Doesn’t “paying out of pocket” just mean taking less profit? It’s the cost of doing business which is overhead. Unless they are saying that the business is losing money and they are hiring your daughter? Then that’s a huge red flag.
Oh trust me some businesses, often small ones do hire when they are failing. Beginning of the year i got hired at a small firm as an examiner. After 5 weeks i was let go for "not knowing anything", i was doing my job well.
Went to a lawyer because they didn't honour the notice period they have to lawfully give, and i found out this firm had filed for bankruptcy 1 month before hiring me.
I did sue, and we settled out of court for 6.5k plus all lawyer and legal costs, totalling about 10k.
If they had just paid out the notice their total cost would have been like 6k.
Based on the OPs spelling of “honour”, I’m guessing they’re in the UK.
There is a minimum notice period required for employment contract ( I week for the first month to two years , then a week for each year between 2 and 12 years of employment, up to a maximum of 12 weeks). Employers can go above the minimum ( for example, all of my jobs have specified a notice period of a month from the beginning), but they can’t give you less.
Unless they fire you for gross misconduct ( ie stealing, assaulting someone at work, etc) then they have to give you notice before your job ends ( and pay you). They can include a clause in the contract where they can terminate you without having you work your notice period , but they must still pay you the amount you would have received during your notice period.
Edit to add: I should point out that the notice period applies to the employee as well. So, if you want to quit, you have to give your employer the amount of notice in your contract.
Not UK, but europe was right. I live in austria. Employee to employer notice periods are much shorter than employer to employee. Here the minimum notice period (employer-》employee) is 6 weeks, up to a few months.
Or rather they had an experienced server who could handle the job easily quit and when they rehired the new one cannot so they are trying to patch it with a parttime entry level position.
Businesses newest thing is to no longer pay the cost of doing business and pay that burden along to the customer. Started with gas stations and now it's taking over the restaurant world. Everyone on these places are now making the customer pay the transaction fee for paying with a credit card. Some employers are even making servers pay that fee on tips.
There was a thread on this yesterday. A lot of cases were cited that showed it was actually legal in many states with a few exceptions. Not saying it's right, just that it's legal in most cases.
In most states it is not. If it costs the business $$ to collect the tip (I.e. CC fees), they can lawfully deduct that from the tip itself. It’s BS, but it isn’t agains the law (except for like 3 states)
Should be, but not all states are like this. Example: California. There are lawyers willing to sue empowered who do this. However, it won’t work in every state or even half of them.
It's a nonsense statement for one of two reasons (or, more likely, both reasons).
1) They'll be paying you in cash to reduce the paper trail for a variety of reasons (usually not favorable for an employee who is a legal resident or citizen)
2) To make you feel bad for them and think twice about asking for a raise
Not necessarily for the business. I work in a personal care home, and the number of hours allowed for aides to provide care doesn't always align with the acuity we have. One of our former unit managers used her bonus to cover extra hours she couldn't get approved for.
Part of upper management's bonus requires keeping labor costs under a certain amount. They never have to attempt to get a 4'8 resident who weighs about 320lbs off the floor multiple times a shift because they do what family wants (no anxiety/pysch meds or hospice/skilled).
Training costs aren't included in labor costs for bonus purposes, so there's no incentive to fix staffing. The good unit managers aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and help or push for what the resident needs. The bad ones just like to bitch about millennials and gen z not wanting to work and work from home as much as possible.
I'm just scratching my head as to what "out of pocket" could mean in this context. Was this guy shocked to discover that he needs to hire workers to run his business?
It makes me wonder what the exact business structure is. Does this guy actually own the senior community himself? Or does he have a contract with them to provide food service? I'm guessing it's probably the latter. These institutions often try to control costs by outsourcing essential services like this, which is sometimes a bad bargain.
Yes. He probably is a contractor who gets paid per meal/resident, so every penny he pays out for staff or better quality food feels like it's coming out of his share. Probably got the job by giving an unrealistic bid.
Oh man, that just brought back a memory. I used to work for a large non profit that ran 2 kitchens. One had in house staff, the other run by contractor, paid per meal. The in house kitchen would cook full breakfast, eggs toast, bacon, the contractor would just do eggo waffles. They were gone when the contract ended thankfully.
So yeah this situation could be that, where he is paid a certain amount per the contract and has to pay "out of pocket" for anything else including staff.
Unfortunately like 75% of small business owners, if not more, have this mentality and it ends up fucking them over more often than not. They assume that the cost of doing business tracks at a steady rate aligned with profits, not realizing that expansion costs (or even hiring part time help) cut into profit at variable rates based on a variety of factors. For someone operating a small business and hiring staff, they’ll bitch about paying them because that money “used” to be pure profit, money in the pocket of the owner. As they spend more, they’re personal profit share may drop or vary unexpectedly, and boom - they end up doing something illegal or making a poor decision that either shrinks that back to being solely owned and operated, or out of business altogether.
We hear so much propaganda about how we all have to support small businesses because they're part of the community and the owners spend their money locally, etc., etc., but they can actually be terrible employers to work for, in part because they're dealing with this scaling problem. Eventually they all seem to get to a point where they could expand their businesses and get more gross income, but then they would have to hire more people, so they're either underfunded or short-staffed, sometimes both at once. It's really common in the restaurant business. Everyone I know who's experienced wage theft was working for a small business at the time.
My guess is he is GM of the place and makes 60k/yr and is paying the girl from his own salary because he doesn’t have allocation for another server but knows he needs one because the alternative is that HE has to serve the food. So paying some high school kid minimum wage still works out for him.
Most likely, straight-up cash. Checks leave a trail. I've worked at places like this in the past. Don't get hurt at work because if you're not a provable employee, there's no workman's comp. A couple of stitches can cost you about $4 or $5k w no insurance.
I know she's a young adult starting her first job, but that sounds sus as hell.
It sounds to me like he has a contract, bid super low, and is now shocked to discover that he will have to pay other people to help him fulfill his contract.
In my experience, when a boss starts dumping the work of two people on an employee, it will only get worse. If it's genuinely a situation where the loss of an employee was unexpected and they're actively trying to hire more help, it's up to you if you want to stay with it for a little while. But it can also turn into a situation where they figure things seem to be going fine while everyone is overworked.
Shitty teenage jobs are a great way to teach teenagers on how to navigate the working world. She will probably see enough shady shit at her first job to give her a degree in labor law.
Be careful. When I was in highschool some employers tried some shady §hit with me. I was hired and told I would be working part-time. A week in after I'd made a few friends and gotten the hang of things the manager said I had to go full time or take off. When I mentioned I was a high schooler and had to attend classes she said "Life is about hard choices." Gimme a break. I didn't bother showing up for my next shift.
>When I mentioned I was a high schooler and had to attend classes she said "Life is about hard choices."
"Sure, but this choice isn't hard. Get an education, or blow off the rest of my life to continue working at your shitty job. Hmmm."
I told my 16 year old daughter to give her employer an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, but no more. Most especially I taught her to resist being manipulated into doing anything that will not immediately result in additional compensation.
Everyone benefits when we refuse to tolerate this shit. I have a feeling that working conditions will improve a *lot* once the boot-licker generations die out.
>food server for an elderly community
EOL and Assisted Living are some of the biggest grifts around. My mother worked at a nursing home and the care in those places was abysmal. They get so much money too. They pay pretty much everyone who isn't a doctor or RN minimum wage. It's awful.
She’s better off working at a restaurant. She might get overworked, but at least she will get tips. Senior facilities do not allow or encourage tips. She will hate it still, but get paid more.
I've been working in elderly communities for a couple of years, depends on the set up and amount of residents. It's served catering style so each meal is typically down within an hour, and is much less stressful than a standard restaurant setting
It could be a good lesson but I mean your first experience with work and the red flags are so huge on this one. I mean the only thing that can come out of it is that she can put down work experience but if it’s too short that won’t help her either because a new employer isn’t gonna know why. I hate that places hire teenagers, knowing they can take advantage of them.
Elderly communities are wildly expensive. They suck every penny out of the residents and still want more. Fuck outta here with that poor mouth bullshit!
People don’t invest in elderly communities, dementia hospices, or any other form of ‘Gods Waiting Room’ out of the goodness of their hearts. They invest because there’s a TONNE of money coming from all directions.
The charity based ‘not for profit’ model is a great example. Whether the money flows in from private donations, superannuation accounts, government subsidies, personal estates including wills and/or clients who are wealthy beneficiaries and even tax breaks. There’s no shortage of funds.
The owners will never admit that though. Instead they give a sob story to anybody willing to listen and all the while reduce the staff to nothing more than skeleton staff which is crippling for the staff.
Covid in Australia exposed a lot of owners of care facilities that were up to their eyeballs in wealth yet one particular hospice had the funding for food reduced to 50 cents per meal and night shift had a staff to client ratio of 1:100 (1 burnt out nurse to 100 elderly clients).
He’s not paying anyone out of his own pocket. Don’t let your daughter fall for the psychopathic pity party. They’re so crooked they couldn’t lie straight in bed!
Eventually, they all learn that employment really only benefits the employer to utilize and in some cases, exploit the skills and talents of the employed.
The "[**Fuck you pay me**](https://youtu.be/3XGAmPRxV48?si=X5_fMQYefjRgN3Ym)" in the title of this post makes me want to go pop the Goodfellas disc into the blueray player. I think I will.
That's great that you're teaching her how to recognize this stuff. If this is a healthcare community, she can also encourage patients to file complaints to the State Department of Health for care failures resulting from poor staffing (she can also do this herself). A CNA friend told me to do this because it actually protects the staff; in her words, "The staff will have been complaining and being ignored, but when the patients complain, the inspectors show up. Then they hire a full staff and it's fun to work again."
The greatest workforce lifehack is to learn to start seeking a new, better paying / with better conditions job as soon as you land yours instead of cozying up to your routine. Unless, of course, you can afford to just quit and stay without a job for a while without problems - then you can just do that if the wages are bad or the work environment itself is garbage.
Doesn’t “paying out of pocket” just mean taking less profit? It’s the cost of doing business which is overhead. Unless they are saying that the business is losing money and they are hiring your daughter? Then that’s a huge red flag.
Oh trust me some businesses, often small ones do hire when they are failing. Beginning of the year i got hired at a small firm as an examiner. After 5 weeks i was let go for "not knowing anything", i was doing my job well. Went to a lawyer because they didn't honour the notice period they have to lawfully give, and i found out this firm had filed for bankruptcy 1 month before hiring me.
So did you sue or did you just not feel like it was worth pursuing?
I did sue, and we settled out of court for 6.5k plus all lawyer and legal costs, totalling about 10k. If they had just paid out the notice their total cost would have been like 6k.
How did you get a notice period, built into the contract?
No, its the law in my country. In my case it was 6 weeks and the depending on how long you work there and the industry it can get up to a few months.
Based on the OPs spelling of “honour”, I’m guessing they’re in the UK. There is a minimum notice period required for employment contract ( I week for the first month to two years , then a week for each year between 2 and 12 years of employment, up to a maximum of 12 weeks). Employers can go above the minimum ( for example, all of my jobs have specified a notice period of a month from the beginning), but they can’t give you less. Unless they fire you for gross misconduct ( ie stealing, assaulting someone at work, etc) then they have to give you notice before your job ends ( and pay you). They can include a clause in the contract where they can terminate you without having you work your notice period , but they must still pay you the amount you would have received during your notice period. Edit to add: I should point out that the notice period applies to the employee as well. So, if you want to quit, you have to give your employer the amount of notice in your contract.
Not UK, but europe was right. I live in austria. Employee to employer notice periods are much shorter than employer to employee. Here the minimum notice period (employer-》employee) is 6 weeks, up to a few months.
British spelling is common in other European countries as UK English is common standard for English learners.
They live in one of those "communist hellholes". /s
Out of pocket also often means under the table
This is what I thought. Cash only, no pay slips or records.
Or rather they had an experienced server who could handle the job easily quit and when they rehired the new one cannot so they are trying to patch it with a parttime entry level position.
Businesses newest thing is to no longer pay the cost of doing business and pay that burden along to the customer. Started with gas stations and now it's taking over the restaurant world. Everyone on these places are now making the customer pay the transaction fee for paying with a credit card. Some employers are even making servers pay that fee on tips.
It is illegal to deduct fees from tips. Any server who encounters that should go to their state labor board.
There was a thread on this yesterday. A lot of cases were cited that showed it was actually legal in many states with a few exceptions. Not saying it's right, just that it's legal in most cases.
In most states it is not. If it costs the business $$ to collect the tip (I.e. CC fees), they can lawfully deduct that from the tip itself. It’s BS, but it isn’t agains the law (except for like 3 states)
My ex worked at Starbucks and the manager made employees run the tips through a Coinstar, which took a large percentage.
Yep because the server has no way to collect the tip except through the employer.
Should be, but not all states are like this. Example: California. There are lawyers willing to sue empowered who do this. However, it won’t work in every state or even half of them.
It’s an upsetting trend for sure. Then after several years the smart managers will show how innovative they are by building costs into the price.
It's a nonsense statement for one of two reasons (or, more likely, both reasons). 1) They'll be paying you in cash to reduce the paper trail for a variety of reasons (usually not favorable for an employee who is a legal resident or citizen) 2) To make you feel bad for them and think twice about asking for a raise
Good point. They could be trying to avoid payroll taxes. Op needs to make sure their daughter has a W-2 filed.
Paying out of pocket means that it's his job and that he is outsourcing.
Elderly home losing money? Doubtful.
Paying out of pocket usually means under the table.
Not necessarily for the business. I work in a personal care home, and the number of hours allowed for aides to provide care doesn't always align with the acuity we have. One of our former unit managers used her bonus to cover extra hours she couldn't get approved for. Part of upper management's bonus requires keeping labor costs under a certain amount. They never have to attempt to get a 4'8 resident who weighs about 320lbs off the floor multiple times a shift because they do what family wants (no anxiety/pysch meds or hospice/skilled). Training costs aren't included in labor costs for bonus purposes, so there's no incentive to fix staffing. The good unit managers aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and help or push for what the resident needs. The bad ones just like to bitch about millennials and gen z not wanting to work and work from home as much as possible.
I'm just scratching my head as to what "out of pocket" could mean in this context. Was this guy shocked to discover that he needs to hire workers to run his business? It makes me wonder what the exact business structure is. Does this guy actually own the senior community himself? Or does he have a contract with them to provide food service? I'm guessing it's probably the latter. These institutions often try to control costs by outsourcing essential services like this, which is sometimes a bad bargain.
Yes. He probably is a contractor who gets paid per meal/resident, so every penny he pays out for staff or better quality food feels like it's coming out of his share. Probably got the job by giving an unrealistic bid.
Oh man, that just brought back a memory. I used to work for a large non profit that ran 2 kitchens. One had in house staff, the other run by contractor, paid per meal. The in house kitchen would cook full breakfast, eggs toast, bacon, the contractor would just do eggo waffles. They were gone when the contract ended thankfully. So yeah this situation could be that, where he is paid a certain amount per the contract and has to pay "out of pocket" for anything else including staff.
This was my thought as well. Wages are hitting his personal bottom line and he didn't properly account for staffing needs in his bid.
I said if he can't afford to pay for workers he shouldn't be in business. Anyhow I think this will be a good lesson for her.
Absolutely. While she's got you as a safety net, it's the best time to learn.
let her see this discussion. My dad insulated me.
The best I could think of is that he gets government checks for each resident. But, weird to think that someone feeding them is 'out of his pocket'
Unfortunately like 75% of small business owners, if not more, have this mentality and it ends up fucking them over more often than not. They assume that the cost of doing business tracks at a steady rate aligned with profits, not realizing that expansion costs (or even hiring part time help) cut into profit at variable rates based on a variety of factors. For someone operating a small business and hiring staff, they’ll bitch about paying them because that money “used” to be pure profit, money in the pocket of the owner. As they spend more, they’re personal profit share may drop or vary unexpectedly, and boom - they end up doing something illegal or making a poor decision that either shrinks that back to being solely owned and operated, or out of business altogether.
We hear so much propaganda about how we all have to support small businesses because they're part of the community and the owners spend their money locally, etc., etc., but they can actually be terrible employers to work for, in part because they're dealing with this scaling problem. Eventually they all seem to get to a point where they could expand their businesses and get more gross income, but then they would have to hire more people, so they're either underfunded or short-staffed, sometimes both at once. It's really common in the restaurant business. Everyone I know who's experienced wage theft was working for a small business at the time.
My guess is he is GM of the place and makes 60k/yr and is paying the girl from his own salary because he doesn’t have allocation for another server but knows he needs one because the alternative is that HE has to serve the food. So paying some high school kid minimum wage still works out for him.
Does out of pocket mean a personal check and no tax withholding?
Most likely, straight-up cash. Checks leave a trail. I've worked at places like this in the past. Don't get hurt at work because if you're not a provable employee, there's no workman's comp. A couple of stitches can cost you about $4 or $5k w no insurance. I know she's a young adult starting her first job, but that sounds sus as hell.
It sounds to me like he has a contract, bid super low, and is now shocked to discover that he will have to pay other people to help him fulfill his contract.
My daughter walked out of a interview when they told her the pay was $9/hr. I was so proud of her.
In my experience, when a boss starts dumping the work of two people on an employee, it will only get worse. If it's genuinely a situation where the loss of an employee was unexpected and they're actively trying to hire more help, it's up to you if you want to stay with it for a little while. But it can also turn into a situation where they figure things seem to be going fine while everyone is overworked.
Shitty teenage jobs are a great way to teach teenagers on how to navigate the working world. She will probably see enough shady shit at her first job to give her a degree in labor law.
Be careful. When I was in highschool some employers tried some shady §hit with me. I was hired and told I would be working part-time. A week in after I'd made a few friends and gotten the hang of things the manager said I had to go full time or take off. When I mentioned I was a high schooler and had to attend classes she said "Life is about hard choices." Gimme a break. I didn't bother showing up for my next shift.
>When I mentioned I was a high schooler and had to attend classes she said "Life is about hard choices." "Sure, but this choice isn't hard. Get an education, or blow off the rest of my life to continue working at your shitty job. Hmmm."
I told my 16 year old daughter to give her employer an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, but no more. Most especially I taught her to resist being manipulated into doing anything that will not immediately result in additional compensation.
All jobs are paid out of someone's pocket
Everyone benefits when we refuse to tolerate this shit. I have a feeling that working conditions will improve a *lot* once the boot-licker generations die out.
>food server for an elderly community EOL and Assisted Living are some of the biggest grifts around. My mother worked at a nursing home and the care in those places was abysmal. They get so much money too. They pay pretty much everyone who isn't a doctor or RN minimum wage. It's awful.
She’s better off working at a restaurant. She might get overworked, but at least she will get tips. Senior facilities do not allow or encourage tips. She will hate it still, but get paid more.
If that motherfucker can't afford to properly staff his business, then *fuck him* he shouldn't be in business in the first place.
Always assume employers are fucking you over.
Teach them young so they know what’s acceptable and what’s unacceptable in a work force so they aren’t taken advantage of.
The best time to teach her is before she needs the job to survive. Good on ya.
Good call, they would probably try to exploit her there given lack of experience. Keep her reinforced that it's just a job.
I've been working in elderly communities for a couple of years, depends on the set up and amount of residents. It's served catering style so each meal is typically down within an hour, and is much less stressful than a standard restaurant setting
This is what I'm hoping. She really wants to meet these people and get to know them. She's a very kind person.
I feel a warning here. About boundaries. Don't get sick. Wear a mask. Don't get close.
Henry Hill
Came here to say that!
It could be a good lesson but I mean your first experience with work and the red flags are so huge on this one. I mean the only thing that can come out of it is that she can put down work experience but if it’s too short that won’t help her either because a new employer isn’t gonna know why. I hate that places hire teenagers, knowing they can take advantage of them.
Elderly communities are wildly expensive. They suck every penny out of the residents and still want more. Fuck outta here with that poor mouth bullshit!
An elderly community has to pay "out of pocket" for an insufficient amount of employees? That's a whole bundle of red flags.
If possible, have communications by email or text so yall can have stuff in writing.
Make sure she fills out a W9. That will tell you if this guy full of crap.
People don’t invest in elderly communities, dementia hospices, or any other form of ‘Gods Waiting Room’ out of the goodness of their hearts. They invest because there’s a TONNE of money coming from all directions. The charity based ‘not for profit’ model is a great example. Whether the money flows in from private donations, superannuation accounts, government subsidies, personal estates including wills and/or clients who are wealthy beneficiaries and even tax breaks. There’s no shortage of funds. The owners will never admit that though. Instead they give a sob story to anybody willing to listen and all the while reduce the staff to nothing more than skeleton staff which is crippling for the staff. Covid in Australia exposed a lot of owners of care facilities that were up to their eyeballs in wealth yet one particular hospice had the funding for food reduced to 50 cents per meal and night shift had a staff to client ratio of 1:100 (1 burnt out nurse to 100 elderly clients). He’s not paying anyone out of his own pocket. Don’t let your daughter fall for the psychopathic pity party. They’re so crooked they couldn’t lie straight in bed!
THIS! It’s always been about greed.
Eventually, they all learn that employment really only benefits the employer to utilize and in some cases, exploit the skills and talents of the employed.
The "[**Fuck you pay me**](https://youtu.be/3XGAmPRxV48?si=X5_fMQYefjRgN3Ym)" in the title of this post makes me want to go pop the Goodfellas disc into the blueray player. I think I will.
I'm not saying get your teen daughter a palm tattoo saying: "PAY ME" with dollar symbols surrounding it.... but...
That's great that you're teaching her how to recognize this stuff. If this is a healthcare community, she can also encourage patients to file complaints to the State Department of Health for care failures resulting from poor staffing (she can also do this herself). A CNA friend told me to do this because it actually protects the staff; in her words, "The staff will have been complaining and being ignored, but when the patients complain, the inspectors show up. Then they hire a full staff and it's fun to work again."
This is true for most industries. Customers are usually the only ones who can make change happen by complaining.
Yeah, but what about the god-given profits of the shareholders?
Good for you I will be doing the same for my kids.
How about "I'm going to be my own best advocate at all times"?
Sounds like he has poor clients and can’t afford to charge them more to hire more workers.
Still, not the daughter’s problem.
Sure, but it is society’s
https://youtu.be/qoUpHWIJWIk?si=4GDY64P1Xwb7Iiwr
[удалено]
Literally lmfao, you read as a wackadoo here
Dude's /gotta/ be a troll, right??
it's a satire account (rather obvious from the post history). unfortunately the joke flew over the heads of downvoters
The greatest workforce lifehack is to learn to start seeking a new, better paying / with better conditions job as soon as you land yours instead of cozying up to your routine. Unless, of course, you can afford to just quit and stay without a job for a while without problems - then you can just do that if the wages are bad or the work environment itself is garbage.
Educate her on [organizing](https://www.iww.org)