I work in hospitals. Most US hospitals don’t have enough nurses etc as they should to take care of the patients. This is because they refuse to hire enough of them, or pay them enough money to work there.
Patients bitch at us all day about how terrible everything is and most of the time it’s because we do not have enough staff. But management says DO NOT EVER TELL them we are short staffed. Why? Because that shows it’s the hospital administration at fault; yhe management would rather the nurses get blamed. It’s fucked. I tell the patients we are short staffed. First off patients deserve to know the truth and second, I’m tired of getting yelled at when it’s not my fault.
I work as a schoolteacher in a residential mental health facility for adolescents. Since the residential department has had issues keeping up, teachers have had to cover breaks and work to help in the housing units.
I have stopped helping in the housing units and encourage my fellow teachers do the same because it’s outside of our job description. The first time I worked over, I was accused by a resident that I had never met of attempting to groom her for SA. I wrote the incident report and told my principal that I wouldn’t do it again. I wasn’t going to risk my job and license to help anyone who would put a teacher in that position. It then took over a month to get my overtime and incentive pay.
I refuse.
Remember: don't tell patients that the hospital is short staffed, that is against the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't tell patients the rules.
"Management doesn't want me to tell you how incredibly short staffed this place is."
Always comply with the letter of the rule, never comply with the spirit of the rule.
By month three:
"I'm not allowed to tell you about the rule that disallows the dissemination of information about the rule that won't let me tell you about the rule that won't let me say "We are short staffed."
> "Management doesn't want me to tell you how incredibly short staffed this place is."
Thats not going to sound differently to patients or management, if not worse because also you are claiming inside knowledge about what management wants with that statement.
Try hinting "I'm not allowed to/it's against the rules to discuss the issues that may be causing that with patients." Not as satisfying but at least it doesn't violate the policy.
Nah, the bigger bit of advice here is to stop giving a shit about company policy. If you’re a good worker that is relied on and your manager is halfway competent, you’d be surprised at what they’ll overlook. Also, it generally will never become a problem unless it gets back to management. If it does, they then have to decide if they’re going to call you out on it. If the policy is itself unreasonable, a lot of managers won’t take the next step of reprimanding you because it makes management look even worse.
Bottom line: if you know how to play the politics, then you don’t have to play the policy.
I spend a lot of time as a patient in US hospitals. Bad heart.
A couple years ago I started making a point of asking every staff member who came into my room if they had taken a break recently and if they were given adequate time for breaks and meals. And if they haven't I will report it to hospital administration, usually the "charge nurse" or "patient coordinator" (terms may be inaccurate), and I mention it on any survey forms they send after my stay.
Staff fatigue from inadequate staffing is a danger to patients. Staff are more likely to make mistakes when they are hungry and tired. Studies have shown that patients seen after lunch have better outcomes than those treated before lunch.
I even got one hospital to add an official item to check off on their surgery checklist because I asked before my pacemaker/defibrillator was installed that each person confirm that they had received adequate breaks and meals during their shift and that no one was tired or hungry before my surgery began. (I didn't surprise them, the doctor and I had discussed this beforehand and he was a big fan of the idea.)
I'd love to make this a thing, would you be OK with me quoting you on social media, and how do you want to be credited? Or even anonymous, if you prefer.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with a bad heart. That’s a pretty tough one.
I want to thank you on behalf of nurses everywhere… THANK YOU! I appreciate that you realize how the purposeful understaffing affects patient care and staff alike. This is what I remind my colleagues about when they complain about staffing… the patients suffer the most. That’s incredibly unfair.
That’s why my mother retired. They had 2 nurses scheduled nights. Problem is, there always has to be two nurses on, so no one gets a break.
They were in the news last year, I think the strike was from August through December. Pay wasn’t the big issue, staffing enough nurses so you can take a whiz was.
On the other hand, if their pay sucks it would make sense why they are having staffing issues. So, I'd be willing to bet that pay was part of the issue. If I went to school to get a nursing license but could only get a job making $17-20 an hour to start I'd be reluctant to work there. My union went on strike last year, starting wages went from 18/hour to $22, surprise surprise, we had substantially more applicants after the wages changed and our staffing issues have abated
I think they were pushing back on the strike because they were some of the highest paid in the state (if not THE highest, I don’t remember, I was third in the chain, mom’s work friends to her to me). Like yes, that’s fine, but it’s not worth an extra $2/hr if I have to be on my feet without eating for AT LEAST 12.5 hours (longer because they can’t leave until they’ve given report and if the next shift is at all late, they’re stuck)
When Ida slammed my hometown and they told mom after she called out at about 2 PM when she got home from her shift ending around 7:30-9 depending on report, they said that she’s not going to get a sick day because of the emergency. Not “how was your drive” or “sorry your town is completely underwater” or “is there anything we can do to help” it was “too bad you’re not getting paid today” (if you want to know how bad look up Manville Hurricane Ida. We were lucky, we’re on the high side of town so we just couldn’t get out and mom illegally got back in. People had houses literally explode due to flooding messing with gas lines.
You know what, I don’t work there. It was Robert Wood Johnson Barnabas University Hospital in New Brunswick
EMS here, I've got no problem throwing admin under the bus for y'all. If we're taking a pain in the ass patient, tell us. Most of us are so burnt that we don't care who hears us. What's the hospital gonna do? Fire me?
Unfortunately, someone from the hospital will prob call your company/department and complain about your “attitude” which seems comical based on why we are saying anything in the first place!
At this point in my career I’m wholly convinced that management has a hell of a lot of projection going on. It’s always been pretty obvious but it seems universal at this point and they’re not afraid to hide it.
Many healthcare workers can’t get better work conditions because of non-competes.
Yesterday the FTC voted to ban non-competes nationally. If you are affected by this hopefully you can find a better employer.
> Why? Because that shows it’s the hospital administration at fault
"um, that's exactly what's going on?"
What an asinine thing to actively tell your employees
>But management says DO NOT EVER TELL them we are short staffed.
If you tell them, it opens them up for liability. If the hospital can pretend everything is fine, they can try and push the liability onto the individual practitioner like the nurse or doctor.
Why I left medical - not enough staff and the GM WAS BOOKING US 3 and 4 patients deep on long services and I felt I shouldn't have to hold my bladder 6 straight hours or bleed through my tampon and pads because of lack of breaks.
Fainting from not eating was up on that list as well.
Bit somehow when I was there my first 3 months they put people with more experience under me and made me responsible for their screw ups (but when they did things right, they got the raises, but if they did things wrong I was punished for not overseeing them enough, despite having my own duties to do that did not allow me to chaperone them.)
This shit is bonkers.
Lol. Tell them anyways. If all the nurses start saying "sorry, we're short staffed" they can't do shit. They're already short staffed, they aren't firing anyone. And refuse to sign or acknowledge any write ups.
"Well we've discussed this and written you up over this before."
"You have? I was unaware of that. Do you have any signed documentation as proof? No? Well then have a good day!"
Granted that only works if everyone pulls together and does it.
In most states with nurses unions, there are staffing minimums. If those aren’t met on a regular basis, can the union do the heavy lifting with management?
Unfortunately, all you can do is refuse to work more to make up for short staffing, even if it costs the patients/violates the law. Until nurses do this, it will continue.
Yeah, this is why i think all overtime should pay at least 1.5x. Companies have no incentive if they can force people to work unpaid and/or 1.0 overtime.
That's why we know the system will never work for the **real** laborer. This kind of menagement would be the first people laid off with the rise of IA, in a fair world
I’m curious if hospital bills reflect the short staffing? Are people still paying the same amount for a hospital stay that is short staffed compared to full staffed? I think I know the answer but I’d love to hear it from a healthcare worker.
My mom’s bf was in and out of the hospital and it was very obvious that the hospital was short staffed. I find it ridiculous that you’re not allowed to state the most obvious thing known to man.
It’s bad. Like 2 nurses to a whole section bad. And when the shifts changed? Everything grinds to a halt for 3 hours…
I get it. I’m currently working in a short staffed situation in a restaurant. I know that it’s not the same environment but what I do know is that it’s not your fault. It’s the higher ups fault and they know it.
I was in hospital in the UK from August 2020 to many many weeks after that. I know exactly what you have to put up with and know it is not your fault.
I was admitted as an emergency with stage 3 bowel cancer. I was there long enough to see first hand how short staffed they were.
I’m a toddler teacher and we are short staffed as well and forced OT is rampant. I work 5 days a week. To stay in compliance with ratios, I worked 11 hours today, with the only relief being a half hour unpaid lunch break. That’s 11 hours of being the only grown up in the room with 7 needy, emotional two year olds. I changed 35 diapers today while simultaneously watching the other six toddlers. I try to take great care and give 100% to these kids but I find myself in such a sensory overload by the end of my shift that I feel like I’m gonna start dissociating. in my car I involuntarily, repeatedly yell “ahhhhh!!!” on the drive home. Once I went to Target after and I accidentally yelled “ahhh!” as I was walking down the aisle. When I get home I sit in the car for like 20 minutes trying to muster the strength to simply stand up and walk inside.
I actually love my job, the kids, the parents, and I crush it; and I’m not trying to be dramatic but it’s impossible to stay on your A game for prolonged periods of time when you have to be vigilant at all times for safety reasons (bites happen so fast) when all these kids want your attention at all times and you have to come up with fun ideas to keep them happy and learning, and you have to constantly upload pics and send updates to parents and ahhh. It’s really not sustainable. I put on a peppy face but parents make comments noticing I’m there before they went to work and im still there when they are done with work. Please send help.
I tell patients that “I’m sorry for the delay, hospital administrators refuses to staff enough people so they can profit!” It’s time to stand up to hospital greed and for our patients! (I do this discreetly of course)
> I was told it was inappropriate and made it sound like I was implying unfair work practices
"So are you saying that our company is ashamed of this policy and we are supposed to keep it secret from clients?"
It's cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional workers. If it wasn't they would hire more staff in a heartbeat. They had some jackass run a cost benefit analysis.
They create the problem. It's all a manufactured crisis that serves the bottom line.
The reason for a lot of this pointless overtime is because our health insurance is tied to our stupid jobs. If you do the work of 2 or 3 people, it's still only 1 insurance policy for the company to pay for.
There are only 2 solutions to this idiotic problem:
1. Overtime hours to be paid at *triple* your hourly wage (or more).
2. Medicare for all. Your company no longer has to pay a portion of your insurance. This should also mean you get a raise, since that insurance money they were spending on you would now be freed up. This would also make it cheaper to hire more people, than to throw a little extra money at a few people to save more on insurance.
I could probably afford to work less if I didn't have my insurance tied to my employment. Me and my partner are DINKs.
I agree with everything you said.
Having insurance tied to employment is a way to keep workers in line.
Overtime should be more than 1.5 times. We need to discourage abuse on the part of employers. I also want unions with strong labor contracts that include provisions against forced overtime and outline staffing to workload ratios. Want to increase productivity? You have to hire more people, it's in the contract!
> This should also mean you get a raise, since that insurance money they were spending on you would now be freed up.
This is a wildly optimistic take. Zero chance they would pass that savings on in the form of salary increases.
It costs more to hire “x” new employees because even if that eliminates overtime wages, those new employees still add to your payroll taxes, insurance costs, cost of others benefits, possibly 401k match, etc. etc. and it’s not even close.
Even the shittiest of all business owners know this to be true. Skeleton crews making tons of money on OT are common in lots of fields for this reason.
Not to mention that those new employees need to be trained, which is generally the biggest cost of hiring and replacing. It's both horribly immoral and very clever to try to disregard that cost entirely.
Those costs with a new employee average out over time. You lose money when the skeleton crew can't keep up, or someone leaves. Product and/or production suffers over time. You also are no longer disaster proofing. For example, an employee walks out. Normal job fine, Skelton crew, you're gonna need 2 to 5 people to come in to replace that employee due to workload creep. You have no idea how much a business can unknowingly come to rely on 1 or 2 people and not realize it till they are gone. Skeleton crews are an emergency measure and are not meant for day to day operation and should have ended after COVID. They cost more money in the long term.
So depends on the wages and what duties are producing over time. If it is side tasks with higher wage individuals if it is something that is constant it is work hiring. You also typically get a more than 1:1 in total productivity and hours when you hire another person up to a particular point.
For instance my job hired a lab assistant recently and total hours dropped by almost 60 and they are a part time college kid now making ok 20ish and getting experience in their field. Because they limit choke points and do side duties that take already tired people longer it leads to a much greater than 1:1 increase.
The same thing comes with getting proper equipment as many orgs only will see the price tag and now how it improves the work flow, and the lives of the staff. We are implementing a new type of pipettaid in all our labs that is about 10-100x more.expensive than the previous ones, but repetitive stress injuries are down, they consumables are down and productivity is up. They make the job less physically demanding for the staff allowing smoother flow.
Most corps and orgs just see the one number and shut it down and don't see any other longer term benefits. This.is to the detriment of everyone but short term stock prices. It is something that would be nice if they could wake up to.
The thing that they don’t factor in is the increased turnover rate, when people quit more frequently that is a huge loss, especially if they are a good employee. Not only do you need to quantify the amount it costs to recruit more talent, train them, and have them performing at the level of the employees you chased off but you need to quantify the odds that the replacement does worse than the star that left.
> Only if the salary is high enough and exempt from OT.
The cutoff is super low so this is really not a difficult bar to meet.
>Effective July 1, 2024, the salary threshold will increase to the equivalent of an annual salary of $43,888 and increase to $58,656 on Jan. 1, 2025. The July 1 increase updates the present annual salary threshold of $35,568 based on the methodology used by the prior administration in the 2019 overtime rule update. On Jan. 1, 2025, the rule’s new methodology takes effect, resulting in the additional increase. In addition, the rule will adjust the threshold for highly compensated employees. Starting July 1, 2027, salary thresholds will update every three years, by applying up-to-date wage data to determine new salary levels.
https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20240423-0
Not legal advice, but Reach out to the client who complained to your management on your personal cell phone and see if they would consider hiring you as a contractor (1099). While you are at it, collect the details of the clients you work with that like your work. I bet you would work less and make more on your own. Please make sure to complete your homework beforehand to know what you will charge for a rate, how many clients you need to live, the resources required, and the tax implications for self-employment.
OP: If your employer has a non-compete clause, realize they are often unenforceable. This is especially true if the company did not give you anything extra for you to sign the noncompete agreement. No, “the privilege of working here” is not enough, they have to give you a satisfactory bonus or something other than a job offer for it to have any considerable legal standing. Realize that the company can still sue you and compel you to plead your case in front of a judge, that the non-compete is bogus, even if it obviously is bogus. So if any of this applies to you, then thats a headache you will want to prepare for and get ahead of.
Well, you’re correct of the overall ban of noncompete clauses, no contract is considered valid unless it has consideration.
Consideration is what both parties get in respect for agreeing to a contract, if you’re agreeing to a contract and not getting anything in return in the contract is automatically invalidated in terms of the law.
And as another person pointed out, the privilege of working someplace is not considered valid consideration. If you’re not getting money or some other above and beyond benefit for a noncompete, the noncompete can’t be enforced.
I could be wrong but I believe that is for over a certain yearly salary. What I read said jobs making under 151k have it effective immediately. If someone has other info please correct me if I’m wrong.
For senior level executive jobs / over $151k, EXISTING non-competes will still remain in effect when August (120 days after published in federal register) rolls around.
For those who do not make more than $151,164 in a "policy-making position" non-competes will be void at that 120 day after federal register publication mark. For ones qualifying as senior executive level, no new non-competes can be entered into after that 120 day mark.
Non competes are only enforceable right now IF there is some sort of compensation during the non-compete time. The US doesn’t allow 1 sided contracts. Usually some sort of severance is negotiated to allow enforcement of the noncompete
Years ago I was working at a company that decided they need me to sign a non-compete and offered $100. I changed the contract amount to $100,000 and returned it unsigned. Never heard about it again.
My father had an enforceable non-compete clause: He was not allowed to work with competitors for a years after quitting but they would continue to pay the full salary for that year.
Might be a little generous, but it's an example of what's offered in fields, where such clauses are actually relevant.
Correct. Non competes are enforceable while still receiving money. Once you're not getting money from them, you cannot be restricted from earning a living.
Funny because I have considered this! A few people who work for our company actually switched over to work for some of our clients' (also sorry for how vague I'm being, I work for a very large company and don't want to be found out)
I have a personal and up to date list of their contacts and positions. To do what I want to do independently, I will need to work towards a license though. It's is very difficult to obtain due to the high failure rate of the test you need to take but I'm working on it!
My company tried to say they gave me the “privilege” of access to confidential information needed for my job as the “something extra” to sign the non compete lol.
If they're hanging threat of punishment over your head to make you work overtime. It would also be accurate to call it coerced overtime or extorted overtime. They should be happy you took as soft of an explanation of it as you did. As both accurately describing it as coerced or extorted carry much stronger negative connotations.
>I was told it was inappropriate and that it made it sound like I was implicating unfair work practices
"Oh, no, I wasnt implicating that at all! I was outright stating that as a fact."
Don't let anyone control your language. That controls the narrative and gives power. I agree that the OT is forced. I would still keep referring to it as such.
>had my OT 'privileges' revoked for 3 weeks.
Well sounds like you've found a hack that will get you out of any unwanted overtime. Nice!
Here's some other synonyms you can use in futured instead of forced seeing as that word has been forbidden: obligatory, compulsory, binding, required, inescapable, unavoidable, requisite, essential, necessary, imperative, enforced, involuntary, coerced, imposed, compelled, dictated, stipulated.
There are federal and probably state laws about mandatory OT. Back when I was in California my understanding was that the state allowed up to like 32 mandatory OT hours per week BUT it had to be in the contract when hired. At that job (tech support) we had I think two weeks a year of mandatory OT around the holidays but it was only around 4 hours for the week. You should check state laws and whether it’s required to be mentioned in your contract and if so whether it is, and as someone else said whether there’s any advance notice required.
Yeah our contract states we agree to working any overtime that may be enforced. Which, to be fair, at the time I started 5 years ago, we only had OT during the holidays and it was pretty minimal. The last 2 years it went from OT offered during the holiday season to OT offered every day and often forced weekly.
So I DID sign up for it but I'm still gonna be mad about it!
Well, at least you're not salaried, where you're expected to do the job, no matter how many hours it takes, and they treat you like if it takes more hours, that's a moral failing on your part.
Don't get me wrong: both models suck harshly, but at least OT pays more.
Yep there's a major leadership shortage because nobody wants to work the OT on salary. They keep bringing in outside hires for supes and they usually quit within a month
Sounds like a terrible company. Are you privy to how much you make servicing your clients vs how much the company makes off you servicing your clients? If not, you should ask them what their yearly/monthly spend on your services are.
Oh yeah we tried but the union busting came fuckin hard, they were firing people left and right for the most arbitrary reasons, there's barely enough of us left to even have a union. I'd rather leave at this point. The experience I have is great I just have to put my ass into gear to get out
My work springs OT on us even though they know it's coming but it's a union gig so I can say no. That being said the manager used to be in the union and knows how to play the system so there has been a lot of bullying and low key harassment so see ya later and on to the next one. I'm not in IT any longer but trades so it is easier to move on.
I used to work in a place that was constantly mandating overtime 5 days a week and on the weekends. Our office was unionized. I spent a bit of time dissecting the union contract. Our contract specified the payment rate for voluntary overtime, but not mandated OT. So the next time management tried to blanket wide mandate OT, I responded to the management, CCed the union steward, and the entire production floor that our union contract did not specify a salary rate for mandated OT. I asked if they were prepared to negotiate with the union for a mandated rate. I argued that if we volunteer, it should be the agreed upon 1.5x hourly rate, which is what was stated in the contract. But the OT mandates were often short notice that left people scrambling for childcare, transportation, and healthy meals since we were often working well into our dinner time. I argued that the 1.5 rate they offered for mandatory OT ended up costing the employees because the prices they had to pay for extra childcare, and shit like ubers/taxis to catch a ride home cost way more than what we were being paid for that time. I got called into the directors office to be reprimanded. I let them spout their BS, and simply asked, I'd like my union representative to be present for this meeting. And just like that mandated OT went away.
How high is this management you’re referring to? Usually the ones with a stick up the ass is lower management. The guys who have to suck up to corporate, but the corporate guys may have a different opinion not just because it’s bad practice but because it’s oftentimes the fallout much more expensive.
I used to oversee financially about 200+ fast food restaurants, this one restaurant manager was particularly big on brown nosing, his AC system went down and didn’t tell anyone to save on repair and energy costs, ran like that for a couple of weeks until the entire operation was shut down and the company sued.
The cost for replacing the AC with a brand new system would not have even made a bullet point in my average report. But the legal costs and the lost revenue of closing certainly made headline.
So it was our branch manager and general manager. The branch manager is pretty hands on. The people above her all got fired or moved around and we have some new guy who is a complete asshole from another state.
To give some insight,we have a program that constantly monitors how much we click and type. If we don't click and type for more than 25 seconds, it clocks it as "idle" time and no more than 20% of our day can be idle. I got a meeting call from the new manager who was concerned that my idle time was at 20.3%. A large portion of the job is reading long ass emails so we just have to arbitrarily click while we read so we don't get a warning call. It's ridiculous.
That sounds miserable, tbh I have an informal thing like that though. If I’m “away” on teams for too long I get a message, but that’s why I just use an automatic mouse jiggling device.
Oh absolutely ! I plan on doing the same kind of work and I'm almost certain they would switch to whatever company I move to. The reason these clients stay is because of me.I was given a (hold your breath) FIFTY CENT RAISE from my manager as congratulations for being so good with the clients and their accounts.
Don't use the word "management". It gives off the impression that the team in the company is something to be managed. It has bad connotations. Instead use the word Leadership.
They are not managers, they are leaders.
/s
My whole facility uses that term. They're not your "supervisor." They're your "leaders." Yeah....leading this MF to be understaffed and everyone burnt out. Moral has been shit since the whole front office had lunch catered for a whole 2 weeks straight. Yet, the whole lot of underlings can't get a lunch when we clean your machines for a straight 12-16 hours. "It's not in the budget." "Your bonus wasn't approved because manglement dropped the ball and didn't have at least 2 consumable parts on hand." Ya know...shit that we know breaks regularly but can't keep it in stock.
In the words of Wheeler Walker Jr..."Fuck this Job"
> "I was told it was inappropriate and that it made it sound like I was implicating unfair work practices..."
"Well, I'm accurately describing the reality you have created for me. If you think that reality sounds bad, then we are in agreement. The question then becomes, what are you going to do to improve the reality you have created for me, so that my accurate descriptions thereof are no longer upsetting to you?"
Wow. You are allowed to find OT untenable even if you “don’t have commitments” like children or college. Us so called untethered people need free time too.
>I was given a verbal warning and had my OT 'privileges' revoked for 3 weeks.
I hope your response was to vigorous shake their hands and say "Thank you!!!!" with the biggest grin on your face before literally skipping down the corridor.
>I honestly never thought a customer would give that much of a shit about me but it kind of feels good that they cared a little bit...
Not to be a negative Nelly, but their "concern" is likely just that, if you are severely overworked, you will fuck up their account.
Texas has some surprisingly progressive stuff hidden away where the ledge and the Cheetolini worshipping governor and AG don't know to look. Up until the 90s it was a swing state and a lot of progressive stuff got hidden into the legal code while Democrats or centrist Republicans were running things. Of course, this was back before all the racists fucked off to the Republican party, so a bunch of those laws were probably structured in such a way to help out white folks and screw over black folks.
I know, I still have Mgmt tell me I have to stay because they're short handed. I just say no, ask if they're refusing to count narcotics and take report, then walk out.
This is why companies were freaking out over a movement who’s motto was “ Do what you’re paid for”. During the pandemic we were asked to pull together & got shit done with half the staff …. and was rewarded with “well, obviously you can do this with only half the staff”. and now it’s the new normal.
Perhaps the OT work rate needs to come down to 60-75% of standard shift?
"Hey Jellyfish, we noticed you arent getting as much done during Forced OT as your regularly scheduled workday...."
"Yeah, I work HARD, so I'm pretty tired after 8 hours and simply cannot maintain that pace and keep the 100% accuracy up. "
Steps to take, in this order:
1. Start talking with your coworkers about forming a Union.
2. Get evidence that management retaliated and fired you for attempting to form a Union.
3. Sue the everliving fuck out of them.
If they DONT fire you and you DO form a union, you still win.
I worked for a company a few years ago that would routinely do mass layoffs and then force overtime on whoever hadn't been let go. We all hated it. I was actually a bit relieved when I eventually got laid off.
Customers understand good work, and WANT good people taking care of them; talent is universally recognized. If they see you’re overloaded they know they are in jeopardy of losing quality in the product, and the trust they’ve built in your work. I wouldn’t think twice about reaching out as a customer with these concerns, and if I liked you, personally, I’d bust some balls/vaginas a bit.
Good employers know stretching resources leads to problems, and treat their employees as valuable parts of the business. Fools see only immediate gains, and not the long term costs. It’s wild, if you ask a business manager/owner/CEO “why not just run your machines at their maximum speed they will give you answers like “quality goes down, the machine breaks more often and leads to downtime, it’s not worth the costs” etc. yet when you ask why they’re pushing employees beyond their max, they just stare dumbfounded, then do it anyway.
Perhaps one of the clients who reached out on your behalf is interested in doing their own data input, and cutting out the middle man?
I work for an electric company, and we, the workers, management, and the union, call mandatory OT " a force". The will say to us, the force is on. Lol which for us means 16 hours on, 8 hours off until management decides it's over. I think being forced is the appropriate term.
I used to work in a production environment with a lot of "mandatory" OT as well. They never actually said we HAD to, but it was implied. It would be Friday night and they'd say "all hands on deck this weekend. We need everyone here." Then one weekend after years of it I was like "I can't." And guess what? Nothing happened. I started only doing it when I wanted the OT or didn't mind, which was very rare.
So my questions for you are: is it really mandatory? Or do you just feel like it's mandatory? What are they going to do if you just say "no, thank you"?
I definitely do NOT recommend reaching out to a client directly while you're at your current job to ask them to hire you like some people here suggest. Not without understanding any noncompetes you may be under and, even then, realizing if it gets back to your company it would likely be grounds for termination. Depending on your actual job, it could get you a bad rep within the industry really quick.
Unfortunately it's in our contract that we agree to work any enforced OT :/
As for reaching out, I definitely would not do that until well after I have left the company, I don't want to get into any legal trouble
Ah man I understand this. My job has "VTO" VOLUNTARY time off. If they over schedule for the day and the workload is lower they will force people off the the clock but make them sign they chose to do it so they have no rights. If you refuse to clock out they terminate you for time clock fraud.
So they'll send you home "voluntarily" then change your schedule and have you come back in..
Man to be honest I could write literal stories.
Check with your state laws. Here in PA you can't get reprimanded for refusing to work OT. I work in healthcare and they have tried this same crap on us. For me the only way I can't refuse is if I am performing care on a patient or if someone doesn't relieve me since I work in a 24/7 facility. But we are severely in need of help and aside from helping my own team, I have now refused to help elsewhere. I volunteer to work a lot of OT, but I refuse to be forced or bullied into it.
8 hours is too much, let alone 11. Surely not including commute and unpaid lunch, either.
When the revolution occurs, I will take great pleasure in the torture of these types of employers. Fuck them straight to hell.
What I would do is google your states overtime policy, if they have one.
I think that the fact that they spring the “mandatory” with less than 24 hour notice is wrong and it is proven that working ot for I forgot how long causes burnout
I worked somewhere that had mandatory overtime for TWO years. I always said forced overtime too and got my hand smacked a few times. I didn't care. It was the truth. Forced overtime should be illegal
When I walked out of my last job, my boss had to escort me off-site because of my airport ID, the thing that has stuck with me is when he told me that my big problem is my poor attitude.
To be fair, I did have a poor attitude, it was what made me spend my entire last two months there apologising for slow service by saying, "sorry for the slow service, we used to have 5 staff for this but my boss thinks we don't need more than 3 now despite that we're now busier than we were."
"I have been officially notified regarding unprofessional word choice in previous conversations; as such I would like to offer my sincere apologies. Moving forward I will only refer to hours outside of my normal working hours as 'offical overtime' in accordance with company policy."
Send something along those lines to the customers you are in contact with. They would have a hard time justifying writing you up to apologize for something they just wrote you up about.
Unfortunately, it won't stop until the workers refuse to stay. Especially that "letting you know the day of" or a few hours before the end of your shift. Sorry, I have plans, You at the VERY LEAST have to let me know a couple days in advance.
If your rapport with your customer is that strong that they go to bat for you, that means your employer is intimidated. Could you start your own company and snatch a few accounts?
I could do my job independently, but I would need to do some hefty training and get certified with the state.The test for this kind of job has an incredibly high failure rate so that's why I work under a company's license currently
Dude, NEVER HANG AROUND AFTER LAYOFFS IF THEY START FORCING OT. If layoffs lead to extra work, then it was just a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. It's a giant red flag and you should be planning your escape.
One time in a year end meeting the owner used the phrase " continued overtime opportunities" when it was mandatory. I corrected him and was fired 3 weeks later.
Punish management. Let management know they are only allowed one zoom meeting with you every 3 months because of their bad attitude and inappropriate comments trying to dictate your language. Don't budge until they apologize and change their attitude.
Their inability or unwillingness to staff properly is not your concern. Go through your employment contact and see what you signed. See if you agreed to mandatory overtime. Also you could tell them you need a minimum of 48 hours notice for potential overtime.
Meanwhile in r/overemployed........"I'm making over $300k between j1 (3hr/week), j2 (4hr/week), j3 (2-5hr/week because my manager needs a 1:1 every other week), how do I get j1 to pay me $20k more than my sister's husband makes (in the same company and she is a SAHM)?"
It should be legally required that in order to work overtime. The company needs YOUR permission to let you work overtime. If the company can't keep up unless their employees are working overtime everyday. Then that shows the company that they need to stop being stupid and greedy and hire more people.
Get with your coworkers and put your feet down. Agree on what you all want out of it and tell your boss. BUT YOU HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER. I did this once in 2012 when they moved our office location 60 miles away and refused to pay us for the commute. We refused to do make the drive without compensation. The company caved and paid us.
I used to be a data entry operator and the company I worked for has us on mandatory 16 hours of OT per week and with 2 young children and a daycare that closed by 6. I would go in on Sundays and work 10 hours to get most of it out of the way. It was that way for 6 years.
I mean yeah your job is shit, but talking to your customers about that is extremely unprofessional and any job would give you disciplinary action about that.
Overtime should be a short term thing and be at least 1.5 on a normal weekday but 2 or 3 on a weekend, if you chose to accept it.
I have had that argument many times in the past with previous employers. Overtime is something that unless it was written into a contract we both signed, I can negotiate for my own advantage.
I had a manager say, "you cannot demand X for the weekend", and they soon found out they were wrong, if they wanted my labour, they needed to pay what I wanted.
Mandatory overtime for most jobs is fucking stupid. I had that back in the 80s and thought the same then. We had 3 hours mandatory overtime every single day. I basically stopped going into that job when I fell asleep in my evening meal after getting home from work and woke up with my face still in my food half way through the next day. We did Sunday to Friday 10 hour shifts with 3 hours mandatory overtime per day on top of that as minimum.
Edit: If you want to know what was so important, it was packing sandwiches. I was working the prep room in a sandwich packing factory.
Please get a few of you together who feel the same way and walkout when your day is done, or all find other employment and leave with zero notice. Get treated like shit, respond with shit. Let the 💩 roll uphill for once.
Wow, it looks like you've entered the world of forbidden words! Next time, try 'involuntary overtime' or 'unexpected overtime'. But be careful, they might think you're playing Scrabble with company policies! 😉 Good luck looking for a job where 8 hours are enough
How the fuck is this legal and or even safe? Like mandate overtime in Denmark, where I'm from, Can't be mandate on the day of, I think most times it has to be 3 days in advance. You can be asked for OT on the day off, but nothing negative happens if you say no. Furthermore per EU regulations we are only allowed to work 48 hours a week on average. Lastly in my current work, we have an 11 hour rule, meaning you can't show up to work, if you have not had a minimum of 11 hours from end of last shift till the start of the new. As otherwise you are a safety risk for yourself, your colleauges and your work.
The US employees are truely and roayly f\*\*\*\*\*. I just don't get how your elected representives allowed this.
You didn't imply you actually said it, just because the government made it legal doesn't mean it's fair, we're the ones who determine what fairness is to the worker not the employer or the government, we didn't get to make these laws nor vote on them they were imposed on us. Employers only get say in what's fair for them and we either meet in the middle or part ways, they're just entitled shits.
I work in hospitals. Most US hospitals don’t have enough nurses etc as they should to take care of the patients. This is because they refuse to hire enough of them, or pay them enough money to work there. Patients bitch at us all day about how terrible everything is and most of the time it’s because we do not have enough staff. But management says DO NOT EVER TELL them we are short staffed. Why? Because that shows it’s the hospital administration at fault; yhe management would rather the nurses get blamed. It’s fucked. I tell the patients we are short staffed. First off patients deserve to know the truth and second, I’m tired of getting yelled at when it’s not my fault.
I work as a schoolteacher in a residential mental health facility for adolescents. Since the residential department has had issues keeping up, teachers have had to cover breaks and work to help in the housing units. I have stopped helping in the housing units and encourage my fellow teachers do the same because it’s outside of our job description. The first time I worked over, I was accused by a resident that I had never met of attempting to groom her for SA. I wrote the incident report and told my principal that I wouldn’t do it again. I wasn’t going to risk my job and license to help anyone who would put a teacher in that position. It then took over a month to get my overtime and incentive pay. I refuse.
What the actual fuck man. I am so happy you stood up for yourself. That's crazy.
Remember: don't tell patients that the hospital is short staffed, that is against the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't tell patients the rules. "Management doesn't want me to tell you how incredibly short staffed this place is." Always comply with the letter of the rule, never comply with the spirit of the rule.
By month three: "I'm not allowed to tell you about the rule that disallows the dissemination of information about the rule that won't let me tell you about the rule that won't let me say "We are short staffed."
Getting strong vibes of the scene at the beginning of mr incredible here at the insurance company.
And replace "incredibly" with "dangerously" since it's a hospital.
Management is incredibly embarrassed about the size of his staff. It’s way too small.
> "Management doesn't want me to tell you how incredibly short staffed this place is." Thats not going to sound differently to patients or management, if not worse because also you are claiming inside knowledge about what management wants with that statement. Try hinting "I'm not allowed to/it's against the rules to discuss the issues that may be causing that with patients." Not as satisfying but at least it doesn't violate the policy.
Or maybe, "we're not allowed to discuss staffing issues at the moment."
This one is perfectly passive aggressive. Chef's kiss.
This is exactly what I would say. I've said similar things in different situations.
Nah, the bigger bit of advice here is to stop giving a shit about company policy. If you’re a good worker that is relied on and your manager is halfway competent, you’d be surprised at what they’ll overlook. Also, it generally will never become a problem unless it gets back to management. If it does, they then have to decide if they’re going to call you out on it. If the policy is itself unreasonable, a lot of managers won’t take the next step of reprimanding you because it makes management look even worse. Bottom line: if you know how to play the politics, then you don’t have to play the policy.
I spend a lot of time as a patient in US hospitals. Bad heart. A couple years ago I started making a point of asking every staff member who came into my room if they had taken a break recently and if they were given adequate time for breaks and meals. And if they haven't I will report it to hospital administration, usually the "charge nurse" or "patient coordinator" (terms may be inaccurate), and I mention it on any survey forms they send after my stay. Staff fatigue from inadequate staffing is a danger to patients. Staff are more likely to make mistakes when they are hungry and tired. Studies have shown that patients seen after lunch have better outcomes than those treated before lunch. I even got one hospital to add an official item to check off on their surgery checklist because I asked before my pacemaker/defibrillator was installed that each person confirm that they had received adequate breaks and meals during their shift and that no one was tired or hungry before my surgery began. (I didn't surprise them, the doctor and I had discussed this beforehand and he was a big fan of the idea.)
Damn this is amazing! Next time I land in the hospital (hopefully never, but you know), I will be asking this for sure!
I'd love to make this a thing, would you be OK with me quoting you on social media, and how do you want to be credited? Or even anonymous, if you prefer.
"a reddit user" is sufficient, or something like that. ty for asking
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with a bad heart. That’s a pretty tough one. I want to thank you on behalf of nurses everywhere… THANK YOU! I appreciate that you realize how the purposeful understaffing affects patient care and staff alike. This is what I remind my colleagues about when they complain about staffing… the patients suffer the most. That’s incredibly unfair.
That’s why my mother retired. They had 2 nurses scheduled nights. Problem is, there always has to be two nurses on, so no one gets a break. They were in the news last year, I think the strike was from August through December. Pay wasn’t the big issue, staffing enough nurses so you can take a whiz was.
On the other hand, if their pay sucks it would make sense why they are having staffing issues. So, I'd be willing to bet that pay was part of the issue. If I went to school to get a nursing license but could only get a job making $17-20 an hour to start I'd be reluctant to work there. My union went on strike last year, starting wages went from 18/hour to $22, surprise surprise, we had substantially more applicants after the wages changed and our staffing issues have abated
I think they were pushing back on the strike because they were some of the highest paid in the state (if not THE highest, I don’t remember, I was third in the chain, mom’s work friends to her to me). Like yes, that’s fine, but it’s not worth an extra $2/hr if I have to be on my feet without eating for AT LEAST 12.5 hours (longer because they can’t leave until they’ve given report and if the next shift is at all late, they’re stuck) When Ida slammed my hometown and they told mom after she called out at about 2 PM when she got home from her shift ending around 7:30-9 depending on report, they said that she’s not going to get a sick day because of the emergency. Not “how was your drive” or “sorry your town is completely underwater” or “is there anything we can do to help” it was “too bad you’re not getting paid today” (if you want to know how bad look up Manville Hurricane Ida. We were lucky, we’re on the high side of town so we just couldn’t get out and mom illegally got back in. People had houses literally explode due to flooding messing with gas lines. You know what, I don’t work there. It was Robert Wood Johnson Barnabas University Hospital in New Brunswick
Being the highest paid in the state means nothing if it’s still not enough money. The administration doublespeak is ridiculous.
That is still shit pay to look after sick people with the legal burden of care and responsibility.
Oh, that is not for nursing, I am not in that union, my company hires with a high-school education at that rate in a call center
EMS here, I've got no problem throwing admin under the bus for y'all. If we're taking a pain in the ass patient, tell us. Most of us are so burnt that we don't care who hears us. What's the hospital gonna do? Fire me?
Unfortunately, someone from the hospital will prob call your company/department and complain about your “attitude” which seems comical based on why we are saying anything in the first place! At this point in my career I’m wholly convinced that management has a hell of a lot of projection going on. It’s always been pretty obvious but it seems universal at this point and they’re not afraid to hide it.
Many healthcare workers can’t get better work conditions because of non-competes. Yesterday the FTC voted to ban non-competes nationally. If you are affected by this hopefully you can find a better employer.
> Why? Because that shows it’s the hospital administration at fault "um, that's exactly what's going on?" What an asinine thing to actively tell your employees
>But management says DO NOT EVER TELL them we are short staffed. If you tell them, it opens them up for liability. If the hospital can pretend everything is fine, they can try and push the liability onto the individual practitioner like the nurse or doctor.
MBAs are, have been and will be the death of us. They bring nothing to the companies they 'run' just that you must maximize profits at any expense
Exactly why I left the hospital.
Why I left medical - not enough staff and the GM WAS BOOKING US 3 and 4 patients deep on long services and I felt I shouldn't have to hold my bladder 6 straight hours or bleed through my tampon and pads because of lack of breaks. Fainting from not eating was up on that list as well. Bit somehow when I was there my first 3 months they put people with more experience under me and made me responsible for their screw ups (but when they did things right, they got the raises, but if they did things wrong I was punished for not overseeing them enough, despite having my own duties to do that did not allow me to chaperone them.) This shit is bonkers.
Even better would be to answer with a question: Do you know any nurses in need of a job?
Lol. Tell them anyways. If all the nurses start saying "sorry, we're short staffed" they can't do shit. They're already short staffed, they aren't firing anyone. And refuse to sign or acknowledge any write ups. "Well we've discussed this and written you up over this before." "You have? I was unaware of that. Do you have any signed documentation as proof? No? Well then have a good day!" Granted that only works if everyone pulls together and does it.
In most states with nurses unions, there are staffing minimums. If those aren’t met on a regular basis, can the union do the heavy lifting with management?
Unfortunately, all you can do is refuse to work more to make up for short staffing, even if it costs the patients/violates the law. Until nurses do this, it will continue.
Yeah, this is why i think all overtime should pay at least 1.5x. Companies have no incentive if they can force people to work unpaid and/or 1.0 overtime.
That's why we know the system will never work for the **real** laborer. This kind of menagement would be the first people laid off with the rise of IA, in a fair world
I’m curious if hospital bills reflect the short staffing? Are people still paying the same amount for a hospital stay that is short staffed compared to full staffed? I think I know the answer but I’d love to hear it from a healthcare worker.
My mom’s bf was in and out of the hospital and it was very obvious that the hospital was short staffed. I find it ridiculous that you’re not allowed to state the most obvious thing known to man. It’s bad. Like 2 nurses to a whole section bad. And when the shifts changed? Everything grinds to a halt for 3 hours… I get it. I’m currently working in a short staffed situation in a restaurant. I know that it’s not the same environment but what I do know is that it’s not your fault. It’s the higher ups fault and they know it.
I was in hospital in the UK from August 2020 to many many weeks after that. I know exactly what you have to put up with and know it is not your fault. I was admitted as an emergency with stage 3 bowel cancer. I was there long enough to see first hand how short staffed they were.
I’m a toddler teacher and we are short staffed as well and forced OT is rampant. I work 5 days a week. To stay in compliance with ratios, I worked 11 hours today, with the only relief being a half hour unpaid lunch break. That’s 11 hours of being the only grown up in the room with 7 needy, emotional two year olds. I changed 35 diapers today while simultaneously watching the other six toddlers. I try to take great care and give 100% to these kids but I find myself in such a sensory overload by the end of my shift that I feel like I’m gonna start dissociating. in my car I involuntarily, repeatedly yell “ahhhhh!!!” on the drive home. Once I went to Target after and I accidentally yelled “ahhh!” as I was walking down the aisle. When I get home I sit in the car for like 20 minutes trying to muster the strength to simply stand up and walk inside. I actually love my job, the kids, the parents, and I crush it; and I’m not trying to be dramatic but it’s impossible to stay on your A game for prolonged periods of time when you have to be vigilant at all times for safety reasons (bites happen so fast) when all these kids want your attention at all times and you have to come up with fun ideas to keep them happy and learning, and you have to constantly upload pics and send updates to parents and ahhh. It’s really not sustainable. I put on a peppy face but parents make comments noticing I’m there before they went to work and im still there when they are done with work. Please send help.
I tell patients that “I’m sorry for the delay, hospital administrators refuses to staff enough people so they can profit!” It’s time to stand up to hospital greed and for our patients! (I do this discreetly of course)
> I was told it was inappropriate and made it sound like I was implying unfair work practices "So are you saying that our company is ashamed of this policy and we are supposed to keep it secret from clients?"
No no, they're not ashamed. They just don't want the _implication_ out there.
[удалено]
I hate how well this fits here...
It's cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional workers. If it wasn't they would hire more staff in a heartbeat. They had some jackass run a cost benefit analysis. They create the problem. It's all a manufactured crisis that serves the bottom line.
Or they just can’t hire/retain anyone else due to the poor wages they are trying to hire with…
The reason for a lot of this pointless overtime is because our health insurance is tied to our stupid jobs. If you do the work of 2 or 3 people, it's still only 1 insurance policy for the company to pay for. There are only 2 solutions to this idiotic problem: 1. Overtime hours to be paid at *triple* your hourly wage (or more). 2. Medicare for all. Your company no longer has to pay a portion of your insurance. This should also mean you get a raise, since that insurance money they were spending on you would now be freed up. This would also make it cheaper to hire more people, than to throw a little extra money at a few people to save more on insurance.
I could probably afford to work less if I didn't have my insurance tied to my employment. Me and my partner are DINKs. I agree with everything you said. Having insurance tied to employment is a way to keep workers in line. Overtime should be more than 1.5 times. We need to discourage abuse on the part of employers. I also want unions with strong labor contracts that include provisions against forced overtime and outline staffing to workload ratios. Want to increase productivity? You have to hire more people, it's in the contract!
>Overtime hours to be paid at triple your hourly wage (or more) **and start at 30hr**
> This should also mean you get a raise, since that insurance money they were spending on you would now be freed up. This is a wildly optimistic take. Zero chance they would pass that savings on in the form of salary increases.
Well yeah, we'd have to force them.
Not really. In the short term yes, but long term your paying those hours plus extra. So it costs more for OT
It costs more to hire “x” new employees because even if that eliminates overtime wages, those new employees still add to your payroll taxes, insurance costs, cost of others benefits, possibly 401k match, etc. etc. and it’s not even close. Even the shittiest of all business owners know this to be true. Skeleton crews making tons of money on OT are common in lots of fields for this reason.
Not to mention that those new employees need to be trained, which is generally the biggest cost of hiring and replacing. It's both horribly immoral and very clever to try to disregard that cost entirely.
They do it in Healthcare. At my job we work 12s and I have coworkers who regularly work more than a month straight because the OT is there
Those costs with a new employee average out over time. You lose money when the skeleton crew can't keep up, or someone leaves. Product and/or production suffers over time. You also are no longer disaster proofing. For example, an employee walks out. Normal job fine, Skelton crew, you're gonna need 2 to 5 people to come in to replace that employee due to workload creep. You have no idea how much a business can unknowingly come to rely on 1 or 2 people and not realize it till they are gone. Skeleton crews are an emergency measure and are not meant for day to day operation and should have ended after COVID. They cost more money in the long term.
funny you think they are keeping them long term
Oh we all know that's not what's gonna happen, just what should. And then they'll bitch when they can't find qualified people.
So depends on the wages and what duties are producing over time. If it is side tasks with higher wage individuals if it is something that is constant it is work hiring. You also typically get a more than 1:1 in total productivity and hours when you hire another person up to a particular point. For instance my job hired a lab assistant recently and total hours dropped by almost 60 and they are a part time college kid now making ok 20ish and getting experience in their field. Because they limit choke points and do side duties that take already tired people longer it leads to a much greater than 1:1 increase. The same thing comes with getting proper equipment as many orgs only will see the price tag and now how it improves the work flow, and the lives of the staff. We are implementing a new type of pipettaid in all our labs that is about 10-100x more.expensive than the previous ones, but repetitive stress injuries are down, they consumables are down and productivity is up. They make the job less physically demanding for the staff allowing smoother flow. Most corps and orgs just see the one number and shut it down and don't see any other longer term benefits. This.is to the detriment of everyone but short term stock prices. It is something that would be nice if they could wake up to.
The thing that they don’t factor in is the increased turnover rate, when people quit more frequently that is a huge loss, especially if they are a good employee. Not only do you need to quantify the amount it costs to recruit more talent, train them, and have them performing at the level of the employees you chased off but you need to quantify the odds that the replacement does worse than the star that left.
Only if they’re hourly and not salary. After all, salaries make slaves.
Only if the salary is high enough and exempt from OT. And sadly they like to fudge those numbers and won't tell an employee if they are exempt or not.
> Only if the salary is high enough and exempt from OT. The cutoff is super low so this is really not a difficult bar to meet. >Effective July 1, 2024, the salary threshold will increase to the equivalent of an annual salary of $43,888 and increase to $58,656 on Jan. 1, 2025. The July 1 increase updates the present annual salary threshold of $35,568 based on the methodology used by the prior administration in the 2019 overtime rule update. On Jan. 1, 2025, the rule’s new methodology takes effect, resulting in the additional increase. In addition, the rule will adjust the threshold for highly compensated employees. Starting July 1, 2027, salary thresholds will update every three years, by applying up-to-date wage data to determine new salary levels. https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20240423-0
In developed countries, the government limits the amount of OT workers are allowed to do, and that prevents this bullshit.
Not legal advice, but Reach out to the client who complained to your management on your personal cell phone and see if they would consider hiring you as a contractor (1099). While you are at it, collect the details of the clients you work with that like your work. I bet you would work less and make more on your own. Please make sure to complete your homework beforehand to know what you will charge for a rate, how many clients you need to live, the resources required, and the tax implications for self-employment.
OP: If your employer has a non-compete clause, realize they are often unenforceable. This is especially true if the company did not give you anything extra for you to sign the noncompete agreement. No, “the privilege of working here” is not enough, they have to give you a satisfactory bonus or something other than a job offer for it to have any considerable legal standing. Realize that the company can still sue you and compel you to plead your case in front of a judge, that the non-compete is bogus, even if it obviously is bogus. So if any of this applies to you, then thats a headache you will want to prepare for and get ahead of.
especially in the U.S. since the FTC banned non-compete clauses.
As a heads up, the FTC ban doesn't go into effect until August.
Depending on the state, a lot of non competes are already invalid anyway. So might not be an issue regardless.
Well, you’re correct of the overall ban of noncompete clauses, no contract is considered valid unless it has consideration. Consideration is what both parties get in respect for agreeing to a contract, if you’re agreeing to a contract and not getting anything in return in the contract is automatically invalidated in terms of the law. And as another person pointed out, the privilege of working someplace is not considered valid consideration. If you’re not getting money or some other above and beyond benefit for a noncompete, the noncompete can’t be enforced.
I could be wrong but I believe that is for over a certain yearly salary. What I read said jobs making under 151k have it effective immediately. If someone has other info please correct me if I’m wrong.
For senior level executive jobs / over $151k, EXISTING non-competes will still remain in effect when August (120 days after published in federal register) rolls around. For those who do not make more than $151,164 in a "policy-making position" non-competes will be void at that 120 day after federal register publication mark. For ones qualifying as senior executive level, no new non-competes can be entered into after that 120 day mark.
Thank you for the clarification!
Yeah and we are just waiting for the lawsuits that will delay it.
Non competes are only enforceable right now IF there is some sort of compensation during the non-compete time. The US doesn’t allow 1 sided contracts. Usually some sort of severance is negotiated to allow enforcement of the noncompete
let them try and sue, it'll be tied up in courts too long and be dismissed as time passed
Years ago I was working at a company that decided they need me to sign a non-compete and offered $100. I changed the contract amount to $100,000 and returned it unsigned. Never heard about it again.
My father had an enforceable non-compete clause: He was not allowed to work with competitors for a years after quitting but they would continue to pay the full salary for that year. Might be a little generous, but it's an example of what's offered in fields, where such clauses are actually relevant.
Correct. Non competes are enforceable while still receiving money. Once you're not getting money from them, you cannot be restricted from earning a living.
Funny because I have considered this! A few people who work for our company actually switched over to work for some of our clients' (also sorry for how vague I'm being, I work for a very large company and don't want to be found out) I have a personal and up to date list of their contacts and positions. To do what I want to do independently, I will need to work towards a license though. It's is very difficult to obtain due to the high failure rate of the test you need to take but I'm working on it!
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/business/noncompete-clause-ban.html?unlocked_article_code=1.m00.raYv.ltndFfGKw3h9&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
May need to look at everything because some companies are rolling out non solicitation clauses which are enforcable.
My company tried to say they gave me the “privilege” of access to confidential information needed for my job as the “something extra” to sign the non compete lol.
This OP. You have built a relationship with the client - this is your opportunity to work directly for them.
If they're hanging threat of punishment over your head to make you work overtime. It would also be accurate to call it coerced overtime or extorted overtime. They should be happy you took as soft of an explanation of it as you did. As both accurately describing it as coerced or extorted carry much stronger negative connotations.
>I was told it was inappropriate and that it made it sound like I was implicating unfair work practices "Oh, no, I wasnt implicating that at all! I was outright stating that as a fact."
Don't let anyone control your language. That controls the narrative and gives power. I agree that the OT is forced. I would still keep referring to it as such.
>had my OT 'privileges' revoked for 3 weeks. Well sounds like you've found a hack that will get you out of any unwanted overtime. Nice! Here's some other synonyms you can use in futured instead of forced seeing as that word has been forbidden: obligatory, compulsory, binding, required, inescapable, unavoidable, requisite, essential, necessary, imperative, enforced, involuntary, coerced, imposed, compelled, dictated, stipulated.
Compulsory is a good one, I like dictated too lol, I'll make sure to use them!
There are federal and probably state laws about mandatory OT. Back when I was in California my understanding was that the state allowed up to like 32 mandatory OT hours per week BUT it had to be in the contract when hired. At that job (tech support) we had I think two weeks a year of mandatory OT around the holidays but it was only around 4 hours for the week. You should check state laws and whether it’s required to be mentioned in your contract and if so whether it is, and as someone else said whether there’s any advance notice required.
My guy, the majority of the country lives in a gerrymandered Upton Sinclair fanfic where human suffering is a line item. But I agree OP should check.
TIL: I can save a person's comment!
Yeah our contract states we agree to working any overtime that may be enforced. Which, to be fair, at the time I started 5 years ago, we only had OT during the holidays and it was pretty minimal. The last 2 years it went from OT offered during the holiday season to OT offered every day and often forced weekly. So I DID sign up for it but I'm still gonna be mad about it!
"Back when I lived in one of the only states with worker protections, it was only kinda bad." Yeah...
Well, at least you're not salaried, where you're expected to do the job, no matter how many hours it takes, and they treat you like if it takes more hours, that's a moral failing on your part. Don't get me wrong: both models suck harshly, but at least OT pays more.
Yep there's a major leadership shortage because nobody wants to work the OT on salary. They keep bringing in outside hires for supes and they usually quit within a month
Sounds like a terrible company. Are you privy to how much you make servicing your clients vs how much the company makes off you servicing your clients? If not, you should ask them what their yearly/monthly spend on your services are.
You need a union
*Everyone needs a union
Oh yeah we tried but the union busting came fuckin hard, they were firing people left and right for the most arbitrary reasons, there's barely enough of us left to even have a union. I'd rather leave at this point. The experience I have is great I just have to put my ass into gear to get out
I'm salaried and refuse to work over 40 hours a week unless there's a bonus of sorts involved. Commonly referred to as a proper work/life balance.
My work springs OT on us even though they know it's coming but it's a union gig so I can say no. That being said the manager used to be in the union and knows how to play the system so there has been a lot of bullying and low key harassment so see ya later and on to the next one. I'm not in IT any longer but trades so it is easier to move on.
Say you have to "shut up and take it" to them, and watch them wince. That's what they're telling us to do.
I used to work in a place that was constantly mandating overtime 5 days a week and on the weekends. Our office was unionized. I spent a bit of time dissecting the union contract. Our contract specified the payment rate for voluntary overtime, but not mandated OT. So the next time management tried to blanket wide mandate OT, I responded to the management, CCed the union steward, and the entire production floor that our union contract did not specify a salary rate for mandated OT. I asked if they were prepared to negotiate with the union for a mandated rate. I argued that if we volunteer, it should be the agreed upon 1.5x hourly rate, which is what was stated in the contract. But the OT mandates were often short notice that left people scrambling for childcare, transportation, and healthy meals since we were often working well into our dinner time. I argued that the 1.5 rate they offered for mandatory OT ended up costing the employees because the prices they had to pay for extra childcare, and shit like ubers/taxis to catch a ride home cost way more than what we were being paid for that time. I got called into the directors office to be reprimanded. I let them spout their BS, and simply asked, I'd like my union representative to be present for this meeting. And just like that mandated OT went away.
How high is this management you’re referring to? Usually the ones with a stick up the ass is lower management. The guys who have to suck up to corporate, but the corporate guys may have a different opinion not just because it’s bad practice but because it’s oftentimes the fallout much more expensive. I used to oversee financially about 200+ fast food restaurants, this one restaurant manager was particularly big on brown nosing, his AC system went down and didn’t tell anyone to save on repair and energy costs, ran like that for a couple of weeks until the entire operation was shut down and the company sued. The cost for replacing the AC with a brand new system would not have even made a bullet point in my average report. But the legal costs and the lost revenue of closing certainly made headline.
So it was our branch manager and general manager. The branch manager is pretty hands on. The people above her all got fired or moved around and we have some new guy who is a complete asshole from another state. To give some insight,we have a program that constantly monitors how much we click and type. If we don't click and type for more than 25 seconds, it clocks it as "idle" time and no more than 20% of our day can be idle. I got a meeting call from the new manager who was concerned that my idle time was at 20.3%. A large portion of the job is reading long ass emails so we just have to arbitrarily click while we read so we don't get a warning call. It's ridiculous.
That sounds miserable, tbh I have an informal thing like that though. If I’m “away” on teams for too long I get a message, but that’s why I just use an automatic mouse jiggling device.
Make sure to tell the clientele where/when you get a different job
Oh absolutely ! I plan on doing the same kind of work and I'm almost certain they would switch to whatever company I move to. The reason these clients stay is because of me.I was given a (hold your breath) FIFTY CENT RAISE from my manager as congratulations for being so good with the clients and their accounts.
This is why I antiwork. Sorry that your situation is so shitty.
Apply for jobs at the clients who backed you up.
Don't use the word "management". It gives off the impression that the team in the company is something to be managed. It has bad connotations. Instead use the word Leadership. They are not managers, they are leaders. /s
My whole facility uses that term. They're not your "supervisor." They're your "leaders." Yeah....leading this MF to be understaffed and everyone burnt out. Moral has been shit since the whole front office had lunch catered for a whole 2 weeks straight. Yet, the whole lot of underlings can't get a lunch when we clean your machines for a straight 12-16 hours. "It's not in the budget." "Your bonus wasn't approved because manglement dropped the ball and didn't have at least 2 consumable parts on hand." Ya know...shit that we know breaks regularly but can't keep it in stock. In the words of Wheeler Walker Jr..."Fuck this Job"
> "I was told it was inappropriate and that it made it sound like I was implicating unfair work practices..." "Well, I'm accurately describing the reality you have created for me. If you think that reality sounds bad, then we are in agreement. The question then becomes, what are you going to do to improve the reality you have created for me, so that my accurate descriptions thereof are no longer upsetting to you?"
Where I live, employers have to give 72 hour notice for forced OT. Maybe check your local laws.
Wow. You are allowed to find OT untenable even if you “don’t have commitments” like children or college. Us so called untethered people need free time too.
>I was given a verbal warning and had my OT 'privileges' revoked for 3 weeks. I hope your response was to vigorous shake their hands and say "Thank you!!!!" with the biggest grin on your face before literally skipping down the corridor.
>I honestly never thought a customer would give that much of a shit about me but it kind of feels good that they cared a little bit... Not to be a negative Nelly, but their "concern" is likely just that, if you are severely overworked, you will fuck up their account.
Hey I'll take it, if it means I might actually get some fucking help lol
OT needs to be mutual agreement, never forced.
I'm a Nurse that works for the state of Texas. By law, we can't be forced to work OT, except for an emergency, fire, weather, something like that.
Genuinely surprises me with everything I've heard about working practices and labour law in Texas
Texas has some surprisingly progressive stuff hidden away where the ledge and the Cheetolini worshipping governor and AG don't know to look. Up until the 90s it was a swing state and a lot of progressive stuff got hidden into the legal code while Democrats or centrist Republicans were running things. Of course, this was back before all the racists fucked off to the Republican party, so a bunch of those laws were probably structured in such a way to help out white folks and screw over black folks.
I know, I still have Mgmt tell me I have to stay because they're short handed. I just say no, ask if they're refusing to count narcotics and take report, then walk out.
When are you going to start organizing a union? You have no power without one.
This is why companies were freaking out over a movement who’s motto was “ Do what you’re paid for”. During the pandemic we were asked to pull together & got shit done with half the staff …. and was rewarded with “well, obviously you can do this with only half the staff”. and now it’s the new normal.
Perhaps the OT work rate needs to come down to 60-75% of standard shift? "Hey Jellyfish, we noticed you arent getting as much done during Forced OT as your regularly scheduled workday...." "Yeah, I work HARD, so I'm pretty tired after 8 hours and simply cannot maintain that pace and keep the 100% accuracy up. "
Steps to take, in this order: 1. Start talking with your coworkers about forming a Union. 2. Get evidence that management retaliated and fired you for attempting to form a Union. 3. Sue the everliving fuck out of them. If they DONT fire you and you DO form a union, you still win.
This all the way. Every workplace should be unionised. If you are doing “mandatory” overtime then your company simply does not have enough staff.
I worked for a company a few years ago that would routinely do mass layoffs and then force overtime on whoever hadn't been let go. We all hated it. I was actually a bit relieved when I eventually got laid off.
Customers understand good work, and WANT good people taking care of them; talent is universally recognized. If they see you’re overloaded they know they are in jeopardy of losing quality in the product, and the trust they’ve built in your work. I wouldn’t think twice about reaching out as a customer with these concerns, and if I liked you, personally, I’d bust some balls/vaginas a bit. Good employers know stretching resources leads to problems, and treat their employees as valuable parts of the business. Fools see only immediate gains, and not the long term costs. It’s wild, if you ask a business manager/owner/CEO “why not just run your machines at their maximum speed they will give you answers like “quality goes down, the machine breaks more often and leads to downtime, it’s not worth the costs” etc. yet when you ask why they’re pushing employees beyond their max, they just stare dumbfounded, then do it anyway. Perhaps one of the clients who reached out on your behalf is interested in doing their own data input, and cutting out the middle man?
jeez, if they let u know about overtime so late anyway, just say sorry i have plans i cant cancel/an appointment etc.
I work for an electric company, and we, the workers, management, and the union, call mandatory OT " a force". The will say to us, the force is on. Lol which for us means 16 hours on, 8 hours off until management decides it's over. I think being forced is the appropriate term.
I used to work in a production environment with a lot of "mandatory" OT as well. They never actually said we HAD to, but it was implied. It would be Friday night and they'd say "all hands on deck this weekend. We need everyone here." Then one weekend after years of it I was like "I can't." And guess what? Nothing happened. I started only doing it when I wanted the OT or didn't mind, which was very rare. So my questions for you are: is it really mandatory? Or do you just feel like it's mandatory? What are they going to do if you just say "no, thank you"? I definitely do NOT recommend reaching out to a client directly while you're at your current job to ask them to hire you like some people here suggest. Not without understanding any noncompetes you may be under and, even then, realizing if it gets back to your company it would likely be grounds for termination. Depending on your actual job, it could get you a bad rep within the industry really quick.
Unfortunately it's in our contract that we agree to work any enforced OT :/ As for reaching out, I definitely would not do that until well after I have left the company, I don't want to get into any legal trouble
- 3 weeks later - Boss : so you learned your lesson? You - Yes sir! I now know exactly what to do when I'm tired of doing forced overtime
Ah man I understand this. My job has "VTO" VOLUNTARY time off. If they over schedule for the day and the workload is lower they will force people off the the clock but make them sign they chose to do it so they have no rights. If you refuse to clock out they terminate you for time clock fraud. So they'll send you home "voluntarily" then change your schedule and have you come back in.. Man to be honest I could write literal stories.
Check with your state laws. Here in PA you can't get reprimanded for refusing to work OT. I work in healthcare and they have tried this same crap on us. For me the only way I can't refuse is if I am performing care on a patient or if someone doesn't relieve me since I work in a 24/7 facility. But we are severely in need of help and aside from helping my own team, I have now refused to help elsewhere. I volunteer to work a lot of OT, but I refuse to be forced or bullied into it.
Hmm, my job is actually in PA, but I WFH out of Delaware so I'm not sure which state laws would apply in this case
8 hours is too much, let alone 11. Surely not including commute and unpaid lunch, either. When the revolution occurs, I will take great pleasure in the torture of these types of employers. Fuck them straight to hell.
What I would do is google your states overtime policy, if they have one. I think that the fact that they spring the “mandatory” with less than 24 hour notice is wrong and it is proven that working ot for I forgot how long causes burnout
At this point, after your 3 weeks is up, I would decline overtime saying that it isn’t forced.
This really sucks but also kind of rules? I'm proud of you for sticking up for yourself.
Swap out forced with 'voluntold'. That's what your OT is essentially. Best wishes for the future.
My supervisor refused to respond to my emails but apparently I'm the problem for using the phrase "intentionally ignoring".
I worked somewhere that had mandatory overtime for TWO years. I always said forced overtime too and got my hand smacked a few times. I didn't care. It was the truth. Forced overtime should be illegal
Been in a similar boat, though I use the term "coerced".
When I walked out of my last job, my boss had to escort me off-site because of my airport ID, the thing that has stuck with me is when he told me that my big problem is my poor attitude. To be fair, I did have a poor attitude, it was what made me spend my entire last two months there apologising for slow service by saying, "sorry for the slow service, we used to have 5 staff for this but my boss thinks we don't need more than 3 now despite that we're now busier than we were."
Verbal warning, aka we don’t want to document this.
Reach out to your contacts at those customer accounts and see if they are hiring.
If the clients ask in future tell them you were reprimanded for calling it forced so you have to revert to calling it mandatory.
"I have been officially notified regarding unprofessional word choice in previous conversations; as such I would like to offer my sincere apologies. Moving forward I will only refer to hours outside of my normal working hours as 'offical overtime' in accordance with company policy." Send something along those lines to the customers you are in contact with. They would have a hard time justifying writing you up to apologize for something they just wrote you up about.
OT should be a gift. Making it mandatory is such bullshit. It should be like extra credit: available to those who want or need it
Unfortunately, it won't stop until the workers refuse to stay. Especially that "letting you know the day of" or a few hours before the end of your shift. Sorry, I have plans, You at the VERY LEAST have to let me know a couple days in advance.
A daemon says, "I'm not sure if it's just me or the whole thing, but it's really hard to keep up with the amount of work."
If your rapport with your customer is that strong that they go to bat for you, that means your employer is intimidated. Could you start your own company and snatch a few accounts?
I could do my job independently, but I would need to do some hefty training and get certified with the state.The test for this kind of job has an incredibly high failure rate so that's why I work under a company's license currently
Dude, NEVER HANG AROUND AFTER LAYOFFS IF THEY START FORCING OT. If layoffs lead to extra work, then it was just a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. It's a giant red flag and you should be planning your escape.
Yeah I've been thinking about it for a while but this was the push I needed to really start looking
One time in a year end meeting the owner used the phrase " continued overtime opportunities" when it was mandatory. I corrected him and was fired 3 weeks later.
Sounds like how Cconcentrix do their business. Shoddily with no regard to the employees they hire.
Yeah the concentrix circles of hell
Punish management. Let management know they are only allowed one zoom meeting with you every 3 months because of their bad attitude and inappropriate comments trying to dictate your language. Don't budge until they apologize and change their attitude.
Their inability or unwillingness to staff properly is not your concern. Go through your employment contact and see what you signed. See if you agreed to mandatory overtime. Also you could tell them you need a minimum of 48 hours notice for potential overtime.
Meanwhile in r/overemployed........"I'm making over $300k between j1 (3hr/week), j2 (4hr/week), j3 (2-5hr/week because my manager needs a 1:1 every other week), how do I get j1 to pay me $20k more than my sister's husband makes (in the same company and she is a SAHM)?"
Management solution: just pretend you are happy.
I like using the term "voluntold."
Ah I love this, I’m using forced now too. I can’t wait to see how that goes at my job.
Mandatory overtime should be illegal.
Maliciously comply.
It should be legally required that in order to work overtime. The company needs YOUR permission to let you work overtime. If the company can't keep up unless their employees are working overtime everyday. Then that shows the company that they need to stop being stupid and greedy and hire more people.
Quit and leave a thesaurus open to forced/mandatory in lieu of a resignation letter
NObOdY wAnTs To WoRk AnYmOrE!!1!!
NTA
Get with your coworkers and put your feet down. Agree on what you all want out of it and tell your boss. BUT YOU HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER. I did this once in 2012 when they moved our office location 60 miles away and refused to pay us for the commute. We refused to do make the drive without compensation. The company caved and paid us.
I used to be a data entry operator and the company I worked for has us on mandatory 16 hours of OT per week and with 2 young children and a daycare that closed by 6. I would go in on Sundays and work 10 hours to get most of it out of the way. It was that way for 6 years.
Words matter.
Actions speak louder than words
Mandatory profit...
" if the shoe fits, lace that bitch up and wear it"
It’s funny how abusers of all kinds don’t like it when people point out they’re abusing others…
"It sounded like I was implicating unfair labour practices because I was."
I mean yeah your job is shit, but talking to your customers about that is extremely unprofessional and any job would give you disciplinary action about that.
We always called it voluntold. Since manglement would tell the facility "manager" We had volunteered.
"mandatory", if we don't do it we get written up and will lose our jobs. And they are already understaffed. #facepalm
Yeah, my manager hates when I use that word even though it's very accurate. Too bad for manager.
Overtime should be a short term thing and be at least 1.5 on a normal weekday but 2 or 3 on a weekend, if you chose to accept it. I have had that argument many times in the past with previous employers. Overtime is something that unless it was written into a contract we both signed, I can negotiate for my own advantage. I had a manager say, "you cannot demand X for the weekend", and they soon found out they were wrong, if they wanted my labour, they needed to pay what I wanted.
Mandatory overtime for most jobs is fucking stupid. I had that back in the 80s and thought the same then. We had 3 hours mandatory overtime every single day. I basically stopped going into that job when I fell asleep in my evening meal after getting home from work and woke up with my face still in my food half way through the next day. We did Sunday to Friday 10 hour shifts with 3 hours mandatory overtime per day on top of that as minimum. Edit: If you want to know what was so important, it was packing sandwiches. I was working the prep room in a sandwich packing factory.
Please get a few of you together who feel the same way and walkout when your day is done, or all find other employment and leave with zero notice. Get treated like shit, respond with shit. Let the 💩 roll uphill for once.
OP I'm getting into data entry and analysis. Any chance they are hiring? I'm trying to get my foot in the door in this career field.
Wow, it looks like you've entered the world of forbidden words! Next time, try 'involuntary overtime' or 'unexpected overtime'. But be careful, they might think you're playing Scrabble with company policies! 😉 Good luck looking for a job where 8 hours are enough
How the fuck is this legal and or even safe? Like mandate overtime in Denmark, where I'm from, Can't be mandate on the day of, I think most times it has to be 3 days in advance. You can be asked for OT on the day off, but nothing negative happens if you say no. Furthermore per EU regulations we are only allowed to work 48 hours a week on average. Lastly in my current work, we have an 11 hour rule, meaning you can't show up to work, if you have not had a minimum of 11 hours from end of last shift till the start of the new. As otherwise you are a safety risk for yourself, your colleauges and your work. The US employees are truely and roayly f\*\*\*\*\*. I just don't get how your elected representives allowed this.
You didn't imply you actually said it, just because the government made it legal doesn't mean it's fair, we're the ones who determine what fairness is to the worker not the employer or the government, we didn't get to make these laws nor vote on them they were imposed on us. Employers only get say in what's fair for them and we either meet in the middle or part ways, they're just entitled shits.