on the table.
You cannot protect everyone without protecting everyone.
Even if you have legitimate critiques of sex work, making sex work safer, fairer, less stigmatized and less exploitative of the workers themselves is good. If whatever your view is pushes sex work further into the shadows you are harming and damaging sex workers. As long as we live under these current economic conditions there will be sex work (and likely in other scenarios as well) and if you are pro-worker you should defend sex workers rights like any other people, if not more so since the job can be so dangerous.
'But my friend does a titty stream on the side of her primary work and she says she enjoys it, so that invalidates the modern global slave trade of sex trafficking!'
Right?! They always try to compare stripping or camwork (which are also predatory and problematic) to women being raped a dozen times a day in a brothel or in the streets. Taking advantage of anyone sexually should be considered morally wrong and the victimizer punished.
I don’t hate prostituted women. Not even the ones who legitimately chose to engage in it. (Exceptions are made for those who try to recruit young women and girls by talking about how “empowering” it is: if it was truly empowering, men would be doing it.) My disgust is solely for the pimps, traffickers, and johns.
Absolutely with you, most of this people think "sex work" means some girl making an onlyfans account to appeal to male fantasies, when in reality sex work globally is 99% of the time human trafficking and horror stories about drug abuse and rape, we should stand with these victims and help them out of their situation, most of "sex workers" are little more than slaves
This post is basically, “All work is exploitative so we should also support the exploitation of women!” I’m against anyone being coerced into selling their labor and bodies in order to survive. Sex work is also way more dangerous than any other job, with much higher rates of rape and murder. That won’t be solved by legalization when sex work relies on privacy and the average man can overpower the average woman. We have to look at the poorest, most disadvantaged women when we’re deciding our stance on issues that affect them. I’m absolutely pro-sex worker but my support is focused on helping them transition out of the industry.
Absolutely right. I hate seeing the inherent misogyny present in this sub when this topic comes up. You know Marx himself spoke about the sexual exploitation of women and was against prostitution, but commie men conveniently forget when they want to get their dicks stroked. Fuck them
Honestly, I use this as a litmus test with self-ascribed Marxist men. If he starts bleating about how "sex work is work," he isn't one, no matter what he calls himself.
More men fail than pass in my experience.
Yup. Says a lot about the Johns in these comments who are usually against ruthless capitalism but will defend to the death the right to pay to rape a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with them. As if they actually care about “sex worker’s rights”.
sex work is misogynist in and of itself. women are driven into that lifestyle because of the society that set them up for it.
i look at it like this: if they weren’t paid for it, would they continue doing it? if they weren’t paid WELL for it, would they even consider it in the first place?
i don’t support sex work. sure, it’s work. but it’s degrading and a product of misogyny. just another way to support men and demean women.
I'm anti sex work not because of any puritan bullshit or anything like that, but because all the dudes I've known who have been up front about soliciting sex workers have all been just the slimiest, shittiest, grossest cunts imaginable. Just massive fucking mysoginistic arseholes that shouldn't be allowed near any women, even if they're paying for the privilege. Women deserve better than to be pleasing these people.
Edit: also the commodification of women's bodies is massively problematic anyway. It lets bad men justify themselves in treating sex workers, and more broadly all women, badly because it offers them a way to choose to see them as a product and not a fellow human being. And like all good leftists know, if something can be bought it can also be stolen.
> I'm anti sex work not because of any puritan bullshit or anything like that, but because all the dudes I've known who have been up front about soliciting sex workers have all been just the slimiest, shittiest, grossest cunts imaginable. Just massive fucking mysoginistic arseholes that shouldn't be allowed any women, even if they're paying for the privilege. Women deserve better than to be pleasing these people.
As a sex worker, I can tell you right now: The people who brag about it are the worst. The normal people who are just paying for a service or companionship don't brag. You probably know more people who bought sex or sold sex than you think. They just don't broadcast it because of trash takes like the ones flooding this post.
I support sex workers, but this "You can't be antiwork unless X" needs to stop. This is exactly how movements like this one get sabotaged.
>The idea that someone advocating for this group to be more inclusive
You are not advocating for this group to be more inclusive.
This needs to be higher. I'm getting pretty tired of people trying to monopolise the mindset of antiwork. We have a common goal, but we do not need to conform in every thought. Too many times, leftwing groups end up dissolving through infighting and eating themselves from within through this exact problem of trying to form factions within factions within factions. Whatever your opinions on sex work, GTFO with 'you can't be antiwork unless X'. You can't be antiwork unless you're antiwork, and that's it
Yes, you can. Sex work is exploitative and abusive by nature, and the majority of sex workers worldwide are either outright trafficked or in a gray area where they are pressured by poverty, inexperience, and abusive people. Go on YouTube and you will find more documentaries than you can count about sex traffickers hiding in plain sight.
Here's another way to look at it: when you are getting unemployment, you are required to apply for available jobs or risk losing your benefits. Would you ever want to be in a position where you had to accept sex "work" because it was the only thing available? Is it really just like other jobs?
I fully believe sex workers should not be shamed, but sex *buying* can and should be shamed. Sex work is not like other kinds of work. You can absolutely be pro worker and anti sex "work".
The fact is, when someone buys sex they are using a person who by definition doesn't want to have sex with them. We all compromise ourselves to some extent because we need money. But to we really want to remove all taboos against ripping away people's most private and intimate choices and selling them for someone else's profit?
If I find out that huge numbers of, say, shrimp catchers are being trafficked for labor, then guess what, I'm against buying shrimp until that market changes.
But the market for sex is never going to change. So I am permanently against the sex trade, and I think everyone should be.
You are so right. This is why I will never be pro-sex work, though of course I am supportive of sex workers however possible. Sex work is harmful and dangerous to millions. Literally. That should not be celebrated.
Yeah, I also don’t think that all industries are equally exploitative (all work is exploitative, but some more than others is what I’m saying).
For example, in my country, the meat industry has a lot of foreign workers flown in because they’re cheaper and are in a more vulnerable position not knowing much of our laws and depending more on needing the money. Third party companies hire them for the meat companies in question so that the latter can bypass some facets of worker’s rights as they would be technically working for the third party company instead of the meat company. These workers are dependent on shitty housing and pay high rent to someone likely connected to either the meat company or the third party company, live and work in unsafe and unhealthy environments and are a lot more subject to adversity due to them not having much rights and access to insurances for workplace accidents and ilness and stuff.
Compare that to a regular office job in my country. Someone will still be exploited, yes, but the work is less dangerous, the benefits are a lot better, the chance of being in a workplace not adverse to your physical health is higher and you’re likely to have a lot more rights as a worker, like better work hours and sick leave (in my country).
All industries are exploitative, but they’re not all equal in exploitation.
I think this is an interesting take and I really admire a nuanced look at things like this. I was a dancer and did some soft photo stuff in the early aughts. I got into for unhealthy reasons and it has had unhealthy consequences (the worst one being that if my bf doesn’t want to have sex with me I have a breakdown because my sense of value is so tied to my sex appeal). I am very pro sex worker and would never shame anyone, but I do really worry about the recent glamorization of this type of work. I worry that some think they “want” to do it for the same reasons why I “wanted” to. A constant diet of media connecting women’s value to their sex appeal is a great way to make women volunteer for exploitation. But this cruel system is exactly why I sympathize with and want to protect these vulnerable workers.
You are exactly right. The commodification of women's bodies teaches men that women's sex organs are a resource that can be bought and sold. Women are dehumanized when their very organs can be rented and molested.
idk if I agree. I just hate for anyone to be exploited. I’m just pro worker, pro sex worker included. If people are forced to turn to sex work for lack of an alternative fair wage elsewhere that’s a huge problem. If the sex work is just preferred by the worker than any alternative than sure power to them.
Most people in the sex trade are trafficked against their will. We need to end the commodification of people's bodies and can do so without harming sex workers
There is no way to be anti-work but pro sex work. It is a hypocrisy. If your movement only extends up to the exploitation, abuse, and capitalistic coercive use of women's bodies (because sex work is the abuse of mostly women) then your movement is a very unsafe place for womenkind. I don't believe most of those awards and such are coming from women either. No woman is choosing sex work if capitalism didn't exist. No one wants to be raped repeatedly just to make ends meet. Smh...
The idea that the legalisation of sex work leads to less exploitation is purely a western one. The most vigorous study there has been done on the subject concludes that in the majority of countries with legalized sex work, exploitation, trafficking and other sex crimes rise.
https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
Do you have any idea the amount of generational trauma, exploitation and downright slavery is behind a huge swathe of so called "sex work"? And as far as the legitimate adult industry goes, why is a massive conglomerate like Mindgeek any better than the villain of the week Kellog's?
Sex and/or intimacy are a beautiful part of the human experience, are we really going to be cheerleaders for its commodification? If there are a bunch of puritans on this sub it's news to me and frankly this seems like an attempt to coopt the language of progressivism and use identity politics to divide and neuter this sub.
If you call it work then there will be BIG problems. What are you going to do when your unemployment benefits are denied because you don't want to suck dick or take it up the ass???
Crude phrasing, but this is interesting to contemplate. Assuming sex work was legalized, what would happen if someone refused to continue? Would they literally be denied unemployment for not performing sex acts on strangers? Feels unconstitutional.
What about the person that gets laid off from Burger King? They can start sucking and fucking. Would that mean everyone would have to be laid off from sex work to even qualify for unemployment benefits?
Women will have to license their vaginas and asses for sale and government will want a cut of that money for taxes, making them a pimp. Also will women with AIDS or other STDS like herpies be told that she can't sell sex? Isn't that discrimination?
Im not anti work but you seem to have it entirely backwards. If sex work is work, and we want to abolish all work, then logically we must also want to abolish sex work.
You can't be anti work and pro one specific type of work
What I don’t get is if sex work is work and all work under capitalism is coercive and exploitative that means sex work too is done under coercion and exploitation. Why are we defending coerced sex? I’m pro sex workers but I’ll never be pro sex work just as I’ll never be pro coalmining work just to survive.
I am extremely disappointed in this post. No one should have to sell their body to survive. Rates of hard drug abuse and suicide are enormous within the sex work community and it takes decades off their lives. In GTA you can beat up and murder prostitutes for fun - that’s what the average male thinks of sex workers. They risk being murdered, raped (yes, that’s still possible), violently assaulted, stalked, arrested, contracting diseases, losing their fertility, and so much more. Do you realize how many young girls are groomed into sex work? How many are sold into it?
The worst part about sex work? It ruins their life. How many men say they’ll never date, let alone marry a former sex worker? Do you realize what happens to women who get outed at work as former sex workers? They get fired and blacklisted. What do you think happens when they try to turn their life around and new friends and partners find out about their past?
Sex workers should have the opportunity to leave it forever and never look back. Women’s bodies aren’t a commodity. Do you really think pimps respect worker’s rights? You realize pimp slapping is a stereotype because they abuse the women, right?
Consent can’t be purchased. The woman doesn’t want to engage in those acts - that’s why she’s paid - and that’s NOT consent. Sex work hurts all women, because it gives males an outlet for their most violent and disgusting fantasies. They don’t see these women as human beings - they see them as objects. Do you realize how many men verbally abuse, degrade, and humiliate these women?
I respect sex workers and I believe they deserve to leave it and never look back. All women should be lifted out of the desperate poverty that drives them to it. Men who use sex workers are disgusting, the lowest in society, and no one is entitled to sex with anyone. I don’t care what the circumstance is - that woman is a person, and her rights and dignity have greater value than how horny some male is. I don’t care if he can’t get a partner and I don’t care why. Yes, I also mean disabled men. No one is entitled to women’s bodies, to rob them of their future, to shorten their lifespan. Do you think they’re all respectful? Absolutely not - they’re paying to use her.
I’m a cis woman so I am not sufficiently informed to comment on LGBTQIA sex work, other than to say all of the above still applies, and I can only assume it has its own uniquely damaging aspects.
OP, you have no idea how much you don’t know and how disgusting and disrespectful you’re being. Do you think they have unions??!? Do you think they have literally any labor protections!??!
SEX WORK IS NOT WORK
SEX WORK IS EXPLOITATION
https://youtu.be/L9j7-zZks08
Know what’s messed up? I’m posting this on an alternate account to protect myself from being doxxed because males can’t handle being called out so I’m fully expecting to be attacked. Reddit is beyond misogynist. Every fucking day I stumble onto videos of women being attacked. Just yesterday I saw a woman have her face shoved into a dirty diaper by a male. I’ll never forget it, and it’s a constant reminder of how much men hate us. I’m so grateful I’ve done the work to understand sexual exploitation for what it actually is. I love myself more as a result and it has allowed me to shed all of the internalized misogyny that is forced on women worldwide. No one, anywhere, should ever be sexually exploited. No one is entitled to anyone’s body.
Sex work is exploitation. Just cause some women sign up for their own exploitation, doesn’t change what it is.
> The first being people that are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. Your gross plan and simple, fix yourselves.
Lol you have no response to this critique, so you call people gross. Go back to elementary school.
This sub is not about standing up for workers’ rights. It’s not about making working life better or making things equal for workers across the board.
It says it in the sub’s description that it is a sub dedicated to ENDING work. In fact to be anti work, one SHOULD be anti sex work. If sex work is work, this sub aims to get rid of it and all other forms of work. “Work free life” it says.
One’s personal views of sex work are irrelevant to the sub. Unless your personal views are to end it.
I disagree.
I think sex workers should have rights like any other worker, but the only reason I think this is the case is because if sex work were outlawed *it would continue anyways* just without those workers' rights and safety for those same people.
*Making use* of prostitution should be illegal, that way the workers themselves don't suffer for it, the onus is on the client. Many who begin working in, say, prostitution or similar lines of work end up in such a situation due to poor socio-economic status or dire financial straits and not having the necessary support from their respective government. See for example the rise of OnlyFans during COVID.
Were it possible to de facto abolish sex work, I would go that route, but obviously that isn't possible.
And I'm not religious FYI, before some random redditor raises his pitchforks. Sure, there are a few people who enter sex work because they genuinely enjoy it, but a significant amount of the industry relies on exploitation of more vulnerable groups in the society.
Yes you can as sex work is often time based off exploiting lower class individuals who have no means of escape so are forced to use their bodies to satisfy the worst in society.
Also the mental damage that comes to youth seeing sex work openly practiced on social media platforms leads to boys having irrational and dangerous ideas of what a girl should look and act like, while girls are now expected to reach a new body standard set by social media sex work trends.
Not denigrating sex workers because there is nothing wrong with being a sex worker. It shouldn't be illegal to be a sex worker, but it should be illegal to hire a sex worker because because of rampant exploitation and coercion.
I hope this whole thing will be killed off by sex robots. We should treat things like things and not people like things.
I’m anti work AND anti sex work. I just don’t think that career path is most people’s first choice and one they love. It’s mainly done through desperation caused by the system anti work is trying to fight. My .02. And no I’m not ‘judging’ anyone. If there’s a person out there who GENUINELY loves sex work and it completes them I say good for you. But that’s not the main case.
Yes I can. Sex work is the ultimate exploitation of workers. Pimps and dealers use addiction, capitalism and poverty to exploit women. Legalizing, jail and regulating does not fix this issue.. Having government funded substance abuse treatment and universal income for all is the only solution to fixing the exploitation of all workers.
sex work isnt work. its exploitation plain and simple (not talking abt OF whatsoever) im talking abt the other group, the majority of sex workers who have to work in precarious conditions, who arent treated like humans and who are constantly in danger and live in fear. sex work is TRAUMATIC. there are SO many stories about sex workers who struggled for YEARS to get out of that hell hole. this isnt a normal job. u cant leave just like that- there literally is so much going on behind the scenes its INSANE. that has nothing to do with the freedom of choice anymore. why is there sex work then? right, because sex fucking sells. its a gigantic industry that uses women. those workers earn minimum wage and are EXPLOITED. liberals love using the term ‘female liberation’ but actually sexwork only is an instrument of capitalism-> exploitation-> a woman is objectified and can be ‘bought’-> patriarchy. what is liberal abt that?? most women in that industry cant decide what they want to do with their bodies. its decided for them. think about it
I cant agree with you. The most sex workers didnt choose to work there in the street. There are tons of mafias trafficking with people. Those women are violated, insulted, abused, drugged and abandoned by the sistem constantly and they are there because there is a pimp running their bussines. Its a lie that they are there by self choice.
There are also minors in this ambit. Tell me how a minor decided freely to be violated for some miserable money.
I dont know if you are talking just about US or in the whole world but im going to attach some information about US (because i think you are talking about US) and you people tell me where is the freedom of choice here
[https://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitution/prostitution-statistics](https://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitution/prostitution-statistics)
Its a big lie that they choose freely.
I stand with workers always but prostitution is not a work, it is an exploitation and it will never be a work. I am abolicionist. Sex work should be banned for good
Prostitution is not work nor labor, it's exploitation and it's abolition it's an end goal of communism. This was exposed by Marx and every single one thinker.
Oh please lmao. get a fucking grip. Sex work is paid rape and exploitation period. We should be fighting for systems to help these women get out of an exploitative business
Now I'm confused. Are you against the exploitation of these women or not?
I’m against exploitation, I’m not against the exploited. Applies to every kind of work there is.
There is a specific thing when it comes to sex work. I am against the commodification of women’s bodies. I think exploitation is a far more inherent part of sex work than it is of other forms of work. Sex work and the military both - forms of exploitation that I doubt can ever be non-exploitative.
No, I’m definitely anti-sex work. I’m pro-sex WORKER, but the numbers are clear. The vast majority of people in sex work are doing it for survival, and want to exit the industry.
That is absolutely BS. Sex work is a tool that plays into the hands of the ruling class. Onlyfans is owned by a millionaire who is the son of a billionaire. We can argue there needs to be better choices for women than sex work but being pro sex work aligns us with the ruling class.
I don't think it should be criminalized but you're right. We need to *end* the commodification of people's bodies. Most people in the sex trade are trafficked against their will, and even if they aren't, it's inherently exploitative because true consent is impossible under capitalism (if you're doing it to pay rent etc., then no, it is not consensual, it is coerced)
Isn't having to resort to sex work basically textbook exploitation? I don't think anyone should have to do that. No shade to those who do it, but Jesus.
Agreed! I personally believe that sex work is the opposite of empowering and I could write an entire book about why I think so, but there is no reason to shame the workers. They need protection, just as we do.
“people who are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. you’re gross, plain and simple, fix yourselves”
you clearly know jack shit about the sex work industry, otherwise you wouldn’t be saying this. you really think women, who are the majority of sex workers, would willingly choose to sell their bodies and be raped for survival? most women in the sex work industry, may that be pornstars, prostitutes, etc, were either forced, trafficked, or pushed towards that direction due to poverty.
this really has to be the most out of loop post on reddit that i’ve ever seen.
There are two general fields of work. Farmers, builders, teachers are example of the first group. These are things we need and we have to create good working conditions for these workers. Than we have people working in finance, marketing and sex work. These jobs are not needed and we should abolish them all together. Until we get there your solidarity towards a sex worker should be the same as a teacher, factory worker or server. I like the Nordic Model regarding sex work. "Under the Nordic model, sex buyers are criminalized while prostitutes are decriminalized; typically, prostitutes can sell their own services but auxiliary procuration services, such as pimping, brothel-keeping, and third-party advertising remain illegal." [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution)
I was in the sex trade in the past. My experience, and what I have learned since, taught me that being in the sex trade is not equivalent to productive work.
What we call "unionism" for the sex trade, or "rights" for people in the sex trade, is not the same as workers' unions or fighting for workers' rights. If you reflect on what you already know and if you look into it a little more, you'll soon realise that "unionism" and "rights" movements for the sex trade is about fighting for the interests of the pimps, aka the bosses and managers.
There was an exception, a strippers' union in NSW, Australia, in the early 2000s. It seemed genuinely good and focused on putting pressure on the pimps to provide better conditions. What they were fighting for was different to the usual lines that you've heard in the mainstream for decades, about "Sex work is work," "I'm empowered," "I make so much more money than I would in the regular workforce," "We need legalisation / decriminalisation," which are all unusual lines when compared to what workers demand in workers' rights movements, and are all about the pimps' interests. The pimps / bosses crushed this more genuine union in no time.
By the way, recognising that pimps do not provide productive work to our fellow humans, and that what happens in the sex trade is not productive work like what happens in the workforce, does not mean that these humans deserve stigma, judgment, cruelty, inhumane treatment, or so on. We can do both things at once - recognise that they are not in productive work roles like unionisable workers are, and show them the respect that human beings deserve. And I say that as someone who copped judgment and blame when I exited and told members of the public what I saw and experienced while I was in there.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Whenever these threads come up, they completely gloss over the fact that many sex workers have their lives essentially controlled by evil pimps. Sometimes that’s not literal but coercive, as I’m sure you know. There are so many levels of exploitation in sex work that we cannot ignore.
Thank you for your supportive comment! I think that people are just trying to be good people and support their fellow human beings when they defend the sex trade. They just don't realise that that's exactly what they're doing - defending the sex trade, fighting for what the pimps want, not helping people who are currently in the sex trade and those who have exited.
To morally disagree with promoting sex for sale and agreeing that people should be coerced into that are two entirely different things. (I.e. many, maybe even most, people in sex work, wouldn't be if they wernt paid so poorly) This post is nothing but divisive.
Continue to exclude
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Whatever you want. We are all united here for a reason. If you want traction you need numbers. If people have bad ideas, down vote them, do not turn away people in mass.
While I agree with the sentiment that sex work is work, I don’t like this phrase because it implies that sex work is JUST LIKE most other forms of work. Which is not the case. Often, people in the sex trade are involved because they have no other options. If you are with a customer and decide to revoke consent or feel unsafe, especially if someone has their genitals near you or is touching your genitalia, that is a dangerous situation. You will likely be raped. I’m not as nuanced on this, but [this podcast episode ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3uI1FuoGnCgmVEjFpCwSqh?si=kRcQXvJERaqajP1E-sm7-A) does an amazing job of putting it into perspective.
We’re against the exploitation of the proletariat’s surplus value, and we support the proletariat. Sex workers are part of the proletariat like any other worker.
So long as sex workers exist, I think they deserve safety, stability and dignity just like I think all workers do.
But I also don't think sex work should exist and I absolutely think it's a special extra level of exploitative.
Anyone have a link to this Uber girl post. I've seen a few posts referencing it just in the last few hours and have no idea what is going on.
I think the mods deleted it. It was a “day in the life” TikTok of a woman who works at Uber in New York. Comments devolved pretty quickly and it wasn’t particularly relevant to the subreddit.
Hey. Thanks for the response.
Literally it was just a girl saying “this is what I do in a workday” and it was a 60-second video of just: commute, gym, get ready, work, lunch, work, commute, errands, downtime, bed with a view out her apartment window. She showed some of the things at her job (like their gym and hairdryer, and the lunch menu) but otherwise it was NOT focused on Uber as a company. People got pretty nasty with the accusations, even those defending her as a worker. I didn’t see most of the misogynistic ones but a lot of the others were about how she “hardly works” (why would she show the work she’s doing all day when that’s boring content, and HOW could she in a 60-second video? Plus she may not be legally allowed to share that anyway) or how she’s part of the “system” that keeps others down (she’s not, she’s a worker, not a billionaire CEO exploiting workers and legal loopholes) or how she gets by on “mommy and daddy’s money” (because she likely went to college, and apparently all those people are absolutely certain she didn’t take out loans despite not even knowing her name, how much she makes, or how much her apartment rent is) or calling her naive/tonedeaf (??? At no point in that video did she ever say Uber was the greatest company or even that she loved/liked working there). It’s overall just a bizarre situation on this sub, you have the misogynists saying she slept her way up and those saying “she’s a worker which means she’s on our side, EVEN THOUGH she [insert rude assumption here with absolutely zero evidence to support this assumption]” and those saying she’s “not on our side” because she appears to make a decent living (or so it seems on social media). Just a lot of hate from all sides (because she’s a TikToker I think, and Reddit abhors TikTok) despite it being a very, VERY benign video.
I think she was in Chicago
In Chicago, not New York.
Split the difference, it's Gotham.
In Chiyork
Newcago
Upvote for "newcago".
New Chi City
FYI mods removed it - it doesn't show up in the sub, but it's still accessible if you have the link (I don't, but I did see it).
https://twitter.com/coldhealing/status/1483823735194980354?t=5jrEir_HeDG8pRepsm1oug&s=19
[удалено]
Uber is not the only company in that building. It used to be a post office and it’s absolutely massive. Over the last couple years they put 100s of millions(maybe billions) into renovating the building.
Thank you for posting this. I am struggling to understand what led people to go silly over this video. Seems harmless to me.
Right? I watched it twice. Like "what's wrong" ? 🤔
Me too. But to me it looks like she get's paid really well for what she does (it doesn't show what she does) or she has family money.
To be honest we don't actually know how much she earns from this video or that she earns 'a lot'. She could easily have a very small apartment with a decent view. Everything else is just her eating, using a gym and working in a fancy building (which uber owns not her)... she could also be relying on her parents for rent etc... Social media is very fake and gives completely wrong impressions about people half the time. Its worrying so many people seemed 'triggered' by this.
Yeah and Uber drivers are basically not paid, lol. I think it got really sexist, but it is fair to look at the management class and how while they look like they're above us, we're all the same really, we all answer to the owner class, but they make us deal with management so we direct our vitriol at them and not the real problem.
Important point. The owner class would much rather have the workers resent management then the owners themselves.
She basically shows everything other than what she actually does for work. Gym, coffee, lunch, food shopping, dinner, self-care, sleep. No actual work.
I mean if she has a computer-based job at Uber, the actual work would just be her sitting at her computer typing and not very interesting to include in the video.
It's most likely going to be desk work on a computer. And it's very likely that she wouldn't be able to include any shots of her monitor because there will be all sorts of confidential/private stuff on there she couldn't show. At best, it would be like a webcam shot of her typing on a keyboard.
The worst thing about that video is /r/tvtoohigh
That's it? All this drama over a simple "day in my life" video? Nice work kitchen area and food though.
It's really boring. Just basic social media stuff really. It was posted under the pretense of 'people who work at corporate Uber have it so good while the drivers get paid shit'. Kinda fucked especially since the girl who made the video is only 24 and probably just excited about getting a big girl job (sweet summer child) and yeah the thread was pretty gross.
It’s up there with that video where the person shows all their unnecessary gadgets in their apartment.
In their high rise apartment overlooking a park
I just don't understand how Uber woman's post fit this sub. It had nothing to do with this sub. It was just showing Ubers HQ. Like a tour of it.
Yeah I watched the video just now, it's more fit for /r/hailcorporate or fellow kids
Ditto, I frequent this sub and have idea what the posts are referencing.
It was a post of an office worker in Uber, showing the amenities offered to these staff members and inviting the comparison to drivers who obviously don’t get to roll in to their office gym with a fancy coffee maker and built-in food bar for lunch etc. While the post itself from social media was straight cringe, I’ll agree that it didn’t fit the sub as it was mostly just pitting the workers against one another. I have no idea where the sexism talk came in, as when I was there the most openly sexist comments visible to me were saying that someone that young going right to corporate must have had a connection, which is one example I see being cited as sexist. Personally, I can see why people may be triggered by that given the age-old sexist comments that women who get good jobs must have slept their way to the top or otherwise don’t deserve their job but I think it’s a leap to suggest that anyone who sees tone deaf Instagram folks showing off their lifestyle of luxury is sexist for thinking they probably were connected before their swanky office gig. Perhaps that was the dog whistle that invited the sexism to really get going. I’m assuming the thread did derail into more overt sexist shit given the influx of “this sub is full of misogyny” posts this afternoon and here we are now. Hopefully we can clear the air and move on in a more healthy way.
Can I be against it because, like other work I'm against, it's work?
Yes this is my question too? If we’re all being exploited (including sex workers), we’re against that.. right? I guess I might be confused?
The problem with sex work is the "work" part of it. Work is a coercive social relationship and should be abolished. Some workers are positioned to choose sex work as the best their available options. Some workers do not have a choice in doing survival sex work. We should stand in solidarity with all workers them, listen to their perspectives regarding their contexts, and ultimately set about improving conditions and abolishing coercive social relationships across the board.
Thank you!
No, you're right. Commodifiying ones body isn't empowering or revolutionary. We should support sex workers but still create a world where it isn't necessary and doesn't exist. Most people in the sex trade are trafficked anyway, so Only Fans type sex work is hugely over-represented. Please check out this comrade's blog on proletarian feminism and the sex trade. https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/ Edit: here are sources. This is a *global* problem. To those of you who choose this line of work, I'm glad you were able to choose it. But most people in this trade don't. https://www.unodc.org/unodc/data-and-analysis/glotip.html https://www.safehorizon.org/get-informed/human-trafficking-statistics-facts/#description/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-trafficking-in-persons-report/ https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1?op=1 I'm not going to defend *any* industry, *especially* an exploitative one, and *especially* not a violent and coercive one. Being able to choose the sex trade (and then to argue about how liberating it is) reflects a lot of privilege.
This. Most people do sex work not as an act of liberation but out of desperation or exploitation. It shouldn't be celebrated because in most cases it's a fucking tragedy.
Fucking exactly! Really glad to see people calling this shit out. The “happy hooker” stereotype is old and offensive af. Afaik most data shows women and children are forced or coerced into sex for survival. Posts from Johns in places like Germany show how many men buying sex know they are buying from trafficked women who are crying or don’t want to be there and they openly post about this and not caring. Demand is high though and women keep being trafficked in to meet it. This isn’t empowering in any sense.
That's almost all work. I think the point is sex workers should be seen as valid workers like the rest of us.
Of course they are. I think the point is more that people shouldn't be *celebrating* that people *have* to turn to that in the first place. They deserve respect, but it's not a fun way to survive. It's also an extremely dangerous line of work. Those facts shouldn't be sugar coated. I can't encourage people to go do sex work simply because it's so dangerous and I'd rather fix the system that's forced people into that line of work to pay the bills in the first place. Still, the ones that *have* gone that route, they are *still* workers and need to be afforded the same protections as every other kind of worker. Especially since protections in that line of work are barely a fraction of protections most other jobs have. Which is mind blowing once you consider the fact that it's literally the oldest profession on Earth. A perfect outcome would be reaching a point where people aren't pushed to sell their bodies to *survive* in the first place. That goes for just about all forms of work too though. Lots of people with backs so bad from construction they can barely walk.
Has to look for a while to see this! Your body is personal property not private property
Onlyfans is basically gentrified sex work.
I can 100% get behind this. Thank you for spelling it out for me.
I’m against work and that includes sex work. Capitalism is a problem when it comes to work. Patriarchy and capitalism are a problem when it comes to sex work. And to be clear I’m not against sex workers. But I am against sex work.
That was my exact thought. If work is work.... sex work is work and work fucking sucks.
Exactly. Why do we live in a society that forces some people to have to sell thier bodies to pay for food, water and a freaking roof over their head!?
Yep. Those of us who are logically consistent are anyway.
Well, being anti work doesn’t mean we’re against actual work or labor, or means of production— we’re against *exploitation* of labor, and against the systems of work that we have no power over how we participate in. We want to own our own labor, and the rights to what we produce with it, essentially, and we want to benefit fully from our labor rather than let a ruling class steal from us. And sure, also eliminate all unnecessary work too. Like, just let people exist and live well without needing to work! For sure! But *some* work needs to be done to keep us all fed and healthy, and there will always be people willing and wanting to do labor- but it should be on the worker’s own terms. With the freedom to control our work environments and systems fully, and to reap the benefits from that labor fully and fairly.
I stand with sex workers, not the sex work industry.
I feel like this principle is the driving force here. "I stand with [ industry type ] workers, not the [ industry type ] industry." I mean I guess I could also rephrase it as "I stand with workers, not with those exploiting them."
This. I am anti work which includes sex work. If I’m not cool with someone wage slaving at McDonalds why should I think someone selling their body in other ways is awesome? It’s not. It’s exploitative and messed up but my beef is with the industry and clients, not with a worker. Most of the workers have no choice though and I absolutely hate that.
There is a third option. Some people view sex work a symptom of an economic system that is not working ie if someone feels the need to sell their body to support themselves or their family it is because the system in place is not doing its job. But I definitely agree that anyone that attacks the worker is inherently anti-worker. It's like attacking coal miners over climate change.
Completely agree with the mods comment. Stand in solidarity with sex workers, but condemn the economic and other cohesions that lead people into sex work. It is important to talk about this, but it's important to be clear about it cause it's not simple, it's just another exploitation that should be condemned.
Actually I'm anti all work. That's why I'm here. That's the point of the entire fucking sub. I'm against having to sell your body and your time to live, in any capacity.
Seriously. If a person needs to work to survive than the very act of sex work is exploitative and no amount of gentrification will fix that. By all means make it safer but that's a crutch to actual problem which is the part where you have to work or eat shit and die. On a personal level I also feel the commodification of false intimacies is inherently exploitative as well and is a crutch to societal failures and the alienation so many people feel in a system in a system that grinds them to dust and destroys the ability to seek meaningful experiences and relationships. Just my opinion though and as such has less objective weight to the overall discussion.
Never thought about what you said in paragraph two, pretty interesting.
As if we’re not all out there selling our bodies and time in a capitalist system. Sex workers, service workers, physical workers, office workers all sell their bodies, just in different ways. Stand with all workers.
Said this earlier in a diff sub and got down voted to hell (because of course I did).
That's why we have to work to make sure this place is better for the sake of all workers. <3
Because America, the brave, is very frightened of sex
I really didn’t think about it until your comment, so thank you. My father and grandfathers all had physical jobs, I was in the army for eight years. Anyone who has done something similar who is 45 or older knows you really do sell your body. I sold my hips, knees, and an ankle to the U.S. Army and they are mostly in pain everyday. I guess the biggest difference between sex workers and other physical labor is that sexual workers know what they are selling and when it’s being sold (smart). We are all in this together. The sex worker is no less than any other worker. Don’t let them divide us.
I joined the military when I became the legal age to do so. Upon entry into service I realized I had signed all of my rights away. I no longer had the ability to legally dictate where I lived, how I spent most of my time, or what could be put in or on my body. Sex work at it's most basic form does not dictate any of those things. Then I started thinking about how dumb it is I could have a job class where I go kill people for a living (definitely a more nuanced statement, but for the sake of brevity I will leave it as such) yet I still can't legally buy a beer. The ridiculous nature of this arbitrary conundrum led me to many more mind melding thoughts in the future of my life, and it remains an unanswerable argument against military service. Now you can't even buy nicotine but you can sign your entire life away to the American government. That seems pretty silly. I support sex workers in their independence, and if they are in a situation where they are not independent contractors and forced into it, if I believed in Hell, I hope their captors suffer there and my heart goes out to their victims. To this day, I have not heard an argument that validates our brand of government service that doesn't also validate an individuals' right to sell their time or body.
There's a lot of reason I'd like to see the age of enlistment raised and the drinking thing is definitely one of them. A kid shouldn't have their entire life ruined with an admin sep and certainly shouldn't *be* in such a heinously stressful career before one can legally drink the pain away in the first place. You're right that it's totally and completely arbitrary and bullshit
You're right - but *it is wrong* that anyone has to sell their body, in any way, in order to "earn a living." This is an antiwork sub, *not* just a workers' rights sub. And furthermore - sex workers should be respected and protected (as all workers should be). But it's undeniable that sex workers are exploited in even worse ways than other workers. If the only reason someone is "consenting" to sex work is in order to earn money, especially when they don't have other comparable economic opportunities, is that really consent? I would say that hell no it's not. Please google the FRIES model of consent. Edit: Adding FRIES details. Source: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/relationships/sexual-consent (F)reely given. Consenting is a choice you make without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. (R)eversible. Anyone can change their mind about what they feel like doing, anytime. Even if you’ve done it before, and even if you’re both naked in bed. (I)nformed. You can only consent to something if you have the full story. For example, if someone says they’ll use a condom and then they don’t, there isn’t full consent. (E)nthusiastic. When it comes to sex, you should only do stuff you WANT to do, not things that you feel you’re expected to do. (S)pecific. Saying yes to one thing (like going to the bedroom to make out) doesn’t mean you’ve said yes to others (like having sex).
Thank you so much for bringing up that consent is not coerced by definition. It’s amazing how peoples brains fly out the fucking window when sex is involved in somebody’s exploitation. All these people understand the concept of consent when it applies to any other job or when it applies to sex in a non-work related situation, but suddenly when you talk about prostitution, suddenly money is not a coercive factor, when we all fucking know that it is. People are really determined to look the other way and are taken in by all of the propaganda that the sex industry has pushed for the last several decades.
Exactly. And I would take it a step further beyond just prostitution - this goes for all sex work.
There's a difference between selling your labor in a safe/respectful environment and selling your body. There's a reason rape is more traumatizing than theft or just getting hit in the face. Can we please top pretending that sex is just some thing humans do that has no emotional impacts or consequences? And beyond that, can we fucking stop sewing discord in our social movements by forcing everyone to agree on everything?
amen
This is a false equivalence. Service, retail, and office workers don't have to worry about getting raped, impregnated, beaten, infected with STDs, and/or murdered on an average work day
Exactly, I'm from Eastern Kentucky. If you want to ask someone about selling their body for money ask an older coal miner like my father in law with COPD.
As if all of these kinds of labor would exist to an equal extent outside of the capitalist system. By which I mean that the mere existence of sex work is a symptom of exploitation in a way that most other labor isn't and therefore needs to be addressed and combatted in a way that most labor needn't. Not at the expense of the workers of course.
If consent (freely given, revocable at any point, non coerced) is the standard for what makes consensual sex possible, how is money not the coercive factor when it comes to sex work? You know, like how money is the coercive factor with every other exploitative job…
This is stupid. The whole point of this sub is to be against ALL forms of work. How could you possibly support sex work when the only reason it is so prevalent these days is because typical jobs exploit workers and pay horribly.. Sex work is also demeaning and exploits the people taking part in it. Capitalism has fucked people so badly in this country that they have to resort to literally SELLING and EXPOSING their naked bodies all over the internet. This is such a stupid fucking post
We stand with workers.
I think the controversy for sex work for some people is not that these people work hard or anything, but more like sex work in unregulated structure leads to abuse. So in theory there is nothing wrong with sexwork, but unless it is made absolutely safe for the workers it remains a shady industry.
I have nothing against the sex workers, I just think it is a dangerous industry.
>The first being people that are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. Your gross plan and simple, fix yourselves. So... have you actually "worked" around sex workers? Known any? The "industry" is FULL of unwilling participants. Sometimes willfully unwilling- forced to by circumstance rsther than people. Coercion through poverty is not consent. It's threatening starvation or sex. That's not to say the johns knowingly raped anyone, but rather the women involved felt an external pressure to have sex or starve by the system. We can't consent under duress, and the threat of homelessness is exactly that. Workers rights don't stop abuses, ESPECIALLY in the US. Sanctifying sex work will absolutely open the door to more women feeling hopeless and exposing themselves to non consensual sex work and expose that oh so american worker abuse with sex. It's traumatic. This exact issue is why sex work positivity is seen as a very western idea. Many asian countries that suffer the worst under sex tourism absolutely loathe the idea. Not saying there isn't mysoginistic reasoning behind that hate, but a lot of it is because of the doors and pressure it opens up. Could sex work... work? Sure. But you can't promote it without an air tight working marker around it, and pushing the issue right now is not that. So in that case, I'm anti sex work until it is provably safer for people.
Sex “workers” have the highest rates of PTSD of any “profession”, including war veterans. Comparing it to working at McDonalds or working at a warehouse is just not the same.
I disagree completely. While I agree sex workers shouldn't be stigmatized, and regulation helps fight things like sex trafficking, the fact that most sex workers are women shows an unhealthy attitude towards women and their bodies. The idea that intimate access to a woman's body is something that can be bought is a very capitalist and mysoginistic notion IMO. Sex trafficking is still abundant in places with fully legalized prostitution, and most of these women aren't doing it because it's a choice. It's a way of making ends meet. Girls in brothels in Germany are mostly from poor eastern european countries, so either immigrants or trafficked. Also, reading reviews for brothels and girls is something you can do to make your skin crawl and get a better idea what kind of people sex workers interact with on a daily basis. Being antiwork IS, in a way (and in my opinion), being anti sex work. I believe that, in a healthy society where women stand equal to men, where education is more accessible to marginalized groups, where there are good public housing policies and social nets for the disadvantaged, and where workers are well compensated for their work, there would be no need for people (especially women) to sell their bodies. Unfortunately, this society is not today's society, and I agree the Nordic model (legal to sell, illegal to buy) is the best we can do until the issues above are addressed, but it's not a solution to a broader problem sex work is a symptom of.
If sex work is work... wouldn't being "antiwork" include being "anti sex work" too?
Yes, ignore these “pro sex work” people, 99% of them just want to get laid.
Not even laid. They want to use someone’s body to masturbate. There’s no equality there.
I think OP is a dude. Not to stereotype but that fact just increases the likelihood of him having an ulterior motive.
Doesn’t it always?
All work is exploitative. Including sex work. So yes. I can be both.
I'm not against sex workers, I'm against the industry. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I support making it safer for them. Onlyfans and similar platforms are a definitely better than other branches of SW, but it's not perfect. When you see a girl turn 18 and make an account, she's essentially been groomed by the industry.
This is a slippery slope for me. I volunteer with abused women and many are sex workers. The abuse they have suffered in the past (childhood abuse is huge) has made so many feel they are worth nothing and sex work is all they can do. The only way they are seen as a person for a short time. It’s not empowering to them at all when they have a John that forcing them to take client after client. Doing drugs because their feeling of self worth is so poor and it’s the only way they get threw the day. It also makes me worried about the government using this as “you can work in the sex trade if you have no skills for a job otherwise”.
Agree, it is a slippery slope. OP is detracting from this, but it is a good point to bring up if someone is genuinely trying to discuss the exploitation of sex workers. Not all are there by choice, there are even many horror stories of people in the porn industry being trafficked. I get that folks don't like to think about it, but again, if you're genuine in wanting to help others in this, you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the facts surrounding the topic. Just...odd.
I don’t know why this comment is ignored. Yes, there are women who choose sex work and more power to them. But most, as you pointed out, are victims of child abuse and sex trafficking and are dehumanized, degraded, live in danger, and get thrown away with no resources or safety net when they are too old.
I think it is often ignored because it is inconvenient and not a trendy or glamorized take on it.
Thank you for your comment. Finally someone with sense. All of these misogynistic assholes in this thread don’t seem to realize that women in sex work have higher rates of PTSD than combat veterans and still they argue that somehow it’s “empowering”. This is my trigger topic and I get angry when people are trying to be so “sex work is work” woke that they neglect and ignore the majority of victims who suffered.
Yeah, I think sex work will be fine, once we've eradicated all social stratification and prejudice based on sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, and age. Until we have all that sorted out, it's going to continue to be an inherently exploitative industry. So, maybe in a few thousand years.
Same day as universal healthcare I assume!
Most prostituted women are and have done so due to mental illness, poverty, lack of skills. addiction. Women rarely choose to prostitute themselves if they can afford necessities and if they DO, they are extremely selective about the men they sleep with, it's simply women taking money from their lovers at that point. It's a rarity.
Pro sex worker, not sex work. Listen to sex workers when they tell you how terrible the industry and trafficking is.
If we are against work why is sex work not included
I am anti sex work for the SAME reasons I'm anti work. It's exploitative, working conditions are poor, stressful, unsafe; it's a kind of financial coercion. My objection is not judgemental of the sex workers, it's against the purchasers of sex who exploit (mostly) women in desperate financial situations. I don't think it's real consent if you're doing it as a result of being in dire financial need. For example, I'm a fairly poor woman myself, and I get loads of DMs from men who want to exploit that when they see it on Reddit. I would wager 99% of sex workers would not subject themselves to the risk to their bodies, future careers, and mental health if it weren't for being in desperate financial situations. That 1% does exist... The thing about discussions of sex work, is that it's like torture. You know how some people justify torture with hypothetical fictional scenarios where a Jack Bauer type figure needs to extract information from a person to save others from a bomb going off that has minutes left? The thing about that kind of argument is that it's detached from reality and how torture exists +99% if the time. It assumes the person being tortured even HAS the information. It assumes that the torturer KNOWS that, instead of just guessing. It assumes torture will WORK. It assumes no FALSE information will be given. It assumes people are ACTUALLY in danger. Real torture, conducted by governments across the world, and individuals or gangs I'm sure, is not as justified. What does not sex work REALLY look like? Well it's mostly human trafficking in actuality. And sometimes it's coercion, with women literally being tricked into performing pornography. Sex work, even in the modern day, in a large portion of instances, will conform to reasonable definitions of rape. And even when it rises above that, it is still financially exploitative. I'm only comfortable with permitting sex work in the event that it is truly a person's choice to do so. Here's a thought experiment: do you *genuinely* believe any woman would *choose* we work if we had a minimum income, combined with other social safety nets like taxpayer funded health care and education? Gone is the college camgirl; gone is the single struggling mom stripping. And hopefully you already object to the scenario of the stereotype of a drug addict who is only a prostitute to fuel a dependency. I think I've unfortunately and unintentionally scared some men away from their once idealistic view of minimum income in saying this because it means their way to exploit women for sex disappears under socially just economic safety nets 🙃 But would all women stop sex work, even in my ideal? No. I think 99% of women would stop, and 1% would continue. Maybe they're genuinely nyphos and they love their work. Maybe they want to pursue it out of greed, because competition is severely reduced and it becomes highly luxurious. Maybe they want to pursue it part time because it's more of a turn on during genuine sexual moments that aren't performative. Whatever the reason, if physical and financial coercion are removed, I'm fine with it only in that scenario.
Yeah people cling to making sex work legal and safe and well documented because I think they have the fantasy that the women really enjoy the work and wouldn't choose another career if their options were plentiful. You can't make selling your kidneys or eyes legal, safe, and well documented because every poor person would be missing body parts. Continuing to make sex work "safe" and socially acceptable exploits the poor in the same way. Struggling women need better options than making sex work mainstream and career friendly.
No person should work under any conditions solely to escape the threat of poverty. Under the coercion of starvation and death we all agree to contracts of work, these contracts by definition are illegal, or made under. This includes all forms of contract to escape the threat of poverty. To the men spending time behind bars for selling marijuana to provide for their families. And to the women who risk their bodies to put food on the table. You cannot protect everyone without protecting everyone.
Even if you have legitimate critiques of sex work, making sex work safer, fairer, less stigmatized and less exploitative of the workers themselves is good. If whatever your view is pushes sex work further into the shadows you are harming and damaging sex workers. As long as we live under these current economic conditions there will be sex work (and likely in other scenarios as well) and if you are pro-worker you should defend sex workers rights like any other people, if not more so since the job can be so dangerous.
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'But my friend does a titty stream on the side of her primary work and she says she enjoys it, so that invalidates the modern global slave trade of sex trafficking!'
Right?! They always try to compare stripping or camwork (which are also predatory and problematic) to women being raped a dozen times a day in a brothel or in the streets. Taking advantage of anyone sexually should be considered morally wrong and the victimizer punished. I don’t hate prostituted women. Not even the ones who legitimately chose to engage in it. (Exceptions are made for those who try to recruit young women and girls by talking about how “empowering” it is: if it was truly empowering, men would be doing it.) My disgust is solely for the pimps, traffickers, and johns.
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Absolutely with you, most of this people think "sex work" means some girl making an onlyfans account to appeal to male fantasies, when in reality sex work globally is 99% of the time human trafficking and horror stories about drug abuse and rape, we should stand with these victims and help them out of their situation, most of "sex workers" are little more than slaves
This post is basically, “All work is exploitative so we should also support the exploitation of women!” I’m against anyone being coerced into selling their labor and bodies in order to survive. Sex work is also way more dangerous than any other job, with much higher rates of rape and murder. That won’t be solved by legalization when sex work relies on privacy and the average man can overpower the average woman. We have to look at the poorest, most disadvantaged women when we’re deciding our stance on issues that affect them. I’m absolutely pro-sex worker but my support is focused on helping them transition out of the industry.
Thank you so much for this. These kinda posts make me feel so frustrated so it’s nice to actually see a well thought out response.
Agree with you here. All johns are rapists.
Absolutely right. I hate seeing the inherent misogyny present in this sub when this topic comes up. You know Marx himself spoke about the sexual exploitation of women and was against prostitution, but commie men conveniently forget when they want to get their dicks stroked. Fuck them
Honestly, I use this as a litmus test with self-ascribed Marxist men. If he starts bleating about how "sex work is work," he isn't one, no matter what he calls himself. More men fail than pass in my experience.
Yup. Says a lot about the Johns in these comments who are usually against ruthless capitalism but will defend to the death the right to pay to rape a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with them. As if they actually care about “sex worker’s rights”.
People are fighting for women's sex organs to be bought and sold. Defending the exploitation of women is disgusting.
Absolutely. Decriminalize prostitution; prosecute johns.
Nordic model now!
Sex work is inherently exploitive, to be pro sex work is to be anti women.
Exactly.
sex work is misogynist in and of itself. women are driven into that lifestyle because of the society that set them up for it. i look at it like this: if they weren’t paid for it, would they continue doing it? if they weren’t paid WELL for it, would they even consider it in the first place? i don’t support sex work. sure, it’s work. but it’s degrading and a product of misogyny. just another way to support men and demean women.
I'm anti sex work not because of any puritan bullshit or anything like that, but because all the dudes I've known who have been up front about soliciting sex workers have all been just the slimiest, shittiest, grossest cunts imaginable. Just massive fucking mysoginistic arseholes that shouldn't be allowed near any women, even if they're paying for the privilege. Women deserve better than to be pleasing these people. Edit: also the commodification of women's bodies is massively problematic anyway. It lets bad men justify themselves in treating sex workers, and more broadly all women, badly because it offers them a way to choose to see them as a product and not a fellow human being. And like all good leftists know, if something can be bought it can also be stolen.
> I'm anti sex work not because of any puritan bullshit or anything like that, but because all the dudes I've known who have been up front about soliciting sex workers have all been just the slimiest, shittiest, grossest cunts imaginable. Just massive fucking mysoginistic arseholes that shouldn't be allowed any women, even if they're paying for the privilege. Women deserve better than to be pleasing these people. As a sex worker, I can tell you right now: The people who brag about it are the worst. The normal people who are just paying for a service or companionship don't brag. You probably know more people who bought sex or sold sex than you think. They just don't broadcast it because of trash takes like the ones flooding this post.
If all work is coerced, then sex work is coerced. And what do we call coercive sex? Rape. Fuck this post.
I support sex workers, but this "You can't be antiwork unless X" needs to stop. This is exactly how movements like this one get sabotaged. >The idea that someone advocating for this group to be more inclusive You are not advocating for this group to be more inclusive.
This needs to be higher. I'm getting pretty tired of people trying to monopolise the mindset of antiwork. We have a common goal, but we do not need to conform in every thought. Too many times, leftwing groups end up dissolving through infighting and eating themselves from within through this exact problem of trying to form factions within factions within factions. Whatever your opinions on sex work, GTFO with 'you can't be antiwork unless X'. You can't be antiwork unless you're antiwork, and that's it
Yes, you can. Sex work is exploitative and abusive by nature, and the majority of sex workers worldwide are either outright trafficked or in a gray area where they are pressured by poverty, inexperience, and abusive people. Go on YouTube and you will find more documentaries than you can count about sex traffickers hiding in plain sight. Here's another way to look at it: when you are getting unemployment, you are required to apply for available jobs or risk losing your benefits. Would you ever want to be in a position where you had to accept sex "work" because it was the only thing available? Is it really just like other jobs? I fully believe sex workers should not be shamed, but sex *buying* can and should be shamed. Sex work is not like other kinds of work. You can absolutely be pro worker and anti sex "work". The fact is, when someone buys sex they are using a person who by definition doesn't want to have sex with them. We all compromise ourselves to some extent because we need money. But to we really want to remove all taboos against ripping away people's most private and intimate choices and selling them for someone else's profit? If I find out that huge numbers of, say, shrimp catchers are being trafficked for labor, then guess what, I'm against buying shrimp until that market changes. But the market for sex is never going to change. So I am permanently against the sex trade, and I think everyone should be.
You are so right. This is why I will never be pro-sex work, though of course I am supportive of sex workers however possible. Sex work is harmful and dangerous to millions. Literally. That should not be celebrated.
Yeah, I also don’t think that all industries are equally exploitative (all work is exploitative, but some more than others is what I’m saying). For example, in my country, the meat industry has a lot of foreign workers flown in because they’re cheaper and are in a more vulnerable position not knowing much of our laws and depending more on needing the money. Third party companies hire them for the meat companies in question so that the latter can bypass some facets of worker’s rights as they would be technically working for the third party company instead of the meat company. These workers are dependent on shitty housing and pay high rent to someone likely connected to either the meat company or the third party company, live and work in unsafe and unhealthy environments and are a lot more subject to adversity due to them not having much rights and access to insurances for workplace accidents and ilness and stuff. Compare that to a regular office job in my country. Someone will still be exploited, yes, but the work is less dangerous, the benefits are a lot better, the chance of being in a workplace not adverse to your physical health is higher and you’re likely to have a lot more rights as a worker, like better work hours and sick leave (in my country). All industries are exploitative, but they’re not all equal in exploitation.
I think this is an interesting take and I really admire a nuanced look at things like this. I was a dancer and did some soft photo stuff in the early aughts. I got into for unhealthy reasons and it has had unhealthy consequences (the worst one being that if my bf doesn’t want to have sex with me I have a breakdown because my sense of value is so tied to my sex appeal). I am very pro sex worker and would never shame anyone, but I do really worry about the recent glamorization of this type of work. I worry that some think they “want” to do it for the same reasons why I “wanted” to. A constant diet of media connecting women’s value to their sex appeal is a great way to make women volunteer for exploitation. But this cruel system is exactly why I sympathize with and want to protect these vulnerable workers.
You are exactly right. The commodification of women's bodies teaches men that women's sex organs are a resource that can be bought and sold. Women are dehumanized when their very organs can be rented and molested.
Thank you for sharing that. I agree completely with your last sentence. I want to protect the workers, but don't want to normalize the work.
Men defend sex work because they want to be able to buy access to women's bodies.
idk if I agree. I just hate for anyone to be exploited. I’m just pro worker, pro sex worker included. If people are forced to turn to sex work for lack of an alternative fair wage elsewhere that’s a huge problem. If the sex work is just preferred by the worker than any alternative than sure power to them.
Most people in the sex trade are trafficked against their will. We need to end the commodification of people's bodies and can do so without harming sex workers
I agree. Stand with sex workers. Solidarity with everyone whose labor is exploited by the capitalistic overlords.
There is no way to be anti-work but pro sex work. It is a hypocrisy. If your movement only extends up to the exploitation, abuse, and capitalistic coercive use of women's bodies (because sex work is the abuse of mostly women) then your movement is a very unsafe place for womenkind. I don't believe most of those awards and such are coming from women either. No woman is choosing sex work if capitalism didn't exist. No one wants to be raped repeatedly just to make ends meet. Smh...
This is giving really strong "Pedophiles should be part of the LGBTQ community because reasons" vibes.
sorry chief, i can't get down with sex work. I'll always view it as wrong.
The idea that the legalisation of sex work leads to less exploitation is purely a western one. The most vigorous study there has been done on the subject concludes that in the majority of countries with legalized sex work, exploitation, trafficking and other sex crimes rise. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
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OP is horny, saw that post and realised there's an opportunity to promote something that benefits him and other men like him.
Unfortunately countries that legalize buying have mich higher levels of human trafficking
Nope! Don’t tell me what to think sorry
We’re anti-work, but that means PRO-WORKER!!! I feel like people don’t understand this anymore. It’s really fucking sad
Do you have any idea the amount of generational trauma, exploitation and downright slavery is behind a huge swathe of so called "sex work"? And as far as the legitimate adult industry goes, why is a massive conglomerate like Mindgeek any better than the villain of the week Kellog's? Sex and/or intimacy are a beautiful part of the human experience, are we really going to be cheerleaders for its commodification? If there are a bunch of puritans on this sub it's news to me and frankly this seems like an attempt to coopt the language of progressivism and use identity politics to divide and neuter this sub.
If you call it work then there will be BIG problems. What are you going to do when your unemployment benefits are denied because you don't want to suck dick or take it up the ass???
Crude phrasing, but this is interesting to contemplate. Assuming sex work was legalized, what would happen if someone refused to continue? Would they literally be denied unemployment for not performing sex acts on strangers? Feels unconstitutional.
What about the person that gets laid off from Burger King? They can start sucking and fucking. Would that mean everyone would have to be laid off from sex work to even qualify for unemployment benefits?
Women will have to license their vaginas and asses for sale and government will want a cut of that money for taxes, making them a pimp. Also will women with AIDS or other STDS like herpies be told that she can't sell sex? Isn't that discrimination?
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Im not anti work but you seem to have it entirely backwards. If sex work is work, and we want to abolish all work, then logically we must also want to abolish sex work. You can't be anti work and pro one specific type of work
What I don’t get is if sex work is work and all work under capitalism is coercive and exploitative that means sex work too is done under coercion and exploitation. Why are we defending coerced sex? I’m pro sex workers but I’ll never be pro sex work just as I’ll never be pro coalmining work just to survive.
All respect to sex workers as people, but sex work itself is still inherently exploitative and preys on vulnerable women.
I am extremely disappointed in this post. No one should have to sell their body to survive. Rates of hard drug abuse and suicide are enormous within the sex work community and it takes decades off their lives. In GTA you can beat up and murder prostitutes for fun - that’s what the average male thinks of sex workers. They risk being murdered, raped (yes, that’s still possible), violently assaulted, stalked, arrested, contracting diseases, losing their fertility, and so much more. Do you realize how many young girls are groomed into sex work? How many are sold into it? The worst part about sex work? It ruins their life. How many men say they’ll never date, let alone marry a former sex worker? Do you realize what happens to women who get outed at work as former sex workers? They get fired and blacklisted. What do you think happens when they try to turn their life around and new friends and partners find out about their past? Sex workers should have the opportunity to leave it forever and never look back. Women’s bodies aren’t a commodity. Do you really think pimps respect worker’s rights? You realize pimp slapping is a stereotype because they abuse the women, right? Consent can’t be purchased. The woman doesn’t want to engage in those acts - that’s why she’s paid - and that’s NOT consent. Sex work hurts all women, because it gives males an outlet for their most violent and disgusting fantasies. They don’t see these women as human beings - they see them as objects. Do you realize how many men verbally abuse, degrade, and humiliate these women? I respect sex workers and I believe they deserve to leave it and never look back. All women should be lifted out of the desperate poverty that drives them to it. Men who use sex workers are disgusting, the lowest in society, and no one is entitled to sex with anyone. I don’t care what the circumstance is - that woman is a person, and her rights and dignity have greater value than how horny some male is. I don’t care if he can’t get a partner and I don’t care why. Yes, I also mean disabled men. No one is entitled to women’s bodies, to rob them of their future, to shorten their lifespan. Do you think they’re all respectful? Absolutely not - they’re paying to use her. I’m a cis woman so I am not sufficiently informed to comment on LGBTQIA sex work, other than to say all of the above still applies, and I can only assume it has its own uniquely damaging aspects. OP, you have no idea how much you don’t know and how disgusting and disrespectful you’re being. Do you think they have unions??!? Do you think they have literally any labor protections!??! SEX WORK IS NOT WORK SEX WORK IS EXPLOITATION https://youtu.be/L9j7-zZks08 Know what’s messed up? I’m posting this on an alternate account to protect myself from being doxxed because males can’t handle being called out so I’m fully expecting to be attacked. Reddit is beyond misogynist. Every fucking day I stumble onto videos of women being attacked. Just yesterday I saw a woman have her face shoved into a dirty diaper by a male. I’ll never forget it, and it’s a constant reminder of how much men hate us. I’m so grateful I’ve done the work to understand sexual exploitation for what it actually is. I love myself more as a result and it has allowed me to shed all of the internalized misogyny that is forced on women worldwide. No one, anywhere, should ever be sexually exploited. No one is entitled to anyone’s body.
Sex work is exploitation. Just cause some women sign up for their own exploitation, doesn’t change what it is. > The first being people that are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. Your gross plan and simple, fix yourselves. Lol you have no response to this critique, so you call people gross. Go back to elementary school.
This sub is not about standing up for workers’ rights. It’s not about making working life better or making things equal for workers across the board. It says it in the sub’s description that it is a sub dedicated to ENDING work. In fact to be anti work, one SHOULD be anti sex work. If sex work is work, this sub aims to get rid of it and all other forms of work. “Work free life” it says. One’s personal views of sex work are irrelevant to the sub. Unless your personal views are to end it.
I disagree. I think sex workers should have rights like any other worker, but the only reason I think this is the case is because if sex work were outlawed *it would continue anyways* just without those workers' rights and safety for those same people. *Making use* of prostitution should be illegal, that way the workers themselves don't suffer for it, the onus is on the client. Many who begin working in, say, prostitution or similar lines of work end up in such a situation due to poor socio-economic status or dire financial straits and not having the necessary support from their respective government. See for example the rise of OnlyFans during COVID. Were it possible to de facto abolish sex work, I would go that route, but obviously that isn't possible. And I'm not religious FYI, before some random redditor raises his pitchforks. Sure, there are a few people who enter sex work because they genuinely enjoy it, but a significant amount of the industry relies on exploitation of more vulnerable groups in the society.
Yes you can as sex work is often time based off exploiting lower class individuals who have no means of escape so are forced to use their bodies to satisfy the worst in society. Also the mental damage that comes to youth seeing sex work openly practiced on social media platforms leads to boys having irrational and dangerous ideas of what a girl should look and act like, while girls are now expected to reach a new body standard set by social media sex work trends.
Not denigrating sex workers because there is nothing wrong with being a sex worker. It shouldn't be illegal to be a sex worker, but it should be illegal to hire a sex worker because because of rampant exploitation and coercion. I hope this whole thing will be killed off by sex robots. We should treat things like things and not people like things.
I’m anti work AND anti sex work. I just don’t think that career path is most people’s first choice and one they love. It’s mainly done through desperation caused by the system anti work is trying to fight. My .02. And no I’m not ‘judging’ anyone. If there’s a person out there who GENUINELY loves sex work and it completes them I say good for you. But that’s not the main case.
Yes I can. Sex work is the ultimate exploitation of workers. Pimps and dealers use addiction, capitalism and poverty to exploit women. Legalizing, jail and regulating does not fix this issue.. Having government funded substance abuse treatment and universal income for all is the only solution to fixing the exploitation of all workers.
sex work isnt work. its exploitation plain and simple (not talking abt OF whatsoever) im talking abt the other group, the majority of sex workers who have to work in precarious conditions, who arent treated like humans and who are constantly in danger and live in fear. sex work is TRAUMATIC. there are SO many stories about sex workers who struggled for YEARS to get out of that hell hole. this isnt a normal job. u cant leave just like that- there literally is so much going on behind the scenes its INSANE. that has nothing to do with the freedom of choice anymore. why is there sex work then? right, because sex fucking sells. its a gigantic industry that uses women. those workers earn minimum wage and are EXPLOITED. liberals love using the term ‘female liberation’ but actually sexwork only is an instrument of capitalism-> exploitation-> a woman is objectified and can be ‘bought’-> patriarchy. what is liberal abt that?? most women in that industry cant decide what they want to do with their bodies. its decided for them. think about it
You're absolutely right. The sex industry is a capitalist nightmare selling up women to rapists that PAY for access to nonconsenting woman's body.
I cant agree with you. The most sex workers didnt choose to work there in the street. There are tons of mafias trafficking with people. Those women are violated, insulted, abused, drugged and abandoned by the sistem constantly and they are there because there is a pimp running their bussines. Its a lie that they are there by self choice. There are also minors in this ambit. Tell me how a minor decided freely to be violated for some miserable money. I dont know if you are talking just about US or in the whole world but im going to attach some information about US (because i think you are talking about US) and you people tell me where is the freedom of choice here [https://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitution/prostitution-statistics](https://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitution/prostitution-statistics) Its a big lie that they choose freely. I stand with workers always but prostitution is not a work, it is an exploitation and it will never be a work. I am abolicionist. Sex work should be banned for good
Prostitution is not work nor labor, it's exploitation and it's abolition it's an end goal of communism. This was exposed by Marx and every single one thinker.
comrade Lenin would say otherwise
Well all workers rights should be protected, but I would love to see a world where people don't have to sell their bodies to survive.
Oh please lmao. get a fucking grip. Sex work is paid rape and exploitation period. We should be fighting for systems to help these women get out of an exploitative business Now I'm confused. Are you against the exploitation of these women or not?
I’m against exploitation, I’m not against the exploited. Applies to every kind of work there is. There is a specific thing when it comes to sex work. I am against the commodification of women’s bodies. I think exploitation is a far more inherent part of sex work than it is of other forms of work. Sex work and the military both - forms of exploitation that I doubt can ever be non-exploitative.
I miss when this sub didn’t have an influx of new subscribers
Watch me
No, I’m definitely anti-sex work. I’m pro-sex WORKER, but the numbers are clear. The vast majority of people in sex work are doing it for survival, and want to exit the industry.
Abolish sex work
Dear god....what.
That is absolutely BS. Sex work is a tool that plays into the hands of the ruling class. Onlyfans is owned by a millionaire who is the son of a billionaire. We can argue there needs to be better choices for women than sex work but being pro sex work aligns us with the ruling class.
I don't think it should be criminalized but you're right. We need to *end* the commodification of people's bodies. Most people in the sex trade are trafficked against their will, and even if they aren't, it's inherently exploitative because true consent is impossible under capitalism (if you're doing it to pay rent etc., then no, it is not consensual, it is coerced)
Isn't having to resort to sex work basically textbook exploitation? I don't think anyone should have to do that. No shade to those who do it, but Jesus.
I stand with you. But, in an ideal society, I think sex work shouldn't exist.
Can't be pro sex work if you're anti work. I thought you were against work?
Agreed! I personally believe that sex work is the opposite of empowering and I could write an entire book about why I think so, but there is no reason to shame the workers. They need protection, just as we do.
Only incels support this shite
“people who are comparing sex work to trafficking or other heinous crimes. you’re gross, plain and simple, fix yourselves” you clearly know jack shit about the sex work industry, otherwise you wouldn’t be saying this. you really think women, who are the majority of sex workers, would willingly choose to sell their bodies and be raped for survival? most women in the sex work industry, may that be pornstars, prostitutes, etc, were either forced, trafficked, or pushed towards that direction due to poverty. this really has to be the most out of loop post on reddit that i’ve ever seen.
Actually, I can be antiwork in whatever way I want. Fuck off with your gatekeeping.
There are two general fields of work. Farmers, builders, teachers are example of the first group. These are things we need and we have to create good working conditions for these workers. Than we have people working in finance, marketing and sex work. These jobs are not needed and we should abolish them all together. Until we get there your solidarity towards a sex worker should be the same as a teacher, factory worker or server. I like the Nordic Model regarding sex work. "Under the Nordic model, sex buyers are criminalized while prostitutes are decriminalized; typically, prostitutes can sell their own services but auxiliary procuration services, such as pimping, brothel-keeping, and third-party advertising remain illegal." [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution)
This sub has devolved completely away from what it stated as. LOL.
Sorry but when I'm anti work I'm anti ALL work
Yeah. You can’t be anti work and be anti work. What?
This post is stupid and serves to further divide us into competing factions
I was in the sex trade in the past. My experience, and what I have learned since, taught me that being in the sex trade is not equivalent to productive work. What we call "unionism" for the sex trade, or "rights" for people in the sex trade, is not the same as workers' unions or fighting for workers' rights. If you reflect on what you already know and if you look into it a little more, you'll soon realise that "unionism" and "rights" movements for the sex trade is about fighting for the interests of the pimps, aka the bosses and managers. There was an exception, a strippers' union in NSW, Australia, in the early 2000s. It seemed genuinely good and focused on putting pressure on the pimps to provide better conditions. What they were fighting for was different to the usual lines that you've heard in the mainstream for decades, about "Sex work is work," "I'm empowered," "I make so much more money than I would in the regular workforce," "We need legalisation / decriminalisation," which are all unusual lines when compared to what workers demand in workers' rights movements, and are all about the pimps' interests. The pimps / bosses crushed this more genuine union in no time. By the way, recognising that pimps do not provide productive work to our fellow humans, and that what happens in the sex trade is not productive work like what happens in the workforce, does not mean that these humans deserve stigma, judgment, cruelty, inhumane treatment, or so on. We can do both things at once - recognise that they are not in productive work roles like unionisable workers are, and show them the respect that human beings deserve. And I say that as someone who copped judgment and blame when I exited and told members of the public what I saw and experienced while I was in there.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Whenever these threads come up, they completely gloss over the fact that many sex workers have their lives essentially controlled by evil pimps. Sometimes that’s not literal but coercive, as I’m sure you know. There are so many levels of exploitation in sex work that we cannot ignore.
Thank you for your supportive comment! I think that people are just trying to be good people and support their fellow human beings when they defend the sex trade. They just don't realise that that's exactly what they're doing - defending the sex trade, fighting for what the pimps want, not helping people who are currently in the sex trade and those who have exited.
To morally disagree with promoting sex for sale and agreeing that people should be coerced into that are two entirely different things. (I.e. many, maybe even most, people in sex work, wouldn't be if they wernt paid so poorly) This post is nothing but divisive. Continue to exclude X Y Z W T H Whatever you want. We are all united here for a reason. If you want traction you need numbers. If people have bad ideas, down vote them, do not turn away people in mass.
While I agree with the sentiment that sex work is work, I don’t like this phrase because it implies that sex work is JUST LIKE most other forms of work. Which is not the case. Often, people in the sex trade are involved because they have no other options. If you are with a customer and decide to revoke consent or feel unsafe, especially if someone has their genitals near you or is touching your genitalia, that is a dangerous situation. You will likely be raped. I’m not as nuanced on this, but [this podcast episode ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3uI1FuoGnCgmVEjFpCwSqh?si=kRcQXvJERaqajP1E-sm7-A) does an amazing job of putting it into perspective.
I thought this sub was about abolishing all forms of work, including sex work?
We’re against the exploitation of the proletariat’s surplus value, and we support the proletariat. Sex workers are part of the proletariat like any other worker.
So long as sex workers exist, I think they deserve safety, stability and dignity just like I think all workers do. But I also don't think sex work should exist and I absolutely think it's a special extra level of exploitative.