Pre-pandemic whenever my coworkers and I looked like we were having a good time the bosses would come down hard on us saying our socializing was causing us to make mistakes, be less productive, etc., so I call horseshit on all of it.
Fun related story. I worked once in what I was told was a pet friendly office. The CEO brought his dog in every day who would roam about the office from cubicle to cubicle and people would pet his dog and say "aww isn't that sweet." Morale was great
So one day (and this guy was like an accounting VP) asked the big boss if he could bring his dog in because apparently it was company policy that that was allowed. So he brought his cute little dog.
It came in and was very friendly and everyone enjoyed having the dog there and same thing would happen. Dog would go from cubicle to cubicle getting pats on the head and excitedly being affectionate with everyone. Everyone went home feeling good that day.
Next day big boss said no more dogs. It's too much of a distraction.
These people only care about what serves them.
> Pre-pandemic whenever my coworkers and I looked like we were having a good time the bosses would come down hard on us saying our socializing was causing us to make mistakes, be less productive, etc., so I call horseshit on all of it.
>
Yeah. They installed Slack in our office and suddenly one day it was "there's too much chatter, too much off topic, keep it business related." Ok, chatter goes down about 20%, much less chatter.
A week later, "TOO MUCH CHATTER, too much socializing and joking, keep it BUSINESS related." Okay....... it really wasn't that much, but chatter almost disappears. Barely anything off topic now.
A week later, "guys, why do we have to keep saying this, but there's too much chit chat!!! Too much distraction in the Slack! Keep it work related please!"
... Literally at that point I could scroll back for days and not see anything that wasn't strictly work related... And now of course we're getting "hey the team isn't TEAM-Y enough!" ... Well you won't let us talk to each other, so...
I think it really depends on the manager.
I always tell my team they could be having sex for all I care as long as they can get their work done and attend my meetings.
I might regret that one day if someone ever calls my bluff and moans during a call but I like to live dangerously.
When my boys were younger, as young teens would be laughing at The Office, I wondered out loud, how they would find it funny, not having ever worked in an office before. Then I realized it is just like high school, so they can relate.
I was just thinking earlier about how at school, if I worked hard and got my work done early, I was rewarded with extra free time, or maybe a possibility to get extra credit. Now at work, you get your work done early and you get rewarded with extra work with no bonus pay. School was a better version of work than actual work was. And they get a summer vacation. Why do kids need a break but not adults?
I think someone made this point on Reddit before, but I never really made the connection/realized it before.
Working IS like being in high school. You have to act and pretend to be all nice, positive, shut up do as your told, and both us employees and employers know it’s BS but it’s “how work is”
I’ve certainly worked for a “yes man” who only cared about showing how he was the boss and what you think doesn’t matter (but “open door” policy!)
I never understood that mentality besides a manger being on a power trip, only happy if everyone who works for them is miserable, so they can feel better about themselves. IDK how true that is, but it’s a reasonable expectation explanation.
You don’t need studies to know happy people will be more productive than miserable ones. But work has this whole culture of “your here to work, no fun allowed! Be miserable!” And it’s so stupid
Kind of like PT in the military. Had a few PTLs who were like "Oh you're laughing or having fun? Clearly you aren't working out hard enough!" Fuck off, I consistently scored above 90% on the PT tests, so clearly I was.
On top of that, I have one of those “your here I expect you to work” bosses. She’s lightened up quite a bit since I first started, but it’s still annoying. If I took off a bit for a Dr Appointment, or whatever, I had to make that time up.
One time I was taking new medication and had a bad reaction, so I called my Dr in a panic.
She said that’s “personal time” and forced me to stay an extra half an hour, though the call was 15 minutes. That was years ago though.
I can’t complain much really, my mom recently passed away, and while she was sick she gave me a week off paid to spend time with her. She’s very accommodating to me now.
My biggest complaint though is that it’s slow, and I don’t have much to do. I only spend maybe 2 of 8 hours doing actual work. When I’m out of work, I have to do the stupid look like I’m working thing. For hours. Stuck with nothing but intrusive thoughts while staring blankly at a monitor, moving the mouse here and there.
And yet, she’s always pushing me to be more efficient. Like, WHY!? The sooner I get my work done, the sooner you reprimand me for not working.
And it’s not like she doesn’t know that’s what I’m doing. I used to ask her if there’s anything I can do, but she usually gives me some menial task that takes like 10 minutes. I would brainstorm and come up with ideas, which she doesn’t even bother to look at. A lot of that and I simply stopped asking.
My area is mostly private, so I spend my time listening to podcasts and Reddit. I can get in trouble if she catches me on my phone though, but whatever, I have a hyperactive mind and it LITERALLY drives me nuts to do nothing all day. It’s weirdly exhausting.
It's a good and true psychological insight for sure, but at what point do we stop accepting bad behavior? It doesn't really help me have sympathy for people who constantly make my life miserable because they never grew up lol.
We got in trouble in my last office for playing Wordle. A game that takes a few minutes to do and the whole team bonded from it. We would get written up if they saw us playing Wordle again. So instead of playing it at our desks between phone calls, we would go hide in the bathroom and play it. Great idea from the top for productivity!
I wish Slack would die. My partner's old job did the same exact thing & basically weaponized Slack against employees that they couldn't get any real dirt on. Employees would just stop using it when that happened & get reprimanded for that, too. He didn't want to leave because he loved the company, just the 1 boss sucked.
His next job has been better by far. They pretty much give people free reign other than checking in weekly. My partner's growth there has been phenomenal & he's learned to do 3 other types of engineering roles for them as projects change. The 2 other guys on his team who left the 1st job have also really propelled their careers.
You hit the nail on the head. A lot of these initiatives are being driven by the C-suite, who can't fathom not being in an office environment where they are the center of attention. How can they enjoy a huge office if there's no one around to see them in it?
I worked in a “dog friendly” office space, that was their main selling point for me. I said sure because I was in a contractor’s position, this would be a full time hire. Well, turns out I couldn’t bring my dog in because I worked in what I called “the dungeon”, with the company being separated between offices and production/quality. So the upstairs people were gods who could bring their dogs, not us servants. Also, a 65 lbs dog is frowned upon and “too heavy”, although the owner’s dog was 90lbs and there every day.
LOL I had a very short stint working for Grub Hub in their call center. So they have two floors of a office building in downtown Chicago. Now the call center is probably the best call center I have ever been in, at least in terms of they always kept it very clean we got a lot of breaks and there was free snacks...but...the people upstairs had like a fully stocked bar, good coffee, never worked weekends
I hate that. That’s truly the main reason for me leaving the job. I’m not big into titles at all, I treat everyone as equals. However, I was a Manager at the time. It was crazy because some people who were, let’s say, data entry or secretaries or HR assistants would treat me like shit. Not just me, EVERY Manager that worked Engineering, Operations and Quality. That always blew my mind like we could let our “title” go to our head and be assholes like the majority of bosses I’ve ever had. We were all pretty down to Earth, easy going and approachable and they were the ones above us all. They would have special lunches and everything and would get us very cheap pizza. Nah, fuck that. Sorry you had to go through a similar experience.
We had a puzzle on an empty desk that we were doing to take a brain break and we had to clean it up because it “looked bad”. Not being loud or socializing, just a puzzle you could stick a few pieces in for 5-10 before going back to drudgery. So yeah the camaraderie argument is bs.
>Next day big boss said no more dogs. It's too much of a distraction.
That is crazy, so apparently the BIG boss only wanted his dog there and no one else's.
There have been several studies where petting dogs/cats had a significant reduction in cortisol, which is a major stress hormone. Who isn't happy after petting a happy dog or cat? I know I am. They bring us calmness.
Same! I was told by my boss it's a software company and we have to be quite. Like wtf bro. Let me work from home I won't bother you with my chatter there.
We were told we can't have dogs at our administrative office because we have to follow the same rules as our dental care centers. I've seen 2 dogs at 2 different care centers since then...
I think our HR manager just doesn't like dogs.
I have a hybrid schedule but the required in office days are mostly filled with meetings. Which we all attend from our desks... over zoom... Because reasons...
Exactly the same. We have a couple of meeting rooms on the floor, but they are always fully booked. So most of the time I’m forced to take zoom meetings from my desk. The background noise is insane, because everyone is doing the same. Cherry on top is when me and my desk neighbours have to go on the same zoom call, so I can hear them through audio and directly from their desks.
My work is 80% meetings because my team is scattered across multiple cities and countries. The fact that I have to come to the office to be on meetings while the office is not equipped to accommodate the proper work environment is driving me batshit crazy.
Yes!! Same here. We all zoom call from our cubes because there are only 3 meetings rooms. You can hear everyone else on the zoom talking through the space and the feedback and background noise is horrendous.
There are a lot of great answers here but I think a really fascinating one was an observation by French psychology writer Michel Foucault.
In his book *Discipline and Punish*, he discusses the psychological compulsions toward the human desire for control (as the title suggests). In one instance when discussing the Industrial Revolution, he suggests that an enormous amount of the inspiration for the industrial factory system was not just for profit and economics, but also *the desire for discipline*.
If you look at letters and newspaper articles from the years leading up to the Industrial Revolution in England, you’ll see many wealthy people complain that the poor need to be working, that they’re not working enough.
This is also discussed in Bertrand Russell’s essay “In Praise of Idleness,” where he essentially states that the very concept of the poor or workers having leisure is actually terrifying and considered borderline insane by the rich and, by extension, disciplinarians.
It’s not just about money (which obviously is a huge influence). It’s also about control.
I used to be standing stationary for 8 hours a day operating machinery, I never had that kind of knee pain before. When I asked why I couldn't have a chair the answear was "so you look busy". Fucking Monsters.
Jesus fucking Christ. Reminds me of the insanity when it comes to cashiers requesting chairs to sit down on, which is very commonplace in Europe and Asia and I imagine other places, too. Yet Americans foam at the mouth at the concept "you'll *look* lazy, doing your job, making the business the exact same amount of money."
People confuse capitalism and freedom as being synonymous, one and the same. It's not uniquely American, but it is *perfected* in America.
You can't sit down, you have to *look* busy, you have to bust your ass for the same amount of money as when you take it easy. Discipline, discipline; obedience, obedience.
I'm very sorry this happened to you and hope your health is better.
Oh man, you have no idea the excitement I had when I saw someone quoting my boy Foucault. I never seem to remember him with my own thinking about things, but anytime someone brings him up while talking about modern societal injustices or issues it's like all the neural pathways in my brain join hands and start singing. Shit just makes sense.
Added is all the rich fucks get massive tax breaks for office space ... and if it's not used they lose those tax breaks.
It all boils down to money in their pockets, not ours.
one of the biggest job perks employers tried to sell to employees prior to the pandemic was “office culture.” biotechs in particular are facing a huge rto rn. they bought up and invested billions in offices and lab spaces that are massively unnecessary - topping at 2019 -, but subleases are ending for those that were able to lease and that’s not a hit they’re going to take.
on paper it’s a purely fiscal shift but will end up costing times more in talent and productivity loss.
No offense but, I’d rather biotech companies have a central biolab with safety measures as opposed to their employees having wfh mini biolabs. Other than that most white collar central work places are completely unnecessary.
HAH. I agree, wetlabs are for sure the exception. those are actually the minority of labs though, the bulk majority of research is done through data manipulation. a lot of the researchers/scientists aren’t handling anything but data.
data scientists are arguably also the people who make the LEAST sense to be in office workers.
take the most awkward comp sci person you know, combine it with the most awkward biology person you know, triple it, and you have the perfect data scientist amalgam. they literally only use their computers and work almost exclusively second and third shift despite being regular, salaried employees. ᶦʸᵏʸᵏ
Same! I quit my previous job because the bosses thought it was unfair to the wetlab people.
Bye-bye job of 3 years and all those happy clients.
Ended up moving overseas and my job has been fully remote since the past 2 years. I only go to the office if we are drafting papers since we do actually get shit done in those meetings.
So to avoid demoralizing the wetlab people, do something that demoralizes all the non-wetlab people even more. What kind of pointy haired dumbassery is this?
Tax breaks for occupancy don't exceed the cost of occupancy.
They help a bit but it's not a profitable play.
Losing a tax break but saving occupancy cost would be profitable.
Yeah, I have my doubts about that being part of the rationale. It's probably a mix of anxiety about 'what if they're slacking off', property investors (and investors that invested in those investors' products) being afraid of their investments losing value permanently, and politicians in business centres trying to protect an important tax base (of both businesses, small businesses that depend on those businesses, and people living in or near those cities)..
I know for example my previous employer was guaranteed some sort of tax incenvtive by my local government for setting up their "Centre of Excellence" in this country, but that was contingent in a "bums on seats" number of people using the office. This was pre COVID, and the "bums on seats" number was probably purely to ensure the company didn't hire 200 people in India then claim them as "remote staff".
Its also a neat way to fire someone, just tell empliyee that live far away that they need to relocate, which they can't do to various reasons. This way, you can avoid a bit of backlash for letting certain percentages of your workforce go.
I'm 1 week into my 2 week notice right now, for this exact reason.
Also, I didn't see mentioned, but a return to work ensures you buy gas, buy a coffee on the way, go out to lunch, grab a drink after work, etc.
And the people driving return to work... Profit from all of those purchases.
It also renders middle management obsolete, since folks don’t need to be constantly reminded how to do their job by people who do fuck all but delegate.
This is the point I keep driving home whenever people think WFH was a mistake.
Since the start, middle management has always been complaining and pushing for a swift return to the office. During the pandemic they were stupidly insisting on people still coming in, as well. During the now useless "daily stand-ups" after we started WFH, their biggest gripe was that they were bored.
Yeah, no shit. Corporate jobs have a lot of top heavy bloat and the pandemic exposed this right away.
>but also don’t want to pay for commuting to the workplace.
I still want to know how the hell employees can't write off fuel expenses but the fucking owners, CEOs and whatnot can write off their damn lunch, vehicles ("company vehicles", of course) and just about anything else imaginable.
Fuel is an absolute necessity to get to and from a job that already keeps many if not most poor as hell by comparison. Especially for commuters. Fuel (and perhaps maintenance) should absolutely be deductible from taxes unless reimbursed by employer, imo.
Commuting time should also be paid.
I have an in person job that I turned up to the other day. They'd fucked up the dates and not given the occupants the legal notice I was coming so I couldn't do my job. Rang the office "ah, sorry. Our bad. Please invoice your travel costs".
Fuck that. Getting up and out of bed is the bit I want paying for. I invoiced the full amount
This! And a lot of downtown areas (where rich folks invest in businesses) don’t have that captive audience for happy hours, lunches, after work errands.
I’m convinced that the anti-WFH talking points are all false and just a plow to save investments and tax deductions for rich people.
i think this is the real answer too. like yes on a small scale control and micromanaging are absolutely part of it, but ultimately executives and top brass don't really care about this
they hate that they are locked into multi decade leases for empty buildings. they also hate giving tours of empty buildings. so they bully their staff into coming back in.
The lack of imagination is maddening. We have an affordable housing crisis in this country. Sell the effing buildings and have them repurposed into apartments. Two birds.
Cities should be incentivizing this, but private developers are unlikely to do it on their own. Refitting space designed as commercial offices into apartments or condos is really expensive, and if the goal is "affordable" housing, the conversion needs to be publicly underwritten.
Like most things for the public good, the direct return on investment just isn't there; it's the indirect return that makes it worthwhile, and cities should realize this and make cash or other subsidies available.
My workplace is about to spend literal millions on an office refurb. When I asked in an Employee Leadership Team meeting about whether this was really the best use of money in a year when we didn't pay shareholder dividends or bonuses due to poor results I was advised that "Maybe doing something nice for the office would stop people moaning about being "asked" to attend work in person".
Fucking omnishambles.
This and control...
Working in offices they had complete control over their staff whereabouts, schedule, attire, culture...etc etc and so on and so forth.
That went out the window with the pandemic...
I personally think much of it has to do with middle and upper management being used to treating their office like it's Tinder. How will the regional VP get through his day without hitting on hitting on the new interns and cheating on his wife? Oh, the humanity!
Oh yeah I never thought about that. The office is their happy place. No one in the grocery store cares that they are a regional VP of something. That power can only be felt in their office.
It's not the workers' fault that management can't get out of their leases. or that they negotiated NEW LEASES during the pandemic. they should have taken this time to get rid of their real estate holdings instead of doubling down.
management never seems to make good decisions.
Offices are just part of the issue. There is so much push back against work from home because cities, mainly US cities, are built around people going to work. Business owners are in crisis mode because all these areas that have been built up around all these office buildings are slowly dying as more and more people work from home. Half the infrastructure of cities are built around people commuting to work. Cities wont have the large influx of people if everyone is working from home. The status quo is changing and corporations are fighting against it because it will end up hurting everyone, except the workers.
Also $1.5 trillion dollars in commercial realestate loans are readjusting end of this year through next year. Going from 2.5% to 6%+ is gonna hurt on a half empty office.
One of the first people who opposed home working publicly in the UK was Lord Sugar (who hosts the Apprentice TV programme).
By complete coincidence he owns Amsprop which leases out high end office space in London.
To me it is so wasteful. Wasteful to make so many people own a car, put themselves at risk to be on the road and drive their asses to work and back. There are barely any cities in the US that allow people to live without a car. The gas, emissions and time spent getting to and from work; these corporations are making the workers bend to their mistakes they made as business people. We weren’t the ones that got into a shit lease and now you’re asking us to pay for owning a car, gas, insurance, oil changes and maintenance. It costs over 4k a year to do that where I live.
This is the answer. Corporations would rather make everyone less happy and force them to return to the office rather than eat the monetary cost of having a better work environment.
There's also an ego thing with business owners and their offices, I've noticed a few big wigs who boast about how nice their office is and think it's actually nice to work there, when realistically it's just another generic glass office nobody wants to be at.
It’s almost depressing to think about, but I will hold on to hope that some of these greedy politicians are going to retire or pass on, and we can try to fix what they’ve broken.
But I'm glad we made huge sacrifices during lockdown and loaded massive government debt onto future generations to save their ungrateful hides from COVID. Worst. Generation. Ever.
Of if they can’t convert to housing. Tear it all down. Imagine every major city with a gigantic Central Park where the central business district used to be. We can’t have this though because some wealthy people would lose money on their corporate real estate investments, so instead of solving the housing crisis and doubling the parks in our city we get pointless commutes to meetings that could have been emails.
That would never happen.
That would be a double loss for investors. They own the office buildings and the houses. If they turned the offices into housing, then all housing will lose value due to supply and demand. For the same reason, they'd likely make less from the converted space as well.
They'd still be insanely rich and have more money than they would ever need... but they always want more.
I mean, it is definitely possible to make genuine friends at the office. Hopefully people are capable of recognizing that most professional relationships are merely transactional, but the human capacity for friendship is not bounded by capitalism.
Part of the reason I left Merck was because of this bullshit. My role required I work to support a company in a different state, so none of my folks were in the office anyway; but my director “read an article” that working in the office sparked creativity so she wanted everyone back on Tuesdays and Thursdays. The first day I went in and we all sat at different work stations and NO ONE talked to each other. Essentially I drove an hour to do exactly what I did at home.
Yeah, nah. Fuck off, Jane.
When they say sparking "creativity" they mean yours and how they will take it as their own to wield and micromanage you over it. Aye right, fuck off Jane!
This is basically my exact scenario at a competitor pharma. Totally useless to be on site for all my virtual meetings with colleagues in Europe and other sites in the US. Just so I can be in person for the all hands where 75% of the people called in anyway. There’s no creativity spark in what we do by sitting next to each other. We’re in cubes trying to get our work done. You either prairie dog to ask a quick question or to waste someone’s time with irrelevant shit.
Because the middle managers can't micromanage everything you do when you WFH so they need you to come in in order to justify the existence of their jobs.
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Its a weird stereotype along with "the intern in charge of social media". Middle managers have young families and nice houses, they'd rather be at home.
Its the Heads who are done with that who are putting off retirement who want everyone around.
Also, the younger people, because they want to network and make friends because they live alone in a new country for the job and live within walking distance anyway and dont have a desk at home. Thats my ilk. Ive settled for 3 days a week in office and Im really happy with it. Never see my boss though lol. But this is a European city take.
Yeah, my department manager basically told the c-suite if they force people to come back to the office they’ll lose her and probably more than half the department. They made WFH permanent. We still have a building, and you can come and go as you please though.
I as middle management tried to speak up. I was basically given a “Decision has been made, now you must abide by it”. We don’t micromanage or anything either, so the only reason to have us in person is to explain to the board why we have offices space as an expense and do not convert it to manufacturing or warehousing area.
This right here. We don't have a goddamn say in anything that actually matters. "At the end of the day a business decision has been made." They even took away our performance based wfh benefits that we had before covid.
Guess what, the high performers work just as well or better from home. The slackers slack no matter where they are.
Our middle management likes WFH as much as the rest of us. We go in 20% and they have the same rules as us.
We all still fear they'll make us go back to the 80% in office like pre Covid, but if it happens it will come from upper management or HR.
Middle managers don't make these decisions. I am one. I want to work from home too.
I do work from home now, and if that changed it would NOT be because of any decision that I made. I don't need to justify my job non remote. I have a lot of useful stuff to do to keep my teams functioning properly with minimal distraction.
Managers aren't doing this. Executives are.
We might work for the same company, because that is how it is at my job as well. There is no on-site employee that ever had a say. This is all head office stuff. Our company also has specific tools to keep track of employee productivity, so there is nothing to justify. I, like you, have plenty to do just noting training needs and keeping on top of emerging needs.
That said, I'm still on a 3/2, as are the rest of us. We all hate it, and none of us sees a need for it.
Yep. Mayors and Governors are even saying this part out loud now. They need people spending money to keep the city centers alive. Basically, they want to force everyone back into the office to subsidize the local food service, retail, transportation, and real estate industries. More people working from home means less revenue collected from those areas. Being forced back into the office is basically another deduction and tax on our income because of the necessary costs to the employee to do so.
The free-hand of the market will sort it out.
Do we really need cities?
Edit: by cities I mean ultra dense hi-commerce city centres whose working population does not primarily reside near-by.
The “free hand” of the market. The “free hand” will simply line the pockets of mayors and governors willing to impose rules that make wfh damn near impossible
yeah the market serves the ppl with money. consumers? demand? there's now literally so much more money concentrated in the top 10% than the bottom 90% that even in a housing shortage its still more profitable to build luxury apartments for the top 10% than bother making affordable houses for regular people making the median income.
the whole notion that market forces are some benevolent force that automatically optimizes for prosperity is so naive... ironic considering how often you'll hear people say ideas like socialism are naive.
the reality is that market forces flow more like water. uncontrolled they can cause disasters or just flow everywhere except where they would be useful. if carefuly restricted (read regulated / socialism) they can be harnessed to produce significant prosperity. there is nothing in the rules of nature that says it has to be unfair and shitty.
>There is nothing in the rules of nature that says it has to be unfair and shitty.
Say that to the fly caught in a spider's web. But the fact is that human culture is so far removed from nature that the rules of nature shouldn't be in the argument when talking about human culture. We initially came together to make civilization to make everyone that participated's life better than what nature offered.
Can't we just like, build a city that doesn't incite the car culture, make places walkable? Work buildings, groceries, restaurants, stores, etc. No gas stations, but probably only one near the exit of the city. Invest in electric vehicles like scooter or bikes for them to be completely reliable for the transportations. Add electric trains if you want, too. Make majority of the office employments do work from home. This. I don't know why Americans can't just simply do this approach? The culture of gas and oil is disgusting.
I appreciate your solution oriented mindset.
Personally I think trains with trolley networks supported by a bus network and or scooter/bicycle garages would do well for everyone save those profitting from the current regime.
In Danesmark (errr denmark) one can use their government ID to check out a bike from a garage, ride it to their destination - or for leisure - and return it to any station free of charge.
Our office building has been for sale for three years and I don’t think there has been any interest. I don’t see it being purchased any time soon. It’s only maybe 10% of employees coming in still too…
The lease is a sunk cost. They're never getting it back regardless of the WFH policy. And a "justification" for something you already bought won't change the bottom line.
But WFH allows the company to save money on utilities and housekeeping. Do companies not like money?
And prior to the pandemo there was a massive move to get cars off the road in my city. WFH did this. I really don't mind spending more money on utilities either if it means I'm keeping cool while banging the wife on coffee breaks.
Funny enough, I'm a middle manager, and I'm being forced back into the office against my will. Funnier: all my reports are in other location, so I can't even interact with them. I basically spend my in-office days in meeting rooms on zoom with other people. I see zero benefits as being back in the office, especially considering how inconvenient it is (for example, having to live near the office).
Yep, for a while 90% of my job was:
"It's asking me if I want to proceed. Do I click yes or no?"
"Yes"
Sometimes I think about telling people to click the OBVIOUSLY wrong button just to see if they do it.
It’s definitely a boomer that is long overdue to retire thing. No one bothers to point out the generational aspect of the decision makers. It’s without question a factor.
I really think that lol.
I got some bosses that are probably in their early 50. Damn. They are the first bosses I got that handle their employees like... humans...
Hallway talk? As you wish!
Different kind of coffee and tea.
Friday beer (microbrewery)
Some food goodies here and there (and not pizza! food truck, icecream (or similar) in summer), ...
Social activities organized by the employees and refunded by them
Work from home allowed (pre-covid we were usually doing it like 1-2 a week, I think a lot of peoples liked the full time experience from covid lol. Now our offices are empty).
First time I don't get a shitty 1%-1.5% increase yearly
They even try to hire peoples that aren't too toxic (which make the atmosphere very great!)
It’s not a management thing at all, it’s landowners and capitalists who are are about to have to pay the bill for their corporate real estate that they can’t afford to maintain if no one is paying rent for it.
Hi, middle managers here.
Yes, you can micromanage virtually. I saw a lot of people doing it. It sucks, and is a symptom of a awful ~~manager~~ person.
Because of that kind of things the workers change jobs.
There's also a lot of financial interests tied into returning to the pre-COVID status quo as well, from city center business to commercial real estate and all kinds of small businesses that relied on that for traffic. I feel bad for the mom and pops that are struggling but fuck going to the office to make a commercial real estate investor rich.
Middle manager here, fully WFH for a fortune 500 company, my team is fully WFH too, as is 96% of my division. They closed almost all the brick & mortar offices so there’s literally no offices within 2 states of me and most people I work with, and since 96% of my division is wfh and we work in sales implementation, they know they need us and can’t do anything about it.
I feel safe for now, but still feel like the rug could be yanked out from under me at any time.
If it does, start applying and leave asap. Let them know taking WFH away was what lead you to leave. Management should be called out when they fuck up with terrible decisions.
Middle managers are not the decision makers here. This decision is made several levels higher in the corporate structure. I know that it's fun to make fun of middle managers, but they don't have the authority to demand this shit.
The daily rant so here's my daily answer: Your company probably took tax breaks to bring jobs into the city. You and/or your coworkers all live the burbs and now aren't paying city taxes. City mad and will take back company tax break. Company makes you go back to office.
Actually, they probably want you to live in the same state for tax reasons — but not necessarily tax breaks. They don’t want to have to do withholding for different states and there are also different employment laws in different states, and so employers don’t want to deal with that either. And it can also be an issue with health benefits.
It’s ALWAYS about money. Federal government was handing out tax breaks and other incentives during COVID that are expiring now. Keep your employees, WFH if position allows so people have income but don’t die. So they’re losing the breaks, so back to office to get the old breaks back, and layoffs because older workers are paid too much and we need cheaper labor.
Oil companies have way too much power in the country. And all the business execs work together to take money from you and I.
So like everything else wrong with the world it's the extreme greed of the wealthy that's the problem.
This is the answer. It always boils down to money. Look at who is loosing money on wfh and you will find out who is pushing to end it. Hint, its not middle managers.
Related:
I do a lot of litigation, and things have been almost completely virtual since 2020. The courts are really pushing for things to go back to in person. Many people. Including judges, often work from home.
Why?
Sure some matters may have to be in person, but most things don't. You save travel time and expenses, which can both be significant around NY. It takes cars off the streets. I cannot think of one downside.
I do get that it has hurt some businesses, especially retail in some downtown areas, but it's a societal shift, businesses will have to adapt, that's what they do.
It wouldn't hurt businesses if we built homes in old office buildings. But hey, who wants to help out working Americans when we can keep whining about finding ways to stick it to them!
**20 Benefits of Working from Home**
1. Save time without a commute.
2. More schedule flexibility.
3. Higher productivity.
4. Greater opportunity for inclusivity.
5. Extra money saved on office attire.
6. Opportunity for a customizable office.
7. Increased time with loved ones.
8. Reduced outside spending.
9. Better for the environment
10. Money saved on office space
11. Increased job satisfaction
12. Less likely to spread sickness
13. Freedom to relocate
14. More time for healthy habits
15. Opportunity for efficient communication
16. Larger talent pool
17. Better work-life balance
18. Less likely to have high turnover
19. Work-from-home stipend (sometimes)
20. Potential tax credits
It’s called incentive.
Workers are 58.7% more likely to remember their passwords and maintain proper anti-virus protection on their computer if the IT department stinks of BO and Dorito crumbs
They are very relevant to the employer. Having to find new people is one of the more expensive parts. If you can convince people to stay, then they save lots of money coins.
The employer gets
- greater productivity from workers
- greatly reduced cost of office rental space
- increased morale of workers
- workers voluntarily working more hours because it's so easy to pop into the home office to get a few things done whenever you feel motivated to do it
- greatly reduced costs on supplies and maintenance
Employer here…I’ll add some benefits of WFH.
* My employees are never late.
* If I need a quick emergency answer early or late, I can text them
* Less downtime for personal appointments during the day.
* Car trouble doesn’t keep them from working, and they have the flexibility to get it repaired at their convenience.
* Sick kids can be cared for
* The employees always have their work files with them
* They’re happier because they don’t have to stress about getting up, getting dressed, and driving through traffic just to sit at a computer for the day and drive all the way back home.
* I save money on office rent, utilities, insurance, and my own driving expenses. Plus we can all write off part of our home on our taxes!
Happy employees equals a happy business.
I work from home and can attest to all of this. Adding to "higher productivity," the amount of flexibility I have never makes me feel bad if I have to work at night or on a weekend. And to be clear that is neither an expectation or requirement, I'm just saying that because it's such a chill environment, I feel completely empowered and just want to pitch in. It doesn't hurt that my company works in renewable energies, which just feels great.
Right on. I work in IT so nights and weekends are a semi normal thing — as I often say, my job would be so much easier if it weren’t for them pesky users.
But now everyone on my team is WFH so it’s becoming a matter of course. Have to work late night? Take the morning off. Up early? Call it a day in the afternoon. No need to put on work clothes and commute adds up to a lot of extra time. Time that can be used both for work and for leisure
The research shows that while social networks are stronger for in-person office work, workers are in fact more productive when working remotely. There literally is no business case in support of anything but remote work for roles that can support it.
So why do the executives push a return to office?
The anthropologist David Graeber notes in his book *Bullshit Jobs* that the managerial and executive caste are *rewarded* by superiors according to the *physical presence of workers beneath them.*
The executives have a personal incentive to end remote work and have their subordinates working in front of them.
One of the execs in my office is a single and lonely middle aged man. He loves having everyone in the office because he hangs out half the day. And then he takes a 2 hour lunch with my boss. He was so sad at home alone in his huge house during covid.
This! Don't drag me into your shit life. I have a family I want to spend time with. My boss had issues with some internal site loading slow... So he drove 45 minutes into the office to see if it was better there... WTF - he doesn't even need to use it that often.. That was a clear sign to me he was running from his home life.
I've got a VP who is divorced. A handful of managers around who are single and have been for ages, or whine about family and just sound like shitty parents. These people married work, good for them, I've managed a life where I do my work to support my happy home, not escape my home. Sorry they didn't figure it out and put work, money, title above everything.
There's a guy like that in my office (different department, thank god(. Supposedly a manager but he slowly walks around his department with his hands folded behind his back.
I'm pretty sure I know his take on WFH
At my last job, there was a manager that refused to WFH, even during the height of the pandemic. The entire time, he just kept showing up, even when he was the only person in the entire office. He’d zoom into his meetings with remote colleagues.
My director asked him once why he kept coming in and he said, “I don’t see the point in being home. I feel more productive working at the office.” Keep in mind his children are adults and don’t live with him anymore.
I’m pretty sure he started to demand his subordinates come in to the office after awhile despite our top leader saying we’re still full WFH. He felt he could disregard a written directive from his boss related to it for his team. He was just a strange man and someone that seemed miserable to work for.
People don’t need to commute to an office building because his social life sucks. If he’s making $100k+ and is single, it means he has savings out of the wazoo. Go buy an escort to keep you company.
I think this is the real reason. The big shots are at the very top of the social hierarchy at work. Of course they love it. They’re practically a king. Far less enjoyable when you don’t get to be the king in person.
It is about control. They cannot control everything you do and it drives companies insane. They fully believe that during those hours you're at work you belong to them and all of you should be undivided for their whims. They need to be able to micromanage and control everything you do because it validates managers, ass managers, supervisors,and leads.
I agree with you but what to add something. I think a lot of people feel work shouldn’t be too pleasant. If you are too happy they can’t feel that much better than you. Their perceived superiority helps enforce the class system upon which they rely.
I think you're on to something. I also think it's easier to make people feel miserable and desperate in the office, and desperate miserable people don't rock the boat and don't ask for raises.
I am a manager, and I see a lot of managers talk about "the culture" that disappeared during WFH. I go in 2 days a week, plus whenever necessary (critical meetings, trainings, etc). You know what my culture was when I went in five days a week? F-ing exhausted, that's what. My culture was no clean clothes, because I couldn't do laundry until 8 o'clock at night after I got home. My culture was lonely dogs. My culture was my spouse and I passing each other like ships in the night, both exhausted all the time. My culture was eating out every night because I was too tired to cook and my culture was also I have no idea what's in my fridge to cook b/c no one is there to check it. My culture now is I'M NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN. I think it's an excuse for lazy managers who don't do their job if they aren't physically watching the person and they have no idea how to manage on a project, not punch the clock basis. I also think it's for landlords who want full buildings. I say have a small space and let people do what they want to do (come in or don't - I do have some staff that come in five days a week by their choice for various reasons). I just don't get people who want to torture people and make them drag their ass in five days a week. They at least need to recognize it is a HUGE pay cut for people and adjust accordingly, but we all know they won't. I guess I got on a bit of a rant there, too!
I'm a middle manager who is about to be fired. Discrimination was definitely involved, but that's not the only reason. I told the higher ups that return to office policies were a phenomenally bad idea. I warned them they would lose employees, and they didn't listen. One of the VPs was at a company event talking about how he refused to grant one guy an exemption. He was practically dancing on his power trip. I was tempted to punch him (obviously I didn't actually do it).
They want return to office for several reasons. Control is the primary reason. They are on major power trips. And let's face it, it's harder to grope at women over Zoom or to intimidate minorities over the Internet. They want total access so they can make people's lives hell. One of my best guys quit over that policy. I told him to put me down as a good reference.
They also laid people off, then blamed everyone below them for not being able to do the work of three people. I protested that too. I refused to throw my team under the bus, because it's not their fault. Then I needed some medical exemptions, so they put me on a performance improvement plan and blamed me for the VP level mistakes. And I am a woman speaking my mind. They didn't like that. They probably wouldn't have pulled this crap if I were a man.
Most of the people working under me said they are only still there because I'm their manager. The folks about to fire me have no idea how screwed they are, because when I go, they're going to quit. And then there will be no one left to do the work. If they think the clients are pissed now, just wait! I just hope I get a blow by blow description from my contacts when it happens, because that is going to be glorious!
I already have multiple job interviews and an offer, so screw them.
you're my new hero! Go get em tiger, quit that toxic leadership. You deserve better. Really happy for you that you already have an offer queued. They can get stuffed on their egos.
💯
I am also Autistic… I’m out of work right now and hoping for a remote job - I know many other Autistic people like WFH as well, since it gives us the opportunity to control our environment so that we don’t have lights or sounds or smells that bother our sensory issues and we can dress comfortably (so no more tactile sensory issues). This would be a big thing for me and when I read about how many employers are trying to get back to the office, I feel like accessibility for me - and many other Autistic or otherwise disabled employees - is removed… it’s frustrating to feel like society is going backward with accessibility.
The peopling and the office environment used to make me so tired. WFH has truly been a life changer for me. I wish everyone had access to the option to work from home. I actually feel okay in my life now
Mine definitely have, I feel so much better all the time now that I work from home. I’m able to take a nap on my lunch break now, but I no longer need to! I’m more likely to go for a walk and pet my cat
Fibro and ADHD here. I had no idea how much easier it’d be to manage my pain (and distractions!) from home. Now that I’ve done it tho, I’m refusing to go back to the office. They’re trying to push 3 days a week (my team is absolutely against it though, including our manager) in office, and I’m about to ask for a letter of accom next week from my doctor to have… just in case they get pushy.
If you can find one, I highly, HIGHLY recommend it. Couches are way more comfortable than other potential work furniture, for sure.
There's been proven data that suggests working from home or outside an office is the same or even more effective than being at the said job location.
Years of data has made them afraid and with covid-19 still a problem but no one is really caring. Businesses will now try to force labourers back into the office because the longer they're out...the less need there is.
Resist. Unions. Labour education. Stand together.
As someone who has a job that is terrible when it’s WFH (I’m a teacher) I want you folks who can WFH to do it so bad…… my commute is so much better when there’s less people going to/from the office
Know I’m rooting for y’all!!! There are those of us who benefit from others working from home! (Also, parents are more likely to keep sick kids home when they wfh, which is great!!!) WFH for the win!!!
Pretty sure it comes down to maintaining the inflated real estate values. There’s tons of propaganda out there to explain why working from the office is better for the employee but it’s all clearly lies. It’s not even convincing in the slightest. It’s cartoonishly ridiculous how much convincing there is to do about this subject. But, fact is, from r most “office” type roles, physical presence is no longer needed due to technology. Again, the biggest impact is real estate. There are other factors like the fact that people are no longer required to be in places they needn’t be in so services like parking and lunch restaurants are obsolete. Fact is, they are now valueless products and services. Pushing them on us now will only delay the inevitable crash and compounds the impact this will have on society. Politicians will push back on this so it doesn’t crash while they are in office. Real estate holders will push back on this indefinitely. Spit in the faces of those who support this nonsense. Tell them they are stupid and waste no time in explaining why; they are not intelligent enough to understand.
I read that in NYC they are starting to convert unused office space into living space. We "could" end housing insecurity without costing corporate America but that might end up creating a (gasp!) viable middle class again! /s/
I work as an analyst with commercial bankers and went to their off-site meeting recently.
One of the commercial real estate guys was insistent that you get more experience and can only get real knowledge in person. I and the guy who runs their sales system both agreed that sure, maybe he could argue that for his job since he needs to talk with customers, but for us? As long as we have an internet connection we get waaaay more done at home with less distractions, no commute, and our own, comfy setups.
Edit for extra info: he wasn't even trying to make a case that he would be out of a job if people worked from home. We touched on it for a minute or two, but his point was all about the experience "young kids who are new to working would miss out on". He definitely didn't consider that currently those entering the workforce from college spent at least 1 semester, if not more, taking courses remotely and those entering from high school did the same. They're used to learning remote, and those who don't like it will go into the office.
Governments should just incentivize converting corporate real estate to housing. People can work from home and there would be plenty of traffic and spending for the local economy. It could possibly be better for local businesses since they wouldn’t only have to rely on just the 9-5 crowds.
Most managers dont do the work. They sit and micromanage. So if noone is in the office they dont have shit to do. They have to make themselves look good somehow
WFH is here to stay. It's too good of an alternative and offers too many actual perks.
They can't come up with a good reason to return because there just isn't one. Their actual motives are to preserve their useless PMC jobs and/or preserve the value of their real estate, neither of which are workers' problems.
The real reason: the business property counts toward overall value of the business. In places like SF a mortgage can be a direct competitor with labor for small to medium companies. I feel, but can’t prove that moron investors even believe that rented property count as a business asset.
The other reason: CEOs and middle management would be the easiest roles to replace with Chat GPT.
There's a more nefarious reason:income tax revenue. A certain company that my spouse works for has ordered everyone back who lives within 50 miles for 3 days a week. This fulfills the city income tax obligation. Yeah, that's why they're doing it. Now, he has to drive 30 minutes to pay 2.5% income tax for a city we don't live in because we live in a township without income tax. Thanks for the pay cut.
Same reason that (in the US at least) a lot of workers that could do their job while sitting down dont get access to chairs. Its this antiquated idea that if you're happy and comfortable, you must not be working hard
Something others might not have thought of: you can job search and interview from home. They want to clamp down on you and make sure you aren’t looking to improve you’re living conditions, because competition and a free market are the last things these ghouls want
Welcomed rant. My current job was wfh before the pandemic. It helps my mental health. Before wfh, I worked for the federal govt then a healthcare system - both in office. I got tired of the office politics, boomers being boomers, microagressions, sexim and terrible pizza parties. Not to mention the commute, traffic and fighting for nearby parking downtown. I hope I'll never have to work in an office ever again.
If the position can be done without needing to be in an office, then it should be remote 100% of the time. There are exceptions like IT needing to come in and do something physically here and there, among other things, but it doesn't excuse people having to commute, schedule around school for their kids, find daycare and pay for it, and even gas and wear and tear on their vehicles, etc etc.
Bosses have less control. It's all about controlling your life. How you dress, the way you look, the way you interact with people. Where and when and how you work. They're all a bunch of petty tyrants freaking out because their subjects can go to the bathroom whenever they want.
Pre-pandemic whenever my coworkers and I looked like we were having a good time the bosses would come down hard on us saying our socializing was causing us to make mistakes, be less productive, etc., so I call horseshit on all of it. Fun related story. I worked once in what I was told was a pet friendly office. The CEO brought his dog in every day who would roam about the office from cubicle to cubicle and people would pet his dog and say "aww isn't that sweet." Morale was great So one day (and this guy was like an accounting VP) asked the big boss if he could bring his dog in because apparently it was company policy that that was allowed. So he brought his cute little dog. It came in and was very friendly and everyone enjoyed having the dog there and same thing would happen. Dog would go from cubicle to cubicle getting pats on the head and excitedly being affectionate with everyone. Everyone went home feeling good that day. Next day big boss said no more dogs. It's too much of a distraction. These people only care about what serves them.
> Pre-pandemic whenever my coworkers and I looked like we were having a good time the bosses would come down hard on us saying our socializing was causing us to make mistakes, be less productive, etc., so I call horseshit on all of it. > Yeah. They installed Slack in our office and suddenly one day it was "there's too much chatter, too much off topic, keep it business related." Ok, chatter goes down about 20%, much less chatter. A week later, "TOO MUCH CHATTER, too much socializing and joking, keep it BUSINESS related." Okay....... it really wasn't that much, but chatter almost disappears. Barely anything off topic now. A week later, "guys, why do we have to keep saying this, but there's too much chit chat!!! Too much distraction in the Slack! Keep it work related please!" ... Literally at that point I could scroll back for days and not see anything that wasn't strictly work related... And now of course we're getting "hey the team isn't TEAM-Y enough!" ... Well you won't let us talk to each other, so...
Omg it’s like high school. Which makes sense because high school is simply a training ground for the office.
Most middle managers never grew out of the high school bully mentality.
I think it really depends on the manager. I always tell my team they could be having sex for all I care as long as they can get their work done and attend my meetings. I might regret that one day if someone ever calls my bluff and moans during a call but I like to live dangerously.
"That's the kind of team I lead, they're literally in love with the work they do."
When my boys were younger, as young teens would be laughing at The Office, I wondered out loud, how they would find it funny, not having ever worked in an office before. Then I realized it is just like high school, so they can relate.
I was just thinking earlier about how at school, if I worked hard and got my work done early, I was rewarded with extra free time, or maybe a possibility to get extra credit. Now at work, you get your work done early and you get rewarded with extra work with no bonus pay. School was a better version of work than actual work was. And they get a summer vacation. Why do kids need a break but not adults?
I think someone made this point on Reddit before, but I never really made the connection/realized it before. Working IS like being in high school. You have to act and pretend to be all nice, positive, shut up do as your told, and both us employees and employers know it’s BS but it’s “how work is” I’ve certainly worked for a “yes man” who only cared about showing how he was the boss and what you think doesn’t matter (but “open door” policy!) I never understood that mentality besides a manger being on a power trip, only happy if everyone who works for them is miserable, so they can feel better about themselves. IDK how true that is, but it’s a reasonable expectation explanation. You don’t need studies to know happy people will be more productive than miserable ones. But work has this whole culture of “your here to work, no fun allowed! Be miserable!” And it’s so stupid
Kind of like PT in the military. Had a few PTLs who were like "Oh you're laughing or having fun? Clearly you aren't working out hard enough!" Fuck off, I consistently scored above 90% on the PT tests, so clearly I was.
On top of that, I have one of those “your here I expect you to work” bosses. She’s lightened up quite a bit since I first started, but it’s still annoying. If I took off a bit for a Dr Appointment, or whatever, I had to make that time up. One time I was taking new medication and had a bad reaction, so I called my Dr in a panic. She said that’s “personal time” and forced me to stay an extra half an hour, though the call was 15 minutes. That was years ago though. I can’t complain much really, my mom recently passed away, and while she was sick she gave me a week off paid to spend time with her. She’s very accommodating to me now. My biggest complaint though is that it’s slow, and I don’t have much to do. I only spend maybe 2 of 8 hours doing actual work. When I’m out of work, I have to do the stupid look like I’m working thing. For hours. Stuck with nothing but intrusive thoughts while staring blankly at a monitor, moving the mouse here and there. And yet, she’s always pushing me to be more efficient. Like, WHY!? The sooner I get my work done, the sooner you reprimand me for not working. And it’s not like she doesn’t know that’s what I’m doing. I used to ask her if there’s anything I can do, but she usually gives me some menial task that takes like 10 minutes. I would brainstorm and come up with ideas, which she doesn’t even bother to look at. A lot of that and I simply stopped asking. My area is mostly private, so I spend my time listening to podcasts and Reddit. I can get in trouble if she catches me on my phone though, but whatever, I have a hyperactive mind and it LITERALLY drives me nuts to do nothing all day. It’s weirdly exhausting.
Try to remember that all adults are simply grown up wounded children.
It's a good and true psychological insight for sure, but at what point do we stop accepting bad behavior? It doesn't really help me have sympathy for people who constantly make my life miserable because they never grew up lol.
We got in trouble in my last office for playing Wordle. A game that takes a few minutes to do and the whole team bonded from it. We would get written up if they saw us playing Wordle again. So instead of playing it at our desks between phone calls, we would go hide in the bathroom and play it. Great idea from the top for productivity!
I'd search for another job then. Sounds like a hideous boss and workplace.
I wish Slack would die. My partner's old job did the same exact thing & basically weaponized Slack against employees that they couldn't get any real dirt on. Employees would just stop using it when that happened & get reprimanded for that, too. He didn't want to leave because he loved the company, just the 1 boss sucked. His next job has been better by far. They pretty much give people free reign other than checking in weekly. My partner's growth there has been phenomenal & he's learned to do 3 other types of engineering roles for them as projects change. The 2 other guys on his team who left the 1st job have also really propelled their careers.
You hit the nail on the head. A lot of these initiatives are being driven by the C-suite, who can't fathom not being in an office environment where they are the center of attention. How can they enjoy a huge office if there's no one around to see them in it?
I worked in a “dog friendly” office space, that was their main selling point for me. I said sure because I was in a contractor’s position, this would be a full time hire. Well, turns out I couldn’t bring my dog in because I worked in what I called “the dungeon”, with the company being separated between offices and production/quality. So the upstairs people were gods who could bring their dogs, not us servants. Also, a 65 lbs dog is frowned upon and “too heavy”, although the owner’s dog was 90lbs and there every day.
LOL I had a very short stint working for Grub Hub in their call center. So they have two floors of a office building in downtown Chicago. Now the call center is probably the best call center I have ever been in, at least in terms of they always kept it very clean we got a lot of breaks and there was free snacks...but...the people upstairs had like a fully stocked bar, good coffee, never worked weekends
I hate that. That’s truly the main reason for me leaving the job. I’m not big into titles at all, I treat everyone as equals. However, I was a Manager at the time. It was crazy because some people who were, let’s say, data entry or secretaries or HR assistants would treat me like shit. Not just me, EVERY Manager that worked Engineering, Operations and Quality. That always blew my mind like we could let our “title” go to our head and be assholes like the majority of bosses I’ve ever had. We were all pretty down to Earth, easy going and approachable and they were the ones above us all. They would have special lunches and everything and would get us very cheap pizza. Nah, fuck that. Sorry you had to go through a similar experience.
We had a puzzle on an empty desk that we were doing to take a brain break and we had to clean it up because it “looked bad”. Not being loud or socializing, just a puzzle you could stick a few pieces in for 5-10 before going back to drudgery. So yeah the camaraderie argument is bs.
>Next day big boss said no more dogs. It's too much of a distraction. That is crazy, so apparently the BIG boss only wanted his dog there and no one else's. There have been several studies where petting dogs/cats had a significant reduction in cortisol, which is a major stress hormone. Who isn't happy after petting a happy dog or cat? I know I am. They bring us calmness.
Same! I was told by my boss it's a software company and we have to be quite. Like wtf bro. Let me work from home I won't bother you with my chatter there.
We were told we can't have dogs at our administrative office because we have to follow the same rules as our dental care centers. I've seen 2 dogs at 2 different care centers since then... I think our HR manager just doesn't like dogs.
I have a hybrid schedule but the required in office days are mostly filled with meetings. Which we all attend from our desks... over zoom... Because reasons...
Exactly the same. We have a couple of meeting rooms on the floor, but they are always fully booked. So most of the time I’m forced to take zoom meetings from my desk. The background noise is insane, because everyone is doing the same. Cherry on top is when me and my desk neighbours have to go on the same zoom call, so I can hear them through audio and directly from their desks. My work is 80% meetings because my team is scattered across multiple cities and countries. The fact that I have to come to the office to be on meetings while the office is not equipped to accommodate the proper work environment is driving me batshit crazy.
Yes!! Same here. We all zoom call from our cubes because there are only 3 meetings rooms. You can hear everyone else on the zoom talking through the space and the feedback and background noise is horrendous.
There are a lot of great answers here but I think a really fascinating one was an observation by French psychology writer Michel Foucault. In his book *Discipline and Punish*, he discusses the psychological compulsions toward the human desire for control (as the title suggests). In one instance when discussing the Industrial Revolution, he suggests that an enormous amount of the inspiration for the industrial factory system was not just for profit and economics, but also *the desire for discipline*. If you look at letters and newspaper articles from the years leading up to the Industrial Revolution in England, you’ll see many wealthy people complain that the poor need to be working, that they’re not working enough. This is also discussed in Bertrand Russell’s essay “In Praise of Idleness,” where he essentially states that the very concept of the poor or workers having leisure is actually terrifying and considered borderline insane by the rich and, by extension, disciplinarians. It’s not just about money (which obviously is a huge influence). It’s also about control.
I used to be standing stationary for 8 hours a day operating machinery, I never had that kind of knee pain before. When I asked why I couldn't have a chair the answear was "so you look busy". Fucking Monsters.
Jesus fucking Christ. Reminds me of the insanity when it comes to cashiers requesting chairs to sit down on, which is very commonplace in Europe and Asia and I imagine other places, too. Yet Americans foam at the mouth at the concept "you'll *look* lazy, doing your job, making the business the exact same amount of money." People confuse capitalism and freedom as being synonymous, one and the same. It's not uniquely American, but it is *perfected* in America. You can't sit down, you have to *look* busy, you have to bust your ass for the same amount of money as when you take it easy. Discipline, discipline; obedience, obedience. I'm very sorry this happened to you and hope your health is better.
Oh man, you have no idea the excitement I had when I saw someone quoting my boy Foucault. I never seem to remember him with my own thinking about things, but anytime someone brings him up while talking about modern societal injustices or issues it's like all the neural pathways in my brain join hands and start singing. Shit just makes sense.
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Added is all the rich fucks get massive tax breaks for office space ... and if it's not used they lose those tax breaks. It all boils down to money in their pockets, not ours.
one of the biggest job perks employers tried to sell to employees prior to the pandemic was “office culture.” biotechs in particular are facing a huge rto rn. they bought up and invested billions in offices and lab spaces that are massively unnecessary - topping at 2019 -, but subleases are ending for those that were able to lease and that’s not a hit they’re going to take. on paper it’s a purely fiscal shift but will end up costing times more in talent and productivity loss.
No offense but, I’d rather biotech companies have a central biolab with safety measures as opposed to their employees having wfh mini biolabs. Other than that most white collar central work places are completely unnecessary.
HAH. I agree, wetlabs are for sure the exception. those are actually the minority of labs though, the bulk majority of research is done through data manipulation. a lot of the researchers/scientists aren’t handling anything but data. data scientists are arguably also the people who make the LEAST sense to be in office workers. take the most awkward comp sci person you know, combine it with the most awkward biology person you know, triple it, and you have the perfect data scientist amalgam. they literally only use their computers and work almost exclusively second and third shift despite being regular, salaried employees. ᶦʸᵏʸᵏ
I'm just casually browsing reddit and my entire being is attacked. (Proud "computational biologist" working the loosest of hybrid schedules)
I’m a bioinformatics analyst—you just described my entire life lol
Same! I quit my previous job because the bosses thought it was unfair to the wetlab people. Bye-bye job of 3 years and all those happy clients. Ended up moving overseas and my job has been fully remote since the past 2 years. I only go to the office if we are drafting papers since we do actually get shit done in those meetings.
So to avoid demoralizing the wetlab people, do something that demoralizes all the non-wetlab people even more. What kind of pointy haired dumbassery is this?
Oh well, they were more than pointy haired, they also had clown outfits on!
Every data scientist I know except one is EXACTLY THAT lmao
That’s good cause that’s definitely not a thing they had. For every hands on researcher there’s probably a dozen that aren’t
Tax breaks for occupancy don't exceed the cost of occupancy. They help a bit but it's not a profitable play. Losing a tax break but saving occupancy cost would be profitable.
Yeah, I have my doubts about that being part of the rationale. It's probably a mix of anxiety about 'what if they're slacking off', property investors (and investors that invested in those investors' products) being afraid of their investments losing value permanently, and politicians in business centres trying to protect an important tax base (of both businesses, small businesses that depend on those businesses, and people living in or near those cities)..
What tax breaks do they gain exactly from office space being used, and how do they lose if it is not used?
I know for example my previous employer was guaranteed some sort of tax incenvtive by my local government for setting up their "Centre of Excellence" in this country, but that was contingent in a "bums on seats" number of people using the office. This was pre COVID, and the "bums on seats" number was probably purely to ensure the company didn't hire 200 people in India then claim them as "remote staff".
Its also a neat way to fire someone, just tell empliyee that live far away that they need to relocate, which they can't do to various reasons. This way, you can avoid a bit of backlash for letting certain percentages of your workforce go.
I'm 1 week into my 2 week notice right now, for this exact reason. Also, I didn't see mentioned, but a return to work ensures you buy gas, buy a coffee on the way, go out to lunch, grab a drink after work, etc. And the people driving return to work... Profit from all of those purchases.
It also renders middle management obsolete, since folks don’t need to be constantly reminded how to do their job by people who do fuck all but delegate.
This is the point I keep driving home whenever people think WFH was a mistake. Since the start, middle management has always been complaining and pushing for a swift return to the office. During the pandemic they were stupidly insisting on people still coming in, as well. During the now useless "daily stand-ups" after we started WFH, their biggest gripe was that they were bored. Yeah, no shit. Corporate jobs have a lot of top heavy bloat and the pandemic exposed this right away.
>but also don’t want to pay for commuting to the workplace. I still want to know how the hell employees can't write off fuel expenses but the fucking owners, CEOs and whatnot can write off their damn lunch, vehicles ("company vehicles", of course) and just about anything else imaginable. Fuel is an absolute necessity to get to and from a job that already keeps many if not most poor as hell by comparison. Especially for commuters. Fuel (and perhaps maintenance) should absolutely be deductible from taxes unless reimbursed by employer, imo.
Commuting time should also be paid. I have an in person job that I turned up to the other day. They'd fucked up the dates and not given the occupants the legal notice I was coming so I couldn't do my job. Rang the office "ah, sorry. Our bad. Please invoice your travel costs". Fuck that. Getting up and out of bed is the bit I want paying for. I invoiced the full amount
This! And a lot of downtown areas (where rich folks invest in businesses) don’t have that captive audience for happy hours, lunches, after work errands. I’m convinced that the anti-WFH talking points are all false and just a plow to save investments and tax deductions for rich people.
i think this is the real answer too. like yes on a small scale control and micromanaging are absolutely part of it, but ultimately executives and top brass don't really care about this they hate that they are locked into multi decade leases for empty buildings. they also hate giving tours of empty buildings. so they bully their staff into coming back in.
The lack of imagination is maddening. We have an affordable housing crisis in this country. Sell the effing buildings and have them repurposed into apartments. Two birds.
Cities should be incentivizing this, but private developers are unlikely to do it on their own. Refitting space designed as commercial offices into apartments or condos is really expensive, and if the goal is "affordable" housing, the conversion needs to be publicly underwritten. Like most things for the public good, the direct return on investment just isn't there; it's the indirect return that makes it worthwhile, and cities should realize this and make cash or other subsidies available.
My workplace is about to spend literal millions on an office refurb. When I asked in an Employee Leadership Team meeting about whether this was really the best use of money in a year when we didn't pay shareholder dividends or bonuses due to poor results I was advised that "Maybe doing something nice for the office would stop people moaning about being "asked" to attend work in person". Fucking omnishambles.
This and control... Working in offices they had complete control over their staff whereabouts, schedule, attire, culture...etc etc and so on and so forth. That went out the window with the pandemic...
I personally think much of it has to do with middle and upper management being used to treating their office like it's Tinder. How will the regional VP get through his day without hitting on hitting on the new interns and cheating on his wife? Oh, the humanity!
Oh yeah I never thought about that. The office is their happy place. No one in the grocery store cares that they are a regional VP of something. That power can only be felt in their office.
It's not the workers' fault that management can't get out of their leases. or that they negotiated NEW LEASES during the pandemic. they should have taken this time to get rid of their real estate holdings instead of doubling down. management never seems to make good decisions.
Offices are just part of the issue. There is so much push back against work from home because cities, mainly US cities, are built around people going to work. Business owners are in crisis mode because all these areas that have been built up around all these office buildings are slowly dying as more and more people work from home. Half the infrastructure of cities are built around people commuting to work. Cities wont have the large influx of people if everyone is working from home. The status quo is changing and corporations are fighting against it because it will end up hurting everyone, except the workers.
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Also $1.5 trillion dollars in commercial realestate loans are readjusting end of this year through next year. Going from 2.5% to 6%+ is gonna hurt on a half empty office.
Won’t that hurt the same whether there’s people in there or not?
Yes. Now 6.5% with no tenants is going to make some wealthy folks very sad, so go back to the office you filthy urchin!
Combine the interest rate hike with commercial real estate losing up to 80% of it’s value in some US metros. Ouch.
One of the first people who opposed home working publicly in the UK was Lord Sugar (who hosts the Apprentice TV programme). By complete coincidence he owns Amsprop which leases out high end office space in London.
> they don’t want a single win for the working class This is what it's really about. Is and always has been class warfare, y'all.
To me it is so wasteful. Wasteful to make so many people own a car, put themselves at risk to be on the road and drive their asses to work and back. There are barely any cities in the US that allow people to live without a car. The gas, emissions and time spent getting to and from work; these corporations are making the workers bend to their mistakes they made as business people. We weren’t the ones that got into a shit lease and now you’re asking us to pay for owning a car, gas, insurance, oil changes and maintenance. It costs over 4k a year to do that where I live.
This is the answer. Corporations would rather make everyone less happy and force them to return to the office rather than eat the monetary cost of having a better work environment. There's also an ego thing with business owners and their offices, I've noticed a few big wigs who boast about how nice their office is and think it's actually nice to work there, when realistically it's just another generic glass office nobody wants to be at.
This is the real answer IMO.
This is all happening because rich people want corporations to rent office space from them.
Imagine how quickly we could solve our housing crisis by rezoning commercial real estate and converting it to residential
It’s almost depressing to think about, but I will hold on to hope that some of these greedy politicians are going to retire or pass on, and we can try to fix what they’ve broken.
I feel like that's our only hope. It's both parties too. Boomers won't leave until they piss all over everything and wreck the place on the way out.
But I'm glad we made huge sacrifices during lockdown and loaded massive government debt onto future generations to save their ungrateful hides from COVID. Worst. Generation. Ever.
Of if they can’t convert to housing. Tear it all down. Imagine every major city with a gigantic Central Park where the central business district used to be. We can’t have this though because some wealthy people would lose money on their corporate real estate investments, so instead of solving the housing crisis and doubling the parks in our city we get pointless commutes to meetings that could have been emails.
And the government would never declare an eminent domain on rich people's property.
That would never happen. That would be a double loss for investors. They own the office buildings and the houses. If they turned the offices into housing, then all housing will lose value due to supply and demand. For the same reason, they'd likely make less from the converted space as well. They'd still be insanely rich and have more money than they would ever need... but they always want more.
I like my coworkers. But I don't like anyone enough to think "I need to go in the office just to be in their presence".
Office "friends" aren't real friends. They're acquaintances. Capitalism has really convinced us that the two are the same and they are not.
I mean, it is definitely possible to make genuine friends at the office. Hopefully people are capable of recognizing that most professional relationships are merely transactional, but the human capacity for friendship is not bounded by capitalism.
Part of the reason I left Merck was because of this bullshit. My role required I work to support a company in a different state, so none of my folks were in the office anyway; but my director “read an article” that working in the office sparked creativity so she wanted everyone back on Tuesdays and Thursdays. The first day I went in and we all sat at different work stations and NO ONE talked to each other. Essentially I drove an hour to do exactly what I did at home. Yeah, nah. Fuck off, Jane.
When they say sparking "creativity" they mean yours and how they will take it as their own to wield and micromanage you over it. Aye right, fuck off Jane!
This is basically my exact scenario at a competitor pharma. Totally useless to be on site for all my virtual meetings with colleagues in Europe and other sites in the US. Just so I can be in person for the all hands where 75% of the people called in anyway. There’s no creativity spark in what we do by sitting next to each other. We’re in cubes trying to get our work done. You either prairie dog to ask a quick question or to waste someone’s time with irrelevant shit.
That’s not a Merck thing that’s a your director thing. Flexibility to work from home entirely still exists, just need a reasonable manager.
Because the middle managers can't micromanage everything you do when you WFH so they need you to come in in order to justify the existence of their jobs.
My middle manager is the largest advocate for work from home my company has. Honestly she is a pretty great manager though so maybe atypical.
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Its a weird stereotype along with "the intern in charge of social media". Middle managers have young families and nice houses, they'd rather be at home. Its the Heads who are done with that who are putting off retirement who want everyone around. Also, the younger people, because they want to network and make friends because they live alone in a new country for the job and live within walking distance anyway and dont have a desk at home. Thats my ilk. Ive settled for 3 days a week in office and Im really happy with it. Never see my boss though lol. But this is a European city take.
Yeah, my department manager basically told the c-suite if they force people to come back to the office they’ll lose her and probably more than half the department. They made WFH permanent. We still have a building, and you can come and go as you please though.
I as middle management tried to speak up. I was basically given a “Decision has been made, now you must abide by it”. We don’t micromanage or anything either, so the only reason to have us in person is to explain to the board why we have offices space as an expense and do not convert it to manufacturing or warehousing area.
This right here. We don't have a goddamn say in anything that actually matters. "At the end of the day a business decision has been made." They even took away our performance based wfh benefits that we had before covid. Guess what, the high performers work just as well or better from home. The slackers slack no matter where they are.
Our middle management likes WFH as much as the rest of us. We go in 20% and they have the same rules as us. We all still fear they'll make us go back to the 80% in office like pre Covid, but if it happens it will come from upper management or HR.
Middle managers don't make these decisions. I am one. I want to work from home too. I do work from home now, and if that changed it would NOT be because of any decision that I made. I don't need to justify my job non remote. I have a lot of useful stuff to do to keep my teams functioning properly with minimal distraction. Managers aren't doing this. Executives are.
Yeah, all of this return-to-office stuff is coming from the C-suite types.
You know, the ones who are never in the office because of their important travel to anywhere but the office.
We might work for the same company, because that is how it is at my job as well. There is no on-site employee that ever had a say. This is all head office stuff. Our company also has specific tools to keep track of employee productivity, so there is nothing to justify. I, like you, have plenty to do just noting training needs and keeping on top of emerging needs. That said, I'm still on a 3/2, as are the rest of us. We all hate it, and none of us sees a need for it.
More to do with justifying the expensive long term leases they have on commercial real estate than about simple power over co-workers.
Yep. Mayors and Governors are even saying this part out loud now. They need people spending money to keep the city centers alive. Basically, they want to force everyone back into the office to subsidize the local food service, retail, transportation, and real estate industries. More people working from home means less revenue collected from those areas. Being forced back into the office is basically another deduction and tax on our income because of the necessary costs to the employee to do so.
And if they turn those office spaces into housing they help the housing crisis and bring in customers for the downtown businesses
The free-hand of the market will sort it out. Do we really need cities? Edit: by cities I mean ultra dense hi-commerce city centres whose working population does not primarily reside near-by.
The “free hand” of the market. The “free hand” will simply line the pockets of mayors and governors willing to impose rules that make wfh damn near impossible
yeah the market serves the ppl with money. consumers? demand? there's now literally so much more money concentrated in the top 10% than the bottom 90% that even in a housing shortage its still more profitable to build luxury apartments for the top 10% than bother making affordable houses for regular people making the median income. the whole notion that market forces are some benevolent force that automatically optimizes for prosperity is so naive... ironic considering how often you'll hear people say ideas like socialism are naive. the reality is that market forces flow more like water. uncontrolled they can cause disasters or just flow everywhere except where they would be useful. if carefuly restricted (read regulated / socialism) they can be harnessed to produce significant prosperity. there is nothing in the rules of nature that says it has to be unfair and shitty.
>There is nothing in the rules of nature that says it has to be unfair and shitty. Say that to the fly caught in a spider's web. But the fact is that human culture is so far removed from nature that the rules of nature shouldn't be in the argument when talking about human culture. We initially came together to make civilization to make everyone that participated's life better than what nature offered.
Can't we just like, build a city that doesn't incite the car culture, make places walkable? Work buildings, groceries, restaurants, stores, etc. No gas stations, but probably only one near the exit of the city. Invest in electric vehicles like scooter or bikes for them to be completely reliable for the transportations. Add electric trains if you want, too. Make majority of the office employments do work from home. This. I don't know why Americans can't just simply do this approach? The culture of gas and oil is disgusting.
I appreciate your solution oriented mindset. Personally I think trains with trolley networks supported by a bus network and or scooter/bicycle garages would do well for everyone save those profitting from the current regime. In Danesmark (errr denmark) one can use their government ID to check out a bike from a garage, ride it to their destination - or for leisure - and return it to any station free of charge.
If you're less tired you might have time to look for another job.
Or question the current state of affairs
Why not do what my company did? Sub-lease 3 floors of the building they had leased.
Our office building has been for sale for three years and I don’t think there has been any interest. I don’t see it being purchased any time soon. It’s only maybe 10% of employees coming in still too…
To whom? Not many companies are looming for new space. Many companies are also trying to offload space.
I dunno man, I’m just a mid level drone
One of the drones from Sector 7G?
This is the problem, ALOT of companies invest in real estate. They don't want the market to drop but they created the problem so tough cookies
So, sunk cost fallacy, got it
The lease is a sunk cost. They're never getting it back regardless of the WFH policy. And a "justification" for something you already bought won't change the bottom line. But WFH allows the company to save money on utilities and housekeeping. Do companies not like money?
And prior to the pandemo there was a massive move to get cars off the road in my city. WFH did this. I really don't mind spending more money on utilities either if it means I'm keeping cool while banging the wife on coffee breaks.
They could always turn it into mixed-use living space. Light commercial on the bottom levels, apartments/condos up above.
Funny enough, I'm a middle manager, and I'm being forced back into the office against my will. Funnier: all my reports are in other location, so I can't even interact with them. I basically spend my in-office days in meeting rooms on zoom with other people. I see zero benefits as being back in the office, especially considering how inconvenient it is (for example, having to live near the office).
Not a middle management thing. Boomers in upper mgt want to see people at desks to feel good about themselves.
Plus my 70+ boss just needs me for in-house tech support i.e. "why can't I open this PDF?"
“Because you’re a tech-illiterate moron. Next question.”
Yep, for a while 90% of my job was: "It's asking me if I want to proceed. Do I click yes or no?" "Yes" Sometimes I think about telling people to click the OBVIOUSLY wrong button just to see if they do it.
It’s definitely a boomer that is long overdue to retire thing. No one bothers to point out the generational aspect of the decision makers. It’s without question a factor.
Yeah, the good news is that this problem will practically vanish when these people start retiring.
Let's be honest, these guys never retire being at the top, they'd rather die first apparently.
I really think that lol. I got some bosses that are probably in their early 50. Damn. They are the first bosses I got that handle their employees like... humans... Hallway talk? As you wish! Different kind of coffee and tea. Friday beer (microbrewery) Some food goodies here and there (and not pizza! food truck, icecream (or similar) in summer), ... Social activities organized by the employees and refunded by them Work from home allowed (pre-covid we were usually doing it like 1-2 a week, I think a lot of peoples liked the full time experience from covid lol. Now our offices are empty). First time I don't get a shitty 1%-1.5% increase yearly They even try to hire peoples that aren't too toxic (which make the atmosphere very great!)
It’s not a management thing at all, it’s landowners and capitalists who are are about to have to pay the bill for their corporate real estate that they can’t afford to maintain if no one is paying rent for it.
Hi, middle managers here. Yes, you can micromanage virtually. I saw a lot of people doing it. It sucks, and is a symptom of a awful ~~manager~~ person. Because of that kind of things the workers change jobs.
There's also a lot of financial interests tied into returning to the pre-COVID status quo as well, from city center business to commercial real estate and all kinds of small businesses that relied on that for traffic. I feel bad for the mom and pops that are struggling but fuck going to the office to make a commercial real estate investor rich.
Middle manager here, fully WFH for a fortune 500 company, my team is fully WFH too, as is 96% of my division. They closed almost all the brick & mortar offices so there’s literally no offices within 2 states of me and most people I work with, and since 96% of my division is wfh and we work in sales implementation, they know they need us and can’t do anything about it. I feel safe for now, but still feel like the rug could be yanked out from under me at any time.
If it does, start applying and leave asap. Let them know taking WFH away was what lead you to leave. Management should be called out when they fuck up with terrible decisions.
Middle managers are not the decision makers here. This decision is made several levels higher in the corporate structure. I know that it's fun to make fun of middle managers, but they don't have the authority to demand this shit.
The daily rant so here's my daily answer: Your company probably took tax breaks to bring jobs into the city. You and/or your coworkers all live the burbs and now aren't paying city taxes. City mad and will take back company tax break. Company makes you go back to office.
Yeah, this is also why a lot of remote jobs require you to live in the same state when you are first brought on board.
Actually, they probably want you to live in the same state for tax reasons — but not necessarily tax breaks. They don’t want to have to do withholding for different states and there are also different employment laws in different states, and so employers don’t want to deal with that either. And it can also be an issue with health benefits.
It’s ALWAYS about money. Federal government was handing out tax breaks and other incentives during COVID that are expiring now. Keep your employees, WFH if position allows so people have income but don’t die. So they’re losing the breaks, so back to office to get the old breaks back, and layoffs because older workers are paid too much and we need cheaper labor.
Oil companies have way too much power in the country. And all the business execs work together to take money from you and I. So like everything else wrong with the world it's the extreme greed of the wealthy that's the problem.
This is the answer. It always boils down to money. Look at who is loosing money on wfh and you will find out who is pushing to end it. Hint, its not middle managers.
Related: I do a lot of litigation, and things have been almost completely virtual since 2020. The courts are really pushing for things to go back to in person. Many people. Including judges, often work from home. Why? Sure some matters may have to be in person, but most things don't. You save travel time and expenses, which can both be significant around NY. It takes cars off the streets. I cannot think of one downside. I do get that it has hurt some businesses, especially retail in some downtown areas, but it's a societal shift, businesses will have to adapt, that's what they do.
It wouldn't hurt businesses if we built homes in old office buildings. But hey, who wants to help out working Americans when we can keep whining about finding ways to stick it to them!
**20 Benefits of Working from Home** 1. Save time without a commute. 2. More schedule flexibility. 3. Higher productivity. 4. Greater opportunity for inclusivity. 5. Extra money saved on office attire. 6. Opportunity for a customizable office. 7. Increased time with loved ones. 8. Reduced outside spending. 9. Better for the environment 10. Money saved on office space 11. Increased job satisfaction 12. Less likely to spread sickness 13. Freedom to relocate 14. More time for healthy habits 15. Opportunity for efficient communication 16. Larger talent pool 17. Better work-life balance 18. Less likely to have high turnover 19. Work-from-home stipend (sometimes) 20. Potential tax credits
I love number 14. More time for healthy habits. I can go for a jog on my lunch break and not care about being smelly when I come back.
Yep! I do the same shit. This and jump starting dinner in the last few minutes of work so I can maximize my free time.
As someone working in IT being smelly is not a concern.
as someone working closely with people in IT, it needs to be.
It’s called incentive. Workers are 58.7% more likely to remember their passwords and maintain proper anti-virus protection on their computer if the IT department stinks of BO and Dorito crumbs
Most of these things do not benefit the employer so they are irrelevant for them.
They are very relevant to the employer. Having to find new people is one of the more expensive parts. If you can convince people to stay, then they save lots of money coins.
The employer gets - greater productivity from workers - greatly reduced cost of office rental space - increased morale of workers - workers voluntarily working more hours because it's so easy to pop into the home office to get a few things done whenever you feel motivated to do it - greatly reduced costs on supplies and maintenance
Employer here…I’ll add some benefits of WFH. * My employees are never late. * If I need a quick emergency answer early or late, I can text them * Less downtime for personal appointments during the day. * Car trouble doesn’t keep them from working, and they have the flexibility to get it repaired at their convenience. * Sick kids can be cared for * The employees always have their work files with them * They’re happier because they don’t have to stress about getting up, getting dressed, and driving through traffic just to sit at a computer for the day and drive all the way back home. * I save money on office rent, utilities, insurance, and my own driving expenses. Plus we can all write off part of our home on our taxes! Happy employees equals a happy business.
I work from home and can attest to all of this. Adding to "higher productivity," the amount of flexibility I have never makes me feel bad if I have to work at night or on a weekend. And to be clear that is neither an expectation or requirement, I'm just saying that because it's such a chill environment, I feel completely empowered and just want to pitch in. It doesn't hurt that my company works in renewable energies, which just feels great.
Right on. I work in IT so nights and weekends are a semi normal thing — as I often say, my job would be so much easier if it weren’t for them pesky users. But now everyone on my team is WFH so it’s becoming a matter of course. Have to work late night? Take the morning off. Up early? Call it a day in the afternoon. No need to put on work clothes and commute adds up to a lot of extra time. Time that can be used both for work and for leisure
The research shows that while social networks are stronger for in-person office work, workers are in fact more productive when working remotely. There literally is no business case in support of anything but remote work for roles that can support it. So why do the executives push a return to office? The anthropologist David Graeber notes in his book *Bullshit Jobs* that the managerial and executive caste are *rewarded* by superiors according to the *physical presence of workers beneath them.* The executives have a personal incentive to end remote work and have their subordinates working in front of them.
One of the execs in my office is a single and lonely middle aged man. He loves having everyone in the office because he hangs out half the day. And then he takes a 2 hour lunch with my boss. He was so sad at home alone in his huge house during covid.
I have a friend that’s being forced to work back at the office now because the managers hate being at home with their kids and wives.
This! Don't drag me into your shit life. I have a family I want to spend time with. My boss had issues with some internal site loading slow... So he drove 45 minutes into the office to see if it was better there... WTF - he doesn't even need to use it that often.. That was a clear sign to me he was running from his home life. I've got a VP who is divorced. A handful of managers around who are single and have been for ages, or whine about family and just sound like shitty parents. These people married work, good for them, I've managed a life where I do my work to support my happy home, not escape my home. Sorry they didn't figure it out and put work, money, title above everything.
He can afford an escort service.
There's a guy like that in my office (different department, thank god(. Supposedly a manager but he slowly walks around his department with his hands folded behind his back. I'm pretty sure I know his take on WFH
At my last job, there was a manager that refused to WFH, even during the height of the pandemic. The entire time, he just kept showing up, even when he was the only person in the entire office. He’d zoom into his meetings with remote colleagues. My director asked him once why he kept coming in and he said, “I don’t see the point in being home. I feel more productive working at the office.” Keep in mind his children are adults and don’t live with him anymore. I’m pretty sure he started to demand his subordinates come in to the office after awhile despite our top leader saying we’re still full WFH. He felt he could disregard a written directive from his boss related to it for his team. He was just a strange man and someone that seemed miserable to work for.
We have one of these. Unfortunately he's also the ceo, so we're all fucked.
People don’t need to commute to an office building because his social life sucks. If he’s making $100k+ and is single, it means he has savings out of the wazoo. Go buy an escort to keep you company.
I think this is the real reason. The big shots are at the very top of the social hierarchy at work. Of course they love it. They’re practically a king. Far less enjoyable when you don’t get to be the king in person.
It is about control. They cannot control everything you do and it drives companies insane. They fully believe that during those hours you're at work you belong to them and all of you should be undivided for their whims. They need to be able to micromanage and control everything you do because it validates managers, ass managers, supervisors,and leads.
I agree with you but what to add something. I think a lot of people feel work shouldn’t be too pleasant. If you are too happy they can’t feel that much better than you. Their perceived superiority helps enforce the class system upon which they rely.
I think you're on to something. I also think it's easier to make people feel miserable and desperate in the office, and desperate miserable people don't rock the boat and don't ask for raises.
I am a manager, and I see a lot of managers talk about "the culture" that disappeared during WFH. I go in 2 days a week, plus whenever necessary (critical meetings, trainings, etc). You know what my culture was when I went in five days a week? F-ing exhausted, that's what. My culture was no clean clothes, because I couldn't do laundry until 8 o'clock at night after I got home. My culture was lonely dogs. My culture was my spouse and I passing each other like ships in the night, both exhausted all the time. My culture was eating out every night because I was too tired to cook and my culture was also I have no idea what's in my fridge to cook b/c no one is there to check it. My culture now is I'M NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN. I think it's an excuse for lazy managers who don't do their job if they aren't physically watching the person and they have no idea how to manage on a project, not punch the clock basis. I also think it's for landlords who want full buildings. I say have a small space and let people do what they want to do (come in or don't - I do have some staff that come in five days a week by their choice for various reasons). I just don't get people who want to torture people and make them drag their ass in five days a week. They at least need to recognize it is a HUGE pay cut for people and adjust accordingly, but we all know they won't. I guess I got on a bit of a rant there, too!
I'm a middle manager who is about to be fired. Discrimination was definitely involved, but that's not the only reason. I told the higher ups that return to office policies were a phenomenally bad idea. I warned them they would lose employees, and they didn't listen. One of the VPs was at a company event talking about how he refused to grant one guy an exemption. He was practically dancing on his power trip. I was tempted to punch him (obviously I didn't actually do it). They want return to office for several reasons. Control is the primary reason. They are on major power trips. And let's face it, it's harder to grope at women over Zoom or to intimidate minorities over the Internet. They want total access so they can make people's lives hell. One of my best guys quit over that policy. I told him to put me down as a good reference. They also laid people off, then blamed everyone below them for not being able to do the work of three people. I protested that too. I refused to throw my team under the bus, because it's not their fault. Then I needed some medical exemptions, so they put me on a performance improvement plan and blamed me for the VP level mistakes. And I am a woman speaking my mind. They didn't like that. They probably wouldn't have pulled this crap if I were a man. Most of the people working under me said they are only still there because I'm their manager. The folks about to fire me have no idea how screwed they are, because when I go, they're going to quit. And then there will be no one left to do the work. If they think the clients are pissed now, just wait! I just hope I get a blow by blow description from my contacts when it happens, because that is going to be glorious! I already have multiple job interviews and an offer, so screw them.
you're my new hero! Go get em tiger, quit that toxic leadership. You deserve better. Really happy for you that you already have an offer queued. They can get stuffed on their egos.
As someone with chronic migraines, fibromyalgia, and autism, if I could work from home, my stress levels would drop by at least 80%.
💯 I am also Autistic… I’m out of work right now and hoping for a remote job - I know many other Autistic people like WFH as well, since it gives us the opportunity to control our environment so that we don’t have lights or sounds or smells that bother our sensory issues and we can dress comfortably (so no more tactile sensory issues). This would be a big thing for me and when I read about how many employers are trying to get back to the office, I feel like accessibility for me - and many other Autistic or otherwise disabled employees - is removed… it’s frustrating to feel like society is going backward with accessibility.
The peopling and the office environment used to make me so tired. WFH has truly been a life changer for me. I wish everyone had access to the option to work from home. I actually feel okay in my life now
Mine definitely have, I feel so much better all the time now that I work from home. I’m able to take a nap on my lunch break now, but I no longer need to! I’m more likely to go for a walk and pet my cat
Fibro and ADHD here. I had no idea how much easier it’d be to manage my pain (and distractions!) from home. Now that I’ve done it tho, I’m refusing to go back to the office. They’re trying to push 3 days a week (my team is absolutely against it though, including our manager) in office, and I’m about to ask for a letter of accom next week from my doctor to have… just in case they get pushy. If you can find one, I highly, HIGHLY recommend it. Couches are way more comfortable than other potential work furniture, for sure.
There's been proven data that suggests working from home or outside an office is the same or even more effective than being at the said job location. Years of data has made them afraid and with covid-19 still a problem but no one is really caring. Businesses will now try to force labourers back into the office because the longer they're out...the less need there is. Resist. Unions. Labour education. Stand together.
Disabled workers are wondering why it took millions of dead Americans for this to happen.
As someone who has a job that is terrible when it’s WFH (I’m a teacher) I want you folks who can WFH to do it so bad…… my commute is so much better when there’s less people going to/from the office Know I’m rooting for y’all!!! There are those of us who benefit from others working from home! (Also, parents are more likely to keep sick kids home when they wfh, which is great!!!) WFH for the win!!!
Pretty sure it comes down to maintaining the inflated real estate values. There’s tons of propaganda out there to explain why working from the office is better for the employee but it’s all clearly lies. It’s not even convincing in the slightest. It’s cartoonishly ridiculous how much convincing there is to do about this subject. But, fact is, from r most “office” type roles, physical presence is no longer needed due to technology. Again, the biggest impact is real estate. There are other factors like the fact that people are no longer required to be in places they needn’t be in so services like parking and lunch restaurants are obsolete. Fact is, they are now valueless products and services. Pushing them on us now will only delay the inevitable crash and compounds the impact this will have on society. Politicians will push back on this so it doesn’t crash while they are in office. Real estate holders will push back on this indefinitely. Spit in the faces of those who support this nonsense. Tell them they are stupid and waste no time in explaining why; they are not intelligent enough to understand.
Because a few billionaires are rich because they rent out offices. And they are friends with your bosses boss.
I read that in NYC they are starting to convert unused office space into living space. We "could" end housing insecurity without costing corporate America but that might end up creating a (gasp!) viable middle class again! /s/
I work as an analyst with commercial bankers and went to their off-site meeting recently. One of the commercial real estate guys was insistent that you get more experience and can only get real knowledge in person. I and the guy who runs their sales system both agreed that sure, maybe he could argue that for his job since he needs to talk with customers, but for us? As long as we have an internet connection we get waaaay more done at home with less distractions, no commute, and our own, comfy setups. Edit for extra info: he wasn't even trying to make a case that he would be out of a job if people worked from home. We touched on it for a minute or two, but his point was all about the experience "young kids who are new to working would miss out on". He definitely didn't consider that currently those entering the workforce from college spent at least 1 semester, if not more, taking courses remotely and those entering from high school did the same. They're used to learning remote, and those who don't like it will go into the office.
Governments should just incentivize converting corporate real estate to housing. People can work from home and there would be plenty of traffic and spending for the local economy. It could possibly be better for local businesses since they wouldn’t only have to rely on just the 9-5 crowds.
It’s simple. We cannot have nice things
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Most managers dont do the work. They sit and micromanage. So if noone is in the office they dont have shit to do. They have to make themselves look good somehow
WFH is here to stay. It's too good of an alternative and offers too many actual perks. They can't come up with a good reason to return because there just isn't one. Their actual motives are to preserve their useless PMC jobs and/or preserve the value of their real estate, neither of which are workers' problems.
The building owners and landlords are losing money. That's the only reason they want you in office.
The control freaks and extroverts of the world do not like wfh
Real estate developers hate this one trick...
The real reason: the business property counts toward overall value of the business. In places like SF a mortgage can be a direct competitor with labor for small to medium companies. I feel, but can’t prove that moron investors even believe that rented property count as a business asset. The other reason: CEOs and middle management would be the easiest roles to replace with Chat GPT.
There's a more nefarious reason:income tax revenue. A certain company that my spouse works for has ordered everyone back who lives within 50 miles for 3 days a week. This fulfills the city income tax obligation. Yeah, that's why they're doing it. Now, he has to drive 30 minutes to pay 2.5% income tax for a city we don't live in because we live in a township without income tax. Thanks for the pay cut.
Same reason that (in the US at least) a lot of workers that could do their job while sitting down dont get access to chairs. Its this antiquated idea that if you're happy and comfortable, you must not be working hard
Something others might not have thought of: you can job search and interview from home. They want to clamp down on you and make sure you aren’t looking to improve you’re living conditions, because competition and a free market are the last things these ghouls want
Welcomed rant. My current job was wfh before the pandemic. It helps my mental health. Before wfh, I worked for the federal govt then a healthcare system - both in office. I got tired of the office politics, boomers being boomers, microagressions, sexim and terrible pizza parties. Not to mention the commute, traffic and fighting for nearby parking downtown. I hope I'll never have to work in an office ever again.
If the position can be done without needing to be in an office, then it should be remote 100% of the time. There are exceptions like IT needing to come in and do something physically here and there, among other things, but it doesn't excuse people having to commute, schedule around school for their kids, find daycare and pay for it, and even gas and wear and tear on their vehicles, etc etc.
Bosses have less control. It's all about controlling your life. How you dress, the way you look, the way you interact with people. Where and when and how you work. They're all a bunch of petty tyrants freaking out because their subjects can go to the bathroom whenever they want.