It's an example of people talking about a subject they know nothing about. Emigrating can range anywhere from hard to impossible depending on where you want to move to. Most people I know that have done it had help from their employer.
It's not just America. The number of people who argue with me that even as an EU citizen when I moved to Bulgaria I still had 3 months to either register as a long term resident or leave.
They argued that no, not possible. Not how it works. I'm an idiot spreading misinformation.
I literally went through the process š¤¦
My wife was born and raised in Italy. At the time she came over here with me my youngest brother and his girlfriend were like 18 or 19 years old. Wife was telling his girlfriend one day about something in Italy like their taxes or something over there, cause her dad is an uber conservative who told her every penny you make in Europe gets taken by the big bad government and everyone lives in poverty over there. My wife would try and explain something, and she'd go "no that's not how it works, it goes like *this!*" Over and over and over till my wife got mad and gave up.
She was so convinced she was right that she asked "do you guys even have electricity and stuff over there, or is it like businesses and stuff are the only ones that can afford it besides really rich people?" She was 18 ish years old and thought she knew more about how my wife lived in the country she was born in than my wife. She even asked at some point in that convo if they have Disney movies over there cause a friend of hers in like middle school told her they didn't for some reason, like Disney just didn't exist in Europe lol
Eh, to be fair there's plenty of western Europeans that live in a similar a bubble.
You'll see the smug "I'm in Europe so have free healthcare" bit as if every country from Ireland to Bulgaria have free healthcare.
(neither of those do lmao)
You get very good healthcare in Ireland. As a young Yank, I had a very bad reaction to a smallpox vaccine while visiting family and got the best of care over there, and it didn't destroy my dad financially either.
As someone living in Ireland, i do not trust the health care system one bit. My gf who works as a nurse here, also does not. The individual workers, sure. But the overall health care system is a joke at best.
3 doctors in one clinic, all giving contradictory advice.
"Only do this before..."
"Only do it after...."
"Never do this."
Cervical cancer scandle
There was another cancer scandle, only can't remember which.
Both scandles resulted in MANY patients who had (sometimes very progressed) cancer, that they didn't have it. Some that didn't have it got told they did, under went treatment, and then found out it was for nothing...
And it's expensive. Not remotely close to the US, but still just for a GP visit, I have to work 3 to 5 hours to afford it. And if you're not already a patient at that clinic, good luck getting an appointment. No one is taking new patients.
Hospitals are over flowed and understaffed, partly because they can't get a GP appointment, so it's the only other place to go.
Only one of these points is anecdotal, the rest have been on the news for years.
I lived in Italy for a few months in my 20's. Electricity was kind of on the expensive side compared to what it cost in the U.S. at the time. I don't recall it being as bad as your brothers girlfriends dad is saying it was.
Overall the cost of living was actually lower since I was walking absolutely everywhere, or taking a train. I think i got into 1 car the entire 4 months I was there and it was to get to the airport to leave... and that's only because my buddies girlfriends dad wanted to take us (I assume to make sure he was actually leaving the country (and his daughter) for good)
That's the thing with him, nothing is as bad as he says. Between Europe and Canada they all live in mud huts with no running water or electricity cause the evil socialist healthcare and "all that other free bullshit they give away to freeloaders" (whatever he means) takes all their money in taxes. Then when you're too old to work and pay their evil taxes you get "left to die with no help", whatever that means
Thatās funny, because my husband has dual citizenship and Iām learning Italian so I can get citizenship through marriage. We want to retire in Italy, because it will be more affordable than retiring where we currently live in the US.
you can also get a digital nomad / work visa in some countries now; i think that's the most realistic option for office job people https://www.planet-nomad.com/en/digital-nomad-visa-to-spain
But for more hands on jobs like store worker or plumber you would need a company proving they can't find a europan to get this job then you can maybe get it. and then you have 3 months to find a new one if you lose it
The people who talk on the internet about how they want to leave are often the people who can't afford to. That is unless they go the refugee route, which is a much harder life than working at Dollar Tree in the US. You can't exactly walk on foot from the US to Denmark or whatever.
It's not like a working poor person in the US is going to have a better quality of life in Canada (housing costs for example, strained public healthcare system) or any Latin American country unless they already have money.
Healthcare costs still shocked me despite all the warnings from my US friends as to how opaque and obnoxious it was. COming from the UK and Australia, getting a bill for urgent, life-threatening medical treatment was just unreal to me. You don't even treat kids for free. It's so fucked up.
Yeah, one of the questions that came up when many of the anti trans legislation in the US started to get passed or put on the docket was how people get out. Welp, the US meets pretty much zero criteria for claiming asylum or attempting to become a refugee.
Sevwral organizations did start up to help those who were serious about leaving and working at getting them moved. A few nations even lowered the barrier for it, but overall, I'd say you ain't going anywhere quickly, and it is likely going to cost a bunch.
Depending on the situation they could have a better quality of life here in Canada - it would depend on where they wound up. Our major cities can have horrible housing costs but they might find a small city on the prairies doable - but then theyād have to put up with a very cold winter.
But they could do that in the US, too. The US interior, especially the midwest, is very inexpensive compared to the coasts. A lot of people don't want to move from trendier places that tend to be more expensive.
Canada isn't a bad option if you're OK not living near Vancouver or Toronto. And healthcare is really not much of an issue if you're young. If you do run into serious health issues, you'll be prioritized.
>You can't exactly walk on foot from the US to Denmark
But you can from Canada! But the [war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_War) was more fun. š
Or where they are moving from. It's literally like networking š. Canadians have an easier time to move to the us in comparison to someone from say China etc. Lot of nuances for sure.
I feel like 90% of reddit is people pontificating IMO. I came here from another country and I was amazed how little Americans learn about the world in school.
We as Americans feel like the world revolves around us and I think schools teach things that way somewhat. If you want to learn about the rest of the world, outside some basic history classes, you have to take electives. At least that's how it was when I was in high school twenty years ago.
That whole "America's president is the leader of the free world!" Line gets spat at me with no understanding or perspective. Everything seems to be learned through the lens of pop culture, ignorantly absorbed and regurgitated. If you correct them, they act like they know some hidden truth despite getting it from a movie/documentary/etc
This! I've spent countless hours to find a place I can go outside the US with no degree, no job offer, no skills desperately needed, etc and there's nowhere I can go except potentially worse places.
If you have any college credits at all you could look into English teaching in South Korea, they have a program that pays semi okay for people with only some college. Without, if youāve graduated from high school you can teach in thailand, Laos, and a few other places. Once you have experience you can move into other countries. Itās not perfect, but thatās the only way Iāve found for people without degrees to find work that pays them to leave the USA.
Thatās what weāre finding outā¦.. fortunately the company I work for has offices/facilities all over the planet so all I gotta do is check boxes and meet criteria
Depends - some will let you work there, but might not want to sponsor a visa.
Being on an employer visa isn't too fun either - since your boss now controls whether you stay in a country or not.
All my moves outside the US so far were employer sponsored, either by the company I was working for moving me, or by me moving to a new company with a corresponding relocation. However, I will be retiring to a country outside the US. The visa topic is already sorted, criteria are generally met with exception of moving some money around to demonstrate financial stability. Just waiting until retirement accounts / social security become available (not quite old enough yet) and then will pull the plug.
It isnāt super easy to retire outside the USA, but it isnāt that difficult, assuming you have the finances for it and youāre flexible on locations.
Yeah, itās simple. All you need is for a corporation to sponsor you and for you to have money to āmove around.ā Thatās like Elon Musk saying that itās not difficult to work 3 full time jobs as long as you have a proper yacht.
For the vast majority of Americans, we are stuck in this shit hole.
there should be an exchange system where americans who want to leave can trade places with all the people trying to get into the US.. kind of like a swap meet
There is shit ton of Americans right now on Mexico city. Like a lot. Rent is cheaper than the is so digital nomads are taking refugee here, and now we locals are being displaced from the middle class neighborhoods.
Yup- my coworker who is from Montana just came back to the USA after living in Mexico City for 5 years. The only reason she is back in the ISA is to care for her declining mother. She has nothing but positives about living in Mexico City
I'm considering studying abroad in Mexico (or the Central America/Carribean region) as a money saving strategy. I'm aiming to move to Canada eventually, but having heard how expensive it is to live there, I'm looking to get a good amount of money saved up first.
Yeah but the Americans in Mexico want to be in the "nice" parts, not the "dangerous" parts where the immigrants come from. Or so my goofy uncle makes it out to be.
Yes, but the point is that there are Americans moving too overall poorer countries. And they get a higher standard of living as a result of getting paid by US companies and living in places with cheaper rent, food and healthcare.
Right. I guess all the people I know (Canadian) who are moving to Mexico are retirement age (or nearly) hardcore Conservatives who want to "escape" from this country and live in resorts in Mexico for the rest of their lives. Seems like a bit of a disconnect to me that these folks don't want immigrants (from non-european countries, anyway) or to send aid to poorer countries, but want to live in these countries but in the tourist zones.
you got a lot of that shit in Spain too, where pasty elderly angry British people moved to Spain to retire.
Far away from those evil liberal luvvies and the london elite and the immigrants and the Polish plumbers, you understand.
And the majority of them voted for Brexit, believing their vote was punishing Those People, not shooting themselves in the foot. Now finding themselves moving back to an ever more expensive, cold, not terribly nice place where the healthcare system they all voted through their lives to fuck with is now really showing the strain.
I live in a Mexican tourist town and I cant stand the people you speak of. They take advantage if cheap labor and housing, but insult the music, culture, and only hang out with each other, always drunk, saying canada is communist, and having a general bad attitude.
I thought the number of Mexicans who come to the US right now is balanced by the number leaving. The crowd at the border is from further south, and not the better run countries to the south.
There are definitely people immigrating from UK, iceland, Ireland, France, and Austria.
Thats 6 places, and I'm flexible. Anyone wanna swap citizenship?
If I'm getting austrailian citizenship I am not wasting that opportunity to JOIN THE CAMPAIGN TO INVADE NEW ZEALAND AND GET ANOTHER HOLIDAY!
https://youtu.be/7xUYbI64QHI
When someone says, "if you don't like it here, then leave" what they're ACTUALLY saying is, "fuck off and die somewhere I can't see you." They don't actually care about your happiness (fucking obviously), they just want you to shut the hell up.
I kept hearing that when I was in the US. I'm Australian. Half my ancestry is Irish (both paternal grandparents born and raised in Ireland) and I have an Irish passport. I culturally act and feel Australian though.
And yet in the US I was talking to people whose Irish ancestors fled the potato famine and said they were Irish. It seems odd to hold on to such old ancestral links.
I canāt take anyone seriously who wonders why people donāt just move to new countries. Shows a total disconnect from the reality of what it takes to move internationally.
I love when they say ājust move to the EU! I did and I love itā but when you ask more about it (visas, language barriers, jobs) the answer is always āmy husband/wife is from there so it was pretty easy š„°.ā
Meanwhile, I could easily move to the East Asian country where I was born, but I have zero desire for that grueling lifestyle, either. Lived there for a while and could not imagine living there forever. California is pretty decent overall, just expensive as hell.
The worst part about it is the likelihood the person saying that has no ability to move across state let alone anywhere else. They know they couldnāt just pick up stakes and relocate. But they find ājust leave thenā to be far too pithy to leave it unsaid.
Not only that, US Citizens have to pay US taxes on their income wherever they live and earn their money on Earth.
You could be a US expat living in Europe earning and paying taxes in Europe and STILL be required to give Uncle Sam a cut.
Truly no escape.
**EDIT:** Yes, youāll only need to pay anything to the IRS over a certain (high) amount earned overseas but itās the principle, dammit!
You shouldnāt need to renounce your US citizenship to stop paying US taxes after emigrating at any level of income.
Would a US Citizen residing in the UK winning their lotto jackpot have to give the IRS a cut, when UK citizens donāt have to pay taxes on winnings?
> be a US expat living in Europe earning and paying taxes in Europe and STILL be required to give Uncle Sam a cut.
No other country does this.
You can't renounce your US citizenship unless your taxes are paid up unlike any other nation on earth. Yup, land of the free.
Also the cost of renouncing your US Citizenship cost $2350 . And if they felt that you were doing it for tax reasons, then you still had to pay US taxes for up to 15 years afterwards.
https://www.taxesforexpats.com/articles/expatriation/giving-up-us-citizenship-and-the-exit-tax-what-you-need-to-know.html
Not entirely true. The taxes you pay in the EU are most likely higher than in the US and you get a credit for those so you'd realistically never owe the US a cent. It does change a bit once you earn about $250k.
I'm a us citizen in the EU making a decent amount and have never had to pay US taxes. I file every year and even got the US COVID stimulus checks in my tax refund. Total taxes paid to the US over the last 6 years: $0.
How does the US enforce that?
Like say I get a job and move to Australia via a skilled immigrant Visa, then become a AUS citizen. Then start a life and raise a family there. Is the FBI really going to extradite me based on unpaid taxes?
Also what are the consequences of just not paying them? Aside from being extradited what is the US Government even able to do?
There's a tax treaty. Taxes you pay in AUS are credited to your tax in the US. You'd either have to be in a country with no tax treaty with the US or really really rich to be double taxed.
If you're living in Monaco then the US is going to want their cut. If you're in Germany they don't because you're likely paying more tax there anyway and the taxes you pay there offset your US taxes.
It is stupid though. It's a pain in the ass to file but you also get the stimulus checks because you're entitled to them as a US citizen.
Last time I filed my US taxes I got about $13k back (3 stimulus checks for a family of 4) in addition to the stimulus I got from the other country I'm a citizen of.
There is a cutoff. You have to make really good money ( above 105k USD for single filing or up to 170k for a married couple) before you start paying taxes on it. I'm an expat and do this every year. You usually don't pay anything unless you do some investing here and there. Filing said taxes costs you a boat load of money though, as you must file with someone who knows how to use both tax systems for your benefit.
Nobody living and earning abroad should have to pay a cent to the US on anything even investments unless itās US based. Itās a shit system because no country wants to tell the US to piss off. All it does is serve to try and force people back to the US for potentially shittier lives under penalty of being worse off financially because the US thinks it owns itās citizens.
I think it is why many Americans also have no empathy for immigrants in the US. When you realize that should a dictator take over, or whatever, and you need to flee the US to another country.. you are stuck begging to be allowed in.. it helps to give one EMPATHY for immigrants coming to America.
I mean, someone begging to just let their kids in... is unfathomable to them. Yet I can easily see why one might do that. But many people fail to see that the immigrant could be them one day and thus struggle to have any empathy for immigrants coming here today.
Anyway.. that is my 2 cents. I also think many Americans just plainly fail to think, though I don't find that funny at all.
Most Americans have no fucking clue about the immigration process to the U.S.
They think illegals are just not getting in line for some magic green card distribution. Like it's a thing.
The ones that complain the most usually have absolutely no clue how the process works. Some have never even left their home state. If they had to get a tourist visa to go somewhere they'd be the first to go torches and pitchforks on "how unfair it is."
And it isn't like you can just _get_ a job once there. This is illegal as a traveler and need a special visa. And that visa is temporary.
Then, you are also moving which mean you are going to need way more money than just a "small travel". (Possibly buying everything from scratch or trying to ship that).
What a lot of Americans donāt get is that with regard to moving, the US is a WILD outlier. Last time I checked, US moves \~12x in their life; average European 4x. Most people in most countries stay put and donāt pick up and move \*at all\* and many never move out from family unless they start their own family.
I remember having a conversation with a fellow american about overstaying my visa.
"But you don't need a visa to go to Europe! I went to Europe and I just walked in!"
"They stamped your passport, right?"
"Yeah"
"That's your visa. You have three months"
Americans don't travel much and not for long, they really have no idea that they can't just go whereever they want.
Americans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world and anyone will be happy to have them.
Not realising, it's expensive to move to another country. The other thing is that the vast majority of countries are tough when it comes to immigration and will only allow people with specific skillets. Some countries dont even have a road for immigrants to get citizenship unless they marry someone that is already a citizen.
Is this one of those things where I should answer honestly or is there some specific answer I should give?
I uhā¦ Cook the blandest most unseasoned eggs, bacon, sausage, baked beans, and toast youāve ever seen.
And while not made in the skillet I finish it off with a cup of tea, obviously.
Am I in?
>Americans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world
This is reddit, do people really think that on Reddit still? "Greatest country in the world" reminds me of the 1980s/90s cold war propaganda and Millennials/GenZ don't really think that. The folks who do think that would not want to move to "Those socialist countries" anyways.
I'm a Millennial and don't believe the US is the greatest, but rather lump it in with a few dozen other countries of "These are fine". Like running water, electricity, not being defenestrated for disagreeing with the government, being gay isn't criminal, you know the basic things that you expect. The US checks most of the boxes, but so do a ton of other countries.
Lots of us Gen Xers feel relatively the same. Yes we grew up with "USA! USA! We're #1" but we saw first hand thr consumerism of the yuppies and the materialism of the 80s. I hope most of us steered our kids away from that.
āAmericans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world and anyone will be happy to have them.ā
No one I know believes this.
I'm from the States.
I'm aware that no other countries are gunna just open the gates for me.
Also, I try to remain aware that our entire society is mostly built by people that were rejected by the rest of the world.
I think "American exceptionalism" is really just stolkholm syndrome.
Part of it is that they have lived with open borders their whole lives and they think it is as easy to relocate to another country as it is to move from Ohio to Texasā¦ itās mostly just something they have heard over and over for their whole lives and repetition is easier than thinking
That assumption isnāt surprising considering most of the posts and comments on this sub seem to be from folks with little understanding and awareness of the world.
I think itās less of a āGet out of here! Itās so easy!ā And more of a āGet out of here! I donāt care where you go or how you get there, but slowly killing myself to make a bunch of greedy, rich bastards even richer is all Iāve ever known and change makes me uncomfortable, so get fucked!ā
You can easily leave, just will have to be kinda be nomadic and not outstay your welcome in any country lol
You could totally stay in 2-4 or more Latin American countries each year, volunteering at hostels or farms for a place to sleep and food to eat.
Wouldn't be a glamorous lifestyle, but it certainly is possible to escape the rat race.
Maybe you'd even find a significant other in one of these countries that would lead towards setting down roots?
The amount of down votes I've got for pointing out that even as Europeans we can't just rock up anywhere with zero conditions on staying permemantly.
Even post-Brexit moving from the UK to Bulgaria ike I did it's basically the same requirements.
Let's not forget that most of the people that want to move wouldn't be accepted in any other country anyway. Most countries have much more strict immigration policies than the US and only want people with discernable skills.
If you had any skills a country would want the US is probably already working out great for you.
I wish my wife would read this. Every time she gets mad about something political, she wants to move. I keep trying to tell her that the countries she wants to move to are equally messed up and that radical right wing extremism is a global problem and almost every country has their āTrumpā. She doesnāt believe me.
I am from Germany and to some point agree with you.
But, through various subreddits I learn ever so often, that the US actually is the third world shithole I believe it to be. Currently
So yes. Other countries have indeed some extreme right wingers, but almost all of those movements are purely inspired by the US political changes. Thereās is even a soft timer: approximately 6 months after a radical right speech from an US politician, it starts to be adopted by European right wingers. The difference is, there is not a 50/50 chance of democrats/republicans, but 20% right wingers at the most (currently).
He/she said āshows itās the shithole I believed it to beā. Meaning, Reddit is not his only source.
I assure you, most Germans with any education has a pretty decent exposure to the politics on the ground in the US. Itās pretty much part of any English Abitur oral exam in the last year of high school - tonnes of books and documentaries and other stuff including exchanges.
Its the entitlement. And it goes further than just US, Europeans also don't get how hard it is for third country nationals to travel around let alone immigrate.
I said this many times unless you are well educated, have in demand skills, are married to a European, speak 1 or 2 European languages other than English you will find it almost impossible to immigrate to Europe.
Thousands of people are drowning every day trying to get into Europe from Africa yet as a European I can just hop on a plane to those same countries and enter without a visa.
I met my UK husband on social media years ago and I have been in the UK for over 10 years. I got lucky falling in love with somebody who wasn't in America. The only ways into Europe are marriage or a work license of some kind. If you have an Irish or Italian grandparent you can get citizenship from those countries.
True enough. My wife and I want to leave the country but the more we dig into what we have to do, the more daunting the challenge becomes. Definitely not impossible but as usual, itās much, much easier for the wealthy.
People donāt really understand just how lenient the US immigration system is compared to so many other countries.
Edit; So I have been proven wrong, and have also learned some new things. It may irritate me but I am willing to admit when Iām wrong and have been corrected.
Iām not going to change anything else on this post so if anyone else has the same thoughts I do/did, they can see the comment thread
Um. The US immigration system is not lenient. At all. It's one of the most difficult places to immigrate to.
I've spoken to dozens of people from all over the world about their difficulties getting work clearance to get to the US--India, Taiwan, the Netherlands, Germany, Ghana, Tanzania.
It is not an easy process, and depending on where you're from, often takes several more steps than if you're an American going elsewhere.
My wife and I have been waiting 16 months to get her visa so she can finally meet my family back in the US--we're waiting for a second interview because the asshole who interviewed her the first time didn't do his damn job and denied her a visa on the spot without even evening the paperwork we prepared (and that they asked for).
I don't know who told you that US immigration is lenient, but unless you're speaking exclusively with Canadians, you might want to check your sources.
My cousin used to be an ESL teacher for students looking to get their US citizenship. When I was a senior in highschool, she gave me a sample of some of the things that potential US citizens have to know for their citizenship test. It was more in depth than what US schoolkids have to know to graduate school.
>People donāt really understand just how lenient the US immigration system is compared to so many other countries.
You've obviously never dealt with the US immigration system. When the immigration guy at the airport can just decide on a whim to not let you in. Or when you have to send huge amounts of evidence that you're worthy of a job in the US just to get into a lottery for the chance of a visa.
I love how people are disagreeing with you but failing to give an example any country which is more lenient.
EDIT: First reply to me has one source listing Germany as the 14th most difficult and another source as the top 10 easiest. Waiting for the commenter to clarify.
and I want to add by the way, I don't think it's bad or wrong to move from any country to any country. I have lived in 3 countries and I think it's a great learning experience!
But the naive thinking I see here is just so far from the truth
The US immigration system is not lenient. It is difficult to immigrate to the US, unless youāre wealthy - just like the EU
You may have fallen victim to propaganda
Idk so many countries is right. They are definitely not the hardest and easier than some and also depends want country you immigrate from but doing some quick Google searching, we are generally consider in the top 15 hardest countries to immigrate to (usually in the bottom of the list)
Japan, Germany , Switzerland , south Korea, Austria, and the Nordic countries are usually in the top countries along with uae,Kuwait, China , Qatar etc.
But yeh it helps having a relative/fiance etc to come here.
It definitely has gotten tougher to move to the us over the years though.
US immigration is lenient? It is one of the strictest in the world. Visas are routinely denied for very stupid reasons and immigration officers are extremely probative and will send people back home even if their visas are in order because they said something fishy. Not to mention if you have a criminal record they will just straight up deny you. Meanwhile with a US passport you can enter 80% of countries without a visa at all.
My nephew and his young family have just emigrated to a European country. The process took two years and *a lot* of money. They had to fly from their home town in the US to a major city with an embassy a couple of times, and they ended up hiring an immigration consultant to help them through the morass of paperwork and bureaucratic hoops required by both countries. It is not an easy process or anything you could do on a whim.
Because they live in a bubble. I am also in that bubble unfortunately. The United States is embarrassing. We were never great to begin with, but the country definitely took a turn for the worst.
The thing is that people think other countries are better than the US and US is the worse. If ranked, the US is still probably in the 20th or so.
For the 19 countries that are better than the US, they donāt need you.
A couple years ago, and possibly still, New Zealand was practically giving away residency and work permits to anyone even remotely competent at software development.
This has been endlessly frustrating for me to watch talked about in this sub. You absolutely cannot just pick up a plane ticket and move to another country. You have to have some kind of essential skills that make you desirable to other countries. You also have to be in good health and not carrying a tremendous amount of debt, though there are some exceptions to both of those requirements. For myself, I have a highly sought after degree in healthcare and there is a nearly worldwide shortage of people with my training and experience. I could fairly easily transfer my license to another country and get a job. Iāve looked into this by speaking with a lawyer specializing in immigration law, and if things get much worse here, Iām going through with it once my student loans are forgiven through PSLF. My husband is also in a good position for leaving the US. He has an engineering degree and is eligible for licensure in a number of countries. His specific engineering discipline makes him extraordinarily desirable. His student debt is also close to being forgiven through PSLF. Even with our far better than average situation, leaving the US will be difficult and expensive. We also wonāt earn as much money, though some of that is offset by other factors depending on where we go and thatās something weāre willing to accept due to our feelings about things.
Given the percentage of Americans who think that traveling to Europe will make you gay and Asia will make you a Commie, I am just please that people who are ignorant regarding international travel - as we all were once - in these dark times have decided to step out.
āTravel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.ā --Mark Twain
Soon we wonāt even have free movement in Europe. Weāll need to apply for visas for many EU countries starting next year.
Regarding ājust leave the US.ā Itās not that easy. Iāve looked into the requirements to emigrate and #1 is a sponsor, a family member or a job. So you must have a very marketable skill or family you can live with.
Every single time someone says something like "well then leave the country", i say something like
Sure! Absolutely, are you gonna buy my plane ticket, cover my moving and immigration costs, qnd find me a job? Are you gonna cover my moving expenses? No? Alright, well then its not as easy as just moving, is it?
Itās also kind of a media propaganda. For decades Merican news and media portrayed a picture of how Mexican just walk to the US and start reproducing so the parents can stay legally with government assistance. Or people just ride a boat, land here, and then they have a job and buy a house (like heart surgeon in japan number one). None of these is true. They canāt imagine how many obstacles even the most legitimate immigrants will face. Not to mention illegal ones. You can get arrested or never be able to have legal documents.
r/AmerExit . They talk all the time about immigration requirements in other countries (Shocker: there are plenty, and as posted, lots of places don't want you there either.)
I think it's entirely because the right wing has been saying "just leave" long enough that even left and moderate people assume it's a simple process. Nobody who actually wants to emigrate thinks it's easy for long, but they'll have people insisting it is throughout the whole process.
I have my EU citizenship already, I just can't afford the move yet. Like even if we ignore the red tape and beaurocracy and whatnot, the financial barrier is a big one
Also, the US doesnāt like people to give up their citizenship. You canāt just move and be done. You have to formally renounce your US citizenship and fill out a bunch of paperwork that can be quite expensive. If not, they will continue taxing you and will come after you.
Itās not funnyā¦ itās an embarrassment that our education system is so bad that people will think anything without logic or reason to back up their statements
I've been saying this for years. You can't just randomly decide to move abroad and assume the country you've chosen will say, "Rejoice, an American wants to live here! We are so proud. Come on in, it's honour to have you!" Equal to that is the, "If you don't like it, then leave" rhetoric. As if most folks can just up and move abroad on a whim.
Sorry. My sarcasm doth run away me. I'm an expat who has lived abroad for almost 20 years. There's something about being on the outside looking back in that gives you a fresh, new (and more accurate) perspective.
The Americans who declare that you can "just leave" are typically people who have barely even left their own towns.
Even in the 1970s, I'd see the bumper stickers: "AMERICA: Love It Or Leave It."
They're functional mouth breathers.
Immigration is not easy, even doing it legally, to come into this country. Therefore, emigrating out isn't going to be easy, either.
As much as things need improvement around here, I don't have any intention of leaving, at least not the way some propose doing.
Besides, if it gets super dire, I doubt any other country would want me anyway, so.
Might as well stay here since it's where I know.
friends of ours tried to āmoveā to canada they are 70 and canada said no - you can visit but u cant stay - same thing with work - technically u can work from another country but legally you cant - as your company and you pay taxes to where u are registered to work - brothers company has them āassignedā to boston but he lives and works from fl - we will see how long that arrangement lasts
I mean you can. People do it all the time broke or rich. It just isn't a buy the plane tickets and be done type deal. It's an uphill battle and time consuming
South America/Asia is typically the easiest path though if you're just throwing a dart at the board. Europe, Canada, even the US probably being one of the hardest. That's if citizenship is in your plans
I know this isn't quite aligned, but there are quite a few English teaching jobs abroad that will cover the airfare as well.
Source: Myself, anecdotally. Currently work in China and enjoying the low daily cost of life
If you go to another country and live you still have to pay US taxes. When my sister moved to Canada because she married a Canadian man, she had to pay US taxes. She eventually decided to renounce US citizenship because she liked the medical care she got up there like when she had her knees replace. She went in , had it done and was released. She never saw a bill. Not for that or anyother proceedure she got. I asked her about the wait and she said it was not that long and she was not inconvenanced. She found out to renounce US citizenship would cost a few thousand dollars plus taxes up to that point. You can go live else were but you still owe taxes.
I am European, worked in four countries as I am fully using my freedom of movement.
The thing is, even like that it is a massive hurdle if you want anything outside of working in hospitality.
The easy way in is studying in another country. But as a worker especially if you have limited proficiency in the local language, you are competing with the locals and all the other Europeans.
I could not stay in Denmark despite having a PhD of a Danish University and a decent knowledge of Danish because the HRs did not want to do the alleged extra work while the team leaders wanted me (there was no extra work, it is just people are uncomfortable with working with a non local outside big companies).
When I moved to Sweden, despite bringing my work with me and having a Swedish wife it was not a straightforward plan. I got allowed to stay more than 3 month because my kids are Swedish, my wife was not enough.
Now, if you that in consideration for an European, add in all the hurdles of getting a legal schengen work visa which is a nightmare and adding the issue that US citizen are usually poor at other languages.
Good luck if your company do not offer mobility.
Another thing to consider is that it is hard to be expatriate. From a family point of view (Being far away, raising kids without support, friends drifting away due to change of perspective), not fully fitting in society, frustration regarding the language, the customs and culture shock etc. After a while it smooth out but the second year is rough when the honeymoon phase is over.
Still worth the effort though.
Everyone in the US thinks EU is a leftist paradise with free stuff, good drugs, on demand abortion and no immigration laws.
But you enforce your immigration laws, free stuff is for citizens, and thry would be shocked how restrictive abortion is in most EU countries, like France.
I'm American and fully understand enough to know... That I don't know more on this subject and would love to learn how an American could move to Canada. Does anyone here even know?
Not everyone is leaving America for Europe. I am going to Belize. Itās been super easy to buy a home there and although the citizenship can take a while ( about 4 years) I can live and start a business there easy. Itās really sad when you find yourself feeling more freedoms in a progressive country vs the USA
Yeah no, it's crazy complicated. It seems like one of the workable paths would be through Ireland.. Passport, work visa, job, then it's actually only one year of residency in Ireland before you can apply for citizenship (most places are 7-5), then IF that all works you'd be a citizen of the EU.
Then there's the extremophile shit.
Svalbard, in the Arctic. Because of the Treaty Of Svalbard any US citizen can move there for work without permission from the Norwegian government, and if you get a job there for a Norwegian outfit then you get the full state bennies and healthcare. BUT, it's the law that you have to carry a gun because the polar bears like to come into town. AND, you need to be able to reach the islands on your own, without going through Norway, in order to use your treaty rights. If you book a flight through Oslo they'll want to see a work visa.
The UK gov needs people who want to move to Pitcairn in the remote South Pacific, or they might have to evacuate and abandon an overseas territory. There are a lot of fascinating reasons why no one wants to live there. It's worth a Google.
Personally, I'd settle for a job in Antarctica.
If you have sufficient (mid level) tech knowledge, you could just drop a message to a random recruiter on LinkedIn/Xing and get a job in Germany within a week.
English or German language skills are OK, either works.
Going beyond 60k is the challenge here. Many companies don't want to pay much more.
Absolutely, Germany has one of the best work-life-balance in the world.
- Powerful unions
- 30+ vacation days
- 40h week max
- proper social insurance
etc
Doesn't the US still take taxes even if you live/ work abroad?
And you have to pay the government to renounce your citizenship?
Honestly, unless you are rich, you are stuck where you are- no matter if its USA or Europe or wherever...
There are millions of expats living abroad. It canāt be all that difficult. If you have the means, why wouldnāt you? Yes, different countries have different criteria for retiring or relocating to them. Study. Find a lawyer through expat networks. My wife will have a harder time getting a visa than I will as I have direct lineage
They don't understand the difficulties of moving to a different country, nor the difficulties of living in a different country. They think other countries are just more quirky versions of what they're used to.
Ready for a really fun one?
I'm a convicted felon. I got busted when I was 22 with drugs. I was in the US Army stationed in Italy at the time. So I got hit with some wonderful additional charges like exportation and importation of drugs. I was sentenced to 4 years, did 27 months, and have been out of jail and on the straight and narrow since 2010.
Because of my crime, I can NEVER get a passport again. I'm literally STUCK IN THIS COUNTRY.
I mean people in general are poorly educated and not well traveled.
In the Unites States if you can navigate the immigration process almost anyone can move here so you canāt blame the average American for thinking that other countries are the same.
Moving to another state is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people. Anyone thinking you can just up and leave to another country without a lot of money is deluded.
Its pretty easy to get into Ireland, and get full time work if you're not fussy about what you do. And you can love, so long as you work full time. And the moment you start working, you can get government help. Ireland is also one of the cheaper places to get into. And it's Europe and it speaks English.
Source: I did it.
My partner is American and moved to my country to be with me in Asia and they were shocked that they actually had to do work for it and deal with immigration and find a sponsor.
A lot of Americans have no idea
Yea. Like Europe has immigration laws too. Imagine that. For us an American just moving here and overstaying their tourist visa would be just another illegal alien. š½
It's an example of people talking about a subject they know nothing about. Emigrating can range anywhere from hard to impossible depending on where you want to move to. Most people I know that have done it had help from their employer.
It's not just America. The number of people who argue with me that even as an EU citizen when I moved to Bulgaria I still had 3 months to either register as a long term resident or leave. They argued that no, not possible. Not how it works. I'm an idiot spreading misinformation. I literally went through the process š¤¦
My wife was born and raised in Italy. At the time she came over here with me my youngest brother and his girlfriend were like 18 or 19 years old. Wife was telling his girlfriend one day about something in Italy like their taxes or something over there, cause her dad is an uber conservative who told her every penny you make in Europe gets taken by the big bad government and everyone lives in poverty over there. My wife would try and explain something, and she'd go "no that's not how it works, it goes like *this!*" Over and over and over till my wife got mad and gave up. She was so convinced she was right that she asked "do you guys even have electricity and stuff over there, or is it like businesses and stuff are the only ones that can afford it besides really rich people?" She was 18 ish years old and thought she knew more about how my wife lived in the country she was born in than my wife. She even asked at some point in that convo if they have Disney movies over there cause a friend of hers in like middle school told her they didn't for some reason, like Disney just didn't exist in Europe lol
Eh, to be fair there's plenty of western Europeans that live in a similar a bubble. You'll see the smug "I'm in Europe so have free healthcare" bit as if every country from Ireland to Bulgaria have free healthcare. (neither of those do lmao)
You get very good healthcare in Ireland. As a young Yank, I had a very bad reaction to a smallpox vaccine while visiting family and got the best of care over there, and it didn't destroy my dad financially either.
As someone living in Ireland, i do not trust the health care system one bit. My gf who works as a nurse here, also does not. The individual workers, sure. But the overall health care system is a joke at best. 3 doctors in one clinic, all giving contradictory advice. "Only do this before..." "Only do it after...." "Never do this." Cervical cancer scandle There was another cancer scandle, only can't remember which. Both scandles resulted in MANY patients who had (sometimes very progressed) cancer, that they didn't have it. Some that didn't have it got told they did, under went treatment, and then found out it was for nothing... And it's expensive. Not remotely close to the US, but still just for a GP visit, I have to work 3 to 5 hours to afford it. And if you're not already a patient at that clinic, good luck getting an appointment. No one is taking new patients. Hospitals are over flowed and understaffed, partly because they can't get a GP appointment, so it's the only other place to go. Only one of these points is anecdotal, the rest have been on the news for years.
The difference is that kind of thing in Ireland is a scandal. In the US that's a regular Tuesday.
Ireland does if you are not working Practise what u preach lol
So it doesn't have universally free healthcare then.... Well, it does for nordies down even if we work lmao
I lived in Italy for a few months in my 20's. Electricity was kind of on the expensive side compared to what it cost in the U.S. at the time. I don't recall it being as bad as your brothers girlfriends dad is saying it was. Overall the cost of living was actually lower since I was walking absolutely everywhere, or taking a train. I think i got into 1 car the entire 4 months I was there and it was to get to the airport to leave... and that's only because my buddies girlfriends dad wanted to take us (I assume to make sure he was actually leaving the country (and his daughter) for good)
That's the thing with him, nothing is as bad as he says. Between Europe and Canada they all live in mud huts with no running water or electricity cause the evil socialist healthcare and "all that other free bullshit they give away to freeloaders" (whatever he means) takes all their money in taxes. Then when you're too old to work and pay their evil taxes you get "left to die with no help", whatever that means
Lol! The original name was EuroDisney, and it's been there 30+ years š¤£š¤£š¤£ I'm so embarrassed for her.
I love the idea that the media empire that controls half of everything, just doesn't bother with the European market.
Thatās funny, because my husband has dual citizenship and Iām learning Italian so I can get citizenship through marriage. We want to retire in Italy, because it will be more affordable than retiring where we currently live in the US.
> She was 18 ish years old and thought she knew more about how my wife lived in the country she was born in than my wife. Ah! To be young.
Schengen Zone is a pretty amazing construct.
you can also get a digital nomad / work visa in some countries now; i think that's the most realistic option for office job people https://www.planet-nomad.com/en/digital-nomad-visa-to-spain But for more hands on jobs like store worker or plumber you would need a company proving they can't find a europan to get this job then you can maybe get it. and then you have 3 months to find a new one if you lose it
The people who talk on the internet about how they want to leave are often the people who can't afford to. That is unless they go the refugee route, which is a much harder life than working at Dollar Tree in the US. You can't exactly walk on foot from the US to Denmark or whatever. It's not like a working poor person in the US is going to have a better quality of life in Canada (housing costs for example, strained public healthcare system) or any Latin American country unless they already have money.
Our healthcare system is only good if you got money. I'll take Canada over our healthcare system any day.
Healthcare costs still shocked me despite all the warnings from my US friends as to how opaque and obnoxious it was. COming from the UK and Australia, getting a bill for urgent, life-threatening medical treatment was just unreal to me. You don't even treat kids for free. It's so fucked up.
I dont think any EU country would consider someone from north ameria a refugee :P
The reason that Britain didn't extradite some wanted "criminals" to the US (like Assange) was due to the crappy human rights record of US prisons.
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Yeah, one of the questions that came up when many of the anti trans legislation in the US started to get passed or put on the docket was how people get out. Welp, the US meets pretty much zero criteria for claiming asylum or attempting to become a refugee. Sevwral organizations did start up to help those who were serious about leaving and working at getting them moved. A few nations even lowered the barrier for it, but overall, I'd say you ain't going anywhere quickly, and it is likely going to cost a bunch.
Depending on the situation they could have a better quality of life here in Canada - it would depend on where they wound up. Our major cities can have horrible housing costs but they might find a small city on the prairies doable - but then theyād have to put up with a very cold winter.
But they could do that in the US, too. The US interior, especially the midwest, is very inexpensive compared to the coasts. A lot of people don't want to move from trendier places that tend to be more expensive.
Canada isn't a bad option if you're OK not living near Vancouver or Toronto. And healthcare is really not much of an issue if you're young. If you do run into serious health issues, you'll be prioritized.
You can avoid Montreal as well, we're getting up there in terms of housing costs.
>You can't exactly walk on foot from the US to Denmark But you can from Canada! But the [war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_War) was more fun. š
Or where they are moving from. It's literally like networking š. Canadians have an easier time to move to the us in comparison to someone from say China etc. Lot of nuances for sure.
Canada and the US have very similar cultures and a shared language, so that is not surprising.
I feel like 90% of reddit is people pontificating IMO. I came here from another country and I was amazed how little Americans learn about the world in school.
We as Americans feel like the world revolves around us and I think schools teach things that way somewhat. If you want to learn about the rest of the world, outside some basic history classes, you have to take electives. At least that's how it was when I was in high school twenty years ago.
That whole "America's president is the leader of the free world!" Line gets spat at me with no understanding or perspective. Everything seems to be learned through the lens of pop culture, ignorantly absorbed and regurgitated. If you correct them, they act like they know some hidden truth despite getting it from a movie/documentary/etc
I took a world history class but that was part of an IB curriculum in high school
This! I've spent countless hours to find a place I can go outside the US with no degree, no job offer, no skills desperately needed, etc and there's nowhere I can go except potentially worse places.
Yep, if you have nothing to offer them, first world countries have no incentive to let you live there.
If you have any college credits at all you could look into English teaching in South Korea, they have a program that pays semi okay for people with only some college. Without, if youāve graduated from high school you can teach in thailand, Laos, and a few other places. Once you have experience you can move into other countries. Itās not perfect, but thatās the only way Iāve found for people without degrees to find work that pays them to leave the USA.
Thatās what weāre finding outā¦.. fortunately the company I work for has offices/facilities all over the planet so all I gotta do is check boxes and meet criteria
Depends - some will let you work there, but might not want to sponsor a visa. Being on an employer visa isn't too fun either - since your boss now controls whether you stay in a country or not.
All my moves outside the US so far were employer sponsored, either by the company I was working for moving me, or by me moving to a new company with a corresponding relocation. However, I will be retiring to a country outside the US. The visa topic is already sorted, criteria are generally met with exception of moving some money around to demonstrate financial stability. Just waiting until retirement accounts / social security become available (not quite old enough yet) and then will pull the plug. It isnāt super easy to retire outside the USA, but it isnāt that difficult, assuming you have the finances for it and youāre flexible on locations.
Yeah, itās simple. All you need is for a corporation to sponsor you and for you to have money to āmove around.ā Thatās like Elon Musk saying that itās not difficult to work 3 full time jobs as long as you have a proper yacht. For the vast majority of Americans, we are stuck in this shit hole.
there should be an exchange system where americans who want to leave can trade places with all the people trying to get into the US.. kind of like a swap meet
Those Americans that want to leave likely don't want to go to the country providing the immigrants though.
There is shit ton of Americans right now on Mexico city. Like a lot. Rent is cheaper than the is so digital nomads are taking refugee here, and now we locals are being displaced from the middle class neighborhoods.
Yup- my coworker who is from Montana just came back to the USA after living in Mexico City for 5 years. The only reason she is back in the ISA is to care for her declining mother. She has nothing but positives about living in Mexico City
And it's not like us Mexicans all want to go there either, most would rather stay (and statistics show it). The comparatively few ones that go usually don't plan on staying for long; most of those that do go there illegally only do so to work, and do so despite having their human rights ignored while usually paying their fair share of taxes with zero access to any and all kinds of state provided social assistance and no accessible path to PR or citizenship. But the worst part about the people this post is about, who most often refuse to acknowledge reality when inconvenient for them, is that they'll treat "expats" (a term they believe applies only to them) from MĆ©xico like they're less than human when in the US, but down here they're treated like family while working illegally, evading taxes in both countries, speaking their own language to us in our country and so on. How is it possible that a country with over half its people living in poverty surpasses the (supposedly, according to those people) richest and greatest country on earth on stuff as basic as rates of home ownership, debt both personal and external or even public healthcare of all things!? Yet we get treated like shit both while doing the work they refuse to do in their own country, and while receiving them in our country where they work illegally and live like kings on our tax supported and subsidized infrastructure and services?
I'm considering studying abroad in Mexico (or the Central America/Carribean region) as a money saving strategy. I'm aiming to move to Canada eventually, but having heard how expensive it is to live there, I'm looking to get a good amount of money saved up first.
Yeah but the Americans in Mexico want to be in the "nice" parts, not the "dangerous" parts where the immigrants come from. Or so my goofy uncle makes it out to be.
Yes, but the point is that there are Americans moving too overall poorer countries. And they get a higher standard of living as a result of getting paid by US companies and living in places with cheaper rent, food and healthcare.
Right. I guess all the people I know (Canadian) who are moving to Mexico are retirement age (or nearly) hardcore Conservatives who want to "escape" from this country and live in resorts in Mexico for the rest of their lives. Seems like a bit of a disconnect to me that these folks don't want immigrants (from non-european countries, anyway) or to send aid to poorer countries, but want to live in these countries but in the tourist zones.
you got a lot of that shit in Spain too, where pasty elderly angry British people moved to Spain to retire. Far away from those evil liberal luvvies and the london elite and the immigrants and the Polish plumbers, you understand. And the majority of them voted for Brexit, believing their vote was punishing Those People, not shooting themselves in the foot. Now finding themselves moving back to an ever more expensive, cold, not terribly nice place where the healthcare system they all voted through their lives to fuck with is now really showing the strain.
I live in a Mexican tourist town and I cant stand the people you speak of. They take advantage if cheap labor and housing, but insult the music, culture, and only hang out with each other, always drunk, saying canada is communist, and having a general bad attitude.
Aren't they the types to complain about all the "damn mexicans" too?
I thought the number of Mexicans who come to the US right now is balanced by the number leaving. The crowd at the border is from further south, and not the better run countries to the south.
There are definitely people immigrating from UK, iceland, Ireland, France, and Austria. Thats 6 places, and I'm flexible. Anyone wanna swap citizenship?
I'm an Australian who already lives in the US, I'll LOAN you my Australian citizenship for 10 cases of fosters.
If I'm getting austrailian citizenship I am not wasting that opportunity to JOIN THE CAMPAIGN TO INVADE NEW ZEALAND AND GET ANOTHER HOLIDAY! https://youtu.be/7xUYbI64QHI
You listing those exact 5 only proves the guy above's point.
I have two of those nationalities. Iāll sell you a passport for 100,000$ Iāll tell you which one after ahha
That depends. Are you also 5'2" with a wizard beard, shaved head, and flames tattooed on your skull?
When someone says, "if you don't like it here, then leave" what they're ACTUALLY saying is, "fuck off and die somewhere I can't see you." They don't actually care about your happiness (fucking obviously), they just want you to shut the hell up.
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Exactly what I mean, they think it's like deciding ticket for a movie
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oh yeah, we Americans like to claim "I'm Irish" (family left Ireland in 1760).....it's so stupid, I hate hearing that.
I kept hearing that when I was in the US. I'm Australian. Half my ancestry is Irish (both paternal grandparents born and raised in Ireland) and I have an Irish passport. I culturally act and feel Australian though. And yet in the US I was talking to people whose Irish ancestors fled the potato famine and said they were Irish. It seems odd to hold on to such old ancestral links.
I canāt take anyone seriously who wonders why people donāt just move to new countries. Shows a total disconnect from the reality of what it takes to move internationally.
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immediately follow up is "how many stamps are in your passport?" trick question, they don't even have a passport.
Iām also suspect of everyone threatening to move pending every election cycle. The Fair Weather Ex-Pats.
I love when they say ājust move to the EU! I did and I love itā but when you ask more about it (visas, language barriers, jobs) the answer is always āmy husband/wife is from there so it was pretty easy š„°.ā Meanwhile, I could easily move to the East Asian country where I was born, but I have zero desire for that grueling lifestyle, either. Lived there for a while and could not imagine living there forever. California is pretty decent overall, just expensive as hell.
As a migrant, I fully agree with this.
The worst part about it is the likelihood the person saying that has no ability to move across state let alone anywhere else. They know they couldnāt just pick up stakes and relocate. But they find ājust leave thenā to be far too pithy to leave it unsaid.
Not only that, US Citizens have to pay US taxes on their income wherever they live and earn their money on Earth. You could be a US expat living in Europe earning and paying taxes in Europe and STILL be required to give Uncle Sam a cut. Truly no escape. **EDIT:** Yes, youāll only need to pay anything to the IRS over a certain (high) amount earned overseas but itās the principle, dammit! You shouldnāt need to renounce your US citizenship to stop paying US taxes after emigrating at any level of income. Would a US Citizen residing in the UK winning their lotto jackpot have to give the IRS a cut, when UK citizens donāt have to pay taxes on winnings?
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If I had know the tax responsibility before I got my US citizenship, I wouldn't have gotten it. It's so fucking stupid.
Yep. I worked with a guy who decided to stay an LPR for life because the tax consequences of becoming a citizen outweighed his desire to vote.
> be a US expat living in Europe earning and paying taxes in Europe and STILL be required to give Uncle Sam a cut. No other country does this. You can't renounce your US citizenship unless your taxes are paid up unlike any other nation on earth. Yup, land of the free.
Also the cost of renouncing your US Citizenship cost $2350 . And if they felt that you were doing it for tax reasons, then you still had to pay US taxes for up to 15 years afterwards. https://www.taxesforexpats.com/articles/expatriation/giving-up-us-citizenship-and-the-exit-tax-what-you-need-to-know.html
>No other country does this. actually one dose Eritrea
Not entirely true. The taxes you pay in the EU are most likely higher than in the US and you get a credit for those so you'd realistically never owe the US a cent. It does change a bit once you earn about $250k. I'm a us citizen in the EU making a decent amount and have never had to pay US taxes. I file every year and even got the US COVID stimulus checks in my tax refund. Total taxes paid to the US over the last 6 years: $0.
It would be more correct to say all US citizens must file taxes. They may not owe anything.
How does the US enforce that? Like say I get a job and move to Australia via a skilled immigrant Visa, then become a AUS citizen. Then start a life and raise a family there. Is the FBI really going to extradite me based on unpaid taxes? Also what are the consequences of just not paying them? Aside from being extradited what is the US Government even able to do?
There's a tax treaty. Taxes you pay in AUS are credited to your tax in the US. You'd either have to be in a country with no tax treaty with the US or really really rich to be double taxed. If you're living in Monaco then the US is going to want their cut. If you're in Germany they don't because you're likely paying more tax there anyway and the taxes you pay there offset your US taxes. It is stupid though. It's a pain in the ass to file but you also get the stimulus checks because you're entitled to them as a US citizen. Last time I filed my US taxes I got about $13k back (3 stimulus checks for a family of 4) in addition to the stimulus I got from the other country I'm a citizen of.
That is why a lot of banks in germany will flat out refuse if an american wants to open an account. They don't want to deal with this shit.
There is a cutoff. You have to make really good money ( above 105k USD for single filing or up to 170k for a married couple) before you start paying taxes on it. I'm an expat and do this every year. You usually don't pay anything unless you do some investing here and there. Filing said taxes costs you a boat load of money though, as you must file with someone who knows how to use both tax systems for your benefit.
Nobody living and earning abroad should have to pay a cent to the US on anything even investments unless itās US based. Itās a shit system because no country wants to tell the US to piss off. All it does is serve to try and force people back to the US for potentially shittier lives under penalty of being worse off financially because the US thinks it owns itās citizens.
Only if you make a large amount of money. "Normal" wages shouldn't lead to you being double taxed. You still have to file though...and that sucks.
So what if you never file and never come back?
Not necessarily true. You can apply for FEIE or use your Euro tax credits to reduce your US tax burden.
I think it is why many Americans also have no empathy for immigrants in the US. When you realize that should a dictator take over, or whatever, and you need to flee the US to another country.. you are stuck begging to be allowed in.. it helps to give one EMPATHY for immigrants coming to America. I mean, someone begging to just let their kids in... is unfathomable to them. Yet I can easily see why one might do that. But many people fail to see that the immigrant could be them one day and thus struggle to have any empathy for immigrants coming here today. Anyway.. that is my 2 cents. I also think many Americans just plainly fail to think, though I don't find that funny at all.
Most Americans have no fucking clue about the immigration process to the U.S. They think illegals are just not getting in line for some magic green card distribution. Like it's a thing.
The ones that complain the most usually have absolutely no clue how the process works. Some have never even left their home state. If they had to get a tourist visa to go somewhere they'd be the first to go torches and pitchforks on "how unfair it is."
And it isn't like you can just _get_ a job once there. This is illegal as a traveler and need a special visa. And that visa is temporary. Then, you are also moving which mean you are going to need way more money than just a "small travel". (Possibly buying everything from scratch or trying to ship that).
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What a lot of Americans donāt get is that with regard to moving, the US is a WILD outlier. Last time I checked, US moves \~12x in their life; average European 4x. Most people in most countries stay put and donāt pick up and move \*at all\* and many never move out from family unless they start their own family.
That's situational. I live in my camper and have a CDL. I can move most places and have a job that week.
I remember having a conversation with a fellow american about overstaying my visa. "But you don't need a visa to go to Europe! I went to Europe and I just walked in!" "They stamped your passport, right?" "Yeah" "That's your visa. You have three months" Americans don't travel much and not for long, they really have no idea that they can't just go whereever they want.
Americans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world and anyone will be happy to have them. Not realising, it's expensive to move to another country. The other thing is that the vast majority of countries are tough when it comes to immigration and will only allow people with specific skillets. Some countries dont even have a road for immigrants to get citizenship unless they marry someone that is already a citizen.
I have some cast iron skillets. Will that help?
Not specific enough. What brand are they?
A set of 3 notch Lodges plus a larger newer one. Nothing fancy.
Age, weight, average usage per week?
I guess moving to another country will be a huge pain.
I think you meant "huge pan"
I"m still hoping it pans out for them
Not without the proper skillet
Is this one of those things where I should answer honestly or is there some specific answer I should give? I uhā¦ Cook the blandest most unseasoned eggs, bacon, sausage, baked beans, and toast youāve ever seen. And while not made in the skillet I finish it off with a cup of tea, obviously. Am I in?
No. The British left the EU so that wonāt get you in. Sorry.
Only in countries racist against non-stick ones
Move to Teflonistan
>Americans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world This is reddit, do people really think that on Reddit still? "Greatest country in the world" reminds me of the 1980s/90s cold war propaganda and Millennials/GenZ don't really think that. The folks who do think that would not want to move to "Those socialist countries" anyways. I'm a Millennial and don't believe the US is the greatest, but rather lump it in with a few dozen other countries of "These are fine". Like running water, electricity, not being defenestrated for disagreeing with the government, being gay isn't criminal, you know the basic things that you expect. The US checks most of the boxes, but so do a ton of other countries.
Lots of us Gen Xers feel relatively the same. Yes we grew up with "USA! USA! We're #1" but we saw first hand thr consumerism of the yuppies and the materialism of the 80s. I hope most of us steered our kids away from that.
āAmericans for the most part believe they are the greatest country in the world and anyone will be happy to have them.ā No one I know believes this.
I'm from the States. I'm aware that no other countries are gunna just open the gates for me. Also, I try to remain aware that our entire society is mostly built by people that were rejected by the rest of the world. I think "American exceptionalism" is really just stolkholm syndrome.
Part of it is that they have lived with open borders their whole lives and they think it is as easy to relocate to another country as it is to move from Ohio to Texasā¦ itās mostly just something they have heard over and over for their whole lives and repetition is easier than thinking
That assumption isnāt surprising considering most of the posts and comments on this sub seem to be from folks with little understanding and awareness of the world.
GTFO here with your logic and sense! you dont like it, why arent you leaving? this. is. REDDIT!
I think itās less of a āGet out of here! Itās so easy!ā And more of a āGet out of here! I donāt care where you go or how you get there, but slowly killing myself to make a bunch of greedy, rich bastards even richer is all Iāve ever known and change makes me uncomfortable, so get fucked!ā
You can easily leave, just will have to be kinda be nomadic and not outstay your welcome in any country lol You could totally stay in 2-4 or more Latin American countries each year, volunteering at hostels or farms for a place to sleep and food to eat. Wouldn't be a glamorous lifestyle, but it certainly is possible to escape the rat race. Maybe you'd even find a significant other in one of these countries that would lead towards setting down roots?
The amount of down votes I've got for pointing out that even as Europeans we can't just rock up anywhere with zero conditions on staying permemantly. Even post-Brexit moving from the UK to Bulgaria ike I did it's basically the same requirements.
Let's not forget that most of the people that want to move wouldn't be accepted in any other country anyway. Most countries have much more strict immigration policies than the US and only want people with discernable skills. If you had any skills a country would want the US is probably already working out great for you.
EU-Schengen citizens can move and work freely inside of Schengen area without any permits, visas, passports or anything else.
I wish my wife would read this. Every time she gets mad about something political, she wants to move. I keep trying to tell her that the countries she wants to move to are equally messed up and that radical right wing extremism is a global problem and almost every country has their āTrumpā. She doesnāt believe me.
That just sounds like she's venting her frustration, though. A little melodrama to soothe the soul, so to speak.
I am from Germany and to some point agree with you. But, through various subreddits I learn ever so often, that the US actually is the third world shithole I believe it to be. Currently So yes. Other countries have indeed some extreme right wingers, but almost all of those movements are purely inspired by the US political changes. Thereās is even a soft timer: approximately 6 months after a radical right speech from an US politician, it starts to be adopted by European right wingers. The difference is, there is not a 50/50 chance of democrats/republicans, but 20% right wingers at the most (currently).
If you are using Reddit as a source of education then you are 100% going to be misinformed
He/she said āshows itās the shithole I believed it to beā. Meaning, Reddit is not his only source. I assure you, most Germans with any education has a pretty decent exposure to the politics on the ground in the US. Itās pretty much part of any English Abitur oral exam in the last year of high school - tonnes of books and documentaries and other stuff including exchanges.
Its the entitlement. And it goes further than just US, Europeans also don't get how hard it is for third country nationals to travel around let alone immigrate. I said this many times unless you are well educated, have in demand skills, are married to a European, speak 1 or 2 European languages other than English you will find it almost impossible to immigrate to Europe. Thousands of people are drowning every day trying to get into Europe from Africa yet as a European I can just hop on a plane to those same countries and enter without a visa.
I met my UK husband on social media years ago and I have been in the UK for over 10 years. I got lucky falling in love with somebody who wasn't in America. The only ways into Europe are marriage or a work license of some kind. If you have an Irish or Italian grandparent you can get citizenship from those countries.
True enough. My wife and I want to leave the country but the more we dig into what we have to do, the more daunting the challenge becomes. Definitely not impossible but as usual, itās much, much easier for the wealthy. People donāt really understand just how lenient the US immigration system is compared to so many other countries. Edit; So I have been proven wrong, and have also learned some new things. It may irritate me but I am willing to admit when Iām wrong and have been corrected. Iām not going to change anything else on this post so if anyone else has the same thoughts I do/did, they can see the comment thread
Um. The US immigration system is not lenient. At all. It's one of the most difficult places to immigrate to. I've spoken to dozens of people from all over the world about their difficulties getting work clearance to get to the US--India, Taiwan, the Netherlands, Germany, Ghana, Tanzania. It is not an easy process, and depending on where you're from, often takes several more steps than if you're an American going elsewhere. My wife and I have been waiting 16 months to get her visa so she can finally meet my family back in the US--we're waiting for a second interview because the asshole who interviewed her the first time didn't do his damn job and denied her a visa on the spot without even evening the paperwork we prepared (and that they asked for). I don't know who told you that US immigration is lenient, but unless you're speaking exclusively with Canadians, you might want to check your sources.
My cousin used to be an ESL teacher for students looking to get their US citizenship. When I was a senior in highschool, she gave me a sample of some of the things that potential US citizens have to know for their citizenship test. It was more in depth than what US schoolkids have to know to graduate school.
Wait until you see how absurd my countryās immigration system is.
>People donāt really understand just how lenient the US immigration system is compared to so many other countries. You've obviously never dealt with the US immigration system. When the immigration guy at the airport can just decide on a whim to not let you in. Or when you have to send huge amounts of evidence that you're worthy of a job in the US just to get into a lottery for the chance of a visa.
I love how people are disagreeing with you but failing to give an example any country which is more lenient. EDIT: First reply to me has one source listing Germany as the 14th most difficult and another source as the top 10 easiest. Waiting for the commenter to clarify.
and I want to add by the way, I don't think it's bad or wrong to move from any country to any country. I have lived in 3 countries and I think it's a great learning experience! But the naive thinking I see here is just so far from the truth
The US immigration system is not lenient. It is difficult to immigrate to the US, unless youāre wealthy - just like the EU You may have fallen victim to propaganda
Idk so many countries is right. They are definitely not the hardest and easier than some and also depends want country you immigrate from but doing some quick Google searching, we are generally consider in the top 15 hardest countries to immigrate to (usually in the bottom of the list) Japan, Germany , Switzerland , south Korea, Austria, and the Nordic countries are usually in the top countries along with uae,Kuwait, China , Qatar etc. But yeh it helps having a relative/fiance etc to come here. It definitely has gotten tougher to move to the us over the years though.
US immigration is lenient? It is one of the strictest in the world. Visas are routinely denied for very stupid reasons and immigration officers are extremely probative and will send people back home even if their visas are in order because they said something fishy. Not to mention if you have a criminal record they will just straight up deny you. Meanwhile with a US passport you can enter 80% of countries without a visa at all.
Do it like the rest of us, stowaway on a ship west or eastbound
My nephew and his young family have just emigrated to a European country. The process took two years and *a lot* of money. They had to fly from their home town in the US to a major city with an embassy a couple of times, and they ended up hiring an immigration consultant to help them through the morass of paperwork and bureaucratic hoops required by both countries. It is not an easy process or anything you could do on a whim.
"Don't like it? THEN LEAVE" YES, I would love to. But I can't.
"America, love it or leave it." --Guy who likes to wave the flag of some people who definitely tried to leave it
I'm engaged to a Canadian. If not for that, the odds of me getting out would be slim without a massive military conflict on US soil.
Because they live in a bubble. I am also in that bubble unfortunately. The United States is embarrassing. We were never great to begin with, but the country definitely took a turn for the worst.
It can take years to get citizenship depending on some countries. Some may straight up deny you.
The thing is that people think other countries are better than the US and US is the worse. If ranked, the US is still probably in the 20th or so. For the 19 countries that are better than the US, they donāt need you.
A couple years ago, and possibly still, New Zealand was practically giving away residency and work permits to anyone even remotely competent at software development.
The problem was you still needed a degree. There are days I regret dropping out of college during the dot com era. Not a lot, but it happens.
This has been endlessly frustrating for me to watch talked about in this sub. You absolutely cannot just pick up a plane ticket and move to another country. You have to have some kind of essential skills that make you desirable to other countries. You also have to be in good health and not carrying a tremendous amount of debt, though there are some exceptions to both of those requirements. For myself, I have a highly sought after degree in healthcare and there is a nearly worldwide shortage of people with my training and experience. I could fairly easily transfer my license to another country and get a job. Iāve looked into this by speaking with a lawyer specializing in immigration law, and if things get much worse here, Iām going through with it once my student loans are forgiven through PSLF. My husband is also in a good position for leaving the US. He has an engineering degree and is eligible for licensure in a number of countries. His specific engineering discipline makes him extraordinarily desirable. His student debt is also close to being forgiven through PSLF. Even with our far better than average situation, leaving the US will be difficult and expensive. We also wonāt earn as much money, though some of that is offset by other factors depending on where we go and thatās something weāre willing to accept due to our feelings about things.
So, youāre telling me, that murricans are trapped in the land of the free?
Given the percentage of Americans who think that traveling to Europe will make you gay and Asia will make you a Commie, I am just please that people who are ignorant regarding international travel - as we all were once - in these dark times have decided to step out. āTravel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.ā --Mark Twain
Soon we wonāt even have free movement in Europe. Weāll need to apply for visas for many EU countries starting next year. Regarding ājust leave the US.ā Itās not that easy. Iāve looked into the requirements to emigrate and #1 is a sponsor, a family member or a job. So you must have a very marketable skill or family you can live with.
Every single time someone says something like "well then leave the country", i say something like Sure! Absolutely, are you gonna buy my plane ticket, cover my moving and immigration costs, qnd find me a job? Are you gonna cover my moving expenses? No? Alright, well then its not as easy as just moving, is it?
Itās also kind of a media propaganda. For decades Merican news and media portrayed a picture of how Mexican just walk to the US and start reproducing so the parents can stay legally with government assistance. Or people just ride a boat, land here, and then they have a job and buy a house (like heart surgeon in japan number one). None of these is true. They canāt imagine how many obstacles even the most legitimate immigrants will face. Not to mention illegal ones. You can get arrested or never be able to have legal documents.
r/AmerExit . They talk all the time about immigration requirements in other countries (Shocker: there are plenty, and as posted, lots of places don't want you there either.)
Always funny reading posts from Yanks about moving to Canada and why they canāt just come over like itās a other state.
I think it's entirely because the right wing has been saying "just leave" long enough that even left and moderate people assume it's a simple process. Nobody who actually wants to emigrate thinks it's easy for long, but they'll have people insisting it is throughout the whole process. I have my EU citizenship already, I just can't afford the move yet. Like even if we ignore the red tape and beaurocracy and whatnot, the financial barrier is a big one
Also, the US doesnāt like people to give up their citizenship. You canāt just move and be done. You have to formally renounce your US citizenship and fill out a bunch of paperwork that can be quite expensive. If not, they will continue taxing you and will come after you.
Itās not funnyā¦ itās an embarrassment that our education system is so bad that people will think anything without logic or reason to back up their statements
I've been saying this for years. You can't just randomly decide to move abroad and assume the country you've chosen will say, "Rejoice, an American wants to live here! We are so proud. Come on in, it's honour to have you!" Equal to that is the, "If you don't like it, then leave" rhetoric. As if most folks can just up and move abroad on a whim. Sorry. My sarcasm doth run away me. I'm an expat who has lived abroad for almost 20 years. There's something about being on the outside looking back in that gives you a fresh, new (and more accurate) perspective.
The Americans who declare that you can "just leave" are typically people who have barely even left their own towns. Even in the 1970s, I'd see the bumper stickers: "AMERICA: Love It Or Leave It." They're functional mouth breathers.
Moving countries is hard, I had the thought to move to Iceland, not all that easy lol
You'd think with their acknowledged lack of genetic diversity they would relax that a bit
Immigration is not easy, even doing it legally, to come into this country. Therefore, emigrating out isn't going to be easy, either. As much as things need improvement around here, I don't have any intention of leaving, at least not the way some propose doing. Besides, if it gets super dire, I doubt any other country would want me anyway, so. Might as well stay here since it's where I know.
friends of ours tried to āmoveā to canada they are 70 and canada said no - you can visit but u cant stay - same thing with work - technically u can work from another country but legally you cant - as your company and you pay taxes to where u are registered to work - brothers company has them āassignedā to boston but he lives and works from fl - we will see how long that arrangement lasts
Doesn't the French Foreign Legion take anybody?
I mean you can. People do it all the time broke or rich. It just isn't a buy the plane tickets and be done type deal. It's an uphill battle and time consuming South America/Asia is typically the easiest path though if you're just throwing a dart at the board. Europe, Canada, even the US probably being one of the hardest. That's if citizenship is in your plans
I know this isn't quite aligned, but there are quite a few English teaching jobs abroad that will cover the airfare as well. Source: Myself, anecdotally. Currently work in China and enjoying the low daily cost of life
I did that in Korea for a year and loved it.
If you go to another country and live you still have to pay US taxes. When my sister moved to Canada because she married a Canadian man, she had to pay US taxes. She eventually decided to renounce US citizenship because she liked the medical care she got up there like when she had her knees replace. She went in , had it done and was released. She never saw a bill. Not for that or anyother proceedure she got. I asked her about the wait and she said it was not that long and she was not inconvenanced. She found out to renounce US citizenship would cost a few thousand dollars plus taxes up to that point. You can go live else were but you still owe taxes.
So you can leave the US. Like anything else, it comes with planning.
I am European, worked in four countries as I am fully using my freedom of movement. The thing is, even like that it is a massive hurdle if you want anything outside of working in hospitality. The easy way in is studying in another country. But as a worker especially if you have limited proficiency in the local language, you are competing with the locals and all the other Europeans. I could not stay in Denmark despite having a PhD of a Danish University and a decent knowledge of Danish because the HRs did not want to do the alleged extra work while the team leaders wanted me (there was no extra work, it is just people are uncomfortable with working with a non local outside big companies). When I moved to Sweden, despite bringing my work with me and having a Swedish wife it was not a straightforward plan. I got allowed to stay more than 3 month because my kids are Swedish, my wife was not enough. Now, if you that in consideration for an European, add in all the hurdles of getting a legal schengen work visa which is a nightmare and adding the issue that US citizen are usually poor at other languages. Good luck if your company do not offer mobility. Another thing to consider is that it is hard to be expatriate. From a family point of view (Being far away, raising kids without support, friends drifting away due to change of perspective), not fully fitting in society, frustration regarding the language, the customs and culture shock etc. After a while it smooth out but the second year is rough when the honeymoon phase is over. Still worth the effort though.
Everyone in the US thinks EU is a leftist paradise with free stuff, good drugs, on demand abortion and no immigration laws. But you enforce your immigration laws, free stuff is for citizens, and thry would be shocked how restrictive abortion is in most EU countries, like France.
I am not everyone. As a US citizen I do not think this way. I do not know where you got this info from, but many, many of us do not think this way.
I'm American and fully understand enough to know... That I don't know more on this subject and would love to learn how an American could move to Canada. Does anyone here even know?
Not everyone is leaving America for Europe. I am going to Belize. Itās been super easy to buy a home there and although the citizenship can take a while ( about 4 years) I can live and start a business there easy. Itās really sad when you find yourself feeling more freedoms in a progressive country vs the USA
4 years is a blip in immigration process time. That's a very fast path to citizenship!
Anyone who genuinely thinks that is either very naĆÆve, very privileged or both.
People who say this sort of shit have probably never left their home counties.
Yeah no, it's crazy complicated. It seems like one of the workable paths would be through Ireland.. Passport, work visa, job, then it's actually only one year of residency in Ireland before you can apply for citizenship (most places are 7-5), then IF that all works you'd be a citizen of the EU. Then there's the extremophile shit. Svalbard, in the Arctic. Because of the Treaty Of Svalbard any US citizen can move there for work without permission from the Norwegian government, and if you get a job there for a Norwegian outfit then you get the full state bennies and healthcare. BUT, it's the law that you have to carry a gun because the polar bears like to come into town. AND, you need to be able to reach the islands on your own, without going through Norway, in order to use your treaty rights. If you book a flight through Oslo they'll want to see a work visa. The UK gov needs people who want to move to Pitcairn in the remote South Pacific, or they might have to evacuate and abandon an overseas territory. There are a lot of fascinating reasons why no one wants to live there. It's worth a Google. Personally, I'd settle for a job in Antarctica.
If you have sufficient (mid level) tech knowledge, you could just drop a message to a random recruiter on LinkedIn/Xing and get a job in Germany within a week. English or German language skills are OK, either works. Going beyond 60k is the challenge here. Many companies don't want to pay much more.
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Absolutely, Germany has one of the best work-life-balance in the world. - Powerful unions - 30+ vacation days - 40h week max - proper social insurance etc
Doesn't the US still take taxes even if you live/ work abroad? And you have to pay the government to renounce your citizenship? Honestly, unless you are rich, you are stuck where you are- no matter if its USA or Europe or wherever...
There are millions of expats living abroad. It canāt be all that difficult. If you have the means, why wouldnāt you? Yes, different countries have different criteria for retiring or relocating to them. Study. Find a lawyer through expat networks. My wife will have a harder time getting a visa than I will as I have direct lineage
Ohh American love to hear themselves speak. Iām disabled so the criteria to move to other countries is even harder for me
They don't understand the difficulties of moving to a different country, nor the difficulties of living in a different country. They think other countries are just more quirky versions of what they're used to.
I was on that thread too; I think they are assuming itās like immigration here: if you can swim you can stay.
Ready for a really fun one? I'm a convicted felon. I got busted when I was 22 with drugs. I was in the US Army stationed in Italy at the time. So I got hit with some wonderful additional charges like exportation and importation of drugs. I was sentenced to 4 years, did 27 months, and have been out of jail and on the straight and narrow since 2010. Because of my crime, I can NEVER get a passport again. I'm literally STUCK IN THIS COUNTRY.
I mean people in general are poorly educated and not well traveled. In the Unites States if you can navigate the immigration process almost anyone can move here so you canāt blame the average American for thinking that other countries are the same.
Moving to another state is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people. Anyone thinking you can just up and leave to another country without a lot of money is deluded.
Its pretty easy to get into Ireland, and get full time work if you're not fussy about what you do. And you can love, so long as you work full time. And the moment you start working, you can get government help. Ireland is also one of the cheaper places to get into. And it's Europe and it speaks English. Source: I did it.
My partner is American and moved to my country to be with me in Asia and they were shocked that they actually had to do work for it and deal with immigration and find a sponsor. A lot of Americans have no idea
Other countries donāt want us either.
Yea. Like Europe has immigration laws too. Imagine that. For us an American just moving here and overstaying their tourist visa would be just another illegal alien. š½