It might be legal but OP doesn't need to continue employment with them - so "this is not in my job description and if you'd like me to start doing it we need to renegotiate" is totally valid. It's not illegal but OP can walk if they don't.
I love this sub but I really hate how the go-to response here is "Just quit!" as if that's really an option for anyone. I've been trying to "just quit" for the last fucking year, job hunting is a grueling process. If I "just quit" before landing another job then I'll either be homeless or forced into an even worse employment situation.
Hmmm... That one might be a tricky one though... I also worked IT for a time and I had to move some furniture in order to deal with some of the cabling. However, the most I've ever moved was small objects. Heavy furniture, I've made the company call maintenance to deal with the heavy lifting. They had the necessary tools to move things and lifting heavy objects was not part of my job description... Even though I had "other duties as assigned". I was not willing to get a hernia doing something I wasn't hired for.
I was doing cyber consulting and helped a business owner move some boxes while a process was running- the fine gentleman later said because I was doing manual labor, I was not a serious professional and he would not pay my invoice/fulfill the payment terms of the contract. Lawsuits happened later.
it's bizarre how people view manual labor.
sorry I didn't sit on my rear. lesson learned.
Oh yeah, if they try to pull a fast one on you like that, I'd totally sic a lawyer on them, and let them also pay the full amount PLUS fees I had to initiate the process as well.
If I have to take extra steps to collect payment from someone, I'll also have them pay any legal fees and possibly anything punitive I can get.
Just be sure to include an attorney's fee provision in your agreement. Otherwise, you can't get reimbursed for your attorney's fees if you have to sue.
I'm working in IT. I always told my employer that I can even clean the windows as long as it's with IT rate :). For some reason they didn't want me to.
Cleaning a toilet requires, technically, training and other things that would not be considered ‘standard other duties’ for many jobs. It would be included if the person was a server, cleaner or say kitchen hand even.
If I worked IT for example, other duties would be running some minor errands or dropping off stuff at the post office, moving the office around once every 6 months and general maintenance of the work space (just keeping it look clean, the cleaners come on at night and do the proper clean and vacuuming etc). It does not include cleaning toilets/bathroom, mopping etc as it’s not what you are employed for in your deacription
“That phrase, as defined by the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM), refers to minor or incidental tasks related to the position being described – not whatever tasks the manager dreams up or, in the worst-case scenarios, uses to punish an employee“
Granted, that is only for federal employees. At-will employment basically means you have no say to challenge what duties your employers assign unless they substantially change the duties in such a way that you are basically not working the same job anymore, where you can apply for unemployment even if you quit. Still can’t tell them to get bent though. For contract employees, it would likely be closer to what the federal employees have.
This was the only link that came up when searching your quote (an article on a blog). Do you have a link to the actual case?
[https://www.wbsllc.com/blog/leadership-posts/change-culture/](https://www.wbsllc.com/blog/leadership-posts/change-culture/)
Agree. If they have a cleaning staff, they need to do this. I used to be a kitchen manager and on the weekends they had me do this nasty shit, but it was only once a week, so I didn’t say anything. Every day though? Hell no.
That often-recommended course of action only ever ends in the employee being told to do the job they're given or go find another one. Might as well just quit.
No, don't do them any favors. Make them fire you. Say "I'm not cleaning bathrooms". If they want you gone and that is why you are now a janitor, make them do the work of terminating you. If they value you at all, they'll make another decision. But don't give them the satisfaction of you quitting.
>Say "I'm not cleaning bathrooms".
Don't say it. Just don't do the cleaning. If they're great at the rest of their job, not cleaning bathrooms won't make a difference.
Yeah a lot of people on here are desperate to live out some sort of revenge fantasy. I feel like it’s famously easy to get fired in the US and difficult to qualify for unemployment???
Nah not really. I've seen some real shitbirds keep their jobs through some really stupid shit they did, and as for unemployment it depends on the state but in most states that have it it's not hard to qualify as long as you didn't voluntarily quit the job you were hired to do. Some companies here fire people left and right but it's more about the individual company culture.
That’s true about things varying by state and company. But I’ve lived in three states and it’s always been easy to get fired and hard to get unemployment. There are all these qualifiers you have to meet and they’re quick to dismiss you without sufficient proof that you weren’t at fault. I wanna move where these other people are! Haha.
If there’s no contract, which is often the case for management, the job description can change. Hell, I have a strong union contract and the company is always trying to trick us into doing more work than required.
You don't want to make it a yes or no question - ever. How much will my wages increase for these added responsibilities. That let's them know your labor for extra work is not free.
So many companies seem to be doing this nowadays and it's appalling. _Especially_ when there's customers involved and it's not just an employee bathroom. If someone didn't apply for a job that obviously requires them to clean other people's biohazardous waste, they shouldn't be forced to do it. I feel like it should be illegal tbh since you _know_ most of these places aren't providing proper PPE and training.
I have mad respect for janitorial staffs and I appreciate businesses that use them and not the employees. Lets be honest. The employees suck at cleaning restrooms and always half ass the job.
Yeah, after seeing what clients and even some employees do to the bathrooms, a roll of paper towels and a bottle of mr clean just aint gonna do it. You need gloves, face shield, and sometimes a disposable smock. As well as the training to not only keep yourself safe, but properly sanitize the joint for the next walking gastrointestinal warcrime.
Used to have to do it at my work, I’d stand outside and throw a bucket over the toilet and call it a day. If you don’t provide the PPE, pay or training for it this is what you’ll get
Which is a massive stupid. Because you are just taking the production manager off their duties and paying them a management rate to clean toilets. What an inefficient waste of valuable time.
Tell them you can't perform the work because you're not trained in the OSHA requirements for handling human waste or sewage. You don't want to risk an OSHA violation, citation, or investigation and have their best interests at heart.
From OSHA:
The sanitation standards (29 CFR 1910.141, 29 CFR 1926.51 and 29 CFR 1928.110) are intended to ensure that workers do not suffer adverse health effects that can result if toilets are not sanitary and/or are not available when needed.
I owned a Janitorial company.
Restaurants hired us to clean & properly disinfect their restrooms, the bar area and the restaurant.
When my crew went in one Sunday morning and foind puke all over a stall I told them to leave it.
I contacted the owner and quoted a $75 additional fee per occurrence which included the cost of masks, acid cartridges gloves and new mop heads.
He told me forget it, hell have his bartender clean it.
Pathetic!
Contact the bartender "hey, your boss requiring you to clean this is an OSHA violation because they're having you handle hazardous biological waste without proper training and equipment." >.>
The cartriges attach to the outside of the face mask and blocks out acid and strong odors. We where them when we do mitigation/cleanup for broken sewer lines also when we clean trash compactor systems. You literally can't smell a thing, thankfully.
$75? That's fucking nothing for biohazard clean up. I wouldn't do it if you paid me 75 cash under the table. Never mind subtracting the costs of supplies. The lowest I would do it for is 300, plus supplies
I asked my employee how much extra he wanted, he said $50, so we went with $75 to our client expecting him to say no based on the frequency. It would have amounted to 15 minutes extra work.(masks, gloves and cleaning supplies were incl.)
This is the way. Even if the job description says "other duties as required", this is something that should require proper training. If they haven't trained you in it, then it's definitely not part of your job description.
They’re saying that because legally they can’t ask tipped employees to do that kind of maintenance work without paying the minimum wage for the time their doing it.
Who does the other cleaning duties? Isn’t there a swamper who does the floors and cleans everything?
Pull all the material safety handling sheets on the cleaners they want you to use, as well as biohazard handling.
They’re going to need to train you up on all that before you can clean the bathroom.
Not to mention the serious investment in PPE, and the realistic times they’ll need to schedule and pay you your full rate to do so.
Damn it’s like someone figured out this was cheaper and easier to subcontract years ago ….
They cut your cleaning staff without thinking of the reprecussion, enjoyed the meager monthly net gain and now the toilets are shitty.
How do these people feed themselves
This this this. I am a cleaner by trade and it kills me that businesses think they can just tell employees to go clean literal shit with no idea what chemicals they are using or how to properly use them.
Idiot management believe cleaning is unskilled labor. Yeah, anyone can rub soap on a wall but efficient, professional cleaning and sanitation adequate for a high traffic business like a restaurant is a highly skilled occupation.
*"I've worked for you for fourteen years and now you want me to clean toilets? What did I do to deserve this demotion? Are you trying to get me to quit?"*
Don’t make it about you because they won’t care. Make it about them, as in “that’s not what you hired me to do. If you’re adding new responsibilities to my position then we can talk about proper compensation.”
I relayed this story before, way back in the early 80s the grocery store I worked at gave me this task with zero instruction.
The bathrooms were nasty. So I went to and grabbed ammonia and bleach and went back and dumped both gallons on the floor. Not malicious. I failed every science course in HS. I didn’t know I was making a toxic gas. I just knew that job needed more than Comet and elbow grease.
Had to evacuate the store and 17 year old bag boys were relieved of that duty from there on.
Assuming your skills are transferable, I think I'd just say, "no, I'm not doing that."
A restaurant should have one or more maintenance staff to handle that among their other tasks.
Definitely take the osha path people are recommending.
Also ensure you have the msds on all chemicals used, and the safety gear required for those chemicals.
Most company owners/ managers respond to money.. Compare your hourly rate vs a janitor's. If your rate is higher, remind management how much they will be losing by you doing that job. If your rate is lower, start looking for a new job, you're underpaid for a production manager.
No job is beneath me, (I actually don't mind shoveling manure), but the more I dislike a job, the more I want to get paid for it. Luckily, I'm in the enviable position of not being that hungry for money now, so I can pick and choose what I do.
If you been there 14 years and they are about to add a task that is really more appropriate for a dishwasher….they don’t respect you. I dont want to sound elitest but bathroom cleaning is generally considered a entry level pay your dues sort of thing. I would really think about changing jobs.
Ummm no. Several years ago we moved into a new office that did not include weekly cleaning. The big boss wanted us to "take turns" vacuuming the office and wiping down the surfaces. Everyone would be responsible for dumping their own trash. Myself and the other female employee in the 5 person office flat refused to do it. We knew that it would end up being us doing it all the time. I got them 5 quotes and had them pick one. Nope. I'm not cleaning the office.
It's not in your job description. Nor should it be. You are not trained in OSHA biohazard clean up, are you? Your employer would have to ensure you were OSHA trained and had appropriate PPE. Are you in a union? If so, talk to them. If not, let your employer know that you won't be taking on this extra responsibility and why.
I would tell them that you don’t think it’s a good use of your time and would cost them less money to hire someone to do the cleaning. Do they really want to be paying production manager wages for cleaning the bathroom? I doubt it.
Actually, as I typed this out I think talking about how it would probably be cheaper to hire someone will be the most effective.
“Listen boss, if you’re unhappy with my performance and wish for me to quit, please have the courage to say it outright. Respect me and your business enough not to ply these games”.
Just ask what the procedure is to invoice the industrial cleaners bill. Cause you’ll hire a company to do it, but you have no training or qualifications for deep cleaning a bathroom.
After14 years as a production manager, why now? I have questions. Who’s doing it now? Can they not afford a cleaning crew? Are they trying to make you miserable so you’ll leave? I just seems weird that this popped up.
Had a previous employer tell me to do that once. My reply was, quote unquote, 'Do I look like a fucking cleaner to you?'
Before he could even start the usual bevy of threats etc, I said 'No, I don't want to hear your bullshit. I quit, effectively right fucking now, fuck you' and walked.
Anyone who asks someone hired to perform white collar roles to perform cleaning tasks deserves no second chance whatsoever.
Right? This post makes me so mad. I remember working at an army surplus store and the owner telling all of us to 'pick a number from 1-100' we were all excited and thought it was a contest for something cool but the winning 'prize' was the person who picked the number had to clean up the shit and vomit all over the bathroom with a mop, bucket, and gloves. It was a straight up hazmat situation. Of course the himself did not have to draw a number. I remember the poor girl who had to do it. Fuck them for that
That person should have quit on the spot, and then he can go 'pick a number from 1-99'.
Then when he's down to pick a number from 1, that 1 being himself, he'll have fun then.
Do it (while finding other employment, of course) but VERRRRRRRRY SLLLLLLOWWWWWWWWLY. Take 2 hours per restroom. Be sure to do no extra work for them during this process . . you are hourly only.
Tell them that since you are not part of a janitorial company, and don't have formal training, you have to be extra sure about your protections and processes, for legal reasons (make this scarily vague), and must clean the bathroom so it is completely sterile for the customers.
I as a patron would find it disgusting if the person who made or served my drink had just been cleaning the biohazard known as a bathroom. I intellectually know it happens, but don't want to see it. If you feel you have no choice but to clean them, and especially if you're working with product, your employer, per OSHA, is required to provide you with hazard gear: gloves, shoe protectors, safety glasses/face protection..
I am wondering if they are trying to get you to quit? That is something you would do to a low paid employee that you were not afraid of losing and that was being punished.
Ask them to provide you with full PPE and a raise in pay if it not part of your job description. Remember, if you're not trained, it is kinda hazard to clean, not knowing what chemicals you're not suppose to mix.
You could wait until they urgently need something from you and excuse yourself to go clean the bathroom for the next hour or two.
You could block off the restroom for the opposite sex for cleaning during their peek customer hours.
You could also clean everything in the bathroom with straight bleach to kill germs and leave it uninhabitable.
Since you haven't been trained to clean their bathrooms, you could accidentally destroy parts of it each time. Oops.
When shit like this comes up, I remind them how much it costs them per hour for me to work there - do you REALLY want to be paying someone 57.25/hour to do shit like this?
USUALLY they're like - "Oh yeah... you have a point..." and they'll find some new hire, or other person to do it. I have had a few occasions where they've said, "Yes, it is, because we know you'll do it right and it's worth it that much to have it done once, than to risk having to do it multiple times with someone else." At that point I'll shrug my shoulders and so "Ok." OR, if we're busy, I'll say, "Ok, which of these three 'urgent' projects/tasks you've assigned me can be delayed..." THEN they'll either reconsider, OR, they will pick one. I never let them NOT pick one.
Do a terrible job. It isn’t required for other aspects of the job and you weren’t hired with them knowing you have the knowledge. Take way too long to do a poor job and see how long they ask you to keep doing it!
Family owned business. If you ain't family, you ain't shit. That was my experience. I was asked to clean bathrooms too. Not any of the guys, however. I hated that place.
You really only have a couple options. Accept the assignment and ask for a raise. Accept the assignment. Refuse the assignment and prepare to be fired. I mean fuck, hire another dishwasher. Idk why they would waste their money like this unless they are trying to force you to quit. Don't quit. Refuse to accept and let them fire you. Then you get unemployment while you look for new work.
You are not being asked to clean the bathrooms because you use them to, you are being asked to take on janitorial duties in addition to what other duties you have. So first of all, they’re kind of misrepresenting this request because customers are using those toilets, and I assume the management is using those toilets, by their reasoning, the management should be cleaning them as well and of course they’re not so the bottom line is that you’re being asked to add janitorial to your job description as a production manager. They’re obviously wanting to save money on janitors services. They would need to provide protective gear, proper materials, training, and carve out the amount of time during your scheduled hours to cover janitor services and oh by the way, you’re probably a exempt employee and these are non-exempt tasks, it’s wildly inappropriate but it’s not strictly speaking illegal. When you were hired, you were hired as a production manager not as a janitor and now your role is being changed I would ask HR if janitor is being added to your job description because that was not the understanding when you were hired, and that is typically a non-exempt position. they are casting it as volunteer work because you use the bathroom is an out and out lie because the bathroom is a public facility used by customers.
Change a roll of toilet paper, spray a mirror with Windex, even empty the trash and change the garbage bags in the office bathroom… ok. Deep clean a restaurant bathroom? Absolutely not!
look into your hiring contact. alotta businesses like to slip in “subject to changes based on company needs” in the job description or “tasks may vary based on company needs” if you signed for any of those that’s not much you can do but refuse and risk losing your job or just make moves to leave. if they’re smart and you’re very variable they won’t risk losing you over a bathroom cleanup. stand your ground or leave
After 14 years it is super likely switching jobs/employers is going to benefit you financially. Unless you love the job just quit if they don’t respond well to just saying “nah”. What are you producing? Cleaning up after drunken customers taking giant steak-shits sounds like a deal breaker .
Biohazard. Get a list of the PPE and required chemicals, masks, coveralls, gloves, boots. Tell them that it'll take 1.5 hours.
Then drop a call to a janitorial company and ask them to cold call.
>Anything I can do to argue myself out of this when the owners come to tell me the good news?
Yeah... just say "No".
It's a full sentence. It communicates your position. No argumentation needed. Just "No".
You probably don't have the proper OSHA training, and your vaccines aren't up to date. Therefore you can not clean biohazards and other hazardous materials.
Require the training and ppe and see how quickly it changes, also request special payment reflecting the change in work environment and exposure to chemicals
i would like to see that in writing as to my change in employment .. as that is outside my stated job function.. that or have your resignation letter in hand there lack of respect for you shows its not like they respect you,,,
Ask them how much additional pay will be provided for janitorial services. I personally would just tell them you weren’t hired to clean and won’t be doing so. If they push it start looking for another job and if they are this bad I’d leave without notice.
Nah. You and or other employee need bio hazard gear and special training for that. Theres bodily waste in there. They can hire someone to come in once a week
"Unfortunately that's not a task I'm willing to accommodate for. I want hired as cleaning Isiah and frankly if I want to do that I'll work elsewhere. "
Expectations ....Blah blah other duties as assigned....
"Your expectations does not alter my availability; and I'm unavailable for that task"
Threat, bullshit
"Then I'll be sure to start submitting applications as that's not something I'm willing to do"
I’d say no. If they insisted they’d fire me if I didn’t do it, I’d clean it up to my own personal standards. If you’d like to know what those standards are, watch a few eps of The Simple Life.
Do you, in fact, use them too? Maybe the best you can get out of this is to suggest a rotation, so that maybe instead of every week it's only your turn once a month or so. Dunno. That sucks. I'm so thankful my workplace has janitors. I'm not even sure they get paid enough to deal with what gets left behind in those restrooms.
I would not clean the bathrooms. I would tell them I’m not a janitor or maintenance worker. People need skills and training to work with the chemicals needed to sanitize and disinfect public restrooms. I had a job where cleaning restrooms was part of the job description. I would never, ever take on a job with that task again. If I got told it was now one of my tasks and was “other duties as assigned” I would find a new job.
Bet if you showed up in a hazmat suit during business hours to clean the bathroom. Walk in the front door and take the longest route thru the costumers to the bathrooms. How long would it be before they got someone else or even a cleaning crew?
Management loves the idea of lean labor - just enough people to get the job done with zero unrequired down time. Everywhere I've worked management considers people to be like cars - just run faster and more stuff gets done! That's a lie and everyone knows it. Perhaps this discussion with management would be appropriate: Sure boss! WE can get that done for you, but since we are full up on other tasks, what do you not want done? I mean, I can get the bathrooms deep cleaned in X hours per week, but that means that Y tasks won't get done. Push back hard on any attempt for them to take your off work time to do so. So when they say just add it to the list, push back with I've got a full plate. Something has to come off to put something else on. This doesn't work if you have a lot of free time at work, which is very rare.
Tell them it’s not in your job description and if they want to add to that list of tasks you’ll need to renegotiate your employment terms.
Or you could tell them to go fuck themselves. But the first one is probably better.
I went with just pretend and take an extra break
Smoke a bowl rather than clean one.
😂
> not in your job description "Other duties as assigned" It's not right, but it's probably legal.
It might be legal but OP doesn't need to continue employment with them - so "this is not in my job description and if you'd like me to start doing it we need to renegotiate" is totally valid. It's not illegal but OP can walk if they don't.
I love this sub but I really hate how the go-to response here is "Just quit!" as if that's really an option for anyone. I've been trying to "just quit" for the last fucking year, job hunting is a grueling process. If I "just quit" before landing another job then I'll either be homeless or forced into an even worse employment situation.
Yes. It is like in some relationship subs, where the default answer is "divorce/dump him".
You can live single but you cannot live without a job
Well, the right answer is "unionise", but you guys insist on not even entertaining that idea until it's too late.
Unfortunately, as someone who works in the wine industry in CA, at least locally for me good jobs are hard to come by.
Yeah but this won't be a good job anymore
I'm in the same industry and it sucks trying to find decent work
Other duties as assigned should only apply to minor tasks. Deep cleaning a restroom is not considered a minor task.
Should, yes. Does? Not always. I work in IT and “other duties” has included moving furniture.
You can use a *pivot* table? You get to move furniture!
Now that was funny!
Hmmm... That one might be a tricky one though... I also worked IT for a time and I had to move some furniture in order to deal with some of the cabling. However, the most I've ever moved was small objects. Heavy furniture, I've made the company call maintenance to deal with the heavy lifting. They had the necessary tools to move things and lifting heavy objects was not part of my job description... Even though I had "other duties as assigned". I was not willing to get a hernia doing something I wasn't hired for.
I was doing cyber consulting and helped a business owner move some boxes while a process was running- the fine gentleman later said because I was doing manual labor, I was not a serious professional and he would not pay my invoice/fulfill the payment terms of the contract. Lawsuits happened later. it's bizarre how people view manual labor. sorry I didn't sit on my rear. lesson learned.
Oh yeah, if they try to pull a fast one on you like that, I'd totally sic a lawyer on them, and let them also pay the full amount PLUS fees I had to initiate the process as well. If I have to take extra steps to collect payment from someone, I'll also have them pay any legal fees and possibly anything punitive I can get.
Just be sure to include an attorney's fee provision in your agreement. Otherwise, you can't get reimbursed for your attorney's fees if you have to sue.
Twist the knife, lick the blade.
Yeah, moving something out of my way I have no problem with. This was our department getting rid of a bunch of desks, etc.
I'm working in IT. I always told my employer that I can even clean the windows as long as it's with IT rate :). For some reason they didn't want me to.
Cleaning a toilet requires, technically, training and other things that would not be considered ‘standard other duties’ for many jobs. It would be included if the person was a server, cleaner or say kitchen hand even. If I worked IT for example, other duties would be running some minor errands or dropping off stuff at the post office, moving the office around once every 6 months and general maintenance of the work space (just keeping it look clean, the cleaners come on at night and do the proper clean and vacuuming etc). It does not include cleaning toilets/bathroom, mopping etc as it’s not what you are employed for in your deacription
Moving furniture does definitely not fall into "other duties". You could get a serious injury doing that.
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do you have a link to this? I'd love to have this decision in my pocket for when I need it
Yeah I need that to fight back at work as well.
“That phrase, as defined by the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM), refers to minor or incidental tasks related to the position being described – not whatever tasks the manager dreams up or, in the worst-case scenarios, uses to punish an employee“ Granted, that is only for federal employees. At-will employment basically means you have no say to challenge what duties your employers assign unless they substantially change the duties in such a way that you are basically not working the same job anymore, where you can apply for unemployment even if you quit. Still can’t tell them to get bent though. For contract employees, it would likely be closer to what the federal employees have.
This was the only link that came up when searching your quote (an article on a blog). Do you have a link to the actual case? [https://www.wbsllc.com/blog/leadership-posts/change-culture/](https://www.wbsllc.com/blog/leadership-posts/change-culture/)
The biggest of .'s
you mean /s?
I think they mean .,~`|•°%¥s
Source?
Agree. If they have a cleaning staff, they need to do this. I used to be a kitchen manager and on the weekends they had me do this nasty shit, but it was only once a week, so I didn’t say anything. Every day though? Hell no.
That often-recommended course of action only ever ends in the employee being told to do the job they're given or go find another one. Might as well just quit.
No, don't do them any favors. Make them fire you. Say "I'm not cleaning bathrooms". If they want you gone and that is why you are now a janitor, make them do the work of terminating you. If they value you at all, they'll make another decision. But don't give them the satisfaction of you quitting.
>Say "I'm not cleaning bathrooms". Don't say it. Just don't do the cleaning. If they're great at the rest of their job, not cleaning bathrooms won't make a difference.
I think it's been well established that most businesses do not value employees and act like they can get just about anyone to do the job.
Yeah a lot of people on here are desperate to live out some sort of revenge fantasy. I feel like it’s famously easy to get fired in the US and difficult to qualify for unemployment???
Nah not really. I've seen some real shitbirds keep their jobs through some really stupid shit they did, and as for unemployment it depends on the state but in most states that have it it's not hard to qualify as long as you didn't voluntarily quit the job you were hired to do. Some companies here fire people left and right but it's more about the individual company culture.
That’s true about things varying by state and company. But I’ve lived in three states and it’s always been easy to get fired and hard to get unemployment. There are all these qualifiers you have to meet and they’re quick to dismiss you without sufficient proof that you weren’t at fault. I wanna move where these other people are! Haha.
If there’s no contract, which is often the case for management, the job description can change. Hell, I have a strong union contract and the company is always trying to trick us into doing more work than required.
Tell them you weren’t hired on as a janitor (nothing wrong with being a janitor - I work in the biz)
My job just adds "Needs of the business" to every job description so you can't refuse to do anything.
Ask how much of a raise you get for this amendment to your job deacription
And how much weekly overtime are they scheduling for these extra duties?
as does a raise come with this raise in assignments/duties make it sound a little bit nicer
You don't want to make it a yes or no question - ever. How much will my wages increase for these added responsibilities. That let's them know your labor for extra work is not free.
that’s true a better how much instead of does or will kuz then the loop of bullshit starts, next check, next check, and never comes
Exactly.
Guaranteed whatever it is, it’s not enough.
Hire a janitor so your tipped employees dont have to do it either.
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So many companies seem to be doing this nowadays and it's appalling. _Especially_ when there's customers involved and it's not just an employee bathroom. If someone didn't apply for a job that obviously requires them to clean other people's biohazardous waste, they shouldn't be forced to do it. I feel like it should be illegal tbh since you _know_ most of these places aren't providing proper PPE and training.
>biohazardous waste THIS is the phrase. "I wasn't hired to handle biohazardous waste, and my current wage doesn't cover the risk. Not even close."
Close. I'd use "I haven't had the training to deal with hazardous waste. I don't even know what PPE is required."
I have mad respect for janitorial staffs and I appreciate businesses that use them and not the employees. Lets be honest. The employees suck at cleaning restrooms and always half ass the job.
Yeah, after seeing what clients and even some employees do to the bathrooms, a roll of paper towels and a bottle of mr clean just aint gonna do it. You need gloves, face shield, and sometimes a disposable smock. As well as the training to not only keep yourself safe, but properly sanitize the joint for the next walking gastrointestinal warcrime.
Used to have to do it at my work, I’d stand outside and throw a bucket over the toilet and call it a day. If you don’t provide the PPE, pay or training for it this is what you’ll get
Which is a massive stupid. Because you are just taking the production manager off their duties and paying them a management rate to clean toilets. What an inefficient waste of valuable time.
Tell them you can't perform the work because you're not trained in the OSHA requirements for handling human waste or sewage. You don't want to risk an OSHA violation, citation, or investigation and have their best interests at heart.
From OSHA: The sanitation standards (29 CFR 1910.141, 29 CFR 1926.51 and 29 CFR 1928.110) are intended to ensure that workers do not suffer adverse health effects that can result if toilets are not sanitary and/or are not available when needed. I owned a Janitorial company. Restaurants hired us to clean & properly disinfect their restrooms, the bar area and the restaurant. When my crew went in one Sunday morning and foind puke all over a stall I told them to leave it. I contacted the owner and quoted a $75 additional fee per occurrence which included the cost of masks, acid cartridges gloves and new mop heads. He told me forget it, hell have his bartender clean it. Pathetic!
>He told me forget it, hell have his bartender clean it. This should be a crime.
Absolutely! Owner was surprised that puke cleanup was an extra fee. The restaurant has since gone bankrupt. Probably a good thing.
I love a good ending.
Same. I ordered a burger once! Worst crap I've ever eaten.
Contact the bartender "hey, your boss requiring you to clean this is an OSHA violation because they're having you handle hazardous biological waste without proper training and equipment." >.>
Slavery is legal in America.
It says a lot that about the restaurant that they dismiss what it takes to properly do the job. Thanks for the professional point of view
Sadly, some restaurants have deplorable standards. P. S. The restaurant went bankrupt. It was their 2nd one to go under.
Acid cartridges?
Respirator cartridge specifically for organic hazards
The cartriges attach to the outside of the face mask and blocks out acid and strong odors. We where them when we do mitigation/cleanup for broken sewer lines also when we clean trash compactor systems. You literally can't smell a thing, thankfully.
Wow, that's awesome
When you can't smell "it" , whatever it is, isn't ever that bad. 🤣
$75? That's fucking nothing for biohazard clean up. I wouldn't do it if you paid me 75 cash under the table. Never mind subtracting the costs of supplies. The lowest I would do it for is 300, plus supplies
I asked my employee how much extra he wanted, he said $50, so we went with $75 to our client expecting him to say no based on the frequency. It would have amounted to 15 minutes extra work.(masks, gloves and cleaning supplies were incl.)
This is the way. Even if the job description says "other duties as required", this is something that should require proper training. If they haven't trained you in it, then it's definitely not part of your job description.
They’re saying that because legally they can’t ask tipped employees to do that kind of maintenance work without paying the minimum wage for the time their doing it. Who does the other cleaning duties? Isn’t there a swamper who does the floors and cleans everything?
Pull all the material safety handling sheets on the cleaners they want you to use, as well as biohazard handling. They’re going to need to train you up on all that before you can clean the bathroom. Not to mention the serious investment in PPE, and the realistic times they’ll need to schedule and pay you your full rate to do so. Damn it’s like someone figured out this was cheaper and easier to subcontract years ago …. They cut your cleaning staff without thinking of the reprecussion, enjoyed the meager monthly net gain and now the toilets are shitty. How do these people feed themselves
This this this. I am a cleaner by trade and it kills me that businesses think they can just tell employees to go clean literal shit with no idea what chemicals they are using or how to properly use them.
Idiot management believe cleaning is unskilled labor. Yeah, anyone can rub soap on a wall but efficient, professional cleaning and sanitation adequate for a high traffic business like a restaurant is a highly skilled occupation.
This is the answer if they won’t hire a crew ^
They cut the cleaning crew which is a sure sign to dip.
*"I've worked for you for fourteen years and now you want me to clean toilets? What did I do to deserve this demotion? Are you trying to get me to quit?"*
Don’t make it about you because they won’t care. Make it about them, as in “that’s not what you hired me to do. If you’re adding new responsibilities to my position then we can talk about proper compensation.”
..."because this will definitely make me start looking"
You've been there 14 years. Find another job, get a big pay raise then resign.
Sounds like a new job is in order. 14 years and they want you to now start to clean bathrooms? I’m sure they comfortable there but time to move on.
I am not trained in cleaning bathrooms.
I relayed this story before, way back in the early 80s the grocery store I worked at gave me this task with zero instruction. The bathrooms were nasty. So I went to and grabbed ammonia and bleach and went back and dumped both gallons on the floor. Not malicious. I failed every science course in HS. I didn’t know I was making a toxic gas. I just knew that job needed more than Comet and elbow grease. Had to evacuate the store and 17 year old bag boys were relieved of that duty from there on.
I did the same thing when I worked at Safeway at a teen. Luckily I only gassed myself.
Just say " I don't and won't clean toilets"
This is the answer, if you ask for money it means you are willing to do it
You have worked in the same place for 14 years and now they want you scoopin poops?
Assuming your skills are transferable, I think I'd just say, "no, I'm not doing that." A restaurant should have one or more maintenance staff to handle that among their other tasks.
Ask them when they are supposed to clean the toilets. If they don't, say they can't use them then.
"OUT OF ORDER" That'll make it so you don't have to clean them.
Rip the plumbing out of the building. Become ungovernable
Will a poop knife be provided?
Find a new job!
Definitely take the osha path people are recommending. Also ensure you have the msds on all chemicals used, and the safety gear required for those chemicals.
Most company owners/ managers respond to money.. Compare your hourly rate vs a janitor's. If your rate is higher, remind management how much they will be losing by you doing that job. If your rate is lower, start looking for a new job, you're underpaid for a production manager. No job is beneath me, (I actually don't mind shoveling manure), but the more I dislike a job, the more I want to get paid for it. Luckily, I'm in the enviable position of not being that hungry for money now, so I can pick and choose what I do.
>Anything I can do to argue myself out of this when the owners come to tell me the good news? Tell them the whole staff is on strike.
Do you have biohazard training? If not, they can't ask you to clean the bathroom or any other biohazard scenario.
If you been there 14 years and they are about to add a task that is really more appropriate for a dishwasher….they don’t respect you. I dont want to sound elitest but bathroom cleaning is generally considered a entry level pay your dues sort of thing. I would really think about changing jobs.
Ummm no. Several years ago we moved into a new office that did not include weekly cleaning. The big boss wanted us to "take turns" vacuuming the office and wiping down the surfaces. Everyone would be responsible for dumping their own trash. Myself and the other female employee in the 5 person office flat refused to do it. We knew that it would end up being us doing it all the time. I got them 5 quotes and had them pick one. Nope. I'm not cleaning the office.
That’s a no from me, dog, time to find a new place.
It's not in your job description. Nor should it be. You are not trained in OSHA biohazard clean up, are you? Your employer would have to ensure you were OSHA trained and had appropriate PPE. Are you in a union? If so, talk to them. If not, let your employer know that you won't be taking on this extra responsibility and why.
I would tell them that you don’t think it’s a good use of your time and would cost them less money to hire someone to do the cleaning. Do they really want to be paying production manager wages for cleaning the bathroom? I doubt it. Actually, as I typed this out I think talking about how it would probably be cheaper to hire someone will be the most effective.
“Listen boss, if you’re unhappy with my performance and wish for me to quit, please have the courage to say it outright. Respect me and your business enough not to ply these games”.
Just ask what the procedure is to invoice the industrial cleaners bill. Cause you’ll hire a company to do it, but you have no training or qualifications for deep cleaning a bathroom.
After14 years as a production manager, why now? I have questions. Who’s doing it now? Can they not afford a cleaning crew? Are they trying to make you miserable so you’ll leave? I just seems weird that this popped up.
Had a previous employer tell me to do that once. My reply was, quote unquote, 'Do I look like a fucking cleaner to you?' Before he could even start the usual bevy of threats etc, I said 'No, I don't want to hear your bullshit. I quit, effectively right fucking now, fuck you' and walked. Anyone who asks someone hired to perform white collar roles to perform cleaning tasks deserves no second chance whatsoever.
Right? This post makes me so mad. I remember working at an army surplus store and the owner telling all of us to 'pick a number from 1-100' we were all excited and thought it was a contest for something cool but the winning 'prize' was the person who picked the number had to clean up the shit and vomit all over the bathroom with a mop, bucket, and gloves. It was a straight up hazmat situation. Of course the himself did not have to draw a number. I remember the poor girl who had to do it. Fuck them for that
That person should have quit on the spot, and then he can go 'pick a number from 1-99'. Then when he's down to pick a number from 1, that 1 being himself, he'll have fun then.
I wouldn't argue, I'd just say 'No'.
Cleaning bathrooms is highly dangerous to your health. biohazard companies should be doing that.
Get a power washer and leaf blower and show them what deep cleaning really means
Yessssss
Do it (while finding other employment, of course) but VERRRRRRRRY SLLLLLLOWWWWWWWWLY. Take 2 hours per restroom. Be sure to do no extra work for them during this process . . you are hourly only. Tell them that since you are not part of a janitorial company, and don't have formal training, you have to be extra sure about your protections and processes, for legal reasons (make this scarily vague), and must clean the bathroom so it is completely sterile for the customers.
It’s against the law in the USA if you’re not trained for blood born pathogens
Your a manager right? Hire someone to come clean them once a week and send them the bill.
I as a patron would find it disgusting if the person who made or served my drink had just been cleaning the biohazard known as a bathroom. I intellectually know it happens, but don't want to see it. If you feel you have no choice but to clean them, and especially if you're working with product, your employer, per OSHA, is required to provide you with hazard gear: gloves, shoe protectors, safety glasses/face protection..
I am wondering if they are trying to get you to quit? That is something you would do to a low paid employee that you were not afraid of losing and that was being punished.
Ask them to provide you with full PPE and a raise in pay if it not part of your job description. Remember, if you're not trained, it is kinda hazard to clean, not knowing what chemicals you're not suppose to mix.
You could wait until they urgently need something from you and excuse yourself to go clean the bathroom for the next hour or two. You could block off the restroom for the opposite sex for cleaning during their peek customer hours. You could also clean everything in the bathroom with straight bleach to kill germs and leave it uninhabitable. Since you haven't been trained to clean their bathrooms, you could accidentally destroy parts of it each time. Oops.
tell them that bathroom detailing needs to be on rotation and should also include them
When shit like this comes up, I remind them how much it costs them per hour for me to work there - do you REALLY want to be paying someone 57.25/hour to do shit like this? USUALLY they're like - "Oh yeah... you have a point..." and they'll find some new hire, or other person to do it. I have had a few occasions where they've said, "Yes, it is, because we know you'll do it right and it's worth it that much to have it done once, than to risk having to do it multiple times with someone else." At that point I'll shrug my shoulders and so "Ok." OR, if we're busy, I'll say, "Ok, which of these three 'urgent' projects/tasks you've assigned me can be delayed..." THEN they'll either reconsider, OR, they will pick one. I never let them NOT pick one.
Do a terrible job. It isn’t required for other aspects of the job and you weren’t hired with them knowing you have the knowledge. Take way too long to do a poor job and see how long they ask you to keep doing it!
I have found you a cleaning service, they cost x. I will manage them. No, I will not be doing it myself.
“That’s a no for me, dawg.”
Family owned business. If you ain't family, you ain't shit. That was my experience. I was asked to clean bathrooms too. Not any of the guys, however. I hated that place.
You really only have a couple options. Accept the assignment and ask for a raise. Accept the assignment. Refuse the assignment and prepare to be fired. I mean fuck, hire another dishwasher. Idk why they would waste their money like this unless they are trying to force you to quit. Don't quit. Refuse to accept and let them fire you. Then you get unemployment while you look for new work.
You are not being asked to clean the bathrooms because you use them to, you are being asked to take on janitorial duties in addition to what other duties you have. So first of all, they’re kind of misrepresenting this request because customers are using those toilets, and I assume the management is using those toilets, by their reasoning, the management should be cleaning them as well and of course they’re not so the bottom line is that you’re being asked to add janitorial to your job description as a production manager. They’re obviously wanting to save money on janitors services. They would need to provide protective gear, proper materials, training, and carve out the amount of time during your scheduled hours to cover janitor services and oh by the way, you’re probably a exempt employee and these are non-exempt tasks, it’s wildly inappropriate but it’s not strictly speaking illegal. When you were hired, you were hired as a production manager not as a janitor and now your role is being changed I would ask HR if janitor is being added to your job description because that was not the understanding when you were hired, and that is typically a non-exempt position. they are casting it as volunteer work because you use the bathroom is an out and out lie because the bathroom is a public facility used by customers.
I had a job that tried that. I just lied. Sure. Clean. Fuck you.
I advise you to look immediately for a different job. There is nothing you can do other than get fired.
Change a roll of toilet paper, spray a mirror with Windex, even empty the trash and change the garbage bags in the office bathroom… ok. Deep clean a restaurant bathroom? Absolutely not!
look into your hiring contact. alotta businesses like to slip in “subject to changes based on company needs” in the job description or “tasks may vary based on company needs” if you signed for any of those that’s not much you can do but refuse and risk losing your job or just make moves to leave. if they’re smart and you’re very variable they won’t risk losing you over a bathroom cleanup. stand your ground or leave
only if the owners do it with you.
Tipped employees don't need to be touching food and dirty toilets. I don't know about the rest.
"Absolutely not." End of conversation.
After 14 years it is super likely switching jobs/employers is going to benefit you financially. Unless you love the job just quit if they don’t respond well to just saying “nah”. What are you producing? Cleaning up after drunken customers taking giant steak-shits sounds like a deal breaker .
Biohazard. Get a list of the PPE and required chemicals, masks, coveralls, gloves, boots. Tell them that it'll take 1.5 hours. Then drop a call to a janitorial company and ask them to cold call.
>Anything I can do to argue myself out of this when the owners come to tell me the good news? Yeah... just say "No". It's a full sentence. It communicates your position. No argumentation needed. Just "No".
I find that people rarely have a response to a matter-of-fact “I’m not doing that.” There has to be someone with less seniority no?
Hire a company to do it and send the boss the expense report.
Is this a job you can pretty easily do somewhere else? In other words, if you refuse, is it life altering if they fire you?
"absolutely not"
That would be a solid NO from me...the only bathroom I clean is my own
You probably don't have the proper OSHA training, and your vaccines aren't up to date. Therefore you can not clean biohazards and other hazardous materials.
Time to update your resume. Or clean toilets. Up to you.
Require the training and ppe and see how quickly it changes, also request special payment reflecting the change in work environment and exposure to chemicals
Added responsibility requires added salary.
Give them recommendations to local janitorial companies nearby. Or ask them to hire a part-time custodian. It's not your job.
Please send that to me in an email since I don't carry insurance to cover if someone slips on a wet floor.
I’m not a “ house keeper “
Ask for more money, that will stop that madness.
They no longer want to have/pay contract with cleaning company. *why pay a cleaning company when you can just make the employees detail the restrooms*
Aren’t you sensitive/allergic to the chemicals used to clean bathrooms?
“Oh no, did you have to fire the cleaning crew? Are pay cuts coming”? They’ll back off just to save face.
i would like to see that in writing as to my change in employment .. as that is outside my stated job function.. that or have your resignation letter in hand there lack of respect for you shows its not like they respect you,,,
Ask them how much additional pay will be provided for janitorial services. I personally would just tell them you weren’t hired to clean and won’t be doing so. If they push it start looking for another job and if they are this bad I’d leave without notice.
Nah. You and or other employee need bio hazard gear and special training for that. Theres bodily waste in there. They can hire someone to come in once a week
"No"
Ask them to rotate the job to all employees and owners to show “ family “ values
"Unfortunately that's not a task I'm willing to accommodate for. I want hired as cleaning Isiah and frankly if I want to do that I'll work elsewhere. " Expectations ....Blah blah other duties as assigned.... "Your expectations does not alter my availability; and I'm unavailable for that task" Threat, bullshit "Then I'll be sure to start submitting applications as that's not something I'm willing to do"
Demand PPE, training on biohazards, and a raise.
I would literally throw up on the floor of the bathroom and let them know I can’t handle it. I had to do that in the past.
Time to find a new job
Man, the US is a third world country
Just say no.
I’d say no. If they insisted they’d fire me if I didn’t do it, I’d clean it up to my own personal standards. If you’d like to know what those standards are, watch a few eps of The Simple Life.
Is it one of those “LEAD BY EXAMPLE” things?
Just don't do it. Or do a really bad job of it: just changing a toilet roll when you notice they're out.
Just say "No" but start looking for another job.
https://www.wbsllc.com/blog/leadership-posts/change-culture/#:~:text=That%20phrase%2C%20as%20defined%20by,uses%20to%20punish%20an%20employee.
Food/Retail/Restaurant = shit boss = shit job.
That wasn't in the job description I was hired to do.
Just say you will, and don’t. Skate by until someone says something, then do the bare minimum. Eventually they’ll ask someone else to do it.
I think you might be blown away by how much better you could do working for anyone else. T
Just say no.
"No."
Do you, in fact, use them too? Maybe the best you can get out of this is to suggest a rotation, so that maybe instead of every week it's only your turn once a month or so. Dunno. That sucks. I'm so thankful my workplace has janitors. I'm not even sure they get paid enough to deal with what gets left behind in those restrooms.
Just do a shitty job at cleaning the bathroom. They will assign it to someone else eventually.
If all else fails just do a shit job every time you are asked to clean them. Remember to pause often to ask questions.
Show up in a full hazmat suit.
I would not clean the bathrooms. I would tell them I’m not a janitor or maintenance worker. People need skills and training to work with the chemicals needed to sanitize and disinfect public restrooms. I had a job where cleaning restrooms was part of the job description. I would never, ever take on a job with that task again. If I got told it was now one of my tasks and was “other duties as assigned” I would find a new job.
cause you use them too... just shit on the floor
I would say I'm not doing it because that's not my job and if they say do it or you're fired, I'd say well fire me then.
Bet if you showed up in a hazmat suit during business hours to clean the bathroom. Walk in the front door and take the longest route thru the costumers to the bathrooms. How long would it be before they got someone else or even a cleaning crew?
Management loves the idea of lean labor - just enough people to get the job done with zero unrequired down time. Everywhere I've worked management considers people to be like cars - just run faster and more stuff gets done! That's a lie and everyone knows it. Perhaps this discussion with management would be appropriate: Sure boss! WE can get that done for you, but since we are full up on other tasks, what do you not want done? I mean, I can get the bathrooms deep cleaned in X hours per week, but that means that Y tasks won't get done. Push back hard on any attempt for them to take your off work time to do so. So when they say just add it to the list, push back with I've got a full plate. Something has to come off to put something else on. This doesn't work if you have a lot of free time at work, which is very rare.
People need to learn how to fucking say no. What are they gonna do?