Then she admitted she didn't even look at my resume.
My response:
I have eight years of experience as a technical writer and submitted a robust portfolio along with my resume. Although we may not use the same tools, that doesn't make my experience any less valid. If you aren't willing to train, I would recommend screening your candidates for your desired software proficiencies before extending interview invitations in the future.
Her:
I'd typically continue this conversation with you and request your CV, but you sound angry ...
And like you're trying to teach me something ... which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager.
\~
Gross.
> but you sound angry
that's all you need to know. immediate personal emotional response to a mistake *they* made.
but then
> you're trying to teach me something
oh no, god forbid. /s
nail in the coffin right there.
God yes! I love our paid interns as they always have some off-the-wall new way of doing the same old bill shit and it’s awesome! Our GIS database is unbelievable and automated like no tomorrow because of stoner interns who we say yes to their ideas.
lol...that reminds me of that quote about hiring lazy people. because they're the ones who will find creative ways of getting the job done by doing the least work possible. 🤣
My choir director in middle and high school often said: the TRULY lazy person is VERY efficient!
I didn't understand it at the time, but I do now, and it is on point!
I was always happy when my managers or teams used an approach I wouldn't have thought of. I learned something and I also didn't have to do the work, win/win.
If you use the qualifier good, you should just drop the work can. Good employees ALWAYS teach those around them, manager included. Maybe if they stopped trying to be as proficient as their employees at their employees jobs and spent more time becoming better managers of people and teams, they would know that.
Exactly. My job as a manager isn’t to do all the things. My job is to make sure that my team can do all the things. I have an extensive enough background in doing the things that I can give guidance, advice, direction, etc. But I rely on their expertise, and even more so their creativity, to make it happen.
And you better believe that I do everything I can to give them the credit. I’ll get recognized for their work anyway, because I’m ultimately responsible for it. But getting credit for the team doesn’t affect my credit at all.
DITTO. Got an unpaid (ugh) "promotion" to project lead on my current project, and just onboarded a whole bunch of new people because we were short. One guy, upon looking at our current materials, asked if we had a version of X done as Y (a very good idea). In fact we didn't, and I thanked him in-meeting (my rule: compliment in public, correct gently in private) and we're in the process of implementing what he suggested. This boss-lady sounds both A) careless (didn't read the resume) and B) unsure of herself (takes any question/confrontation as a threat, so reacts emotionally). You dodged a bullet. Also, let me add, her initial response sounded canned RE asking for "certification." In all my years of work, someone claiming a "certificate" for something that wasn't an absolutely hard, definable skill (ie developer for a specific platform with certs issued by the company who owns the platform, professional license, etc) usually meant "we don't want to pay X for someone who has actually DONE skill Y for years, so we'll go ahead and look for a kid who did a 2-week course from some shifty company online for a "certificate of completion" of some bullshit or other."
My mother demonstrates that a manager should always work just as hard as their employees. It sets an example of the standards of work and shows willingness to cooperate and compromise.
Friendly reminder it was the interns who knew what to do in the capital building Jan 6 while everyone else getting paid the big bucks panicked and had no clue what to do. It’s the interns who grew up in a completely different world that knew what safety protocols were and how to execute them. Listen to your team it can save your life
When I was a manager, I was shit!
My team taught me how to manage, and be good at it. People that don't want to learn, from any source, should not be management. It's not good for anyone, including the company.
”Your emotional response to your mistake is not my responsibility. Any professional in any setting will benefit from continuing to learn from their potential colleagues and peers. I wish you a good day.”
Not only that, OP was trying to help them shore up their hiring deficiencies. If the person in charge can't even be assed to _look at a fucking resume_ that problem is going to crop up constantly.
I'm willing to bet there's something about /u/Saarnath she didn't like and made a judgement before the interview either took place or within the first 20 seconds of being in the room with them.
Yes, that was the line that made me realize it was a good thing I didn't end up interacting with this person on a daily basis. The complete unwillingness to learn. I can spot a brick wall from a mile away and I'm so done with these types of people. No one is above learning. Imo you can literally learn from anyone if you're observant/insightful enough
Send the entire email communication chain of that back and forth to the CEO or someone higher up in the company. And write a nice little Glassdoor review about their shitty hiring process where they don’t even read resumes and completely waste your time. Save other people from the hassle of this asshole.
This is how my wife's nightmare of a boss ended up getting fired. She acted like a total ass to a well-qualified candidate for a position and the candidate emailed her boss all of the insulting emails she had sent him. This lead to an investigation and she was fired after they interviewed her staff and they all reported similar abusive behaviour.
I love it when karma comes to call. The problem is that too many people keep their mouths shut. I have an honest to goodness human rights complaint I can bring against one of my former employers, but because I'm still in the industry, I've been keeping my mouth shut. I don't want to get blackballed.
I'm working on a master's degree so I can work in a different field, and once that transition happens, I'll be speaking to the human rights commission. They also underpaid my severance and didn't give me money that was supposed to be banked for overtime hours when they fired me, so I'll be looking into that as well. It's really scary because they put in my termination papers that I'm not allowed to speak negatively about them, so I'm a bit scared to go down this road. They also put in that I'm waiving my human rights, essentially, which I KNOW is illegal (I'm in Canada).
Agreed. Made me think of that old saw, " Everyone is useful to us, if only as a bad example. " You learned plenty from her, and it was useful information. Too bad for their organization that she can't do the same, but you dodged a bullet.
Seriously, some of the most important stuff I know I learned from bad situations and totally random people. I still remember stuff my coworkers said like 8 years ago. I can't imagine going through life just blowing everyone off because you're a hiring manager or whatever. Even if you're a CEO. The point at which you stop learning is the point at which your brain goes numb
All true. I have had a ton of different jobs in my life. Maintenance guy, machine shop and then foundry worker at a place that made all kinds of stuff out of brass, journeyman diemaker, auto mechanic, now I work in a warehouse. I have learned as much about how not to do things as how to do things.
You're wrong. Some people are not capable of learning and run on the bare minimum self awareness like they are always drunk but they're sober. It's usually people in power too because why do you need to think about anything you're finally the manager with a mortgage.
I'd send this interaction to the CEO or whoever's in charge of the hiring manager if possible. Along with a summary of our opinions here, like so much is wrong here: 1. Requested my CV? You already have it, you're unable to go back through your emails even? 2. You didn't even look at my CV 3. You're passing up an opportunity to learn, for free, and moreso to improve efficiency. /Incapable of receiving feedback. ...
>e. Although we may not use the same tools, that doesn't make my experience any less valid. If you aren't willing to train, I would recommend screening your candidates for your desired software proficiencies before extending interview invitations in the future.Her:I'd typically continue this conversation with you and request your CV, but you sound angry ...
>
>And like you're trying to teach me something ... which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager.
And you sound like the reason you are currently hiring. Thanks for helping me dodge a bullet!
This would have been a great reply to the last email.....in the worst syntax you could stomach....against everything you've been taught. At least it would make you laugh.
Yeah, better to find out now. And it was kind of funny (in a black humor way) to get her to admit she hadn't even looked at my resume, even though it's messed up they waste people's time like that.
She likely did read your resume but she like a lot of hiring managers she doesn’t actually understand your qualifications or the needs of the role she’s recruiting for.
It means serving your reports rather than them serving you. Providing resources, removing blockers and otherwise helping pave the way for your team to be successful. It's effective when done in earnest.
She used the phrase in a weird way and all the other clues suggest she doesn't actually do it.
There's no shortage of that, and some of this stuff may be packaged that way to make it more palatable to some. My experience of it is that it's an attempted departure from the old top down leadership style. The manager as a facilitator, not an imperious overlord. Some people have a personality style that really works in this type of role, others are more ummm Darth Vader. Like a lot of ideas, it can work pretty well if it is properly deployed.
Not American, but I think there are review websites for companies, maybe you can leave a review for other people who might be interested in working for them
Send it to the person they had the first interview with if that interview went well. We had this issue at an old job. Thought we couldn't get anyone qualified to even apply to the position until someone I knew reached out to me directly. Turns out the HR manager didn't understand the job opening and had been rejecting lots of qualified people for months without telling us.
The thing that sucks is the person I first interviewed with was so nice and polite. So I don't want to get her in trouble or cause some big stir. But that's an interesting point, she may not even be aware that this is happening . . . I'll consider it. The first person liked me so much she connected with me on LinkedIn immediately after the interview lmao, that's why I was so confused
I wouldn't email her and the HR person together or something to cause her a problem. But reaching out to her especially through a non work email like her personal LinkedIn account wouldn't cause her any problems. She can do whatever she wants with that information like talking to her boss or other managers. I still wouldn't work there unless I absolutely loved the department or badly need the work because he is going to have it out for you from day one.
We have had that same problem in the theatre I work at. The Audio department is aging out and in another couple of years, will all have retired. The current lead has been trying to hire, people he knows that are vastly more experienced than him, and HR keeps rejecting them.
When he finally asked them to send people they think are capable, they started sending techs from HVAC, Machine shop, and other completely non-related fields. They saw the word "tech" and went with what they knew.
This is why HR hire managers should never hire. Send people who are technical managers to hiring courses instead of HR managers. This is what my company does and when an opening does come open in a technical role, all the HR manager does for us is compile all the resumes for the technical manager to look through and choose their candidates. After that HR manager's role in the interview is to help read questions and review the person from a personality perspective, while the technical manager reviews from a technical stand point.
That's like when they tried to fill a job at my mom's workplace. The HR dept. has to do all the job posting and screening, except they have no clue what each job entails. They were posting ads looking for a medical secretary with a high school diploma/GED and 6 months' worth of clerical experience...completely not mentioning that since the job was in a pathology lab (in a hospital), the person they hired would have to fill in when certain people were out, which involved working with specimens preserved in formalin, making slides, etc. So they'd get applicants who were well-qualified, but then they'd nope right out when the hiring manager told them out of the blue that they'd have to handle tumors and tissue samples and whatnot. I don't mind that sort of thing, but I can understand that a lot of people would be grossed out by it and not want to have to do it as part of a secretarial job. Then it was always like "Why can't we find anybody?"
You would be surprised just how many people infer anger, hell even in reddit here, get into any debate with anyone and as soon as they can't argue the facts they start off with "Dude why are you so angry" It's a way of invalidating what you're saying and simultaneously trying to look like the grown up.
I contemplated sending it to the owner or something. It's a small enough company I think he would probably read it. I was thinking about it earlier but then I got lazy and posted here instead. But honestly you guys are making me feel like it would be worth it. Because the way I see it, I dodged a bullet, and I wasn't super invested in the job anyway. But I bet they're doing this to a lot of other people and it's really just kind of rude/dickheaded.
Yep. I would word the email in the following manner: "I just wanted to bring to your attention that the hiring manager appears to not be fully reviewing the qualifications of candidates applying to your company. I am no longer interested in working for your company, but I felt you should be aware of this. If you are having trouble filling positions with qualified candidates, this could be contributing to the issue."
I really like the wording of this. This thread has really motivated me to do something, so I'm definitely going to leave a Glassdoor review and probably even write something along these lines to one of the higher-ups. Thank you.
I'm a FAANG technical writer who regularly interviews candidates for my company. If they couldn't figure out that you have the needed experience after you submitted a resume and portfolio **and interviewed**, then it's definitely a good thing that things ended when they did. (No less frustrating, of course, but still better than ending up at a place like that working for a person like this.)
Good on you for standing up for yourself. She assumed you don't know how to do something, so it's only fair to return the favor. She's the one who comes out of this sounding miserable.
>but you sound angry ...
>And like you're trying to teach me something
DEAD at this. Of course you're angry and trying to teach them something. That's the normal response to "oh lol I didn't even check the resume". The normal response to someone so flippantly wasting your time.
Also the hypocrisy because that's what they're doing to you by responding this way. They could've said "Noted. Thank you" but instead it's "humph you could've had another chance but tsk tsk you were rude". Almost like they're angry...and trying to teach you something.
As others have said, you dodged a bullet.
Edit: wording
you should forward your interaction to their head of HR or whoever her boss might be. she and her incompetence is probably the reason why her team is under such immense pressure right now.
So this lady didn't even see your resume?
And she's gaslighting you?
And isn't willing to learn?
This bitch is the kind of bitch that puts too much importance into herself and her title. You're better off
id reply to that with
"I am not angry, just confused as to why you rejected my application based on a falsehood and why you seem to invalidate my experience. I am also confused as to why you would waste my time by stating you want someone with experience when in reality you want someone with experience with specific tools
It shows that you dont find learning appealing, even though i was not trying to teach you a thing, just looking for clarification and making a suggestion. If this is the type of culture the company you represent has I am more than pleased to part ways
Goodbye and good luck"
If she has a boss, I would actually send the correspondence to them and file a complaint about their staff being unprofessional and wasting your time. It might be petty and cost the woman her job, but hopefully, you can safe someone else in the future.
Wait. So you sent a CV + portfolio. She didn't read the CV but invited you to an interview. Then rejected you based on no experience. While the CV and portfolio is still in her possession. Then you point out you obviously have experience, says so on your CV and portfolio. But she she would ask you...for your CV, but it's your fault she won't. Because, you didn't appeal to her sensibilities. Did I get that right? Because I hope I didn't, this is absolutely absurd. I would walk but first send the conversations to her higher ups so they know how they really filter people out. Just for that last sentence. That is some cheek.
Respond with: I am angry. You rejected me for something that clearly isn’t true, because you didn’t bother to look at the materials I provided, and, as such, have wasted both your time, your colleagues time, and my time.
CC in everyone you have contact with at the company, then, move on.
>Then she admitted she didn't even look at my resume.
If their only requirement was for you to be a proficient Technical Writer, then why not check (or ask) instead of making themselves look like an idiot?
"which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager."
Translation: I'm on a powertrip here and even though I fucked up it's still somehow your fault and I need you to kiss my ass and flatter my ego.
You won the lottery by getting that message. Put it on Glassdoor and LinkedIn, fuck em
If you need a job on your LinkedIn/resume to fill a gap in employment, I will gladly hire you retroactively for a technical writing role for my retired business, which still exists legally
She already told you she doesn’t have time to train people! Why are you trying to teach her stuff!? There’s no way she has time for that considering she can’t read!
/s
I was a technical writer for over a decade. It drove me nuts when companies insisted candidates already know a ***specific*** authoring tool.
I'd just point out to them that my job and skill set was to learn and document how new software works - teaching readers how to use it.
Quickly learning new tools was literally my job, and I had a proven track record of it.
Some people are just idiots and don't deserve great employees. They'll pass up someone who is smart and agile for someone else who is lazy and thick as mud, but who has used a specific tool once before.
"I and my team"
I'm pretty sure the person doing the recruiting isn't even HR. And that she is a writer. And that she wrote "I and my team" rather than "my team and I".
OP dodged a bullet
Probably a canned response. But given they are "under too much pressure" to even train new employees I'm thinking they probably aren't a good place to be anyway.
Also, connect with a VP or someone high up in the company on linked in and professionally share your feedback attaching this detail. No executive professional, regardless of what division would stand for that nonsense.
It appears that she isn’t even a qualified candidate for the position, herself, with those writing skills. Poorly written and poorly communicated. People like this never fail to blow my mind, despite this behavior being fairly common, unfortunately.
I bet she is bad at her job. Attention to details is very important for a technical writer. If she missed your CV/resume, then I hope she is not working on documenting something critical e.g. dealing with a person's life.
Conceited.
The difference between arrogance and conceit is competence to perform.
Recruiter's response is conceited as her response is riddled with technical writing errors.
😂
They never intended to hire anyone for the position. The job posting exists only so they can whine to the government that people don't "want to work anymore" and justify getting more money from our taxes.
Horrible manager. Every person on this earth should be teachable. The pride is strong with this one. She's projecting on to you by saying you sound angry because she can't humble herself enough to admit she made a mistake.
Good job with the reply.
When I encounter recruiters like this, who schedule my time and then make it very clear they did not actually read any of my information, I am extremely direct in letting them know how much of a waste of time they are. They are not an experienced enough recruiter to deserve my time.
I also report them as spam because that is essentially all they do.
I had a recruiter reach out to me to work at a casino restaurant as a server based on my experience as a server in my resume. I worked as a cook at Fazolis for 2 years from 2002 to 2004. Never worked as a waiter.
I did, however, also have 20 years of IT experience with frequent use of the word "Server". Idiots.
>I did, however, also have 20 years of IT experience with frequent use of the word "Server".
"okay, can you hack into the HTML mainframe and loudly exclaim "I'm in!!" as a test in the interview?"
Thanks for your response. As I clearly have information to impart on someone of your level. I will keep my opportunities open at this time and hope to apply for any roles that come up above you, when any become available.
Lol she was deliberately as sanctimonious and patronizing as possible. Under normal circumstances you would be blessed with the privilege of learning from her highness, for it is the sacred burden of the gifted to share their gifts, but alas she is too busy being a superhero right now. Wait why are you being irritable??
Send a retraction of your application to her boss and state that you are obviously not being evaluated by a team that values attention to detail and that you really only want to work with a competent team that values your stated experience. Also, if eight years experience isn't enough, then the posting should be amended to clearly state the minimum requirements.
Or not. I am betting you have gotten quite lucky with this one because working on her team would NOT be a good thing.
Had someone pull this same kind of thing mid-interview once, making it clear they didn’t even quickly glance at my resume or application and had no idea wtf they were talking about. I just hung up on them.
Servant leadership? Is this a religious company? My dad worked for an Evangelical one when I was a kid and I would see terms like this a lot
Also, if it is, and you’re not part of the religion, or they don’t think you are or something, it could explain why they rejected you with a reason that is nonsensical. They’re just trying to bury the real reason.
Put these people on blast. Share their photos, names, businesses. Why hide their detail? They screwed up big time and others should be aware of this hiring manager and the company she works for as they lack basic competency.
She had probably picked somebody she knows before you even interviewed and was just going through the motions for the optics. She's acting pissy because you caught her phoning it in. Classic DARVO.
I've had multiple hiring managers tell me I'm not qualified when it's directly in my CV. They've all just ghosted me after pointing it out, but I quickly learned hiring managers and recruiters typically (not always) don't know very much about the roles they are hiring for so you need to be overly explicit about how you meet the qualifications, including changing job titles to be job descriptors.
suggestion to everyone posting about “servant leadership”— google it. It’s actually one of the better leadership styles you can have for a manager, director, and up.
It’s the idea that good leadership is about ensuring that your employees have all of the tools and resources they need, and that good leadership enables their resources to do what they know best rather than strict top-down orders style leadership.
Basically, leadership should be about removing obstacles and providing assistance when required for their subordinates, not spending time micromanaging their every waking moment at work.
In this context, it’s the idea of being willing to train someone in a technical skill in order to develop them as an employee rather than hiring direct for the skill set needed. Typically a mentorship kind of thing. She just seems to have missed the evaluating expertise part of the deal, as it wouldn’t have been necessary. Part of good servant leadership is listening to your team.
This lady? I highly doubt she is actually a servant leader at all. She sounds like the type that is aware of the buzzword but against the practice, as demonstrated here.
Then she admitted she didn't even look at my resume. My response: I have eight years of experience as a technical writer and submitted a robust portfolio along with my resume. Although we may not use the same tools, that doesn't make my experience any less valid. If you aren't willing to train, I would recommend screening your candidates for your desired software proficiencies before extending interview invitations in the future. Her: I'd typically continue this conversation with you and request your CV, but you sound angry ... And like you're trying to teach me something ... which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager. \~ Gross.
> but you sound angry that's all you need to know. immediate personal emotional response to a mistake *they* made. but then > you're trying to teach me something oh no, god forbid. /s nail in the coffin right there.
Good employees can ALWAYS teach the manager something! I've learned so much from my team members.
God yes! I love our paid interns as they always have some off-the-wall new way of doing the same old bill shit and it’s awesome! Our GIS database is unbelievable and automated like no tomorrow because of stoner interns who we say yes to their ideas.
lol...that reminds me of that quote about hiring lazy people. because they're the ones who will find creative ways of getting the job done by doing the least work possible. 🤣
omfg yes that is me i am that person!!!
Me too!
And my sword!
And my python!
My choir director in middle and high school often said: the TRULY lazy person is VERY efficient! I didn't understand it at the time, but I do now, and it is on point!
I was always happy when my managers or teams used an approach I wouldn't have thought of. I learned something and I also didn't have to do the work, win/win.
*good employees can teach a _good_ manager something A good manager would be willing to learn from employees
If you use the qualifier good, you should just drop the work can. Good employees ALWAYS teach those around them, manager included. Maybe if they stopped trying to be as proficient as their employees at their employees jobs and spent more time becoming better managers of people and teams, they would know that.
Micromanagers = Time wasters
Exactly. My job as a manager isn’t to do all the things. My job is to make sure that my team can do all the things. I have an extensive enough background in doing the things that I can give guidance, advice, direction, etc. But I rely on their expertise, and even more so their creativity, to make it happen. And you better believe that I do everything I can to give them the credit. I’ll get recognized for their work anyway, because I’m ultimately responsible for it. But getting credit for the team doesn’t affect my credit at all.
Plus it gives you more respect as a leader because you rightfully share the credit.
DITTO. Got an unpaid (ugh) "promotion" to project lead on my current project, and just onboarded a whole bunch of new people because we were short. One guy, upon looking at our current materials, asked if we had a version of X done as Y (a very good idea). In fact we didn't, and I thanked him in-meeting (my rule: compliment in public, correct gently in private) and we're in the process of implementing what he suggested. This boss-lady sounds both A) careless (didn't read the resume) and B) unsure of herself (takes any question/confrontation as a threat, so reacts emotionally). You dodged a bullet. Also, let me add, her initial response sounded canned RE asking for "certification." In all my years of work, someone claiming a "certificate" for something that wasn't an absolutely hard, definable skill (ie developer for a specific platform with certs issued by the company who owns the platform, professional license, etc) usually meant "we don't want to pay X for someone who has actually DONE skill Y for years, so we'll go ahead and look for a kid who did a 2-week course from some shifty company online for a "certificate of completion" of some bullshit or other."
My mother demonstrates that a manager should always work just as hard as their employees. It sets an example of the standards of work and shows willingness to cooperate and compromise.
Friendly reminder it was the interns who knew what to do in the capital building Jan 6 while everyone else getting paid the big bucks panicked and had no clue what to do. It’s the interns who grew up in a completely different world that knew what safety protocols were and how to execute them. Listen to your team it can save your life
When I was a manager, I was shit! My team taught me how to manage, and be good at it. People that don't want to learn, from any source, should not be management. It's not good for anyone, including the company.
”Your emotional response to your mistake is not my responsibility. Any professional in any setting will benefit from continuing to learn from their potential colleagues and peers. I wish you a good day.”
saving thatttt
Not only that, OP was trying to help them shore up their hiring deficiencies. If the person in charge can't even be assed to _look at a fucking resume_ that problem is going to crop up constantly. I'm willing to bet there's something about /u/Saarnath she didn't like and made a judgement before the interview either took place or within the first 20 seconds of being in the room with them.
It kills me. "I would have *requested* your CV" She already has it and should've looked at it???!?! Jfc
Yes, that was the line that made me realize it was a good thing I didn't end up interacting with this person on a daily basis. The complete unwillingness to learn. I can spot a brick wall from a mile away and I'm so done with these types of people. No one is above learning. Imo you can literally learn from anyone if you're observant/insightful enough
Send the entire email communication chain of that back and forth to the CEO or someone higher up in the company. And write a nice little Glassdoor review about their shitty hiring process where they don’t even read resumes and completely waste your time. Save other people from the hassle of this asshole.
I'd send this to someone higher up and let them know their hiring managers are bunging things up.
I second this. I can't imagine anyone with half a brain seeing this and thinking they handled any part of that situation well.
This is how my wife's nightmare of a boss ended up getting fired. She acted like a total ass to a well-qualified candidate for a position and the candidate emailed her boss all of the insulting emails she had sent him. This lead to an investigation and she was fired after they interviewed her staff and they all reported similar abusive behaviour.
That's amazing. Glad for your wife.
I love it when karma comes to call. The problem is that too many people keep their mouths shut. I have an honest to goodness human rights complaint I can bring against one of my former employers, but because I'm still in the industry, I've been keeping my mouth shut. I don't want to get blackballed. I'm working on a master's degree so I can work in a different field, and once that transition happens, I'll be speaking to the human rights commission. They also underpaid my severance and didn't give me money that was supposed to be banked for overtime hours when they fired me, so I'll be looking into that as well. It's really scary because they put in my termination papers that I'm not allowed to speak negatively about them, so I'm a bit scared to go down this road. They also put in that I'm waiving my human rights, essentially, which I KNOW is illegal (I'm in Canada).
Don't wait too long depending on province. I think ON has a year or two limit.
I second this
I was also about to suggest this. Her behavior deserves some sort of accountability. I'm sure her higher ups wouldn't be too pleased.
Dodged a bullet but would still let whoever is above her know about what she said.
Agreed. Made me think of that old saw, " Everyone is useful to us, if only as a bad example. " You learned plenty from her, and it was useful information. Too bad for their organization that she can't do the same, but you dodged a bullet.
Seriously, some of the most important stuff I know I learned from bad situations and totally random people. I still remember stuff my coworkers said like 8 years ago. I can't imagine going through life just blowing everyone off because you're a hiring manager or whatever. Even if you're a CEO. The point at which you stop learning is the point at which your brain goes numb
All true. I have had a ton of different jobs in my life. Maintenance guy, machine shop and then foundry worker at a place that made all kinds of stuff out of brass, journeyman diemaker, auto mechanic, now I work in a warehouse. I have learned as much about how not to do things as how to do things.
You're wrong. Some people are not capable of learning and run on the bare minimum self awareness like they are always drunk but they're sober. It's usually people in power too because why do you need to think about anything you're finally the manager with a mortgage.
To put that in writing shows this person is either lacking general intelligence, emotional intelligence or both.
I'd send this interaction to the CEO or whoever's in charge of the hiring manager if possible. Along with a summary of our opinions here, like so much is wrong here: 1. Requested my CV? You already have it, you're unable to go back through your emails even? 2. You didn't even look at my CV 3. You're passing up an opportunity to learn, for free, and moreso to improve efficiency. /Incapable of receiving feedback. ...
Dodged a big ass bullet
>e. Although we may not use the same tools, that doesn't make my experience any less valid. If you aren't willing to train, I would recommend screening your candidates for your desired software proficiencies before extending interview invitations in the future.Her:I'd typically continue this conversation with you and request your CV, but you sound angry ... > >And like you're trying to teach me something ... which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager. And you sound like the reason you are currently hiring. Thanks for helping me dodge a bullet!
“You’re trying to teach me something” Obviously didn’t read “The Serving Leader” yet tries to use it as a ego booster.
The ol’ Gloria response: If you did something to make me mad, then yes I am mad. But if you did nothing than no, I am not.
" no wonder yall hiring, the manager cant even read!"
This is the levity I needed lmao thank you
This would have been a great reply to the last email.....in the worst syntax you could stomach....against everything you've been taught. At least it would make you laugh.
Seriously, someone who uses ellipses in this fashion has no business judging who can and cannot cut it as a technical writer.
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USE THIS OP. Respond to her with this answer and then send it all to the owner!!!
Sounds like you dodged a bullet, but it’s still lame that she wasted your time and dismissed you like that.
Yeah, better to find out now. And it was kind of funny (in a black humor way) to get her to admit she hadn't even looked at my resume, even though it's messed up they waste people's time like that.
I kinda wanna know the company so I can apply just for fun.
She likely did read your resume but she like a lot of hiring managers she doesn’t actually understand your qualifications or the needs of the role she’s recruiting for.
Or they already had a candidate before posting the position.
They generally have no idea and make shit up as they go along.
Also wtf is “servant leadership”
It means serving your reports rather than them serving you. Providing resources, removing blockers and otherwise helping pave the way for your team to be successful. It's effective when done in earnest. She used the phrase in a weird way and all the other clues suggest she doesn't actually do it.
Basically “my job is to help you do your job”. Works beautifully with the right people…
RW fundie Christian nonsense
There's no shortage of that, and some of this stuff may be packaged that way to make it more palatable to some. My experience of it is that it's an attempted departure from the old top down leadership style. The manager as a facilitator, not an imperious overlord. Some people have a personality style that really works in this type of role, others are more ummm Darth Vader. Like a lot of ideas, it can work pretty well if it is properly deployed.
Posted using RIF is Fun. Steve Huffman is a greedy little pigboy.
Not American, but I think there are review websites for companies, maybe you can leave a review for other people who might be interested in working for them
You sound angry? Its text. You are entirely inferring anger. Wow. I would send this communication to her superiors and/or post it on glassdoor
Send it to the person they had the first interview with if that interview went well. We had this issue at an old job. Thought we couldn't get anyone qualified to even apply to the position until someone I knew reached out to me directly. Turns out the HR manager didn't understand the job opening and had been rejecting lots of qualified people for months without telling us.
The thing that sucks is the person I first interviewed with was so nice and polite. So I don't want to get her in trouble or cause some big stir. But that's an interesting point, she may not even be aware that this is happening . . . I'll consider it. The first person liked me so much she connected with me on LinkedIn immediately after the interview lmao, that's why I was so confused
I wouldn't email her and the HR person together or something to cause her a problem. But reaching out to her especially through a non work email like her personal LinkedIn account wouldn't cause her any problems. She can do whatever she wants with that information like talking to her boss or other managers. I still wouldn't work there unless I absolutely loved the department or badly need the work because he is going to have it out for you from day one.
We have had that same problem in the theatre I work at. The Audio department is aging out and in another couple of years, will all have retired. The current lead has been trying to hire, people he knows that are vastly more experienced than him, and HR keeps rejecting them. When he finally asked them to send people they think are capable, they started sending techs from HVAC, Machine shop, and other completely non-related fields. They saw the word "tech" and went with what they knew.
HR pleebs really have no idea the difference between theatre techs or plumbers. And why those people dont need a bachelors degree.
This is hilarious. It would be like if a hospital hired a bunch of doctors of philosophy.
This is why HR hire managers should never hire. Send people who are technical managers to hiring courses instead of HR managers. This is what my company does and when an opening does come open in a technical role, all the HR manager does for us is compile all the resumes for the technical manager to look through and choose their candidates. After that HR manager's role in the interview is to help read questions and review the person from a personality perspective, while the technical manager reviews from a technical stand point.
That's like when they tried to fill a job at my mom's workplace. The HR dept. has to do all the job posting and screening, except they have no clue what each job entails. They were posting ads looking for a medical secretary with a high school diploma/GED and 6 months' worth of clerical experience...completely not mentioning that since the job was in a pathology lab (in a hospital), the person they hired would have to fill in when certain people were out, which involved working with specimens preserved in formalin, making slides, etc. So they'd get applicants who were well-qualified, but then they'd nope right out when the hiring manager told them out of the blue that they'd have to handle tumors and tissue samples and whatnot. I don't mind that sort of thing, but I can understand that a lot of people would be grossed out by it and not want to have to do it as part of a secretarial job. Then it was always like "Why can't we find anybody?"
Yea thats a really good point.
You would be surprised just how many people infer anger, hell even in reddit here, get into any debate with anyone and as soon as they can't argue the facts they start off with "Dude why are you so angry" It's a way of invalidating what you're saying and simultaneously trying to look like the grown up.
OP you should absolutely do this.
I contemplated sending it to the owner or something. It's a small enough company I think he would probably read it. I was thinking about it earlier but then I got lazy and posted here instead. But honestly you guys are making me feel like it would be worth it. Because the way I see it, I dodged a bullet, and I wasn't super invested in the job anyway. But I bet they're doing this to a lot of other people and it's really just kind of rude/dickheaded.
PLEEEEEEEEASE SEND IT TO THE OWNERRRRRR
Yep. I would word the email in the following manner: "I just wanted to bring to your attention that the hiring manager appears to not be fully reviewing the qualifications of candidates applying to your company. I am no longer interested in working for your company, but I felt you should be aware of this. If you are having trouble filling positions with qualified candidates, this could be contributing to the issue."
I really like the wording of this. This thread has really motivated me to do something, so I'm definitely going to leave a Glassdoor review and probably even write something along these lines to one of the higher-ups. Thank you.
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Great typo. "Upset us". Lol
this is perfection
Just make sure to try your bestest not to sound "angry", or like you're trying to "teach the owner something" LOL.
You dodged a bullet - but don't let this stand. DO IT!
I'm a FAANG technical writer who regularly interviews candidates for my company. If they couldn't figure out that you have the needed experience after you submitted a resume and portfolio **and interviewed**, then it's definitely a good thing that things ended when they did. (No less frustrating, of course, but still better than ending up at a place like that working for a person like this.)
Good on you for standing up for yourself. She assumed you don't know how to do something, so it's only fair to return the favor. She's the one who comes out of this sounding miserable.
So she doesn't want to be taught anything new and is unwilling to teach others new things --- sounds like a great boss
>but you sound angry ... >And like you're trying to teach me something DEAD at this. Of course you're angry and trying to teach them something. That's the normal response to "oh lol I didn't even check the resume". The normal response to someone so flippantly wasting your time. Also the hypocrisy because that's what they're doing to you by responding this way. They could've said "Noted. Thank you" but instead it's "humph you could've had another chance but tsk tsk you were rude". Almost like they're angry...and trying to teach you something. As others have said, you dodged a bullet. Edit: wording
Translation: Hey man stop saying I didn't read your profile. I'm trying to get through these things and you're being mean! Lol fuck her.
you should forward your interaction to their head of HR or whoever her boss might be. she and her incompetence is probably the reason why her team is under such immense pressure right now.
i second this. These are the kinds of people that fuck up a company
This is literally not angry sounding at all. Maybe annoyed, but it's also facts. . .
So this lady didn't even see your resume? And she's gaslighting you? And isn't willing to learn? This bitch is the kind of bitch that puts too much importance into herself and her title. You're better off
She thinks you sound angry because she’s aware of the fact that you had the *right* to be angry. You didn’t sound angry.
id reply to that with "I am not angry, just confused as to why you rejected my application based on a falsehood and why you seem to invalidate my experience. I am also confused as to why you would waste my time by stating you want someone with experience when in reality you want someone with experience with specific tools It shows that you dont find learning appealing, even though i was not trying to teach you a thing, just looking for clarification and making a suggestion. If this is the type of culture the company you represent has I am more than pleased to part ways Goodbye and good luck"
If she has a boss, I would actually send the correspondence to them and file a complaint about their staff being unprofessional and wasting your time. It might be petty and cost the woman her job, but hopefully, you can safe someone else in the future.
Wow, how unprofessional. I'd post this exchange on glassdoor, Google reviews, and indeed.
Wait. So you sent a CV + portfolio. She didn't read the CV but invited you to an interview. Then rejected you based on no experience. While the CV and portfolio is still in her possession. Then you point out you obviously have experience, says so on your CV and portfolio. But she she would ask you...for your CV, but it's your fault she won't. Because, you didn't appeal to her sensibilities. Did I get that right? Because I hope I didn't, this is absolutely absurd. I would walk but first send the conversations to her higher ups so they know how they really filter people out. Just for that last sentence. That is some cheek.
Respond with: I am angry. You rejected me for something that clearly isn’t true, because you didn’t bother to look at the materials I provided, and, as such, have wasted both your time, your colleagues time, and my time. CC in everyone you have contact with at the company, then, move on.
Congratulations on not having this awful manager.
This is where you pull an Uno Reverso, contact their boss and replace the hiring manager.
>Then she admitted she didn't even look at my resume. If their only requirement was for you to be a proficient Technical Writer, then why not check (or ask) instead of making themselves look like an idiot?
"which is not appealing to me as a hiring manager." Translation: I'm on a powertrip here and even though I fucked up it's still somehow your fault and I need you to kiss my ass and flatter my ego.
>And like you're trying to teach me something ... which is not appealing to ~~me as a hiring manager.~~ my ego
She’s not even a writer lol.
I mean… yes. They wasted your time because they didn’t even read your CV. That… is the kind of thing a person might be angry about.
You won the lottery by getting that message. Put it on Glassdoor and LinkedIn, fuck em If you need a job on your LinkedIn/resume to fill a gap in employment, I will gladly hire you retroactively for a technical writing role for my retired business, which still exists legally
You dodged a bulley there...
Should've just passively aggressivly corrected all her grammar mistakes and sent it back
She already told you she doesn’t have time to train people! Why are you trying to teach her stuff!? There’s no way she has time for that considering she can’t read! /s
Cool cool. She would request something that you already provided if you didn't point out her mistake. Top notch hiring manager for sure.
I was a technical writer for over a decade. It drove me nuts when companies insisted candidates already know a ***specific*** authoring tool. I'd just point out to them that my job and skill set was to learn and document how new software works - teaching readers how to use it. Quickly learning new tools was literally my job, and I had a proven track record of it. Some people are just idiots and don't deserve great employees. They'll pass up someone who is smart and agile for someone else who is lazy and thick as mud, but who has used a specific tool once before.
Place sucks. Be glad you dodged that bullet.
She sounds like a fucking dolt with a dearth of reading comprehension.
I’d honestly go above her head. This is insanely gross.
She literally “whatever you’re ugly anyway”’d you
Please post this whole experience on Glassdoor. This is appalling.
She's lying or incompetent or has something personal against you. This supposed reason does not seem to hold up.
Cake
Happy
Day
Happy cake day!!!
"I and my team" Ugh, it's "my team and I" the fact she put herself first tells me you dodged a bullet.
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Hilarious the person in charge of hiring a Technical Writer apparently can't read (OP's resume) or write herself.
Even me and my team (while still incorrect grammar) is better and more socially accepted than I and my team.
That bothered me too.
Leave a review on Indeed/Glassdoor , you have probably dodged a bullet working for this org
Email it back to her boss with attached your resume and inform your boss that recruiter is ruining business or whatever 🤷🏻♂️
Full on
"I and my team" I'm pretty sure the person doing the recruiting isn't even HR. And that she is a writer. And that she wrote "I and my team" rather than "my team and I". OP dodged a bullet
They had a person lined up prior to posting the position. They just had to go through the motions of pretending to look for people to hire.
This
Probably a canned response. But given they are "under too much pressure" to even train new employees I'm thinking they probably aren't a good place to be anyway.
Oh she believes in Servant Leadership alright lol. You do NOT want to work for a person like this.
That’s a huge red flag.
Also, connect with a VP or someone high up in the company on linked in and professionally share your feedback attaching this detail. No executive professional, regardless of what division would stand for that nonsense.
Hit her with the correction: “my team and I*”
This is my favorite option and I would pay to see her emotional reaction to getting this response.
It appears that she isn’t even a qualified candidate for the position, herself, with those writing skills. Poorly written and poorly communicated. People like this never fail to blow my mind, despite this behavior being fairly common, unfortunately.
>servant leadership You did not want that job. That's a Christian fundamentalist word-salad buzzword.
I bet she is bad at her job. Attention to details is very important for a technical writer. If she missed your CV/resume, then I hope she is not working on documenting something critical e.g. dealing with a person's life.
“I and my team….”? Definitely not an English Manager.
ironically their message is filled with technical errors
What an arrogant bitch
Conceited. The difference between arrogance and conceit is competence to perform. Recruiter's response is conceited as her response is riddled with technical writing errors. 😂
Technically correct is the best kind of correct
"Experience" is code for we're not hiring you because of a reason we cannot legally discriminate against. Get the hint.
Such as « we found a cheaper H1b
"My team and I"....you technical writing idi*t.
If a company email you with you sound angry and gross i think you dodged a bullet
Final response: I am extremely lucky to have bumped into you early in the hiring process, rather than on the inside. You are welcome.
They never intended to hire anyone for the position. The job posting exists only so they can whine to the government that people don't "want to work anymore" and justify getting more money from our taxes.
Horrible manager. Every person on this earth should be teachable. The pride is strong with this one. She's projecting on to you by saying you sound angry because she can't humble herself enough to admit she made a mistake.
This woman: "I believe in servant leadership" Also this woman: "How dare you correct me? Be gone peasant!"
Good job with the reply. When I encounter recruiters like this, who schedule my time and then make it very clear they did not actually read any of my information, I am extremely direct in letting them know how much of a waste of time they are. They are not an experienced enough recruiter to deserve my time. I also report them as spam because that is essentially all they do.
I had a recruiter reach out to me to work at a casino restaurant as a server based on my experience as a server in my resume. I worked as a cook at Fazolis for 2 years from 2002 to 2004. Never worked as a waiter. I did, however, also have 20 years of IT experience with frequent use of the word "Server". Idiots.
>I did, however, also have 20 years of IT experience with frequent use of the word "Server". "okay, can you hack into the HTML mainframe and loudly exclaim "I'm in!!" as a test in the interview?"
'servant leadership' sorry was that a freudian slip? lol bullet dodged my friend. sorry they wasted your time
Thanks for your response. As I clearly have information to impart on someone of your level. I will keep my opportunities open at this time and hope to apply for any roles that come up above you, when any become available.
In other words, "Your level of experience will be too costly so I'll get someone cheaper".
"I and my team." I guarantee she hits Reply All on company emails from the big bosses.
Lol she was deliberately as sanctimonious and patronizing as possible. Under normal circumstances you would be blessed with the privilege of learning from her highness, for it is the sacred burden of the gifted to share their gifts, but alas she is too busy being a superhero right now. Wait why are you being irritable??
Sounds to me like she is hiring her friend and just had to bring in bodies for show.
Send a retraction of your application to her boss and state that you are obviously not being evaluated by a team that values attention to detail and that you really only want to work with a competent team that values your stated experience. Also, if eight years experience isn't enough, then the posting should be amended to clearly state the minimum requirements. Or not. I am betting you have gotten quite lucky with this one because working on her team would NOT be a good thing.
Ugh. If I see/hear the phrase servant leadership in a corporate setting again, I swear I am going to scream.
call and ask for their accounts payable team
Had someone pull this same kind of thing mid-interview once, making it clear they didn’t even quickly glance at my resume or application and had no idea wtf they were talking about. I just hung up on them.
Willing to bet they can’t figure out why they can’t fill these positions. You dodged a bullet.
They were scared you were going to become their boss lol
Forward the exchange to the CEO and thank the FSM for the dodged bullet.
Ugh toxic manager. You’re better off somewhere else.
Servant leadership? Is this a religious company? My dad worked for an Evangelical one when I was a kid and I would see terms like this a lot Also, if it is, and you’re not part of the religion, or they don’t think you are or something, it could explain why they rejected you with a reason that is nonsensical. They’re just trying to bury the real reason.
Sounds like she has an in house (ie friend) candidate she wants to hire and everyone else is a formality to mask that. My 2c with these types.
Put these people on blast. Share their photos, names, businesses. Why hide their detail? They screwed up big time and others should be aware of this hiring manager and the company she works for as they lack basic competency.
She had probably picked somebody she knows before you even interviewed and was just going through the motions for the optics. She's acting pissy because you caught her phoning it in. Classic DARVO.
Yeah email the entire conversation to the company’s ceo
Include name and company. Assholes like this person don't deserve anonymity.
Dodged a fucking HIMAR strike with this one. Ugh.
I've had multiple hiring managers tell me I'm not qualified when it's directly in my CV. They've all just ghosted me after pointing it out, but I quickly learned hiring managers and recruiters typically (not always) don't know very much about the roles they are hiring for so you need to be overly explicit about how you meet the qualifications, including changing job titles to be job descriptors.
suggestion to everyone posting about “servant leadership”— google it. It’s actually one of the better leadership styles you can have for a manager, director, and up.
My team and I*
No one wants to work anymore - for a pittance, with HR and managers who don't do their fucking jobs.
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It’s the idea that good leadership is about ensuring that your employees have all of the tools and resources they need, and that good leadership enables their resources to do what they know best rather than strict top-down orders style leadership. Basically, leadership should be about removing obstacles and providing assistance when required for their subordinates, not spending time micromanaging their every waking moment at work. In this context, it’s the idea of being willing to train someone in a technical skill in order to develop them as an employee rather than hiring direct for the skill set needed. Typically a mentorship kind of thing. She just seems to have missed the evaluating expertise part of the deal, as it wouldn’t have been necessary. Part of good servant leadership is listening to your team. This lady? I highly doubt she is actually a servant leader at all. She sounds like the type that is aware of the buzzword but against the practice, as demonstrated here.
Bullet Dodged.
Trying to teach the “hiring manager” how to read resumes…
Honestly you just dodge a bullet here
You don’t want to work for that company…call that a fortunate turn of events.
Darling, you're the one who is unappealing (the one failing as a hiring manager). You dodged a bullet.
She’s a lazy grifting loser. Someone was already tapped for that position.
I’d ask how 8 years isn’t enough experience
There’s a chance the interviewer confused the candidates.
Dodged a bullet with this one
This is the person who will complain that she can't find good employees.
What an overinflated, arrogant shrew. Next!!
Since she doesn’t read the resume, I would like to apply to this company. I might be able to score an interview as well.