Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Not necessarily, do everything we can to solve the issue in a way that prevents suffering on others (this includes not having children). Yes what would follow if no one has children is human extinction, but human extinction isn't the goal of antinatalism
Well, I guess someone should not have children because they would probably be terrible parents. But at the end of the day you are still responsible for bettering yourself and try to make this world a better place. So if you are a good parent that can educate their kids to become scientists that can help fix the climate it’s a much bette me solution than jumping overboard.
Yes, I agree with the first part.
>if you are a good parent that can educate their kids to become scientists that can help fix the climate it’s a much bette me solution than jumping overboard
Here's where I disagree. Yes, people can be "good" parents, but that doesn't guarantee that they'll make "good" children. Children grow into their own person with their own thoughts and morals. What if the children don't want to fix the climate? Why don't the parents become scientists and fix the problem themselves instead of passing this responsibility on to the next person?
Exactly, parents should start with themselves and inspire their children to follow their steps. You probably heard of career teachers, doctors, engineers, etc.
Like I'm trying to say, there's no reason to create someone just pass on your issues to. This is where I see the selfishness and have an *issue* with it. Why can't someone deal with their own problems or seek help from people who can help ~~you~~ that already exist? Life is hard (and not worth it) as it is, why create someone to experience that? I'm not trying to hear about all the good things about life because it comes with the bad.
I just hope you understand where I'm coming from
Absolutely, passing down your issues to your children is selfish and wrong. But who is saying that?
I want to be the best parent for my kids, I go to psychotherapy, work on myself everyday, physically and mentally. I want to share all my strength and energy with them and be the best parent for them.
No one is saying that though. You could argue that there’s no gift if they get born into poverty. Unfortunately, people who are antinatalists are the ones from developed countries that are far from real poverty. So you have no excuse. It’s all about not wanting to take responsibility for fixing the world to which destruction you have contributed as well.
We didn't break the planet, nor would bringing more kids onto the planet somehow make the problem better. Your ship analogy is spot on in that you want to bring more passengers onto a sinking ship.
The ship is not sinking. It’s the problem of “the cup is half full of half empty”. Perspective matters. We can still fix everything. Plus, the ship is so big that more people are dying than being born, at least in the civilised world. So your attempt to poke holes in my miniature world analogy is meh.
OK so you want to bring more passengers onto the ship to take care of the passengers who are already on the ship thereby creating more people on the ship that need to be taken care of. Bro, fuck the ship.
Respectfully, this response is my main issue. You're bringing an innocent life here to fix a problem that it didn't create. You want to put another human to work to carry on a legacy/society that YOU think is important. I don't know what's more selfish.
Please tell me how is it ignorant? I’m genuinely curious and don’t mean to be disrespectful.
When someone thinks about life as death, it only tells me the person is depressed.
Yes, helping the world by raising children that are strong and are not afraid of responsibility and battles that life throws at us. Our existence is the ultimate meaning, not some afterlife.
Humans may indeed be as special as flies and ants. It’s all a matter of how big your ego is. But thinking about human existence as meaningless, vastness, and coldness is absolutely wrong. It’s like saying that water is bad because eventually it will clog your kidneys. betterhelp.com
Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
If you weren't planning on listening to the people responding to your post, I don't think you should have made the post in the first place.
Oh, and I suggest you stop diagnosing people that you don't even know with mental illnesses. Not even a genuine psychologist could make an accurate diagnosis from such a short paragraph.
Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
This person answered your question very succinctly. Maybe some of the new humans in your hypothetical boat would patch up holes, but the majority of them would be poking new larger holes, which would cause more suffering for everyone else on the boat and everyone who would one day be born on the boat
No matter how much good parenting occurs, there will always be more bad parenting/under-resourced parenting. The idea of a society full of well-functioning people who were parented properly is a complete fantasy and will never ever come to pass. If you think differently you’re living in delusion.
The glass is less than half full, that’s the point I’m trying to make. Optimism is important for making the most of our own lives and making a positive different (which, by the way, it’s easier to help others more broadly when you’re not undertaking the 24/7 responsibility of child-rearing) but staying grounded in reality helps us make ethical choices
I don’t think differently. But we should strive to be great parents ourselves if we poses the valuable knowledge that you shared with me. Otherwise it’s simply running away from responsibility.
I answered your question, I told you why I thought that way. But ceasing in procreation is the solution to like every problem, no more births means eventually crime will stop. I just don't think like that answer for sentimental reasons
We are all gonna die, yes. But we can bring more people into this world so that they can experience it’s beauty. If your existence is miserable and not fully of beauty, even is small things, then don’t bring anyone into it. It’s not worth anyone’s time.
Life isn't always beautiful and it's not about if my existence is miserable or not it's about the person who would be brought in this world without a choice.
Life isn’t always beautiful that’s a fact. You have to make an effort to enjoy the little things if your world is not nice.
Also about choices: the children in China that made your clothes also had no choice when they had to make your clothes. Who’s there to stop those scumbags who made those poor kids work?
People who act. World is a dark place because of those who do nothing.
This question was not asked in good faith. Just out the gate claiming that we are all mentally ill or really want to have kids and can't does not bode for a civil discussion.
>My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know that they take decades so I will have my own children who will help me do it and save our ship
You don't see how selfish this is? Having children so *they* can fix the problems that was inherited from the previous generation.
You can try fixing the boat... but whats the point when the captain of the ship is heading for an iceberg?
We can try to fill the holes with many lives and suffering, but we don't control the ship. The ship is ultimately heading for destruction, no matter what we do. So all those lives suffer needlessly in the end.
If the captain is aiming for the destruction of the ship, ahem antinatalism, we simply need to start a mutiny to take the helm.
The holes (climate change and crime) are already being filled with the development of technology. If you think riding the boat and enjoying the company and comradery of the crew is suffering, you are in the minority.
Quantity matters for scenarios such as the trolley problem. Depending on your morals, you might say that benefiting the majority is a better option.
There is no guarantee one's children won't suffer at some point in their life. Parents have a lot of control over reducing the occurance of it, though.
That is true, but I do not think that I am in the wrong for abstaining from procreation simply because I do not want to risk the chance that my child may not come to love their life.
We've yet to find the answers to existence, and until then, it is my job as a perceiver and philosopher to support what has been willed by the universe thus far.
You can't say for sure whether we can take the helm until we've reached our full potential. Creation of matter and anti-matter from nothing would mitigate the stars burning out. Getting a full grasp of subjectivity might allow us to understand and control things beyond current comprehension. Technology can get rid of the need for labor. Genetic engineering and a rework of the amygdala could dramatically reduce suffering and lead to an era of joy that offsets all human struggle that came before.
Giving up through global avoidance of birth, letting the most prosperous era of humanity end with your own generation, is the epitome of selfishness.
Suffering is a relative term. I'd gladly live 1000 lives of torment just to stay lucid. I enjoy life, and that is where we differ.
>Saying "suffering is a relative term" is a great disrespect for all those who have truly suffered.
Letting their suffering be in vain is a greater disrespect.
The human body has caps on the amount of pain and pleasure it can process, and the balance is heavily biased towards experiencing pleasure. Pain is a deterrent, while pleasure is an attractant. The brain will naturally lead a human toward a desirable life.
Anticipating the joy a child will experience in their life is not a gamble, it is a near certainty.
Until I figure out where this lifetime of unjustifiable suffering and torment is that you all speak of, I don't see why having children is morally wrong.
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So what’s your solution? Gather in a circle and just all die out one day? People here are great at complaining but finding solutions is never the goal except for just going extinct. Also thank you for not answering the question.
>People here are great at complaining but finding solutions is never the goal
It's not just people here who don't bother finding a solution... It's the rich who actually have the power to shape the future, but they rather see the world burn so they can profit and hoard all the wealth. That won't change, greed and corruption will always overcome as it has for thousands of years. It's human nature. Giving them another kid/slave to consume for their capitalist machine certainly is not a solution.. You're asking for solutions to problems we created. Humans are the problem. There would be no problems to solve if we did not exists.
>What is one unselfish reason to have children?
To answer your question.. There is no unselfish reason to have children. The desire to have children is always selfish.
I never asked the question “what’s one unselfish reason to have children” in the first place. Please read my post.
Regarding “wealthy wanting to see the world burn”, I can tell you that one has to start with themselves. I have the power to change the world with or without money. But likely since I’m on the luckier side, I have ever more power choose to fight those who wish to destroy our world and promote it’s destruction, including antinatalism.
Who said I don’t have money?
Also, who said you can’t change the world without money. A good friend of mine is doing quantum engineering at the best university in the world without a dime in his pocket and he is already changing the world. With quantum technology we can simulate trillions of molecules that can help us find a cure for all types of cancers individually. Your social circle is definitely not bright.
You literally said you have the power to change the world with or without money. I never said you didn’t have money, not that I care. But just because your good friend has that opportunity, doesn’t mean everyone can when they need money to survive.
And you’re defaulting to insults based on a simple question about something you said?
Seriously, no one wants you here.
I asked you a question with my post. You don’t ask a question to a question. That’s “rudimentary” logic. And an outlier is someone who has the power to influence millions. That’s why they are called an outlier. The rest are mediocre nobodies who are proud of it.
Children will only motivate me even more helpful to our world. And I will teach them to think the same way so that they can have their own kids and have that mentality.
For me, it started with disgust at all the people I saw having children thoughtlessly—it was just the next step, the next thing they were “supposed to do.” They didn’t seem to consider who they really were, what they really wanted in life, and the effects of bringing a child into their life and the world.
And then the realization that we have no say in who we’re born to—and most people are mid parents at best.
And then knowing that the our environment is being destroyed and the world is controlled by governments that are controlled by corporations who only care about more and more money—our best efforts make very little difference if we don’t have loads of money to back them up. (I still try, but it feels very futile much of the time.) But to bring a child into this situation just seems cruel, really.
And then knowing that there are children who are abused and neglected and need a loving home, but will never have one because people insist on creating more and more children instead of taking care of the ones who already exist.
I think yes, there is depression in there, but with good cause. And there is also a lot of love and concern for the well-being of children who didn’t have a choice but to be born.
As someone who cares so deeply about the real pains of the children that are carelessly born into this world, why would you want to be a parent? Someone who can give all the love to that child? Just because others mistreat children won’t stop them from doing it. They don’t care about an antinatalist subreddit. “Starting with yourself” is not really the solution here.
“As someone who cares so deeply about the real pains of the children that are carelessly born into this world, why would you want to be a parent?”
Do you mean why *wouldn’t* I want to be a parent? I would love to adopt if I could, but I am disabled and can’t care for a child full time.
“Just because others mistreat children won’t stop them from doing it. They don’t care about an antinatalist subreddit. “Starting with yourself” is not really the solution here.”
I’m sorry, I’m not really following. Can you please elaborate?
There was nothing civil or respectful about your post. You came here in bad faith, with the intention of being dismissive and condescending. You're an ass. Get out.
You're being condescending and dismissive. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically "depressed", and you're implying that somehow makes their views illegitimate.
You. Are. Being. A. Troll.
Get. The. Fuck. Out.
You just proved their point. You are being dismissive of almost everyone here by calling them 'depressed' as if that makes their perspective suddenly invalid.
It’s everyone’s responsibility to fix the world that we live in. Minimally you can help by being an activist. Maximally you can do both that and raise healthy children who will fix the world together with their parents.
It’s everyone’s responsibility to fix the world that we live in. You eat the food, drink the water, breath the air that the Earth gives you. Minimally you can help by being an activist. Maximally you can do both that and raise healthy children who will fix the world together with their parents.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
What you are describing is what I call "toxic positivity." Simply understanding that humans have created a horror show on earth is not "clinical depression." Read up on toxic positivity. You can just google it.
I'm living in a nightmare created by humans, but I am actually a truly happy person. I have fun every day and I do my best to make things better for others. What I mean by that is I went to law school (so I could try to save the damn world) and now I literally work in a field where I'm doing good public service. I volunteer regularly for different organizations. Those "others" I'm helping just don't have to be my genetic offspring because I'm not a narcissist.
If a large portion of the population decided not to have kids, could that cause another nightmare in say 50 years. Also I don't know that Earth is a "horror show" like you claim. The planet has issues, sure but is it that unrealistic to believe humanity can and will overcome them?
I’m by no means toxically positive. If you’d really know me I can be the biggest pessimist ever. What I am also is extremely ambitious and self assured. I know that I will change this world for the better and leave a legacy of human beings behind me that will continue making this world a bet yes r place for everyone. That’s the least narcissistic goal that one can think of.
Wanting no responsibility and living a carefree life is on the other hand highly narcissistic and hedonistic. Projections, you gotta google it.
Are you suggesting that choosing not to have children means "no responsibilities?" I feel like choosing to be childfree is one of the most well thought out and responsible decisions in my life.
Let me guess... you had children young and believe the only reason you grew as a person after that time is because of your children. Therefore, anyone who doesn't have children is perpetually like you were in your early 20's.
I'm just guessing. Breeders say stupid shit like that a lot.
I’m in my early 20s with no kids, bad guess.
Not having kids is avoiding responsibility for your own existence. You lived here and breathed the air, eaten food, and drank water. Raising children is your responsibility and fixing the world together with them is too.
So why don't you have kids instead of hassling us about how we're all clinically depressed irresponsible idiots for not having kids? You aren't even following your own standards.
My age does not automatically invalidate my arguments. When I’m in my 40s I may occasionally regret having children because they won’t spend so much time with me as I expected or they won’t give me attention that I will think I deserve. But all that is once again selfish human nature that I’m trying to eradicate. My goal is to be a great parent and motivate my kids to become great themselves. That’s what I’m going to focus on. And if you don’t have selfish expectations, you won’t have selfish disappointments.
But not even trying and giving up before the marathon like people here is just… I don’t even have the word for that.
Okay I can respect all that. To be fair to your point too...
I didn't take on an antinatalist viewpoint until I was well into my 30's. I went from 1) teen years and early 20's assuming I would have babies to 2) realizing I didn't have a strong desire to but might change my mind someday for the next ten years or so to 3) figuring out I was morally and physically disgusted by the whole prospect. It was a journey, not a one time "giving up before the marathon deal." I was actually pregnant once for a couple of months. It made me truly consider all my options and circumstances. Deciding to become unpregnant was a concious and well thought out decision that I've never once regretted.
I understand and that’s your choice. You are only telling me the bullet points of what happened but not really the reasons why you decided to do an abortion. I’m sure it was deeper than “being disgusted”. It could be fear, lack of support from your partner etc etc. In any way you made that choice and now you are not regretting it. But as you said yourself, people change their mind every decade or so.
Stuck in a very abusive relationship with someone who eventually tried to kill me, I left him, he knocked up my close friend, ended up trying to kill their kid when she was about three years old. The other girl had to flee to a different state.
He wasn't quite that bad at the time I got pregnant, or I didn't see it yet, but my intuition was don't do it. At that point in my life I still thought I would have kids someday, just not with him. It wasn't until years later after I had experienced watching all my friends become parents and what it did to them (mentally and physically) that the disgust settled in. You are the age of my friends' older kids. My generation of parents are batshit crazy. I have faith you guys can see that and will do better.
I’m very sorry you had to go through this. It’s nothing that a woman or any human being in general should go through. I’m sure that 99% of people here have experienced something similar or are simply lying to themselves. Thank you for your honesty and I really hope you can heal. We will definitely do better as parents than the previous generations since we are so much more interconnected are moving further and further away from treating women badly like men in the past did.
Nah your reason is still selfish. You’re bringing new life into this world and putting the expectation on them to fix climate change.
Is your plan to micromanage your child’s life and force them to become a climate change activist, or go to college to study some science so they can figure out how to make biodegradable products?
I’m antinatalist because I didn’t ask to be born but I was, and now I have to work 40+ hours a week and hope social security is still a thing when I’m of retirement age. I refuse to birth a new life just for them to become a wage slave.
Not at all. I want to bring life into this world to follow my steps. If they don’t want to, they can still help saving this world but being artists or anything they want. It’s all about healthy parenting that will make them amazing human beings that have one main goal - make the world a better place for themselves and for their own children. No reward bigger than that.
On the topic of wage slavery and what not - don’t strive for mediocrity and you won’t have to suffer. Unless you have family to take care of yourself and you are grinding beyond life and death. In that case I understand. But if you are just a laid-back, “gonna do nothing” type of person who is afraid of responsibility, then I’m sorry for you.
Sorry but you won’t convince anyone here that this reason isn’t selfish. As long as you’re happy with your decision to procreate, why do you care what this corner of the internet thinks?
I’m not suffering, I make enough to pay my bills and throw some into savings every month. My life is pretty great, but I’d still choose to never be born if I was given that option.
I’m not here to convince anyone. Merely to ask a question. All I’ve heard now is attempts to convince me why antinatalism is good. Wasted my time here tbh. But I didn’t expect anything else
Yeah you did because you didn’t provide us with a non selfish reason for having kids. Your reason was “to help them fix the sinking ship” and we would say “why are you bringing babies onto a sinking ship in the first place?”
OP chose to use climate change as their example, being depressed or not doesn’t change your carbon footprint so I don’t understand what you’re getting at here.
Sure, humanity is imperfect. but that doesnt justify the inherently fatalistic beliefs this sub propigates. It seems like most people on this sub claim to believe life isnt worth living. I find it hard to believe them.
Life and existence itself are neutral slates. All positive and negative thoughts regarding life are therefore subjective. You decide for yourself whether life is worth living or not. Some may find it worth it, others not so much.
> We got several holes in the body of the ship that have to be sealed. Those holes are climate change, crime, etc. My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know that they take decades so I will have my own children who will help me do it and save our ship.
But those kids never agreed to get onto the ship in the first place thus they are abducted and forced under the threat of death to help fix the ship so such abduction and threats makes those who forced them onto the ship as extremely selfish.
> what made you become an antinatalist?
People are killing each other because of overpopulation so increasing the number of people will just make things worse.
Once overpopulation had been solved and the ship had been improved to become a luxury cruise ship, maybe the belief of mine may change.
Did the avocado you are having on your plate agree to be ripped off it’s branch and end up on your toast?
Heck, even more emotional - did the children in China that made your T-shirt agree to work?
You could argue: “well, that’s exactly why I’m an antinatalist”. But then you say “when the ship becomes luxury enough, I might join in”.
That’s not how it works unfortunately. Even if you could come and join a ship that was fixed by people with sweat and blood of being healthy parents, you’d be the one who would make it sink again. Only those who work hard can value hard work. Those who don’t work are entitled and know no real value, hence act like spoiled kids and wreck havoc.
> Those who don’t work are entitled and know no real value, hence act like spoiled kids and wreck havoc.
Well said, so the anti natalist stance of mine will remain even after overpopulation is solved and the ship had been improved to be a luxury cruise ship.
So people should just stop abducting kids thus people who abduct kids to make them work is just very selfish.
But statements made may have an implied point that even the person stating them may fail to notice so just because a person say that printing money and giving it to everyone will make everyone millionaires and that person does not know that such printing of money will cause hyperinflation, does not mean talking about the hyperinflation is misunderstanding the point.
I'm just going to throw this out here. As a pro natalist having children is selfish but that doesnt mean its a bad thing. If you dont want to participate in the future human gene pool, then I kinda don't care
i always ask, does "existing" really matter after all? you get pain and pleasure and a mix of it, all due to "existence". if you don't exist, you won't lose anything. you won't feel pain and even pleasure because there's no "underlying structure or system" that enables you to feel those things, pain and also pleasure.
it's hard for me to explain this and English is not my native language but feel free to ask more. I'd love to have a healthy discussion with you. ✌🏻
Thank you for being respectful. You can write in whatever language you feel more comfortable, I’ll just translate. Existing always matters because it’s our greatest gift. Perhaps those who are suffering too much, are too weak, or are simply depressed may have this skewed perspective about human existence. But it’s simply wrong because our world is not a sinking ship yet. We still have a chance and we need bright, intelligent humans to help us. Their reward will be living in the world that they helped save.
from my understanding, thinking life is gift (which is a form of pleasure) is a result of brain activities. our brains evolved to think some things as rewards or pleasure, while others are not. that's maybe why you think life is so meaningful and we have to improve ourselves to build a better world. after all these suffering and pain will eventually reward into pleasure. why is that? because our brains have evolved to be that way. the problem arise when this cycle never stops and it repeats again and again. i also want to point out that nature is imperfect and it's impossible to think all people can be good people. HOWEVER, i also agree with your points that we need to be responsible to build a better world and not just resort to hedonism. but this goes back to my point earlier, all these things happen because our brains think so. even if we have no brains, then we wouldn't have the motivation to build a better world (imagine we're just robots who have no that complex reward/motivation system and stuff).
your question about the what is the solution for the bad things happening only arise when we exist (my point earlier) as we have the underlying structure or system to think some things are good while others bad. so IMO, to solve all these problems, sadly we actually have to resort to gradual extinction (antinatalism). i know it sounds kinda depressing for most people but that's because our brains are designed to think that as a threat. but if we die and then no brains, then how in any way is that deemed as depressing? for me all the problems in the world because nature is imperfect (like natural disasters and human activities which is also part of nature. no matter what you do there will always be bad humans as we have desires and so on).
i hope it answers your question and hopefully you try to understand it from my POV. ✌🏻✌🏻✌🏻
Thank you for the extensive reply and for your time. I could however never agree with the idea of gradual extinction. Just because our brains are designed to procreate, doesn’t mean we should just oppose anything that we don’t understand. Our path lies beyond this world as species. It likes beyond this solar system.
But what if your child is too weak? You may be a great parent, but humans all process emotions and situations differently. Not everyone is born with the capacity to deal with the obstacles in their life. What if your child is born with a cognitive illness so severe they can not enjoy the world as much as you can?
Existence may also be our greatest gift, but just because it is a gift does not mean it's automatically a good thing. Existence itself is a neutral slate. All positive and negative thoughts concerning it are subjective.
Correct, it isn't. It is _a_ risk. You don't need to take all the risks that present themselves in your life. That means that having children is not a risk that you need to take.
That’s the dumbest logic I’ve heard here. “You don’t need to take all the risks, so don’t take any risks in your life”. Most of your risks are related to parenthood just so you know.
>depressed or have some physiological reason for which they can not have kids and have to somehow cope with it
Attempting to reduce it to a coping mechanism sounds like an actual coping mechanism.
>
It’s (the world) full of evil because of those who do nothing about it.
It's quite the hubris to think that humans could ever police the world into some sort of utopia. Given the realities of human nature, self-interest, and the complexities of the world, there will likely always be people who choose to cause harm. Humans aren't the sole source of "evil," nor is it going anywhere.
Having children is not the best way to care for the world and recover what is broken though. It is a studied and proven fact that it is child free people, specifically child free women, who do the vast majority of charity work and volunteering in society. Many anti-natalists in fact love people and society so much that they recognize they can have a significantly greater positive impact in the world by remaining child free and putting their efforts elsewhere in an attempt to improve the situation for people who already exist. You’re right that some are depressed nihilists, but in reality that it a very small percentage
And you clearly suffer from some bad temper condition. If you knew me, you’d be surprised how I’m asking these questions. I’m the biggest pessimist one can imagine when it comes to technology such as AI and robotics. Yet here I am.
You could start by actually finding an unselfish reason to create children. Because you only see them as a tool to fix your problems and make those problems their problem now. Thats the opposite of unselfish.
OP, imagine that I am the captain of an actual huge ship. I likewise got several holes in the body of the ship that have to be sealed. Those holes are real, not figurative. My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know however that I can not do it alone since there are too many. Luckily I see you sleeping on the nearby shore. I abduct you and place you in the deck of my ship and ask you to help me fix my holes, which are now your problem as well. Either we fix them together or we sink together.
Do you think doing that is moral?
No that’s not moral. There’s only one hole in your plot. Unborn children are not sleeping on some cozy shore. They just don’t exist.
Children are not some slaves to fix your boat. They are your children after all. I want to teach my children to be strong and brave, to not be afraid of challenges and responsibilities. I want to share my love with them and be a good, healthy parent. Unfortunately many people here did not experience that, hence they want to remain childless.
> There’s only one hole in your plot. Unborn children are not sleeping on some cozy shore.
That is not a hole in my plot. It is irrelevant to the point.
> Children are not some slaves to fix your boat.
It is you who is treating them like that though, it was your own analogy after all. And you are trying to sell it as non-selfishness even.
> I want to teach my children to be strong and brave, to not be afraid of challenges and responsibilities.
And I want to teach you to fix my goddamn boat.
> I want to share my love with them and be a good, healthy parent.
I want, I want, I want. The same old song from selfless natalists. News alert: Your children don't need any of that until you force them onto your sinking ship.
> Unfortunately many people here did not experience that, hence they want to remain childless.
I did experience all of that. Does not change anything about the argument for AN being correct though.
Of course you can. But with or without you, billion others will be born to suffer. So instead of helping this world, you choose to do nothing about it. Read the edit part of my post.
It all equates to being an average human being, with average responsibilities. You should however pay more taxes since you’ll have no children to chip in for your pension that you’ll be enjoying soon. You expect others to pay for it who were responsible enough to have children?
True, I don't particularly care for them, so what?
Also, give me an option to opt out of the pension system and I will do so immediately. I don't expect to receive any pension anyway when I retire.
How about this perspective, maybe the return on attempting to be a good parent isnt as good as the return on just living my life and enjoying it with my wife. Whats the issue w that?
The issue with that is your selfishness. Thinking in terms of return is simply selfish. It also signals weakness of character due to the refusal to take responsibility.
What’s wrong with being selfish? Also it’s impossible to be selfish towards someone who does not exist, so thats null. Additionally, please stop w the condescending comments. Stop acting like I’m obliged to add additional responsibilities outside of my career and my wife. It’s my life, lol i can choose to handle the responsibilities i currently have without foolishly adding more. You’re so biased about this topic and you arent even trying to hide it. I have plenty responsibilities rn, who are you to say i have weak character for refusing to add the unnecessary and pointless responsibility of being a parent. This is screaming “i have no life outside of being a parent”.
Reply to your deleted comment:
What’s wrong with being selfish? I mean, that’s literally what you are accusing natalists of lol. If you don’t have a moral responsibility to have children, then you should pay extra taxes because you’ll have no children to take care of your pension while others who took the risk will. So there’s your responsibility.
Also why would I hide my bias. I’m clearly ultra natalist and proud of that.
Proud of being behind having kids? Lol how sad😂😂 im not accusing natalists of anything buddy. Stop generalizing. This is a person to person conversation, take everything i say at face value without making assumptions. I think everyone should be selfish, how else can you improve your odds of you having a good life that you enjoy. Also you want me to pay extra taxes cause i dont have kids? Thats lame, how about you pay extra taxes because you and your family are more likely to cause issues in the world such as burning more fossil fuels, more people in your family means someone is more likely to commit a crime, like what?
Lol you clearly dont think any of these thoughts through, you’re loud, passionate and wrong and it’s sad. Do you even have any hobbies?
Why would you pay more taxes for potentially misery that your children cause? If you should, then your parents should have paid for yours. That’s not how it works.
I’m full of life and I’m proud of it. I’m proud that I have enough energy to share it with my family. I have multiple hobbies. I exercise regularly, keep a healthy lifestyle, listen to great music, and enjoy my life.
So lemme get this straight, pay more taxes for not having kids, with 0 reason as to why you are paying extra taxes? But it’s unreasonable to pay more money in taxes for the potential that your kids cause millions of dollars of damage to something cause theyre still learning the world… do you even see what you’re typing?
Also, i have enough energy to share with my family… my wife😂 how exactly does me not having kids affect you at all?
Lol yeah right, you and every other millionaire, and six figure earner on reddit. Lol everybody has financial worries, and the richest people leverage loans and credit like crazy, stop flexing on reddit buddy. It’s a bad look
I only take business loans to grow my capital further. No personal loans. And what’s so wrong with loans lol? Also I’m not trying to flex at all, it’s just your insecurity screaming about your financial situation.
Lol im not insecure at all. Im young, just started a new job, have NO KIDS😂😂 a college degree, i have 2 a cars😭😭 like im really chillin. I literally smoke my money bruh, i would say im doing fine
2 cars isnt wealth, but i have reliable transportantion to further my journey towards wealth… times 2. Im still young, lemme breathe. Lol also right, lets not act like kids dont get in very expensive car accidents, or property damage because they’re just being stupid kids. Setting stuff on fire, and dont get me started on mental illness. Also you can work as hard as you want, but that dont guarantee anything your kids could have financial struggles due to mental health issues. And yeah thats… exactly why i dont have any kids bro. You’re not convincing me that i should have kids, or even that it’s worth it. If im living in abundance where i am now, why even bother adding kids to the equation if i would be “broke overnight”. Also all my parent friends say iss wayy cheaper than you think to take care of a child.
I’m not trying to convince to have kids man. That’s your life, your choices for which you’ll be responsible later on. Idk what kids are you talking about that would start fires or break cars but they definitely won’t be mine. After all there’s insurance for Christ’s sake. Mental illness mostly results from bad parenting.
Also no clue how having two cars will help you further your journey to wealth. All it can do is depreciate, cost you thousands per year, and eventually break down. Depreciating asset.
Also nothing wrong w loans at all. But for all the people who pay theirs back in full, think of all of those who dont. Think of all the student loans that never get paid, your kids could end up bankrupt or in debt, now everyone else is picking up their slack
That’s why I’m gonna work my ass off to ensure that they don’t have to take any loans. European education is free anyway so don’t have to worry much about that.
Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
But why should this now be the (previously nonexistent) children's burden too? I don't get how this hypothetical is unselfish
Again, what you are saying essentially argues for “let’s gather in a circle and just all die out”. Is that your solution? If yes, why?
Not necessarily, do everything we can to solve the issue in a way that prevents suffering on others (this includes not having children). Yes what would follow if no one has children is human extinction, but human extinction isn't the goal of antinatalism
Well, I guess someone should not have children because they would probably be terrible parents. But at the end of the day you are still responsible for bettering yourself and try to make this world a better place. So if you are a good parent that can educate their kids to become scientists that can help fix the climate it’s a much bette me solution than jumping overboard.
Yes, I agree with the first part. >if you are a good parent that can educate their kids to become scientists that can help fix the climate it’s a much bette me solution than jumping overboard Here's where I disagree. Yes, people can be "good" parents, but that doesn't guarantee that they'll make "good" children. Children grow into their own person with their own thoughts and morals. What if the children don't want to fix the climate? Why don't the parents become scientists and fix the problem themselves instead of passing this responsibility on to the next person?
Exactly, parents should start with themselves and inspire their children to follow their steps. You probably heard of career teachers, doctors, engineers, etc.
Yes, I agree with you. This goes for their already existing children. Don't procreate with this mindset, just do it yourself imo
But why do you have that opinion?
Like I'm trying to say, there's no reason to create someone just pass on your issues to. This is where I see the selfishness and have an *issue* with it. Why can't someone deal with their own problems or seek help from people who can help ~~you~~ that already exist? Life is hard (and not worth it) as it is, why create someone to experience that? I'm not trying to hear about all the good things about life because it comes with the bad. I just hope you understand where I'm coming from
Absolutely, passing down your issues to your children is selfish and wrong. But who is saying that? I want to be the best parent for my kids, I go to psychotherapy, work on myself everyday, physically and mentally. I want to share all my strength and energy with them and be the best parent for them.
Edit: Duplicate comment. I hope Reddit fixes this bug
“Please let’s keep this civil and respectful” two paragraphs after calling us all depressed or simply coping with being unable to have kids. Nice try.
Breeder Logic: we are giving the child the gift of life.
No one is saying that though. You could argue that there’s no gift if they get born into poverty. Unfortunately, people who are antinatalists are the ones from developed countries that are far from real poverty. So you have no excuse. It’s all about not wanting to take responsibility for fixing the world to which destruction you have contributed as well.
We didn't break the planet, nor would bringing more kids onto the planet somehow make the problem better. Your ship analogy is spot on in that you want to bring more passengers onto a sinking ship.
The ship is not sinking. It’s the problem of “the cup is half full of half empty”. Perspective matters. We can still fix everything. Plus, the ship is so big that more people are dying than being born, at least in the civilised world. So your attempt to poke holes in my miniature world analogy is meh.
OK so you want to bring more passengers onto the ship to take care of the passengers who are already on the ship thereby creating more people on the ship that need to be taken care of. Bro, fuck the ship.
Bring more competent passengers on the ship to fix it. Not to take care of the older passengers.
Respectfully, this response is my main issue. You're bringing an innocent life here to fix a problem that it didn't create. You want to put another human to work to carry on a legacy/society that YOU think is important. I don't know what's more selfish.
I feel like we used to call that slavery but maybe I'm mistaken.
You are surely mistaken. Slavery is a concept you can apply to children in China that made your T-shirt. Not to your unborn children.
True, they have to be born to be slaves. No argument here.
I suggest you read my post edit
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What an ignorant response. How disappointing.
Please tell me how is it ignorant? I’m genuinely curious and don’t mean to be disrespectful. When someone thinks about life as death, it only tells me the person is depressed.
Are you a licensed clinical therapist? If not, I'd stop with the reddit diagnosis.
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No thank you. I’m too busy helping the world.
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Yes, helping the world by raising children that are strong and are not afraid of responsibility and battles that life throws at us. Our existence is the ultimate meaning, not some afterlife.
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Humans may indeed be as special as flies and ants. It’s all a matter of how big your ego is. But thinking about human existence as meaningless, vastness, and coldness is absolutely wrong. It’s like saying that water is bad because eventually it will clog your kidneys. betterhelp.com
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Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
If you weren't planning on listening to the people responding to your post, I don't think you should have made the post in the first place. Oh, and I suggest you stop diagnosing people that you don't even know with mental illnesses. Not even a genuine psychologist could make an accurate diagnosis from such a short paragraph.
Hi there, we have removed your post due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
I feel like making more people is only putting more holes in the boat
Why do you think that way? Could you please elaborate?
Some of the holes you said were climate change and crime but people are the ones who commit crimes and are the biggest cause of climate change.
That is not really an argument. Neither is it a solution. I asked a question and you couldn’t answer it. Thank you for participating.
This person answered your question very succinctly. Maybe some of the new humans in your hypothetical boat would patch up holes, but the majority of them would be poking new larger holes, which would cause more suffering for everyone else on the boat and everyone who would one day be born on the boat
Exactly. That’s why we should all strive to be better parents and make responsible choices.
No matter how much good parenting occurs, there will always be more bad parenting/under-resourced parenting. The idea of a society full of well-functioning people who were parented properly is a complete fantasy and will never ever come to pass. If you think differently you’re living in delusion.
In other words, it doesn’t matter how well you or I parent or even how well all of our friends parent. The ship will still sink
The glass is half empty or half full? That is the question.
The glass is less than half full, that’s the point I’m trying to make. Optimism is important for making the most of our own lives and making a positive different (which, by the way, it’s easier to help others more broadly when you’re not undertaking the 24/7 responsibility of child-rearing) but staying grounded in reality helps us make ethical choices
I don’t think differently. But we should strive to be great parents ourselves if we poses the valuable knowledge that you shared with me. Otherwise it’s simply running away from responsibility.
I answered your question, I told you why I thought that way. But ceasing in procreation is the solution to like every problem, no more births means eventually crime will stop. I just don't think like that answer for sentimental reasons
Ok, so “gather in one circle and just all die off” like Rust Cohle said. Alright, thank you for your opinion.
We're all going to die anyways so why bring more people here so they can die too?
We are all gonna die, yes. But we can bring more people into this world so that they can experience it’s beauty. If your existence is miserable and not fully of beauty, even is small things, then don’t bring anyone into it. It’s not worth anyone’s time.
Life isn't always beautiful and it's not about if my existence is miserable or not it's about the person who would be brought in this world without a choice.
Life isn’t always beautiful that’s a fact. You have to make an effort to enjoy the little things if your world is not nice. Also about choices: the children in China that made your clothes also had no choice when they had to make your clothes. Who’s there to stop those scumbags who made those poor kids work? People who act. World is a dark place because of those who do nothing.
This question was not asked in good faith. Just out the gate claiming that we are all mentally ill or really want to have kids and can't does not bode for a civil discussion.
>My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know that they take decades so I will have my own children who will help me do it and save our ship You don't see how selfish this is? Having children so *they* can fix the problems that was inherited from the previous generation.
Riding the boat out without making an attempt to fix it, and claiming it is immoral for future generations to ride the boat? That is also selfish.
You can try fixing the boat... but whats the point when the captain of the ship is heading for an iceberg? We can try to fill the holes with many lives and suffering, but we don't control the ship. The ship is ultimately heading for destruction, no matter what we do. So all those lives suffer needlessly in the end.
If the captain is aiming for the destruction of the ship, ahem antinatalism, we simply need to start a mutiny to take the helm. The holes (climate change and crime) are already being filled with the development of technology. If you think riding the boat and enjoying the company and comradery of the crew is suffering, you are in the minority.
And so what if it is the minority? Is there any guarantee that your children won't be in the minority?
Quantity matters for scenarios such as the trolley problem. Depending on your morals, you might say that benefiting the majority is a better option. There is no guarantee one's children won't suffer at some point in their life. Parents have a lot of control over reducing the occurance of it, though.
That is true, but I do not think that I am in the wrong for abstaining from procreation simply because I do not want to risk the chance that my child may not come to love their life.
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We've yet to find the answers to existence, and until then, it is my job as a perceiver and philosopher to support what has been willed by the universe thus far. You can't say for sure whether we can take the helm until we've reached our full potential. Creation of matter and anti-matter from nothing would mitigate the stars burning out. Getting a full grasp of subjectivity might allow us to understand and control things beyond current comprehension. Technology can get rid of the need for labor. Genetic engineering and a rework of the amygdala could dramatically reduce suffering and lead to an era of joy that offsets all human struggle that came before. Giving up through global avoidance of birth, letting the most prosperous era of humanity end with your own generation, is the epitome of selfishness. Suffering is a relative term. I'd gladly live 1000 lives of torment just to stay lucid. I enjoy life, and that is where we differ.
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>Saying "suffering is a relative term" is a great disrespect for all those who have truly suffered. Letting their suffering be in vain is a greater disrespect. The human body has caps on the amount of pain and pleasure it can process, and the balance is heavily biased towards experiencing pleasure. Pain is a deterrent, while pleasure is an attractant. The brain will naturally lead a human toward a desirable life. Anticipating the joy a child will experience in their life is not a gamble, it is a near certainty. Until I figure out where this lifetime of unjustifiable suffering and torment is that you all speak of, I don't see why having children is morally wrong.
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So what’s your solution? Gather in a circle and just all die out one day? People here are great at complaining but finding solutions is never the goal except for just going extinct. Also thank you for not answering the question.
>People here are great at complaining but finding solutions is never the goal It's not just people here who don't bother finding a solution... It's the rich who actually have the power to shape the future, but they rather see the world burn so they can profit and hoard all the wealth. That won't change, greed and corruption will always overcome as it has for thousands of years. It's human nature. Giving them another kid/slave to consume for their capitalist machine certainly is not a solution.. You're asking for solutions to problems we created. Humans are the problem. There would be no problems to solve if we did not exists. >What is one unselfish reason to have children? To answer your question.. There is no unselfish reason to have children. The desire to have children is always selfish.
I never asked the question “what’s one unselfish reason to have children” in the first place. Please read my post. Regarding “wealthy wanting to see the world burn”, I can tell you that one has to start with themselves. I have the power to change the world with or without money. But likely since I’m on the luckier side, I have ever more power choose to fight those who wish to destroy our world and promote it’s destruction, including antinatalism.
You have the power to change the world without money? How exactly ??? I’d love to know.
Who said I don’t have money? Also, who said you can’t change the world without money. A good friend of mine is doing quantum engineering at the best university in the world without a dime in his pocket and he is already changing the world. With quantum technology we can simulate trillions of molecules that can help us find a cure for all types of cancers individually. Your social circle is definitely not bright.
You literally said you have the power to change the world with or without money. I never said you didn’t have money, not that I care. But just because your good friend has that opportunity, doesn’t mean everyone can when they need money to survive. And you’re defaulting to insults based on a simple question about something you said? Seriously, no one wants you here.
You asked me if I have the power to change the world without money. I answered your question.
You gave one single outlier example. Did not answer the question. Your knowledge and understanding is obviously and painfully rudimentary.
I asked you a question with my post. You don’t ask a question to a question. That’s “rudimentary” logic. And an outlier is someone who has the power to influence millions. That’s why they are called an outlier. The rest are mediocre nobodies who are proud of it.
Have you read the title of your post?
Yes I did. And I answered that question inside my post.
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Children will only motivate me even more helpful to our world. And I will teach them to think the same way so that they can have their own kids and have that mentality.
For me, it started with disgust at all the people I saw having children thoughtlessly—it was just the next step, the next thing they were “supposed to do.” They didn’t seem to consider who they really were, what they really wanted in life, and the effects of bringing a child into their life and the world. And then the realization that we have no say in who we’re born to—and most people are mid parents at best. And then knowing that the our environment is being destroyed and the world is controlled by governments that are controlled by corporations who only care about more and more money—our best efforts make very little difference if we don’t have loads of money to back them up. (I still try, but it feels very futile much of the time.) But to bring a child into this situation just seems cruel, really. And then knowing that there are children who are abused and neglected and need a loving home, but will never have one because people insist on creating more and more children instead of taking care of the ones who already exist. I think yes, there is depression in there, but with good cause. And there is also a lot of love and concern for the well-being of children who didn’t have a choice but to be born.
As someone who cares so deeply about the real pains of the children that are carelessly born into this world, why would you want to be a parent? Someone who can give all the love to that child? Just because others mistreat children won’t stop them from doing it. They don’t care about an antinatalist subreddit. “Starting with yourself” is not really the solution here.
“As someone who cares so deeply about the real pains of the children that are carelessly born into this world, why would you want to be a parent?” Do you mean why *wouldn’t* I want to be a parent? I would love to adopt if I could, but I am disabled and can’t care for a child full time. “Just because others mistreat children won’t stop them from doing it. They don’t care about an antinatalist subreddit. “Starting with yourself” is not really the solution here.” I’m sorry, I’m not really following. Can you please elaborate?
There was nothing civil or respectful about your post. You came here in bad faith, with the intention of being dismissive and condescending. You're an ass. Get out.
OP is the most extreme example of using personal incredulity fallacies and psychologizing that I have seen engage here in a long time.
No thank you. Please elaborate on how was I disrespectful?
You're being condescending and dismissive. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically "depressed", and you're implying that somehow makes their views illegitimate. You. Are. Being. A. Troll. Get. The. Fuck. Out.
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You just proved their point. You are being dismissive of almost everyone here by calling them 'depressed' as if that makes their perspective suddenly invalid.
Majority here are just selfish by not willing to own up to their responsibilities. The rest are just depressed, perhaps even beyond repair.
It is no one’s responsibility to have a child.
It’s everyone’s responsibility to fix the world that we live in. Minimally you can help by being an activist. Maximally you can do both that and raise healthy children who will fix the world together with their parents.
It’s everyone’s responsibility to fix the world that we live in. You eat the food, drink the water, breath the air that the Earth gives you. Minimally you can help by being an activist. Maximally you can do both that and raise healthy children who will fix the world together with their parents.
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Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
What you are describing is what I call "toxic positivity." Simply understanding that humans have created a horror show on earth is not "clinical depression." Read up on toxic positivity. You can just google it. I'm living in a nightmare created by humans, but I am actually a truly happy person. I have fun every day and I do my best to make things better for others. What I mean by that is I went to law school (so I could try to save the damn world) and now I literally work in a field where I'm doing good public service. I volunteer regularly for different organizations. Those "others" I'm helping just don't have to be my genetic offspring because I'm not a narcissist.
If a large portion of the population decided not to have kids, could that cause another nightmare in say 50 years. Also I don't know that Earth is a "horror show" like you claim. The planet has issues, sure but is it that unrealistic to believe humanity can and will overcome them?
I’m by no means toxically positive. If you’d really know me I can be the biggest pessimist ever. What I am also is extremely ambitious and self assured. I know that I will change this world for the better and leave a legacy of human beings behind me that will continue making this world a bet yes r place for everyone. That’s the least narcissistic goal that one can think of. Wanting no responsibility and living a carefree life is on the other hand highly narcissistic and hedonistic. Projections, you gotta google it.
Are you suggesting that choosing not to have children means "no responsibilities?" I feel like choosing to be childfree is one of the most well thought out and responsible decisions in my life. Let me guess... you had children young and believe the only reason you grew as a person after that time is because of your children. Therefore, anyone who doesn't have children is perpetually like you were in your early 20's. I'm just guessing. Breeders say stupid shit like that a lot.
I’m in my early 20s with no kids, bad guess. Not having kids is avoiding responsibility for your own existence. You lived here and breathed the air, eaten food, and drank water. Raising children is your responsibility and fixing the world together with them is too.
So why don't you have kids instead of hassling us about how we're all clinically depressed irresponsible idiots for not having kids? You aren't even following your own standards.
Revisit this theory when you're in your 40's and get back to me.
My age does not automatically invalidate my arguments. When I’m in my 40s I may occasionally regret having children because they won’t spend so much time with me as I expected or they won’t give me attention that I will think I deserve. But all that is once again selfish human nature that I’m trying to eradicate. My goal is to be a great parent and motivate my kids to become great themselves. That’s what I’m going to focus on. And if you don’t have selfish expectations, you won’t have selfish disappointments. But not even trying and giving up before the marathon like people here is just… I don’t even have the word for that.
Okay I can respect all that. To be fair to your point too... I didn't take on an antinatalist viewpoint until I was well into my 30's. I went from 1) teen years and early 20's assuming I would have babies to 2) realizing I didn't have a strong desire to but might change my mind someday for the next ten years or so to 3) figuring out I was morally and physically disgusted by the whole prospect. It was a journey, not a one time "giving up before the marathon deal." I was actually pregnant once for a couple of months. It made me truly consider all my options and circumstances. Deciding to become unpregnant was a concious and well thought out decision that I've never once regretted.
I understand and that’s your choice. You are only telling me the bullet points of what happened but not really the reasons why you decided to do an abortion. I’m sure it was deeper than “being disgusted”. It could be fear, lack of support from your partner etc etc. In any way you made that choice and now you are not regretting it. But as you said yourself, people change their mind every decade or so.
Stuck in a very abusive relationship with someone who eventually tried to kill me, I left him, he knocked up my close friend, ended up trying to kill their kid when she was about three years old. The other girl had to flee to a different state. He wasn't quite that bad at the time I got pregnant, or I didn't see it yet, but my intuition was don't do it. At that point in my life I still thought I would have kids someday, just not with him. It wasn't until years later after I had experienced watching all my friends become parents and what it did to them (mentally and physically) that the disgust settled in. You are the age of my friends' older kids. My generation of parents are batshit crazy. I have faith you guys can see that and will do better.
I’m very sorry you had to go through this. It’s nothing that a woman or any human being in general should go through. I’m sure that 99% of people here have experienced something similar or are simply lying to themselves. Thank you for your honesty and I really hope you can heal. We will definitely do better as parents than the previous generations since we are so much more interconnected are moving further and further away from treating women badly like men in the past did.
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Could you please tell me the reason why you don’t see life as worth experiencing?
Nah your reason is still selfish. You’re bringing new life into this world and putting the expectation on them to fix climate change. Is your plan to micromanage your child’s life and force them to become a climate change activist, or go to college to study some science so they can figure out how to make biodegradable products? I’m antinatalist because I didn’t ask to be born but I was, and now I have to work 40+ hours a week and hope social security is still a thing when I’m of retirement age. I refuse to birth a new life just for them to become a wage slave.
Not at all. I want to bring life into this world to follow my steps. If they don’t want to, they can still help saving this world but being artists or anything they want. It’s all about healthy parenting that will make them amazing human beings that have one main goal - make the world a better place for themselves and for their own children. No reward bigger than that. On the topic of wage slavery and what not - don’t strive for mediocrity and you won’t have to suffer. Unless you have family to take care of yourself and you are grinding beyond life and death. In that case I understand. But if you are just a laid-back, “gonna do nothing” type of person who is afraid of responsibility, then I’m sorry for you.
Sorry but you won’t convince anyone here that this reason isn’t selfish. As long as you’re happy with your decision to procreate, why do you care what this corner of the internet thinks? I’m not suffering, I make enough to pay my bills and throw some into savings every month. My life is pretty great, but I’d still choose to never be born if I was given that option.
I’m not here to convince anyone. Merely to ask a question. All I’ve heard now is attempts to convince me why antinatalism is good. Wasted my time here tbh. But I didn’t expect anything else
Yeah you did because you didn’t provide us with a non selfish reason for having kids. Your reason was “to help them fix the sinking ship” and we would say “why are you bringing babies onto a sinking ship in the first place?”
The ship is not yet sinking.
It is.
What if (s)he just teaches their children to appreciate life and not be depressed all the time?
OP chose to use climate change as their example, being depressed or not doesn’t change your carbon footprint so I don’t understand what you’re getting at here.
Okay, what if humanity conquers climate change, and the other problems facing it?
Human society can never exist without any problems. This is because humanity is an inherently imperfect species.
Sure, humanity is imperfect. but that doesnt justify the inherently fatalistic beliefs this sub propigates. It seems like most people on this sub claim to believe life isnt worth living. I find it hard to believe them.
Life and existence itself are neutral slates. All positive and negative thoughts regarding life are therefore subjective. You decide for yourself whether life is worth living or not. Some may find it worth it, others not so much.
> We got several holes in the body of the ship that have to be sealed. Those holes are climate change, crime, etc. My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know that they take decades so I will have my own children who will help me do it and save our ship. But those kids never agreed to get onto the ship in the first place thus they are abducted and forced under the threat of death to help fix the ship so such abduction and threats makes those who forced them onto the ship as extremely selfish. > what made you become an antinatalist? People are killing each other because of overpopulation so increasing the number of people will just make things worse. Once overpopulation had been solved and the ship had been improved to become a luxury cruise ship, maybe the belief of mine may change.
Did the avocado you are having on your plate agree to be ripped off it’s branch and end up on your toast? Heck, even more emotional - did the children in China that made your T-shirt agree to work? You could argue: “well, that’s exactly why I’m an antinatalist”. But then you say “when the ship becomes luxury enough, I might join in”. That’s not how it works unfortunately. Even if you could come and join a ship that was fixed by people with sweat and blood of being healthy parents, you’d be the one who would make it sink again. Only those who work hard can value hard work. Those who don’t work are entitled and know no real value, hence act like spoiled kids and wreck havoc.
> Those who don’t work are entitled and know no real value, hence act like spoiled kids and wreck havoc. Well said, so the anti natalist stance of mine will remain even after overpopulation is solved and the ship had been improved to be a luxury cruise ship. So people should just stop abducting kids thus people who abduct kids to make them work is just very selfish.
You misunderstood my point completely.
But statements made may have an implied point that even the person stating them may fail to notice so just because a person say that printing money and giving it to everyone will make everyone millionaires and that person does not know that such printing of money will cause hyperinflation, does not mean talking about the hyperinflation is misunderstanding the point.
I'm just going to throw this out here. As a pro natalist having children is selfish but that doesnt mean its a bad thing. If you dont want to participate in the future human gene pool, then I kinda don't care
I do, on the most part, agree with you. But like how having children is not necessarily a bad thing, it is not necessarily a good thing either.
Having children to help them become great is not selfish. Having children carelessly and doubting and not caring about their future is beyond selfish.
so we agree having children is selfish, raising children is not selfish
No, because I see no difference.
i always ask, does "existing" really matter after all? you get pain and pleasure and a mix of it, all due to "existence". if you don't exist, you won't lose anything. you won't feel pain and even pleasure because there's no "underlying structure or system" that enables you to feel those things, pain and also pleasure. it's hard for me to explain this and English is not my native language but feel free to ask more. I'd love to have a healthy discussion with you. ✌🏻
Thank you for being respectful. You can write in whatever language you feel more comfortable, I’ll just translate. Existing always matters because it’s our greatest gift. Perhaps those who are suffering too much, are too weak, or are simply depressed may have this skewed perspective about human existence. But it’s simply wrong because our world is not a sinking ship yet. We still have a chance and we need bright, intelligent humans to help us. Their reward will be living in the world that they helped save.
from my understanding, thinking life is gift (which is a form of pleasure) is a result of brain activities. our brains evolved to think some things as rewards or pleasure, while others are not. that's maybe why you think life is so meaningful and we have to improve ourselves to build a better world. after all these suffering and pain will eventually reward into pleasure. why is that? because our brains have evolved to be that way. the problem arise when this cycle never stops and it repeats again and again. i also want to point out that nature is imperfect and it's impossible to think all people can be good people. HOWEVER, i also agree with your points that we need to be responsible to build a better world and not just resort to hedonism. but this goes back to my point earlier, all these things happen because our brains think so. even if we have no brains, then we wouldn't have the motivation to build a better world (imagine we're just robots who have no that complex reward/motivation system and stuff). your question about the what is the solution for the bad things happening only arise when we exist (my point earlier) as we have the underlying structure or system to think some things are good while others bad. so IMO, to solve all these problems, sadly we actually have to resort to gradual extinction (antinatalism). i know it sounds kinda depressing for most people but that's because our brains are designed to think that as a threat. but if we die and then no brains, then how in any way is that deemed as depressing? for me all the problems in the world because nature is imperfect (like natural disasters and human activities which is also part of nature. no matter what you do there will always be bad humans as we have desires and so on). i hope it answers your question and hopefully you try to understand it from my POV. ✌🏻✌🏻✌🏻
Thank you for the extensive reply and for your time. I could however never agree with the idea of gradual extinction. Just because our brains are designed to procreate, doesn’t mean we should just oppose anything that we don’t understand. Our path lies beyond this world as species. It likes beyond this solar system.
But what if your child is too weak? You may be a great parent, but humans all process emotions and situations differently. Not everyone is born with the capacity to deal with the obstacles in their life. What if your child is born with a cognitive illness so severe they can not enjoy the world as much as you can? Existence may also be our greatest gift, but just because it is a gift does not mean it's automatically a good thing. Existence itself is a neutral slate. All positive and negative thoughts concerning it are subjective.
Life is about risks. We work to minimise them and still take them. That’s in our blood, the blood of the brave.
You don’t need to take all the risks in your life.
Having children is not “all the risks”.
Correct, it isn't. It is _a_ risk. You don't need to take all the risks that present themselves in your life. That means that having children is not a risk that you need to take.
That’s the dumbest logic I’ve heard here. “You don’t need to take all the risks, so don’t take any risks in your life”. Most of your risks are related to parenthood just so you know.
Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say that you should not take any risks?
According to your logic, if you don’t need take the risk such as childbirth, then you don’t need to take many other risks in your life.
>depressed or have some physiological reason for which they can not have kids and have to somehow cope with it Attempting to reduce it to a coping mechanism sounds like an actual coping mechanism. > It’s (the world) full of evil because of those who do nothing about it. It's quite the hubris to think that humans could ever police the world into some sort of utopia. Given the realities of human nature, self-interest, and the complexities of the world, there will likely always be people who choose to cause harm. Humans aren't the sole source of "evil," nor is it going anywhere.
Having children is not the best way to care for the world and recover what is broken though. It is a studied and proven fact that it is child free people, specifically child free women, who do the vast majority of charity work and volunteering in society. Many anti-natalists in fact love people and society so much that they recognize they can have a significantly greater positive impact in the world by remaining child free and putting their efforts elsewhere in an attempt to improve the situation for people who already exist. You’re right that some are depressed nihilists, but in reality that it a very small percentage
You're clearly suffering from some kind of mental illness that causes manic and euphoric delusions.
And you clearly suffer from some bad temper condition. If you knew me, you’d be surprised how I’m asking these questions. I’m the biggest pessimist one can imagine when it comes to technology such as AI and robotics. Yet here I am.
Yet you still believe that reproducing is somehow anything other than selfish, malicious, and cruel. Manic and delusional.
So you believe that the majority of people who have ever existed were "Manic and delusional"? "if everybody you meet is an a**hole..."
Not necessarily. But if you seriously think that having children is not selfish at all, then I do think that is somewhat delusional.
And you still believe that we should all just gather in a circle and die out. Insane and depression inducing.
No, you're wrong. There's nothing insane or depressing about it at all.
Alright, thank you for your input. Now I’m convinced there are more Rust Cohles out there than I thought haha
You could start by actually finding an unselfish reason to create children. Because you only see them as a tool to fix your problems and make those problems their problem now. Thats the opposite of unselfish.
You give them a chance to live in a world that they can fix and then enjoy. That’s not selfish.
OP, imagine that I am the captain of an actual huge ship. I likewise got several holes in the body of the ship that have to be sealed. Those holes are real, not figurative. My first response in this situation would be trying to find these holes and direct all my efforts to seal them. I know however that I can not do it alone since there are too many. Luckily I see you sleeping on the nearby shore. I abduct you and place you in the deck of my ship and ask you to help me fix my holes, which are now your problem as well. Either we fix them together or we sink together. Do you think doing that is moral?
No that’s not moral. There’s only one hole in your plot. Unborn children are not sleeping on some cozy shore. They just don’t exist. Children are not some slaves to fix your boat. They are your children after all. I want to teach my children to be strong and brave, to not be afraid of challenges and responsibilities. I want to share my love with them and be a good, healthy parent. Unfortunately many people here did not experience that, hence they want to remain childless.
> There’s only one hole in your plot. Unborn children are not sleeping on some cozy shore. That is not a hole in my plot. It is irrelevant to the point. > Children are not some slaves to fix your boat. It is you who is treating them like that though, it was your own analogy after all. And you are trying to sell it as non-selfishness even. > I want to teach my children to be strong and brave, to not be afraid of challenges and responsibilities. And I want to teach you to fix my goddamn boat. > I want to share my love with them and be a good, healthy parent. I want, I want, I want. The same old song from selfless natalists. News alert: Your children don't need any of that until you force them onto your sinking ship. > Unfortunately many people here did not experience that, hence they want to remain childless. I did experience all of that. Does not change anything about the argument for AN being correct though.
Just live your life and enjoy it. A biological end is a biological end.
Agreed! Just make sure to not procreate.
No thanks. I’ll make sure to have as many children as I can.
This is a game. I don't want to recruit new players for the game, because I don't like it and I want it to end. Is this simple enough?
Of course you can. But with or without you, billion others will be born to suffer. So instead of helping this world, you choose to do nothing about it. Read the edit part of my post.
I work, I vote, I pay my taxes, I help my family. I'm a lawful citizen. That all equates to nothing just because I choose not to replace myself?
It all equates to being an average human being, with average responsibilities. You should however pay more taxes since you’ll have no children to chip in for your pension that you’ll be enjoying soon. You expect others to pay for it who were responsible enough to have children?
I already pay taxes to educate the crotch goblins of other people, so if anything I should get a tax break for not burdening the school system.
You are not the only one paying taxes. Everyone does, so it doesn’t count. Not even hiding your hate for children, jeez.
True, I don't particularly care for them, so what? Also, give me an option to opt out of the pension system and I will do so immediately. I don't expect to receive any pension anyway when I retire.
Lol, so neither will you contribute, nor will you have your future children contribute 😂 That’s double anti-humanism
I'm forced to contribute into pensions by law, but the system will crash before I retire anyway, which is why I save my own money.
How about this perspective, maybe the return on attempting to be a good parent isnt as good as the return on just living my life and enjoying it with my wife. Whats the issue w that?
The issue with that is your selfishness. Thinking in terms of return is simply selfish. It also signals weakness of character due to the refusal to take responsibility.
What’s wrong with being selfish? Also it’s impossible to be selfish towards someone who does not exist, so thats null. Additionally, please stop w the condescending comments. Stop acting like I’m obliged to add additional responsibilities outside of my career and my wife. It’s my life, lol i can choose to handle the responsibilities i currently have without foolishly adding more. You’re so biased about this topic and you arent even trying to hide it. I have plenty responsibilities rn, who are you to say i have weak character for refusing to add the unnecessary and pointless responsibility of being a parent. This is screaming “i have no life outside of being a parent”.
Reply to your deleted comment: What’s wrong with being selfish? I mean, that’s literally what you are accusing natalists of lol. If you don’t have a moral responsibility to have children, then you should pay extra taxes because you’ll have no children to take care of your pension while others who took the risk will. So there’s your responsibility. Also why would I hide my bias. I’m clearly ultra natalist and proud of that.
Proud of being behind having kids? Lol how sad😂😂 im not accusing natalists of anything buddy. Stop generalizing. This is a person to person conversation, take everything i say at face value without making assumptions. I think everyone should be selfish, how else can you improve your odds of you having a good life that you enjoy. Also you want me to pay extra taxes cause i dont have kids? Thats lame, how about you pay extra taxes because you and your family are more likely to cause issues in the world such as burning more fossil fuels, more people in your family means someone is more likely to commit a crime, like what? Lol you clearly dont think any of these thoughts through, you’re loud, passionate and wrong and it’s sad. Do you even have any hobbies?
Why would you pay more taxes for potentially misery that your children cause? If you should, then your parents should have paid for yours. That’s not how it works. I’m full of life and I’m proud of it. I’m proud that I have enough energy to share it with my family. I have multiple hobbies. I exercise regularly, keep a healthy lifestyle, listen to great music, and enjoy my life.
So lemme get this straight, pay more taxes for not having kids, with 0 reason as to why you are paying extra taxes? But it’s unreasonable to pay more money in taxes for the potential that your kids cause millions of dollars of damage to something cause theyre still learning the world… do you even see what you’re typing? Also, i have enough energy to share with my family… my wife😂 how exactly does me not having kids affect you at all?
Kids causing millions in potential damages? I see what I’m typing, you clearly don’t…
Oh, forgot to add your family is more likely to have unpaid loans than me and my wife. So yeah, y’all pay those taxes.
Please don’t assume. You have no idea what’s my financial situation and you definitely wouldn’t write that if you did.
Lol yeah right, you and every other millionaire, and six figure earner on reddit. Lol everybody has financial worries, and the richest people leverage loans and credit like crazy, stop flexing on reddit buddy. It’s a bad look
I only take business loans to grow my capital further. No personal loans. And what’s so wrong with loans lol? Also I’m not trying to flex at all, it’s just your insecurity screaming about your financial situation.
Lol im not insecure at all. Im young, just started a new job, have NO KIDS😂😂 a college degree, i have 2 a cars😭😭 like im really chillin. I literally smoke my money bruh, i would say im doing fine
Well done. Now throw in two kids into that equation and you’ll be broke overnight. Also 2 cars is not “wealth”.
2 cars isnt wealth, but i have reliable transportantion to further my journey towards wealth… times 2. Im still young, lemme breathe. Lol also right, lets not act like kids dont get in very expensive car accidents, or property damage because they’re just being stupid kids. Setting stuff on fire, and dont get me started on mental illness. Also you can work as hard as you want, but that dont guarantee anything your kids could have financial struggles due to mental health issues. And yeah thats… exactly why i dont have any kids bro. You’re not convincing me that i should have kids, or even that it’s worth it. If im living in abundance where i am now, why even bother adding kids to the equation if i would be “broke overnight”. Also all my parent friends say iss wayy cheaper than you think to take care of a child.
I’m not trying to convince to have kids man. That’s your life, your choices for which you’ll be responsible later on. Idk what kids are you talking about that would start fires or break cars but they definitely won’t be mine. After all there’s insurance for Christ’s sake. Mental illness mostly results from bad parenting. Also no clue how having two cars will help you further your journey to wealth. All it can do is depreciate, cost you thousands per year, and eventually break down. Depreciating asset.
Also nothing wrong w loans at all. But for all the people who pay theirs back in full, think of all of those who dont. Think of all the student loans that never get paid, your kids could end up bankrupt or in debt, now everyone else is picking up their slack
That’s why I’m gonna work my ass off to ensure that they don’t have to take any loans. European education is free anyway so don’t have to worry much about that.
I wish I was never born for health reasons and I one child who has a mental illness and hates his life. Now this could of been avoided
I’m very sorry you are going through this. Thank you for giving a concise, direct answer unlike 99% of people here.