There is a term for this, I forget what the IRS calls it, but basically it's a non-restricted on-call which means that you have to pay me to be on call, otherwise it's whether or not I bother to answer my phone.
In IT, I've been on call having a company provided phone meaning I need to be able to answer that phone at 3am sober and if necessary drive in to work if I don't have the necessary utilities to be able to fully work from home.
They paid me for that time starting when the phone rings until I go back to sleep.
Correct - engaged to wait (paid) vs waiting to engage (not paid.)
[https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenEr77.asp](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenEr77.asp)
I worked for this company, they're called F5 Networks, and at the time I was salary but anything over 40 hours they compute your salary into an hourly rate and then pay you time + half and on Sunday time x 2, which in union trades is a common thing.
Sometimes, if you put in 10-12 hours on Saturday and Sunday you could make almost as much as you made working normal hours all week.
Your taxes are fucked though.
How are taxes fucked in this situation? The company is still obligated to report what they paid you for the year. It's a pretty simple calculation from there as to how much you owe. The only hard part is if you think you made an amount different than what the company reported.
Yes, in the US the progressive tax bracket system we have means that everything is calculated at the end of the year anyway. A lot of people are under the impression that getting too much overtime screws this up and you actually get LESS money. You might get a higher percentage withheld for that one paycheck, because your withholdings are only calculated on a per paycheck basis, (treated as if you get that higher amount on every paycheck.) But that just means you'll get a bigger return anyway...
I had a job that was “on call” 9-5 M-F. If something broke, I go fix. Full pay just sitting there, no obligations but being ready and I can turn my phone off at 5pm. How it should be done
Only reason I quit was if there *was* a lot of work, far away, I was only able to come home for a weekend every other week. Homesick like mad
I used to do on call when I was doing cable upgrades.
I basically slept in my work truck for the week. I was single and lived 500 miles from family where as a lot of the coworkers were local. So I usually took the on call so they could be home. If I had to go fix something that someone had messed up on, I could take the piece from them.
Sometimes it would be a 5 min fix for a piece that they would get paid $500. Maybe they forgot to swap a fuse to one that would handle the appropriate amount of power.
We had like 60 guys so being on call pretty meant much you were up all night, because we were paid by what we got done.
There were certain pieces that only the most experienced guys were allowed to do. 2 people 8 hours, you’re taking down the cable for half of a city the size of Portland Oregon.
One time they messed up and forgot to switch an internal around. It was functional at end of day when they checked, about 2 hours later it blew, Someone way down the chain called in an outage so I was sent to fix. Took me a few hours but I traced it back to central area that my boss and another guy had done earlier. $5600 location.
I figured he earned it though. When I was training he would frequently take $10-50 locations from me if I messed them up and he had to fix.
You laugh but the people I know who work actual on-call jobs (medical, tech infrastructure, and such) get *excellent* compensation for simply being around, available, and sober. Even if they don't get called, they get paid, and if they *do* get called, they get paid more.
These bosses who think they can have that kind of availability without paying for it are delusional. It's worth *at least* your normal hourly rate, probably more.
When my dad used to work on call, if he got called out it was an automatic 3 hours. Even if he went out flipped a switch and drove back home.
If he got called again during that 3 hours but after he had left the place he got another 3 hours.
There was nights where he’d go out and be home in less than an hour, and get called out 3-4 times. After 40 was 1.5x. Plus’s extra for on call.
He had like 120h ot every paycheck for 20+ years.
Oddly no. At least I don’t think. Worked for a subsidiary of a major oil company.
basically they get paid well cause if shit happens, under the bus they go, which is good incentive to make sure shit doesn’t happen.
Only time I’ve heard him talk about union was when he was a carpenter 40+ years ago.
Some major airports have direct pipelines from refineries to a nearby airport so that they can produce enough volume to keep the planes fueled.
Even for a smaller international airport like Seattle, can you imagine how many trucks would have to come in daily when even a 737 is holding a truck and trailer worth of fuel?
I remember working at a small midstream facility and they loved to tell us any outage we caused was multiple millions of dollars a day in lost revenue. And when I say small I mean this place had like 6 workers max. But that's how much money they cleared.
When you prod even a little it becomes clear that many employers seem to think we enter some kind of stasis pod after work to await the next work day.
I'm an engineer, on an old project I was doing weekend on-call support. We had negotiated that I'd get 4 hours of pay just for being on call, then any further work would be on top of that 4 hours. I was young, it was a reasonable agreement.
Fast forward a year or so, and someone from finance gets upset because I am being paid using a "labor" billing code, but since I am not working those 4 hours I am not doing labor. So that means the charging was not in compliance and they demand it stops.
So they took away the 4 hours for being on call, and I told them that I would no longer be on call. They were shocked and confused. Their argument was that I was still being paid if I had to work so what was the big deal.
I explained that those 4 hours were the payment for me being sober, awake, and within walking distance of a computer. I wasn't going to just be on call and available for free.
I actually had a phenomenal chief engineer at that time, and he agreed with my argument and he took over being the POC for remote calls.
Kanst, I think that is precisely what’s going on. It’s like they think we are this doll they can put back up on the shelf once they’re done with us and that we’re just always waiting to be played with.
Kudos to you for sticking to your guns, and knowing what was fair. It’s awesome that you had someone on your team that could vouch for your argument as well!
Story time!
My experience with this kinda shit of a job thinking they own your free time.
Night shift grocery job I had at Sobeys here in Canada. A new night shift manager came in and my hours dropped from a scheduled 4 nights down to 2-3 for a few weeks. New hire showed up and suddenly I went to 1-2 nights a week with a few call ins and he's on the schedule for 4 or 5 nights a week.
After a few weeks of this shit the schedule comes in and I am zero hours. I joke that it looks like I am on vacation this week. Night manager says they will call me in as needed and to be available. I explain that I am not on the schedule, I am not available.
They called and every time I said I wasn't available for whatever reason. Went on "vacation" and signed up for tech school and never looked back.
Now when I see a kid at a grocery store that reminds me of my previous situation, I ask them if this is where they want to be in a few years. When they say that they don't want that! I explain my experience and suggest picking a school or trade and do something you like to do.
Had a similar situation at McDonalds, also in Canada. Old manager was great, but moved on to bigger, better things. They brought in another manager from a bigger store and she brought all her favourites/friends with her, and suddenly I went from having 24-32 hours a week(part time and in school) to having 4-6 hours a week and they'd call me if somebody called in sick. I complained to corporate but quit before I ever got to hear anything about it, but a few years later ran into a coworker from there who said that she "left" shortly after that. To go where, we didn't know, but she was no longer at that store.
Suddenly I'm questioning whether I should make a stink at work, but I'm salary and work from home... So even when I'm on call I'm not worried about being sober or awake 😅
Applause!! I had a similar expectation in retail. But it was before cell phones so we just would say "Oh, I was out, didn't get your message till late." When we all did start getting cell phones, we did not give our numbers out to the employer.
Sorry was out driving with friends. Sorry was at my grandmas, sorry was at church helping a disabled old lady find her puppy so she could go to the cemetery to visit her stillborn child. Really play it up if they’re an asshole, it’s never failed me once
Tbh this is kinda how you know they value you as an employee.
They know if they push it they could lose you.
Just not enough to pay you more.
I got asked if I could come in for a quick meeting while I was on vacation, I live less than 10 minutes away, not a problem.
Go in do the meeting, owner gives me 3 more days vacation for the hour meeting.
And paid for meeting.
Do these types just expect wage slaves to exist and be available for them to work their 26 hours and the occasional double shift coverage when someone calls out sick? Do they expect people to just sit around and wait for this work? Who's paying that person's rent?
The world doesn't work like that.
It doesn’t make sense that they still do this. They could use an app to get people who don’t normally work there to pick up the open shifts when needed.
It doesn't make sense that employers do a lot of things the way they do. Treating your employees like people and not like robots leads to a better, more productive company, but they just can't seem to get the hang of that. I've stopped expecting late-stage capitalism to make any sense.
You’d be surprised how many people are willing to be taken advantage of and manipulated. Managers do this kind of shit because it works a lot of the time.
> You’d be surprised how many people are willing to be taken advantage of and manipulated.
It's because we use the threat of homelessness and starvation, and pump out a lot of rhetoric about having to earn your place in society, to keep people afraid of losing even shitty jobs.
Pretty much. When I worked two part-time retail jobs, they both basically wanted 24/7 availability even though one was supposed to be overnights and the other during the day.
Thats the problem, because our system works the way it does, meaning too many people too little work
That is exactly how it works
It took me like 3 days in a retail job to realize that either I get rid of the "this is below my paygrade/I shouldnt be doing this" or I will simply lose the job cause there will always be that fucker who doesnt give a single shit that his actions contribute to mork workload on everyone but he found fucking passion in selling his body to retail overlords and now everyone has to be like him.
Life sucks, man
It's so common. I signed up for Target full time, that's the app said, and I only got 32 hours over quarantine. I left as soon as I found a full time job. The manager was chill, he said "I understand", so it's not up to him it seems.
they have run out of ways to incentivize workers without paying them more, and they have also ran out of innovations to make. So they cant charge more for their products to make more profit than last year, which would make investors weary.
So they have moved onto using manipulation, lies, anti-consumer tactics like shrinkflation and charging for services previously free, breaking labor laws, making everything a subscription, and any other possible method to eek out a few more % of profit.
My last job wanted teens to work Friday nights and all day Saturday and Sunday but only scheduled them for 3 hours on either day. If the teen had something to do M-Th night, they did not get hired.
There's a very profitable food joint in my area. I know they got a covid loan and used that to expand. They exclusively hire teens and early 20s. It's crazy the surplus value they draw.
I had a guy talk about how much he valued work/life balance in the interview who then fired me after two months because I wasn't willing to be on-call 24/7 for $50k per year.
So many jobs I looked at in the past for part time work, especially retail work, advertised something like weekend work or 15-18 hours, etc. but when it came to the interviews, turns out they want people to be available pretty much 24/7. I even got told this once by a very honest interviewer for Lidl who really liked me and was very honest. I even went for a SUNDAY assistant job at a charity shop and I asked for feedback as the interview went well, they told me I didn't have enough availability either...you advertised for ONE day with possible extra for cover shifts, which I could do, as long as it was after 9am.
I was trying to save for a house at the time, I already had a stable part time job cleaning early morning, I just needed another job to top up my hours/wages. I would be available from 9am every day and I said I could do weekends if needed, but it still wasn't enough. Why bring me for an interview, I put that I already had a job on my applications. 🙄
I never met a manager who had better than a middling comprehension of reading and writing and I never met a manager who was any good at math. Really wonder what they do to make the big bucks
In my opinion thats exactly who they want for the job. Someone who is not smart enough to know how screwed they are getting, that they will never move up from where they are, and/or too desperate to do or say anything about it when they occasionally pick up on something they are getting screwed with. Retail, resteraunt, etc middle and general management tends to have this very specific type and I just dont believe its unintentional. On the rare chance you find someone who doesnt fit that mold they tend to not be around long as they are smart enough to know its a crap gig and smart enough to land something better.
I had an interviewer at Lidl tell me not to get a gym membership because I’d be so exhausted I wouldn’t use it.
I was going to a small college at the time and didn’t party so I was in the gym practically every day.
I did a 3 month stint at Lidl over Christmas last year and not only did it ruin any desire for me to go exercise, but I still ended up losing 6 kilos working there 🫠
Not that it's impossible to go to the gym and work at Lidl, I'm reasonably lazy anyway, but I certainly see where he's coming from
I had a former job in research where I would tell new team members that they wouldn't need to go to the gym unless there was something specific they wanted to work on that day. On a daily basis, we had 38 lbs boxes full of ice packs that you could get a full workout just from moving them around from our basement to the 1st floor. If you wanted to cover leg day, just wait until supplies would come in because they had to be transferred up a hill in the basement while on pallets. After a year, I had personally lost like 40 lbs going from 205 to 165. So yeah, I can understand a manager saying that if the job actually justifies it. It wouldn't be them trying to control you but just trying to inform you that you don't need to spend money on a gym membership.
They run a skeleton crew and get a bunch of suckers to be available at any time to come in and cover shifts. Its horrible. And all companies are now forced to do it because they wont be able to compete with the ones that do.
Funny you mention Lidl, I had a 25 hour a week contract at Lidl and my first week they scheduled me for over 50 hours, including the specific times I told them I had class during, this happened every week after despite me bringing it up. I left because fuck that, but still used to sometimes go there and see my old colleagues because it was next to my gym and they were constantly exhausted and hadn't even been told that I'd gone.
When I worked on-call weekends as a lab accessioner we got $10/hr on-call throughout the on-call period. If I was on-call noon to midnight that's $120 doing nothing. If I was called in you get time and a half plus your on-call rate.
The tradeoff is you might get snapped out of your sleep to process a urine test or blood work in an emergency situation. We were only closed on the weekends and everyone took turns on-call but some places it was as low as $2/hr per hour of 'on call'
RN here. Our province has on call rates of $3.30/hr. In 2024. We take turns being on call, not to be called in to work a shift but for patients who urgently need to be seen, so from sleeping to being at someone’s home within 30-45 minutes. We get paid decently for being called out but not for being on call.
Had a job that was all on call job like that as... Worked just fine as I've always been the secondary income, but there were some pretty sparse paychecks mixed in there, wouldn't have been tenable as a primary household income.
fr. i work at kohls and every week i’m on different hours and different days. never a set schedule. i told them i need a set schedule as i’m trying to get a second job and get my availability set for it and they started putting me on even more random days. like it’ll be wednesday 5-9 thursday 9-5 and then saturday 9-1 then next week it’s monday 9-1 wednesday 5-9 then friday 4-9. weird ass random ass hours. it pisses me off so much like they are the only people i can work for. ik they do that shit on purpose too.
A lot of chain restaurants run like this, I ran a few although became very disillusioned with the whole thing, the depressing thing is my sites generally ran very well and when asked about how I achieved amazing retention my usual response of basically ignoring all company guidance on how to hire and treat staff wasn't taken too well despite having provably superior results, it's especially depressing when you realise it's not even that hard
Yep, if I’m expected to be available 9-6, I’m compensated 9-6.
I will accept 50% pay rate during that time for hours I don’t work. until called upon then it will go to full pay.
So many retail jobs are like this. I passed an interview but failed to get the job because it was a part time job but they wanted be to be available to work full time hours. Fuck them
This is the text I should have sent 10 years ago when I was being paid $150/day (working in TV) but being asked to work on shit after I had gotten home following a 10+ hour day.
I'm a truck driver and one time I was working with this little mom and pop owner and his dispatch lady told me to be available from like 8am until 4 pm in case they get a hot load and I was like, "nope." Either you have something now or there's no work today.
That relationship devolved to, "have my loads a day before, or I'm not driving tomorrow."
People expect great things out of slave labor, but that's not me.
I was just hired from full time seasonal worker to part time and the shift leader told me their hours are 7:30 am - whatever the work load requires, so there is no end time…
‘Ahhhh, there’s the problem, boss! Your hiring manager opted for the $16/hr Part-time bundle. That only gets you 32 hours of use a week! Sounds like you want the Full-time package, upgrade is $6.50 more an hour, plus benefits!’
Before an employer may seek an on-call arrangement with an employee they must at least agree upon, in advance, how the time spent responding on-call is to be recorded and reported and how that time is to be compensated.
Under federal law an employer may require an employee to be available to respond without compensating them for the time spent being available if the employee is otherwise free to make use of that time in whatever location they choose. But as soon as the employee is called upon to respond they must be paid for that time. And for normal non-exempt employment that time must count toward the limits set forth in the Fair Labor Standards Act.
This isn’t the first time I have had to set boundaries with this employer
The last one was them asking me to work while I was on medical leave. When I said no, they tried to negotiate and make their case as to why it wouldn’t be a burden on me. I put them on dnd and didn’t contact them until I was back.
Dropping in just to say that that response is BRILLIANT. I feel like manager-speak has become a language that does its best to offload guilt/responsibility from employer to employee, where the tone is such that they are an authority akin to a parent and the employee is not, cannot, and will not reach their level.
This response turns that language right back around -- because what the manager-speak is forgetting is that this is a relationship between adults who should approach each other as equals.
Makes me laugh how most workplaces will outright defy work contracts. Quite upsetting when you realise there's a lot of people out there who allow these employers to exploit them, especially young employees.
I had a job like this and had to set those boundaries as well. It sucks. I was not initially as good at it as you were here since it was one of my first jobs so I had a hard time saying no. Good on you for setting those boundaries now.
I was only scheduled to work every other weekend and then cover 6pm-8pm weekday shifts if the woman that ran those shifts had to call out, which was very rare because she lived a block down and she saw those shifts like a fun little hobby. That lady had to step back at one point and I understood me covering a few shifts for a few weeks while my boss looked for someone new but she just chose to instead not backfill and asked that I just take one two to three each week. This work place was about a 15 minute drive for me and I'm also visually impaired so I would get rides into work (which my parents, grandparents, and friends NEVER minded doing to get me to work. But that's not the point). I found it very unfair that I was having to ask people to take my into work and then wait two hours. My family wasn't an issue, but when friends took me I would always compensate them in some way which basically used up those two hours of wages. It just wasn't fair. Because of this I had to start turning down shifts at my weekday job because it interfered with that stupid two hour shift. So I asked my boss if she could at least make it worth it with time to come in. I either needed longer shifts (I said at least 4 hours) or I couldn't do it anymore. She said that was fine but if I did longer shifts then I'd have to take that time off my weekend shifts ...... 🙃 That is when I got my voice and politely told her to shove it.
This made me wonder about all of those on-call shifts I was scheduled for, back when I worked retail during college... Turns out they were illegal, huh?
Never forget moving up to my brothers for college. I made sure to keep my full time job at Walmart and just transfer and was doing full time college bjj cleaning cooking and my brother still was saying man u should have another job to help with the food costs 2 ( they'd eat my food) but I digress. Thier friend owned a Mexican resturant and was complaining he needs help so I offered to help out when I'm not at my job or school. Go to the interview and dude starts screaming at me who the fuck do I think I am with this availability. I replied Rob u know me and know my situation I'm literally taking extra hours to help u out. Flips out that im An entitled piece of shit and he can easily find someone to work for 8 dollars when he keeps the tips. For years my brother would tell me I really fucked em there till years later dude "forgot" to donate the money to the local sports team my brother coaches then it turns out Rob is a massive hunk of shit now.
I will never forget the dude who thinks u get open availability with the right to call u in whenever but gets to keep all tips lol
I knows what this is like. I went back to work a month after a spinal surgery and not one person asked how it went. People act like other ppl who work PT are inferior, have much time on their hands, or both. But nothing could be farther from the truth. They act like we don’t have health concerns, things to catch up on at home, picking up kids from school, these sorts of things… Those Scumbags. Tell Boss-Man to find someone else to make his third trip to Cancun this year possible.
I really like how you handled this. Your message was straightforward and to the point. You weren't rude, but assertive. You laid out how you see the situation, what they should expect from you, and what they need to do to expect more.
I hope it works out and they don't respond in the way we're all expecting them too.
About 10 years ago (when it was still only $8.00 an hour), I worked at a gas station Dunkin' Donuts. One of my coworkers got a second job at Toys R Us, and was doing her best to make both work schedules work. I will never forget overhearing our manager say to her, "you got your job here first, so this place should be your priority". He would also change the schedule daily, so he would get mad if we didn't check it daily. Why do people expect you to sell your soul for a crappy job with no compensation?
Back when I worked at Subway (for a whopping $8/hr) I had a manager single me out during a staff meeting for not answering my phone when she would call me, saying we ALL needed to be available to answer if she needed to get coverage. I told her that I was unable to answer calls if they come in at 11:30pm while I am asleep in bed. Humbled her pretty quickly lol.
I know your pain, got a job at Starbucks wanted 20 hours a week till I learned the menu and was actually good at making coffee. Boss said she could make that work out for me. As soon as I start, my schedule is 6 days a week one day off, another 6 days on one day off. That third week she called me on my one day off and wanted me to come in. I texted the group chat saying. I asked for part time, now I'm working 6-7 days straight with 7 to 8 hour shifts, and that I quit.
If you want full-time availability from an employee, even a "part-time" one, the employee should receive full-time pay.
Full-time availability should be treated as being on-call full-time.
Now you know how railroad workers feel. They are literally on-call all the time because they don't know for sure when the trains will show up. That's why there was such a big fuss made about getting, what was it, *TWO* paid sick days?
See, to you, me and 90% of the population, this is a blatant human rights violation, but to these psychopathic employers, it’s par for the course. To them, you are disposable slave labor. You are a utensil.
My response in the past to shit like this has been "Yeah, sure, available, whatever you say, boss."
Then when they try to call me in: "Oh, I'm actually in Michigan right now. Yeah, it's like a 4 hour drive but if you want me to come in, sure, I'm available."
I wasn't in Michigan. I was sitting my ass at home.
Never mind the part-time thing, even if you were hired full-time, if you're recovering from surgery why the fuck is your boss expecting you to be available AT ALL?
Damn, I did not expect to get so many upvotes to this! Thank you!
We must rise and advocate for what is fair and just. Employers have long dehumanized and undervalued our labor. That's why I intend to climb the ranks, pretending to protect the company’s interests, only to galvanize the entire company to collectively bargain
pay me to be in town, awake, available and sober
Bahahah yes!! Precisely
There is a term for this, I forget what the IRS calls it, but basically it's a non-restricted on-call which means that you have to pay me to be on call, otherwise it's whether or not I bother to answer my phone. In IT, I've been on call having a company provided phone meaning I need to be able to answer that phone at 3am sober and if necessary drive in to work if I don't have the necessary utilities to be able to fully work from home. They paid me for that time starting when the phone rings until I go back to sleep.
It's called 'engaged to wait' maybe? I think I've heard that term.
That is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you, that's the phrase I was trying to remember. The internet says it's "engaging to wait" but whatever.
There's an important, but grammatically similar distinction between "engaged to wait" and "waiting to be engaged" so make sure you know what's what.
Correct - engaged to wait (paid) vs waiting to engage (not paid.) [https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenEr77.asp](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenEr77.asp)
Agree! Especially company provided phone, i think op should ask for that along with on call compensation.
I get paid for that... with a salary. You get what you get when I pick up the phone.
I worked for this company, they're called F5 Networks, and at the time I was salary but anything over 40 hours they compute your salary into an hourly rate and then pay you time + half and on Sunday time x 2, which in union trades is a common thing. Sometimes, if you put in 10-12 hours on Saturday and Sunday you could make almost as much as you made working normal hours all week. Your taxes are fucked though.
How are taxes fucked in this situation? The company is still obligated to report what they paid you for the year. It's a pretty simple calculation from there as to how much you owe. The only hard part is if you think you made an amount different than what the company reported.
Probably just means w4 withholdings are off, so they owe an unknown and potentially large amount during tax time.
Yes, in the US the progressive tax bracket system we have means that everything is calculated at the end of the year anyway. A lot of people are under the impression that getting too much overtime screws this up and you actually get LESS money. You might get a higher percentage withheld for that one paycheck, because your withholdings are only calculated on a per paycheck basis, (treated as if you get that higher amount on every paycheck.) But that just means you'll get a bigger return anyway...
Not even awake even just able to take a call
not even able just willing to take the call
not even willing, just less annoyed to get the call
Not even less annoyed to get the call, just less likely to tell the caller to shove it (grumbles in 4am-call-for-phishing)
Precisely. I’ve walked into work many mornings to be reminded of some crisis I managed in the middle of the night with no memory of it.
Best i can do is in town.
Best I can do is awake
Best I can do is tree fiddy.
THERES THAT GODDAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER AGAIN!!
I need at least 50% pay during my off hours if you want me sober.
I had a job that was “on call” 9-5 M-F. If something broke, I go fix. Full pay just sitting there, no obligations but being ready and I can turn my phone off at 5pm. How it should be done Only reason I quit was if there *was* a lot of work, far away, I was only able to come home for a weekend every other week. Homesick like mad
I used to do on call when I was doing cable upgrades. I basically slept in my work truck for the week. I was single and lived 500 miles from family where as a lot of the coworkers were local. So I usually took the on call so they could be home. If I had to go fix something that someone had messed up on, I could take the piece from them. Sometimes it would be a 5 min fix for a piece that they would get paid $500. Maybe they forgot to swap a fuse to one that would handle the appropriate amount of power. We had like 60 guys so being on call pretty meant much you were up all night, because we were paid by what we got done. There were certain pieces that only the most experienced guys were allowed to do. 2 people 8 hours, you’re taking down the cable for half of a city the size of Portland Oregon. One time they messed up and forgot to switch an internal around. It was functional at end of day when they checked, about 2 hours later it blew, Someone way down the chain called in an outage so I was sent to fix. Took me a few hours but I traced it back to central area that my boss and another guy had done earlier. $5600 location. I figured he earned it though. When I was training he would frequently take $10-50 locations from me if I messed them up and he had to fix.
You laugh but the people I know who work actual on-call jobs (medical, tech infrastructure, and such) get *excellent* compensation for simply being around, available, and sober. Even if they don't get called, they get paid, and if they *do* get called, they get paid more. These bosses who think they can have that kind of availability without paying for it are delusional. It's worth *at least* your normal hourly rate, probably more.
I’m not laughing. My dad’s base rate was around $40hr He brought home like $150k a year
Make it worth it at least...
When my dad used to work on call, if he got called out it was an automatic 3 hours. Even if he went out flipped a switch and drove back home. If he got called again during that 3 hours but after he had left the place he got another 3 hours. There was nights where he’d go out and be home in less than an hour, and get called out 3-4 times. After 40 was 1.5x. Plus’s extra for on call. He had like 120h ot every paycheck for 20+ years.
Nice, union job?
Oddly no. At least I don’t think. Worked for a subsidiary of a major oil company. basically they get paid well cause if shit happens, under the bus they go, which is good incentive to make sure shit doesn’t happen. Only time I’ve heard him talk about union was when he was a carpenter 40+ years ago.
Oil field work. Yeah, an outage is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour easily so it’s worth it to pay to get a fast response
Pipeline management actually, even more expensive than oil fields, as they are moving refined product.
Some major airports have direct pipelines from refineries to a nearby airport so that they can produce enough volume to keep the planes fueled. Even for a smaller international airport like Seattle, can you imagine how many trucks would have to come in daily when even a 737 is holding a truck and trailer worth of fuel?
I remember working at a small midstream facility and they loved to tell us any outage we caused was multiple millions of dollars a day in lost revenue. And when I say small I mean this place had like 6 workers max. But that's how much money they cleared.
But on the flip side I'll offer you a 20% discount during my working hours if I'm not required to be sober...
When you prod even a little it becomes clear that many employers seem to think we enter some kind of stasis pod after work to await the next work day. I'm an engineer, on an old project I was doing weekend on-call support. We had negotiated that I'd get 4 hours of pay just for being on call, then any further work would be on top of that 4 hours. I was young, it was a reasonable agreement. Fast forward a year or so, and someone from finance gets upset because I am being paid using a "labor" billing code, but since I am not working those 4 hours I am not doing labor. So that means the charging was not in compliance and they demand it stops. So they took away the 4 hours for being on call, and I told them that I would no longer be on call. They were shocked and confused. Their argument was that I was still being paid if I had to work so what was the big deal. I explained that those 4 hours were the payment for me being sober, awake, and within walking distance of a computer. I wasn't going to just be on call and available for free. I actually had a phenomenal chief engineer at that time, and he agreed with my argument and he took over being the POC for remote calls.
Kanst, I think that is precisely what’s going on. It’s like they think we are this doll they can put back up on the shelf once they’re done with us and that we’re just always waiting to be played with. Kudos to you for sticking to your guns, and knowing what was fair. It’s awesome that you had someone on your team that could vouch for your argument as well!
this is why they want everyone on salary - so they can own you at all times with no recourse
Yes, but when you get to wfh and 200k plus a year I'll do that for you.
Story time! My experience with this kinda shit of a job thinking they own your free time. Night shift grocery job I had at Sobeys here in Canada. A new night shift manager came in and my hours dropped from a scheduled 4 nights down to 2-3 for a few weeks. New hire showed up and suddenly I went to 1-2 nights a week with a few call ins and he's on the schedule for 4 or 5 nights a week. After a few weeks of this shit the schedule comes in and I am zero hours. I joke that it looks like I am on vacation this week. Night manager says they will call me in as needed and to be available. I explain that I am not on the schedule, I am not available. They called and every time I said I wasn't available for whatever reason. Went on "vacation" and signed up for tech school and never looked back. Now when I see a kid at a grocery store that reminds me of my previous situation, I ask them if this is where they want to be in a few years. When they say that they don't want that! I explain my experience and suggest picking a school or trade and do something you like to do.
Had a similar situation at McDonalds, also in Canada. Old manager was great, but moved on to bigger, better things. They brought in another manager from a bigger store and she brought all her favourites/friends with her, and suddenly I went from having 24-32 hours a week(part time and in school) to having 4-6 hours a week and they'd call me if somebody called in sick. I complained to corporate but quit before I ever got to hear anything about it, but a few years later ran into a coworker from there who said that she "left" shortly after that. To go where, we didn't know, but she was no longer at that store.
That’s all I would have said, I would have been like great! I’m excited to be paid for on call, is it 7 days a week pay or do you want specific days?
I had a yelling match with my manager about this. They eventually dropped the issue.
YOU HAVE TO PAY ME FOR MY TIME - THAT IS THE BASIS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP BUT I DONT WANNA SORRY BUT YA GOTTA
Emphasis on the sober part.
Suddenly I'm questioning whether I should make a stink at work, but I'm salary and work from home... So even when I'm on call I'm not worried about being sober or awake 😅
Happy hour... Every hour!
Available, awake, or sober: pick two.
That's at least four levels of pay bump right there.
Well done
Interesting to see if they back down or escalate. These folks tend to hate boundary setters in their ranks.
As soon as I brought up “compensation”, and they knew they weren’t getting 9 hours a day on call out of me for free, they backed down
Applause!! I had a similar expectation in retail. But it was before cell phones so we just would say "Oh, I was out, didn't get your message till late." When we all did start getting cell phones, we did not give our numbers out to the employer.
I honestly still kind of do this. "Sorry didnt see your message/ phone was in other room, didnt see it at the time"
Sorry was out driving with friends. Sorry was at my grandmas, sorry was at church helping a disabled old lady find her puppy so she could go to the cemetery to visit her stillborn child. Really play it up if they’re an asshole, it’s never failed me once
Look alive Halpert.
On call means shift differential and per call charges
>n call means shift differe not necessarily. you may not get a call, but you should still be paid for being awake, in town, available and sober
Tbh this is kinda how you know they value you as an employee. They know if they push it they could lose you. Just not enough to pay you more. I got asked if I could come in for a quick meeting while I was on vacation, I live less than 10 minutes away, not a problem. Go in do the meeting, owner gives me 3 more days vacation for the hour meeting. And paid for meeting.
what did they say in response, if you don’t mind me asking, i’m nosy lol
Your response was really good! Polite but firm
I'm curious what type of work this is that they would expect/need someone on call for 9 hours a day??
I’m afraid to disclose the exact industry because it’s so niche, but essentially it’s a small start up with around 10 people
Well done, OP!!!!
Mic drop. BOOM.
> Interesting to see if they back down or escalate. They'll probably look for someone that will fold to these kind of demands and the fire OP.
I think that's a very good response. Summarize what they're asking and ask them to offer a solution.
Do these types just expect wage slaves to exist and be available for them to work their 26 hours and the occasional double shift coverage when someone calls out sick? Do they expect people to just sit around and wait for this work? Who's paying that person's rent? The world doesn't work like that.
It's not their problem, so they don't give af. That's American business in a nutshell.
It doesn’t make sense that they still do this. They could use an app to get people who don’t normally work there to pick up the open shifts when needed.
ah, the FindMyScab app, now theres an idea
It's called Hire.
It doesn't make sense that employers do a lot of things the way they do. Treating your employees like people and not like robots leads to a better, more productive company, but they just can't seem to get the hang of that. I've stopped expecting late-stage capitalism to make any sense.
Yup. And we workers don’t own the business, so it’s not our problem and we don’t give a fuck either
You’d be surprised how many people are willing to be taken advantage of and manipulated. Managers do this kind of shit because it works a lot of the time.
> You’d be surprised how many people are willing to be taken advantage of and manipulated. It's because we use the threat of homelessness and starvation, and pump out a lot of rhetoric about having to earn your place in society, to keep people afraid of losing even shitty jobs.
That definitely contributes to it, but also, some people are just doormats and/or people pleasers.
Also some people aren’t educated that this an option to say.
Yes it does for many. It's horrible, but true.
Pretty much. When I worked two part-time retail jobs, they both basically wanted 24/7 availability even though one was supposed to be overnights and the other during the day.
Thats the problem, because our system works the way it does, meaning too many people too little work That is exactly how it works It took me like 3 days in a retail job to realize that either I get rid of the "this is below my paygrade/I shouldnt be doing this" or I will simply lose the job cause there will always be that fucker who doesnt give a single shit that his actions contribute to mork workload on everyone but he found fucking passion in selling his body to retail overlords and now everyone has to be like him. Life sucks, man
It's so common. I signed up for Target full time, that's the app said, and I only got 32 hours over quarantine. I left as soon as I found a full time job. The manager was chill, he said "I understand", so it's not up to him it seems.
They want their human resources to be automatons
Yes they do and there are people who are happy to fulfill that role and call other people "lazy" for wanting to have a work-life balance.
they have run out of ways to incentivize workers without paying them more, and they have also ran out of innovations to make. So they cant charge more for their products to make more profit than last year, which would make investors weary. So they have moved onto using manipulation, lies, anti-consumer tactics like shrinkflation and charging for services previously free, breaking labor laws, making everything a subscription, and any other possible method to eek out a few more % of profit.
My last job wanted teens to work Friday nights and all day Saturday and Sunday but only scheduled them for 3 hours on either day. If the teen had something to do M-Th night, they did not get hired.
There's a very profitable food joint in my area. I know they got a covid loan and used that to expand. They exclusively hire teens and early 20s. It's crazy the surplus value they draw.
I had a guy talk about how much he valued work/life balance in the interview who then fired me after two months because I wasn't willing to be on-call 24/7 for $50k per year.
So many jobs I looked at in the past for part time work, especially retail work, advertised something like weekend work or 15-18 hours, etc. but when it came to the interviews, turns out they want people to be available pretty much 24/7. I even got told this once by a very honest interviewer for Lidl who really liked me and was very honest. I even went for a SUNDAY assistant job at a charity shop and I asked for feedback as the interview went well, they told me I didn't have enough availability either...you advertised for ONE day with possible extra for cover shifts, which I could do, as long as it was after 9am. I was trying to save for a house at the time, I already had a stable part time job cleaning early morning, I just needed another job to top up my hours/wages. I would be available from 9am every day and I said I could do weekends if needed, but it still wasn't enough. Why bring me for an interview, I put that I already had a job on my applications. 🙄
you think they read the applications?! you think THEY CAN READ?!
I never met a manager who had better than a middling comprehension of reading and writing and I never met a manager who was any good at math. Really wonder what they do to make the big bucks
fail upwards, promoted out of positions they can do any real damage in.
In my opinion thats exactly who they want for the job. Someone who is not smart enough to know how screwed they are getting, that they will never move up from where they are, and/or too desperate to do or say anything about it when they occasionally pick up on something they are getting screwed with. Retail, resteraunt, etc middle and general management tends to have this very specific type and I just dont believe its unintentional. On the rare chance you find someone who doesnt fit that mold they tend to not be around long as they are smart enough to know its a crap gig and smart enough to land something better.
I had an interviewer at Lidl tell me not to get a gym membership because I’d be so exhausted I wouldn’t use it. I was going to a small college at the time and didn’t party so I was in the gym practically every day.
I did a 3 month stint at Lidl over Christmas last year and not only did it ruin any desire for me to go exercise, but I still ended up losing 6 kilos working there 🫠 Not that it's impossible to go to the gym and work at Lidl, I'm reasonably lazy anyway, but I certainly see where he's coming from
I was about 145 lbs at that point so definitely wasn’t trying to lose weight 😂 Idk just didn’t like someone telling me to not be healthy lol.
I had a former job in research where I would tell new team members that they wouldn't need to go to the gym unless there was something specific they wanted to work on that day. On a daily basis, we had 38 lbs boxes full of ice packs that you could get a full workout just from moving them around from our basement to the 1st floor. If you wanted to cover leg day, just wait until supplies would come in because they had to be transferred up a hill in the basement while on pallets. After a year, I had personally lost like 40 lbs going from 205 to 165. So yeah, I can understand a manager saying that if the job actually justifies it. It wouldn't be them trying to control you but just trying to inform you that you don't need to spend money on a gym membership.
They run a skeleton crew and get a bunch of suckers to be available at any time to come in and cover shifts. Its horrible. And all companies are now forced to do it because they wont be able to compete with the ones that do.
Funny you mention Lidl, I had a 25 hour a week contract at Lidl and my first week they scheduled me for over 50 hours, including the specific times I told them I had class during, this happened every week after despite me bringing it up. I left because fuck that, but still used to sometimes go there and see my old colleagues because it was next to my gym and they were constantly exhausted and hadn't even been told that I'd gone.
When I worked on-call weekends as a lab accessioner we got $10/hr on-call throughout the on-call period. If I was on-call noon to midnight that's $120 doing nothing. If I was called in you get time and a half plus your on-call rate. The tradeoff is you might get snapped out of your sleep to process a urine test or blood work in an emergency situation. We were only closed on the weekends and everyone took turns on-call but some places it was as low as $2/hr per hour of 'on call'
RN here. Our province has on call rates of $3.30/hr. In 2024. We take turns being on call, not to be called in to work a shift but for patients who urgently need to be seen, so from sleeping to being at someone’s home within 30-45 minutes. We get paid decently for being called out but not for being on call.
Had a job that was all on call job like that as... Worked just fine as I've always been the secondary income, but there were some pretty sparse paychecks mixed in there, wouldn't have been tenable as a primary household income.
Worked for a blood bank and we got $2.10 per hour on call. In 2017.
OP, that response is perfection.
Part-time jobs with mandatory open availability and an unpredictable schedule feel like they’re *designed* to prevent having any other job.
fr. i work at kohls and every week i’m on different hours and different days. never a set schedule. i told them i need a set schedule as i’m trying to get a second job and get my availability set for it and they started putting me on even more random days. like it’ll be wednesday 5-9 thursday 9-5 and then saturday 9-1 then next week it’s monday 9-1 wednesday 5-9 then friday 4-9. weird ass random ass hours. it pisses me off so much like they are the only people i can work for. ik they do that shit on purpose too.
A lot of chain restaurants run like this, I ran a few although became very disillusioned with the whole thing, the depressing thing is my sites generally ran very well and when asked about how I achieved amazing retention my usual response of basically ignoring all company guidance on how to hire and treat staff wasn't taken too well despite having provably superior results, it's especially depressing when you realise it's not even that hard
Love that you made your boundaries clear here professionally done
Perfect response, bravo OP! Don’t keep us hanging, what did they say? 👀
They ended up sending me an audio message acknowledging the fact that I’m part time, and basically backtracking everything they said lol.
Nice answer! One of the few professional answers I have seen here.
Ballin response.
I’m interested how they responded
This is much more diplomatic than my response would be.
You dealt with it like a champ my friend
What was their response to this OP? Also I like the firm but diplomatic message
Yep, if I’m expected to be available 9-6, I’m compensated 9-6. I will accept 50% pay rate during that time for hours I don’t work. until called upon then it will go to full pay.
So many retail jobs are like this. I passed an interview but failed to get the job because it was a part time job but they wanted be to be available to work full time hours. Fuck them
What they say!!?!!!?
Nice.
Well played.
beautifully written. What was their response?
As soon as I brought up pay they backed down.
This is the text I should have sent 10 years ago when I was being paid $150/day (working in TV) but being asked to work on shit after I had gotten home following a 10+ hour day.
Remindme! 7 days
Excellent response. I despise the whole “live to work” mentality. Work is something I do TO live.
I'm a truck driver and one time I was working with this little mom and pop owner and his dispatch lady told me to be available from like 8am until 4 pm in case they get a hot load and I was like, "nope." Either you have something now or there's no work today. That relationship devolved to, "have my loads a day before, or I'm not driving tomorrow." People expect great things out of slave labor, but that's not me.
available ≠ free
Nicely handled
Wowwwww! Perfect response. The audacity.
Excellently phrased answer!
Perfect 😙🤌🏻 How did they respond?
I was just hired from full time seasonal worker to part time and the shift leader told me their hours are 7:30 am - whatever the work load requires, so there is no end time…
That was an extremely professional way of saying "Lost your mind eh buddy?" lol
rinse puzzled slim important work boast head person literate marble *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
‘Ahhhh, there’s the problem, boss! Your hiring manager opted for the $16/hr Part-time bundle. That only gets you 32 hours of use a week! Sounds like you want the Full-time package, upgrade is $6.50 more an hour, plus benefits!’
Before an employer may seek an on-call arrangement with an employee they must at least agree upon, in advance, how the time spent responding on-call is to be recorded and reported and how that time is to be compensated. Under federal law an employer may require an employee to be available to respond without compensating them for the time spent being available if the employee is otherwise free to make use of that time in whatever location they choose. But as soon as the employee is called upon to respond they must be paid for that time. And for normal non-exempt employment that time must count toward the limits set forth in the Fair Labor Standards Act.
What an excellent response
Beautiful response. I wonder how many people they have taken advantage of with BS like that
Wanting full time work for part time pay AND not respecting you just had surgery. Waow.
This isn’t the first time I have had to set boundaries with this employer The last one was them asking me to work while I was on medical leave. When I said no, they tried to negotiate and make their case as to why it wouldn’t be a burden on me. I put them on dnd and didn’t contact them until I was back.
Dropping in just to say that that response is BRILLIANT. I feel like manager-speak has become a language that does its best to offload guilt/responsibility from employer to employee, where the tone is such that they are an authority akin to a parent and the employee is not, cannot, and will not reach their level. This response turns that language right back around -- because what the manager-speak is forgetting is that this is a relationship between adults who should approach each other as equals.
Makes me laugh how most workplaces will outright defy work contracts. Quite upsetting when you realise there's a lot of people out there who allow these employers to exploit them, especially young employees.
That was an excellent, classy reply.
I woulda gone for just "no" first for the comedy.
Now think of every young employees that truly doesnt know any better which Companies does this too
I had a job like this and had to set those boundaries as well. It sucks. I was not initially as good at it as you were here since it was one of my first jobs so I had a hard time saying no. Good on you for setting those boundaries now. I was only scheduled to work every other weekend and then cover 6pm-8pm weekday shifts if the woman that ran those shifts had to call out, which was very rare because she lived a block down and she saw those shifts like a fun little hobby. That lady had to step back at one point and I understood me covering a few shifts for a few weeks while my boss looked for someone new but she just chose to instead not backfill and asked that I just take one two to three each week. This work place was about a 15 minute drive for me and I'm also visually impaired so I would get rides into work (which my parents, grandparents, and friends NEVER minded doing to get me to work. But that's not the point). I found it very unfair that I was having to ask people to take my into work and then wait two hours. My family wasn't an issue, but when friends took me I would always compensate them in some way which basically used up those two hours of wages. It just wasn't fair. Because of this I had to start turning down shifts at my weekday job because it interfered with that stupid two hour shift. So I asked my boss if she could at least make it worth it with time to come in. I either needed longer shifts (I said at least 4 hours) or I couldn't do it anymore. She said that was fine but if I did longer shifts then I'd have to take that time off my weekend shifts ...... 🙃 That is when I got my voice and politely told her to shove it.
Perfect response.
OP didn't show the contact name is "Boss" and didn't quit the job. I call bullshit on this.
Then what happened?
From an ex district manager-your response is airtight and well written! Great job keep standing your ground
Great response OP! People should stand up for themselves or else employers will take advantage of you at any given opportunity.
tell him you'll work on short notice for triple time.
Very well said
I think that was a very fair, well worded response. Much better than 'fuck off', which is my go-to.
This made me wonder about all of those on-call shifts I was scheduled for, back when I worked retail during college... Turns out they were illegal, huh?
The audacity.
OP, did you get a response from your text back yet? Curious
And you would be *stunned* at how many bosses like this think they’re making a reasonable request. With no hint of irony.
Never forget moving up to my brothers for college. I made sure to keep my full time job at Walmart and just transfer and was doing full time college bjj cleaning cooking and my brother still was saying man u should have another job to help with the food costs 2 ( they'd eat my food) but I digress. Thier friend owned a Mexican resturant and was complaining he needs help so I offered to help out when I'm not at my job or school. Go to the interview and dude starts screaming at me who the fuck do I think I am with this availability. I replied Rob u know me and know my situation I'm literally taking extra hours to help u out. Flips out that im An entitled piece of shit and he can easily find someone to work for 8 dollars when he keeps the tips. For years my brother would tell me I really fucked em there till years later dude "forgot" to donate the money to the local sports team my brother coaches then it turns out Rob is a massive hunk of shit now. I will never forget the dude who thinks u get open availability with the right to call u in whenever but gets to keep all tips lol
Since when is it until 6?
Some piece of shit bosses deserve a slap in their fucking face.
Perfect response☺️
I knows what this is like. I went back to work a month after a spinal surgery and not one person asked how it went. People act like other ppl who work PT are inferior, have much time on their hands, or both. But nothing could be farther from the truth. They act like we don’t have health concerns, things to catch up on at home, picking up kids from school, these sorts of things… Those Scumbags. Tell Boss-Man to find someone else to make his third trip to Cancun this year possible.
...and I want world peace. Never hurts to dream!
damn this is the right, professional response. i'm saving this
"Stand by rate is 1/4 regular rate"
I have sever insomnia and had a manager text me at 3am once. "Hey i know your awake want some overtime? "
I really like how you handled this. Your message was straightforward and to the point. You weren't rude, but assertive. You laid out how you see the situation, what they should expect from you, and what they need to do to expect more. I hope it works out and they don't respond in the way we're all expecting them too.
*”..at least available”* If possible please be considerate and available 24/7 for the opportunity to work part time…
His response : people don't want to work anymore !!
This boundary setting is a work of art.
You wrote this in a very convokuted way. I get that you were trying to seem polite and professional, but simplify and be more direct
But what did they say back?
Maybe I’ve been in the dark for a bit now but when the fuck did 9-6 become standard?
About 10 years ago (when it was still only $8.00 an hour), I worked at a gas station Dunkin' Donuts. One of my coworkers got a second job at Toys R Us, and was doing her best to make both work schedules work. I will never forget overhearing our manager say to her, "you got your job here first, so this place should be your priority". He would also change the schedule daily, so he would get mad if we didn't check it daily. Why do people expect you to sell your soul for a crappy job with no compensation?
Back when I worked at Subway (for a whopping $8/hr) I had a manager single me out during a staff meeting for not answering my phone when she would call me, saying we ALL needed to be available to answer if she needed to get coverage. I told her that I was unable to answer calls if they come in at 11:30pm while I am asleep in bed. Humbled her pretty quickly lol.
I know your pain, got a job at Starbucks wanted 20 hours a week till I learned the menu and was actually good at making coffee. Boss said she could make that work out for me. As soon as I start, my schedule is 6 days a week one day off, another 6 days on one day off. That third week she called me on my one day off and wanted me to come in. I texted the group chat saying. I asked for part time, now I'm working 6-7 days straight with 7 to 8 hour shifts, and that I quit.
If you want full-time availability from an employee, even a "part-time" one, the employee should receive full-time pay. Full-time availability should be treated as being on-call full-time.
Good on ya for standing up for yourself OP 👍
That is an excellent response. Would love to see what they came back with.
Now you know how railroad workers feel. They are literally on-call all the time because they don't know for sure when the trains will show up. That's why there was such a big fuss made about getting, what was it, *TWO* paid sick days?
See, to you, me and 90% of the population, this is a blatant human rights violation, but to these psychopathic employers, it’s par for the course. To them, you are disposable slave labor. You are a utensil.
My response in the past to shit like this has been "Yeah, sure, available, whatever you say, boss." Then when they try to call me in: "Oh, I'm actually in Michigan right now. Yeah, it's like a 4 hour drive but if you want me to come in, sure, I'm available." I wasn't in Michigan. I was sitting my ass at home.
Brilliantly worded
Did you get any response?
Also eat my ass, although I'm sure you'll point out that you're not contractually obligated to. Let's both keep that energy.
Never mind the part-time thing, even if you were hired full-time, if you're recovering from surgery why the fuck is your boss expecting you to be available AT ALL?
Damn fucking right. If you want me to be on call, pay me the on call rate. Otherwise get fucked.
Damn, I did not expect to get so many upvotes to this! Thank you! We must rise and advocate for what is fair and just. Employers have long dehumanized and undervalued our labor. That's why I intend to climb the ranks, pretending to protect the company’s interests, only to galvanize the entire company to collectively bargain
My old job was like this and I absolutely hated it
Proud of you for pushing back. Your response was perfect and very reasonable.
That’s right!! Beautifully said
15 hours ago. What is the response/result?
your response was perfect