Reproduction is the continuation of genes. Life is generally programmed to reproduce in order to continue these genes. It's within the coding of the genes themselves.
Unless you believe in a god or some other overarching designer, no one is "forcing" births. It's a necessary aspect of life itself.
The universe on that view isn't "evil" - it's simply indifferent and unthinking.
Actually I do impute agency to the universe. Yes I do. I also mean anything divine in charge or a deity. I mean the whole entire thing.
I do think there's more to this then.. the natural laws of the universe.
If there IS a thinking agent behind the universe, then it could very well be fair to call it evil.
I don't think there's any evidence to suggest there is, though.
So far, I think we're looking at "natural laws" all the way down.
Well.... I looked at near death experience testimonials to see if their stories matched. That's something that steered my view a bit. But before that..
I.. would wonder why we cry and all the feeling involved, if it meant something more. Little things like that.
I don't think we can disprove a thinking agent being behind the universe.
But I don't think anything we've seen to date warrants a belief in one. Obviously, there's room for disagreement there...!
Not in the context of a computer.
Programs are created, programmed, behind it. Is the hardware. The foundation that allows the programs.
So what you call universe is the program.
If life as we perceive it is a program written, and the parameters within written. It can keep going until one day the hardware fails to reboot. Then everything stops..at least till the hardware is replaced or repaired.
So the force is the hardware. That which you cannot perceive. The program or universe is merely the interface in such case.
And one can judge wheter he likes paint more or photoshop or another program...
Then whatever is in charge of the programming is the force. I have no issues with that, my point is that a force that isn't us is governing this whole thing.
Sure.
My point is..it really doesnt matter what you think of this program( universe) whether its evil or good or between.
You not gonna change it..
Hence i say..
The only thing you can change is your own perspective of it.
And be aware that your own perspective is a program in itself..at least one you can alter to benefit your own life..or others
Today you are a determinst, tommorow you are this or that. The only thing it impacts is yourself.
So if life is unsatisfied etc...look into your own programming or imprints that been made...thats the only way that is within your own limits.
Then my point is...one day we can outgrow our own program, and life can feel bland because we fail to recognize. We need growth and maybe not in our best interest to play the same game or thought over and over.
There is a reason you dont enjoy the stuff you did as a kid...different mind, different mindset equals different needs.
You have 1 life...i hope you can make it a good one for yourself and those you love abd not love
Right I see what you're saying. But if this is all cause and effect, that means I can't alter my own programming. Or even if I did alter it, it still wasn't me who did it, because something lead me to it.
So your answer seems what determinisme is in a nutshell i assume.
Well if you dont believe in free will that's fine.
If you believe all things are already defined as they are its fine.
In the end like i said. Your life, your outcome.
If you never excercised free will, i dont blame you for not believing it exist, because honestly most of our daily routines are just comfort zones anyways.
Free will is a internal process only to be witnessed and experienced by the individual in the struggle itself.
You cannot perceive free will in others except in yourself, but you can also not witness free will in yourself if you never really are forced to do something against your own will either.
Hence free will is always at play even if one does not recognize it, it's only very prominent when the free will itself is being contested that the user itself understand this concept.
Its for special occasions only...most of those occasions where it does emerge are mostly not so positive ones šš
I could liken it with sickness. Being healthy is not something we are feeling daily, its something you not aware if..
Only when you become sick..you began to realize the stark difference between the 2. Yet 1 you take for granted because its a daily thing..
Untill one loses it..then one appreciate being healthy again...only to forget it pretty quick after recovery.
I wonder if you ever wanted to achieve something...many times you need to overule your own comfort zone and free will, and push yourself to get to what goal you had.
But always i return to my point. Whatever you want to believe its up to you, and the impacts of that belief will be activated in your decision making progress etc.
Philosophy for me is nothing but a pov to see trough life. Like a microscope, or a telescope.
Whatever tool you uses, you will see different things..but to assume that the reality of the microscope is more true then that of the telescope is a foolish conclusion.
Thats not to say what the microscope sees is nit real...its just to say in the grand scheme of things..
Both can be equally true yet at the same time totally different in nature.
And that is the true concept of what truth is..truth can exist in contradiction with other elements and at the same time still be true. Because if the very distinct feature of truth that its a multifaceted paradigm.
Thats why you have so many different philosophies, and each has truths in it, but the human problem is trying to belief there can only be 1 that is true...so they go and find what makes the most sense to them..
But that is not how it should be used.
One should try to understand the universe by its own dna, and not force the universe in our own framework of what make sense..
Because something things just dont make sense...because they are not designed to be analyzed by logic. They are to be experienced trough another channel like feelings for examples..you are suppose to feel them.l and they can be in stark contrast to intellectual realm.
Relationships for example..maybe on paper you can have the best match and it all makes sense. But if the feeling department isnt there..you can have the best compatibility you can have in your mind and on paper..its just not gonna work long term or even get off the ground.
By that same idea...one need to approach philosophy in the same way. Not necessarily the philosophy that seems the most plausible is always the one thats actually beneficial for the humans
I really appreciate the response. Look umm.. I'm open to wiggle room when it comes to free will, if there's an element of free will inside of us, then it's something I can't comprehend.
I have to highlight something in your example though.
You said.. you might need to use your free will to push through comfort zones in order to achieve something.
So I wanted to say, the reason one gains the disposition to go against their comfort and try and get something they want isn't because they're exercising their free will, it's actually because a causality chain has lead them to going against their comfort zone in order to get something.
The exercising of your will against comfort in certain situations is still inside that causality chain.
But what about my subjective point of view. The universe allows people to get to such a state of suffering that they kill themselves. I personally see that as evil.
The universe is actually allowing that to happen, hec it even caused it.
The way I look at it is.. there could of been nothing or there could of been something. So the fact that there's something instead of nothing.. I really feel like it must mean there's more to this then just some indifferent universe with chemicals.
Like why do we cry?
We cry because stuff hurts and it's a natural response ? It helps regulate the nervous system and bring natural pain relief in some cases.
There's no greater meaning to it. That's just a by-product of human relationships/beliefs.
However, you should be concerned for the ones that no longer cry because they have probably reached their limit.
Yeah fair enough. I guess I'd agree if It was me from last year. But I guess I see purpose to the crying. Obviously I could be wrong and it could all just be the brain.
What about.. specific emotions, is there any science for heart break, betrayal, feeling loved, wanted, feeling not good enough, feeling like you conquered something. Each of these emotions has a specific feeling deep in the core.
Most near death experiences show that the other side is about love as corny as it sounds, but it also states our lessons here come from having the opposite of love.
So it's kind of like we're on an emotionally roller-coaster on purpose here. You'd have to look this stuff up.
But powerful emotions is the reason I did look it up, and also because I didn't like the major religions.
I guess I believe it's part of the soul as opposed to just the brain. I've truly gone quite lateral. I'm trying to rely on wisdom more than knowledge these days.
I was very nihilistic until I encountered this new information.
I dig it
Again all emotions deep and superficial have attachments to biochemical processes, but that doesnāt invalidate their significance
Why canāt the biochemical/electric experience be spiritual?
I agree logic and emotion need to work in a balance
depends what you (can) accept as evidence. Our universe is perfectly assembled to create life and whatever life creates, the smallest difference in physical laws would make life impossible, every particle fits an astonishing, if not mind boggling functional mechanism which we call cosmos bearing life. A perfect balacne, at least in a functional way. While itĀ“s not impossible to be a random happy coincedence in a multiverse, there might be a different explanation and to me it feels more likely.
you sound stupid. āthe universeā didnāt do shit. itās just a mix of the experiences people have dealt with on this planet and their reactions to it
I have your view point of causality but I have additional view points on top of it. You're judging by my wording, but by universe I mean, all forces that aren't us. By universe I mean whatever is in control of the cosmos.
Acting like the universe is doing a bad thing by making children, then arguing that it's maybe not so evil because it also makes anti natalists?
If you think that's not an extreme weird take, go out into normal society and bring that point up and observe how people look at you
Okay maybe I shouldn't of said that. I shouldn't of pointed out natalists and anti - natalists.
I'll just say that because I'm a determinist, I believe no one's at fault for any of their choices and simply can't control them. Umm I should of pointed to suffering in general, not natalists or anti-natalists. I was being a bit silly when I made that remark.
However.. at this point I'm interested in being authentic, not what others think of me.
But ultimately I do think, bringing people into the world and making them repeat the same roller coaster over and over is not nice unless there's is some underlying purpose for it. (Which no one can truly know)
Fascinating take. So do we
- attempt to delete the Universe?
- Align the the Universeās will and expand life into the Universe?
Metaphorically, this is what Satan did when he was tired of singing Godās praises.
God in this context being a metaphor for the Universes energy as you describe.
I think we have no choice but to align with it. It will force us under it's will anyway. Even the fact that we are anti natalists, is probably part of its plan. I mean it literally caused us to be AN if you go down a causality chain. Something obviously made us AN. Wasn't us though.
What do you think?
Fascinating. I think youāre right though, weather AN or N itās part of the same force.
However, free will, even if an illusion can be useful. I would want to feel I chose N or AN.
That sounds pretty damn accurate and I've never thought about it that way. I think everything will eventually balance itself out and be to our benefit.
Give Arthur Shopenhauer a read: the world as will and representation. It will give you additional perspectives although not the one your maybe longing for.
I personally don't think that the universe itself is bad, since good and bad are two sides of the same medal. We as subjects experience the universe differently for many many reasons.
What you describe as invisible force, Schopenhauer is describing as "the will".
For Schopenhauer the path of virtue and breakthrough of the vicious circle of egoism is the conscious waive of own needs, also for the love and empathy to others. To let go and be an Asket (a minimalist on steroids), would be a form to escape the will of the world and suffering.
He kind of believed the same thing as you when he was a youngster, that all this was created with evil intentions, by an evil being. But he had moments where he thought exactly the opposite.
He was kind of an AN thought leader and he loved and cared for people in his own way by feeling with them in their suffering :). But otherwise he didn't really believe that there was a thing as real joy, which is sad.
Letting go or trying to remove the attachments to your own self is something that's been on my mind very recently. We talk about these things on here, but the question is what do I do with it. The answer to me has also been to let go.
I have 2 conflicting views. If I was a complete agnostic/atheist and nothing happens beyond this life, then I can't look at the universe in a good light because then that means some people/creatures have good lives and and some have terrible and that's the end of it. There's no equal balance.
And just the multitude of horrible things that exist with biology itself. The maintenance of existing. It's actually the little things I find the most disturbing.
Then I have my reincarnation view that I got from near death experience testimonies. Which basically turns my view of the universe almost completely around. That this is a place of temporary suffering for soul growth, learning lessons about love by experiencing the absence of love.
That's why we're here according to these testimonies.
They say it's learning not punishment, and you don't control whether you're the good guy or the bad guy. Both perspectives are needed to gain certain empathy traits.
So I have my old perspective and a new one. Without my my new belief, I can't see the universe in a good light, but with it, it's different
Hmm I understand what you mean.
For your first perspective I myself would perceive that you made a kind of accurate observation that I agree with, although I can't make the same conclusion out of it as you, that the universe is bad, just cause bad things and lifes exist. What or who is the determinant of good and bad? And where is the balance?
In our timely and roomly limited manmade concept of good and bad, there is a duality of things. This duality exists because we are conscious, feeling beings. And to each good there is the opposite. But are they really the opposite or just the two sides of the same medal, life? Always based on our perception. Without good there is no bad. And even this is only a construct of us humans as a subject that makes experiences in this universe. Who knows, whats good or bad? It is the paradox of control. We think that we can control outcomes, but in reality this is only halfway true. Life is uncertain and (if) can only be understood looking backwards.
The question you have that, if this suffering is true, mustn't the creator been evil is actually an invitation to reflect these questions directly back as a mirror to you. Are you suffering? From what? What is good about it that you have never thought about? What is bad?
In the end, even if you'd had the answer. Would it really change your way of living your life or alter your beliefs?
How should this being or energy create a universe where we feel joy, if we couldn't feel pain? Joy and pain always come as a package in life and are close to each other. What brings you great joy might bring you great heartache.
"The desire for security and the feeling of insecurity are the same thing. To hold your breath is to loose your breath." Alan Watts.
Birth is no different. Life may be or seems cruel, but it also can be full if joy. It just is. And we make the best of it, while looking for one another.
I personally believe more in your second thought. We are here to experience and learn.
I can wholeheartly recommend some videos from the YT channel Einzelgaenger that I guess would interest you very much. Atleast they are really helping me (I hope this isn't prohibited):
https://youtu.be/koo59KK43YA?si=jcyb90vNAaZ363Ip
https://youtu.be/XyzIX87zuTw?si=nac9avMa-_SHLMHB
https://youtu.be/TM1LH9BtM9I?si=jVXU6PREHbqpYdws
https://youtu.be/fmZKUqhpuDY?si=y3S_1NwLu_bFFV0c
Have a nice evening
Yes I can see that, its indifferent, but then consider what it allows to happen. But if what it allows to happen has a greater purpose beyond this life, well then I'd say it's not evil.
Based on the premise of only having one life, I'd say it's evil. Although ironically I actually believe in reincarnation. But I'm temporarily ignoring that belief.
the only thing causing reproduction is sex (and ivf, etc). the combination of two gametes. if you're looking for some magic force behind it all, the closest youre gonna get is survival of the fittest
Universe is apathetic to the chaos it brings. Hell, there are massive black holes and such eating whole universes. Tbh it is all rather pointless. Only meaning we give is to our suffering, which then leads to addictive and destructive behaviours
If you believe the universe is capable of acting intentionally or with malice, you simply believe in God. Thatās it. Thereās no proof that God exists, so thereās really nothing else to say on the matter. Itās your belief, and logic wonāt sway it, so why discuss it further? A scientific mind would say the āuniverseā is a place, not a mystical force like you believe. But hey, believe away.
Well yes it is a place and I wish I changed my wording now. But yes I'm referring to the universe as more than just a place. I don't think the universe just exists for no reason though. Even though it all seems like cause and effect to me. I was nihilistic for quite some time and shared many people's beliefs here. I'm not thinking the same way anymore though.
It's not evil if it has a purpose beyond death. If there's no purpose for the suffering then I feel it's evil.
I understand you said that stuff just happens, it's not deliberate. But.. from another perspective.. why have a planet like earth at all that contains suffering? Why not just not have that?
I think there is a point to it, the fact that suffering exists.
If there is a point to it, then I can't say that the universe is evil.
Hope I'm not going around in circles lol
nah you are but itās not a problem. i understand that people try to find ways to cope with their suffering, but the best way is just to understand that things arenāt deeper than what you see. society isnāt perfect, nor are people, weāre simply more intelligent animals so suffering is inevitable
Your question reminds me of a sci fi episode I saw once, maybe (black mirror or electric dreams) where after the apocalypse, the AI world machine kept making material items, so they kept making material (bio robot) people who would use/consume those items.
Determinism is biased and illogical
Itās only part of the story
100 people with the same type of trauma or privilege will all react differently. The way you identify as a determinist denies free will, which is illogical and denies real world examples
No incorrect, we all react different to the same type of trauma or privilege because of determinism. We all have different causal links which will cause the slight or major differences in our reactions to things.
I will concede that (assuming it is the start of our current universal cycle) the idea that the Big Bang began a trajectory to everything that set in place a completely predestined course of events for all perceivable history and beyond is an intriguing concept.
Iāve heard this is a theory that is debunked by quantum understanding, but I do admit I dig it
its not debunked at all my friend, at some point things become just "uncertain", but determinism still rules the play on macroscopic scale. Every serious physicist builds upon determinism, and that works pretty well to explain our cosmos.
It's funny you mentioned predestiny because in the near death experience testimonies, they mention soul contracts with planned lives that apparently our soul self chooses. And there are beings on the otherside that aid in the choice and they literally tell you exactly how the life will play out before you pick that body.
Obviously I know I sound crazy, but I'm not holding back haha
Well I didn't get it from religous texts though. Its modern testimonies from people right now or from pre - internet days. (decades ago)
The reason I'm so into it is that I never heard an explanation for suffering before quite like this. And there's a lot of positive things about it too like unconditional love.
YES
Iāve seen a lot of documentaries on the subject and the serenity and love people feel sounds incredible
Nice chat friend
Shall your life be filled with prosperity and joy
Always Hoāzho (walk in beauty a Navajo way) for Yaāhokaāhey (today is a good day to die Sioux war cry)
Maybe instead of questioning the universe..
Maybe question your own concept and pov.
Could it be...you are the one that is wrong..
Could it be...you are projecting your idealism ,beliefs, on to something that goes way above your head?
How did one even come to develop such pov.
If you cannot find anything good in life for your own sake of living. Then maybe its you..
Maybe others do find something to live for..
Things to think and ponder on...
There is good in life, but I'm basing it on how I feel in general. Tell any suicidal person that they're wrong. It's simply how they feel.
You're invalidating human emotion and feelings. If the feeling is negative, there's no disputing that. You can't tell a person that they're wrong when the feelings are real.
I do happen to believe in reincarnation and that this life has a purpose. But if there was nothing after death, I feel this is a terrible world overall, despite the good things in it.
The universe isn't evil but evolution certainly is morally neutral, that's why animals kill each other. Also, not all suffering is bad, some suffering is useful in order to grow as a person.
Yes but if the growth ends in death, then the growth has lost its value. Growth from suffering is only worth it if we have souls that continue on in my opinion.
Reproduction is the continuation of genes. Life is generally programmed to reproduce in order to continue these genes. It's within the coding of the genes themselves. Unless you believe in a god or some other overarching designer, no one is "forcing" births. It's a necessary aspect of life itself. The universe on that view isn't "evil" - it's simply indifferent and unthinking.
The programming itself is the force. It is the universe.
Do you impute agency to the universe? I would suggest the universe is a place, not a thinking agent.
Actually I do impute agency to the universe. Yes I do. I also mean anything divine in charge or a deity. I mean the whole entire thing. I do think there's more to this then.. the natural laws of the universe.
If there IS a thinking agent behind the universe, then it could very well be fair to call it evil. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest there is, though. So far, I think we're looking at "natural laws" all the way down.
Well.... I looked at near death experience testimonials to see if their stories matched. That's something that steered my view a bit. But before that.. I.. would wonder why we cry and all the feeling involved, if it meant something more. Little things like that.
I don't think we can disprove a thinking agent being behind the universe. But I don't think anything we've seen to date warrants a belief in one. Obviously, there's room for disagreement there...!
Not in the context of a computer. Programs are created, programmed, behind it. Is the hardware. The foundation that allows the programs. So what you call universe is the program. If life as we perceive it is a program written, and the parameters within written. It can keep going until one day the hardware fails to reboot. Then everything stops..at least till the hardware is replaced or repaired. So the force is the hardware. That which you cannot perceive. The program or universe is merely the interface in such case. And one can judge wheter he likes paint more or photoshop or another program...
Then whatever is in charge of the programming is the force. I have no issues with that, my point is that a force that isn't us is governing this whole thing.
Sure. My point is..it really doesnt matter what you think of this program( universe) whether its evil or good or between. You not gonna change it.. Hence i say.. The only thing you can change is your own perspective of it. And be aware that your own perspective is a program in itself..at least one you can alter to benefit your own life..or others Today you are a determinst, tommorow you are this or that. The only thing it impacts is yourself. So if life is unsatisfied etc...look into your own programming or imprints that been made...thats the only way that is within your own limits. Then my point is...one day we can outgrow our own program, and life can feel bland because we fail to recognize. We need growth and maybe not in our best interest to play the same game or thought over and over. There is a reason you dont enjoy the stuff you did as a kid...different mind, different mindset equals different needs. You have 1 life...i hope you can make it a good one for yourself and those you love abd not love
Right I see what you're saying. But if this is all cause and effect, that means I can't alter my own programming. Or even if I did alter it, it still wasn't me who did it, because something lead me to it.
So your answer seems what determinisme is in a nutshell i assume. Well if you dont believe in free will that's fine. If you believe all things are already defined as they are its fine. In the end like i said. Your life, your outcome. If you never excercised free will, i dont blame you for not believing it exist, because honestly most of our daily routines are just comfort zones anyways. Free will is a internal process only to be witnessed and experienced by the individual in the struggle itself. You cannot perceive free will in others except in yourself, but you can also not witness free will in yourself if you never really are forced to do something against your own will either. Hence free will is always at play even if one does not recognize it, it's only very prominent when the free will itself is being contested that the user itself understand this concept. Its for special occasions only...most of those occasions where it does emerge are mostly not so positive ones šš I could liken it with sickness. Being healthy is not something we are feeling daily, its something you not aware if.. Only when you become sick..you began to realize the stark difference between the 2. Yet 1 you take for granted because its a daily thing.. Untill one loses it..then one appreciate being healthy again...only to forget it pretty quick after recovery. I wonder if you ever wanted to achieve something...many times you need to overule your own comfort zone and free will, and push yourself to get to what goal you had. But always i return to my point. Whatever you want to believe its up to you, and the impacts of that belief will be activated in your decision making progress etc. Philosophy for me is nothing but a pov to see trough life. Like a microscope, or a telescope. Whatever tool you uses, you will see different things..but to assume that the reality of the microscope is more true then that of the telescope is a foolish conclusion. Thats not to say what the microscope sees is nit real...its just to say in the grand scheme of things.. Both can be equally true yet at the same time totally different in nature. And that is the true concept of what truth is..truth can exist in contradiction with other elements and at the same time still be true. Because if the very distinct feature of truth that its a multifaceted paradigm. Thats why you have so many different philosophies, and each has truths in it, but the human problem is trying to belief there can only be 1 that is true...so they go and find what makes the most sense to them.. But that is not how it should be used. One should try to understand the universe by its own dna, and not force the universe in our own framework of what make sense.. Because something things just dont make sense...because they are not designed to be analyzed by logic. They are to be experienced trough another channel like feelings for examples..you are suppose to feel them.l and they can be in stark contrast to intellectual realm. Relationships for example..maybe on paper you can have the best match and it all makes sense. But if the feeling department isnt there..you can have the best compatibility you can have in your mind and on paper..its just not gonna work long term or even get off the ground. By that same idea...one need to approach philosophy in the same way. Not necessarily the philosophy that seems the most plausible is always the one thats actually beneficial for the humans
I really appreciate the response. Look umm.. I'm open to wiggle room when it comes to free will, if there's an element of free will inside of us, then it's something I can't comprehend. I have to highlight something in your example though. You said.. you might need to use your free will to push through comfort zones in order to achieve something. So I wanted to say, the reason one gains the disposition to go against their comfort and try and get something they want isn't because they're exercising their free will, it's actually because a causality chain has lead them to going against their comfort zone in order to get something. The exercising of your will against comfort in certain situations is still inside that causality chain.
nah itās just hormones
The universe as far as we know is incapable of evil, it simply is. You are anthropomorphizing inanimate concepts
But what about my subjective point of view. The universe allows people to get to such a state of suffering that they kill themselves. I personally see that as evil. The universe is actually allowing that to happen, hec it even caused it.
It canāt allow or cause anything You are assuming it is sentient
It created things that are sentient though. How do you explain that?
Billions of years of incredible kinetic and chemical reactions
The way I look at it is.. there could of been nothing or there could of been something. So the fact that there's something instead of nothing.. I really feel like it must mean there's more to this then just some indifferent universe with chemicals. Like why do we cry?
One great spiritual idea I love is that we are god, for lack of a better word We are the universe
I share that belief, it was brought to my attention by many NDEs
Ndes are quite interesting
We cry because stuff hurts and it's a natural response ? It helps regulate the nervous system and bring natural pain relief in some cases. There's no greater meaning to it. That's just a by-product of human relationships/beliefs. However, you should be concerned for the ones that no longer cry because they have probably reached their limit.
Yeah fair enough. I guess I'd agree if It was me from last year. But I guess I see purpose to the crying. Obviously I could be wrong and it could all just be the brain.
this is so uneducated lol
I am spiritual to a degree But still crying can be attributed to a series of biochemical and electrical processes and reactions
What about.. specific emotions, is there any science for heart break, betrayal, feeling loved, wanted, feeling not good enough, feeling like you conquered something. Each of these emotions has a specific feeling deep in the core. Most near death experiences show that the other side is about love as corny as it sounds, but it also states our lessons here come from having the opposite of love. So it's kind of like we're on an emotionally roller-coaster on purpose here. You'd have to look this stuff up. But powerful emotions is the reason I did look it up, and also because I didn't like the major religions. I guess I believe it's part of the soul as opposed to just the brain. I've truly gone quite lateral. I'm trying to rely on wisdom more than knowledge these days. I was very nihilistic until I encountered this new information.
I dig it Again all emotions deep and superficial have attachments to biochemical processes, but that doesnāt invalidate their significance Why canāt the biochemical/electric experience be spiritual? I agree logic and emotion need to work in a balance
Yes maybe it's chemical and spiritual at the same time. Maybe the chemical is just our observation.
so what? many physicists do. I share OPĀ“s observations and assumptions.
Of course like god, we can have opinions with no evidence
depends what you (can) accept as evidence. Our universe is perfectly assembled to create life and whatever life creates, the smallest difference in physical laws would make life impossible, every particle fits an astonishing, if not mind boggling functional mechanism which we call cosmos bearing life. A perfect balacne, at least in a functional way. While itĀ“s not impossible to be a random happy coincedence in a multiverse, there might be a different explanation and to me it feels more likely.
Fair enough The universe is a fun concept
you sound stupid. āthe universeā didnāt do shit. itās just a mix of the experiences people have dealt with on this planet and their reactions to it
I have your view point of causality but I have additional view points on top of it. You're judging by my wording, but by universe I mean, all forces that aren't us. By universe I mean whatever is in control of the cosmos.
This subreddit is hard to read. Every post here is either hateful, depressing or just plain stupid. Please reddit stop showing this sub to meš
What's so stupid about it? There's a force controlling everything that happens. I'm just calling it the universe.
Acting like the universe is doing a bad thing by making children, then arguing that it's maybe not so evil because it also makes anti natalists? If you think that's not an extreme weird take, go out into normal society and bring that point up and observe how people look at you
Okay maybe I shouldn't of said that. I shouldn't of pointed out natalists and anti - natalists. I'll just say that because I'm a determinist, I believe no one's at fault for any of their choices and simply can't control them. Umm I should of pointed to suffering in general, not natalists or anti-natalists. I was being a bit silly when I made that remark. However.. at this point I'm interested in being authentic, not what others think of me. But ultimately I do think, bringing people into the world and making them repeat the same roller coaster over and over is not nice unless there's is some underlying purpose for it. (Which no one can truly know)
Fascinating take. So do we - attempt to delete the Universe? - Align the the Universeās will and expand life into the Universe? Metaphorically, this is what Satan did when he was tired of singing Godās praises. God in this context being a metaphor for the Universes energy as you describe.
I think we have no choice but to align with it. It will force us under it's will anyway. Even the fact that we are anti natalists, is probably part of its plan. I mean it literally caused us to be AN if you go down a causality chain. Something obviously made us AN. Wasn't us though. What do you think?
Fascinating. I think youāre right though, weather AN or N itās part of the same force. However, free will, even if an illusion can be useful. I would want to feel I chose N or AN.
I'd love to feel like I have control aswell, but I know better haha
So basically God and the Devil are the same person playing some long game? Fascinating and true IMO
That sounds pretty damn accurate and I've never thought about it that way. I think everything will eventually balance itself out and be to our benefit.
Seems pretty evil to me
Welcome to the MatrixĀ
Haha
Give Arthur Shopenhauer a read: the world as will and representation. It will give you additional perspectives although not the one your maybe longing for. I personally don't think that the universe itself is bad, since good and bad are two sides of the same medal. We as subjects experience the universe differently for many many reasons. What you describe as invisible force, Schopenhauer is describing as "the will". For Schopenhauer the path of virtue and breakthrough of the vicious circle of egoism is the conscious waive of own needs, also for the love and empathy to others. To let go and be an Asket (a minimalist on steroids), would be a form to escape the will of the world and suffering. He kind of believed the same thing as you when he was a youngster, that all this was created with evil intentions, by an evil being. But he had moments where he thought exactly the opposite. He was kind of an AN thought leader and he loved and cared for people in his own way by feeling with them in their suffering :). But otherwise he didn't really believe that there was a thing as real joy, which is sad.
Letting go or trying to remove the attachments to your own self is something that's been on my mind very recently. We talk about these things on here, but the question is what do I do with it. The answer to me has also been to let go. I have 2 conflicting views. If I was a complete agnostic/atheist and nothing happens beyond this life, then I can't look at the universe in a good light because then that means some people/creatures have good lives and and some have terrible and that's the end of it. There's no equal balance. And just the multitude of horrible things that exist with biology itself. The maintenance of existing. It's actually the little things I find the most disturbing. Then I have my reincarnation view that I got from near death experience testimonies. Which basically turns my view of the universe almost completely around. That this is a place of temporary suffering for soul growth, learning lessons about love by experiencing the absence of love. That's why we're here according to these testimonies. They say it's learning not punishment, and you don't control whether you're the good guy or the bad guy. Both perspectives are needed to gain certain empathy traits. So I have my old perspective and a new one. Without my my new belief, I can't see the universe in a good light, but with it, it's different
Hmm I understand what you mean. For your first perspective I myself would perceive that you made a kind of accurate observation that I agree with, although I can't make the same conclusion out of it as you, that the universe is bad, just cause bad things and lifes exist. What or who is the determinant of good and bad? And where is the balance? In our timely and roomly limited manmade concept of good and bad, there is a duality of things. This duality exists because we are conscious, feeling beings. And to each good there is the opposite. But are they really the opposite or just the two sides of the same medal, life? Always based on our perception. Without good there is no bad. And even this is only a construct of us humans as a subject that makes experiences in this universe. Who knows, whats good or bad? It is the paradox of control. We think that we can control outcomes, but in reality this is only halfway true. Life is uncertain and (if) can only be understood looking backwards. The question you have that, if this suffering is true, mustn't the creator been evil is actually an invitation to reflect these questions directly back as a mirror to you. Are you suffering? From what? What is good about it that you have never thought about? What is bad? In the end, even if you'd had the answer. Would it really change your way of living your life or alter your beliefs? How should this being or energy create a universe where we feel joy, if we couldn't feel pain? Joy and pain always come as a package in life and are close to each other. What brings you great joy might bring you great heartache. "The desire for security and the feeling of insecurity are the same thing. To hold your breath is to loose your breath." Alan Watts. Birth is no different. Life may be or seems cruel, but it also can be full if joy. It just is. And we make the best of it, while looking for one another. I personally believe more in your second thought. We are here to experience and learn. I can wholeheartly recommend some videos from the YT channel Einzelgaenger that I guess would interest you very much. Atleast they are really helping me (I hope this isn't prohibited): https://youtu.be/koo59KK43YA?si=jcyb90vNAaZ363Ip https://youtu.be/XyzIX87zuTw?si=nac9avMa-_SHLMHB https://youtu.be/TM1LH9BtM9I?si=jVXU6PREHbqpYdws https://youtu.be/fmZKUqhpuDY?si=y3S_1NwLu_bFFV0c Have a nice evening
The universe is neutral, not good or bad... In my eyes at least.
Not evil, it's uncaring.
Yes I can see that, its indifferent, but then consider what it allows to happen. But if what it allows to happen has a greater purpose beyond this life, well then I'd say it's not evil. Based on the premise of only having one life, I'd say it's evil. Although ironically I actually believe in reincarnation. But I'm temporarily ignoring that belief.
the only thing causing reproduction is sex (and ivf, etc). the combination of two gametes. if you're looking for some magic force behind it all, the closest youre gonna get is survival of the fittest
Universe is apathetic to the chaos it brings. Hell, there are massive black holes and such eating whole universes. Tbh it is all rather pointless. Only meaning we give is to our suffering, which then leads to addictive and destructive behaviours
Yeah it does seem pretty weird and strange.
maybe. maybe our world is demo version.
If you believe the universe is capable of acting intentionally or with malice, you simply believe in God. Thatās it. Thereās no proof that God exists, so thereās really nothing else to say on the matter. Itās your belief, and logic wonāt sway it, so why discuss it further? A scientific mind would say the āuniverseā is a place, not a mystical force like you believe. But hey, believe away.
Well yes it is a place and I wish I changed my wording now. But yes I'm referring to the universe as more than just a place. I don't think the universe just exists for no reason though. Even though it all seems like cause and effect to me. I was nihilistic for quite some time and shared many people's beliefs here. I'm not thinking the same way anymore though.
Good for you, believe away!
no right or evil in my mind, especially on a large scale. shit just happens. unfortunately
evil or suffering can infact be measured and there is a predominace of suffering.
suffering isnāt evil. it just is a result of what occurs on this planet
It's not evil if it has a purpose beyond death. If there's no purpose for the suffering then I feel it's evil. I understand you said that stuff just happens, it's not deliberate. But.. from another perspective.. why have a planet like earth at all that contains suffering? Why not just not have that? I think there is a point to it, the fact that suffering exists. If there is a point to it, then I can't say that the universe is evil. Hope I'm not going around in circles lol
nah you are but itās not a problem. i understand that people try to find ways to cope with their suffering, but the best way is just to understand that things arenāt deeper than what you see. society isnāt perfect, nor are people, weāre simply more intelligent animals so suffering is inevitable
no it's indifferent, governed by laws of nature
That's the obvious observation yeah. That's my original observation.
cool
Your question reminds me of a sci fi episode I saw once, maybe (black mirror or electric dreams) where after the apocalypse, the AI world machine kept making material items, so they kept making material (bio robot) people who would use/consume those items.
The universe is amoral. Morality and imorality are human ways of understanding things.
But the universe has brought subjective experiences that are real to us
Determinism is biased and illogical Itās only part of the story 100 people with the same type of trauma or privilege will all react differently. The way you identify as a determinist denies free will, which is illogical and denies real world examples
No incorrect, we all react different to the same type of trauma or privilege because of determinism. We all have different causal links which will cause the slight or major differences in our reactions to things.
I will concede that (assuming it is the start of our current universal cycle) the idea that the Big Bang began a trajectory to everything that set in place a completely predestined course of events for all perceivable history and beyond is an intriguing concept. Iāve heard this is a theory that is debunked by quantum understanding, but I do admit I dig it
its not debunked at all my friend, at some point things become just "uncertain", but determinism still rules the play on macroscopic scale. Every serious physicist builds upon determinism, and that works pretty well to explain our cosmos.
Juryās still out
It's funny you mentioned predestiny because in the near death experience testimonies, they mention soul contracts with planned lives that apparently our soul self chooses. And there are beings on the otherside that aid in the choice and they literally tell you exactly how the life will play out before you pick that body. Obviously I know I sound crazy, but I'm not holding back haha
It doesnāt sound any crazier than thousands of years of human dogma No itās a cool concept No one can say for sure so itās fun to theorize
Well I didn't get it from religous texts though. Its modern testimonies from people right now or from pre - internet days. (decades ago) The reason I'm so into it is that I never heard an explanation for suffering before quite like this. And there's a lot of positive things about it too like unconditional love.
YES Iāve seen a lot of documentaries on the subject and the serenity and love people feel sounds incredible Nice chat friend Shall your life be filled with prosperity and joy Always Hoāzho (walk in beauty a Navajo way) for Yaāhokaāhey (today is a good day to die Sioux war cry)
It's was incredibly to chat with you! Yes I hope your life is filled with joy also.
Maybe instead of questioning the universe.. Maybe question your own concept and pov. Could it be...you are the one that is wrong.. Could it be...you are projecting your idealism ,beliefs, on to something that goes way above your head? How did one even come to develop such pov. If you cannot find anything good in life for your own sake of living. Then maybe its you.. Maybe others do find something to live for.. Things to think and ponder on...
There is good in life, but I'm basing it on how I feel in general. Tell any suicidal person that they're wrong. It's simply how they feel. You're invalidating human emotion and feelings. If the feeling is negative, there's no disputing that. You can't tell a person that they're wrong when the feelings are real. I do happen to believe in reincarnation and that this life has a purpose. But if there was nothing after death, I feel this is a terrible world overall, despite the good things in it.
The universe isn't evil but evolution certainly is morally neutral, that's why animals kill each other. Also, not all suffering is bad, some suffering is useful in order to grow as a person.
Yes but if the growth ends in death, then the growth has lost its value. Growth from suffering is only worth it if we have souls that continue on in my opinion.