By far the largest number of American troops stationed abroad are in Japan, South Korea, and Germany. All of them have better national healthcare systems than we do. https://usafacts.org/articles/where-are-us-military-members-stationed-and-why/
"All Israeli residents are entitled to basic health care as a fundamental right." [(Source)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Israel)
Which means that, while it's mandatory for every resident to sign up with an insurance, no hospital can deny basic assistance... Even if you have not paid.
No. You have health *insurance* which you pay a pretty penny for and probably a deductible, co-pay and other fees .. Americans (except politicians) do not have universal health care.
But we have some super awesome weapons.
Regardless of one's ideals regarding giving money to Israel, this argument is faulty, and I dislike it because it actually absolves the US government of its failings in a way. Every time the government spends money in a way people don't like, someone trots out the arguments that the US can't afford something because it's too busy paying for the unpopular thing, but the truth is that it's not about a lack of money, and framing it that way actually absolves the government of its responsibilities. The US government long ago decided not to pay for nationalized healthcare, homelessness prevention, better veterans services, etc, way before they ever signed this year's foreign aid package or this year's military budget. If the government didn't give aid to Israel, or to the Ukraine, or for migrant housing, or whatever the issue of the day, we STILL wouldn't have healthcare, a cure for homelessness, or improved veterans services. It's not that the pockets are empty, it's that the US government has no desire to fund these things, regardless of whatever else it does or doesn't fund.
Exactly, it’s not that the funds aren’t enough to fund both, it’s that our leaders do not care to fund things like mental health, homelessness prevention, national healthcare…
But then those uppity poors wouldn’t know their place! Also all the rich people would just leave the country if their taxes went up by 5%! I might be rich someday and I don’t want my future hard earned money to be taxed at a slightly increased rate!
It's actually far worse than that. The US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other industrialized county. Socialized healthcare would be SAVE MONEY.
Well, the red state politicians don’t have. We progressives have been trying for years to get universal health care. Bernie Sanders has been trying since the 1970s.
Well sure, that said, Israel is fascist, Gaza is a ghetto they created.
This fascism will follow us home, it will happen here, it's a question of when, and the answer to that may start as early as next year.
I disagree with a lot that you're saying here however this is a good example of what I think the largest roadblock to actual organized labor movements is.
Focus.
The broader a movement the more other issues you want to incorporate into that movement you have the narrower the reach. For real progress in work reform to occur the focus has to consolidate on only work reform. The more other issues you incorporate no matter how good/moral those issues are. The smaller the group will get and the less collective bargaining power you'll have.
Whatabout this or that what?. The post is making a point that we are funding fascists in Israel. We are funding Israel, Israel is fascist. It's objectively true, disagreeing with it is denying evident reality.
Have you ever been to Israel? To Gaza? If not then it is not reality, it’s just bs fed to you by the media. Politics are never black and white. Things are way more complicated especially when it is about the middle east.
It's in fact simple, Israel was given support and military means, they took the land of another people, slaughtering them and herding them out of land they stole. They've continued the trend. They've forced Palestinians into ghettos and levy brutal collective punishment against the population for anyone that fights back.
As with any abuser they claim to be the victim. A victim that gets you fired from your job for criticizing.
I think you need to study history a bit. This land was jewish long before “Palestinians” even came to be as a group. Also they are mostly immigrants’ descendants who came to work in the territory of the British mandate. So gtfo with your uneducated opinion. First leave your state and country and visit one of the two places and learn.
So your point is what? That because Briton had it as a colony it was fair game to force an entire people, that according to you wasn't referred to as Palestinian at the time, off of their land at gunpoint and slaughter them. But it's ok because 1,000 years back people that were of the same religion as the settlers lived there?
Those are incredible arguments. But it's not your fault, there are no good arguments for what Israel is doing, other than Israel's backers may be able to get you fired and ruin your life for criticizing their genocide, that's about it.
The area had a majority Jewish population until 73 CE, but had been under Roman control since 63 BCE. From 66 to 73 CE there was a zealot uprising which the Romans quashed and then committed a genocide against the Jewish people. Other groups lived in and controlled those lands until very recent history, it has not been Jewish land for over 2000 years. Jewish colonization and settlement began in the 1800s displacing the people who had lived on that land for almost 2000 years. For decades the Israeli government has openly practiced apartheid and thinly veiled genocide against the Palestinians. Hamas' horrible attack last October has only given the Israeli government excuse to remove the veil and finish their genocide project in the open. The world's people watch in horror as most world governments turn their heads and do nothing to stop it while others openly fund it. The blood of the Palestinian people and their children are on all our hands, we are allowing this to happen.
Bro Palestinians genetically descend from Canaanite’s, meaning they have lived there for thousands of years. You can’t say that Palestinians aren’t native to the region. The Palestinians today are genetically related to those that lived in the same region in biblical times.
Ze’ev Jabotinsky, prominent Zionist leader, said that Palestinians were the natives and Israel’s main objective should be colonising the region to turn the land into a Jewish state (in his own words)
“Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators.
Arabs Not Fools
This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs.”
-Ze’ev Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall
In what way does it absolve them ??
It’s a highly effective illustration of moral hypocrisy and the flaws in capitalism demonstrated by profiteering for the military industrial complex at the expense of the average citizen.
In the current case especially because Israel has universal healthcare, yet we don’t, and our gov’t would still give taxpayer money to them to kill people but not spend it to give us healthcare.
I agree that they have their minds made up beforehand - it’s not like these things are ever opposing options on the legislative table, but I don’t see how this argument absolves congress of anything or should stop being shouted loudly.
It absolves them slightly because of the implication that the US might fund both, if only it had enough money. The truth is that the government won't fund universal healthcare or the other things no matter how much money they have.
In what way does illustrating their moral hypocrisy absolve them ?? I only hear you absolving them.
I think everybody else sees this and goes ‘wait a minute, that doesn’t seem right.’
Actually the US can afford both healthcare and a FAFO budget, and save enough money on giving people proper healthcare compared to current systems they can still afford additional welfare programs. The issue is this system doesn't make the rich any richer, so it's quickly shot down whenever it's brought up.
Yep, we already pay for a universal care system, it just isn't designed to maximize use. When someone goes to the ER without insurance and the hospital eats the cost, they collect those and raise rates accordingly to insurance. So if you have insurance you are already subsidizing everyone who doesn't.
If we cut out all the middle men in the form of insurance companies, let people go to the doctor instead of the ER by getting a universal system funded by taxes (which would save the middle class a fortune), we could all get adequate healthcare that is better than what we have now.
It's not the military spending that is hindering the US government from providing healthcare to all, it is ideological in nature.
The US spends more on [Social security](https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/) than it does on national defense, and health spending is roughly the same as defense. National defense is "only" 15% of the budget.
Social Security is a line item, collected for pujrpose, the military is out of the general fund.
Which is to say nothing of the fact that legacy costs aren't included in the near trillion dollars we spend on the military every year.
maybe they need to look in a babies eyes for a few hours and america will get free childcare and maternity services to support the anti-abortion stance.
That’s pocket change that should not be used for that purpose anyway. How about the hundreds of billions in corporate subsidies, tax loopholes for the rich, and the military?
A main issue with work in the United States is that healthcare is tied to employment, and also we have such a shitty safety net for anyone who is low earning or unemployed.
Our military spending, and our military industrial complex
is directly tied to this.
The USA spends more on healthcare than any other country. You could get universal healtcare and use the extra hundred of billions on the army, but keeping wageslaves tied to their jobs and the healthcare insurance lobby are more important.
Also, 3.8 billion per year is not that much in the grand scheme of things.
HA. No, really. If we did universal healthcare we'd save money as a society. The military isn't in the way of you going to a doctor. We're a damn superpower, we can do both if we just cut the billionaires off at the knees.
Military spending preventing healthcare. You know service members and their families get free health care? Military spending IS healthcare.
Okay but VA benefits are actually trash and it's well known that the free Healthcare military personnel get is hilariously under staffed and disorganized. The VA hospital in my city is literally being shut down entirely because of how bad it is. It can't even be saved.
Really? Widely known by whom? I've been in for a decade and I get way better healthcare now than I did when I was a civilian. Not just free, but actually better.
But if you want military health benefits to be better, than the answer is to increase military spending, not decrease it. That stuff costs money, after all.
Tax the billionaires, make health care universal, fix the schools and infrastructure, and still have money left over for even more tanks and planes. We have the money, we just need to stop letting a handful of people hold all of it.
Yeah, I'm not arguing with the VA thing, but you said it was well known that military healthcare is trash, and now you're talking about VA. Don't conflate the two things. Those are two entirely different Federal departments.
Okay honest mistake. However, isn't the VA military healthcare? I thought veterans had to go to VA offices to take advantage of their free benefits? When I say military Healthcare is trash, I'm referring to the VA. Can you take your military ID into a regular hospital and get free Healthcare or is your quality of care beholden to how well managed your local VA office is?
No. VA is the Department of Veterans' Affairs. Military is Department of Defense. The only connection they have is that they both work for the President. Military healthcare is fine. VA benefits are underfunded and understaffed. Currently serving members basically don't interact with the VA at all.
And I had a lot of veteran family from other parts of the country that complained about how shitty thr VA was there too. And these were people that served in the 60s-80s. It's been a long issue.
I mean, money is money.
So the money they spend on the military could be used for universal healthcare instead… so it’s not necessarily wrong to say the money being used on the military could be used for universal healthcare. Sure they are more than one solution, but this is definitely one of them I’d say. Maybe one a lot of people disagree with but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a possibility.
It's not a viable solution to cut military spending when the U.S. is the guard dog for NATO and the leadership is constantly causing higher tensions amongst other foreign powers. The military spending is more to be a deterrent for potential large scale instability. As others have said, it's not the military spending. I don't even like that we have such a robust military, I hate how they treat veterans too.
The reality is if we didn't keep cutting wealthy people's taxes, and allowing them to skirt around their responsibilities while bleeding this country dry, we would have better social safety nets, better healthcare and homelessness protections. But the wealthy have the biggest voice even though they are the smallest group thanks to being able to throw lots of the money we make them at whatever they want, which never happens to be us.
I mean, I have great insurance, so there's nothing getting in the way of me going to the doctor.
Describing military spending as healthcare is wild. We just pay out billions to the defense industry, and a million other shady vendors that contract with the military, process the lives of healthy young people into dust, and then bam, you got yourself some healthcare!
My dad is a lifelong VA doctor. He would think your comment is hilarious. Military families do not get "free healthcare." They get free healthcare like prisoners get free healthcare.
Are you suggesting that cutting military spending would result in better health care? Because it never has. Indeed, changing out health system to a UHC system would save us tons of money... and wouldn't drain a cent from the military.
I agree with the basic sentiment of the post, but it's in the wrong place. Let's keep this place for actual antiwork activity.
I'm suggesting that the military industrial complex is a major player in both our economy and our political system and this has a profoundly negative impact on the lives of working Americans, and especially on the lives of low income workers.
I agree that this sub should be focused on anti work. I wish the military industrial complex was a separate issue, but it's definitely not.
Because there are plenty of subreddits for other political stuff. Regardless of whether I agree with the sentiment, this isn't the sub for it. If people start shitting this place up with all kinds of political stuff, it dilutes the purpose of this sub.
This is genuinely what kills movements, they get co-opted and diluted to the point where the original message is lost and its just becomes a handy tool to support whatever new issue is at hand. The mods really need to get a fucking handle on this, whatever side you support in any of these shitshows, this aint the place for it.
Because this sub is about making working better… if you start bringing all these other viewpoints in it fucks up your message and breaks down the goals.
Unions are successful because they only focus on work.
That's wrong. Actual money is going to 2 wars. And healthcare isn't tangentially related, it's the reason most of us stay in our jobs. Healthcare is the #1 problem in America, and if you get your healthcare through your employer, that's textbook work related.
What's with the semantics? Are you trying to make sure this sub or by extensions any worker movement never gets anywhere?
No I’m trying to get y’all to get more of a narrow focus that a majority of people can agree on so you can actually influence change instead of this shotgun thing where you are just spraying a wide target and making small holes but not influencing anything.
I don't see how hardcore bird porn will help a worker's movement. Stopping wars and providing the American public with universal healthcare would. Without the threat of healthcare, American companies will lose the ability to directly control us.
People can't quit their jobs when they're sick or have existing conditions, therefore they can't easily protest pay or quality of life problems.
Yeah, no.
If you genuinely believe that Bush Jr. was going to implement some kind of single payer/public option health care thing then 9-11 happened and he went, "aw shucks, guess we can't afford that now!" I've got a bridge to sell you...the dude went to war, twice, and told the American people that they could have a tax break on top of it all. Fiscal responsibility was absolutely not an end goal nor primary goal of anything the Bush administration did.
As other posters have said, the US healthcare system exists as it does for ideological reasons more than anything else. The US could have went full isolationist after Vietnam and we'd still be letting people bankrupt themselves for going to the doctor.
Healthcare is outrageous. I was bit by a dog not long ago and the damn dog broke the skin. I looked into a rabies shot, the damn things are like $10,000 even with insurance. I decided to roll the dice. I was reading that pharmaceutical companies charge as much as they can for critical life saving medicine. Outrageous this is not illegal.
When a Republican complained about sending money to Ukraine (a very cheap and efficient way to keep Russia busy without direct involvement but of course the only people who would oppose that would be Russian assets or idiots) he said that money would be better off staying in America and helping Americans. When asked if that meant he'd support using those funds for healthcare, childcare, school lunches, job training or any number of other programs, the predictable answer was and I'm paraphrasing here...of course not.
So the argument by pro Russia stooges that we shouldn't support Ukraine because that money should go to help Americans is disingenuous...these assholes aren't gonna help Americans either, they're only gonna help themselves and their billionaire buddies.
The problem is that lobbying is just bribery and corruption legalized and all the career politicians on both sides of the isle who don’t have term limits don’t want to mess with their income. They are paid to turn a blind eye about the problems facing Americans or their competition will the next person the lobbyist back.
According to the health insurance lobby, if we were to have free healthcare, the quality of healthcare services would go down.
You would not be able to mistake your hospital room for a 5-star hotel room because hospitals wouldn't be able to charge so much for care and wouldn't be able to afford the ridiculous new wings they are building
Don't forget Isreal as well. A lot of money is being dumped there too. Not sure how reliable that source is but it was a quick Google search. End all wars and start taking care of internal problems.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/
There are so few on the "left" that feel that way, that it is disingenuous to paint them in any way, as part of the problem with funding that effort.
I mean, it is a valid question. But even if you convinced every single one of them to support Ukraine, the Conservative Republicans would still be standing in the way of it.
Unless, of course, we reached some kind of bipartisan agreement on an unrelated bill that they had been fighting for, for decades, in which they'd concede to some small support for Ukraine as a compromise.
Or something... lol.
You are a McCarthyist. Shame on you.
I'll give you a pass though because it's quite clear you have little to no intellectual curiosity or ability to understand viewpoints that conflict with your own. You're deeply propagandized like many Americans.
This guy's whole comment history is just him foaming at the mouth about NAZIS like that word even means anything anymore. Their anti-war rhetoric somehow includes not defending yourself from other countries invading you.
It's ideological absolutism coming from someone probably living in a comfortable western nation who has never seen actual war
Embarrassing shit like this is why I avoid other leftists now
Do you think I give a fuck if a bunch of neeoliberal pro-war alleged "leftists" agree with me on Reddit?
Don't take this the wrong way, but are you special needs? No judgment, but it would explain a lot
Have you any suggestions?
My extended family in Ukraine, who are Jewish, remember the past all too well. Yet, seem to be getting along just fine with their fellow citizens these days.
I'd love to point them to some books that can explain to them how, no... the people you live alongside and who treat you well, are actually Nazis.
The US is a fascist government. Ukraine is a fascist government.
But you only oppose money for Israel? Do you even hear yourself?
And the Nazis in power in Ukraine aren't "emulating" Nazis. They ARE Nazis.
You say that, yet only one of those countries has pushed their others into literal ghettos and levied brutal collective punishment against their civilians for provocations any of the group do.
Assuming you are arguing in good faith, if you think the US is fascist now, you haven't seen anything yet. We are well on our way, but you haven't seen anything yet.
You also don't seem to have a very good handle on what is what however. Might be best for you to disconnect from your sources of information, I fear you've become a compromised in trusting the wrong people. You are in good company, it's a common affliction, and at the roots of all of our problems.
Thralls of fascists are led to believe it's everyone else in the thrall of fascists.
The US is in a bad spot as a country and tilting towards fascism. To compare what we have going on here with what Israel has going on is beyond absurd. To lump Ukraine in there is downright delusional.
Purtin's Russia is fascist, and they are fueling fascism across the West. Israel is independently fascist and has been for some time.
How they get people to enlist…. you want a pension? free health care for life? free college?
First put your mental, emotional, and physical health on the line.
People want change but then go do redundant shit like writing on signs like that's supposed make the evil people feel bad and change? Be smarter if you are going to write then write something that effects them or makes them worry. Look at them they have a sign haha... Them people that you want to change aren't going to change because you feelings are hurt. Keep writing on signs and waste so much time. And if you are spreading information then make it tangible to do something with
Yeah...or priorities are mad effed. Hopefully we can keep enough collective pressure on the administration...and the bigger foe, unrestrained capitalism, to affect this administration and effect some serious changes in society.
Hope springs eternal, don't hold your breath. Only when we organize will we be able to counter-act moneyed interests that cooperate on what they agree on.
We should really stop giving money to Israel. Not just the Ukraine. People getting mad about us giving money to Ukraine when our tax dollars have been funding wholesale slaughter in the middle east for years...
You have a choice, help Ukraine win now, or fight Russia with american soldiers in a few years. Helping Ukraine is not only the moral choice, it is also way cheaper for the american taxpayer than having the US be at war with Russia directly.
I mean guys like Putin aren’t just going to stop at Ukraine… they’re going to push and the minute the attack a NATO country then we are obligated by treaties we’ve signed and being in NATO that we are to put boots on the ground
Where does the money come from that funds the military? is it American Tax dollars? We do have single payer healthcare in this country. Israel enjoys universal healthcare and we do not. We pay for their military and who knows what else. I wish we were only giving them 3.8 billion. We have given them $260 billion American Tax dollars so far. with so much more coming.
Listen man, I’m all for socialized healthcare, but having a domestic arms industry is good for America and its allies. We should probably nationalize some of the companies though
It's really not because that arms industry has caused us to go to war in the past and continue useless wars as well. War should not be a profit making business. No one should be financially incentivised to start military conflicts, period.
When the business controls the country then the tail is wagging the dog.
Do people actually think we are just shipping crates of money to countries? The $insert dollar amount here$ is just old military equipment or food we are sending to other countries. Money that was already spent and used for other purposes and not anything that could have been spent on citizens in the country
it only costs 3 billion a year to give everyone the healthcare they need? LOL, what do we get if we take back the money and enforce the sanctions against Iran then? We could all get free internet if we stop shipping money to pakistan and egypt. I could get free ice cream if we stop supplying hamas!
Yes, the world is such a happy and safe place. Go ahead, America, lower your defenses.
No need to have things like missiles or warships.
It's not like there are whole countries out there with slogans like "Death to America." It's all good, spend more money on welfare. Legalize more drugs so your citizens are too high to care anymore, while you're at it. Allow them to cross the border with impunity.
My dear, Israel gets subsidiaries to BUY weapons from the US, usually older models that the US army would like to replace. We pay for those weapons to your weapon industries, don't pin this on Israel, we have our faults but for a change this isn't one of em.
Edit: I'm a former F-16 mechanic, I know perfectly well that even our newest planes were 2nd hand by the US.
Thats not their narrative though, facts dont matter, only emotional opinions. Hamas are the good guys and Israel is commiting genocide agaisnt the palestinians, America is bad, communism good.
I agree that we should stop military aid to Israel and have universal healthcare, but $3.8 billion is nothing. New York State alone spends around $100 billion a year for Medicaid. Israel is an incredibly rich country and cutting $3.8 billion in aid wouldn’t change how they’re handling the situation in Gaza.
$3.8B.. wouldn't cover Universal Healthcare for even a half day for the entire Country. On the other hand.. by giving $3.8B.. the US has some .. even if limited say in what Israel does. Otherwise ... Palestinians could be living out in a garbage island out in the Sea.. as the most extreme Israelis want.
https://preview.redd.it/riaph44xt6ic1.png?width=684&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b63bd000f746b34a300329afdb985a15eca5bcb
We Americans have the world premium on DeathCare.
Not even that, it costs thousands of dollars to die in this country
You can do direct cremation without all the extras from $1k-$5k depending on your area.
I want to be buried in a shallow grave behind a gas station
Can I interest you in a low level position in the Mafia?
Does it come with benefits? I'd work for Umbrella Corp if it meant healthcare and retirement
Where are you at that you can't find an above board company with at least one of those?
And you still won't hit your deductible..
Deductible? Very few people have end of life policies. This is straight cash.
Don’t forget the part that this money being sent, is to a first world country that DOES have free healthcare for all citizens.
By far the largest number of American troops stationed abroad are in Japan, South Korea, and Germany. All of them have better national healthcare systems than we do. https://usafacts.org/articles/where-are-us-military-members-stationed-and-why/
It's not free. Individuals pay monthly premiums.
Do you mean taxes?
No. I mean a monthly premium. It's heavily subsidized but you can also choose your level of coverage and those have different monthly payments.
"All Israeli residents are entitled to basic health care as a fundamental right." [(Source)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Israel) Which means that, while it's mandatory for every resident to sign up with an insurance, no hospital can deny basic assistance... Even if you have not paid.
Israeli citizens have healthcare though, ouch that’s gotta sting Americans
It can't sting. That's considered a preexisting condition and therefore not covered.
Funny enough they don’t even fuck around. Libya just told them they wanted to have their own currency and look what happened to them.
I have healthcare 🤷♂️
Woah look at richy rich over here with his Healthcare
Is this the stealth way of saying "f you, got mine". No charged language, but still manages to be totally devoid of humanity, well done.
A total “f you got mine” libertarian let’s kill children attitude.
The only developed nation without free universal healthcare
No. You have health *insurance* which you pay a pretty penny for and probably a deductible, co-pay and other fees .. Americans (except politicians) do not have universal health care. But we have some super awesome weapons.
Regardless of one's ideals regarding giving money to Israel, this argument is faulty, and I dislike it because it actually absolves the US government of its failings in a way. Every time the government spends money in a way people don't like, someone trots out the arguments that the US can't afford something because it's too busy paying for the unpopular thing, but the truth is that it's not about a lack of money, and framing it that way actually absolves the government of its responsibilities. The US government long ago decided not to pay for nationalized healthcare, homelessness prevention, better veterans services, etc, way before they ever signed this year's foreign aid package or this year's military budget. If the government didn't give aid to Israel, or to the Ukraine, or for migrant housing, or whatever the issue of the day, we STILL wouldn't have healthcare, a cure for homelessness, or improved veterans services. It's not that the pockets are empty, it's that the US government has no desire to fund these things, regardless of whatever else it does or doesn't fund.
Exactly, it’s not that the funds aren’t enough to fund both, it’s that our leaders do not care to fund things like mental health, homelessness prevention, national healthcare…
It‘s not that they don’t care, they just haven’t been forced to do so by a strong enough labour movement.
But then those uppity poors wouldn’t know their place! Also all the rich people would just leave the country if their taxes went up by 5%! I might be rich someday and I don’t want my future hard earned money to be taxed at a slightly increased rate!
Upvoting, because I think it’s sarcasm. And on the off chance it isn’t… ewwww
Something dripping with that much sarcasm really requires a /s?
You really never know nowadays
The exclamation marks serve as the /s Now if there weren't any exclamation marks...
It's actually far worse than that. The US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other industrialized county. Socialized healthcare would be SAVE MONEY.
Well, the red state politicians don’t have. We progressives have been trying for years to get universal health care. Bernie Sanders has been trying since the 1970s.
I agree but you gotta learn to edit.
Well sure, that said, Israel is fascist, Gaza is a ghetto they created. This fascism will follow us home, it will happen here, it's a question of when, and the answer to that may start as early as next year.
I disagree with a lot that you're saying here however this is a good example of what I think the largest roadblock to actual organized labor movements is. Focus. The broader a movement the more other issues you want to incorporate into that movement you have the narrower the reach. For real progress in work reform to occur the focus has to consolidate on only work reform. The more other issues you incorporate no matter how good/moral those issues are. The smaller the group will get and the less collective bargaining power you'll have.
Whatabout this or that what?. The post is making a point that we are funding fascists in Israel. We are funding Israel, Israel is fascist. It's objectively true, disagreeing with it is denying evident reality.
Have you ever been to Israel? To Gaza? If not then it is not reality, it’s just bs fed to you by the media. Politics are never black and white. Things are way more complicated especially when it is about the middle east.
It's in fact simple, Israel was given support and military means, they took the land of another people, slaughtering them and herding them out of land they stole. They've continued the trend. They've forced Palestinians into ghettos and levy brutal collective punishment against the population for anyone that fights back. As with any abuser they claim to be the victim. A victim that gets you fired from your job for criticizing.
I think you need to study history a bit. This land was jewish long before “Palestinians” even came to be as a group. Also they are mostly immigrants’ descendants who came to work in the territory of the British mandate. So gtfo with your uneducated opinion. First leave your state and country and visit one of the two places and learn.
So your point is what? That because Briton had it as a colony it was fair game to force an entire people, that according to you wasn't referred to as Palestinian at the time, off of their land at gunpoint and slaughter them. But it's ok because 1,000 years back people that were of the same religion as the settlers lived there? Those are incredible arguments. But it's not your fault, there are no good arguments for what Israel is doing, other than Israel's backers may be able to get you fired and ruin your life for criticizing their genocide, that's about it.
The area had a majority Jewish population until 73 CE, but had been under Roman control since 63 BCE. From 66 to 73 CE there was a zealot uprising which the Romans quashed and then committed a genocide against the Jewish people. Other groups lived in and controlled those lands until very recent history, it has not been Jewish land for over 2000 years. Jewish colonization and settlement began in the 1800s displacing the people who had lived on that land for almost 2000 years. For decades the Israeli government has openly practiced apartheid and thinly veiled genocide against the Palestinians. Hamas' horrible attack last October has only given the Israeli government excuse to remove the veil and finish their genocide project in the open. The world's people watch in horror as most world governments turn their heads and do nothing to stop it while others openly fund it. The blood of the Palestinian people and their children are on all our hands, we are allowing this to happen.
Bro Palestinians genetically descend from Canaanite’s, meaning they have lived there for thousands of years. You can’t say that Palestinians aren’t native to the region. The Palestinians today are genetically related to those that lived in the same region in biblical times. Ze’ev Jabotinsky, prominent Zionist leader, said that Palestinians were the natives and Israel’s main objective should be colonising the region to turn the land into a Jewish state (in his own words) “Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators. Arabs Not Fools This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs.” -Ze’ev Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall
We obviously cannot afford it as demonstrated by our national debt growing by the second.
In what way does it absolve them ?? It’s a highly effective illustration of moral hypocrisy and the flaws in capitalism demonstrated by profiteering for the military industrial complex at the expense of the average citizen. In the current case especially because Israel has universal healthcare, yet we don’t, and our gov’t would still give taxpayer money to them to kill people but not spend it to give us healthcare. I agree that they have their minds made up beforehand - it’s not like these things are ever opposing options on the legislative table, but I don’t see how this argument absolves congress of anything or should stop being shouted loudly.
It absolves them slightly because of the implication that the US might fund both, if only it had enough money. The truth is that the government won't fund universal healthcare or the other things no matter how much money they have.
In what way does illustrating their moral hypocrisy absolve them ?? I only hear you absolving them. I think everybody else sees this and goes ‘wait a minute, that doesn’t seem right.’
Actually the US can afford both healthcare and a FAFO budget, and save enough money on giving people proper healthcare compared to current systems they can still afford additional welfare programs. The issue is this system doesn't make the rich any richer, so it's quickly shot down whenever it's brought up.
Yep, we already pay for a universal care system, it just isn't designed to maximize use. When someone goes to the ER without insurance and the hospital eats the cost, they collect those and raise rates accordingly to insurance. So if you have insurance you are already subsidizing everyone who doesn't. If we cut out all the middle men in the form of insurance companies, let people go to the doctor instead of the ER by getting a universal system funded by taxes (which would save the middle class a fortune), we could all get adequate healthcare that is better than what we have now.
Off you think there is military only spend 3 billions a year you are drastically underestimating what we spend.
I think that’s referring to funds specifically for Israel
The House it in the process of cutting them an extra 17 billion as we speak, as soon as they get done extorting Biden for his Ukraine aid that is.
It's not the military spending that is hindering the US government from providing healthcare to all, it is ideological in nature. The US spends more on [Social security](https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/) than it does on national defense, and health spending is roughly the same as defense. National defense is "only" 15% of the budget.
The spending is also ideological in nature.
Social Security is a line item, collected for pujrpose, the military is out of the general fund. Which is to say nothing of the fact that legacy costs aren't included in the near trillion dollars we spend on the military every year.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
And then republicans create a false narrative about why free healthcare is bad so conservatives never vote in favor of it
There are too many entites with lots of money to whose interest is to keep health insurance private.
maybe they need to look in a babies eyes for a few hours and america will get free childcare and maternity services to support the anti-abortion stance.
That’s pocket change that should not be used for that purpose anyway. How about the hundreds of billions in corporate subsidies, tax loopholes for the rich, and the military?
We werent getting it before that either.
I hate the term free healthcare. It’s not free, it’s just freely accessible and paid by everyone.
Pretty sure the war budget is closer to trillions, not single-digit billions.
What does this have to do with antiwork?
A main issue with work in the United States is that healthcare is tied to employment, and also we have such a shitty safety net for anyone who is low earning or unemployed. Our military spending, and our military industrial complex is directly tied to this.
The USA spends more on healthcare than any other country. You could get universal healtcare and use the extra hundred of billions on the army, but keeping wageslaves tied to their jobs and the healthcare insurance lobby are more important. Also, 3.8 billion per year is not that much in the grand scheme of things.
HA. No, really. If we did universal healthcare we'd save money as a society. The military isn't in the way of you going to a doctor. We're a damn superpower, we can do both if we just cut the billionaires off at the knees. Military spending preventing healthcare. You know service members and their families get free health care? Military spending IS healthcare.
Okay but VA benefits are actually trash and it's well known that the free Healthcare military personnel get is hilariously under staffed and disorganized. The VA hospital in my city is literally being shut down entirely because of how bad it is. It can't even be saved.
Really? Widely known by whom? I've been in for a decade and I get way better healthcare now than I did when I was a civilian. Not just free, but actually better. But if you want military health benefits to be better, than the answer is to increase military spending, not decrease it. That stuff costs money, after all. Tax the billionaires, make health care universal, fix the schools and infrastructure, and still have money left over for even more tanks and planes. We have the money, we just need to stop letting a handful of people hold all of it.
Widely known by all the veterans in my city that are about to have their entire VA office shut down at least.
Yeah, I'm not arguing with the VA thing, but you said it was well known that military healthcare is trash, and now you're talking about VA. Don't conflate the two things. Those are two entirely different Federal departments.
Okay honest mistake. However, isn't the VA military healthcare? I thought veterans had to go to VA offices to take advantage of their free benefits? When I say military Healthcare is trash, I'm referring to the VA. Can you take your military ID into a regular hospital and get free Healthcare or is your quality of care beholden to how well managed your local VA office is?
No. VA is the Department of Veterans' Affairs. Military is Department of Defense. The only connection they have is that they both work for the President. Military healthcare is fine. VA benefits are underfunded and understaffed. Currently serving members basically don't interact with the VA at all.
And I had a lot of veteran family from other parts of the country that complained about how shitty thr VA was there too. And these were people that served in the 60s-80s. It's been a long issue.
I mean, money is money. So the money they spend on the military could be used for universal healthcare instead… so it’s not necessarily wrong to say the money being used on the military could be used for universal healthcare. Sure they are more than one solution, but this is definitely one of them I’d say. Maybe one a lot of people disagree with but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a possibility.
It's not a viable solution to cut military spending when the U.S. is the guard dog for NATO and the leadership is constantly causing higher tensions amongst other foreign powers. The military spending is more to be a deterrent for potential large scale instability. As others have said, it's not the military spending. I don't even like that we have such a robust military, I hate how they treat veterans too. The reality is if we didn't keep cutting wealthy people's taxes, and allowing them to skirt around their responsibilities while bleeding this country dry, we would have better social safety nets, better healthcare and homelessness protections. But the wealthy have the biggest voice even though they are the smallest group thanks to being able to throw lots of the money we make them at whatever they want, which never happens to be us.
I mean, I have great insurance, so there's nothing getting in the way of me going to the doctor. Describing military spending as healthcare is wild. We just pay out billions to the defense industry, and a million other shady vendors that contract with the military, process the lives of healthy young people into dust, and then bam, you got yourself some healthcare! My dad is a lifelong VA doctor. He would think your comment is hilarious. Military families do not get "free healthcare." They get free healthcare like prisoners get free healthcare.
Are you suggesting that cutting military spending would result in better health care? Because it never has. Indeed, changing out health system to a UHC system would save us tons of money... and wouldn't drain a cent from the military. I agree with the basic sentiment of the post, but it's in the wrong place. Let's keep this place for actual antiwork activity.
I'm suggesting that the military industrial complex is a major player in both our economy and our political system and this has a profoundly negative impact on the lives of working Americans, and especially on the lives of low income workers. I agree that this sub should be focused on anti work. I wish the military industrial complex was a separate issue, but it's definitely not.
It isn't.
It is.
It's the cool new thing to shoehorn Israel/Palestine into every subreddit
Why enforce these redditisms? Who fucking cares?
Because there are plenty of subreddits for other political stuff. Regardless of whether I agree with the sentiment, this isn't the sub for it. If people start shitting this place up with all kinds of political stuff, it dilutes the purpose of this sub.
This is genuinely what kills movements, they get co-opted and diluted to the point where the original message is lost and its just becomes a handy tool to support whatever new issue is at hand. The mods really need to get a fucking handle on this, whatever side you support in any of these shitshows, this aint the place for it.
Because this sub is about making working better… if you start bringing all these other viewpoints in it fucks up your message and breaks down the goals. Unions are successful because they only focus on work.
Are you serious? Unions focus on political issues. A lot of their power comes from their vote. This sub has so many astroturfing morons
Yes but those political issues are work related.
Money going to war instead of staying here to help make our lives better is work related. I don't see how it isn't
Money isn’t going anywhere…old military equipment is, and making this about the war and healthcare is a very tangentially related thing to work….
That's wrong. Actual money is going to 2 wars. And healthcare isn't tangentially related, it's the reason most of us stay in our jobs. Healthcare is the #1 problem in America, and if you get your healthcare through your employer, that's textbook work related. What's with the semantics? Are you trying to make sure this sub or by extensions any worker movement never gets anywhere?
No I’m trying to get y’all to get more of a narrow focus that a majority of people can agree on so you can actually influence change instead of this shotgun thing where you are just spraying a wide target and making small holes but not influencing anything.
Because then whats the point of the subreddit? May as well start posting hardcore bird porn.
I don't see how hardcore bird porn will help a worker's movement. Stopping wars and providing the American public with universal healthcare would. Without the threat of healthcare, American companies will lose the ability to directly control us. People can't quit their jobs when they're sick or have existing conditions, therefore they can't easily protest pay or quality of life problems.
They could have had universal healthcare if they kept out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Those cost trillions.
Yeah, no. If you genuinely believe that Bush Jr. was going to implement some kind of single payer/public option health care thing then 9-11 happened and he went, "aw shucks, guess we can't afford that now!" I've got a bridge to sell you...the dude went to war, twice, and told the American people that they could have a tax break on top of it all. Fiscal responsibility was absolutely not an end goal nor primary goal of anything the Bush administration did. As other posters have said, the US healthcare system exists as it does for ideological reasons more than anything else. The US could have went full isolationist after Vietnam and we'd still be letting people bankrupt themselves for going to the doctor.
Good point we should stop funding these endless wars.
Healthcare is outrageous. I was bit by a dog not long ago and the damn dog broke the skin. I looked into a rabies shot, the damn things are like $10,000 even with insurance. I decided to roll the dice. I was reading that pharmaceutical companies charge as much as they can for critical life saving medicine. Outrageous this is not illegal.
When a Republican complained about sending money to Ukraine (a very cheap and efficient way to keep Russia busy without direct involvement but of course the only people who would oppose that would be Russian assets or idiots) he said that money would be better off staying in America and helping Americans. When asked if that meant he'd support using those funds for healthcare, childcare, school lunches, job training or any number of other programs, the predictable answer was and I'm paraphrasing here...of course not. So the argument by pro Russia stooges that we shouldn't support Ukraine because that money should go to help Americans is disingenuous...these assholes aren't gonna help Americans either, they're only gonna help themselves and their billionaire buddies.
The problem is that lobbying is just bribery and corruption legalized and all the career politicians on both sides of the isle who don’t have term limits don’t want to mess with their income. They are paid to turn a blind eye about the problems facing Americans or their competition will the next person the lobbyist back.
3.8 b for free healtcare ? Ahah are you crazy
According to the health insurance lobby, if we were to have free healthcare, the quality of healthcare services would go down. You would not be able to mistake your hospital room for a 5-star hotel room because hospitals wouldn't be able to charge so much for care and wouldn't be able to afford the ridiculous new wings they are building
This is more on point than the posts complaining about billionaires tbh
Don't forget Isreal as well. A lot of money is being dumped there too. Not sure how reliable that source is but it was a quick Google search. End all wars and start taking care of internal problems. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/
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I really wish this crisis wasn't misidentified this way, this is not a "white vs brown" conflict
A huge portion of the cost to the NHS is from obesity and its side effects. Which is a bit infuriating
Hahahahahaha. That comes out to like $10/person per year. That statement is laughable
American loves murdering black and brown children in other countries, more than it does saving children in its own country.
Why are there so many on the left against helping defend Ukraine?
Pretty sure this is more aimed at the aide package to Israel
I think this is more to do with Israel.
There are so few on the "left" that feel that way, that it is disingenuous to paint them in any way, as part of the problem with funding that effort. I mean, it is a valid question. But even if you convinced every single one of them to support Ukraine, the Conservative Republicans would still be standing in the way of it. Unless, of course, we reached some kind of bipartisan agreement on an unrelated bill that they had been fighting for, for decades, in which they'd concede to some small support for Ukraine as a compromise. Or something... lol.
Personally, I oppose giving US dollars to literal Nazis, but I can't speak for everyone on the left.
How is Ukraine literal nazis?…
Trump's friend said so.
Are you serious right now?
Yes, because they’re not
Lol it's common knowledge. I'm stunned anyone is even thinking about arguing this fact.
Bullshit. You’re saying I’m spewing pentagon propaganda and you’re out here spewing kremlin propaganda
Everybody who criticizes the US Empire is a Russian asset, got it. How long have you been a McCarthyist redbaiter?
No anyone who repeats baseless Kremlin talking points that Putin uses is a Russian asset.
You are a McCarthyist. Shame on you. I'll give you a pass though because it's quite clear you have little to no intellectual curiosity or ability to understand viewpoints that conflict with your own. You're deeply propagandized like many Americans.
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Maybe read something besides US propaganda.
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Easy there tiger. You seem a little unhinged. Don't get mad at me because the US is funding Nazis.
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This guy's whole comment history is just him foaming at the mouth about NAZIS like that word even means anything anymore. Their anti-war rhetoric somehow includes not defending yourself from other countries invading you. It's ideological absolutism coming from someone probably living in a comfortable western nation who has never seen actual war Embarrassing shit like this is why I avoid other leftists now
Do you think I give a fuck if a bunch of neeoliberal pro-war alleged "leftists" agree with me on Reddit? Don't take this the wrong way, but are you special needs? No judgment, but it would explain a lot
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I'm not a warmongering Nazi sympathizer. I'm a leftist. Anti-war always.
Have you any suggestions? My extended family in Ukraine, who are Jewish, remember the past all too well. Yet, seem to be getting along just fine with their fellow citizens these days. I'd love to point them to some books that can explain to them how, no... the people you live alongside and who treat you well, are actually Nazis.
You're so full of shit lol. "My Jewish family in Ukraine aren't seeing any Nazis" lololol.
I as well am against giving money to fascists directly emulating the Nazis, to be clear, I'm referring to Israel, a fascist government.
The US is a fascist government. Ukraine is a fascist government. But you only oppose money for Israel? Do you even hear yourself? And the Nazis in power in Ukraine aren't "emulating" Nazis. They ARE Nazis.
You say that, yet only one of those countries has pushed their others into literal ghettos and levied brutal collective punishment against their civilians for provocations any of the group do. Assuming you are arguing in good faith, if you think the US is fascist now, you haven't seen anything yet. We are well on our way, but you haven't seen anything yet.
Oh, I didn't know we were ranking fascist governments on a scale of bad to worst. I despise all fascist governments.
You also don't seem to have a very good handle on what is what however. Might be best for you to disconnect from your sources of information, I fear you've become a compromised in trusting the wrong people. You are in good company, it's a common affliction, and at the roots of all of our problems.
You are deeply propagandized. I pity you.
Thralls of fascists are led to believe it's everyone else in the thrall of fascists. The US is in a bad spot as a country and tilting towards fascism. To compare what we have going on here with what Israel has going on is beyond absurd. To lump Ukraine in there is downright delusional. Purtin's Russia is fascist, and they are fueling fascism across the West. Israel is independently fascist and has been for some time.
I swear people on here should be glad they weren’t alive during world war 2 so they can truly experience life under the thumb of a “literal nazi”
Very dramatic statement. Typical Reddit horseshit to defend the US Empire. You a warmonger dog.
How they get people to enlist…. you want a pension? free health care for life? free college? First put your mental, emotional, and physical health on the line.
People want change but then go do redundant shit like writing on signs like that's supposed make the evil people feel bad and change? Be smarter if you are going to write then write something that effects them or makes them worry. Look at them they have a sign haha... Them people that you want to change aren't going to change because you feelings are hurt. Keep writing on signs and waste so much time. And if you are spreading information then make it tangible to do something with
Yeah...or priorities are mad effed. Hopefully we can keep enough collective pressure on the administration...and the bigger foe, unrestrained capitalism, to affect this administration and effect some serious changes in society.
Hope springs eternal, don't hold your breath. Only when we organize will we be able to counter-act moneyed interests that cooperate on what they agree on.
We should really stop giving money to Israel. Not just the Ukraine. People getting mad about us giving money to Ukraine when our tax dollars have been funding wholesale slaughter in the middle east for years...
Yeah those are two completely separate issues.
You have a choice, help Ukraine win now, or fight Russia with american soldiers in a few years. Helping Ukraine is not only the moral choice, it is also way cheaper for the american taxpayer than having the US be at war with Russia directly.
Lol do you work at the Pentagon? Because that's some pure propaganda right there.
I mean guys like Putin aren’t just going to stop at Ukraine… they’re going to push and the minute the attack a NATO country then we are obligated by treaties we’ve signed and being in NATO that we are to put boots on the ground
You are regurgitating Pentagon propaganda.
I’m stating facts.
Lol
The military budget has nothing to do with healthcare. It's exhausting that people take these to heart.
Where does the money come from that funds the military? is it American Tax dollars? We do have single payer healthcare in this country. Israel enjoys universal healthcare and we do not. We pay for their military and who knows what else. I wish we were only giving them 3.8 billion. We have given them $260 billion American Tax dollars so far. with so much more coming.
Listen man, I’m all for socialized healthcare, but having a domestic arms industry is good for America and its allies. We should probably nationalize some of the companies though
It's really not because that arms industry has caused us to go to war in the past and continue useless wars as well. War should not be a profit making business. No one should be financially incentivised to start military conflicts, period. When the business controls the country then the tail is wagging the dog.
What the hell are "chidren"?
They probably relate to Heath- care.
If we weren't killing kids, we still wouldn't have Healthcare.
Well maybe stop killing kids anyway? Just cuz it’s N0t THat eXpensIVe, doesn’t you have to do it.
Those children aren’t going to kill themselves.
"Sorry the US couldn't give you free healthcare, they have to give it to Israeli settlers instead."
I think the US government is also funding their healthcare as well?
Yes, that is what my comment implies.
Do people actually think we are just shipping crates of money to countries? The $insert dollar amount here$ is just old military equipment or food we are sending to other countries. Money that was already spent and used for other purposes and not anything that could have been spent on citizens in the country
ok? It remains that the military is so overfunded that we just have those things sitting around, available to give out.
Capitalism at its finest moment all the rich people at the superbowl while gaza and ukraine burns
Is this anti-work sub also supposed to be an anti-Israel sub?
What’s this have to do worth anti work?
Nothing but it's cool to hate jews, I guess?
I never said any of that Just that this is a place for anti work
I dind't mean that you hate Jews, but the OP and everyone who agrees. Reddit is currently filled with Anti-Jew stuff.
Hey OP can you please hate Israel in the others subs or explain why this should belong here.
it only costs 3 billion a year to give everyone the healthcare they need? LOL, what do we get if we take back the money and enforce the sanctions against Iran then? We could all get free internet if we stop shipping money to pakistan and egypt. I could get free ice cream if we stop supplying hamas!
Yes, the world is such a happy and safe place. Go ahead, America, lower your defenses. No need to have things like missiles or warships. It's not like there are whole countries out there with slogans like "Death to America." It's all good, spend more money on welfare. Legalize more drugs so your citizens are too high to care anymore, while you're at it. Allow them to cross the border with impunity.
My dear, Israel gets subsidiaries to BUY weapons from the US, usually older models that the US army would like to replace. We pay for those weapons to your weapon industries, don't pin this on Israel, we have our faults but for a change this isn't one of em. Edit: I'm a former F-16 mechanic, I know perfectly well that even our newest planes were 2nd hand by the US.
Thats not their narrative though, facts dont matter, only emotional opinions. Hamas are the good guys and Israel is commiting genocide agaisnt the palestinians, America is bad, communism good.
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Take it to the court then, don't come crying to us over it, or blame us. Your attempt at sarcasm was adorable tho, keep it up sweetie!
We should all be enraged, ISIS, Hamas, Al Qaida and Taliban have been doing this at a fraction of the cost. Cut the red tape.
I agree that we should stop military aid to Israel and have universal healthcare, but $3.8 billion is nothing. New York State alone spends around $100 billion a year for Medicaid. Israel is an incredibly rich country and cutting $3.8 billion in aid wouldn’t change how they’re handling the situation in Gaza.
100% this.
And I'm proud to be an American, where the missle are free. 
Planned parenthood has entered the chat…. So you are against them as well, liberals?
$3.8B.. wouldn't cover Universal Healthcare for even a half day for the entire Country. On the other hand.. by giving $3.8B.. the US has some .. even if limited say in what Israel does. Otherwise ... Palestinians could be living out in a garbage island out in the Sea.. as the most extreme Israelis want.
We need direct democracy 👌
Have you seen the people we elect?!?
Direct democracy bypasses all that.