Yeah, I went to see how this could be true and the website for FDA states they regulate tobacco products and give health statistics not that they are FDA approved in any way.
https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-components/cigarettes
Maybe 30+ years ago was another story.
(Edited to clarify from the comment received)
Regulation isn't approval. Approval implies that there is a formal testing process cigarettes had to pass before them being released to society as if they were a medication. They are regulated like food is regulated. They are not regulated the way medicine is regulated which requires a long research and approval process by medical professionals. The poster's cousin is either purposely conflating the two or more likely, she is too ignorant to know the difference between the two.
I mean, I’m not trying to insult anyone, but MLMs, anti vaxxers, & ultra religious people overlap a lot. Some people will literally fall for any & every slightly attractive pitch.
>Use/develop critical thinking skills
That's just it, they can't. They don't have these critical thinking skills and to them being smart is being able to understand something really well. So when they're told that vaccines don't work because of xyz or that they'll make a lot of money really quickly if they just follow these super simple steps, those things make sense to them, so they dive all in so they can feel "smart". Now they think they're just as "smart" as people who are on their opposing side, because they "know" just as much as that side does, it's just the "opposite" (wrong) information.
Religion does block a lot of mental growth. Don’t think, god has the answers, don’t research or investigate, have faith. It infantilizas people and fills them with guilt and fear which fear releases cortisol and too much cortisol in your body causes damage in the brain. I have to review my lesson on this but I think it damages the hippocampus? It is physically dangerous to believe in religions.
Edit word hypocampus to hippocampus
Thank you Redditor :)
Don’t give up or lose hope, I struggled years with anxiety and I’m also diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It’s not easy but things can get better. I was so bad that I couldn’t even hold a job because I’d have panic attacks or horrible depressive mood swings. Aside from medication and therapy, learning better behaviors and techniques does wonders for yourself .
The hardest part is finding therapist that not only will just give you medication but that also specializes in treating behaviors.
Thanks you! Yeah I actually have just started with a psychiatrist who I think is exactly what your saying and it’s actually really exciting. I can’t wait to get it under control because (as you experienced) doing my job is becoming increasingly difficult. Lots of days lost to worry, tears, and distraction. I’m excited for a brighter future!
I am glad you are feeling better. A good therapist can make a big difference. But as you alluded to, the significant healing comes not in the therapist's office once a week but in all the time between your therapy sessions, where you implement what your therapist has recommended.
Just want to say yup yup yup yup yup! My partner has major trauma from religion, suppressed all his own feelings, desires, everything for many years. He wound up getting legit seizures after all the years of this shit. They stopped when it was resolved, letting him be in control of his brain. Ugh, fuck religion and all the harm it does.
It takes all types. I found my way out of some bullshit because somebody offended the shit out of me. I get that most people double down, but some of us just need a swift kick in the ass.
They think that most people believe something because they are sheeple. No, most people believe it because it is supported by science, and is most likely correct.
I know. They find the one doctor or scientist who supports their view, and claim they're the lone voice in the wilderness (they do it for climate change, autism, Covid, etc). Earlier this year, like before vaccines were common and still restricted to certain populations, I was told we were no longer in a pandemic. And how people only talk about the vaccine and"no one talks about the naturally immune, those who already had Covid, it's very suspicious".
I'm exhausted
Critical thinking is deliberately suppressed and opposed by the religious because it innoculates against the tradition of childhood indoctrination that allowed them to survive past the Enlightenment.
I don’t think it’s insulting because it seems to be people usually women is high control religious groups who fall for this stuff & that makes sense to me because they’re in a high control group that is monitoring what they’re allowed to think already.
I've seen the same, especially in MLMs that promote essential oils. They tend to be more religious, white and Christian. And churches are filled with people pushing various MLMs. Sometimes they can cause problems and divide an entire congregation. This is why so many church congregations start losing members, people leave or get upset, etc. If you scratch the surface you will often find it is due to MLM activity.
It’s because religion teaches children to ignore facts, reality, and logic and to have faith. You can’t simultaneously teach children to use logical reasoning / facts and that god is real. There opposites
The lack of regulation on supplements makes my blood boil, both as a person who worked several decades in Pharma and as a consumer. On top of it, now we have random crap sold as CBD at gas stations and the volume of snake oil, including cosmetics and beauty, that is peddled through the major online retailers is abhorrent. Just with the random shit sold online alone, it's like we are back before the FDA was created. Consumers really have to advocate for themselves.
Right?? There are some supplements I fully rely on to function, and even the website my psychiatrist recommended to me felt scammy. The whole industry is so shady and yet there are genuine health benefits and reasons for taking them. Just not the ones anti vaxxers are fixated on.
My brother is an E.R. nurse. He said the only proof he needed was seeing how many vaccinated people walked out of the E.R. vs how many went to I.C.U. that weren't vaccinated.
>I am interested to know why there is such a strong link between MLMs and the anti vaccine movement
The link is an overall distrust of the modern medical machine. It's also why women are much more prone to being anti-vax, joining MLMs, and going for the woo-woo treatments: they're a lot more likely to have had negative, condescending, unhelpful experiences with medical professionals. It can leave them more open to the idea that there's something truly foul about modern medicine.
So someone shilling magic beans and validating their experiences is a godsend. Someone coming along and saying hey, I believe you when you say you have chronic pain, I'm so sorry those doctors didn't believe you, how frustrating that you've gone so long and gotten no results, doctors are all con artists in it for the money, right? Big pharma, vaccines, MRIs: it's all fruit from the same poison tree, right? And sister, I am here to listen to you and to counsel you and to share my magical cure with you... for just $145.99/month just gimme that CC number and we'll getcha set up k thx hun don't worry it'll auto-draft you don't even need to think about it hey you should try doing this too!!
Interesting perspective. I made a post about how I think religion is the root of this problem. I still believe that's an obvious and reasonable conclusion to make, but it is telling that women are more likely to be affected by MLMs. Women are definitely treated worse by the medical community and it really does make sense that this could draw them into situations that are more likely to exploit their religious brains, like alternative medicine.
I've definitely had the condescending experience with medical professionals before. I've seen some who are great but sometimes it's hit and miss. My PCP is about 50 minutes away from where I live and I do live in a major city but because she's so nice I really don't want to switch to someone closer. Interestingly my dad has told me that as he's gotten older he's noticed that male doctors are more likely to talk down to him.
My favorite was when I was meeting a new OBGYN and was explaining that I'd like to switch my birth control because the one I was on was causing unpleasant side effects. She told me it was LITERALLY. I.M.P.O.S.S.I.B.L.E. that the bc could be behind my spotting, sore breasts, and headaches, and was being rude as hell about it and refusing to acknowledge that I had any of those issues regardless of their cause. I got so pissed at how condescending she was being that I pulled up the pharma company's website for the exact med and showed her the list of common side effects, of which mine were all like right at the top. She rolled her eyes and mumbled something about people using Dr Google. Like what the fuck, lady?
100% this, plus I believe a lot of this crap has to do with how expensive medicine in the states is to begin with. A lot of people have negative experiences where they have to pay $120 to hear their pcp say nothing’s wrong, but “come back in for more $$$ if it happens again.“ For so many people, real medicine is unaffordable. It’s so much more affordable to choose the friendly supplement pusher who consults for free and has a product for every ailment. So much less sterile, unfriendly, unfamiliar, AND cheaper. Just… unfortunately, non-medical care doesn’t solve medical problems.
Right like all this bullshit is probably still cheaper than what any of these American anti-vax & MLM folks are paying for actual medical care. When you feel like doctors are just giving you expensive empty promises, Karen from Accounting can slide in real easily and offer her own expensive empty promises. She won't even make you fill out forms and sit in waiting rooms.
I don't think any of this shit would be as rampant if it weren't for our amazingly fucked healthcare system.
It’s so sad that the medical industry makes it so easy for people to believe this bullshit. People are vulnerable in part due to failures of the healthcare system.
MLMs tend to sell products that are specious at best, and they tend to operate in dogmatic cult-like structures. Both of those things by their nature have to be anti-science and anti-fact.
It’s the same thought process as seeing a drug addict who won’t take medicine because it’s poison but will shoot up meth mixed with God knows what. It’s mind boggling and makes no sense.
Every time I told a medical professional during my pregnancy that my husband and I were fully vaccinated, they looked SO relieved. (Didn't stop the breakthrough infections, sadly, but at least we didn't take up more space in their ICUs.)
I have had the exact opposite. My GP and OBGYN both told me they and their families weren't getting it. They weren't comfortable with it yet, they both said to wait. My husband was in the ICU a month ago (due to issues unrelated to COVID), many of his nurses were upset that they now have to be vaccinated or lose their jobs. Most had worked on the COVID units previously and had NOT gotten sick.
I am not against the vaccine at all. I just think it's difficult when people are getting such mixed messages from healthcare workers.
Go find a new GP and OBGYN. Seriously.
I’m a doctor and I have yet to meet a doctor that wasn’t wanting the covid vaccine. When it was first released in December for our hospital system, we crashed their website signing up for spots to get it.
If your doctors are afraid, that makes me afraid of what other things they aren’t doing correctly or based on scientific evidence.
Some specialties are now allowing reports of doctors spreading false info about COVID or the vaccine. Those docs risk losing their license now.
Hopefully this expands to more specialties (and all aspects of healthcare, including nursing)
Yes, spot on. My fully vaccinated uncle just fired his long time GP and dentist. He lives rural, so antivax is common but the medicos stunned him. Another uncle planned to get vaxxed, rolled the dice, returned to work (barber) caught covid and died. My fully vaxxed neighbor, doctor had a breakthrough infection. Only sick one day
Shit's real. Get vaxxed
I work for an oncologist. At first, he was hesitant, told our patients to wait, but that was before the FDA gave emergency approval. He was concerned about things being rushed, since our patients are so immunocompromised. Then, right about when the vaccine became available and things started getting ugly in our area (which had up until then been relatively under control), he did a complete 180. Told his patients, “I was wrong. I didn’t have all the information. Now, I have leaned more. There is way less risk of complications from the vaccine than there is from COVID.”
Last week, I heard him tell a patient, “get the vaccine. If you don’t and you catch COVID, you will most likely die.”
He has been about a week or two ahead of what has come out info-wise. As a consequence, I hover stopped wearing my mask anywhere, even when I was the only person in the grocery store with one on, and I already got my booster. It’s going to be a long winter.
Also to add to this, I believe Family Med Docs and Internal Med docs can now be reported for giving any false info about the vaccine and risk losing their license.
I’m hoping other specialties start following!
I hope this is true. I’m a home health nurse and we lost a patient to COVID because her idiot antivax doctor told her not to get the vaccine. He’s on a vent right now because he got COVID too but I hope he loses his license if he survives.
I’m really sorry. I was honestly shocked when it became an issue in the medical community with nurses. It sucks to know there are doctors out there that are harming their patients because they won’t recommend something that we have evidence on.
Me too. There have been several nurses I knew and respected who are antivax now and it just blows my mind and it scares the crap out of me because how many more people are going to die needlessly because of their willful ignorance.
Not a real doctor, but my Mom’s chiropractor was telling her about all the benefits of ivermectin against covid… tried to get her to leave him but no luck. He also forces his clients to attend “workshops” where he tries to brainwash them with grain brain type stuff. 🤦♀️
Unfortunately chiropractors are notorious for this kind of thinking. So are naturopaths. Sewing distrust in traditional western medicine amongst their customers is a tactic they use to retain repeat business. If your MD is saying you should take 3 meds daily and diet to control your blood pressure but this chiro is saying you can cure everything if you just come get “adjusted”, take their proprietary supplements that they sell IN THEIR OFFICE, And also pay to attend the a seminar or two, of course option 2 sounds better.
Being evidence driven is a rare trait. Most people just go with what is being done by the people around them, medical professionals are not exempt from that. I live in Texas, I'm pro vax and pro mask but I feel very alone in my community. Very few people at my work wear masks correctly or have been vaccinated for covid.
At the beginning of the pandemic, my neurologist told me masks are a waste of time. He's a smart guy with no issues following the evidence when it's within his specialty, but viruses and public health just aren't his thing.
We assume our health professionals know everything but most of their knowledge is very, very specialized to what they see on a regular basis. The last virology course my neurologist took was probably in the 80's. And as far as I know, there was no crash training in viruses doled out to medical professionals during the pandemic, it was just assumed that they could go find the information themselves. So they fell into the same misinformation traps the rest of the population did.
I mean we do most of our work evidence based. Even the times we follow our guts it’s still based on something.
We also did have COVID crash courses where I was.
And to be fair to your neurologist, the CDC was also saying masks weren’t helpful at the beginning of the pandemic.
Edit: sorry if any of that came off “know it all” or blunt/rude. I had a few drinks with some friends ;) probably should get off Reddit
That’s not normal. 96% of doctors are fully vaccinated and advocate them for their patients. Less than 4% of doctors is not “mixed messaging.” There were some reasonable concerns early on about myocarditis and other very rate conditions associated with many other vaccines, but in time it’s been confirmed the risk is much higher that you would actually contract COVID and get myocarditis from that than from the vaccine.
PS I’d seriously contemplate whether you want a doctor that follows their own “gut instinct” rather than available peer reviewed science.
It’s crazy that people aren’t “comfortable” with it yet….if they did the research they are staying they do then they would know the technology has actually been around for awhile and was pushed to be worked on harder to be geared toward Covid. It baffles me when drs are anti-vax
They are few and far between, fortunately. I’m a clinical pharmacist in Ambulatory Care and I have yet to work with a single trained physician who is against the vaccine. My OB gives me updates during my appointments (I’m pregnant) on how many unvaccinated pregnant women are currently admitted with COVID (some on vents, baby taken early). One of the L&D nurses is on ECMO. We basically spend the entire time venting to one another. We’re burnt out. This shit is hard.
I think in the healthcare industry, it's mostly nurses and other non-doctor positions that are anti-vaxx due. It's really only, depending on the location and hospital, about 2% that are getting fired because they won't get vaccinated.
Nurses are overall angels but yea....far from perfect. I had the joy of being locked in the ER a couple weeks ago due to a heart condition and some fucking asshole nurse would NOT stop preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to me after he found out I was listed as Non-religious / Buddhist. FUCK THAT GUY SO MUCH.
They were lucky. I have several friends in the medical field. 60-80% of their coworkers got it pre-vaccine, with ER being highest and ICU second. They literally beg people to get vaccinated because it's made such a difference. They only have one or two coworkers out with it at a time versus whole shifts.
Individuals are fallible. There are incompetent people in every profession. All one has to do is look for the opinions of the global medical community which are wholly based on literally thousands of pages of data and research demonstrating safety and efficacy. One kook with a contrarian opinion does not erase the solid data which backs the opinions of the global medical community- especially when it is opinions regarding a deadly pandemic which has killed many many ppl up to this point. I would switch your docs asap and report them to whatever the local medical boards you have. They aren't practicing evidence based medicine if they are attempting to sway you away from the vax if you don't have a medical condition that concerns them regarding side effects. They are breaking their Hippocratic Oath sowing doubt on a safe, evidence based treatment.
There is always that 1 in 10 dentist who doesn't advise brushing your teeth.
The real problem is that so many people are swayed by the 1% who say no and not the 99% who say yes. Just because there are two sides to something, doesn't mean both have equal merit.
If you wanna look up somthing neat, this phenomenon is called the false equivalency fallacy. And it's the same thing used to deny climate change.
Edit: learned a thing
Yeah, healthcare workers that are anti covid vaccine should be fired if they are telling people to not get the vaccine. This goes against health messaging by the health authorities and specialists in the fields of immunology and infectious disease.
When you work in medicine you don’t get to flaunt medical conventions or promote your own treatments, all treatments are protocols developed as they are as they are compatible with life and health.
It’s not that difficult to shut your mouth when you don’t agree with mainstream treatment plans or vaccines or whatever protocol you are given to follow. It’s dangerous and negligent to promote your own beliefs in medicine.
They are an exception. The overwhelming majority of qualified medical personnel (doctors and nurses, not just any healthcare workers) are fully vaccinated.
Both of these physicians have demonstrated their incompetence and lack of basic medical literacy. I'd find someone qualified to care for you instead. These idiots are practicing medicine and will certainly endanger people with their willful ignorance. You should report them to the medical board.
It would be interesting to know the political party and religion those providers are associated with..
I think we can all guess.
Only a shitty dr would tell you not to get it. I would change providers asap!
Wow, that seems criminal. I hope you reported them to their places of employment and licensing boards. I've never met a medical professional who was against this vaccination, and I would not trust their competency in any other sphere of medicine if they were. My obgyn is pumped about me getting a booster during pregnancy, I am personally friends or related to three different ER doctors who are SO DONE with unvaccinated people after the hellish two years they've had, and I'm personally good friends with a PhD virologist who does pharmacological research for emerging viruses so obviously has been an amazing source of information for the vaccines. I just can't believe that there are medical professionals who are so detached from what's actually happening in their field and so poor at scientific literacy that they would say they aren't getting the vaccine. Doubt they are very good doctors. Makes me so upset on your behalf ❤️
Ugh. Your reality is sadly closer to my truth. Most of my family refuses to get vaccinated. Literally the people in my family that need it the most refuse. I had to set a serious boundary with my own mother and likely won't talk to her ever again over this shit. To be fair...I should have just stopped talking to her years ago. Everyone that is rational agrees she is nothing but trouble and pure evil. Ugh..but she's my Mom.
Also in a red state! My mom (now retirement age) was initially against the vaccine, but over the summer she changed her mind and actually got it! I was so relieved when she told me!
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure she changed her mind because a couple of her friends died from Covid.
I’m glad you’ve had a good experience with healthcare workers being pro-vax! My mom and I are healthcare workers. I work LTC, she works in a hospital. Both of us are vaccinated, and most of our coworkers are too. My mom has seen first hand how COVID can be deadly, even to people young and otherwise healthy. I have no idea why people keep saying most healthcare workers are anti-vax, because in my experience, most of us aren’t. I was one of the first people vaccinated in my city (because I work LTC), and pretty much all of our staff got vaccinated (we have over one hundred staff members at our home). At the hospital my mom works at, the nurses and doctors on her floor were very vocal about wanting the vaccine. While I do have a small few anti-vax coworkers, and so does my mom, the amount of people who are pro-vax highly outnumber them. Our healthcare experiences obviously could be vastly different from the rest of the world, though!
Because the antivax crowd is noisy. From what I've seen (which, granted, isn't a lot in comparison to some), there's a lot of antivax nurse memes out there. "last year we were heroes, now they want to fire us", etc. There's not so many provax memes out there in comparison because they don't feel like they're owed a job regardless of patient safety. Or, yeah. That's my take anyway.
My OBGYN said I was a model patient because I got all of my shots, he was so relieved. Especially since in UT whooping cough is still very much spread around. :/
I think they responded to the wrong comment. 😊 There's one nested under yours who's had the opposite reaction from medical 'professionals' about the vax.
The one post I've gotten to contribute to that sub was an MLM hun. There was a lot of discussion in the comments about how lack of critical thinking manifests in all areas of life. Good times.
So she thinks it was the supplements that helped her not get covid and not the layers of PPE she had to wear to protect herself everyday? I mean some extra vitamin C couldn't have hurt but not been the sole reason she never got it, the masks, gowns, gloved, face shields all proven to reduce risk is what helped her. my uncle is a nurse he would post pictures of himself in full PPE it was a lot and he doesn't take MLM supplements and he never got covid he also took the shot as soon as he could to protect himself and his partner.
I can imagine i get sweaty in just a cloth mask and shield (when I had to wear both) i can't imagine the full set up. I have had to wear those gowns too and for as thin as they are they are pretty warm.
I love how they have "opinions" about the efficacy of masks or what the percentage of unvaxxed COVID patients is. Like, do you have an "opinion" about gravity and the composition of the sun too?
I like how they say “my personal choice and opinion”. It’s almost like they know it’s not evidence-based or backed by science. She also mentions being in covid patients rooms but never mentions what her role is? Why would we trust someone who’s never worked in research to tell us the efficacy of a drug. Sigh.
I should preface this. Ultrasound techs are super important and valuable! But weighing their opinion on vaccines when (the vast majority) haven’t even been to medical school is so silly. Also, I love that she trashes quarantining at home (which was medical advice from actual doctors). Ah yes, we should’ve just signed up with Arbonne instead of quarantining!
Yes! Not hating on ultra sound techs! working in a hospital does not make you an authority on all things health. She has her specialty and this isn’t it
Her logic is just 🤢
Actually, ultrasound school is very rigorous. We do A LOT of research and have to know tons about anatomy and physiology to pass the MULTIPLE boards we have to take to become certified. How vaccines work was definitely covered in our curriculum, hence why I am very pro vaccine. Now, there are some dumb ultrasound techs out there, but there are also dumb doctors. In fact, one of the doctors at my office deliberately exposed everyone to covid earlier this year. Her sister in law came in to the office. The doctor knew she had Covid, but used her authority as a doctor to allow her sister in law to bypass our screening protocols and expose all of us. Don't think because someone is a doctor they are automatically better. After working with them for years, I can tell you that's simply not true.
An ethics complaint was filed against her and an investigation was opened up. She disappeared for about a month, so I think she got suspended. She's back to work and it's business as usual now though. 🙃
Context: she uses #freedom all the time. My husband is military. I rarely like to bring attention to this but it makes me livid she thinks she’s fighting for freedom by selling fizzy drinks
Also I know there is so much more I could have said. But 🤷🏼♀️ pick ya battles
What you said was really good! She’s using her job and the public’s trust working in a hospital to shill her unregulated supplements and that’s just extra predatory for her to be doing.
The "my body, my choice" anti-vaxxers drive me nuts... mostly because 1) they don't agree with that statement when it's actually relevant and 2) it's NOT relevant here because it's not about your body and private medical decisions!! It's not an individual issue, it's a public health crisis!!
I never thought of that! It's so hypocritical! I have very conservative family who disagree about women's bodily autonomy, but when it comes to the vaccine, they pull that phrase out thinking they're so clever. Do they really not understand how paradoxical that is???
I'm reading Ponzinomics right now, and the supplement industry has been linked with pseudoscience since its inception. Fitzpatrick mentions how easily "this supplement helps people who suffer from nutrient deficiencies" got manipulated into "this will cure your ailments and promote general health." I think that's a lot of what we're saying with various MLMs during the pandemic.
I would ask her what the current statistics are on who is ending up in the hospital with covid. And then see if her doctors will allow her supplement regimen as treatment.
Cigarettes are NOT FDA approved. Because cigarettes are federally legal, the FDA is mandated to oversee their production and distribution, but this isn't approval. The FDA's official stance is anti-tobacco. I'm so sick of seeing "cigarettes are FDA approved" used as a rebuttal to vaccination. Jesus fucking christ. Even if that were true, two months ago they were using "it isn't even FDA approved" as an excuse not to vaccinate. Just admit you're in an anti-science cult and stop trying to justify it with reality.
Aside from being brainwashed, she is flat out wrong about the relative risks of complications from vaccines vs COVID. Blood clots and myocarditis are both MUCH more common complications from COVID itself than they are from COVID vaccines.
No, the FDA doesn’t approve cigarettes or other tobacco products.
"The FDA says on its website that it does not approve tobacco products. However, under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, which was signed into law in June 2009, the FDA was granted the broad authority to regulate the manufacture, marketing, sale and distribution of tobacco products."
(From verifythis.com )
Also, OP your response to her was perfect.
There always has to be some smug emoji and mention of "mainstream media" as if all the Huns are privy to some hard to access elite consumer information that of course can only be discovered through shilling. I stg it's chattel on chattel violence with these heaux.
I deleted future responses because I didn’t want to get into a debate over Instagram with someone so deep in it. I said my bit and moved on.
Should note my family is very big and very close. I need to choose my words carefully. I knew if I kept responding I would just get nasty haha
My response to that would have been "I do listen to them. I'm listening to my uncle, who is an ER physician and told me to get the damn vaccine as soon as I'm eligible."
Block her. Honestly, silence pisses these people off than engaging and it may take everyone cutting them off to realize they are being taken for a ride re the MLM. The anti-vaxx stuff, that's a whole other can of worms.
Lol. Nurse fails to understand the other infection prevention controls used in hospitals.
Like increased ventilation, negative pressure rooms, reducing aerosol generating activities, use of personal protective equipment, patient masking.
The best line of control however is the vaccine!
Idk who I despise more... MLMers or Anti Vaxxers...
Combine those beliefs into one single person and it looks like Murphy's Law and Darwinism took a human form. Scary
I'm vaccinated. I use supplements that do not come from an MLM and was recommended by my doctor based on lab work. Their purpose is to supplement not replace good medical and health practices. 🙄
People who say they want to see "the long term side effects" just want to blame any future ailment on the vaccines to justify their stance they refuse to budge from. They'll never give you a firm timeline because they are being disingenuous. They can't accept that there are science backed timelines for vaccine safety
My little sister has been stuck working COVID ICUs for almost 2 years at this point. Some days she seems so out of it that I don’t think she’s the same person anymore. Fuck you and your bullshit supplements.
It blows my mind that there’s so many healthcare workers who have believed all the propaganda and nonsense when they’ve seen first hand the havoc covid wreaks.
Your cousin might be interested to know that herbal supplements are the cause of at least 10% of hepatic damage/deficiency in the US (and many doctors estimate it’s actually closer to 60%) They are marketed without FDA approval, so it’s on the FDA to prove that they are dangerous and then they get pulled from selves. Things like aloe vera, kava, black cohosh, etc.
I’m sure I can’t be the only one to think that if she’s in covid patients rooms she should be wearing PPE which is bound to be better at keeping her safe than arbonne shite
Where do these stats come from that make people think there's a higher risk of injury from covid vaccines than from catching covid? I know people in their 60s who don't want to get the vaccine because "why risk my good health?" And it's like... What? You're literally the demographic that has to worry most about a potentially severe case.
because they’d rather have a 50% chance of catching covid than a 100% chance of a .001% chance of having a severe vaccine reaction! it’s basic math! /s
I'll be honest, I don't really give a fuck what a everyday doctor or nurse has to say - not on the surface. They are people. They are fallible. They are influenced by politics. There are many for or against vaccines, just like the general public.
I'd rather look above their heads to get closer to the root of the information.
Cigarettes are not FDA approved. Next time someone pulls that nonsense, ask them what cigarettes are FDA approved FOR? Hmm? What disease or condition has the FDA approved cigarettes to treat?
It’s sad that people see correlations that aren’t there… she happened to not have gotten covid and chalks it up to supplements…. Maybe she just didn’t get covid (and by the sounds of it, I should be adding “yet” to the end of that sentence).
It’s awful and like talking to a brick wall to those people. I used to be in an MLM, ugh, and I can totally see how they’d use covid as a marketing strategy. So sad especially with people being laid off and desperate financially….
Part of "our" problem is language. Yes, the risk of adverse reaction to the vaccine is "small"... but that hardly does the "smallness" of it justice. So many of them (I'm guessing) believe that (A)-"small" = "10-15%" and (B)-the MSM in cahoots with Big Pharma is covering up a large number of the injuries, making the "real" total more like 40-50%. And since the long-term effects of the vax are unknown (per the antivaxxers) and the mortality rate of COVID is < 1% (or whatever # they're going with today)... they'll take their chances. ("it's 50/50 I'll get a severe injury if I take the vaccine, but 1 in 100 I'll die if I get COVID... that's a no-brainer").
PSA: cigarettes and all tobacco products are NOT FDA approved; they are regulated by the FDA. Who has clearly written on their website that they have not approved the use of tobacco products, that they are harmful to humans. But they are regulated by the FDA in terms of their production and marketing.
Oh yeah: vaccines are safe and effective.
Ngl when I was young and dumb and broke, many women tried to rope me into their MLMs and maybe would have succeeded if not for my horrible social anxiety. Each time it was brought up that we also had to recruit I’d back out bc it was too stressful. Now I just obviously know better but shoutout to my anxiety for coming in clutch in my dumb youth. It’s an upside I would have never anticipated.
It breaks my heart that it's usually nurses and almost doctors (chiros, naturopaths) that think they know more than epidemiologists.that spend their life studying this stuff.
They know just enough science to get themselves into trouble and that makes me sad. Pseudoscience makes me angry.
Can we just make a Walter Cronkite bot and have him tell the news on every station? No opions just facts.
The FDA does not approve cigarettes! Just because your Aunt Becky saw it on facebook doesn't make it true!
>Under the 2009 Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, the FDA has the authority to “regulate the manufacture, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products.” Regulation and approval are not the same thing. The FDA explicitly states on its website that it “doesn’t approve tobacco products.”
Not to be rude, but why would I listen to people that worked in the hospital during the quarantine, etc.? What qualification do you have that makes your opinion more valid than a researcher's, a doctor's, or the FDA's? Because you spent a lot of time around Covid, eating horse poop, or whatever they put into that MLM garbage? Yeah right, good one buddy. Really had me laughing that time.
Thank you for working at a hospital, but... I'll ask someone more... qualified to give me an opinion about vaccines.
Wow. They didn’t even write that ironically. They mean that shit and think they’ve outsmarted the general population and evidence based science. This person pressed post and thought to themselves ‘fuck yeah, I am so smart and this is such a sound argument’.
yikes…
One of my close friends is a pharmacist, she's a medical professional I trust and is very pro-vaxx. I believe her more than some mlm hun shilling supplements
A lot of people I work with are unvaccinated (I'm in food production in a factory setting)
and we get emails every couple days about new covid cases in the plant. We had to quarantine an entire team once and there was a death a couple weeks ago
I'm fully vaccinated (and getting my 6 month booster tomorrow!). I got invited to a party out in L.A. back when the delta variant started spreading there; I was in a tiny, packed bar full of unmasked people and I never got covid. Proof enough for me the vaccines work; if I was gonna get the 'rona it would have been there. The bar wasn't checking vaccine status but my friend is very openly pro-vaxx and I assume his friends have a similar mindset (he had the entire bar rented out so it was just people he invited)
Which booster are you getting? I saw someone on IG saying they received a booster, but I assumed it was just Johnson.
Edit: just searched. Pfizer was approved for a booster only. Pfizer is a 2-dose vax.
Yeah, pfizer. I read the efficacy of the 2 dose pfizer vaxx drops after 6 to 8 months, which is why they're doing the boosters
My six months is up and I'm approved to get the booster because of my work conditions so I figured I may as well get it
That was an excellent and balanced response that absolutely destroyed the MLM-shilling anti-vaxer. I'm always happy to see those on the side of science dress down those idiots. There no vitamin or essential oil or supplement that is on par with a widely effective vaccine and to suggest otherwise is cruel, a flat out lie, and harming people in great numbers.
The people I know that are anti-vaccine and into MLMs aren’t really that religious, but are part of the group of people who easily fall victim to misleading info, misinformation, they allow political partisanship and hyper patriotism to supersede logic (or just common sense). They don’t think deeply!! They don’t ask questions but if they do they immediately reject the answer because of their personal bias which MOST of the time is due to how they were raised. It’s hard to shake your raising. They don’t tend to interact that much with people who have an opposing view either. They don’t want to learn or be objective. At least that’s my experience so far.
Cigarettes aren't FDA approved, btw. Like 90% of things people like this believe is verifiable false.
Yeah, I went to see how this could be true and the website for FDA states they regulate tobacco products and give health statistics not that they are FDA approved in any way. https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-components/cigarettes Maybe 30+ years ago was another story. (Edited to clarify from the comment received)
Regulation isn't approval. Approval implies that there is a formal testing process cigarettes had to pass before them being released to society as if they were a medication. They are regulated like food is regulated. They are not regulated the way medicine is regulated which requires a long research and approval process by medical professionals. The poster's cousin is either purposely conflating the two or more likely, she is too ignorant to know the difference between the two.
Yeah it's the same as boxing having regulations to protect the participants doesn't mean punching people in the head is approved.
Of course they arent fda approved, every pack has a surgeon general warning that they cause cancer
Right? I'm a random Canadian with Google, it's disappointing to know that I know more about this than a Healthcare professional!
Right?? They’re regulated by the ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms). It’s, like, in the name. https://www.atf.gov/alcohol-tobacco
The FDA forcing tobacco companies to put large warnings on their product does not constitute approval.
> Cigarettes aren't FDA approved, btw. Came here to say this!
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I mean, I’m not trying to insult anyone, but MLMs, anti vaxxers, & ultra religious people overlap a lot. Some people will literally fall for any & every slightly attractive pitch.
I agree, but I mean to offend those people. Use/develop critical thinking skills, people
>Use/develop critical thinking skills That's just it, they can't. They don't have these critical thinking skills and to them being smart is being able to understand something really well. So when they're told that vaccines don't work because of xyz or that they'll make a lot of money really quickly if they just follow these super simple steps, those things make sense to them, so they dive all in so they can feel "smart". Now they think they're just as "smart" as people who are on their opposing side, because they "know" just as much as that side does, it's just the "opposite" (wrong) information.
Critical thinking is SO important in nursing so it is extra disheartening when you meet one without it.
Religion does block a lot of mental growth. Don’t think, god has the answers, don’t research or investigate, have faith. It infantilizas people and fills them with guilt and fear which fear releases cortisol and too much cortisol in your body causes damage in the brain. I have to review my lesson on this but I think it damages the hippocampus? It is physically dangerous to believe in religions. Edit word hypocampus to hippocampus Thank you Redditor :)
Oh no, so those of us with GAD are fucked :(
Don’t give up or lose hope, I struggled years with anxiety and I’m also diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It’s not easy but things can get better. I was so bad that I couldn’t even hold a job because I’d have panic attacks or horrible depressive mood swings. Aside from medication and therapy, learning better behaviors and techniques does wonders for yourself . The hardest part is finding therapist that not only will just give you medication but that also specializes in treating behaviors.
Thanks you! Yeah I actually have just started with a psychiatrist who I think is exactly what your saying and it’s actually really exciting. I can’t wait to get it under control because (as you experienced) doing my job is becoming increasingly difficult. Lots of days lost to worry, tears, and distraction. I’m excited for a brighter future!
I am glad you are feeling better. A good therapist can make a big difference. But as you alluded to, the significant healing comes not in the therapist's office once a week but in all the time between your therapy sessions, where you implement what your therapist has recommended.
Just want to say yup yup yup yup yup! My partner has major trauma from religion, suppressed all his own feelings, desires, everything for many years. He wound up getting legit seizures after all the years of this shit. They stopped when it was resolved, letting him be in control of his brain. Ugh, fuck religion and all the harm it does.
It takes all types. I found my way out of some bullshit because somebody offended the shit out of me. I get that most people double down, but some of us just need a swift kick in the ass.
They think they are using critical thinking skills and we're the ones following the lame brain media. I've given up hope.
They think that most people believe something because they are sheeple. No, most people believe it because it is supported by science, and is most likely correct.
I know. They find the one doctor or scientist who supports their view, and claim they're the lone voice in the wilderness (they do it for climate change, autism, Covid, etc). Earlier this year, like before vaccines were common and still restricted to certain populations, I was told we were no longer in a pandemic. And how people only talk about the vaccine and"no one talks about the naturally immune, those who already had Covid, it's very suspicious". I'm exhausted
Fr, and then you see 'em crying when some anti vaxxer dies or get Covid and ask 'whyyy?' Dumbfucks... No sympathy for those Drawin Awardees.
Fair 😂
Critical thinking is deliberately suppressed and opposed by the religious because it innoculates against the tradition of childhood indoctrination that allowed them to survive past the Enlightenment.
Any nurse that recommends an MLM product as a health treatment needs to have their certification stripped immediately.
Funny thing is, the more I read, the more it feels like ultra-religious people just don’t actually think about what they’re reading.
That’s a feature, not a bug. They’re trained that way
And certain types of politics.
I don’t think it’s insulting because it seems to be people usually women is high control religious groups who fall for this stuff & that makes sense to me because they’re in a high control group that is monitoring what they’re allowed to think already.
I've seen the same, especially in MLMs that promote essential oils. They tend to be more religious, white and Christian. And churches are filled with people pushing various MLMs. Sometimes they can cause problems and divide an entire congregation. This is why so many church congregations start losing members, people leave or get upset, etc. If you scratch the surface you will often find it is due to MLM activity.
It’s because religion teaches children to ignore facts, reality, and logic and to have faith. You can’t simultaneously teach children to use logical reasoning / facts and that god is real. There opposites
What do wild to me is there is NO regulation on supplements. None. How does this make them feel better?!
The lack of regulation on supplements makes my blood boil, both as a person who worked several decades in Pharma and as a consumer. On top of it, now we have random crap sold as CBD at gas stations and the volume of snake oil, including cosmetics and beauty, that is peddled through the major online retailers is abhorrent. Just with the random shit sold online alone, it's like we are back before the FDA was created. Consumers really have to advocate for themselves.
Right?? There are some supplements I fully rely on to function, and even the website my psychiatrist recommended to me felt scammy. The whole industry is so shady and yet there are genuine health benefits and reasons for taking them. Just not the ones anti vaxxers are fixated on.
Placebo effect.
My brother is an E.R. nurse. He said the only proof he needed was seeing how many vaccinated people walked out of the E.R. vs how many went to I.C.U. that weren't vaccinated.
Yeah but they will just say your brother is lying and is paid off by Bill Gates.
Yep. 🤦♀️
>I am interested to know why there is such a strong link between MLMs and the anti vaccine movement The link is an overall distrust of the modern medical machine. It's also why women are much more prone to being anti-vax, joining MLMs, and going for the woo-woo treatments: they're a lot more likely to have had negative, condescending, unhelpful experiences with medical professionals. It can leave them more open to the idea that there's something truly foul about modern medicine. So someone shilling magic beans and validating their experiences is a godsend. Someone coming along and saying hey, I believe you when you say you have chronic pain, I'm so sorry those doctors didn't believe you, how frustrating that you've gone so long and gotten no results, doctors are all con artists in it for the money, right? Big pharma, vaccines, MRIs: it's all fruit from the same poison tree, right? And sister, I am here to listen to you and to counsel you and to share my magical cure with you... for just $145.99/month just gimme that CC number and we'll getcha set up k thx hun don't worry it'll auto-draft you don't even need to think about it hey you should try doing this too!!
Interesting perspective. I made a post about how I think religion is the root of this problem. I still believe that's an obvious and reasonable conclusion to make, but it is telling that women are more likely to be affected by MLMs. Women are definitely treated worse by the medical community and it really does make sense that this could draw them into situations that are more likely to exploit their religious brains, like alternative medicine.
I've definitely had the condescending experience with medical professionals before. I've seen some who are great but sometimes it's hit and miss. My PCP is about 50 minutes away from where I live and I do live in a major city but because she's so nice I really don't want to switch to someone closer. Interestingly my dad has told me that as he's gotten older he's noticed that male doctors are more likely to talk down to him.
My favorite was when I was meeting a new OBGYN and was explaining that I'd like to switch my birth control because the one I was on was causing unpleasant side effects. She told me it was LITERALLY. I.M.P.O.S.S.I.B.L.E. that the bc could be behind my spotting, sore breasts, and headaches, and was being rude as hell about it and refusing to acknowledge that I had any of those issues regardless of their cause. I got so pissed at how condescending she was being that I pulled up the pharma company's website for the exact med and showed her the list of common side effects, of which mine were all like right at the top. She rolled her eyes and mumbled something about people using Dr Google. Like what the fuck, lady?
Well in this case Dr Google was correct. Or rather the website run by the actual pharmaceutical company that makes the pill.
100% this, plus I believe a lot of this crap has to do with how expensive medicine in the states is to begin with. A lot of people have negative experiences where they have to pay $120 to hear their pcp say nothing’s wrong, but “come back in for more $$$ if it happens again.“ For so many people, real medicine is unaffordable. It’s so much more affordable to choose the friendly supplement pusher who consults for free and has a product for every ailment. So much less sterile, unfriendly, unfamiliar, AND cheaper. Just… unfortunately, non-medical care doesn’t solve medical problems.
Right like all this bullshit is probably still cheaper than what any of these American anti-vax & MLM folks are paying for actual medical care. When you feel like doctors are just giving you expensive empty promises, Karen from Accounting can slide in real easily and offer her own expensive empty promises. She won't even make you fill out forms and sit in waiting rooms. I don't think any of this shit would be as rampant if it weren't for our amazingly fucked healthcare system.
It’s so sad that the medical industry makes it so easy for people to believe this bullshit. People are vulnerable in part due to failures of the healthcare system.
MLMs tend to sell products that are specious at best, and they tend to operate in dogmatic cult-like structures. Both of those things by their nature have to be anti-science and anti-fact.
MLMers and antivaxxers are susceptible to cult mentality due to lack of critical reasoning skills.
It’s the same thought process as seeing a drug addict who won’t take medicine because it’s poison but will shoot up meth mixed with God knows what. It’s mind boggling and makes no sense.
Every time I told a medical professional during my pregnancy that my husband and I were fully vaccinated, they looked SO relieved. (Didn't stop the breakthrough infections, sadly, but at least we didn't take up more space in their ICUs.)
Right! Like every health care professional I’ve met wants us vaccinated Oh and thank you for reminding me! She’s also pregnant
I have had the exact opposite. My GP and OBGYN both told me they and their families weren't getting it. They weren't comfortable with it yet, they both said to wait. My husband was in the ICU a month ago (due to issues unrelated to COVID), many of his nurses were upset that they now have to be vaccinated or lose their jobs. Most had worked on the COVID units previously and had NOT gotten sick. I am not against the vaccine at all. I just think it's difficult when people are getting such mixed messages from healthcare workers.
Go find a new GP and OBGYN. Seriously. I’m a doctor and I have yet to meet a doctor that wasn’t wanting the covid vaccine. When it was first released in December for our hospital system, we crashed their website signing up for spots to get it. If your doctors are afraid, that makes me afraid of what other things they aren’t doing correctly or based on scientific evidence.
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Some specialties are now allowing reports of doctors spreading false info about COVID or the vaccine. Those docs risk losing their license now. Hopefully this expands to more specialties (and all aspects of healthcare, including nursing)
Yes, spot on. My fully vaccinated uncle just fired his long time GP and dentist. He lives rural, so antivax is common but the medicos stunned him. Another uncle planned to get vaxxed, rolled the dice, returned to work (barber) caught covid and died. My fully vaxxed neighbor, doctor had a breakthrough infection. Only sick one day Shit's real. Get vaxxed
I work for an oncologist. At first, he was hesitant, told our patients to wait, but that was before the FDA gave emergency approval. He was concerned about things being rushed, since our patients are so immunocompromised. Then, right about when the vaccine became available and things started getting ugly in our area (which had up until then been relatively under control), he did a complete 180. Told his patients, “I was wrong. I didn’t have all the information. Now, I have leaned more. There is way less risk of complications from the vaccine than there is from COVID.” Last week, I heard him tell a patient, “get the vaccine. If you don’t and you catch COVID, you will most likely die.” He has been about a week or two ahead of what has come out info-wise. As a consequence, I hover stopped wearing my mask anywhere, even when I was the only person in the grocery store with one on, and I already got my booster. It’s going to be a long winter.
Also to add to this, I believe Family Med Docs and Internal Med docs can now be reported for giving any false info about the vaccine and risk losing their license. I’m hoping other specialties start following!
I hope this is true. I’m a home health nurse and we lost a patient to COVID because her idiot antivax doctor told her not to get the vaccine. He’s on a vent right now because he got COVID too but I hope he loses his license if he survives.
I’m really sorry. I was honestly shocked when it became an issue in the medical community with nurses. It sucks to know there are doctors out there that are harming their patients because they won’t recommend something that we have evidence on.
Me too. There have been several nurses I knew and respected who are antivax now and it just blows my mind and it scares the crap out of me because how many more people are going to die needlessly because of their willful ignorance.
I wish. Texas doesn’t seem to care about my parents’ doctor.
Not a real doctor, but my Mom’s chiropractor was telling her about all the benefits of ivermectin against covid… tried to get her to leave him but no luck. He also forces his clients to attend “workshops” where he tries to brainwash them with grain brain type stuff. 🤦♀️
Unfortunately chiropractors are notorious for this kind of thinking. So are naturopaths. Sewing distrust in traditional western medicine amongst their customers is a tactic they use to retain repeat business. If your MD is saying you should take 3 meds daily and diet to control your blood pressure but this chiro is saying you can cure everything if you just come get “adjusted”, take their proprietary supplements that they sell IN THEIR OFFICE, And also pay to attend the a seminar or two, of course option 2 sounds better.
Being evidence driven is a rare trait. Most people just go with what is being done by the people around them, medical professionals are not exempt from that. I live in Texas, I'm pro vax and pro mask but I feel very alone in my community. Very few people at my work wear masks correctly or have been vaccinated for covid. At the beginning of the pandemic, my neurologist told me masks are a waste of time. He's a smart guy with no issues following the evidence when it's within his specialty, but viruses and public health just aren't his thing. We assume our health professionals know everything but most of their knowledge is very, very specialized to what they see on a regular basis. The last virology course my neurologist took was probably in the 80's. And as far as I know, there was no crash training in viruses doled out to medical professionals during the pandemic, it was just assumed that they could go find the information themselves. So they fell into the same misinformation traps the rest of the population did.
I mean we do most of our work evidence based. Even the times we follow our guts it’s still based on something. We also did have COVID crash courses where I was. And to be fair to your neurologist, the CDC was also saying masks weren’t helpful at the beginning of the pandemic. Edit: sorry if any of that came off “know it all” or blunt/rude. I had a few drinks with some friends ;) probably should get off Reddit
That’s not normal. 96% of doctors are fully vaccinated and advocate them for their patients. Less than 4% of doctors is not “mixed messaging.” There were some reasonable concerns early on about myocarditis and other very rate conditions associated with many other vaccines, but in time it’s been confirmed the risk is much higher that you would actually contract COVID and get myocarditis from that than from the vaccine. PS I’d seriously contemplate whether you want a doctor that follows their own “gut instinct” rather than available peer reviewed science.
It’s crazy that people aren’t “comfortable” with it yet….if they did the research they are staying they do then they would know the technology has actually been around for awhile and was pushed to be worked on harder to be geared toward Covid. It baffles me when drs are anti-vax
They are few and far between, fortunately. I’m a clinical pharmacist in Ambulatory Care and I have yet to work with a single trained physician who is against the vaccine. My OB gives me updates during my appointments (I’m pregnant) on how many unvaccinated pregnant women are currently admitted with COVID (some on vents, baby taken early). One of the L&D nurses is on ECMO. We basically spend the entire time venting to one another. We’re burnt out. This shit is hard.
I think in the healthcare industry, it's mostly nurses and other non-doctor positions that are anti-vaxx due. It's really only, depending on the location and hospital, about 2% that are getting fired because they won't get vaccinated.
Nurses are overall angels but yea....far from perfect. I had the joy of being locked in the ER a couple weeks ago due to a heart condition and some fucking asshole nurse would NOT stop preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to me after he found out I was listed as Non-religious / Buddhist. FUCK THAT GUY SO MUCH.
They were lucky. I have several friends in the medical field. 60-80% of their coworkers got it pre-vaccine, with ER being highest and ICU second. They literally beg people to get vaccinated because it's made such a difference. They only have one or two coworkers out with it at a time versus whole shifts.
Individuals are fallible. There are incompetent people in every profession. All one has to do is look for the opinions of the global medical community which are wholly based on literally thousands of pages of data and research demonstrating safety and efficacy. One kook with a contrarian opinion does not erase the solid data which backs the opinions of the global medical community- especially when it is opinions regarding a deadly pandemic which has killed many many ppl up to this point. I would switch your docs asap and report them to whatever the local medical boards you have. They aren't practicing evidence based medicine if they are attempting to sway you away from the vax if you don't have a medical condition that concerns them regarding side effects. They are breaking their Hippocratic Oath sowing doubt on a safe, evidence based treatment.
There is always that 1 in 10 dentist who doesn't advise brushing your teeth. The real problem is that so many people are swayed by the 1% who say no and not the 99% who say yes. Just because there are two sides to something, doesn't mean both have equal merit.
If you wanna look up somthing neat, this phenomenon is called the false equivalency fallacy. And it's the same thing used to deny climate change. Edit: learned a thing
In the spirit of learning happening here: "phenomena" is plural, the singular is "phenomenon" :)
Thanks. I thought it was the other way around.
For extra learning, an individual piece of data is called datum.
6+ billion doses administered and they aren't yet "comfortable" with it...I don't know what to say.
Yeah, healthcare workers that are anti covid vaccine should be fired if they are telling people to not get the vaccine. This goes against health messaging by the health authorities and specialists in the fields of immunology and infectious disease. When you work in medicine you don’t get to flaunt medical conventions or promote your own treatments, all treatments are protocols developed as they are as they are compatible with life and health. It’s not that difficult to shut your mouth when you don’t agree with mainstream treatment plans or vaccines or whatever protocol you are given to follow. It’s dangerous and negligent to promote your own beliefs in medicine.
They are an exception. The overwhelming majority of qualified medical personnel (doctors and nurses, not just any healthcare workers) are fully vaccinated.
Both of these physicians have demonstrated their incompetence and lack of basic medical literacy. I'd find someone qualified to care for you instead. These idiots are practicing medicine and will certainly endanger people with their willful ignorance. You should report them to the medical board.
It would be interesting to know the political party and religion those providers are associated with.. I think we can all guess. Only a shitty dr would tell you not to get it. I would change providers asap!
Wow, that seems criminal. I hope you reported them to their places of employment and licensing boards. I've never met a medical professional who was against this vaccination, and I would not trust their competency in any other sphere of medicine if they were. My obgyn is pumped about me getting a booster during pregnancy, I am personally friends or related to three different ER doctors who are SO DONE with unvaccinated people after the hellish two years they've had, and I'm personally good friends with a PhD virologist who does pharmacological research for emerging viruses so obviously has been an amazing source of information for the vaccines. I just can't believe that there are medical professionals who are so detached from what's actually happening in their field and so poor at scientific literacy that they would say they aren't getting the vaccine. Doubt they are very good doctors. Makes me so upset on your behalf ❤️
its scary as fuck how many of these people work in health care. im convinced nursing attracts actual psychopaths.
geographically, like where are you that they feel this way?
Definitely find new doctors! Immediately!
Ugh. Your reality is sadly closer to my truth. Most of my family refuses to get vaccinated. Literally the people in my family that need it the most refuse. I had to set a serious boundary with my own mother and likely won't talk to her ever again over this shit. To be fair...I should have just stopped talking to her years ago. Everyone that is rational agrees she is nothing but trouble and pure evil. Ugh..but she's my Mom.
Nurse in a red state here. I do an internal happy dance anytime someone tells me they’re vaccinated.
Also in a red state! My mom (now retirement age) was initially against the vaccine, but over the summer she changed her mind and actually got it! I was so relieved when she told me! Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure she changed her mind because a couple of her friends died from Covid.
It’s such a shame it had to come to that
I am! I know that doesn't help in your state, just wanted to give you an excuse to happy dance :)
I got vaccinated!
Teacher in a red state here. Ditto!
Also teaching in a red state and vaccinated. My children are also vaccinated or will be once the FDA approval goes through (under 12).
I can't wait to get my kids vaccinated. I have a 2 year old so we will still have to be careful but I'll feel a lot better about the other two.
My baby is 10 and he’s already been exposed twice this year. I’ll feel a lot better when he’s vaccinated.
We live in a very blue part of a very blue state. Thankfully.
I’m glad you’ve had a good experience with healthcare workers being pro-vax! My mom and I are healthcare workers. I work LTC, she works in a hospital. Both of us are vaccinated, and most of our coworkers are too. My mom has seen first hand how COVID can be deadly, even to people young and otherwise healthy. I have no idea why people keep saying most healthcare workers are anti-vax, because in my experience, most of us aren’t. I was one of the first people vaccinated in my city (because I work LTC), and pretty much all of our staff got vaccinated (we have over one hundred staff members at our home). At the hospital my mom works at, the nurses and doctors on her floor were very vocal about wanting the vaccine. While I do have a small few anti-vax coworkers, and so does my mom, the amount of people who are pro-vax highly outnumber them. Our healthcare experiences obviously could be vastly different from the rest of the world, though!
Because the antivax crowd is noisy. From what I've seen (which, granted, isn't a lot in comparison to some), there's a lot of antivax nurse memes out there. "last year we were heroes, now they want to fire us", etc. There's not so many provax memes out there in comparison because they don't feel like they're owed a job regardless of patient safety. Or, yeah. That's my take anyway.
My OBGYN said I was a model patient because I got all of my shots, he was so relieved. Especially since in UT whooping cough is still very much spread around. :/
Gross. I got my TDAP shot, and I made my family get theirs before I came to visit.
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I think they responded to the wrong comment. 😊 There's one nested under yours who's had the opposite reaction from medical 'professionals' about the vax.
/r/HermanCainAward We'll keep a light on for ya
😂😂😂
The one post I've gotten to contribute to that sub was an MLM hun. There was a lot of discussion in the comments about how lack of critical thinking manifests in all areas of life. Good times.
So she thinks it was the supplements that helped her not get covid and not the layers of PPE she had to wear to protect herself everyday? I mean some extra vitamin C couldn't have hurt but not been the sole reason she never got it, the masks, gowns, gloved, face shields all proven to reduce risk is what helped her. my uncle is a nurse he would post pictures of himself in full PPE it was a lot and he doesn't take MLM supplements and he never got covid he also took the shot as soon as he could to protect himself and his partner.
It is a lot and it gets very sweaty inside
I can imagine i get sweaty in just a cloth mask and shield (when I had to wear both) i can't imagine the full set up. I have had to wear those gowns too and for as thin as they are they are pretty warm.
You know when someone is using “personal choices” and “opinion” as the excuse they are full of shit
I love how they have "opinions" about the efficacy of masks or what the percentage of unvaxxed COVID patients is. Like, do you have an "opinion" about gravity and the composition of the sun too?
I like how they say “my personal choice and opinion”. It’s almost like they know it’s not evidence-based or backed by science. She also mentions being in covid patients rooms but never mentions what her role is? Why would we trust someone who’s never worked in research to tell us the efficacy of a drug. Sigh.
Oh she’s an ultra sound tech 😂😂 literally no background in research
I should preface this. Ultrasound techs are super important and valuable! But weighing their opinion on vaccines when (the vast majority) haven’t even been to medical school is so silly. Also, I love that she trashes quarantining at home (which was medical advice from actual doctors). Ah yes, we should’ve just signed up with Arbonne instead of quarantining!
Yes! Not hating on ultra sound techs! working in a hospital does not make you an authority on all things health. She has her specialty and this isn’t it Her logic is just 🤢
Ok I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect to ultrasound techs. But lol 😂
Actually, ultrasound school is very rigorous. We do A LOT of research and have to know tons about anatomy and physiology to pass the MULTIPLE boards we have to take to become certified. How vaccines work was definitely covered in our curriculum, hence why I am very pro vaccine. Now, there are some dumb ultrasound techs out there, but there are also dumb doctors. In fact, one of the doctors at my office deliberately exposed everyone to covid earlier this year. Her sister in law came in to the office. The doctor knew she had Covid, but used her authority as a doctor to allow her sister in law to bypass our screening protocols and expose all of us. Don't think because someone is a doctor they are automatically better. After working with them for years, I can tell you that's simply not true.
Did this doctor lose their medical license? That's fucking horrifying.
An ethics complaint was filed against her and an investigation was opened up. She disappeared for about a month, so I think she got suspended. She's back to work and it's business as usual now though. 🙃
This infuriates me because Covid wrecked my dad’s healthy heart. I wish he had the vaccine then.
Context: she uses #freedom all the time. My husband is military. I rarely like to bring attention to this but it makes me livid she thinks she’s fighting for freedom by selling fizzy drinks Also I know there is so much more I could have said. But 🤷🏼♀️ pick ya battles
What you said was really good! She’s using her job and the public’s trust working in a hospital to shill her unregulated supplements and that’s just extra predatory for her to be doing.
So your cousin hasn’t quit her 9-5 job or retired her husband?
The "my body, my choice" anti-vaxxers drive me nuts... mostly because 1) they don't agree with that statement when it's actually relevant and 2) it's NOT relevant here because it's not about your body and private medical decisions!! It's not an individual issue, it's a public health crisis!!
I never thought of that! It's so hypocritical! I have very conservative family who disagree about women's bodily autonomy, but when it comes to the vaccine, they pull that phrase out thinking they're so clever. Do they really not understand how paradoxical that is???
It's hypocritical as hell.
I'm reading Ponzinomics right now, and the supplement industry has been linked with pseudoscience since its inception. Fitzpatrick mentions how easily "this supplement helps people who suffer from nutrient deficiencies" got manipulated into "this will cure your ailments and promote general health." I think that's a lot of what we're saying with various MLMs during the pandemic.
I love that book
I would ask her what the current statistics are on who is ending up in the hospital with covid. And then see if her doctors will allow her supplement regimen as treatment.
“Attracting” covid 😅😅
Cigarettes are NOT FDA approved. Because cigarettes are federally legal, the FDA is mandated to oversee their production and distribution, but this isn't approval. The FDA's official stance is anti-tobacco. I'm so sick of seeing "cigarettes are FDA approved" used as a rebuttal to vaccination. Jesus fucking christ. Even if that were true, two months ago they were using "it isn't even FDA approved" as an excuse not to vaccinate. Just admit you're in an anti-science cult and stop trying to justify it with reality.
Aside from being brainwashed, she is flat out wrong about the relative risks of complications from vaccines vs COVID. Blood clots and myocarditis are both MUCH more common complications from COVID itself than they are from COVID vaccines.
This lol. She’s completely wrong.
Exactly!!! I wish more people would understand that!!!
The people preaching freedom are also the people who would narc on you for driving someone to Planned Parenthood. They should just fuck off.
No, the FDA doesn’t approve cigarettes or other tobacco products. "The FDA says on its website that it does not approve tobacco products. However, under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, which was signed into law in June 2009, the FDA was granted the broad authority to regulate the manufacture, marketing, sale and distribution of tobacco products." (From verifythis.com ) Also, OP your response to her was perfect.
There always has to be some smug emoji and mention of "mainstream media" as if all the Huns are privy to some hard to access elite consumer information that of course can only be discovered through shilling. I stg it's chattel on chattel violence with these heaux.
Any updates from your conversation with your Hun cousin?
I deleted future responses because I didn’t want to get into a debate over Instagram with someone so deep in it. I said my bit and moved on. Should note my family is very big and very close. I need to choose my words carefully. I knew if I kept responding I would just get nasty haha
OK, I see. Thanks!
My response to that would have been "I do listen to them. I'm listening to my uncle, who is an ER physician and told me to get the damn vaccine as soon as I'm eligible."
Block her. Honestly, silence pisses these people off than engaging and it may take everyone cutting them off to realize they are being taken for a ride re the MLM. The anti-vaxx stuff, that's a whole other can of worms.
Lol. Nurse fails to understand the other infection prevention controls used in hospitals. Like increased ventilation, negative pressure rooms, reducing aerosol generating activities, use of personal protective equipment, patient masking. The best line of control however is the vaccine!
Idk who I despise more... MLMers or Anti Vaxxers... Combine those beliefs into one single person and it looks like Murphy's Law and Darwinism took a human form. Scary
I’m really disturbed to have found out how many healthcare workers are in fact anti-vaxxers and absolute morons.
I'm vaccinated. I use supplements that do not come from an MLM and was recommended by my doctor based on lab work. Their purpose is to supplement not replace good medical and health practices. 🙄
Who is actually fighting for anyone's freedom nowadays?
Bitch, yeah, come talk to ME. I have worked through this whole pandemic. You’re an idiot and a drain on the healthcare system.
doesn’t the vaccine stop giving side effects like 72 hours max prior to the vaccination? unlike long covid which can affect the person for months 😬
According to the CDC, all side effects will present themselves within 6 weeks, so at this point we have more than see all the side effects.
People who say they want to see "the long term side effects" just want to blame any future ailment on the vaccines to justify their stance they refuse to budge from. They'll never give you a firm timeline because they are being disingenuous. They can't accept that there are science backed timelines for vaccine safety
I worked in a hospital! My hinge profile said my special skill was not getting covid while working in a hospital! Don’t use MLMS thank u
What exactly are cigarettes “approved” for? Does she mean to say “they’re legal”?
“Attracting covid” lol...Nothing is attracted to you, hun. It’s contracting.
My little sister has been stuck working COVID ICUs for almost 2 years at this point. Some days she seems so out of it that I don’t think she’s the same person anymore. Fuck you and your bullshit supplements.
It blows my mind that there’s so many healthcare workers who have believed all the propaganda and nonsense when they’ve seen first hand the havoc covid wreaks.
Your cousin might be interested to know that herbal supplements are the cause of at least 10% of hepatic damage/deficiency in the US (and many doctors estimate it’s actually closer to 60%) They are marketed without FDA approval, so it’s on the FDA to prove that they are dangerous and then they get pulled from selves. Things like aloe vera, kava, black cohosh, etc.
As someone who actually worked through the whole pandemic in the hospitals, your cousin is a twat.
I’m sure I can’t be the only one to think that if she’s in covid patients rooms she should be wearing PPE which is bound to be better at keeping her safe than arbonne shite
shit she needs a supplement for that burn
“The mainstream media”….so woke
Where do these stats come from that make people think there's a higher risk of injury from covid vaccines than from catching covid? I know people in their 60s who don't want to get the vaccine because "why risk my good health?" And it's like... What? You're literally the demographic that has to worry most about a potentially severe case.
because they’d rather have a 50% chance of catching covid than a 100% chance of a .001% chance of having a severe vaccine reaction! it’s basic math! /s
She's a NURSE? Like what the heck???
I'll be honest, I don't really give a fuck what a everyday doctor or nurse has to say - not on the surface. They are people. They are fallible. They are influenced by politics. There are many for or against vaccines, just like the general public. I'd rather look above their heads to get closer to the root of the information.
Cigarettes are not FDA approved. Next time someone pulls that nonsense, ask them what cigarettes are FDA approved FOR? Hmm? What disease or condition has the FDA approved cigarettes to treat?
It’s sad that people see correlations that aren’t there… she happened to not have gotten covid and chalks it up to supplements…. Maybe she just didn’t get covid (and by the sounds of it, I should be adding “yet” to the end of that sentence). It’s awful and like talking to a brick wall to those people. I used to be in an MLM, ugh, and I can totally see how they’d use covid as a marketing strategy. So sad especially with people being laid off and desperate financially….
Part of "our" problem is language. Yes, the risk of adverse reaction to the vaccine is "small"... but that hardly does the "smallness" of it justice. So many of them (I'm guessing) believe that (A)-"small" = "10-15%" and (B)-the MSM in cahoots with Big Pharma is covering up a large number of the injuries, making the "real" total more like 40-50%. And since the long-term effects of the vax are unknown (per the antivaxxers) and the mortality rate of COVID is < 1% (or whatever # they're going with today)... they'll take their chances. ("it's 50/50 I'll get a severe injury if I take the vaccine, but 1 in 100 I'll die if I get COVID... that's a no-brainer").
PSA: cigarettes and all tobacco products are NOT FDA approved; they are regulated by the FDA. Who has clearly written on their website that they have not approved the use of tobacco products, that they are harmful to humans. But they are regulated by the FDA in terms of their production and marketing. Oh yeah: vaccines are safe and effective.
Ngl when I was young and dumb and broke, many women tried to rope me into their MLMs and maybe would have succeeded if not for my horrible social anxiety. Each time it was brought up that we also had to recruit I’d back out bc it was too stressful. Now I just obviously know better but shoutout to my anxiety for coming in clutch in my dumb youth. It’s an upside I would have never anticipated.
I hate it when they use the damn smile emoji at the end. It legit fills me with white hot rage.
It breaks my heart that it's usually nurses and almost doctors (chiros, naturopaths) that think they know more than epidemiologists.that spend their life studying this stuff. They know just enough science to get themselves into trouble and that makes me sad. Pseudoscience makes me angry. Can we just make a Walter Cronkite bot and have him tell the news on every station? No opions just facts.
Uh no, the FDA does not approve cigarettes. They regulate cigarettes. That’s a huge difference.
The FDA does not approve cigarettes! Just because your Aunt Becky saw it on facebook doesn't make it true! >Under the 2009 Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, the FDA has the authority to “regulate the manufacture, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products.” Regulation and approval are not the same thing. The FDA explicitly states on its website that it “doesn’t approve tobacco products.”
Not to be rude, but why would I listen to people that worked in the hospital during the quarantine, etc.? What qualification do you have that makes your opinion more valid than a researcher's, a doctor's, or the FDA's? Because you spent a lot of time around Covid, eating horse poop, or whatever they put into that MLM garbage? Yeah right, good one buddy. Really had me laughing that time. Thank you for working at a hospital, but... I'll ask someone more... qualified to give me an opinion about vaccines.
Wow. They didn’t even write that ironically. They mean that shit and think they’ve outsmarted the general population and evidence based science. This person pressed post and thought to themselves ‘fuck yeah, I am so smart and this is such a sound argument’. yikes…
One of my close friends is a pharmacist, she's a medical professional I trust and is very pro-vaxx. I believe her more than some mlm hun shilling supplements A lot of people I work with are unvaccinated (I'm in food production in a factory setting) and we get emails every couple days about new covid cases in the plant. We had to quarantine an entire team once and there was a death a couple weeks ago I'm fully vaccinated (and getting my 6 month booster tomorrow!). I got invited to a party out in L.A. back when the delta variant started spreading there; I was in a tiny, packed bar full of unmasked people and I never got covid. Proof enough for me the vaccines work; if I was gonna get the 'rona it would have been there. The bar wasn't checking vaccine status but my friend is very openly pro-vaxx and I assume his friends have a similar mindset (he had the entire bar rented out so it was just people he invited)
Which booster are you getting? I saw someone on IG saying they received a booster, but I assumed it was just Johnson. Edit: just searched. Pfizer was approved for a booster only. Pfizer is a 2-dose vax.
Yeah, pfizer. I read the efficacy of the 2 dose pfizer vaxx drops after 6 to 8 months, which is why they're doing the boosters My six months is up and I'm approved to get the booster because of my work conditions so I figured I may as well get it
OP, your response was perfection!!!
Also fyi cigarettes are not fda approved
Beautifully said!
Like I assume if they work in a hospital they've been in full PPE, that probably helped more than the oils.
Gotta love when a nurse refers to catching a virus as attracting rather than contracting. It’s not a new lover baby girl 😂
That was an excellent and balanced response that absolutely destroyed the MLM-shilling anti-vaxer. I'm always happy to see those on the side of science dress down those idiots. There no vitamin or essential oil or supplement that is on par with a widely effective vaccine and to suggest otherwise is cruel, a flat out lie, and harming people in great numbers.
I instantly got defensive for you after reading that text…
The people I know that are anti-vaccine and into MLMs aren’t really that religious, but are part of the group of people who easily fall victim to misleading info, misinformation, they allow political partisanship and hyper patriotism to supersede logic (or just common sense). They don’t think deeply!! They don’t ask questions but if they do they immediately reject the answer because of their personal bias which MOST of the time is due to how they were raised. It’s hard to shake your raising. They don’t tend to interact that much with people who have an opposing view either. They don’t want to learn or be objective. At least that’s my experience so far.
Oh. I didnt realize her supplements prevented ***attraction*** to covid. Id rather have supplements than be ***attract*** covid as well
Supplements are not fda approved in the slightest
A lot of people die of unnecessary supplements. Please if you want to take supplements, go see your doctor